Choosing the Right Oar Length | Ep. 159
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- In episode 159, Zach give his thoughts about choosing the right oar length for your whitewater raft.
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Awesome topic Zach!! Thanks for taking the time to put pen to paper and grind out the math behind it.
Thanks again Zach. It's fun to have a place to geek out a bit on this material. I wonder if you've enjoyed a standard, or arguably longish oar, per your equation, in low water to have a greater reach and thus more options when shopping for water deep enough to grab for pulling. I'm also curious if you've found benefit w/ playing w /the feather of the oar blades in low vs deeper water: the top of the blade rotated slightly toward the bow for low water, rotated slightly toward the stern for bigger water.
Hi Zach. On my 14.5', 1995 Maravia New Wave III, I have a frame w/77.5" between pivot points.
Here are my calculations based on (1) your constant, & (2) the W/2X3 formula:
-- (1) 77.5" x 1.63 = 126.325" / 12" = 10.527'
-- (2) 77.5" / 2 = 38.75" x 3 = 116.25" / 12" = 9.687'
I run 10' Carlisle Oars (120") and blades, but 6" +/- depending on the situation/skill/desired outcome makes sense to me.
I also run Sawyer Cobra oar locks w/Cataract Oar Counterbalanced Sleeves.
My oar handles are ~1" from each other when they are brought together.
Thanks for the info!
Excellent discussion.
My (rather simplistic) rule-of-thumb has been 66-70 percent of the oar is outside the oarlock, with the remaining 30-34 percent inboard. Then determine how comfortable you are with the handles overlapping (and mangling your thumbs every now and then). This will yield your inboard length, which then allows you to calculate the outboard length - which ultimately yields total oar length.
Zach’s formula looks like a refinement over my crude method.
That's an interesting thing to think about. Thanks for leaving what you do.
Just measured mine and they’re dead on using your 1.63. Nice video, keep up the good work.
Patrick Kramer thanks for measuring
I’m about this dude.
Thanks Zach. I gotta go measure the width between my oar locks!
Steve Wages please let me know what you find out
Glade to see u put all that college money to work. That engineering background told you that was the proper ratio formula
Nice to see a guide replace arrogance with intellect.
Very helpful. I got 1.61.
Good data Zac. Your trigonometry works out well. I would be curious to do a calculation with you on the impulse. So longer oars mean your stroke is longer so you are applying force for a longer time. I personally like shorter oars because I feel that I do more strokes and my blade spends more time perpendicular to the boat so the force vector is maximized. Also I am only 5’5 so it is harder for me to shop long oars because my arms aren’t long enough for big oars. Just my thoughts.
With longer oars you can choose to have a shorter stroke if you'd like and because your arc is longer you are actually more perpendicular to the current during the same part of your arc.
If you're not as tall I would think you'd want longer oars. Since your shoulders are probably narrower you'll want more oar inside of the oar locks to be in you power box (or cube) and if you sit lower then the outside oar has to go further to reach the water based on a lower angle. I don't understand how oar length affects ability to ship. The distance between your oar locks seems like the most important factor for shipping.
I'm no engineer so I've used a simple rough equation of 3 times the distance between oar locks divided by 2. Or I just ask Josh Sheldon what size I need. lol. Thanks for the great work!
I think the method you're talking about is a good generalization but it leads to oars that are a little short.
Zack,
Your oar length explanation is excellent, Thank you Question: What is the idea height of the oarlock to the seat height?
That's a good question. Unfortunately I don't have a good answer for you as I think it depends on a ton of factors.
So the distance between the oar locks is where they attach to the frame or where the oar sits in the oarlock? If the oarlock is not vertical but splayed outward there could be a significant difference in distance. I would think seat height might play a part too. For example, when my boat is setup for fishing my seat is a lot lower than when on multiday run and I'm sitting either on a cooler or dry box.
It's the distance between the oar locks, which is typically larger than the distance between where the oar towers attach to the frame. What really matters is the pivot point of the oars.
Yes seat height and rower torso length do play a role but it's small compared to the distance between the oar locks.
Hey Zach, thank you so much for all the great content you put out, I am learning so much! I owe you a drink if I ever run into you.
I am curious about the 1.63 rule + pushing oar mounts out as far as they can go when it come the large width boats. I have an old Avon pro(70s/80s) this is 7’4” wide, which would put me at 12’ oars using this equation, which seem really long. Should I bring the oar mounts closer together? If so, what oar length should I aim for?
Thank you for all your time, effort, and wisdom!
Yes I would bring your oar mounts closer. I think 10' oars work really well with AVON Pros so I would try and get the distance between your oar locks to be closer to 73".
@@GearGarageTV wow! Thank you for the quick and clear response! You’ve made this sport so much more accessible for newbs like myself
Zack’s ratio is so close to the Golden Ratio 1.618034, found in nature???? Thanks for researching such a very important part of boating. I like what you said about keeping the oar handles with in your own power range with your elbows slightly in. This brace position is so important to be able to manage big water. I can’t wait to measure the distance between my or locks. Thanks Zach for adding one more thing to talk about around a campfire.
Yes I thought about going with the Golden Ratio but then it would be set in stone and I think there is still some room to dial this number in to get it close to perfect. It's pretty cool that it's so close to the Golden Ratio and could end up being the Golden Ratio as we keep collecting info from other boaters. I'm excited to see what your ratio is.
Northwest Rafting Company ,I’m pretty sure my Oars are short. I run two part 8ft (I think) Carlisle oars I’m thinking about putting 1ft oar extensions on them. Over the past couple of years I have not rowed much above easy class 4. South Fork American and the Kings. So I sort of just deal with the equipment I have. But I know that I focus more on the distance from the oar lock to the handle. I like for my ores to overlap when they are parallel to the water, about an inch to 2 inches. But I am interested in getting new oars and this is really going to help me to nail down a length. Thank you.
