Morihiro Saito often said something similar about "high fall training" (tobu ukemi) with Shiho Nage. It was used for demo only. He often said "Morihei Ueshiba felt the best way to train Shiho Nage was to control uke all the way to the ground." Yes, Shiho Nage is not meant to be an immobilizing pinning technique like Ikkyo - Hachikyo series. Tobu ukemi was not commonly used at the Iwama dojo daily training. It was all about learning how to break the balance and control uke. Tobu ukemi was only used if we had the room and were practicing the speed of a throw. Morihiro Saito often said daily training (of techniques) should not be about ukemi. He once stopped the class and scolded a couple for making "tobu ukemi" their emphasis.
Thank you! Great comment. I have also seen Saito sensei in seminar explaining that- shiho nage must be aplied strongly- while the throwing should be applied lightly. This is correct, traditional practice. Also sensei advised never to assume that you mastered the technique, he said it took him many years to realise he was doing certain aspect of shiho nage not right.
@@MARIUSVL In the mid 70's when I was uchi-deshi with Saito Sensei, he came up with this method of training. "The blend is strict and the throw is soft." It was drummed into our DNA to train this way. Previously the training in Iwama was not like that. As you stated in your video, there were a few situations in Japanese University Aikido Clubs where students were getting injured and in one case, death. If I recall correctly the report showed Aikido to have the highest rate of injuries compared to other popular Martial Arts. This disturbed Saito Sensei a lot and he re-thought his training method. He always stated training should be safe and for the young and old. During my days we were shown and practice may server/ deadly accepts of a techniques, but always with the consideration of safety and control, so no one got injured. People only got injured if they were sloppy, careless and didn't follow training instructions. And they would be severely scolded. I recently heard Kano Sensei took out certain wrist, arm and other joint locks out of Judo dating back to 1899, because they were deemed to dangerous during competition and free sparing. In Aikido we can still practice those locks, even spinal and neck because we kept the training in a Kata formate. p.s... Stepping directly into omote shiho nage was a pre-war form. Stepping off the line at 90 degree was something Ueshiba started in the Iwama days. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Pre-War having the speed but can be blocked by a stronger uke. Post-War's 90 degree + angle is an advantage for a weaker nage and teaches clearing the line of attack, but is slower. The way we practiced 95% of the time was the Post-War way. But it was meant to teach basic principles of angles, and not meant to be the only expression. How it is applied, depending on the situation, falls along the full spectrum of Pre-War and Post-War's movement. What Ueshiba and Saito Sensei left is not set in stone, but ideas for further self discovery and evolution. Great analyses of the old photos. Keep up the exploration.
@@jayim7996 It is always a pleasure to interact with an experienced old-time practitioner, sempai, who was actually there training on the mats of Iwama dojo. Thank you for your lengthy, insightful comment. I feel I could elaborate some more on this topic. So, safety in training is without a doubt important, but injuries cannot be totally avoided, only minimised. That's why I am advocating dismissing dangerous and totally unnecessary practises. Saito sensei might have improved safety in training, as you have mentioned, but he never stopped teaching and practising taking tobu ukemi where it was totally unnecessary. In Iwama, rough training was common; showing off strength was not advised but not forbidden either, especially amongst strong foreigners who trained there. I respectfully have to disagree with you on this point, though, that stepping off the line in shiho nage from gyaku hanmi was something introduced by the Founder during the postwar era. Saito sensei was pretty much the only direct disciple of O sensei who practised shiho nage like that. All the other greats from the post-war era, like Isoyama, Tada, Tamura, Abe, and Hikitsuchi, had been practising shiho nage in the so-called pre-war way. This can be proved rather easily, but I excluded providing evidence for every point, because my video had already expanded to the 20-minute mark. It takes so much time and effort to make a well-crafted video.I would argue that switching from gyaku to ai hanmi by the side of the uke prior to entering adds little value to the technique; it wastes the directness and speed of the technique. What is really important is good kuzushi action, taking his strength away, and well-developed kokyu power.You are right-nothing is ever set in stone! That's why I challenge some of the established truths in aikido. Well, governments trample people's constitutional rights all the time, or if from a religious perspective, people break the ten commandments and sin every day-nothing is set in stone!But should we not follow from the best examples of a given path for progress? Who did surpass O sensei? Everybody likes to call for evolution and modernization without ever reaching a fraction of the mastery that O sensei had achieved. In my case, my chosen path is to discover those forgotten or little-known truths to the best of my ability, and make them available for others, and then move on from there. Once again, thank you for your comment and encouragement to continue my work.
