Nice bit of kit! But do not test PV Voltage with it as it only goes up to 300V DC AND the CAT IV Rating is only 300V For PV you need at least 1000V DC Range Probes also need to be rated for 1000V
That product looks like something for educational/home use but with a pro price tag. It only goes to 10A dc but looks like it should handle 200. Try the N2780 probe from Keysight - 500A AC/DC (but does need a scope..).
You really think the customer deliberately went for a “budget” board? The house doesn’t suggest that. How about, he got fleeced by a contractor who charged him the Earth and went cheap with the electrics to maximise his profit.
At the end of the day the house owner should have employed a qualified electrician to do the board change and electrics, not a builder or a kitchen fitter, which is obviously who has done this budget installation.
@@HustwickHe wasn't a sparky, he was a builder or a kitchen fitter. That's why he's put so many circuits on a Type AC RCD in a split load board, he doesn't understand the finer points of electrics, or even the basics like earthing metal faceplates and light fittings. I'll wager that no testing was done beyond "the lighting and sockets are working" and the EIC is a complete fabrication.
From the USA, I am amazed a the degree of thoroughness with which professionals perform an EICR in the UK. Nice catch that the RCD was occasionally tripping from the sum of the ten attached circuit leakage currents, none of which was, by itself, dangerous.
You should see the UK electrical regulations documentation. That said, I've seen a German electrical installation and it made even Artisan's pretty CU wiring look messy.
@@xmfclick UK regulations are crazy. They are ludicrously complicated yet they do not cover important points like the number of circuits per RCD. Enforcement is poor. My neighbours rented their flat to the local council who decided a new CU was needed. When it was sold the new tenant brought in an electrician who found brass switch plates on unearthed wooden boxes, and wall lights wired from the nearest wall sockets.
Absolutely loved this video, brilliant to see how methodical and precise you carry out your work. Brilliant the talk through measurements and procedures for a novice like me. Thank you
@@skreechyIt's already in the regs that in most cases an RCBO board should be fitted, unless you have a good reason for installing a split load RCD board, which is very unlikely in a residential property.
To be honest, start of the video I was thinking they don't understand RCD trips but Luke's rant proved that he does understand it. Trying to find which circuit is at fault if there is a N-E low resistance can be hard work, usually drop the neutrals out and IR each circuit but using a clamp meter such as shown can really help. Using it around L+N at the incomer will only show up a reading proportional to any other circuit is actually drawing power though. You could just use the clamp meter around the individual CPC/earths at the board which is the same as clamping around L+N, then again that doesn't help if the earth leak is to a water pipe. Well done guys.
Thought the same thing when they were switching off the breaker and measuring leakage getting half the story, I am pretty sure they were only single pole breakers.
Understanding Kirchoff's Current Law is key. And it is very simple to understand. If you are an electrician and you cannot analyse a circuit in that way, then you need to get your head round it. Spend time practising analysing current flows in simple circuits. Do it until it becomes second nature.
I can see on your Megger that you have it set to Type A mode for RCD Testing - however the board contains a CPN RC263/030 - which is a Type AC RCD. Also amendment 2 of 18th edition states AC only testing should be used to test an RCD of any type, to determine if it is functioning and tripping within the required times. What I find quite funny is you even state later in the video how DC can blind an RCD and prevent it tripping - which is exactly what you did when testing a Type AC RCD with the tester set to Type A mode. Yes the board was cheap and a bit nasty, and a ridiculous number of circuits were run off each RCD....however the RCD itself probably does work for AC fault currents, just you were testing in the wrong mode.
It's all very well being able to spew out a few key facts that are repeated by instructors "DC can blind an RCD", but I wonder how many electricians *_really_* understand RCDs and how they work. I have come across a 'professional' electrician on eFixx state that the RCD protects from earth faults from upstream of the device, which they do not and this can be easily determined by drawing out a circuit diagram, placing on the faults in different locations and analysing the currents. Then we had someone from Artisan claiming that a coiled up extension leads gets hot because of magnetic induction. There seems to be a basic problem in the ability of electricians to be able to perform simple circuit analysis. And don't get me started on the crap spewed out by that well known American electrician on UA-cam. I have lost count of the number of times I have had to correct his inaccurate statements.
@@blower1 No, both electrical engineers and electronic engineers both have the same level of proficiency in this area. Both are taught the same fundamental subjects on circuit theory and magnetics, electrical machines. It's the difference between an electrical or electronics engineer and an electrician.
@@deang5622 In this instance i referred to an electrician as a 'electrical engineer' (wrongly or rightly...more wrongly imo :D ) - but yes it is the difference btwn an electrician and an electrical & electronics engineer.
On Hagar boards you can replace an RCD with a special connector to allow you to replace the MCB's with RCBO's. Way cheaper than changing the entire board
European boards (including UK) all use standard DIN rails, so any brand modules fit any board . Problem is that single pole breakers are usually 18mm wide each, RCBOs and other dual pole gear is usually 36mm wide each, and that board was packed almost completely, so they needed a larger board .
@@johndododoe1411 RCBOs in the UK are almost always18mm, not 36mm wide. It's RCDs that are 36mm. Also, most UK RCBOs are single pole, although some makes have dual pole 18mm RCBOs.
Had the same issue last year and trying to explain earth leakage to a client was hard work. But glad I changed the board for a RCBO and no issues 😊👍 Most appliances leak but it all adds up
Absolutely agree get rid of split loads modern electronics have AC/DC leakage the cumulative effect has grown over time..Type B or F is the way to go but manufacturers as you say need to make them cheaper.
It's not the cumulative effect that is the issue. That can and still happens with type B or F RCDs. The cumulative effect is the DC leakage current produced by each load which sums together. Even RCD types designed to handle DC leakage currents have an upper limit on the amount of DC leakage they can tolerate. The issue is that of type AC RCDs not being able to handle any DC leakage current, AND many modern appliances, such as washing machines, dishwashers which incorporate variable speed drives, and computers producing DC leakage current which the type AC RCD cannot handle. It's simply a question of using the correct type of RCD. My view is, Type AC should be completely phased out. There should be a mandate issued that Type AC RCDs in existing installations should be removed and replaced with a B or F wherever possible. And where it is claimed there is no alternative for the Type AC that is installed, the owner should be made to demonstrate a safety check has been performed by a qualified electrician and the magnitude of the DC leakage current measured with appliances in the property running to prove that there is no DC leakage current present. This is an easy test to perform. IE. Prove the continued use of that type AC RCD with that particular set of appliances in the house, is safe and that the RCD will trip when required.
@@deang5622 may be I did not explain myself well I think the point is the same type AC RCD should have been phased out long ago. Yes of course there are upper limits of leakage current both AC and DC that type B and F can handle. The UK will head towards larger boards with more dedicated circuits for specific pieces of equipment like we have in the USA given that both AC and DC current can be cumulative.
Even if this is a fairly substantial installation I'm surprised there's so much combined earth leakage. Where I live (central Europe) it's still fairly common to have one whole-house RCD and I've never seen nuisance tripping like that. The one time I had utterly unpredictable RCD trips it was a faulty RCD. Old 100 mA RCD from the early 80s, tested the whole installation, IR wasn't great (some VIR circuits left in situ, came in at 8-9 MΩ) but nothing terrible. Replaced the RCD with a new 30 mA, hasn't tripped ever since.
This is why i only put rcbo's in nowadays. Problem now is that ive got loads & loads of mcb's lying around. Another note.... ive had a couple of issues where a neutral to earth fault would stop the rcd functioning correctly.
Your quite rightly saying that CPN is a budget make and was adding to the issues and yet when you change boards you use Fuse Box which is also a budget range?
Fuse Box may be a budget range, but I've found them to be fairly reliable in practise. More so than BG, for example, which is very common in the UK. I use either Hagar or Schneider for preference.
