I have a pair of 4-Way JBL L7 speakers which includes 12" subs on each tower. I owned them when they first came out in 93 so I know what they're supposed to sound like. Unfortunately, I can't get them to sound good at all and I've tried every setting under the sun (large, small, crossover) and have gotten to the point where I want to give up. Receivers nowadays have WAY TOO MANY settings and it's frustrating because I feel like it's turned into a full time job trying to get my home theater to sound even halfway decent. The bass is non-existent and I'm using the Denon x8500h. I even bought the Multi-EQ App and tried calibrating it again from scratch and it still sounds awful. I've run out of options but any advice you may have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to do this for the community. I really appreciate it and appreciate you Michael! 👍 😊
Thanks for your way of presentation!! Such a simple way of Understanding the settings..on Avr.....Once Again Thanks and keep up...such type of setting vedios again...
My center speaker tweeter has been blown twice since I set my speakers to "large" on my AVR. As you know, replacement tweeters are quite expensive while the center speaker is the most dominant in a home theater system, because it produces quite loud sound. Until finally I changed my speaker settings to "small" and I never blew my center speaker tweeter again even though I played very loud
Hi there,i have marantz nr1711 with 2 main dali opticon 2mk 2,centre dali zensor and rear dali fazon mikro speakers,after i run audyssey mic cal marantz set my rear speakers crossover to 110Hz,it correct or i should change this to 80 -90Hz? Thanks
Hey there. I noticed you mentioned you like the sub to handle the lows. But in the same video you say you don’t use LFE+MAIN? According to the diagram that comes up it sends the lows from the main channels to the sub. So by not using it and with your crossovers for the mains set to 60-80hz are you not missing everything on the main channels below the crossover frequency? since they are not part of the LFE track? VS LFE+MAIN would include those frequencies from all the other main tracks into the sub as well as the LFE track? So if particular sounds are filtered from the mains and only those sounds are only in the main tracks not in the LFE track, without LFE+MAIN and with crossovers set on your mains, you are missing out on those sounds? Great vid BTW!!
When you set a crossover for a speaker, the frequencies below that will be sent to your subwoofer. So by setting your mains to 80 Hz, anything 80 Hz and blow gets sent to your crossover. Of course it’s not a brick wall, there’s a rolloff slope that gradually passes that information over to the subwoofer typically over 12 dB or 24 dB.
Example i have two subs but could not get good signals for the both subs so in the settings there are 1 now and i am using y rca to split the signals for them.
So can I set my LFE to 160 hz instead of 120 hz ? Would that be giving it more power to the subwoofer ? Also if my subwoofer says that it can do up to 200 hz then would I be ok setting it to 140 hz or 160hz ? Would that just be too much bass ?
Another untra-clear explanation of how this works Michael. - Cheers! Still hoping for an up-to-date series on how to set up 4 subs using REW and miniDSP 2x4 HD. Plus a second series on using the latest REW for basic room equalization.
@@Youthman Yes I have, but it is 3 years old and REW has changed since then, It would be nice for a revised edition - I know there is a lot on the forums but nothing complete as far as I have found.
Hi Michael You send good clear and consistent instructions our way to really understand and really take the time and patience go through it with people. Your very appropriated
I can’t thank you enough!!! Please continue with content like this.. I, probably like a lot of others don’t have others we can network with (multiple reasons) So keep it up!!!
Excellent presentation. The explanation was not so technical that beginners have their head spinning and the graphics were great. I know for myself when choosing an AVR you can find all kind of reviews on UA-cam but the on-screen menu is not even mentioned. I learn more about what I want from the menus than from all the specifications put together.
On my Onkyo tx-rz50 I had my front LCR set to 80hz THX crossover ran by Emotiva XPA DR3 and changed it to full range. I have old Boston Acoustic VR30 towers and a Klipsch reference 504c II for the center. I don’t play it too loud so I’m not concerned with distortion and it sounds alot fuller!
Home Theater 101 but explained the best way I've seen. That's your knack, Michael. Being able to explain things simply. And stop with the simple person BS.....you have a gift.
Thank you for the kind words. I have always enjoyed teaching and training. Plus I love helping others. Don’t worry, many more Home Theater Basics in the works.
Distances, use a tape measure or auto calibration. Delays use auto calibration. Level Matching - ua-cam.com/video/V481X2RHUcA/v-deo.htmlsi=VmA2idLP_NFWk3LD
I just did a Google search, "DMPort, or Digital Media Port, is an interface that Sony began using in 2007 to connect analog audio and video signals, as well as digital control, to their A/V products. Sony was the only manufacturer to use this interface as of January 2009."
How do we use the towers to help supplement the subs with additional nodal density at the mid bass level? If we set the crossover to 40hz, the subs won’t get that mid bass. If we set to large, the speakers get everything down to 20hz. How do we optimize this with MultEQ X and get the best of both worlds?? Matthew Poes mentioned something about Wavelets in REW but I haven’t seen any tutorials on this. I have dual sealed subs and 802d4 towers from B&W, with plenty of amplification. What’s my best course of action here, without just applying a cutoff at 80hz?? Thanks!!
