SCARY MOMENT IN A THERMAL | Flying Simon
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2018
- A bit of a different video than usual. Not an episode, but a clip I wanted to share. I hope you appreciate it. A proper episode on the rest of this flight will follow quickly! So be sure to subscribe
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Standard rules in Australia is to enter the thermal opposite side of any other gliders in the thermal, and radio that you are joining.
Those two others joining were using bad form.
Standard rule in Europe is to enter the thermal in the opposite direction of other gliders. At least that is what I saw last summer. It was fun from the ground. Radio chatter suggested otherwise.
Going into a dive is always a bad idea in thermals as you can't see beneath your plane. Steepening your turn whilst slightly increasing speed was a good reaction I think.
I agree.you did the best in situation
this is the reason I stopped competitions. People think, that everything can be under control. But it is chaotic by nature if the glider density gets to high. One small reaction from one glider can cause a chain reaction. This is one of the reason for collisions where nobody can be blamed really. The other reason is simply reckless flying from pilots who want to gain 3 seconds on pull ups in bussy thermals. We have to reduce glider density in competitions: change start procedures, stop 10km Flarm range, time delayed OGN only, give Bonus points for people in the lead
If you think that's close go to a major paragliding competition and look at those guys LOL good stuff thanks for posting
@@dwightbernheimer331 At least PG are soft and speeds are very slow so plenty time to find space or canopy walk etc... Nothing quite like 100kph fiberglass missile collision around you! ;)
Therussy
It was the right reaction, I accidently caused the same situation a few months ago. Luckely we were just with three, two twin astir II and i was flying a jeans astir cs. The instructor in the backseat of the twin reacts opposite to you and flies out of the thermal but in that situation that was the best reaction. In your situation it couldn't be possible cuz there were other gliders on your left side. Nice video though!
VFR see and avoid......nailed it.
I think you acted calmly, reacted quickly and also able to analyze this after the event. Hope the other person did the same or at least you spoke with them
exactly why i don't like to fly competitions: people tend to bully their way into thermals and shit get loose
I think you handled it well. For a start you identified the threat. Your evasive decision was consistent with the gaggle direction and you didn’t rely on the other pilots actions. Good job 👌
Having had competition gliders join me in thermals I have to say you have to treat them with the utmost respect because they don’t give a f**k about you or anyone else. They bully their way in and only care about their mission. It might be the few, but they leave the bad impression.
I have heard from a competition training course, that the trainers told their students "You need to be rude, otherwise you will not be among the winners." - Very dangerous attitude in those circles, I think.
Even kort door de bocht: Flying Simon signaleert gevaar en vliegt weg......prima! 👍🏼😉
In my view, soaring is a lot like mountain climbing. There are good reasons that there are not much competitions in mountain climbing. You can always compete with yourself by expanding your goals and experience.
And I agree to Phillipp Keller that if people need to be in soaring competitions, then it should be more safe than today.
The situation went out well so you reacted correctly. Nice vid..
I remember back than when i did my PPLC i had a similary situation . I wasnt trained yet to fly so close with someone together in a thermal since i started practice flying solo on our dualseater just recently and i did exactly what you did, while i was in a climbing turn. i saw another glider coming in from my 10 oclock (almost 10 feet lower)and i instinctively banked hard right to turn away from him and egressed out of the thermal. Back on the ground i informed my teachers about the incident only to hear i could have just let him passed through first and join him from behind into the climbing circle but to my taste he came way to close to me and i rather chose not to colide. So in my book you did right :-)
Very instructive what could have happened. I experienced it and survived. The thermal pole was very narrow and very strong (4-8m / s), and there were seven of us .... heavy traffic. The climbing angle was over 50 degrees and there was a change control of direction and depth. I flew with the Blanik L13 because I had a student in flight training. It went wrong when the thermal pole suddenly stopped like cut off. Congratulations on your impeccable reaction ...
I think your reaction was adequate and timely. There was not much time to think, it was a safety call. Thanks for sharing this.
Joh Simon ik ben al lang blij dat het goed is gegaan en dat je gewoon veilig ben uitgestapt :)
... That is not how I have learned to join a thermal, I hope you had the opportunity to have a chat with the guy who pushed you to make this manouevre.. he made a mistake not you, well done to prevent an accident, probably I would have done the same.
