What Is (and Is Not) Toxic Masculinity? | Renegade Cut
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- Defining what is NOT toxic masculinity has become as important as defining what it is. Support Renegade Cut Media through Patreon: / renegadecut
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I wouldn't say toxic masculinity deemphasizes positive, masculine-coded, traits so much as it warps them. Courage becomes recklessness or brashness, protectiveness becomes possessiveness or entitlement.
That's a fair assessment.
I need to remember this...
It also encourages men to create an environment where these traits are required, else they'll feel useless. I see this a lot in the nationalist community, who fetishise warrior culture and create the "Other", usually out of migrants, and thereby legitimise all the time they spend in the gym and learning to fight.
Rob Baldwin So valid. This exact expectation causes so many of my male loved ones so sabotage their own happiness. In a lot of ways, men think that and equal relationship is the same as an emasculating one. When they find themselves with someone who attends to their needs just a much as they attend to that person's, they often "don't feel needed" as though it's not enough for someone to just need their loving company.
Damn, that's a good point.
Me and some classmates had to explain 'soyboy' to my biology teacher and the poor man looked like he died a bit inside
At least you didn't have to explain why the term itself is stupid.
Your name is my exact thoughts reading this 🤦🏻♀️
I’ve kept Hbomb’s playlist in the subject saved to give to people who use soyboy as an insult, or people who genuinely believe that consuming soy will feminise you.
It’s probably my favourite of his topics.
@Morahman7vnNo2 A term met to belittle men for being insufficiently masculine or even (perish the thought) feminine. It's based on a pseudoscientific reading of the fact the soy beans contain phytoestrogens, and thus are perceived by the term's users to make you more feminine when consumed, due to a false conflation of phytoestrogens with the human "femininity" hormone of estrogen. Thus, men who don't act within the limits of what is considered masculine, as determined by toxic masculinity, must have eaten too much soy.
I'm gonna say it because I've been thinking about this since 1996, when the slang then should've subverted me. Do all these term namers come from the first grade class from the same elementary school?
As a guy, recognizing and breaking away from my own toxic masculinity was one of the smartest and healthiest self help decisions I've ever made in my life. Period. ANY man who is able to do the same is doing themselves one of the most valuable services they'll ever do. I still have a lot to unlearn, but it's a start. It's tough and challenging. But trust me. It's worth it.
I wish you well, man. It's tough out there.
Same Alex, and I feel a lot freer and more engaged with my community. Seeing the world without the lens of tox masculinity is incredibly eye opening. I feel more at peace. I like yourself, have a life time of unlearning to do.
I was taught to be the reverse of TM spectrum thanks to my Dad. Taught to look at men who do the things that TM demands and vilify that. And I do. I find it abhorrent to force myself on someone else, to not show any emotion other than anger.
Congratulations on your growth! For me, it was kinda weird, but as I started shedding away the toxic masculine beliefs, I started practicing the positive ones spontaneously - I started working out when I linked training with health and feeling good, rather than ego-pumping and looking good, I started having more intimate interactions with women when I stopped my possessiveness and emphasizing intimacy with women purely as "sexual conquest", and now I am in a profoundly satisfying relationship with a women I completely love. I had to unlearn everything men around me (and most women, to be fair) taught me since birth, basically, and a huge help was going to a college with mostly female students, and later having mostly female coworkers. Finally, therapy showed me that most (if not all) of my mysoginistic traits came from me having a very toxic mother, and my "beef" with women in general was actually my unaddressed anger towards her - the valuable lesson there is that individual women can still be assholes, even if we accept the idea that women in general aren't bad or inferior. Sounds silly that something that obvious would take a lot of effort to conclude, but it just shows how strong indoctrination of boys is in our society.
I get sad whenever men get mad about toxic masculinity. It _hurts men,_ and I constantly worry about the mental wellbeing and happiness of men who so fervently defend the violent, possessive, entitled form of masculinity. There are other, better forms of manliness out there.
This!
Yup, nothing for me felt more freeing than letting go of the need to suppress things I love just because I thought I wasn't allowed to, I wish more men would have this epiphany as well.
This is a very compassionate comment. Thank you ❤️
Are you kidding? I think it's hilarious. They try so hard to convince everyone that they're ultra-butch they fail to see that the system isn't set up to make men look dominant by everyone's standards, and the criteria they have to live up to is impossible...for a reason. The upper class doesn't like competition, so they make masculine criteria that is too difficult even for them to live up to. There is no natural manliness, just the illusion of it.
I agree. TM hurts men just as much as it hurts women.
The first time I got called "a simp cuck" I realized that the word "cuck" is one of the cutest words I have ever heard. It reminds me of the cuckoos on Legend of Zelda and therefore makes me smile whenever I here it.
The term cuckold or cuck actually DOES come from the Cuckoo bird, because the Cuckoo often will put their eggs in the nests of other birds and make them raise the chicks instead.
Cuckoos make you smile? They scare me...