Great content, I've always needed visuals/diagrams etc to take in information on subjects like this. I've heard this subject talked about on YT many times so knew in my head what numbers to aim for etc but watching this video makes it feel like I actually see how it all works. 👌
I don’t believe you have a choice. If you don’t have a subwoofer, I’m pretty sure it will not give you an option for crossovers. all of your speakers will be run full range since your crossovers will be disabled. If it does give you an option for crossovers, with that configuration, my guess is you will only be able to assign crossovers for your center, surround, surround backs and height channels, and those lower frequencies would then be routed to your mains, which would somewhat be acting as your subwoofer. Let me know if that makes sense and if you get a chance to test it, let me know what you find out. I don’t have the denon hooked up right now, or I would check myself.
I recently upgraded to a X4800H. I used one of the two presets for "Normal" configuration of 5.1.4 (upgraded to 7.1.4 by the end of the week Amazon and UPS willing). The other preset is for music only and I configured it as 2.0, not for any particular reason, just seems like if spend a bunch of money on speakers with a -3dB point of 34Hz (according to Erin, remember him?) you should use the woofers in the cases where there is no LFE. To tell you the truth switching between the two presets while listening to music I can't really tell any difference.
@Youthman thanks for the video to make things more clear for a lot of people that do not understand. I appreciate the stipulation of the journey of home theater using AVR. My question is wonder if a person has a external amplifier? Question does full range or small matter when it comes to a external amplifier? Question 2 can you explain the difference between a fixed amplifier versus an amplifier that can be DSP adjusted as well as the frequencies. For example the crown XLS 1502, versus an amplifier that cannot be adjusted far as the frequencies or DPS. Maybe this can be a future video. Everybody talks about a external amplifier but wonder if you get a crown that can make them adjustments throughout all of the frequencies. Everybody talks about external amplification but they walk around talking about fixed amplifiers versus the amplifiers you can make the adjustments when your receiver or AVR can't do 120 hz.
IMO, no it doesn’t change if you have an external amplifier. Towers simply are not designed to handle frequencies that are below 20Hz. Subwoofers are. Some amps have built in DSP. This just allows you to pull down the peaks of your frequency response. It’s similar to using a miniDSP, only more limited in its scope and capabilities.
Either way, you will want to take measurements like with REW and a calibrated microphone (like a UMIK-1) and use DSP to help smooth out your frequency response.
Hey Youthman, I have a question about the LFE+Main option, and since you are knowledgeable on Klipsch speakers, I think you're the best person for this question. So I have RF7-IIIs for mains. Why wouldnt I want LFE+Mains? Wouldnt that negate the purpose of having large towers with 10" 12" drivers? I would want to feed them some LFEs also
Good explanation. For some reason, Audyssey puts my speakers at full range. I have to go back and look at my REW measurements but I think the room has massive gain especially the main wall. They are definitely not dropping like you see on other measurements. And that room was a completely different beast with the basement below unfinished. I think the whole floor was a speaker 😂 I have it at LFE+Mains with 40hz so I'm sending all my frequencies to my LR and to the sub below 40hz.
Nicely done! I set my speakers to full range as I use the REL high level connection for each subwoofer, but that’s a rare case. Let’s normal subs handle it usually
Hey @Youthman thanks for the upload simple easily understood no gimmicks straight to the point.. I always keep my crossover setting on 80z on my avr amp regardless what sub I'm using....
This is a VERY good point to make... It seems wrong to set speakers to Small when they are large (and seemingly quite capable) floorstanders with multiple woofer drivers, etc. This isn't too bad when it's just Stereo music content at low-medium volume levels. But when the receiver is set to mix the LFE content into the main speakers (when set to Large), there can be some *very* low-frequency stuff there. (same with some music, obviously, especially Hip Hop, Metal, and EDM. lol) At higher volumes, that could potentially be putting stress on even quite large speakers. (A good speaker design will have a crossover with a proper high-pass filter, so the woofers aren't straining to produce frequencies lower than their design limits. But, far more often than not, there is no such high-pass filter on the woofer drivers, so they will just try to play whatever you feed to the speaker.) I used to have a pair of Tannoy speakers, which are fairly big on-stand speakers. When I tried setting the AVR to "Large" for that left/right pair, and playing some movie content (like Matrix Reloaded), you could see the woofers moving in and out WAY too far, and sometimes even clipping / distorting. :o And that wasn't even at especially high "reference level" volume either. It's mainly due to the super low-frequency content, especially from the LFE channel on the movie. For most large-ish speakers for music listening, I guess you'll want to set the crossover frequency to just below the speakers rated specs? So, if a speaker says it can play as low as 50Hz, maybe have the AVR set to 40Hz, and set those speakers to "Small". That will help protect the speakers, even at higher volumes, with a lot of very low-freq movie/music content.