What concerns me is that the flarm did not sound an alarm at the moment you reacted.. this means the glider on your left also did not have a warning.... The Flarm only made a sound after the incident.
The guy pushing in from the left has flying skills which indicate he's too stupid or too self-important to buy a flarm (or switch it on if one's fitted)!
You did fine. Good work.. Gaggles are chaotic.
You did all you could. I hope the two that joined right alongside other gliders in the gaggle got a good talkin' to!
I get very nervous when traffic is about close ...rather 1 or 2 at max. Dive???perhaps....you did react and were watchful for entering traffic well done.
You hooked me with that intro.
Fun fact: It is! But played backwards ;)
@@FlyingSimon You naughty you.
Quite original by the way👍
Middle finger evolving into a boot to the head once you have sought him out on the terra firma
you did the right thing good heads up flying!
Simon! glider 2 is the intruder! However i am sure you in hindsight would have eased your turn and gone in after glider 2. On the other hand you flew as a old hardened competition pilot.
I'm currently attending a course for glider pilot and what I learn from this video is to avoid this kind of competitions. When there are so many gliders the safety drastically decreases, in my opinion... You never know which is the expertise and the sense of responsibility of another pilot. Thanks for sharing.
Glider pilot too here. Sounds like you should get a share of a TMG (tour motoring glider) then :D.
Gliding is to my knowledge actually considered an "extreme sport", atleast to my ensurance company.
Going into thermals with a couple of other gliders is a part of any competition in the gliding sport. If you just know how to fly and react to these situations, it's not so dangerous.
That being said, it can of course be done as a hobby.
@@torx0149 Hhhh "Move over and let the real Men show you Marco ...." Crikey! Is there a Hells Angels flying club?
I think you did not have many options and you did your best. I think safety should be the top priority of all pilots, competition comes at No.2. All the best for your future! Anil
..First, I'm really glad you shared this. I have been in this situation, and my reaction, as I recall was identical. And in the cockpit, I probably would have done the exact same thing. But reviewing it several times... would it have hurt to go outside? Once you saw the the #1 (most outside joinging glider) you could have levelled and let him go through you into the thermal, then gone way out wide left and "button-hooked" back in to join. This way you would have kept all gliders in view while they sorted out there "horgy borgy" mess!
I should state... What I said above breaks the etiquette rules of thermalling and the real rules of right of way. The joining gliders give way! But I really like seeing as many other vehicles as possible and turning in tight really wrecks that.
TCAS and proximity apps definitely needed for that many aircraft. Spacing requirements for gliders in the same thermals?
"If you have poo, throw it now"
"Should've hit the brakes, and watched them fly right by".
Breaks? What?
What if someone is under you and you don't see him? He did right, what he did.
What's the beeping?
You wanted our opinion, well, you did the RIGHTEST thing, well done, tightening the turn in the same direction and not over reacting, good nerves.
Hi Simon, how are you?
I'm from Colombia
I have a question, i needs an authorization for fly it?
Not Simon but you need a license
The way we flew back in a days - any joining glider has to yield to gliders already in a thermal. It is easy with 5 gliders, how about 52 in the same thermal? Being aware and polite is the rule. Lesson here - incoming glider pilot has to be more aware of the situation and someone has to teach them how to do it a proper way.
You really think that guy is flying in comp and doesn't know that protocol?
Far more likley that he's one of the self-absorbed few who imagine "But the rules don't apply to me".
Gliding doesn't have the monopoly on cretins 'though.
Friend of mine flying a microlight to a meeting last week. He was second in the circuit with four or five following and the guy ahead on finals. From 'out of nowhere' some utter cock powered in slightly below circuit hight, barged straight in front to land. The rather terse exchange with tower showed (a) He had a working radio (b) No emergency and (c) His head up his egotistical arse.
People like this are Darwin awards waiting to be presented.
Farweasel: we have them in sailboat racing and general powerboat usage in my part of the world. Invariably Male, invariably full of shite. What to do I ask myself. I agree most are candidates for the Darwin Awards - but some want to try and take me with them.....
@@Farweasel Put a high wing and low wing together at the relative altitudes where they can't see each other and that sort of thing can get really sporty. There's a YT vid showing two powered planes coming together in exactly that configuration just shy of the runway, and it was severely not pretty, they both went in VERY hard.