Yes! Respect the Cuccos or their invincible army will get you!
I use cuck jokingly with my friends just because it's one of the goofiest words I've ever heard.
The thing about toxic masculinity is that you don't even have to be terribly masculine to have it: take say a middle aged father who is the breadwinner of his family, interested in sports yadda yadda who still loves and cares for his family, is an emotionally available and supportive father and husband etc. Now think of say, a teenage dweeb who can't get a girlfriend to save his life and has become extremely entitled and embittered about it. Despite the former being much more conventionally masculine, his masculinity is far less toxic.
Not sure if this was clearly mentioned, but it needs to be noted that people of any gender can act as enforcers (wittingly or unwittingly) of toxic masculinity.
Kanji Tatsumi's Story arc in Persona 4 Golden can attest to that.
Shadow Kanji: Oh, how I hate girls. They say those awful things about you behind your back!
"Oh, you like to sew? That is so not you!"
@@michealforguson5317 "Why aren't you a Guy? You don't act like a Guy...."
So Gaston from 'Beauty and the Beast' is the poster boy for toxic masculinity?
Livio Langella yes
Yes. Also Tyler Durden in Fight Club.
And he's the villain, which is how this type of character should be portrayed in the first place. There's nothing to admire in such a character with such toxic traits.
And the Beast is trash.
Dave102693 but the Beast’s arc as a character is to unlearn these negative traits. He learns patience, gentleness, compassion, and love.
Last year when this topic blew up, someone told me, "They're trying to get us to think that masculity is toxic!"
Me: "We need to go back to grammar school." Toxic here is a qualifier; like tough love is.
It's great that we're learning these things. It's even good for women, especially those who function in male dominated environments. Strengths in femininity are and always will be just that, strengths; just like how strengths in masculity are and always will be just that, strengths. Toxicty can exist from both sides as well. And both men and women can have strengths and toxicity from both sides. Or we'd never be able to understand each other past our noses.
I have a different interpretation of Conan's character, specifically about his inability to cry. The scene always seemed to be playing his lack of visible grief for tragedy, not manliness--the film regularly reinforces, through Mako's narration, that Conan has suffered repeatedly throughout his life and has not had a fully rounded and healthy upbringing, so it seemed more that Subutai understood that Conan was too traumatized to deal with grief like a normal person, and was both crying in his place and crying for how sad it was that he was in such a state.
Hello from the future! I agree with this interpretation! Supporting this interpretation is the fact that the other guy crying (for Conan) was not presented as weak or any kind of negative thing. It was really like, he doesn’t know how to cry.
I’d never watched Conan before and knew the movie exclusively from the quote about crushing your enemies being best in life. Imagine my surprise when I finally watched it and learned he was just parroting the captors who’d enslaved him and forced him to fight, and that was the exact ideology he was trying to reject by escaping. The rest of the movie is focused on him building real relationships (for example, he is literally less forceful on his love interest than Han Solo is on Princess Leia) and he is not especially aggressive or confrontational otherwise. He doesn’t fight anyone who doesn’t attack him first and he usually tried to sneak in to places rather than barge in and kill everyone.
Also, in the original pulp stories, the term “barbarian” was more understood to mean not part of a kingdom or empire (Cimmerians being disparate tribes descended from Atlanteans after its sinking), not a reference to behavior or savagery.
I'm a girl who used to dismiss toxic masculinity in exchange for respect. I would hide my emotions and act like a bit of a douche bag. I wanted to be respected so I took the attitude that would get me that. One day my friend called me out on it and it felt like I had been gutted. I ended up re-examining my behavior and I'm slowly becoming less of a high school female frat boy.
Awesome that you figured that out. I had a lot of toxic traits and “necessary philosophical” ideas I needed to let go of too. It’s still a process but the freedom from these old ideas is so liberating.
I like the way LOTR portrays masculinity. You can be a strong stoic badass, but also can show moments of weakness and sadness.
It is when Aragon seems vulnerable that he is at his strongest... It is the small helpless hobbits that triumph again and again... And it is Sam's love and dedication to Frodo that allows the ring to be destroyed...
@@hunnybadger442 "It is Sam's love and dedication to Frodo that allows the ring to be destroyed" 😆😂
My favorite description is from a tweet by @emrazz : "The term “toxic masculinity” is a litmus test. If it makes you angry, you failed."
Wingwisher my personal go to is- when I talk about a red shirt, I am not saying all shirts are red. The adjective is a modifier.
I used to be a nurse and one of the things that drove me out was the deeply ingrained mentality that men shouldn't be nurses...
While I was working as a care-giver people where telling me men couldn't be care-givers... like what the fuck my man... I'm washing you, dressing your wound and helping you put your clothes on; that doesn't suddenly turn me into a woman nor does it mean I'm not a man. People are so blind to practical reality a lot of them just called me doctor...
When I was watching the Luke Cage series I found myself thinking about toxic masculinity. I felt like Luke really was a role model on how to be a man without falling into toxic elements (most of the time). He would try to do the right thing, avoid violence as much as possible, try not to escalate things or hurt people, use his words, lead by example, not look for recognition, etc.