@@MARIUSVL I agree, delivering a correct Kokyu extension is one of the key starting points in executing a proper Shiho nage. It is what starts to break uke's balance no matter what angle you choose. To your point on Iwama training during Saito Sensei's reign. During my studies in Iwama, which spanned from mid 70's to 1990, training was strong but not brutal. There is a difference. Brutal is when there is intent to hurt. The environment was not set that way. Saito Sensei always emphasized clean training vs dirty. He said Samurai's trained clean. In addition to the ethical and empathetic environment of the dojo, he also felt dirty-tricks training didn't teach the true principles of a technique. For example Irimi nage was trained grabbing the back of collar or side of neck. We were told never to grab side of face. Even though it could worked, it didn't teach your body about good position and was dangerous for uke's eyes. As for tobu ukemi, it is not an unsafe practice in its self. It was more preformed for demos to show the actual speed of a techniques. It was not practice unless... 1. You had the room. 2. You had the skill to do it. 3. The speed/ energy and technique called for it. 4. It was kept safe by releasing the pressure on the grip so uke could take the fall safely. 5. Saito Sensei always showed 2 ways to fall from a technique, either with a sit fall or forward roll. Both were ok depending on your level and space you had at the given time. He did not like when students make tobu ukemi the main part of the practice. He said O'Sensei felt the emphasis of the practice should be on how to control through techniques. Side note on Ukemi.... I heard this from Saito Sensei a few times and back-up by an interview with Isoyama Sensei. In the early days of Iwama they had no tatami mats. They trained on wood floors. Uke was different then. There was no tobu ukemi. They used forward rolls and back rolls. Even in ikkyo, uke would try to roll out of the technique so it was nage's job to prevent that. When mats were donated to the dojo ukemi style charged and there were more break falls. In responce to Saito Sensei's BASIC katate dori shiho nage (gyaku hanmi to ai hanmi at 90°). I can not speak to Tada, Tamura, Abe or Hikitsuchi's method since I had little to zero personal experience with them. But with Isoyama Sensei I have some limited experience. It was his schedule to come to Iwama annually with his students and lead a weekend seminar. I can not remember a class where he taught in shiho nage so I can not speak to your statement that it was different from Saito Sensei. But I will say this, Isoyama Sensei started at the Iwama dojo, just 3 years after Saito Sensei, in 1949 at the age of 12yr. Same dojo, same teacher, around the same time. All I can say is even coming from the same school, same teacher, same period, we all see things differently, have different experiences and make different adjustments for our own body types. I think our maturity also plays a role. Saito Sensei was a 18yr when he started his Aikido training with other arts under his belt. Isoyama Sensei was 12yr with maybe no previous martial training before. Pre Covid, for the past 4 years, we invited Sawa Sensei out to our area. He is an old Iwama Sempai of mine. He started his training at 12yr, in Iwama, with O'Sensei for 7 years before becoming one of Saito Sensei's students. His older brother, Inagaki Sensei, is the Chef Instructor of the Iwama dojo now. During his teaching he did an angle of kote gaeshi I have never seen Saito Sensei teach as basic before. I later saw a video of Isoyama Sensei demonstrate this angle too. When asking Sawa Sensei about this angle, he told me this is what O'Sensei use for basic and it was best for fighting. I feel forms are not meant to be a cookie cutter experience. The understanding of forms is just a seg-way into understanding core principles. I agree that we should respect the masters of before, for those are the shoulders we stand on and to deepen our understanding of the teachings they left behind, for they holds many answers and questions. For evolution to happen you need to have a solid understanding of what came before and the context of the times it was developed and not disregard pass knowledge. Good discussion. Look forward to your next video.
@@jayim7996With all due respect, I would take Saito's instruction over any other of O'Sensei's iwama students. Saito trained with him for a little over 20 years, often one on one. The 'disoovery' of the 1938 aiki budo manual in the 1980's vindicated Saito's transmission of O'Sensei's Iwama curriculum.