I think you did the right thing .
Interestingly as you tightened the right turn your vario indicated more lift ?
you just did perfect, it happens all the time, Good job!
Agreed he did well. It happens all the time-this is the problem and it shouldn't happen all the time. Joining pilots should accommodate the established gliders as the joining ships have the most maneuvering room on the outside. Getting away with it doesn't mean it was proper.
@@dinos8557 Right, but as the room is not enought for the firdt person pilot, rolling in a steep turn or very high rate turn is not that worse, I mean avoiding the collision looks ok, Also he saw the incoming glider.Yes the incoming pilot does not have to cut short the path, Like on the road you got assholes! It should not happens.
Gliders are scary. I was WAY to close to one on a summer's day like this a few years ago. I was cruising along at 4500 feet when it appeared out of nowhere at my 10 o'clock about a 100 feet above me. He wasn't on frequency either.
I think you reacted really well. The other pilot, if they can be called that. not so much.
I think you handled that just right. Main thing was that you were alert to what was developing.
I had a similar event many years ago, we were thermalling clockwise, but only one glider joining and he didn't see me at all, I only saw him at the last second as he approached from the blind side of me, same altitude. I couldn't turn tighter (joining glider would have hit me), couldn't pull up (another glider above), couldn't dive away to the left as I would have hit the joining glider, couldn't dive down to the right as there was a glider down there as well. What I did was flatten my turn and go a bit wider, slide by the tail of the joining glider, let the glider cut in front of me, and then pull back into the thermal and try to re-space myself. There was about 6' between my nose and the the joining glider's tail. Someone higher up radioed down "One-Mike, you totally cut off Hotel Tango, look behind you" and I saw One Mike's head swivel back and 'jerk' with the reaction. I figured 'no blood - no foul' and tried to keep a cool head about it. All in all I think you did right.
Verry nice video, Thank you
What is the model of the vario used in this video?
I've never flown a glider (although it looks quite fun!) but it looks like you did the right thing. I fly a C172 out of a non-towered airport so we are forced to deconflict with other air traffic. Only thing you can really do is move out of the way and maintain the safety of your aircraft :)
Love your videos by the way Simon
Thanks for sharing mate!
“He’s going vertical, so am I.”
Pg pilot here with only limited sailplane experience: could you not have converted some of your speed into altitude, make a 270 over left and rejoin? Or were you flying next to your min sink speed there because it was a light day?
A few years ago my friend Rudy was in a sailplane with a student who was in a thermal over a Pemberton, BC campsite and they were suddenly hit by a Cessna setting up for a landing at about 1500 ft asl with a man, his wife, and a dog, there were no survivors. Even though the sky is big, accidents happen.
Sorry for your loss, Scott.
A helicopter almost crashed in me. I've seen him from far away coming from left. I tried to call him several times, saying we are on a collision course, but no reaction, probably another frequence. I was quite low and sinking, so I could not do a 360 and also take the risk to lose sight. I began to tango (rock the wings), but still no reaction. Guess he had a fucking tunnel vision to not notice me, but I kept doing until the end. When he was 100m at my 10, I got ready to pull hard right, this was the moment he noticed me doing the tango and I could see his shocked face. After a split second he banked like 70° left and dived, so I pulled up to almost a stall and pushed again before stalling. Fuck me, I got mad at this mofo...
Nice flight :)
When in a gaggle you should use the same turning radius as the others . Trying to shorten that radius will bring you in a collision risk with those in front of you .
Traffic jams in the sky? Not for me, thank you. That looked more like a dogfight.
Gaggles can be really challenging cause u can lose sight of others. Just a few days ago I was circling with some other gliders when another gaggle arrived and I spotted one only when he was right in front of me on the same altitude - I way busy locating the others. In this case a short dive sorted it out but many time gliders approaching the thermal are not a war of the ones circling or just ignore. I am always surprised how sketchy it can become in a matter of seconds...
I was a glider pilot from 17 till 25 when I went ATPL but, that was bloody close. I was first on the scene when two gliders collided in a thermal, both fatalities and it was not pretty. The guys joining showed a complete disregard to good airmanship. P.S. Keep your vids coming, they are great.