The issue is that there are too many circuits on each RCD not that it was a budget make. The RCD's can easy be removed and RCBO's fitted rather than fit a new board@@MCKINJO
Well thats a poorly designed system and sums up the lack of Knowledge of many sparks out there installing consumer units. Neither of them RCDs comply as the the leakage on both exceeds the max 9mA of leakage. As correctly diagnosed by Lee that board needs to come out. Good video and its good to see the Artisan guys doing it right. Shame our industry is in a state that work like that shown here has to be re-done. Well done Artisan 👌🏻
@@MCKINJO Split hairs 9..10 fact is neither of them RCDs comply period. Whoever installed that board did not assess the installation neither did they show competence regarding compliance with regs.
It wasn't the sparky's lack of knowledge, it was the builder's or kitchen fitter's lack of knowledge in this case, because that's obviously who did all the shady electrical work and issued the dodgy EIC.
Changing all those MCB is to RCBO’s increases the limit of a collective fault current. Potentially you could have .33 of a Amp flooring to ground before the system would recognise it as a fault. Something worth bearing in mind.
What's wrong with that? A property with many devices can quite easily have 30-50mA of earth leakage on normal usage. Having it all funnelled through two RCDs means nuisance tripping. The 30mA trip is a safety limit to protect people. A human isn't going to have limbs long enough to touch all class I appliances in the house to sink that cumulative leakage current.
I’ll tell you a story. I went to a house where the brother in law had done a board change. The property was TT with a single rod in the garden. The brother in law had got the tails crossed when he was doing it. The home owner hung a picture in the living room and hammered the nail through the neutral and earth. The system had approximately half an amp flowing to ground when I measured it. The tragedy was the owner had 2 beautiful Samoyed dogs. When I complimented her about the dogs she burst into tears. A third dog had died the previous week from a suspected hart attack. It’s kennel was less than a foot from the ground stake. I did not tell the owner what I suspected.
@@demonkey123unfortunately one can't completely legislate against fuckwittery. A ground stake, correctly inserted, will be at a depth where there shouldn't be step voltages between the stake and the transformer. That combined with the incompetent workmanship that caused crossed polarity. That said, the crossed "neutral" and earth by nail would have caused all class I appliances and any bonded plumbing to become live as a result. If RCBOs or RCDs were installed, they'd still trip.
I agree, however my story was intended to highlight the dangers of an excessive unchecked current flowing to earth. An RCD protecting multiple circuits would only allow its maximum rated fault current to flow, while multiple RCBO’s allow a cumulative number of faults to add up to a significant amount of current flowing to earth unchecked. Using multiple RCBO’s doesn’t remove faults, it allows the system to operate under conditions that a conventional RCD protected system will not because it regards the situation as potentially dangerous.
@@demonkey123Assuming there are 10x RCBOs each allowing 29mA to leak to earth, that's 290mA leakage. What's fundamentally unsafe about that? It just means the house is full of leaky electronics. While it's undesirable, it's not inherently dangerous unless its traversing a human. Residual current devices are there to protect people. Circuit breakers are there to protect circuits. Providing the earth leakage doesn't exceed the circuit breaker and isn't flowing through a person, there's no real issue. A trip is only ever desirable if it is going to protect either a person, the circuit or both.
We can see two RCDs, exactly as required by UK regulations, and yes, equipment used is Asian generic produce UKCA certified. Faulty RCD (and any other piece of equipment) needs replacement. In my opinion faulty RCD shall have beed replaced first and then observations made on leakage. Those observation could be improved, and Merel network analyzer unit used, or 24/7 monitoring installed (i.e. Supla), DC and AC leakage could be measured and then calculated per circuit separately. Worth to mention F type RCDs are not intended to protect from DC leakage over 6mA, and would help only when frequency is modified. That is a serious mistake. Only Type B RCDs would guarantee that DC leakage over 6mA would not block the RCD (and some RCDs type A+ used for EVSE that is still a rare product). Not sure if that job was worth 1000s...
Great leakage test video. Ive only fitted 1 split load CU since 2022. Rcbo everything apart from garage 2 circuits. It is. Pointless to it RCD boards. Its a real hassle for the customer. Its hard to believe that was fitted as recently as 2020. Those kitchen sockets are pretty low on the counter. Just stick to 120cm height
IR testing with the cpc disconnected led to the death of a woman, whose legacy led to the launch of the Part-p self certification scheme. A really important everyone should have learnt, keep the cpc connected during IR testing.
Got the same tester from TIS. Soon unreliable I took it back today. U touch it reading changes, u look at it it changes.... Will certainly not use it again. Not found it accurate enough to help. Maybe faulty unit....
Well done great video when you are carrying out this type of work do you find it hard sometimes to explain the issue of earth leakage to your customers or builders , and do you sometimes feel they think you are looking for more work . Thank You.
Tbf, we did get earth leakage clearly explained... by the oven repair guy. The oven NEFF oven was faulty. Still didn't solve the problem but, in checking the isolation switch to the oven, I found the spark had connected it up wrong
I learnt at college to test RCD's in isolation. IE, disconnect the outgoing neutral from the bus, and turn off all the MCBs. I've had issues testing an RCD from a circuit yet when testing it in isolation it passed.
The problem you have got it: If you are testing it in a way that is not representative of a real situation, you are not proving it will pass in a real situation. The RCD needs to trip with an upper limit on the I delta N, and within the required time. If it doesn't trip quickly enough and at the required maximum current level, then you are potentially placing people's lives in danger. In a real situation, the outgoing neutral is not disconnected, and the other MCBs are not turned off, are they? So you have created an artificial situation which does not occur in real life in a consumer unit in normal use. And then you have tested that RCD in that artificial situation. The question for you is, are you just trying to get it to pass, or are you trying to save lives? There's an argument for testing the RCD in the artificial way you have been trained, it is important to ensure that RCD is working as designed. If it is not working as designed within the required limits, then when in a correctly configured CU and installation, it is never going to pass. But you really need to test that RCD as it is in a real life situation, and not the artificial test situation you have created. You and the residents of that property need to be confident that RCD will trip quickly enough and at a low enough current threshold to prevent the person being electrocuted. What is more important: a) Getting a pass on the RCD so you can pass the EICR b) Demonstrating that the RCD does it job properly and prevents somebody being electrocuted?
But a normal house has 1 or 2 30mA RCDs and it work’s absolutely fine. The number of RCD’s is fine. Criticism of the CB/RCD brand is BS. RCBO upgrade should not really be needed, it seems like fishing for work, or to put it another way; suggesting an expensive sledge hammer to crack a nut.
Had an intermittent RCD tripping fault, electrician changed my 5 MCBs snd shared RCD switch for 5 RCBOs and a main switch, told me it would be cheaper than him spending the whole day trying to find out what was wrong, and that the rcbo will help identify what circuit the problem was on and that i can then do my own troubleshooting by moving equipment onto different circuits. Figured out it was my computer monitor in the end.
Thats a lot of load on the bottom RCD. Over here in Malta, we used to have intermittent tripping due to inverters on A/C units and on the freezer. The solution was to use a type F RCD.
type f rcd´s aren´t that expensive anymore well at least here in germany from siemens an type F is around 50€ and an type A at about 35€ and for just 15€ more i install an type f for the better safety, type b well thats another story they are still like 250€ and more
Type A RCBO's here are around £20, type F is unavailable as an RCBO, only as an RCD and then is £100's. Type B are very hard to find as resellers here in the UK are complete morons and keep labelling Type A, B curve RCBO's as 'Type B' - so when you look for Type B rcbo's or RCD all you ever find is Type A, B curve.
Should have gone for the £30,000 rewire! (around the median annual UK household income). I'm sure AE would have completed that in a week or less too. Material cost ~£800?
You want to see a rats nest you go to Australia and open fire resistant board that everything is just simply screwed onto front with all the wires sticking out the back
In a new build house from FH 2020... MCB on 2 RCD devices. I would have PAID for the upgrade to AFDD + SPD. Also pulled 6mm to the detached garage. Again, would have paid for an upgrade to the cable to make adding a car charger easier.