When Daito Ryu folks like Kondo apply aiki in the initial motion of shihonage, it is not about strength and being stronger than your opponent. It is deceptive because it looks like muscular force, but it is a combination of unbalancing and internal/structural power. I am nowhere close to mastering the aiki age motion, but it is a fundamental skill in Daito Ryu that has been lost by a lot of aikido lineages.
Thank you for all the work you put into this video. One of the best breakdowns of the little details and technicalities I've ever seen. I'll definitely check out the rest of the vids on your channel. Very curious to see what you have managed to dig up in your research. Will definitely show this to my fellow aikidokas :)
You critiqued both giant of aikido and founder of Iwama Ryu and how Daito Ryu teaches this technique. I admire your courage but am unconvinced. My aikido sensei teaches us to sink our centre, maintaining connection with uke and stepping through deeply while turning and leading with our 'behind' when executing omote shihonage. This has solved the problem of what we call the 'twinkle toes' teaction by uke. That is, uke spins around when nage is stepping through. BTW, we train with a young second dan Daito Ryu student (He recieved his first and second Aikijujutsu dan gradings on the mat in Japan). He also has trained in Soden. I will send him a link to your video. We have practiced aikijujutsu version of shihonage which was also taught by Morihiro Saito.
That is Ok, if you are not convinced. That is not the purpose of my videos, because it is not possible to convince everybody, and then, many do not want to be convinced - they are happy doing whatever they are doing, and even feel threatened if somebody challenges their beliefs. But what i do not want, is to keep my work, my research hidden from others, and that is precisely what i am doing..sharing my work.
The person doing the happo giri at the begging has all of his weight on the back foot on landing of the cuts. That should be the opposite. The sword has to cut through someones body. The vertical body weigh need to drop on the cutting sword/front foot. I can see his soft step on the foot foot. It shows in his posture as well. He looks like a high grade dan as well. he should know better. That is ridiculous. After the cut the body weight is close to a 90% to10% front back foot (80/20).
Thank you for commenting. I did not explain properly. Well, it is not the ultimate tutorial on how to do it; it is for experienced practitioners to see and compare it to their own style and maybe take something from it. Please, I really would like to know from you what I do not know and do not understand.
Excellent.
Love what you said about the highfalls
Morihiro Saito often said something similar about "high fall training" (tobu ukemi) with Shiho Nage. It was used for demo only. He often said "Morihei Ueshiba felt the best way to train Shiho Nage was to control uke all the way to the ground." Yes, Shiho Nage is not meant to be an immobilizing pinning technique like Ikkyo - Hachikyo series. Tobu ukemi was not commonly used at the Iwama dojo daily training. It was all about learning how to break the balance and control uke. Tobu ukemi was only used if we had the room and were practicing the speed of a throw. Morihiro Saito often said daily training (of techniques) should not be about ukemi. He once stopped the class and scolded a couple for making "tobu ukemi" their emphasis.
Thank you! Great comment. I have also seen Saito sensei in seminar explaining that- shiho nage must be aplied strongly- while the throwing should be applied lightly. This is correct, traditional practice. Also sensei advised never to assume that you mastered the technique, he said it took him many years to realise he was doing certain aspect of shiho nage not right.
@@MARIUSVL In the mid 70's when I was uchi-deshi with Saito Sensei, he came up with this method of training. "The blend is strict and the throw is soft." It was drummed into our DNA to train this way. Previously the training in Iwama was not like that.
As you stated in your video, there were a few situations in Japanese University Aikido Clubs where students were getting injured and in one case, death. If I recall correctly the report showed Aikido to have the highest rate of injuries compared to other popular Martial Arts.
This disturbed Saito Sensei a lot and he re-thought his training method. He always stated training should be safe and for the young and old. During my days we were shown and practice may server/ deadly accepts of a techniques, but always with the consideration of safety and control, so no one got injured. People only got injured if they were sloppy, careless and didn't follow training instructions. And they would be severely scolded.
I recently heard Kano Sensei took out certain wrist, arm and other joint locks out of Judo dating back to 1899, because they were deemed to dangerous during competition and free sparing. In Aikido we can still practice those locks, even spinal and neck because we kept the training in a Kata formate.
p.s... Stepping directly into omote shiho nage was a pre-war form. Stepping off the line at 90 degree was something Ueshiba started in the Iwama days. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Pre-War having the speed but can be blocked by a stronger uke. Post-War's 90 degree + angle is an advantage for a weaker nage and teaches clearing the line of attack, but is slower. The way we practiced 95% of the time was the Post-War way. But it was meant to teach basic principles of angles, and not meant to be the only expression. How it is applied, depending on the situation, falls along the full spectrum of Pre-War and Post-War's movement.