I found this out the hard way. One time I had just a pair of Klipsch RF7 III and set them to full range and played a clip from a movie with really low LFE. It was awful! I thought I damaged them. It sounded so bad fortunately, they were OK. But it taught me even dual 10 inch woofers in a tower does not mean they can handle super low frequencies from a movie.
@@Youthman Yep, sounds very similar to what I did. hehe A good lesson learned, though. I probably overheated the Tannoys a bit as well, but fortunately not for too long. I don't know why more manufacturers just add a high-pass to their woofer drivers. I know some do, but not very many, from what I've seen.
Hey Steven, I've seen some recent reviews from Audioholics where Mathew Poes and Gene D. Talk about how on some speakers from Arendal and RBH the lowest Xover is so low (100hz) that they are difficult to integrate with a Xover in your AVR and those are better run full range. I haven't got my subs hooked up yet but I'll be trying that with my RBH towers.
Just a side note for some people, if your auto-correction software sets your speakers to full/large and you change it to small, you should review your frequency response. I had to adjust my EQ because it was based on full range, which lead me to believe I should leave the speakers set to full/large because it sounded better without adjusting the EQ. I leave my mains on full with double-bass and other speakers set to small in my 5.1.2 system. If I had two subs I would probably set the mains to small.
hang on hang on I need to really understand this... I have always assumed that the main and surround channels rarely (if ever) have low frequency (>40hz?) signals being sent through them. Are you saying that there is low frequency bass information being sent to all of the main channels (FL-C-FR & surrounds) INDIVIDUALLY, and also that these signals are not identical to the signal being sent via the LFE output of the AVR? Cause if I'm understanding this correctly then it seems that (ideally) every main/surround speaker in your home theater would benefit from being individually coupled with their own subwoofers that can play down to around 20HZ and then there would be one or a pair of LFE specific more capable subwoofers that deal with the infrasonic to 120HZ range.
I have never seen any documentation that states that surrounds rarely have frequencies lower than 40Hz. That could be true, but I'm not sure. What I am saying is the AVR is capable of setting your surrounds to Large which would send them a full range signal (whatever that frequency range is). You are correct, each channel has independent content that is specific to that channel. The LFE is an entirely unique and separate channel from the speakers. Bass is non-directional, meaning, when you have it dialed in properly, you won't be able to hear where your subwoofer is in your room. This is why we can effectively route bass frequencies from any channel and send it to the sub. Recently there has been a few AVR's that offer "directional bass", it's simply not practical, nor is it needed.
Most of the guidance on this topic found online is nonsense. Large or full range will not damage your speakers or overwork your receiver. A well made speaker has an internal crossover built in and can handle a full range signal. The speaker’s crossover will distribute the full range signal appropriately. Adding a crossover from the receiver robs the speaker of its full potential. How do we know this is true? Would you crossover a stereo, two speaker setup? No. If you’ve had this type of setup did you blow up your speakers at normal listening levels sending it a full range signal while not using a subwoofer? Bass management should be about sending the correct low frequencies to your subwoofer. Not about protecting the rest of your speakers from a full range signal that won’t damage them in the first place.
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever tested the wattage draw (with a device on the outlet) between 80hz and full range in a demanding scene. It would also be interesting in music especially with a song I know that drops a bass note based on an interval (it'd be cool to see it jump from 5 watts to 200 watts instantly and down to 5 watts) 🙂.
If, however, you have full-range or nearly full-range front speakers, then they may extend to as low as 30 hertz, or even lower, with some roll-off in volume if full-range is restricted. In that situation, if your subwoofer will pick up at 40 hertz, then you should send full-range to your front speakers, particularly for two-channel listening. The blend between the fronts and sub can be nearly seamless if the fronts and sub cross over at the same, or nearly the same, hertz. Also, many recordings today have a dedicated low-frequency track that will only be sent to the sub if the receiver is set up correctly. In that case, the deepest frequencies will not go to the front speakers. In all cases, try several settings and let your ears decide which you prefer.
I ran a pair of very large and capable towers full range during a movie that had low frequencies and it was not good. I thought I damaged my speakers. Just a word of caution that most speakers are not designed to handle 20Hz and below.
@@Youthman Knowing the frequency range of a speaker is important. Large speakers may not have as much range as they appear by their size. The terms "large" and "small" are thus not indicative of a speaker's frequency range. I have restricted full range speakers that will go to about 38 hertz before the volume starts to roll off. Frequencies lower than their range simply will not be played by them. It will not damage speakers to play a full range of frequencies through them. That has been done for decades in two-channel stereo, with large and small speakers. I've owned many speakers, small and large, and I've never found a full-range signal, analog or digital, to be the sole cause of bad sound. I have two restored 40-year old AR-48s speakers that handle modern high resolution recordings, full range, without any issue. If your setup sends the low-frequency signal from a multitrack recording to a speaker that can't handle it, that's a low frequency setup issue, not a large or small speaker setting issue. If the LF signal is set louder in the receiver than the other signals in that case, it will sound bad. And allowing the receiver's audio adjustment program to set the LF through an inadequate speaker will result in a much higher db setting for the LF signal than if an adequate speaker is used. And that will not sound good.