A good way to frame discussion of Toxic Masculinity is to explain it with an equivalent.
“Some air is toxic. This air is Toxic Air.”
No one who’s told that would argue that you’re calling all air toxic.
I do think masculinity has its place in the world. Men that are humble, hard working, and considerate are needed in the world. It's when men become possessive, arrogant and violent that masculinity goes from positive to toxic. Luckily I was raised to be humble and respectful so I like to think I'm an example of positive masculinity. Plus America has a history of exploiting men with their ideal of the "hard man" for their war machine.
Honestly, I think that ideally these positive "masculine" traits would be embraced by all genders - and in fact, the positive "feminine" ones as well. I see nothing detrimental in everyone exhibiting empathy, perseverance, tenderness, protectiveness, humbleness, etc.!
@@screamingweevil3410 Abolish gender!
In modern society gender roles evolved into templates of behaviour that serve as cogs to keep the machine of capitalism running. While masculinity preaches violence, lack of empathy and unethical competition as a "natural", pseudo-darwinist order, femininity has become a cocktail of material vanity and passiveness to create the perpetual state of social anxiety that fuels the consumer society. It's important to understand that regardless of our biological sex, we are all influenced by the toxic aspects of both gender roles.
Unfortunately, discussing toxic masculinity is paradoxical. Those who need to hear, take in and reflect on the concept are immune to doing so, because of their conditioning. Note, this is not about men. There are women who believe that toxic masculinity is true masculinity. And, anyone who believes that will automatically dismiss any criticism of toxic masculinity, that is how truly and deeply this behavior is rooted.
Discussing toxic masculinity should be aimed at young people, who are still forming their ideas about how people should behave in society and what society should look like.
There are always a certain segment of the population that can be worn down through exposure. Like, say, take racism. Are there people who are nazis and consider their white superiority to be a personality trait? Yeah obvs. But there also a lot of people who just have never seen a person darker than Italian, and have nothing to go on except what they're told. Are there men who are in MRAs and make suppressing non-gender conforming penis owners and everyone else a core personality trait? Sure. But there's also a lot of guys who just kinda passively think rape jokes are funny or stick "no homo" after any statement of affection for their friends, who are just doing what they were taught to do because they never bothered to think about it at all. You can talk to them. Especially other men can talk to them. And the more people in the middle you get, the further across you can spread as the people on the edges of the middle reach further out.
I mean, on the other side, have you actually looked at the plan of attack that got us the nazi/mra/terf internet? They systematically made a plan just like this, but used it for evil, and it *worked*. The more you talk, the harder it becomes to dismiss you, just through repetition (mere exposure is a PITA). The less someone can dismiss you, the more people will be willing to consider your ideas are valid. They aren't spamming every comment section with "subscribe to pewdiepie" and the more assorted horrific language just for the lulz. They're doing it because it works.
Honestly, while emphasis does need to be put on teaching people while they're young, I still think videos like this are tremendously helpful. I've had plenty of conversations about this, and most wind up at the half-productive point of "well, maybe YOU aren't saying all men are bad when you talk about toxic masculinity, but I think most feminists are using a more misandric definition of that term". Personally, I have almost never seen someone talk about toxic masculinity in that way, and the one time I did witness it she was immediately corrected by other feminists, but I can't speak for and don't want to invalidate other people's experiences.
And y'know what's incredibly helpful for me making the case that most feminists aren't misusing the term? Having tons of videos from other feminists saying "no, seriously, the problem is not all masculinity and it certainly is not all men". This, in my experience, is not a controversial statement among most feminists, but it contradicts what plenty of people who oppose feminists believe about us.
Dunning-Krueger effect?
@@jessielefey Right-the-hell-on. The same hierarchies that must be opposed are also leaving people (often young men) dispossessed and alienated. Then those same folks you mention can swoop in and solve (or explain) these young men's discomfort. "The feminists are after you! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
It's like they create their own stock of recruits. And by "it's like" I mean "it's literally the case that".
Such a great point. Women are the ones who are socialized to comment on and police behaviors. Women are taught to help pass on what the group has normalized. Toxic masculinity is also internalized and passed on by women who have come to rationalize their own oppression.
i've been skeptical of the topic on and off based on all the inflammitory content out there, but thanks for breaking down the concept carefully. love this channel!
we stan personal growth
Whilst it’s true a lot of people misuse ‘toxic masculinity’ when criticising aspects of masculinity, the aggressive and often venomous vitriol spewed by incels and the like in defence of their toxic behaviours is just plain nasty. Also highly ironic the men who seem to care most about values of masculinity couldn’t be further from the ideals they adore: Musclebound, dominant, confident, skilled, wealthy, etc.
