Copper head gasket - Question Time
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- Опубліковано 27 жов 2024
- Did you say copper?
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Copper head gaskets are old but gold tech.
I’ve literally rebored my head bolts alignment in my head to block, and then put two dowels to locate. I then put 35tho grooves in my head and through trial and error tapped in piano wire in the groove.
I then machined in receiver grooves in the deck of the block to except the copper head gasket.
Best thing is you can anneal copper so it’s reusable... 🤜🏼🤛🏼🇦🇺🍀😎🤓
i use copper ead gaskets on my drag little honda k series. 4 cylinder 1140bhp. Stainless oring to help keep that combustion in too :)
The best thing about copper gaskets is they are easy to anneal with a propane torch and a glass of water.
Usually when you see people using copper gaskets they have the block and head machined to accept steel wire in much the same way you use an o-ring. The soft copper deforms around that metal wire ring. This is only used though normally if you are running insane levels of boost! You can run copper gaskets with out that steel ring but it does not work that much better than a multi-layer-metal gasket like aluminum or steel and is much more expensive.
i would use a copper head gasket on my suzuki gp125 back in 80.s . worked a treat . plus you could reheat it to soften it and re-use it multiple times . p.s copper is,nt that expensive ,especially when its in thin sheet form .
I love how he disassembles the head basket on the car in a suit and tie. This is the best show ever.
I made a reusable copper head gasket for a single cylinder engine. I spray it with aluminum paint on both sides and use it while it is still tacky. The paint makes a compressible seal.
The paint makes a seal? LOL yeah
@@dirtygarageguy using high heat engine paint would be a good experiment
Copper expands as the engine heats up creates a tighter seal, that's why sump plugs should always have a copper washer to keep them tight when the engine warms up. The copper washer expands and locks the sump plug firmly. I'm pretty lucky that my local motorcycle repair shop stocks and uses the things.
I have a few 2 stroke bikes have the choice between soft copper or soft aluminium head gaskets. For the latter soft aluminium head gasket, the workshop manual has 3 torque wrench settings, depending on whether the head gasket is new 1st use (18 Foot / Pounds), 2nd use (20 Foot Pounds) or 3rd and final use (22 Foot Pounds). It isn't recommended to use the head gasket for a 4th time but I've managed up to 5 times before slight leaks started to appear when cold starting.
The soft copper head gasket is one use 22 Foot / Pounds torque wrench setting. However it can be annealed with a hammer on an anvil and reused if desperate, which is what they did with BSA Bantams and other prehistoric British bikes of old.
Soft aluminium head gaskets have superceded copper head gaskets since the 1970's.
Maritime navigational chart paper is best for making home made base and casing gaskets on engines as it is oil and water resistant. I had a friend's father who used to make engine gaskets from old charts and they worked just fine, better than the OEM factory supplied ones for my bikes.
The cardboard backing of Halfords silicon engine sealant makes for a better base gasket seal on my 2 strokes, I've found, than the gasket goo in the tube.
"Copper expands as the engine heats up creates a tighter seal"
so does any other metal.
Thermal Expansion of a few metal
Aluminium - 23 um/m K
Copper - 16.5 um/m K
Steel - 13 um/m K
Some people confuse thermal conductivity with thermal expansion.
"The soft copper head gasket is one use 22 Foot / Pounds torque wrench setting. However it can be annealed with a hammer on an anvil and reused if desperate,"
- You're better of heat soaking it than hammering it - hammering is work hardening the material. About 750Deg C will do it. You can quench it in water, as unlike steel - it makes no difference.
Sure all metals expand, but does it not help when the gasket has a higher expansion Coefficient than the base parts? Would the reverse not loosen the seal as temps rose?
Ye olde motorcycle manuals and magazine (1930's, 1940's and 1950's) show cold annealing of the copper ring gaskets. Speed and frequency of hammer blows seems important.
Lots of old lost skills in some such as welding back on broken off cast iron fins (I actually know somebody who can do this though he's in his 80's now) and revitalising a felt pad clutch plates through "ordeal by fire".
If one heats up a steel plate (flat or shaped) to red hot / light straw and leave it to cool for hours engulfed in a bed of charcoal (carbon) granules / dust this process is called "Harveyising" which was how boiler plate and armour plating was hardened between 1870 and 1921.
When I were a lad and went to school, they still taught boys wood work, metal working, forge, lathe, welding and milling as part of the standard curriculum, back in the 1970's, before the idiots started messing with the education system.