For context, the speakers were Klipsch RF7 III. They have a frequency response down to 32Hz. When connecting a pair of speakers to an AVR, if you do not have a subwoofer (which I wasn't using at the time), the AVR will set the speakers to large and send them the entire frequency range of the movie (which includes the LFE channel). Setting speakers to large in a 2ch setup is typically fine, unless you are playing ultra low frequencies (EDM, Techno or even pipe organ).
Manufacturers have thankfully and slowly been transitioning away from the archaic labeling of “Large v “Small” to the much more intuitive and accurate ‘With or Without X-Over’ settings. My Anthem does it that way and it’s definitely less thinking haha.
So if your gonna do a video on this. You should do it for all the different types available. I know that's difficult but . Just Denon and Marantz speaks volumes of the sponsorship of your feeds. I'm not saying anything is wrong with it. But are you gonna answer everyone that has a different receiver and or pre processor. I doubt but if you do I give you huge props. I. Just saying is that there can't be any biism
Darcy, while I appreciate the enthusiasm, there are just a few small things that would make that not only difficult, but near impossible to achieve. 1) I would need to somehow obtain an AVR from Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Outlaw Audio, StormAudio, Emotiva, McIntosh, Rotel, NAD, Sony, Integra, Arcam, JBL, Harman Kardon, Kenwood, Insignia, and Anthem. I'm sure I might have missed one or two. 2) If the current video is 12 minutes for one brand, multiply that by 20 brands would yield a video that is 4 hours long. 3) I currently own only one avr, a Denon AVR-X4800H (which I used for the illustration). I currently do not have any other AVR's in for review to demonstrate. 4) Out of the 20 brands listed, I have contacts for Denon/ Marantz (same contact), Emotiva, Anthem, Outlaw Audio and StormAudio. 5) It took around 5 hours to film and edit today's video. 5hrs times 20 videos is 100 hours. If on average I make around $200 per video from Google Adsense, that would equate to $2/hr. Would you work for $2/hour? I'm guessing not. 6) The above doesn't include brands that only make processors. As much as I hate to bust your bubble, but I have never been sponsored by Denon or Marantz. Ever. Not even for a sponsored video at CEDIA. Trust me, I've tried. The reason I have owned 1 Denon AVR's, 2 Marantz AVR's and 2 Marantz processors comes down to one reason. They simply work! I've never had one hiccup, one lockup, no HDMI handshake issues. None. I can't even say that of the Anthem AVM70 processor that I recently purchased. So as much as I would love to receive your huge props, I guess I'll just have to do without them. Lastly, I have no idea what biism means.
@@Youthman i agree. plus you don't have to spoon-feed people. This knowledge is always transferable between brands (they just use different naming). @Darcy, there is a channel called Ripewave Audio that gives a detailed comparison between receivers. You might wanna check that out.
A very good explanation for those on the higher end of audio gear...but I think you've gotten spoiled and complacent with your toys and forgot most people are running a "sub" that struggles with material
This is why I have always shared that if you do not have the budget for a new sub that can get to 20Hz, there are PLENTY of affordable subs in the used market that can reach 20Hz. This definitely isn’t a tutorial for spoiled enthusiasts.
Hello Micheal. Thanks for this simple explanation. I want to ask about what settings on my 2 powered Energy 10” subwoofers to put them on? I get confused as to the 2 ways I can set the crossovers on both receiver and subs. They also have a volume control knob on the sub amp plate so that’s another confusing part where I also have a volume controller on my Marantz SR7015 receiver. Can you simplify this for me?
I know most of this already but you're a good teacher.
Thank you kindly. I really enjoy teaching.
I have a pair of 4-Way JBL L7 speakers which includes 12" subs on each tower.
I owned them when they first came out in 93 so I know what they're supposed to sound like.
Unfortunately, I can't get them to sound good at all and I've tried every setting under the sun (large, small, crossover) and have gotten to the point where I want to give up.
Receivers nowadays have WAY TOO MANY settings and it's frustrating because I feel like it's turned into a full time job trying to get my home theater to sound even halfway decent.
The bass is non-existent and I'm using the Denon x8500h.
I even bought the Multi-EQ App and tried calibrating it again from scratch and it still sounds awful.
I've run out of options but any advice you may have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for taking the time to do this for the community.
I really appreciate it and appreciate you Michael!
👍 😊
I know all this already. Why am I still watching this video? 😅
That's what we do for our friends. LOL
@@Youthman haha indeed
It's because of carrying the 1528s - your brain is not functioning properly 🙂
@@techsamurai11 haha if only I had more
I have my revels all set to 80htz. Works for me.
Thanks for your way of presentation!! Such a simple way of Understanding the settings..on Avr.....Once Again Thanks and keep up...such type of setting vedios again...
Thank you kindly.