I agree, although I think it's less of an ironic thing and more of it's them expressing the very things they are insecure about. If they want those traits that badly, they CAN'T be toxic because then everything they're striving for out of life is meaningless, and that's terrifying (in part because a lot of them already feel their life has no big meaning).
i had to explain this shit to my dad last month lol. He keeps saying shit to my son (12 years old) that is intended to influence him to be aggressive, uncompromising, dominant, and indifferent to others and his own emotions. I fight back against that and of course sit him down and tell him that its no ones job to tell him how he should or shouldn't feel and that you SHOULD be sad when you feel sad and its ok to cry when something bad happens. That no one actually enjoys being around people who are fake all the time and the only people who push this idea, are those who are too uncomfortable with themselves and the idea of others displaying emotions also makes them uncomfortable so they take it out on them in the form of verbal or physical abuse to try and control their behavior.
Actually, conan says "Hear the lamentations of THEIR women", meaning the women of the enemies one has crushed, meaning they will cry out in lamentation when their men have been crushed.
However, your point still remain.
FYI - The "what is best in life?" speech is an adaption of Genghis Khan's answer 800 years ago - "to crush your enemies, to see them fall at your feet - to take their horses and goods and hear the lamentation of their women. That is best."
If I'm not mistaken it's also not from the source material. Apparently the author was remarkably femenist and had a lot of his work hamstrung - then the AHNOHLD movie was made using a really, really simple version of the character.
Genghis Khan actually killed 40 million people, without the advanced technology of Hitler or Stalin...
That, and several million people apparently are descended directly from him.
Which...😨 darkly impressive. The dude was a busy man.
It’s kinda funny how MRA’s claim we don’t care about men’s issues, but if they looked passed the name of toxic masculinity instead of dismissing it entirely they’d realise we actually fight for a lot of the same things.
I feel like man, who are more like men, depicted by stereotypes, have harder time.
"Oh, I'm angry all the time" or "yes, I think about sex 95% of my day".
My female friends, who experienced hard persistent anger or very high libido, went to doctors and were diagnosed with hormonal imbalance. Within a week or two, they were treated.
My male friends with similar experiences mostly insist that it's normal for men to feel that way. That, in fact, every man is the same way, but lying.
And if they lose that intense feelings, they could feel emasculated, because this is the treat they perceive as masculine.
A great video to show people in my life who get defensive over criticism of toxic masculinity. It's difficult to get people to understand that toxic masculinity hurts men as well as women. I don't want men to feel bad for being men. I want men to feel comfortable enough to fully express themselves, especially when they're feeling vulnerable.
Hands down, the smartest dissection I've seen to date of what toxic masculinity actually is. As someone who has spent more years than he wants to think about struggling with living up to being a man (both by societal standards, which I've since rejected, and my own, which I often feel I fail), it is refreshing to see someone help make sense of where the ugliness comes from, how deep the roots go and point to the way forward. Stuff like this is why I am a new subscriber!
Welcome!
Cool vid, and I like the reading of Conan (the take on the character within the film) as a tragic rather than aspirational hero (even though, y'know, running around in a gorgeous fantasy land having adventures still looks fun ;) ). There are a few points of golden opportunity you missed, particularly in the director's cut, where a surprising amount of healthy masculinity and personal growth can be seen within the text of the film, juxtaposed with the toxic. Most strikingly, Conan learns that his father was wrong. By "trusting no one/nothing but his sword", he abandons his best friend and lover to seek vengeance alone, only to nearly die. They're the ones who come to his rescue. Then there's his pre-battle reflection of doubt and regret right before the battle. Perhaps most movingly, in the denouement, the captured/rescued princess (previously the woman who's lamentations we heard as he drove his enemies before him) bows before him at first with the impulse to idolize him in the place of the evil cult leader he just killed. Instead of accepting her worship, he offers her a hand up as he would to a comrade, indicating she can't look to him or anyone but herself for the truth of her soul. It's a silent moment that speaks volumes.
This is really great and informative, and necessary on youtube. Toxic masculinity sucks, and it seems it literally kills some men? Young impressionable men need this info. Thank you for presenting it. And like days after your James Bond vid!
I mean, look at the suicide rates for young men. Its horrible how many men feel forced to internalize their pain and frustration.
Yeah, it's been a while ago, but there was a webcomic going around, where the artist was depicting how his father was always telling him to not cry and stay strong, even at the funeral of his brother, who killed himself. And still, the father could not see, how holding it all in and not showing weakness is what contributed to the death of his son.
You have a very good point there at the start. For as much as I can remember you are the only person I've seen talk about toxic masculinity as a construct and response system; many of the people I've seen talk about toxic masculinity seem to be under the impression that "toxic masculinity" refers to the negative aspects of masculine traits and why the negative out-way the good aspects. Or how some masculine traits when pushed become so toxic they make men unpleasant to be around. With such a fundamental miscommunication on the topic no wonder the "discussion" is just two sides yelling at each other while professors do research and write papers.
A lot of criticism of masculinity is indeed not as well-worded or as well thought-out as the authors of those criticisms might imagine.