What Ueshiba and Saito Sensei left is not set in stone, but ideas for further self discovery and evolution.
Great analyses of the old photos. Keep up the exploration.
@@jayim7996 It is always a pleasure to interact with an experienced old-time practitioner, sempai, who was actually there training on the mats of Iwama dojo. Thank you for your lengthy, insightful comment. I feel I could elaborate some more on this topic.
So, safety in training is without a doubt important, but injuries cannot be totally avoided, only minimised. That's why I am advocating dismissing dangerous and totally unnecessary practises. Saito sensei might have improved safety in training, as you have mentioned, but he never stopped teaching and practising taking tobu ukemi where it was totally unnecessary. In Iwama, rough training was common; showing off strength was not advised but not forbidden either, especially amongst strong foreigners who trained there.
I respectfully have to disagree with you on this point, though, that stepping off the line in shiho nage from gyaku hanmi was something introduced by the Founder during the postwar era. Saito sensei was pretty much the only direct disciple of O sensei who practised shiho nage like that. All the other greats from the post-war era, like Isoyama, Tada, Tamura, Abe, and Hikitsuchi, had been practising shiho nage in the so-called pre-war way. This can be proved rather easily, but I excluded providing evidence for every point, because my video had already expanded to the 20-minute mark. It takes so much time and effort to make a well-crafted video.I would argue that switching from gyaku to ai hanmi by the side of the uke prior to entering adds little value to the technique; it wastes the directness and speed of the technique. What is really important is good kuzushi action, taking his strength away, and well-developed kokyu power.You are right-nothing is ever set in stone! That's why I challenge some of the established truths in aikido. Well, governments trample people's constitutional rights all the time, or if from a religious perspective, people break the ten commandments and sin every day-nothing is set in stone!But should we not follow from the best examples of a given path for progress? Who did surpass O sensei? Everybody likes to call for evolution and modernization without ever reaching a fraction of the mastery that O sensei had achieved. In my case, my chosen path is to discover those forgotten or little-known truths to the best of my ability, and make them available for others, and then move on from there.
Once again, thank you for your comment and encouragement to continue my work.
@@MARIUSVL I agree, delivering a correct Kokyu extension is one of the key starting points in executing a proper Shiho nage. It is what starts to break uke's balance no matter what angle you choose.
To your point on Iwama training during Saito Sensei's reign. During my studies in Iwama, which spanned from mid 70's to 1990, training was strong but not brutal. There is a difference. Brutal is when there is intent to hurt. The environment was not set that way. Saito Sensei always emphasized clean training vs dirty. He said Samurai's trained clean. In addition to the ethical and empathetic environment of the dojo, he also felt dirty-tricks training didn't teach the true principles of a technique. For example Irimi nage was trained grabbing the back of collar or side of neck. We were told never to grab side of face. Even though it could worked, it didn't teach your body about good position and was dangerous for uke's eyes.
As for tobu ukemi, it is not an unsafe practice in its self. It was more preformed for demos to show the actual speed of a techniques.
It was not practice unless...
1. You had the room.
2. You had the skill to do it.
3. The speed/ energy and technique called for it.
4. It was kept safe by releasing the pressure on the grip so uke could take the fall safely.
5. Saito Sensei always showed 2 ways to fall from a technique, either with a sit fall or forward roll. Both were ok depending on your level and space you had at the given time.
He did not like when students make tobu ukemi the main part of the practice. He said O'Sensei felt the emphasis of the practice should be on how to control through techniques.
Side note on Ukemi.... I heard this from Saito Sensei a few times and back-up by an interview with Isoyama Sensei. In the early days of Iwama they had no tatami mats. They trained on wood floors. Uke was different then. There was no tobu ukemi. They used forward rolls and back rolls. Even in ikkyo, uke would try to roll out of the technique so it was nage's job to prevent that. When mats were donated to the dojo ukemi style charged and there were more break falls.