Most new builds are designed by the client, and are designed 1-2 years prior the the current regulations. It’s not always the electrical contractor at fault, their job is to do as the spec says. As always we can advise they do things different but if you have 40+ houses like some sites I work on an extra few hundred quid per house stacks up quickly, so they tend to avoid. Speaking from experience on this, it’s an impossible task to speak sense into the senseless 😂
These RCDs are banned in Australia now. They were banned in 2018. They came back as "pulset" - which have a bad habit of failing internally. Also can't add more than 4 final sub-circuits to an old RCD here - because of this reason... Too much leakage.
Van battery's a bit low. Should be 12.8V once the surface charge is dissipated (doesn't take much load to do that - interior light or just the key on ACC will do it pretty quickly). You'll want to get that load tested before the first cold snap.
Nothing wrong with the board as a piece of equipment, it meets all BS standards. It’s the design of the installation that is the problem. Swap out the RCD and MCBs for RCBOs for less than £150 and a couple of hours work.
Ah yes but then you make no UA-cam money, send two guys in to spend a day stating the obvious at 130 plus an hour and then recommend an entirely new board. God help the poor customer here. A couple of RCBOs as you say couple of hours work job done, but that does not pay for the overheads, the vans, the UA-cam film guy etc. No wonder title says it costs you thousands
Clutching at straws when you diagnose the issue on the half of the installation that has more earth leakage that has the majority of the load. Also when you’re only issue with the cert is the cut out that the clearly shouldn’t have looked at anyway
I always put a limitation on the test sheets when it asks for the main fuse size as how do I know what size it is just because it says 100A or 80A means nothing as someone could have put a different size fuse in the carrier and we should not be able to remove that fuse as it should have a seal
Spotted USB sockets in the kitchen. That will be accounting for some if not all of the leakage and if they've got a few more dotted around, easily make up the 20ma leakage on one side of that CU.
Content of video very informative excellent explanations of faults found, BUT who was let loose in the editing stages and thought it good to drown out the dialogues with so called music? 😢
In many countries that initially went with separate RCBs, the original concept was one RCB for the whole house, then recently 2 to ensure some lights will still work in an emergency . Maximum breakers per RCB is a fairly new idea .
Not all, but lots of modern electronics leak through filter caps on power supplies. Normal operation, and not a problem normally, but load lots on one rcb and this happens.
Switch mode power supplies that reference ground and EMC filters are the most common ones. It’s not strictly “intentional” but rather unavoidable would be a better term.
For EMC compliance class X and class Y capacitors are fitted between L, N & E. Each device (PC PSU, audio equipment etc) may add a few mA to earth leakage. I was involved in the design of a large non-domestic LED display where we fitted 32 off small DC power supplies. Each had it own EMC capacitors, and a soon we tried to power it up, the 30mA RCD on the supply tripped. We had to remove the internal EMC filters and fit 1 external EMC filter to each set of 4 PSUs. At home I had a cheap Tesco DVD player. It had a two wire mains connection (no earth), X capacitors to its metal case, and a switch in the neutral. When it was "turned off" one could get a slight shock due to the L-E capacitor. I notified the supplier of this design fault, but had no acknowledgement.
@@BrainW33a Many an old Sky box has zapped me over the years, thanks to it's EMC filter caps putting halfwave rectified mains AC out on various connections.
How I understand it you took the earth off the backbox and connected it to the switch. The regs state only a backbox with 1 fixed lug doesn’t need a earth to it, however here because of the isolator type lug you have now left this backbox without a earth, which reg does this comply with?
Because the regulations require it. The RCD must trip and cut the power off in under 300mS. It is to prevent the person being electrocuted, if they happen to be in contact with the circuit.
These days, one should only accept a fully itemised quote with complete BOM that include copies of up to date trade certification, insurance etc and then further check them out as part of due diligence.
Great, except the safety of yourself! I see you working touching the board without gloves! I know is a pain but it is a must! Another thing why would you suggest the most expensive option, there was a space to add 1 more RCD,
We have the rcbo version of that board and it is a delight. A led comes on when you open the cover too. It was being promoted by cef at the time. It certainly wasn't budget end. Very good video sharing the issues of earth leakage. Much appreciated
@@peterigrenyi9176 I'm surprised you say that. It has everything a homeowner looks for, and the automatic lights are really helpful. The rcbos and rccb have worked flawlessly since installation. And it was recommended by our electrician. If this is a budget brand then why do people need to pay more?
@atkt62 just not built as well as more expensive brands. Also would expect a struggle with customer service if there is a problem. From my own experience with this board, terminals not great, screws on few mcbs/rcbos damaged when tightening withing torque limit, lid never sits quiet right, etc. I also expect more recalls on mcbs etc too. Just like wylex, craptree etc. Would much rather fit Hager. Cost probably not far apart.
@@peterigrenyi9176 I understand your pov. However, we are 3 years into our cpn cudis rcbo board, not one issue. Our electrician says he fits these as standard. I guess everyone has their preferred brand. Look at the cars on the road as an analogy.
There's no way that was a grand, look at the amount of circuits . Alarm bells start ringing here looking at the size and quality of the house . At first I thought the sparky may have recommended rcbo etc and the customer didn't want it but then looking at the quality of fittings and lights and then the consumer unit install shows different . I also suspect the RCD is rated at 63a not 80 so I bet at times that bottom one is overloaded also . As a temp fix, RCD change and move a circuit to the top bar such as the oven. However a new board or rcbo conversion is definitely what is needed .
OK...yeah.. it should have been a RCBO board in the first place, but it isn't. Why is the go-to solution to replace the board, when the problem could be resolved by simply adding another RCD and splitting the bottom row?
@@jonathanbuzzard1376 Hey 👋, I'm not sure if you are referring to the mounting rail, the MCBs etc clip onto, or the Bus (aka Buzz) Bar that connects the Line from the RCD to the MCBs? Presumably it's the latter, but correct me if wrong. The Bus bar is very cheap, readily available and easy to cut etc. There would be no problem cutting the existing bar to split it; put in a new RCD and a new Bus bar, splitting the MCBs between the two; and take a separate feed from the Main switch and Neutral bar to the new RCD. Oh.... perhaps you mean another Neutral bar??? Ahh yes, that might be a problem alright. 😅
Heating elements in Ovens - cook-tops - Refrigerator defrost elements Electric Water Heaters - Oil-filled immersion heaters -- any appliance with a Heating Element is a primary suspect And having so many combined circuits that accumulate a high leakage current is walking a tight rope. The RCBO I use trip at 25Ma I would consider 30Ma too high and a safety hazard - Someone with a heart like a healthy bull may get away with it
What do we expect when testing a socket for polarity, when it proves to be correct on the left side socket but test the right side socket? Futile no? That board is an absolute mess.
I'm a niceic dom inst and fit kitchens and bathrooms as a main business...found this video very helpful as keeps info fresh .. Good job Not sure about the hats though guys 🤔
Hello lads i have never come across that make of board before you would have thought they would have installed an RCBO board in the first place rip it out and change it then all will be hunky dory it needed you lads on the job at the start love your high standards of work well done i say.
Why do you so often have a single-phase housesupply in England, here in Germany, where I live, we have a three-phase house connection in every house since the 70s or earlier
You have the tester set to the wrong test setting when conducting the rcd test and also an rcd should be tested with the load side disconnect as existing fault current can affect the times and mA and not give you the true readings of the rcd.
I'm glad I am still on ceramic wire fuses. Two blown fuses in 30 years and then that was because of old type light bulbs that are no longer in existence. This lot🙄one electrician to test and one to film.
I'm suprised both of you don't use charriots to move around too! Ceramic rewirable fuses certainly works but they can't compete with how fast an RCD or RCBO trips in a fault condition and the safety such can provide. I saw cable insulation melt/get brittle because of continuous heat up circles without a fuse blowing up...
so many new builds are still having these double bank split load rcd boards installed in 5-6 bed houses, I've worked for companies putting them in. Never understand why they can't just add a bit more budget and get an rcbo board. Like Lee said they need to ditch split load boards all together but will they? There needs to be a dangerous situation occur for this to happen but most the time its just a nuisance
Why is there intentional earth leakage. I thought earth was only for emergency. Am a utter layman as far as electric installation. So if anyone could explain it would be great.