But could you perhaps give examples of where you have seen the term described as such? In my experience, I have seen people (when they are actually discussing on the issue) only use the term for harmful and dangerous gender roles taught to and absorbed by men.
@@oof-rr5nf Not off the top of my head sorry. Its mostly sentiments I've gathered from twitter you tube and such, not exactly people with the most means and drive for detail, but it stands to point that most people don't know 100% what their talking about (myself included)
Videos like this help at least folks I know a lot. Even if it's all things you already know or were given to believe, it's motivating to see high profile validation of these kinds of values. Hang out in certain circles online for too long and you might find yourself demotivated. Endless amounts of sexism, hate, cynicism, bad faith criticism, etc on sites like Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, and UA-cam. Stuff like this is important to keep folks moving forward, to remind them a lot of folks see similar problems, that we're not being idealistic.
lovely comment 💜
Really enjoyed this.
I was hoping you might talk about the difference in Thulsa Doom’s Masculinity, when he explains to Conan that flesh is stronger than steel.
Yet he has a cult, built on an illusion of love, but is still just a Slave Power dynamic, with just another hierarchy.
There’s probably not much there, but going from a child watching this film, to a teenager, then a young man, it held different meaning for me.
Howard wrote the character as an absurd version of everything the culture, and time he grew up in thought he should be as a man.
Milius seemed to just make this film as a fantasy, of the man he wished he was.
"Howard wrote the character as an absurd version of everything the culture and time he grew up in thought he should be as a man."
That's a very interesting insight, especially with Howard's letters about his disappointments with the publishers asking for him to add more sex shit into his stories. No idea where his other characters like Kull the Conqueror, Solomon Kane, etc. fit into this.
Dismantling hierarchal power structures in general? Sign me up.
This video was very helpful to me in order to help me better understand and evaluate my own masculinity. Thank you Leon!
It is kind of dumb that the people who use the phrase along the line "men invented/built/discovered X". Nobody is discrediting those men. but what has to be asked of those peop;le is "what did you do with your life that made things game changing?".
I think it's funny that people talk about all the great things men did when women did some of them decades to centuries before but were murdered and their ideas stolen...
10:00 my grandfather literally became ill and died [mostly] because he couldn't express his feelings to my father when I was born.
My grampa died because he was a country boy who didn't need no damned doctor, until his mild uti bloomed into a kidney infection and it was too late to do anything about it. //sigh// It's not exactly the same, but I kinda feel you.
@@jessielefey Stems from the same problem he is talking about in this video so you're very on point, actually. I am sorry for your loss, both of you.
When I get angry, the kind of angry I have spent years trying to rid myself of, it feels like I'm fighting with my dad again. Things feel so serious. I feel like there is no choice but to be this way. I used to feel like this all the time. I had never been more miserable. I was raised to not listen to my inner voice. I was raised to abuse drugs and alcohol as an acceptable way of dealing with personal issues. I was raised to think that how I felt simply did not matter, not to anyone, even to me. I have only on the past two or three years really begun to grow beyond this, and if I ever have a son he will be raised better than me.
Great video! As a guy growing up in the 70's and 80's, I had to deal with this shit all the time, particularly since I hated sports and wasn't good at them. I preferred books and music (still do). Luckily (for me at least) I was big and tall so I wasn't picked on TOO much, particularly when I got to high school. But I hear horror stories of what other guys went through. I'm so glad I'm approaching 50 and don't have to deal with this anymore. It also makes me glad my children are girls. I wouldn't want to raise boys in this culture (just speaking for myself, of course).
critics:"Toxic masculinity is bad"
"They're rallying against all men!"
superheroes:"Let's fight the bad guys"
"They're out to beat up all guys!"
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for making this!!!! I hate being considered inferior for my femininity as a guy. Thank you SO much for making it clear what toxic masculinity is. You just got yourself a new viewer.
It’s interesting that Conan The Barbarian books (and films) present this overblown image of masculity, while it’s author, Robert E. Howard, shot himself in the head immediately as he was told his mother won’t ever wake up from coma.
Howard was a broody figure, considered the town freak in his hometown of Peaster, Texas, bullied when he was a kid until he did enough physical activity to make all of the bullies back off and had a despairing view of the world. He was just a man who hurt inside and the bad music in his head never got the help it needed.
The main problem I have with the term “toxic masculinity” is with how it is used, when I first heard the term, it was used to describe men who rape, murder, kill, steal and destroy, and then I heard it being associated with men who fight constantly and are heavy handed, and angry, and then it was used to describe men who were traditionally masculine men who worked at jobs and had wives who stayed in the home, and then the final time was when someone described it as being when men fought PERIOD not taking into account why, and men pursuing a relationship with a woman. When a word does not have a concrete meaning, it gets used incorrectly resulting in people associating the word with the incorrect meaning.