Yes, education was to a better standard than it is today. What's the use of teaching boys home economics?? If one is stuck in a layby with a broken down bike, being able to boil an egg or bake a cake really isn't really much use, is it??!!
All part of the PC brigades nambyfication of boys so that they end up with no useful life or practical industrial skills.
Copper heads gaskets were common on air cooled 2 strokes.
Air cooled RD Yam twins had copper ring head gaskets.
Every air cooled two stroke I ever owned had a Copper head gasket
Copper gaskets, washers, whatever, are soft when fitted, but over time they harden.
By "copper annealing" the whatever to re-soften it, you can reuse it again and again.
I couldn’t stop looking at the ninja poster at the back !! Hilarious 😂
Copper Head Gaskets are used in very high performance car engines such as Turbo or Super charged
Yep, I use them on a nitrous car too.
And with the multiple steel layer gaskets they also cheat by using copper that surrounds the oil and coolant passes as well.
when i had to replace my lawnmower head gasket i fashioned a new gasket out of a copper sheet.
worked fantastically
I was working on a little motorbike motor and made a cardboard gasket just to try it out and I was suprised that it worked.
Harley shovelhead uses copper head gasket or you get a new modern type but still has a copper ring in centre as head has a lip
Maybe copper wouldn't be so expensive if del would stop smearing tubes upon tubes of the stuff over his bike and brakes?
My Copper head gasket (1958 MGA) is 2 laminated copper outers with gasket inner, Not Solid Cu...
No need to hope. It makes perfect sense.
Thank you.
If you smear copper grease over your cylinder head then bolt it down, by revving the fuck out of the engine to get it nice n hot you can cast it into a custom head gasket.
You are a smart dude
I don't think copper is that expensive, it's just hard to seal with copper head gasket
I really like modern headgaskets that have metal around the cylinders and the rest is just rubber.
Matt- you need to check out Macdizzy... He goes in depth in two of your recent subjects... (It's all about 2t stuff, sooo...) Oil mix ratios, and copper head gaskets. Been a while since I was on there heavy, and most of the content is behind a subscription, now, but the consensus on copper gaskets for 2t engines was that A: they are reusable with simple annealing process, and B: you could machine grooves in the mating surfaces to accept wire for the copper to "mold" around, to greatly increase reliability for high-compression tunes. Hope that helps, and I'll see you in a bit!
(I should add, *not* on UA-cam)
link?
macdizzy.com/2stroke.htm
Found a quick one about the head gasket theory...
macdizzy.com/sixtynine.htm
(I know there's another page somewhere that has pics of the wire installed)
Also some High Performance car head gaskets are Teflon
Looking at relative cost of some of these MLS or graphite head sets, Copper is cheap work around for non standard engines and its not hard to make copper gaskets your shelf, With even simple tools and hole punches with net cost of some of these cylinder head gasket sets hitting 180/200 quid, Copper HEAD GASKETS is well in cost range and reuseble when heat treated and anneal back to malleable state,
But a lot of modern mls gaskets there are seals and other gaskets features..... its not that simple. Secondly have you tried punching copper?
Had a 70something Triumph "Bonnie" years ago. Previous owner had a machine shop "deck" the head(s) and took too much off. The old bastard had no idea what to do with it so he sold it to me for $400usd. Made a thicker copper gasket (.060 thicker than stock) out of sheet copper and viola. All good... Except had to retorque that pig several times to get her right.
Yeah, took 4 or 5 attempts to let the squish and thermocycles do their thing and stay ahead of the blowout but all in all it was the cost of the material that did me in.
So how about a video on shared manifolds on some 2 stroke and 4 stroke twin bikes and how it boosts low down engine torque at the expense of top end power and performance.
Thanks the video was clear and helpful and it cleared my many doubts.
so what if I have a multiple layer of steel gasket then I spray on copper gasket over it on both sides
Great speech buddy 👍🏻
What are some signs that an engine's head gasket is on the way out before it actually blows and turns the oil to milkshake
if a copper gasket was used in an normal engine , roughly how long would it last?
mario kovac forever
Depends on many factors, but could last a lifetime.
scegaskets.com/wp_super_faq/given-the-choices-why-would-one-use-a-copper-head-gasket/
Can I use the solid copper head gasket dry/raw? on a single cylinder air cooled motorcycle or does it need any sealer
Another problem with copper on aluminium is that you get nasty corrosion issues.