My center speaker tweeter has been blown twice since I set my speakers to "large" on my AVR. As you know, replacement tweeters are quite expensive while the center speaker is the most dominant in a home theater system, because it produces quite loud sound. Until finally I changed my speaker settings to "small" and I never blew my center speaker tweeter again even though I played very loud
Hi there,i have marantz nr1711 with 2 main dali opticon 2mk 2,centre dali zensor and rear dali fazon mikro speakers,after i run audyssey mic cal marantz set my rear speakers crossover to 110Hz,it correct or i should change this to 80 -90Hz? Thanks
Thanks for going back to the Basics, a few years ago I didn’t know this but watching you and others now makes sense
You are welcome.
Hey there. I noticed you mentioned you like the sub to handle the lows. But in the same video you say you don’t use LFE+MAIN? According to the diagram that comes up it sends the lows from the main channels to the sub. So by not using it and with your crossovers for the mains set to 60-80hz are you not missing everything on the main channels below the crossover frequency? since they are not part of the LFE track? VS LFE+MAIN would include those frequencies from all the other main tracks into the sub as well as the LFE track? So if particular sounds are filtered from the mains and only those sounds are only in the main tracks not in the LFE track, without LFE+MAIN and with crossovers set on your mains, you are missing out on those sounds?
Great vid BTW!!
When you set a crossover for a speaker, the frequencies below that will be sent to your subwoofer. So by setting your mains to 80 Hz, anything 80 Hz and blow gets sent to your crossover. Of course it’s not a brick wall, there’s a rolloff slope that gradually passes that information over to the subwoofer typically over 12 dB or 24 dB.
Great video, i have the 3800 series denon. You should make a video for the 2.1 settings for the music also.
Example i have two subs but could not get good signals for the both subs so in the settings there are 1 now and i am using y rca to split the signals for them.
So can I set my LFE to 160 hz instead of 120 hz ? Would that be giving it more power to the subwoofer ? Also if my subwoofer says that it can do up to 200 hz then would I be ok setting it to 140 hz or 160hz ? Would that just be too much bass ?
Thank you, Michael, for taking the time to clear this for us. Your tutorial was excellent .
God bless.
Another untra-clear explanation of how this works Michael. - Cheers!
Still hoping for an up-to-date series on how to set up 4 subs using REW and miniDSP 2x4 HD.
Plus a second series on using the latest REW for basic room equalization.
REW is definitely not my expertise. I’m a beginner. Have you watched Home Theater Gamers series on REW?
@@Youthman Yes I have, but it is 3 years old and REW has changed since then, It would be nice for a revised edition - I know there is a lot on the forums but nothing complete as far as I have found.
I let Brad know you are waiting on an updated series.
@@Youthman Thanks Michael!!
Hello, thank you. Question which hdmi input do you connect the apple tv on the back of the denon or marantz receiver
Hi Michael
You send good clear and consistent instructions our way to really understand and really take the time and patience go through it with people.
Your very appropriated
I’m glad you enjoyed the video Jay
I can’t thank you enough!!!
Please continue with content like this.. I, probably like a lot of others don’t have others we can network with (multiple reasons) So keep it up!!!
Excellent presentation. The explanation was not so technical that beginners have their head spinning and the graphics were great.
I know for myself when choosing an AVR you can find all kind of reviews on UA-cam but the on-screen menu is not even mentioned. I learn more about what I want from the menus than from all the specifications put together.
Thank you kindly.
On my Onkyo tx-rz50 I had my front LCR set to 80hz THX crossover ran by Emotiva XPA DR3 and changed it to full range. I have old Boston Acoustic VR30 towers and a Klipsch reference 504c II for the center. I don’t play it too loud so I’m not concerned with distortion and it sounds alot fuller!
Home Theater 101 but explained the best way I've seen. That's your knack, Michael. Being able to explain things simply. And stop with the simple person BS.....you have a gift.
Thank you for the kind words. I have always enjoyed teaching and training. Plus I love helping others. Don’t worry, many more Home Theater Basics in the works.
Nice video.... Please also make other video about setting distances, delays and channel levels
Distances, use a tape measure or auto calibration.
Delays use auto calibration.
Level Matching - ua-cam.com/video/V481X2RHUcA/v-deo.htmlsi=VmA2idLP_NFWk3LD
sir i have sony str dn1000 av reciever on the back theres a DMPORT,,whats that for?
I just did a Google search, "DMPort, or Digital Media Port, is an interface that Sony began using in 2007 to connect analog audio and video signals, as well as digital control, to their A/V products. Sony was the only manufacturer to use this interface as of January 2009."
@@Youthman last year i did call sony for help on it i forgot what they said,but ty for replying
How do we use the towers to help supplement the subs with additional nodal density at the mid bass level? If we set the crossover to 40hz, the subs won’t get that mid bass. If we set to large, the speakers get everything down to 20hz.
How do we optimize this with MultEQ X and get the best of both worlds?? Matthew Poes mentioned something about Wavelets in REW but I haven’t seen any tutorials on this. I have dual sealed subs and 802d4 towers from B&W, with plenty of amplification. What’s my best course of action here, without just applying a cutoff at 80hz?? Thanks!!