This deserves way more views. This is one of the most easily digestible and understandable videos on the subject, thank you
A nice example of a non-toxic male character is Marco Diaz from the cartoon Star vs. the forces of evil. Yeah, say what you want about it being a children's cartoon. Marco's depicted often in touch with his feelings, yeah, he's into martial arts and stuff but he often enters in contact with his feelings, he's told to be not a protector but a friend and isn't even shown to be afraid of the feminine aspects we all have. On the other hand Star is a rainbow-unicorn loving girl that always is kicking ass and that looks up to badass women. These things that society present as "opposite" are just not. We all are dual in that sense. And as eductaion goes, what better thing than presenting it to kids in the form of a cool cartoon. Awesome video
Negative Masculinity might be a useful term. And it implies there is such a thing as Positive Masculinity - which would be a good thing to attempt to define. Maybe it would be helpful to spend some of this energy discussing what men SHOULD admire and emulate, rather than focusing so exclusively on what is maladaptive.
In any event, it's pretty clear that men have been taught a lot of corrosive, dangerous shit. A lot of it probably made sense historically, or it wouldn't have gotten such a hold. But yeah, pretending to be emotionally invulnerable, and relentlessly aggressive isn't good for the men, or for anyone who has to deal with them. Having a term for the complex maladaptive behaviors most of us were taught is useful. "Toxic Masculinity" will do, if we can't agree on anything better.
Is there a promotion of healthy masculinity as well? Showing what to do is as important, if not more so, than what not to do.
There is, but all examples of such are precisely the ones that get dismissed as being "cucks", "soyboys" or, in the case of characters in fiction, the studio "pushing an SJW agenda"
How about "Dysfunctional Masculinity" as an alternative term, in relation to "dysfunctional family?" If they accuse you of saying "ALL men are dysfunctional" you can agree with them confidently given how pretty much everyone has a troubled upbringing of some sort.
Your end credit music selections are perfect.
Men who go on to commit appalling acts like the recent shooting in the UK (the perpetrator was an incel) are an example of the kind of consequences that can happen if we don't confront toxic masculinity and make a genuine effort to educate young people about it. Excellent video!
Thank you for taking the time to give examples as to what is and what is not toxic masculinity. Unfortunately, you know that 99% of people who use the term in non-academic circumstances do not understand what you have clearly demonstrated here and will use it interchangeably as if it were a racial slur or direct insult to cause toxic behaviour online.
As much as I respect your approach in that matter - I think that you missed a big chance by not going deeper into that term "toxic feminity". Because not only does that reinforce the antagonist role of men in feminist discussion, it's missing one of the facts why we needed feminism in the first place (as the traditional female gender role bred dissatisfaction on one side and extremism on the other).
This is amazing.
And the fact that there literally had to be a seven minute introduction to 'toxic masculinity' and specifically the defense(s) and actual definition of that term perfectly demonstrates why you would even HAVE to have that as a background to the actual thesis.
Love it.
I consider myself an Masculine person, I like to work out, I push to make my life better and I feel the need to help and protect the people around me. I do not however feel the need to control or harm others to make myself feel more like a man. That’s the key, I am the way I am because it feels right to me, I enjoy who I am.
Everyone deserves to have the right to seek what makes them happy in life, everyone deserves freedom to choose who they want to be and Toxic Masculinity it the Antithesis of that freedom to choose. It’s violent and forced down the throats of men all over the world, Makes me sick when I hear someone taking about how bit of an “Alpha Male” they are, because what that does is tell me that this Man is, In fact, NOT an Alpha male. Because someone who Truly is a Strong man (Or woman for that matter) won’t feel the need to constantly reaffirm that in the eyes of others, or in the eyes of himself. He simply would be.😪
This video is just great. It perfectly balances accommodating the arguments and pushback of the people it is aimed at and being unapologetic in its arguments, it ties the subject cleverly into pop culture and into sociology.
That was one of the best, most informative and well put-together video essay about such a complicated subject. Thank you once again Leon! We need more people like you to change the world. keep up the good work!
I love Milius' Conan film and this is an excellent lens through which to critique it. Really good essay.
And on the other hand we have the lovely Dave the barbarian, who is comfortable with his masculinity and isn't afraid of embracing his feminine side. 💜
Satya wasn’t Dave a wimp tho.
But I think another comparison could have been Fist of the North Star. Mostly cause it is well known for not only having characters that would fit that typical mold of masculinity, but also having those same characters also show that they have gentle and caring hearts, not afraid to show emotion.
When you hear the lamentations of the women, you should make the effort to really listen...
You made me cackle
Toxic masculinity somehow comes from a perveted vision of stoicism in my opinion : where stoicism shows strength by the absence of emotions over the things you cannot control, which means that we should feel and care for what we have and have an impact on, while toxic masculinity is absolute absence of emotions
6:11 THANK YOU
My biggest frustration in this discussion with people that misunderstand toxic masculinity is the *feigned ignorance around the concept of an adjective. We’re talking ONLY about the masculinity that is toxic, not saying masculinity is overall toxic. If we though masculinity = toxic, we’d just call it masculinity.