In responce to Saito Sensei's BASIC katate dori shiho nage (gyaku hanmi to ai hanmi at 90°). I can not speak to Tada, Tamura, Abe or Hikitsuchi's method since I had little to zero personal experience with them. But with Isoyama Sensei I have some limited experience. It was his schedule to come to Iwama annually with his students and lead a weekend seminar. I can not remember a class where he taught in shiho nage so I can not speak to your statement that it was different from Saito Sensei. But I will say this, Isoyama Sensei started at the Iwama dojo, just 3 years after Saito Sensei, in 1949 at the age of 12yr. Same dojo, same teacher, around the same time. All I can say is even coming from the same school, same teacher, same period, we all see things differently, have different experiences and make different adjustments for our own body types. I think our maturity also plays a role. Saito Sensei was a 18yr when he started his Aikido training with other arts under his belt. Isoyama Sensei was 12yr with maybe no previous martial training before.
Pre Covid, for the past 4 years, we invited Sawa Sensei out to our area. He is an old Iwama Sempai of mine. He started his training at 12yr, in Iwama, with O'Sensei for 7 years before becoming one of Saito Sensei's students. His older brother, Inagaki Sensei, is the Chef Instructor of the Iwama dojo now. During his teaching he did an angle of kote gaeshi I have never seen Saito Sensei teach as basic before. I later saw a video of Isoyama Sensei demonstrate this angle too. When asking Sawa Sensei about this angle, he told me this is what O'Sensei use for basic and it was best for fighting.
I feel forms are not meant to be a cookie cutter experience. The understanding of forms is just a seg-way into understanding core principles.
I agree that we should respect the masters of before, for those are the shoulders we stand on and to deepen our understanding of the teachings they left behind, for they holds many answers and questions. For evolution to happen you need to have a solid understanding of what came before and the context of the times it was developed and not disregard pass knowledge.
Good discussion. Look forward to your next video.
@@jayim7996With all due respect, I would take Saito's instruction over any other of O'Sensei's iwama students. Saito trained with him for a little over 20 years, often one on one. The 'disoovery' of the 1938 aiki budo manual in the 1980's vindicated Saito's transmission of O'Sensei's Iwama curriculum.
When Daito Ryu folks like Kondo apply aiki in the initial motion of shihonage, it is not about strength and being stronger than your opponent. It is deceptive because it looks like muscular force, but it is a combination of unbalancing and internal/structural power. I am nowhere close to mastering the aiki age motion, but it is a fundamental skill in Daito Ryu that has been lost by a lot of aikido lineages.
Thank you for all the work you put into this video. One of the best breakdowns of the little details and technicalities I've ever seen. I'll definitely check out the rest of the vids on your channel. Very curious to see what you have managed to dig up in your research. Will definitely show this to my fellow aikidokas :)
You critiqued both giant of aikido and founder of Iwama Ryu and how Daito Ryu teaches this technique. I admire your courage but am unconvinced. My aikido sensei teaches us to sink our centre, maintaining connection with uke and stepping through deeply while turning and leading with our 'behind' when executing omote shihonage. This has solved the problem of what we call the 'twinkle toes' teaction by uke. That is, uke spins around when nage is stepping through. BTW, we train with a young second dan Daito Ryu student (He recieved his first and second Aikijujutsu dan gradings on the mat in Japan). He also has trained in Soden. I will send him a link to your video. We have practiced aikijujutsu version of shihonage which was also taught by Morihiro Saito.
That is Ok, if you are not convinced. That is not the purpose of my videos, because it is not possible to convince everybody, and then, many do not want to be convinced - they are happy doing whatever they are doing, and even feel threatened if somebody challenges their beliefs. But what i do not want, is to keep my work, my research hidden from others, and that is precisely what i am doing..sharing my work.
The person doing the happo giri at the begging has all of his weight on the back foot on landing of the cuts. That should be the opposite. The sword has to cut through someones body. The vertical body weigh need to drop on the cutting sword/front foot. I can see his soft step on the foot foot. It shows in his posture as well. He looks like a high grade dan as well. he should know better. That is ridiculous.
After the cut the body weight is close to a 90% to10% front back foot (80/20).
Thank you for your observation, although what it seem in correct but it is truly correct. Now I understand
Please, there are some good points but you fail to explain it properly. There’s much more to it, that you don’t know or that you don’t understand.
Thank you for commenting. I did not explain properly. Well, it is not the ultimate tutorial on how to do it; it is for experienced practitioners to see and compare it to their own style and maybe take something from it. Please, I really would like to know from you what I do not know and do not understand.