There are components in the supply (Class x & Y capacitors) of any equipment using electronic power supplies or control to stop harmonic energy getting back into the supply network. As the amount of electronics and high power switching controls increase so does the amount of interference pushed towards the DNO distribution. It also annoys the heck out of radio Hams as our licensed frequencies are jammed by the muck.
For my learning if you have downlighters in a room under a bathroom or wet room the downlighters should have an ip rating ? I think i understand downlighters in a bathroom should have an ip rating ?
CPC disconnected during IR test is a really big failure, please read up on why you should not do that. Recommending the board to be changed when it could have RCBOs installed.
These guys are always looking for anything to charge lots of money to customers. For them, everything is dodgy. All they had to do is put another rcd split the bottom board into 2 rcd. Done. But of course, that's dodgy for you to find the same brand rcd Why its cheap brand. By the way, is it a problem to use a cheap brand? Will that make u more safe? They come with bs compilance anyway.
Just swap the lot out with RCBOs of the same manufacturer. That will also give them more space for the future. Also, just what is it that's considered to be so wrong with the CU unit itself? Hardly the CU's fault that there's cumulative leakage currents; that's down to the fundamentally inappropriate choice of using a dual RCD board, especially bad in such a large property.
How would you fit a bunch of RCBOs in that overcrowded board? Also, they might get a discount buying a premade board with 40+ RCBOs already installed and connected together, instead of buying a wholesale crate of 40 RCBOs that need to be put into the box . Pricing structures tend to encourage complete replacement on every upgrade .
@@johndododoe1411 Are you aware that an RCBO takes just one slot, and that means they actually take less space as you can remove the RCDs? RCBOs take up less space than dual-split RCD boards. Indeed, you get 4 slots back. Also, the physical process of clipping an RCBO into place and connecting the bus bar takes no time. It's the wiring and testing of circuits that takes more time.
@@TheEulerID My guess is the bus bar is cut for the RCD's and getting replacement bus bars is probably not an option so new consumer unit. Frankly it's a shame that you can't get the spares for upgrades. My board could easily be upgraded from 16th to 18th apart from the two plastic covers for the breakers as it's otherwise a metal board and I could upgrade the none RCD side to RCBO's. Though I am quite happy that the earthshield wired double outlet in my server cupboard is not on an RCD thank you very much.
@@jonathanbuzzard1376 You can get replacement bus bars without any trouble whatsoever. They are freely available, including from suppliers like Screwfix or TLC, and they are available in any length you might reasonably use. If necessary, they can be cut to length. If you are talking about metal blank plates for gaps in the breakers, then those are also freely available as well. Of course the break in the neutral bar (for a dual RCD board would have to be bridged with an appropriate copper jumper.
Housing changed our board a few years ago and we had nothing but problems. Turn something on (a light, the kettle, etc) rcbo would trip, not just once but multiple times, reset and trip again. I've changed them all back to (same value) mcb's and no more problems.
Is a split RCD board ever the answer these days compared to an RCBO board? Having worked on and installed both I find the RCBO board to be much easier all round, and I find it hard to believe that the overall cost will be much less with the split RCD board. With a decent quality but low cost RCBO board like the ones from Fusebox, what sort of difference in price are we looking at for say a 20 way board install compared to a similar quality split RCD board, both running type A RCD/RCBOs? It can't be more than 10 or maybe 20% surely?
@@SBBUK Yeah I know... But in this case, surely if the spark had told the customer the reality of how many circuits will be lost just because one of them has a fault, then you'd think the (IMO) relatively small extra cost could be easily justified. Not to mention the cumulative leakage causing nuisance tripping. But that assumes the spark actually cared which seems unlikely, although it's unfair to speculate around the circumstances which led to this rather poor design choice. Obviously some people have no choice but to go for the absolute cheapest option, but that house didn't seem like somewhere you would install the cheapest option. Then again there are people who own fancy cars and install cheap tyres made of chinesium and wonder why they can't keep then on the road! I reckon kids should be taught about "value" as a core subject at school. Not just low vs high cost but actual value!
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lol "Potential dealer" you couldn't resist that one.
Just realised ...@@michaeljarcher
Nice bit of kit!
But do not test PV Voltage with it as it only goes up to 300V DC AND the CAT IV Rating is only 300V
For PV you need at least 1000V DC Range
Probes also need to be rated for 1000V
That product looks like something for educational/home use but with a pro price tag. It only goes to 10A dc but looks like it should handle 200. Try the N2780 probe from Keysight - 500A AC/DC (but does need a scope..).
You really think the customer deliberately went for a “budget” board? The house doesn’t suggest that. How about, he got fleeced by a contractor who charged him the Earth and went cheap with the electrics to maximise his profit.
Exactly
This. Cowboy sparky based his price as he pulled up on the driveway for the first time.
He’s just getting click bate now ! Interesting title boring content !
At the end of the day the house owner should have employed a qualified electrician to do the board change and electrics, not a builder or a kitchen fitter, which is obviously who has done this budget installation.
@@HustwickHe wasn't a sparky, he was a builder or a kitchen fitter. That's why he's put so many circuits on a Type AC RCD in a split load board, he doesn't understand the finer points of electrics, or even the basics like earthing metal faceplates and light fittings. I'll wager that no testing was done beyond "the lighting and sockets are working" and the EIC is a complete fabrication.
From the USA, I am amazed a the degree of thoroughness with which professionals perform an EICR in the UK. Nice catch that the RCD was occasionally tripping from the sum of the ten attached circuit leakage currents, none of which was, by itself, dangerous.
Yea europeqns have standards😂❤
Glad you see how professional we are haha
You should see the UK electrical regulations documentation. That said, I've seen a German electrical installation and it made even Artisan's pretty CU wiring look messy.
@@xmfclick thats what i honestly thought too 😉
@@xmfclick UK regulations are crazy. They are ludicrously complicated yet they do not cover important points like the number of circuits per RCD. Enforcement is poor. My neighbours rented their flat to the local council who decided a new CU was needed. When it was sold the new tenant brought in an electrician who found brass switch plates on unearthed wooden boxes, and wall lights wired from the nearest wall sockets.
Absolutely loved this video, brilliant to see how methodical and precise you carry out your work. Brilliant the talk through measurements and procedures for a novice like me. Thank you
In the The Netherlands your only allowed 4 breakers per RCD, so in this case the customer should have had at lease 6 RCD’s.
We need that in our regs!
would that just encourage people to put too much on each breaker?
@@skreechyIt's already in the regs that in most cases an RCBO board should be fitted, unless you have a good reason for installing a split load RCD board, which is very unlikely in a residential property.
It’s 3 here in New Zealand. Often you’ll find a 45 way board in a 3 bedroom house 🤣
It’s 2 for Germany.
To be honest, start of the video I was thinking they don't understand RCD trips but Luke's rant proved that he does understand it. Trying to find which circuit is at fault if there is a N-E low resistance can be hard work, usually drop the neutrals out and IR each circuit but using a clamp meter such as shown can really help. Using it around L+N at the incomer will only show up a reading proportional to any other circuit is actually drawing power though. You could just use the clamp meter around the individual CPC/earths at the board which is the same as clamping around L+N, then again that doesn't help if the earth leak is to a water pipe. Well done guys.
Both of these guys have gained so much knowledge about these things
Thought the same thing when they were switching off the breaker and measuring leakage getting half the story, I am pretty sure they were only single pole breakers.
Clamping on the CPC doesn't show leakage to earth via other routes such as pipework etc.
@@farmersteve129And clamping all L+N together measures exactly what the RCD measures, just don't include E in the bundle .
Understanding Kirchoff's Current Law is key.
And it is very simple to understand.
If you are an electrician and you cannot analyse a circuit in that way, then you need to get your head round it.