*I’m sure it’s not always intentional as defensiveness can lead to illogical arguments but it intellectually dishonest regardless of intent.
Based on your twitter and sections in recent videos, dealing with youtube comments seems to put more stress on you than they are worth. Have you considered just completely disabling them so that you don't have to deal with it?
It's not an option. Comments help the channel. Disabling comments hurts the channel. I do this for a living. I don't blame any UA-camr for disabling the comments, though. It's their channel, and their own mental health is important, but I simply can't afford to do that.
I also don't want my comments sections to become unmoderated wastelands where the people with the worst opinions rise to the top. I feel responsible for what happens under my videos. So, I read and moderate every single comment that comes through. I appreciate the concern, but there really is no way around it.
@@renegadecut9875 i appreciate your work ^_^ thank you
I am a feminist and i approve this video
I knew I could trust you with this topic- bravo. All very well put. I’m really glad a man made this video essay because I know if a woman had, the men who needed to hear this wouldn’t listen.
A better comparison than your baseball team one would be spoiled food. “What? Spoiled foods? I can’t believe you think all food is spoiled. Look at this tasty sandwich, it’s clearly not spoiled. Obviously the idea of spoiled food is nonsense.”
Great analogy!
Agree with all of this and I really love that this video exists in this universe. AND I wish you had called out that non-men ALSO reinforce toxic masculinity. ( Think trad cath moms )
I would add another dimension, toxic masculinity is pretty much the avatar of a form of social PTSD. It is used to break young men into the mold of sacrificial pawns for armies. In a time when wars were led to exterminate the other faction, losing 90% of the men wouldn't matter much as the population would rebound on the next generation as long as the female population survived. By using bullying and emotional abuses they become more prone to accept violence. And, by extension reproduction became the logical reward for the survivors of such conflict as they would have to repopulate. This is also probably the basis for more polygamists tendencies in men and more acceptability toward women bisexuality than for men in society. ( I insist on the probably here). By using the norm to enforce these stereotypes from generation to generation it was used to prime men to become soldiers and women to be more accepting of being forced into sexuality. Hypersexuality was also put forward to make sure the population would rebound and male homosexuality considered overall bad because they needed all the men they could to become walking sperm bank and homosexuality defeated that purpose. That said, those behaviors are not natural, they are brought forth by a hyper militaristic society and war on those scales only came after the land became a thing of value. Witch only happened after humans became sedentary and had enough population to cause competition between tribes. Toxic masculinity is the artifact of those conflicts left in our society, and now they are hurting our relations as the needs of our current society are opposed to those practices.
Here's a bit of irony for anyone who reads this.
Ancient Greek society taught their men to visibly show emotions. All of them. The most beautiful thing to them was to see another man cry. Being emotionless was often seen as a bad thing.
I wonder how centuries later, we went to forcing kids to think that being angry all of the time was cool and should be imitated......
First we get the sugar
Then we get the power
The we get the women
~ Homer Simpson
Man oh man, flashbacks to some of the arguments against that Gillette commercial.
Not sure how we're just stumbling on this channel, but we love it! Subscribed. Keep up the great content!
Are you saying that the Boston Red Sox are toxic? Or just baseball in general?
The only potential upside to changing the term would be to avoid the potential confusion for some with ALL masculinity or men being regarded as toxic. Obviously, understanding the definition of words/terms is essential for their correct usage. However, Toxic Masculinity can quite easily (superficially) be mistakenly read with emphasis on Masculinity - as the whole, rather than Toxic - as a subset. This is, of course, overcome by learning what it actually means. So, thank you for helping to calmly and intelligently define it.
Growing up in Russia, at the time of USSR's collapse, our media was flooded with those action movies of the 80's and early 90's. As mass consciousness was shifting away from collectivism towards social-darwinism promoted by capitalist values, I felt really confused as a child. Movies with Arnold were so cool, but this culture of toxic masculinity around me at the time felt really oppressive: there were strict rules as to how "real men" should behave, and deviation from this was ridiculed upon.
I'm a grown man now, I served in french foreign legion, then came back to my home town and I'm leading a local marxism-leninism group, teaching those who are younger than me about capitalism and communism (on voluntary basis, it's not my paid job). I'm happy to see that this culture of toxic masculinity is slowly fading away, and communist ideas are on the rise again, tho we have a long way ahead of us.
Leon, thank you for this video, I really appreciated the later part of it, where you clearly indicated, that this can not be combated simply by "becoming better" personally. All those social and cultural constructs are born from the economical basis of our societies. Only by changing the very basis we can change this, as to fight a disease one have to fight with it's roots, not with the symptoms.
Also I want to remark, on what you, Leon, say about other societies of Africa, pre-columbian America, etc.: Those societies were in "matriarchy" phase not by choice or some national difference from others, but simply because they were on a lower stage of economical development, as you identified yourself correctly - development of animal husbandry and agriculture makes shift from matriarchal families to patriarchal families possible, due to development of means of production. All this in great detail discussed in Engels "Origin of the Family...", and this work of Engels should be everyone's first book on history and marxism.