I run a 14 foot raft
@@petergonsalves9381 Yes your oars are almost definitely too short.
Northwest Rafting Company. So funny. Oh I just went back into some of my photos of Me rowing in Trouble Maker, South Fork of the American a couple of years ago. Short oars for sure. Lol. Oh well. I’ll adjust them for next season. My blade is barely half way in the water.
83" between oar locks so 83 * 1.63 / 12 = 11.274 and I do run 11' oars on my 16' raft
Thanks for sharing your measurements. That's a wide 16'!
Hey Zac, Think things change at the extremes?? My raft is 10’5
54” between pivot points. That gives me ~ 7’4” oar length by your equation. I’m running 8.5 oars which puts my hands at your recommended spread. If anything my oars have seemed a little short. Even though these are counterbalanced Sawyers they feel way heavier than my square tops on my 14.5 boat which feel perfectly balanced. Think there is any correction needed with such a short W?
You’re my guru
Are you sure it’s 54”? That seems really narrow.
Yes things definitely do change at the extremes
This discussion has made me rethink my setup. Here’s a builder that may offer a solution - www.rowframe.com/oarlocksbronzeoartowers.html. He offers 8 and 12” mitered towers.
I’m going to battle the rain today and remeasure and get my inner engineer going. It looks like if I can increase my spread by 8.5” I can achieve the 1.63 constant using 8.5 ft oars.
Any thoughts?
We shall now refer to this as the Collier constant.
Hopefully it holds. Right now it's a best guess but within +/- .05.
Came out bigger than I'd like on my 18'. Not sure I'm tough enough to swing 12'6" oars.
@@big_b5377 You must have measured or done the math wrong. I've never seen and oar boat with the distance between oar locks as 7 1/2 feet.
Definitely wouldn't be the first time my math was wrong. Just a big boat with a big custom frame and 10" oar towers.
What are your thoughts on where the oar locks go on the frame? Outside of the frame rail, inside frame rail, or between the two?
Probably in between the two but it depends on a lot of factors
@@GearGarageTV sounds like a video idea.... :-)
@@andycunningham6757 I'm not sure if I have any real insights to add but I'll try and think of some.
What about Oar Lock Height? how tall should your oarlocks be? does that affect the equation?
The oar lock height depends on your tube diameter, seat height, and your torso length. Basically you want the height set so that you're pushing on the oars at around shoulder level. The oar lock height (and other factors) do effect the equation but the effect is small. The main factor for oar length is the distance between the oar locks. I'm working on a second video that goes over some of the differences.
Not familiar with this but is white water all pushing unlike regular rowing which is usually pulling? IS the ratio similar for regular rowing?
Whitewater involves pushing and pulling
Would this equation work well with a 1436 jon boat? I’m wanting to run up the Hiwassee in TN and oar back down stream. I’ve tried using 5’ paddles but that equals two people rowing. Me on the right rear and spouse at mid ship on the left. I’d prefer to get correct oars and maintain the boat completely so she can fish.
I'm not sure. The formula is designed around 13-18' whitewater rafts.
@@GearGarageTV I’ve been told 9’ but I’d prefer a professional to say. Large expense for quality oars
@@nate4036 Unfortunately I don't know anything about your setup or you or what you're doing so I'm unable to give you any personalized advice.
@@GearGarageTV totally understand. For ruggedness and light weight. Would you choose a graphite/ carbon oar? I’ve heard with wood, you get your exercise in for the day lol
My oars now are Carlisle aluminum with plastic sleeve. But again they are white water paddles
If the Oar is to be mounted on the stern of a 28’ engineless sailboat as a backup. Will it be W=Beam ?
I don't know anything about sailboats. With that in mind - W is the distance between the point where the oars pivot.
@@GearGarageTV ok
So the oar length is total length so if you buy a shaft you have to add your blade length to the shaft length correct?
Yes oar length is the total length of the oar
Does your "oar length" measurement include the blade?
Yes
Are these measurements including or excluding blades?
Including blades
@@GearGarageTV it just gets confusing when overall length is used for measuring but shafts are bought measured without blades
@@gumwap1 Yep the confusion is part of why so many people have the wrong size oars. I know when I order Sawyer oars, when I order a 9'6" oar shaft that includes the blade length since they use a standard oar blade length.
@@GearGarageTV so basically add 2 feet +/-
9’ shaft becomes 11’3” with cataract oars and blades
@@gumwap1 I would contact the organization that sells you the oars to get direction on this. When I buy oars from Sawyer a 9' shaft is shorter that 9' as the 9' includes the length of the blade. I don't sell oars so I'm not exactly sure how they label their oar lengths.
I'm confused are those electric oars?
No
@@GearGarageTV OHM I get it now they're omegas :)
Actually you do have the correct formula
You know that because your rounding the Golden ratio. 1.62××××××××××
A Fibbanace sequence will always give you the proper ratio your looking
Just like nature
Fibonacci sequence...interesting. Can you give an example of how this applies to oar length? I'm really curious. Thanks.
@@buckfifty3470 The fibbanace sequence is a continuous equation of numbers based on The Golden ratio. If you follow Zac's instruction he has based The oar length on sectioning The Oar based on 1.63. Which is rounding up the golden ratio of 1.62 infinity
What you're saying about levers is completely wrong. More length on the output side equals less power output. More length on the input side equals more power output. It's a pretty basic mechanical advantage problem.
Remi yes I have a hard time verbalizing it without using terms like input, output, power, force, energy, etc.