Spend time practising analysing current flows in simple circuits.
Do it until it becomes second nature.
I can see on your Megger that you have it set to Type A mode for RCD Testing - however the board contains a CPN RC263/030 - which is a Type AC RCD.
Also amendment 2 of 18th edition states AC only testing should be used to test an RCD of any type, to determine if it is functioning and tripping within the required times.
What I find quite funny is you even state later in the video how DC can blind an RCD and prevent it tripping - which is exactly what you did when testing a Type AC RCD with the tester set to Type A mode.
Yes the board was cheap and a bit nasty, and a ridiculous number of circuits were run off each RCD....however the RCD itself probably does work for AC fault currents, just you were testing in the wrong mode.
I noticed that too. I suppose they have too make it worse than it is for their UA-cam channel 😉🤣
It's all very well being able to spew out a few key facts that are repeated by instructors "DC can blind an RCD", but I wonder how many electricians *_really_* understand RCDs and how they work.
I have come across a 'professional' electrician on eFixx state that the RCD protects from earth faults from upstream of the device, which they do not and this can be easily determined by drawing out a circuit diagram, placing on the faults in different locations and analysing the currents.
Then we had someone from Artisan claiming that a coiled up extension leads gets hot because of magnetic induction.
There seems to be a basic problem in the ability of electricians to be able to perform simple circuit analysis.
And don't get me started on the crap spewed out by that well known American electrician on UA-cam.
I have lost count of the number of times I have had to correct his inaccurate statements.
@@deang5622 That's the difference between an electrical engineer and an electronics engineer with a degree - such as myself.
@@blower1 No, both electrical engineers and electronic engineers both have the same level of proficiency in this area. Both are taught the same fundamental subjects on circuit theory and magnetics, electrical machines.
It's the difference between an electrical or electronics engineer and an electrician.
@@deang5622 In this instance i referred to an electrician as a 'electrical engineer' (wrongly or rightly...more wrongly imo :D ) - but yes it is the difference btwn an electrician and an electrical & electronics engineer.
On Hagar boards you can replace an RCD with a special connector to allow you to replace the MCB's with RCBO's. Way cheaper than changing the entire board
European boards (including UK) all use standard DIN rails, so any brand modules fit any board . Problem is that single pole breakers are usually 18mm wide each, RCBOs and other dual pole gear is usually 36mm wide each, and that board was packed almost completely, so they needed a larger board .
@@johndododoe1411 RCBOs in the UK are almost always18mm, not 36mm wide. It's RCDs that are 36mm. Also, most UK RCBOs are single pole, although some makes have dual pole 18mm RCBOs.
Had the same issue last year and trying to explain earth leakage to a client was hard work. But glad I changed the board for a RCBO and no issues 😊👍
Most appliances leak but it all adds up
Trying to explain earth leakage to other sparks is hard enough 😂
It is never the easiest to explain to them but they do eventually understand
3:58 looks like your testing a type AC RCD with the tester in type A mode - this is likely to be saturating the core of the RCD.
Bro nice spotit 😂😂
Absolutely agree get rid of split loads modern electronics have AC/DC leakage the cumulative effect has grown over time..Type B or F is the way to go but manufacturers as you say need to make them cheaper.
Type B and F RCDs do not come as RCBOs, so would have to be installed as split loads.
It's not the cumulative effect that is the issue. That can and still happens with type B or F RCDs.
The cumulative effect is the DC leakage current produced by each load which sums together. Even RCD types designed to handle DC leakage currents have an upper limit on the amount of DC leakage they can tolerate.
The issue is that of type AC RCDs not being able to handle any DC leakage current, AND many modern appliances, such as washing machines, dishwashers which incorporate variable speed drives, and computers producing DC leakage current which the type AC RCD cannot handle.
It's simply a question of using the correct type of RCD.
My view is, Type AC should be completely phased out.
There should be a mandate issued that Type AC RCDs in existing installations should be removed and replaced with a B or F wherever possible.
And where it is claimed there is no alternative for the Type AC that is installed, the owner should be made to demonstrate a safety check has been performed by a qualified electrician and the magnitude of the DC leakage current measured with appliances in the property running to prove that there is no DC leakage current present. This is an easy test to perform.
IE. Prove the continued use of that type AC RCD with that particular set of appliances in the house, is safe and that the RCD will trip when required.
@@deang5622 may be I did not explain myself well I think the point is the same type AC RCD should have been phased out long ago. Yes of course there are upper limits of leakage current both AC and DC that type B and F can handle. The UK will head towards larger boards with more dedicated circuits for specific pieces of equipment like we have in the USA given that both AC and DC current can be cumulative.
Really interesting to see how you test for this and then diagnose/fix the issues. Good video.
Should have got one of your £30k rewires🤑
Even if this is a fairly substantial installation I'm surprised there's so much combined earth leakage. Where I live (central Europe) it's still fairly common to have one whole-house RCD and I've never seen nuisance tripping like that. The one time I had utterly unpredictable RCD trips it was a faulty RCD. Old 100 mA RCD from the early 80s, tested the whole installation, IR wasn't great (some VIR circuits left in situ, came in at 8-9 MΩ) but nothing terrible. Replaced the RCD with a new 30 mA, hasn't tripped ever since.
This is why i only put rcbo's in nowadays.
Problem now is that ive got loads & loads of mcb's lying around.
Another note.... ive had a couple of issues where a neutral to earth fault would stop the rcd functioning correctly.
Hopefully N-E faults should trip RCBs and RCBOs, because that's a massive leak right there !
Swap some circuits around between the two boards to spread the earth leakage between both RCD’s, job done.
Should you do a ramp test on the suspect RCD?
Your quite rightly saying that CPN is a budget make and was adding to the issues and yet when you change boards you use Fuse Box which is also a budget range?
But if its rcbos its budget and splitting the leakage to individual rcbos
Fuse Box may be a budget range, but I've found them to be fairly reliable in practise. More so than BG, for example, which is very common in the UK. I use either Hagar or Schneider for preference.
The issue is that there are too many circuits on each RCD not that it was a budget make. The RCD's can easy be removed and RCBO's fitted rather than fit a new board@@MCKINJO
I totally agree, buit this was a CPN board. 'I don't think the issue here is that make buit the method used.@@cobalt49
@@davidexley3110 I know that. What I'm saying fusebox May be budget but it rectifies the problem
Well thats a poorly designed system and sums up the lack of Knowledge of many sparks out there installing consumer units.
Neither of them RCDs comply as the the leakage on both exceeds the max 9mA of leakage.
As correctly diagnosed by Lee that board needs to come out.
Good video and its good to see the Artisan guys doing it right. Shame our industry is in a state that work like that shown here has to be re-done.
Well done Artisan 👌🏻
Thank you for the kind words, we are glad you enjoyed the video
I thought it was 30% rating of the rcd, so 30ma would be 10mA?
@@MCKINJO Split hairs 9..10 fact is neither of them RCDs comply period. Whoever installed that board did not assess the installation neither did they show competence regarding compliance with regs.
@@rattlehead85 always do an eicr before any work
It wasn't the sparky's lack of knowledge, it was the builder's or kitchen fitter's lack of knowledge in this case, because that's obviously who did all the shady electrical work and issued the dodgy EIC.
Changing all those MCB is to RCBO’s increases the limit of a collective fault current. Potentially you could have .33 of a Amp flooring to ground before the system would recognise it as a fault. Something worth bearing in mind.
What's wrong with that? A property with many devices can quite easily have 30-50mA of earth leakage on normal usage. Having it all funnelled through two RCDs means nuisance tripping. The 30mA trip is a safety limit to protect people. A human isn't going to have limbs long enough to touch all class I appliances in the house to sink that cumulative leakage current.