Great content, I've always needed visuals/diagrams etc to take in information on subjects like this. I've heard this subject talked about on YT many times so knew in my head what numbers to aim for etc but watching this video makes it feel like I actually see how it all works. 👌
I’m glad the video was helpful
Hi. I just saw your video and liked it.
What about the settings on the avr where l just have 4 speakers no subwoofer?
If you don’t have a subwoofer, you will have to run them full range.
AVR set-up 101. Thank you Professor Stevens! Always useful info displayed so even I can understand it.
Question: What about a 7.0.4 system? What would be your recommendation? Apart from adding a subwoofer, of course 😉
Thanks in advance!
I don’t believe you have a choice. If you don’t have a subwoofer, I’m pretty sure it will not give you an option for crossovers.
all of your speakers will be run full range since your crossovers will be disabled.
If it does give you an option for crossovers, with that configuration, my guess is you will only be able to assign crossovers for your center, surround, surround backs and height channels, and those lower frequencies would then be routed to your mains, which would somewhat be acting as your subwoofer.
Let me know if that makes sense and if you get a chance to test it, let me know what you find out. I don’t have the denon hooked up right now, or I would check myself.
I recently upgraded to a X4800H. I used one of the two presets for "Normal" configuration of 5.1.4 (upgraded to 7.1.4 by the end of the week Amazon and UPS willing). The other preset is for music only and I configured it as 2.0, not for any particular reason, just seems like if spend a bunch of money on speakers with a -3dB point of 34Hz (according to Erin, remember him?) you should use the woofers in the cases where there is no LFE. To tell you the truth switching between the two presets while listening to music I can't really tell any difference.
@Youthman thanks for the video to make things more clear for a lot of people that do not understand. I appreciate the stipulation of the journey of home theater using AVR. My question is wonder if a person has a external amplifier? Question does full range or small matter when it comes to a external amplifier? Question 2 can you explain the difference between a fixed amplifier versus an amplifier that can be DSP adjusted as well as the frequencies. For example the crown XLS 1502, versus an amplifier that cannot be adjusted far as the frequencies or DPS. Maybe this can be a future video. Everybody talks about a external amplifier but wonder if you get a crown that can make them adjustments throughout all of the frequencies. Everybody talks about external amplification but they walk around talking about fixed amplifiers versus the amplifiers you can make the adjustments when your receiver or AVR can't do 120 hz.
IMO, no it doesn’t change if you have an external amplifier. Towers simply are not designed to handle frequencies that are below 20Hz. Subwoofers are.
Some amps have built in DSP. This just allows you to pull down the peaks of your frequency response. It’s similar to using a miniDSP, only more limited in its scope and capabilities.
Either way, you will want to take measurements like with REW and a calibrated microphone (like a UMIK-1) and use DSP to help smooth out your frequency response.
Very well explained, great job 👍
Hi Mr.Michael simple and more effective vdo thank you from INDIA.😊
Hey Youthman, I have a question about the LFE+Main option, and since you are knowledgeable on Klipsch speakers, I think you're the best person for this question. So I have RF7-IIIs for mains. Why wouldnt I want LFE+Mains? Wouldnt that negate the purpose of having large towers with 10" 12" drivers? I would want to feed them some LFEs also
Good explanation. For some reason, Audyssey puts my speakers at full range. I have to go back and look at my REW measurements but I think the room has massive gain especially the main wall. They are definitely not dropping like you see on other measurements. And that room was a completely different beast with the basement below unfinished. I think the whole floor was a speaker 😂
I have it at LFE+Mains with 40hz so I'm sending all my frequencies to my LR and to the sub below 40hz.
Nicely done! I set my speakers to full range as I use the REL high level connection for each subwoofer, but that’s a rare case. Let’s normal subs handle it usually
Hey @Youthman thanks for the upload simple easily understood no gimmicks straight to the point.. I always keep my crossover setting on 80z on my avr amp regardless what sub I'm using....
Glad you enjoyed the video.
I got a basx 3 channel amp and set my front three to small but changed the xover to 60hz it sounds better.
This is a VERY good point to make...
It seems wrong to set speakers to Small when they are large (and seemingly quite capable) floorstanders with multiple woofer drivers, etc.
This isn't too bad when it's just Stereo music content at low-medium volume levels.
But when the receiver is set to mix the LFE content into the main speakers (when set to Large), there can be some *very* low-frequency stuff there.
(same with some music, obviously, especially Hip Hop, Metal, and EDM. lol)
At higher volumes, that could potentially be putting stress on even quite large speakers.
(A good speaker design will have a crossover with a proper high-pass filter, so the woofers aren't straining to produce frequencies lower than their design limits. But, far more often than not, there is no such high-pass filter on the woofer drivers, so they will just try to play whatever you feed to the speaker.)
I used to have a pair of Tannoy speakers, which are fairly big on-stand speakers.
When I tried setting the AVR to "Large" for that left/right pair, and playing some movie content (like Matrix Reloaded), you could see the woofers moving in and out WAY too far, and sometimes even clipping / distorting. :o
And that wasn't even at especially high "reference level" volume either.