Why do diesel injectors use copper washers to seal then? 1:35
Because diesel cylinders are at higher pressure than say petrol cylinders. Material washers have a limit. Just like when they're used in brake systems.
A couple of my old british seagull 2 stoke outboards had copper head gaskets
Eden Gaming Emphasis on the OLD.
maybe a silly question matt...but why do we have head gaskets rather than a solid construction ..is it a maintenance reason...
The gasket takes up the small deformations in the two faces as explained in the video
Machining imperfections I'd say are the main reason.
thehares2. it's a manufacturing reason, more difficult to produce.
Mainly expense, ease of manufacture and ease of assembly.
Separate cylinder and head with head gaskets are less expensive to produce and easier to assemble.
There are some light duty utility and some specialty including some aircraft engines with (monobloc/uniblock) one-piece cylinder and head with no head gasket construction.
Not impossible, just bore it from the other side.
I have heard you can heat a used copper head gasket with a torch and re-use it
Would copper gaskets eat a aluminium head or block?
nothing eats anything - copper is just more noble than aluminium, but aluminium has an excellent anti-eating layer
only when you did let the aluminium oxidize for a day or so before you slam the fresh surfaced head back on the thing... Never slam the head back on right after milling it plane again.
i subscribed just because of the opening music!!!!!!
what about the head gaskets for auto's that don't need retorquing, felpro calls them (permatorque). single cylinder atv and motorcycle gaskets i don't retorque them and never had an issue, could it be the type of metal used? cast iron vs aluminium(alloy) being used? do multi cylinder motorcycle engines have to be retorqued after a given amount heat cycles?
mls head gasket for my application costs minimum 250 euro, i think i can buy copper sheet and cut it with cnc/laser for about half price, it is an al-si block and head m52 engine, going to put turbos to the engine. should i go for copper? solid copper or copper with steel rings?
Hello Matt,
On the same topic of gaskets. Why don't we seal the block and the head with conical surfaces? Shouldn't it be strong enough ? I know conical fittings and sparkplugs...why not use it for the whole engine ?
Too expensive to achieve a perfect fit with a flat mating surface you just need both surfaces to be flat.
Made perfect sense
Hi mat have you done any vids on blue printing a engine if so have you a link if not will you ?
No but I can do.
The Workshop thanks wanted to rebore but blue print came up a couple times in convo so would like to know more 👍
In the old days of 2 stroke road bike production racing, blueprinting the engine and installing low friction bearings were the only engine modifications the FIM allowed, which is why the X7's and LC's hurtling around the race tracks out performed their road going versions. Performance figures and top speeds were always higher than what the buying public could expect. My X7 never ever went faster than a hard won 95 MPH in OEM stock form.
Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda and Kawasaki used to blueprint the engines of they're 1970's and 1980's press review bikes. Yamaha even ported the RD 250 LC press review bikes in 1979, hence why the road test top speed was 106 MPH and the actual Joe Public top speed was only 96 MPH.
The motorcycling press hacks would take the bikes out, test them and come back singing their praises about the performance, etc. and they'd been duped!!
Then they'd publish a "why you must buy this bike next" review and punters would buy the new bikes and believe that maybe they'd bought the one with Friday "POETS" engine (the slow one in the batch).
It is still common motorcycle industry practice to the point of tradition, especially with the 125cc bikes these days.
Never believe road test performance figures as they're usually BS.
I've blueprinted only three 2 stroke engines in my lifetime (I'm 56 currently) and it takes a very long time to do properly in dozens of hours (not for the impatient or faint hearted).
However the rewards are:
Better fuel economy.
Better acceleration.
Slight performance increase as engine is wasting less power internally.
Slight increase in speed. A blueprinted stock tune Yamaha RS100 I did increased its top speed from 70 MPH to 78 MPH. All ports, carb, exhaust system and airfilter were left OEM.
The other two 2 stroke engine I blueprinted also had porting, altered transfer port tunnels, head skimming, low friction bearings and forged pistons installed so any improvements the blueprinting made was mixed in with these modifications.
Andy Reid some knowledge you have their bud thanks. a want to rebore a Yamaha xjr 1300 as it's got a good few miles on it and gremlins are starting to show. But blue printing came up so thought I would find out more about it
Why is my copper not in liquid form...
What about the copper spray for head gaskets by companies like permatex? Any good?
I always wondered why those paper gaskets don't burn after some time. Or crumble.
they do
Why not tribotex head gasket?
Has the thermal properties of copper any pros regarding heat transferring between cylinder and head?