I’ll tell you a story. I went to a house where the brother in law had done a board change. The property was TT with a single rod in the garden. The brother in law had got the tails crossed when he was doing it. The home owner hung a picture in the living room and hammered the nail through the neutral and earth. The system had approximately half an amp flowing to ground when I measured it. The tragedy was the owner had 2 beautiful Samoyed dogs. When I complimented her about the dogs she burst into tears. A third dog had died the previous week from a suspected hart attack. It’s kennel was less than a foot from the ground stake. I did not tell the owner what I suspected.
@@demonkey123unfortunately one can't completely legislate against fuckwittery. A ground stake, correctly inserted, will be at a depth where there shouldn't be step voltages between the stake and the transformer. That combined with the incompetent workmanship that caused crossed polarity. That said, the crossed "neutral" and earth by nail would have caused all class I appliances and any bonded plumbing to become live as a result. If RCBOs or RCDs were installed, they'd still trip.
I agree, however my story was intended to highlight the dangers of an excessive unchecked current flowing to earth. An RCD protecting multiple circuits would only allow its maximum rated fault current to flow, while multiple RCBO’s allow a cumulative number of faults to add up to a significant amount of current flowing to earth unchecked. Using multiple RCBO’s doesn’t remove faults, it allows the system to operate under conditions that a conventional RCD protected system will not because it regards the situation as potentially dangerous.
@@demonkey123Assuming there are 10x RCBOs each allowing 29mA to leak to earth, that's 290mA leakage. What's fundamentally unsafe about that? It just means the house is full of leaky electronics. While it's undesirable, it's not inherently dangerous unless its traversing a human. Residual current devices are there to protect people. Circuit breakers are there to protect circuits. Providing the earth leakage doesn't exceed the circuit breaker and isn't flowing through a person, there's no real issue. A trip is only ever desirable if it is going to protect either a person, the circuit or both.
We can see two RCDs, exactly as required by UK regulations, and yes, equipment used is Asian generic produce UKCA certified. Faulty RCD (and any other piece of equipment) needs replacement. In my opinion faulty RCD shall have beed replaced first and then observations made on leakage. Those observation could be improved, and Merel network analyzer unit used, or 24/7 monitoring installed (i.e. Supla), DC and AC leakage could be measured and then calculated per circuit separately. Worth to mention F type RCDs are not intended to protect from DC leakage over 6mA, and would help only when frequency is modified. That is a serious mistake. Only Type B RCDs would guarantee that DC leakage over 6mA would not block the RCD (and some RCDs type A+ used for EVSE that is still a rare product). Not sure if that job was worth 1000s...
Great leakage test video.
Ive only fitted 1 split load CU since 2022. Rcbo everything apart from garage 2 circuits. It is. Pointless to it RCD boards. Its a real hassle for the customer. Its hard to believe that was fitted as recently as 2020.
Those kitchen sockets are pretty low on the counter. Just stick to 120cm height
Lee 14 mins in IR test you had CPC out of the board for testing as you mentioned, unless I am wrong should it be in place ref reg 643.3.1 (ii)
IR testing with the cpc disconnected led to the death of a woman, whose legacy led to the launch of the Part-p self certification scheme. A really important everyone should have learnt, keep the cpc connected during IR testing.
Great video guys, start to finish really well explained process 👍🏼
Got the same tester from TIS. Soon unreliable I took it back today. U touch it reading changes, u look at it it changes.... Will certainly not use it again. Not found it accurate enough to help. Maybe faulty unit....
I hope customer was not paying for two guys spending all that time on an obvious problem. Just to recommend RCBOs. 30 mA RCD regs say max 30% leakage.
First thing I thought is why have they not mentioned the 30% earth leakage reg
Toasters when not cleaned out can cause tripping.
A simple switch to a type A RCD. No day long faffing around. IMO. Type AC is not suitable for residential, even less so for multiple circuits..
Well done great video when you are carrying out this type of work do you find it hard sometimes to explain the issue of earth leakage
to your customers or builders , and do you sometimes feel they think you are looking for more work .
Thank You.
Tbf, we did get earth leakage clearly explained... by the oven repair guy. The oven NEFF oven was faulty. Still didn't solve the problem but, in checking the isolation switch to the oven, I found the spark had connected it up wrong
Cudis CPN boards are completely fine. Prob more expensive than the Fusebox brand you guys fit. Retrofitting RCBOs into that DB would be totally fine
I learnt at college to test RCD's in isolation. IE, disconnect the outgoing neutral from the bus, and turn off all the MCBs. I've had issues testing an RCD from a circuit yet when testing it in isolation it passed.
The problem you have got it:
If you are testing it in a way that is not representative of a real situation, you are not proving it will pass in a real situation.
The RCD needs to trip with an upper limit on the I delta N, and within the required time. If it doesn't trip quickly enough and at the required maximum current level, then you are potentially placing people's lives in danger.
In a real situation, the outgoing neutral is not disconnected, and the other MCBs are not turned off, are they?
So you have created an artificial situation which does not occur in real life in a consumer unit in normal use.
And then you have tested that RCD in that artificial situation.
The question for you is, are you just trying to get it to pass, or are you trying to save lives?
There's an argument for testing the RCD in the artificial way you have been trained, it is important to ensure that RCD is working as designed. If it is not working as designed within the required limits, then when in a correctly configured CU and installation, it is never going to pass.
But you really need to test that RCD as it is in a real life situation, and not the artificial test situation you have created. You and the residents of that property need to be confident that RCD will trip quickly enough and at a low enough current threshold to prevent the person being electrocuted.
What is more important:
a) Getting a pass on the RCD so you can pass the EICR
b) Demonstrating that the RCD does it job properly and prevents somebody being electrocuted?
But a normal house has 1 or 2 30mA RCDs and it work’s absolutely fine. The number of RCD’s is fine. Criticism of the CB/RCD brand is BS. RCBO upgrade should not really be needed, it seems like fishing for work, or to put it another way; suggesting an expensive sledge hammer to crack a nut.
It needs upgrading because it is most likely the wrong type of RCD.
We shouldn't be using type AC RCDs today.
Had an intermittent RCD tripping fault, electrician changed my 5 MCBs snd shared RCD switch for 5 RCBOs and a main switch, told me it would be cheaper than him spending the whole day trying to find out what was wrong, and that the rcbo will help identify what circuit the problem was on and that i can then do my own troubleshooting by moving equipment onto different circuits. Figured out it was my computer monitor in the end.
Thats a lot of load on the bottom RCD. Over here in Malta, we used to have intermittent tripping due to inverters on A/C units and on the freezer. The solution was to use a type F RCD.
As a Canadian, i find European electrics and standards very good, North American electrics are constantly dodgy even when properly installed
type f rcd´s aren´t that expensive anymore well at least here in germany from siemens an type F is around 50€ and an type A at about 35€ and for just 15€ more i install an type f for the better safety, type b well thats another story they are still like 250€ and more
Type A RCBO's here are around £20, type F is unavailable as an RCBO, only as an RCD and then is £100's.
Type B are very hard to find as resellers here in the UK are complete morons and keep labelling Type A, B curve RCBO's as 'Type B' - so when you look for Type B rcbo's or RCD all you ever find is Type A, B curve.
Should have gone for the £30,000 rewire! (around the median annual UK household income). I'm sure AE would have completed that in a week or less too. Material cost ~£800?
Artisan... would find fault with a gold plated diamond encrusted board , installed by Jordan himself.....
Swap the breakers for rcbos I think it's a nice looking board
I still have fuse wire in my CU like a cave man, ring mains and no earth lights, so this doesn't look too bad to me
Dodgy brothers board installs. As an aside I'm so glad the days of split boards and type AC RCBOs are over for new or upgraded installs in Australia.
Haha glad you are enjoying it in Australia!
@@artisanelectrics ask Jordan about Tim Tams
You want to see a rats nest you go to Australia and open fire resistant board that everything is just simply screwed onto front with all the wires sticking out the back
In a new build house from FH 2020... MCB on 2 RCD devices.
I would have PAID for the upgrade to AFDD + SPD.
Also pulled 6mm to the detached garage. Again, would have paid for an upgrade to the cable to make adding a car charger easier.