It's mainly due to the super low-frequency content, especially from the LFE channel on the movie.
For most large-ish speakers for music listening, I guess you'll want to set the crossover frequency to just below the speakers rated specs?
So, if a speaker says it can play as low as 50Hz, maybe have the AVR set to 40Hz, and set those speakers to "Small".
That will help protect the speakers, even at higher volumes, with a lot of very low-freq movie/music content.
I found this out the hard way. One time I had just a pair of Klipsch RF7 III and set them to full range and played a clip from a movie with really low LFE.
It was awful! I thought I damaged them. It sounded so bad fortunately, they were OK. But it taught me even dual 10 inch woofers in a tower does not mean they can handle super low frequencies from a movie.
@@Youthman Yep, sounds very similar to what I did. hehe
A good lesson learned, though. I probably overheated the Tannoys a bit as well, but fortunately not for too long.
I don't know why more manufacturers just add a high-pass to their woofer drivers.
I know some do, but not very many, from what I've seen.
Hey Steven, I've seen some recent reviews from Audioholics where Mathew Poes and Gene D. Talk about how on some speakers from Arendal and RBH the lowest Xover is so low (100hz) that they are difficult to integrate with a Xover in your AVR and those are better run full range. I haven't got my subs hooked up yet but I'll be trying that with my RBH towers.
Definitely nothing wrong with trying both ways. Just sharing my experience and general recommendation.
Just a side note for some people, if your auto-correction software sets your speakers to full/large and you change it to small, you should review your frequency response. I had to adjust my EQ because it was based on full range, which lead me to believe I should leave the speakers set to full/large because it sounded better without adjusting the EQ. I leave my mains on full with double-bass and other speakers set to small in my 5.1.2 system. If I had two subs I would probably set the mains to small.
Great tip! But definitely a more advanced topic than a beginner.
hang on hang on I need to really understand this... I have always assumed that the main and surround channels rarely (if ever) have low frequency (>40hz?) signals being sent through them. Are you saying that there is low frequency bass information being sent to all of the main channels (FL-C-FR & surrounds) INDIVIDUALLY, and also that these signals are not identical to the signal being sent via the LFE output of the AVR? Cause if I'm understanding this correctly then it seems that (ideally) every main/surround speaker in your home theater would benefit from being individually coupled with their own subwoofers that can play down to around 20HZ and then there would be one or a pair of LFE specific more capable subwoofers that deal with the infrasonic to 120HZ range.
I have never seen any documentation that states that surrounds rarely have frequencies lower than 40Hz. That could be true, but I'm not sure. What I am saying is the AVR is capable of setting your surrounds to Large which would send them a full range signal (whatever that frequency range is).
You are correct, each channel has independent content that is specific to that channel. The LFE is an entirely unique and separate channel from the speakers. Bass is non-directional, meaning, when you have it dialed in properly, you won't be able to hear where your subwoofer is in your room. This is why we can effectively route bass frequencies from any channel and send it to the sub.
Recently there has been a few AVR's that offer "directional bass", it's simply not practical, nor is it needed.
Most of the guidance on this topic found online is nonsense. Large or full range will not damage your speakers or overwork your receiver. A well made speaker has an internal crossover built in and can handle a full range signal. The speaker’s crossover will distribute the full range signal appropriately. Adding a crossover from the receiver robs the speaker of its full potential. How do we know this is true? Would you crossover a stereo, two speaker setup? No. If you’ve had this type of setup did you blow up your speakers at normal listening levels sending it a full range signal while not using a subwoofer? Bass management should be about sending the correct low frequencies to your subwoofer. Not about protecting the rest of your speakers from a full range signal that won’t damage them in the first place.
What's strange is that odyssey's multi eq app sets my center channel crossover to 40hz but the receiver shows it's at 80hz
This confusion is solved in the new Marantz cinema series. Option is no longer available. It's just crossover and LFE or LFE+Main
Which makes much more sense.
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever tested the wattage draw (with a device on the outlet) between 80hz and full range in a demanding scene. It would also be interesting in music especially with a song I know that drops a bass note based on an interval (it'd be cool to see it jump from 5 watts to 200 watts instantly and down to 5 watts) 🙂.
If, however, you have full-range or nearly full-range front speakers, then they may extend to as low as 30 hertz, or even lower, with some roll-off in volume if full-range is restricted. In that situation, if your subwoofer will pick up at 40 hertz, then you should send full-range to your front speakers, particularly for two-channel listening. The blend between the fronts and sub can be nearly seamless if the fronts and sub cross over at the same, or nearly the same, hertz.
Also, many recordings today have a dedicated low-frequency track that will only be sent to the sub if the receiver is set up correctly. In that case, the deepest frequencies will not go to the front speakers.
In all cases, try several settings and let your ears decide which you prefer.
I ran a pair of very large and capable towers full range during a movie that had low frequencies and it was not good. I thought I damaged my speakers. Just a word of caution that most speakers are not designed to handle 20Hz and below.