And I don't always agree with you, Leon, especially when you remark about USSR on the podcast, but what you do here on youtube is beneficial for the humanity as a whole. Keep doing it, please!
I'm a sociologist, and I will refer people to this video. Great work.
As a gay man, I find this topic very interesting.
Lovely explanation of the "Emotional Strength" quality, which is actually incredibly weak to only have a single expression of all emotions.
If we took this approach to life, we would still be hunting with our bare hands and eating all food raw in spite of the huge advances of fire and tools!!
Sam Spade from the Maltese Falcon represents the proper masculinity.
Conan is like a prototype of gutts from berserk
Guts is much more deconstructive of toxic masculinity tbh
Watched to see if I was an asshole for loving Conan the barbarian.
Turns out l'm not. At least not for this reason...
I think this video is fantastic, and has me thinking about the hierarchies discussed and how they infect modern societies. I consider myself anarchy-aligned politically, I’d love to hear you talk more about anarchy and horizontal organisation more, if that’s your inclination 😊
Crom does not have time to question his questioning thoughts.. and then question those... Crom is!
I'd love to see a Conan Remake where Conan learns to let go of these traits and becomes truly heroic over the course of the story.
Courage, kindness, sympathy, and protectiveness are what masculinity truly is. But if you ask me, every man should be able to open up to their emotions as much as any Woman. I am a man who opens doors for people of all sexes and ages because that is a nice thing to do. I try to be nice to anyone I meet. But I’m also in touch with my emotions and can talk feelings with the best of them! It’s natural to get angry but not at the expense of others. If I have a son in the future that is what I will try to teach him. To be courageous and kind, but also sympathetic and to never hide his emotions but to open up and never be afraid to show emotion. Very good and informative video!
This is the first time I've seen the line from Conan in it's original form, otherwise I had only viewed the german dubbed version, which is ironically not dubbed by Schwarzenegger himself (despite him being a native german speaker). In the german version it really appears to be his view. Here, in its original form he quite obviously cites a mantra. So if you ever wondered why Felix and Max found that line so great in 'Senss8" - they absolutely had a different interpretation ;-)
I love the Sense8 reference-this is also the first time I've heard Schwarzenegger's read of that line despite being familiar with it from pop culture, and it's such a weirdly stilted line. It makes Conan come across as damaged goods, whether intentionally or otherwise.
Being a woman in a highly male dominated trade (carpenter) I've only run into 2 true assholes on a constrction site. I think that's it because most men I work with are very secure in their masculinity. Since they don't feel they need to prove their status as men they don't feel threaned by the inclusion of a woman in their traditionally masculine trade and expression.
There's a reason that Jesus was a carpenter...
I was trying to see if anyone made a video on Toxic Masculinity and certain series I like, and I was disappointed that I had to scroll a bit to find a video that gave a clear vision of what toxic masculinity is.
Walter White comes to mind....
*** flashbacks of when he was universally praised and applauded ***
*flashes back to now*
And the backlash against Skyler for criticizing him was a perfect example of the response of the toxic masculine responding to criticism by doubling down.
idk, I think he only uses his status as a provider as an excuse for doing something horrible he secretely enjoys.
"You're God Damn Right" -Walter White from Breaking Bad
This is kind of funny, because I had a kind of comment fest with a person here on YT a few years back, that featured pretty much the exact structure of argument in this video, right down to the Conan references. I call it a comment fest, because the person that I was talking to about masculinity, seemed to think I was pretty much speaking a foreign language. It's nice to know this kind of thinking is getting around more, parallel thinking and all :D
Awesome critique, thank you.
I don't think Conan learning about the sword was, well, toxic-free but it was less toxic than the Machinations of Thulsa Doom. In the end Conan finds love and when the height of toxic masculinity takes her form him he kills and burns it.
God bless you, friend. Thank you so so much for all your hard work.
9/10 Not enough weirdly homoerotic imagery. Toxic masculinity loves "admiring" the male form ("gains").
Oh for sure.
I love that you ended with the theme for the 90s Conan cartoon.
I've always been intrigued by the varying degrees of toxic masculinity. Like as a kid I was a bit of an incel piece of shit but I still understood implicitly that things like rape were wrong. I often wonder why I had such a viewpoint and how it changed to understanding also that women don't owe me anything.
I feel like Toxic Masculinity is enforced by people of all genders. Otherwise I feel like I agree with your basic assertions.
Just like patriarchy is a system, it seems like the system involves all players. Am I incorrect here?
This is the kind of video about toxic masculinity we need. Not one that attacks men or attempts to control us, but wants to help us, because ultimately the toxic brand of masculinity is harmful to men
Very informative. Honesty I probably wouldn’t have given a topic like this much chance but your ideas were so well structured and articulated I found it very engaging! Your videos are always very good.
The background music at the beginning goes through my head when I run errands
Swallow that bread pill, Leon.