Most new builds are designed by the client, and are designed 1-2 years prior the the current regulations. It’s not always the electrical contractor at fault, their job is to do as the spec says. As always we can advise they do things different but if you have 40+ houses like some sites I work on an extra few hundred quid per house stacks up quickly, so they tend to avoid. Speaking from experience on this, it’s an impossible task to speak sense into the senseless 😂
Great video boys. Teaching and preaching the electrical safety message strongly, as usual......;)
These RCDs are banned in Australia now. They were banned in 2018. They came back as "pulset" - which have a bad habit of failing internally. Also can't add more than 4 final sub-circuits to an old RCD here - because of this reason... Too much leakage.
We in the Netherlands mostly dont fabricate a board.We just buy it complete.And they do only 4 switches per RCD.
Van battery's a bit low. Should be 12.8V once the surface charge is dissipated (doesn't take much load to do that - interior light or just the key on ACC will do it pretty quickly). You'll want to get that load tested before the first cold snap.
why not just get some CPN RCBOs and move some circuits onto them. no need to replace the whole board
Discrimination & you can’t have two RCDs next to each other they don’t function properly.
He said RCBOs!
60A seems too low for that house. Is that what is really in it?
Nothing wrong with the board as a piece of equipment, it meets all BS standards. It’s the design of the installation that is the problem. Swap out the RCD and MCBs for RCBOs for less than £150 and a couple of hours work.
Ah yes but then you make no UA-cam money, send two guys in to spend a day stating the obvious at 130 plus an hour and then recommend an entirely new board. God help the poor customer here. A couple of RCBOs as you say couple of hours work job done, but that does not pay for the overheads, the vans, the UA-cam film guy etc. No wonder title says it costs you thousands
Very cheap RCBOs let us know where you get them
@@dritanboraku3259 don't need to replace all. Just enough to bring leakage current down below 10 Mamps per RCD/RCBO
@@brianoneill350why so bitter Brian? 😅
@@KevinSmith-ph6jv I don’t like customers being treated like this.
I’m impressed, very thorough fault find and test. There’s not too many sparks out there that are quite so conscientious. 👍🐙
Cuz not too many sparks changing a £100 p/h lol
Clutching at straws when you diagnose the issue on the half of the installation that has more earth leakage that has the majority of the load. Also when you’re only issue with the cert is the cut out that the clearly shouldn’t have looked at anyway
I always put a limitation on the test sheets when it asks for the main fuse size as how do I know what size it is just because it says 100A or 80A means nothing as someone could have put a different size fuse in the carrier and we should not be able to remove that fuse as it should have a seal
Just put in an extra rcd on the string with the fault. Job done. I would imagine swapping the rcd for a new one would also fix it.
It just goes to show planning out things properly can avoid headaches in the future!
Planning is essential
Spotted USB sockets in the kitchen. That will be accounting for some if not all of the leakage and if they've got a few more dotted around, easily make up the 20ma leakage on one side of that CU.
Well spotted!
Content of video very informative excellent explanations of faults found, BUT who was let loose in the editing stages and thought it good to drown out the dialogues with so called music? 😢
In the netherlands it`s not allowed to have more then 4 end groups behind an rcbo.
I’m surprised you guys are so calm by the amount of circuits on one RCD. We can only have 3 circuits on a RCD in nz and Aus
In many countries that initially went with separate RCBs, the original concept was one RCB for the whole house, then recently 2 to ensure some lights will still work in an emergency . Maximum breakers per RCB is a fairly new idea .
Why is there deliberate leakage in all appliances?
Not all, but lots of modern electronics leak through filter caps on power supplies. Normal operation, and not a problem normally, but load lots on one rcb and this happens.
Switch mode power supplies that reference ground and EMC filters are the most common ones. It’s not strictly “intentional” but rather unavoidable would be a better term.
For EMC compliance class X and class Y capacitors are fitted between L, N & E. Each device (PC PSU, audio equipment etc) may add a few mA to earth leakage.
I was involved in the design of a large non-domestic LED display where we fitted 32 off small DC power supplies. Each had it own EMC capacitors, and a soon we tried to power it up, the 30mA RCD on the supply tripped. We had to remove the internal EMC filters and fit 1 external EMC filter to each set of 4 PSUs.
At home I had a cheap Tesco DVD player. It had a two wire mains connection (no earth), X capacitors to its metal case, and a switch in the neutral. When it was "turned off" one could get a slight shock due to the L-E capacitor. I notified the supplier of this design fault, but had no acknowledgement.
@@BrainW33a Many an old Sky box has zapped me over the years, thanks to it's EMC filter caps putting halfwave rectified mains AC out on various connections.
How I understand it you took the earth off the backbox and connected it to the switch. The regs state only a backbox with 1 fixed lug doesn’t need a earth to it, however here because of the isolator type lug you have now left this backbox without a earth, which reg does this comply with?
How long did all this take out of interest. Very thorough great work.
At > 300ms can you tell me why this means the RCD has failed? I’m a spark in training!
Because the regulations require it.
The RCD must trip and cut the power off in under 300mS.
It is to prevent the person being electrocuted, if they happen to be in contact with the circuit.
video was great helped out alot thanks as a newbie
I think you were trying to trip a type AC RCD but your tester was set to type A
This is a big problem. Not enough education on the subject. A lot of devices with RCDs are returned to stockiest, just because of this problem.
I think a better understanding of intentional and unintentional earth leakage is required.
Almost sounds like they are describing functional earthing.
These days, one should only accept a fully itemised quote with complete BOM that include copies of up to date trade certification, insurance etc and then further check them out as part of due diligence.
Great, except the safety of yourself! I see you working touching the board without gloves! I know is a pain but it is a must! Another thing why would you suggest the most expensive option, there was a space to add 1 more RCD,
We have the rcbo version of that board and it is a delight. A led comes on when you open the cover too. It was being promoted by cef at the time. It certainly wasn't budget end.
Very good video sharing the issues of earth leakage. Much appreciated
I've fitted a few of the rcbo boards and never had issues.
It is a budget brand. Not great at all. Not as bad as Wylex or Fusebox but not great St all
@@peterigrenyi9176 I'm surprised you say that. It has everything a homeowner looks for, and the automatic lights are really helpful. The rcbos and rccb have worked flawlessly since installation. And it was recommended by our electrician. If this is a budget brand then why do people need to pay more?
@atkt62 just not built as well as more expensive brands. Also would expect a struggle with customer service if there is a problem.
From my own experience with this board, terminals not great, screws on few mcbs/rcbos damaged when tightening withing torque limit, lid never sits quiet right, etc. I also expect more recalls on mcbs etc too. Just like wylex, craptree etc.
Would much rather fit Hager. Cost probably not far apart.
@@peterigrenyi9176 I understand your pov. However, we are 3 years into our cpn cudis rcbo board, not one issue. Our electrician says he fits these as standard. I guess everyone has their preferred brand. Look at the cars on the road as an analogy.
Been to a couple of brand new build and the builders are still fitting split load boards.
There's no way that was a grand, look at the amount of circuits . Alarm bells start ringing here looking at the size and quality of the house . At first I thought the sparky may have recommended rcbo etc and the customer didn't want it but then looking at the quality of fittings and lights and then the consumer unit install shows different . I also suspect the RCD is rated at 63a not 80 so I bet at times that bottom one is overloaded also . As a temp fix, RCD change and move a circuit to the top bar such as the oven. However a new board or rcbo conversion is definitely what is needed .
Simple schematic (or list) of Ring Main (or Radial) circuits routing would save hours of work
I’m an apprentice, could you not have put in another RCD on each row to half the loads on each rcd instead of suggesting full rcbos
OK...yeah.. it should have been a RCBO board in the first place, but it isn't. Why is the go-to solution to replace the board, when the problem could be resolved by simply adding another RCD and splitting the bottom row?
Bus bar cut for the RCD's and you can't buy just the bus bar for an upgrade would be my guess.