@@Youthman Knowing the frequency range of a speaker is important. Large speakers may not have as much range as they appear by their size. The terms "large" and "small" are thus not indicative of a speaker's frequency range.
I have restricted full range speakers that will go to about 38 hertz before the volume starts to roll off. Frequencies lower than their range simply will not be played by them. It will not damage speakers to play a full range of frequencies through them. That has been done for decades in two-channel stereo, with large and small speakers. I've owned many speakers, small and large, and I've never found a full-range signal, analog or digital, to be the sole cause of bad sound. I have two restored 40-year old AR-48s speakers that handle modern high resolution recordings, full range, without any issue.
If your setup sends the low-frequency signal from a multitrack recording to a speaker that can't handle it, that's a low frequency setup issue, not a large or small speaker setting issue. If the LF signal is set louder in the receiver than the other signals in that case, it will sound bad. And allowing the receiver's audio adjustment program to set the LF through an inadequate speaker will result in a much higher db setting for the LF signal than if an adequate speaker is used. And that will not sound good.
For context, the speakers were Klipsch RF7 III. They have a frequency response down to 32Hz. When connecting a pair of speakers to an AVR, if you do not have a subwoofer (which I wasn't using at the time), the AVR will set the speakers to large and send them the entire frequency range of the movie (which includes the LFE channel). Setting speakers to large in a 2ch setup is typically fine, unless you are playing ultra low frequencies (EDM, Techno or even pipe organ).
Manufacturers have thankfully and slowly been transitioning away from the archaic labeling of “Large v “Small” to the much more intuitive and accurate ‘With or Without X-Over’ settings. My Anthem does it that way and it’s definitely less thinking haha.
I agree. Large / Small labeling wasn’t a good idea.
So if your gonna do a video on this. You should do it for all the different types available. I know that's difficult but . Just Denon and Marantz speaks volumes of the sponsorship of your feeds. I'm not saying anything is wrong with it. But are you gonna answer everyone that has a different receiver and or pre processor. I doubt but if you do I give you huge props. I. Just saying is that there can't be any biism
Hard to do how-to's on products you don't have.
Darcy, while I appreciate the enthusiasm, there are just a few small things that would make that not only difficult, but near impossible to achieve.
1) I would need to somehow obtain an AVR from Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Outlaw Audio, StormAudio, Emotiva, McIntosh, Rotel, NAD, Sony, Integra, Arcam, JBL, Harman Kardon, Kenwood, Insignia, and Anthem. I'm sure I might have missed one or two.
2) If the current video is 12 minutes for one brand, multiply that by 20 brands would yield a video that is 4 hours long.
3) I currently own only one avr, a Denon AVR-X4800H (which I used for the illustration). I currently do not have any other AVR's in for review to demonstrate.
4) Out of the 20 brands listed, I have contacts for Denon/ Marantz (same contact), Emotiva, Anthem, Outlaw Audio and StormAudio.
5) It took around 5 hours to film and edit today's video. 5hrs times 20 videos is 100 hours. If on average I make around $200 per video from Google Adsense, that would equate to $2/hr. Would you work for $2/hour? I'm guessing not.
6) The above doesn't include brands that only make processors.
As much as I hate to bust your bubble, but I have never been sponsored by Denon or Marantz. Ever. Not even for a sponsored video at CEDIA. Trust me, I've tried. The reason I have owned 1 Denon AVR's, 2 Marantz AVR's and 2 Marantz processors comes down to one reason. They simply work! I've never had one hiccup, one lockup, no HDMI handshake issues. None. I can't even say that of the Anthem AVM70 processor that I recently purchased.
So as much as I would love to receive your huge props, I guess I'll just have to do without them.
Lastly, I have no idea what biism means.
@@Youthman i agree. plus you don't have to spoon-feed people. This knowledge is always transferable between brands (they just use different naming). @Darcy, there is a channel called Ripewave Audio that gives a detailed comparison between receivers. You might wanna check that out.
My Audyssey always sets my front book speakers to full range in a 5.2.1 set up 🤷🏻♂️
It does t always get it right.
Hi Everyone ?
A very good explanation for those on the higher end of audio gear...but I think you've gotten spoiled and complacent with your toys and forgot most people are running a "sub" that struggles with material
This is why I have always shared that if you do not have the budget for a new sub that can get to 20Hz, there are PLENTY of affordable subs in the used market that can reach 20Hz. This definitely isn’t a tutorial for spoiled enthusiasts.
Set to Large. 👍🏼
Hey Michael, get out of dodge. I’m sure you will. I’m in Orlando. Come on over
We are good here. We will ride it out. Appreciate the offer.
My brother lives in North Port. He’s staying put. I told him, your nuts.
@edgarcabrera7230 that’s what most Floridians do.
First 😊
Hello Micheal. Thanks for this simple explanation. I want to ask about what settings on my 2 powered Energy 10” subwoofers to put them on? I get confused as to the 2 ways I can set the crossovers on both receiver and subs. They also have a volume control knob on the sub amp plate so that’s another confusing part where I also have a volume controller on my Marantz SR7015 receiver. Can you simplify this for me?