(tired).....
Not really - the heat transfer is between the heand/cylinder and the coolant
But if it's aircooled?
+gislemark79 Yes.
What about it? You have to think of how thick the gasket is. Ally head ---> copper gasket ---> Ally cylinder.
Thermal conductivity
Copper - 400 W mk
Aluminium - 230 W mk
So great copper is nearly twice the conductivity, but it's tranfering heat from the head to the cylinder - through aluminium. Therefore the copper is restricted to by how conductive the aluminium is not the copper.
Its like double glazing windows or VIG windows. The vacuum (or inert gas if not VIG) is what seperates the outside and inside, not the glass. Removing the air massively increases the insulation of the system.
For an engine, the head an cylinder bore are both subjected to heat, with the head experiencing higher temperatures. Hence why most of the cooling is in the head.
Heat transfer rates are higher with a bigger temperature differential, i.e more heat is transfered and at a great speed to things that have lower energy - i.e lower temperature.
In this case the water coolant. With an air cooled engine with a copper gasket, heat will conduct from the head into the cylinder, the rate is dependant on the difference in temperature.
So heat will tranfer faster from the ally head to the Cu gasket, but then slow down again between the Cu and the Al. So basically as the engine warms up (say the first 15 minutes) the cylinder will heat up quicker, but only slightly. As soon as everything is up to temperature, the effect of air cooling is a far bigger factor than a Cu gasket.
Great answer.
Are there motorcycle gaskets that are steel and rubber?
LOL yes I have one in the garage.
would using copper also introduce a electrollis type deal with the teperatures and indifferent metals, coolant fluids, moving parts ect?
on a side note a piston being made out of a conductive metal, does it generate a magnetic field as it moves? if so, instead of an alternator would it be possible to wrap the cylinder walls with copper wire, in the channels where the cooland would be running? basically to negate the need for another belt/gear for an alternator and an alternator altogeathter as everything is switchmode power these days anyway(more for cars as bikes are magneto anyway) - sorry spellings terrible
after thinking about it, even if it does work its a terrible idea, matainance would be a cunt having to take the head(s) off to get to an alternater.... yea forget that part haha
After slightly more thought, it would probably be perfect for the old school air cooled bikes and better for them then their respective car counterparts, where the cooling fins are replaced for copper tubing that runs water through it... in the way you get the same weight in cooling but better electrical return, as long as the copper is cold and the tubing is exturnal of the cylinder, its own resistance shouldnt increase and you should get good voltage out of it.... if youd need to add weight to the flywheel to compensate for the weight loss though it'd be a dead end....
and just how is it with aluminum heads and blocks?
How to re-use copper gasket? Heat the shit out of it.
And because of this manufacturers make their money back? No. And that's the problem. Steel multi-layer gaskets work fine. And with the added bonus - they're cheap.
The Workshop I wrote gasket, I ment washers, it soften them up, and are reusable, you know, in case of emergency or being a tight bastard:)
I know about the multiple layers, they work great on turbocharged engines
Shitty in standard form but can be good rover k series with its MLS gasket issues, block jiggling under load from scabby stretch bolts and plastic dowel to align the head ffs, And a crank ladder that had very little of itself left that it had to be revised heavily all for cost saving to the max that always ends up with costly revisions.
Are they steel or stainless steel?
Depends - but usually coated steel
would aluminium foil work?
LOL no.
No word on aluminium gaskets or washers???
TheAnigai alu is shite
"No word on aluminium gaskets or washers???"
- no. seen as though the question was about copper. I don't ask the questions.......
Aluminium tends to work harden and go brittle over time.
Works fine for smaller or lower pressure sealing washers, but I don't suppose you ever tried to anneal one, like a copper washer? They go almost instantly from dull cherry red to a melted blob of aluminium.
rationalmartian Well, copper workhardens like a dick and works fine. You're not gonna reuse a headgasket and you're supposed to not reuse all those shitty sealing rings anyway. So, that's kind of a non argument
Can I reuse my copper gasket, on my 180cc dirt bike head?
If it's 100% copper then yes. You can heat up the copper to anneal it, but you have to anneal it otherwise it will probably leak in service
Copper gaskets need re-torquing, which is inconvenient.
possibly....?
Permatex indian head gasket shellac with normal paper gasket, can't go wrong.
Copper is a bad idea with aluminium, copper reacts with aluminium and trigger electrolysis, which F**KS aluminium.
But Delboy told me to just use liquid nails...?