@@jonathanbuzzard1376 Hey 👋, I'm not sure if you are referring to the mounting rail, the MCBs etc clip onto, or the Bus (aka Buzz) Bar that connects the Line from the RCD to the MCBs? Presumably it's the latter, but correct me if wrong.
The Bus bar is very cheap, readily available and easy to cut etc. There would be no problem cutting the existing bar to split it; put in a new RCD and a new Bus bar, splitting the MCBs between the two; and take a separate feed from the Main switch and Neutral bar to the new RCD. Oh.... perhaps you mean another Neutral bar??? Ahh yes, that might be a problem alright. 😅
Heating elements in Ovens - cook-tops - Refrigerator defrost elements
Electric Water Heaters - Oil-filled immersion heaters -- any appliance
with a Heating Element is a primary suspect
And having so many combined circuits that accumulate a high leakage
current is walking a tight rope.
The RCBO I use trip at 25Ma
I would consider 30Ma too high and a safety hazard -
Someone with a heart like a healthy bull may get away with it
aren't split load boards now non compliant 18th? unless you can prove the total ma is below a certain level
it is if the earth leaking is less then 30% of the disconnection tolerance
What do we expect when testing a socket for polarity, when it proves to be correct on the left side socket but test the right side socket? Futile no? That board is an absolute mess.
I'd like to know how much that eicr cost?
The Lumo led light function on that Cpn Cudis fuse box is not working because someone has removed the batteries lol.
If only all were as thorough as you guys. Excellent.
I'm a niceic dom inst and fit kitchens and bathrooms as a main business...found this video very helpful as keeps info fresh ..
Good job
Not sure about the hats though guys 🤔
Hello lads i have never come across that make of board before you would have thought they would have installed an RCBO board in the first place rip it out and change it then all will be hunky dory it needed you lads on the job at the start love your high standards of work well done i say.
Why do you so often have a single-phase housesupply in England, here in Germany, where I live, we have a three-phase house connection in every house since the 70s or earlier
You have the tester set to the wrong test setting when conducting the rcd test and also an rcd should be tested with the load side disconnect as existing fault current can affect the times and mA and not give you the true readings of the rcd.
I'm glad I am still on ceramic wire fuses. Two blown fuses in 30 years and then that was because of old type light bulbs that are no longer in existence.
This lot🙄one electrician to test and one to film.
I'm suprised both of you don't use charriots to move around too!
Ceramic rewirable fuses certainly works but they can't compete with how fast an RCD or RCBO trips in a fault condition and the safety such can provide.
I saw cable insulation melt/get brittle because of continuous heat up circles without a fuse blowing up...
You are glad not to have RCD protection, are you?
Sounds very foolish, even dangerous
The stupidity of putting in a dual RCD board, especially in a house that size. It's crazy.
so many new builds are still having these double bank split load rcd boards installed in 5-6 bed houses, I've worked for companies putting them in. Never understand why they can't just add a bit more budget and get an rcbo board. Like Lee said they need to ditch split load boards all together but will they? There needs to be a dangerous situation occur for this to happen but most the time its just a nuisance
Why is there intentional earth leakage. I thought earth was only for emergency.
Am a utter layman as far as electric installation. So if anyone could explain it would be great.
There are components in the supply (Class x & Y capacitors) of any equipment using electronic power supplies or control to stop harmonic energy getting back into the supply network. As the amount of electronics and high power switching controls increase so does the amount of interference pushed towards the DNO distribution. It also annoys the heck out of radio Hams as our licensed frequencies are jammed by the muck.
Why send 2 people to this job?
For my learning if you have downlighters in a room under a bathroom or wet room the downlighters should have an ip rating ? I think i understand downlighters in a bathroom should have an ip rating ?
'Buy once, cry once'. Although entirely likely customer was stitched up rather than trying to go cheap and having to pay again for rework.
All possible to be honest but I do not know the correct answer to that
I'm so confused I'm not a spark but why do they want more earth leakage before it trips? Isn't that a bad thing? 2:40
CPC disconnected during IR test is a really big failure, please read up on why you should not do that. Recommending the board to be changed when it could have RCBOs installed.
These guys are always looking for anything to charge lots of money to customers. For them, everything is dodgy. All they had to do is put another rcd split the bottom board into 2 rcd. Done. But of course, that's dodgy for you to find the same brand rcd Why its cheap brand.
By the way, is it a problem to use a cheap brand? Will that make u more safe? They come with bs compilance anyway.
Just swap the lot out with RCBOs of the same manufacturer. That will also give them more space for the future. Also, just what is it that's considered to be so wrong with the CU unit itself? Hardly the CU's fault that there's cumulative leakage currents; that's down to the fundamentally inappropriate choice of using a dual RCD board, especially bad in such a large property.
How would you fit a bunch of RCBOs in that overcrowded board? Also, they might get a discount buying a premade board with 40+ RCBOs already installed and connected together, instead of buying a wholesale crate of 40 RCBOs that need to be put into the box . Pricing structures tend to encourage complete replacement on every upgrade .
@@johndododoe1411 Are you aware that an RCBO takes just one slot, and that means they actually take less space as you can remove the RCDs? RCBOs take up less space than dual-split RCD boards. Indeed, you get 4 slots back.
Also, the physical process of clipping an RCBO into place and connecting the bus bar takes no time. It's the wiring and testing of circuits that takes more time.
@@TheEulerID My guess is the bus bar is cut for the RCD's and getting replacement bus bars is probably not an option so new consumer unit. Frankly it's a shame that you can't get the spares for upgrades. My board could easily be upgraded from 16th to 18th apart from the two plastic covers for the breakers as it's otherwise a metal board and I could upgrade the none RCD side to RCBO's. Though I am quite happy that the earthshield wired double outlet in my server cupboard is not on an RCD thank you very much.
@@jonathanbuzzard1376 You can get replacement bus bars without any trouble whatsoever. They are freely available, including from suppliers like Screwfix or TLC, and they are available in any length you might reasonably use. If necessary, they can be cut to length.
If you are talking about metal blank plates for gaps in the breakers, then those are also freely available as well.
Of course the break in the neutral bar (for a dual RCD board would have to be bridged with an appropriate copper jumper.
So basically the consumer unit had type AC RCD instead of TYPE A . And they has a saturated RCD with DC current blinding it .
Housing changed our board a few years ago and we had nothing but problems.
Turn something on (a light, the kettle, etc) rcbo would trip, not just once but multiple times, reset and trip again.
I've changed them all back to (same value) mcb's and no more problems.
Hold up do you mean you changed the RCBO's in your board to MCB's that is not an advisable fix
@@markpotter8280 It's all still protected with RCD's so there's no problem.
Buy cheap buy twice all split loads should be banned are removed from sale
That is what we usually say haha
What's the problem with cheaper brand? Not all electricians charge as much as you do.
Your tester was set to type A not type AC when you did your tests...
Is a split RCD board ever the answer these days compared to an RCBO board? Having worked on and installed both I find the RCBO board to be much easier all round, and I find it hard to believe that the overall cost will be much less with the split RCD board. With a decent quality but low cost RCBO board like the ones from Fusebox, what sort of difference in price are we looking at for say a 20 way board install compared to a similar quality split RCD board, both running type A RCD/RCBOs? It can't be more than 10 or maybe 20% surely?
It's cheaper, that's literally it
@@SBBUK Yeah I know... But in this case, surely if the spark had told the customer the reality of how many circuits will be lost just because one of them has a fault, then you'd think the (IMO) relatively small extra cost could be easily justified. Not to mention the cumulative leakage causing nuisance tripping. But that assumes the spark actually cared which seems unlikely, although it's unfair to speculate around the circumstances which led to this rather poor design choice.
Obviously some people have no choice but to go for the absolute cheapest option, but that house didn't seem like somewhere you would install the cheapest option. Then again there are people who own fancy cars and install cheap tyres made of chinesium and wonder why they can't keep then on the road! I reckon kids should be taught about "value" as a core subject at school. Not just low vs high cost but actual value!
RCBO consumer units should by the norm once you go over 6 or 8 circuits