Hey, this was an amazing video!😀 I didn't fly much enough on thermals during my training years ago to refer constructively to this situation - but it surely was a potentially dangerous one. I hear that you have some anti-collision stuff on board - glider T-CAS or what!😀 Cool, but it seems that keeping your eyes wide open proved to be much more helpful👍😊 BTW - is the 50m separation between gliders in a thermal still the rule?😁 Great analysis and visualisation - thank you so much! My sub goes to you of course!😀👍
The anti-collision system is called Flarm.
@@letrix710 Thanks:)
The person who joined was probably an expert and would have blamed you anyway if taken to task about it.
Did you review the video with the safety committee
You lived to land and post the video. You did the right thing
Same happens in so many paragliding comps, there’s a gaggle of inexperienced pilots or coastal pilots who have little to no experience flying XC, so it’s always a mess when there’s over 50 gliders all grouped together, and always safety first, but when some muppet pushes their way into a thermal that’s already busy they can push five other gliders out and into a dangerous situation when they had no right of way to begin with!
Competitions really bring out the stupid in people at times
Well done in correcting yourself by simply being alert 👍🏻
Rubbin's racing!
I learned always that we should turn in a 180 degrees position of an other glider. If the hight is the same you have to wait to join the thermic and create hight distance.
But I remember that we flew with 4 planes in thermic and suddenly 3 gliders came just crossing us to pick some extra hight in the leg they flew. They were busy with a competition and they scared the shit out of me.
Scariest moment of my little flight career.
I was first on scene at a 2 glider impact. The guy who had just launched, took a third of the wing off my casualty who was in a thermal. He managed to control his aircraft, however on attempting to land, his intact wing clipped a fence post and his aircraft inverted. When I accessed him, he was still alive, he was airlifted out but sadly died in hospital from head trauma. The other guy lost his tail assembly and dived vertically into the ground, he died instantly. This occurred at Seighford glider field in Staffordshire, sad day, my casualty’s mother rang me on the day of the for three consecutive days, then stopped, never knew what happened to her.
The real problem is the cuffed jean shorts
Not sure how you could have handled it any differently, and I'm glad you're okay.
Usually going belly up into traffic will cause you to lose sight, and you have to assume he doesn't see you. However, an aggressive turn into the center of the circle (as you did) should keep you clear. I would probably have lowered my nose, leveled the wings, and gone under and behind him, then flying a wider turn to merge behind your traffic. That keeps him in sight the whole time. That maneuver would be more like an overshoot during a fighter/tactical aircraft formation turning rejoin, which I'm more used to doing (not that I overshoot the rejoin that often :) I couldn't see on the video where the traffic was after you steepened the turn. A radio call would have helped notify the others that you're "inside their turn for collision avoidance". I've seen others turn inside the circle, stall the glider, and fall down through the center of the thermal, scaring the crap out of everyone. I just saw a white flash falling by on my left, and a radio call, "Sorry guys". Be careful. Things can change very fast.
USAF, American Airlines, ASW28
Hello, here from the future to say this is exactly what I was thinking.
Thanks for posting this. When the glider in front of you reduced his bank and radius at about 2 minutes you continue turning tightly inside him. The normal reaction would have been to reduce bank also to avoid losing sight of him and avoid turning inside him. You say you could not have turned left because of the second duo. We can't see the position of the second duo but if you had reduced your bank you would at least have been in clear sight of one another. I think diving would have been worse than what you did because you would have been diving into air which you had not seen. Very glad it worked out ok
I think you did the right thing. Turn in tight but that looked like it nearly put you in conflict with the lead glider. Maybe the only thing I’d have done different was to also pull up a bit to get height separation but not too much. Always tricky. You should try flying Paraglider’s , a gaggle is mental and makes me sweat
What you should have done is have a very frank discussion with the two pilots who forced their way into the thermal.
So, as far as I see it, you went to the inside. It's quite obvious, when your mind tells you, you need to react somehow, as you stick is bouncing around quite a bit and fast. I think that's something we all do more or less, but it's interesting to note. Usually I would never ever cut the circle on the inside, because you could have easily cut off the two guys in front of you and later the one in front of them. Your bank angle at one time was around 80°. Those two guys in front of you were pretty damn close at this point also. But, you had no chance to straighten up and make room by going to the outside, because those two discus came in from there. So that was your only move. Scary, dude!
In paragliding you just walk on their wing when this happens ;-)
That's why paragliders usually get old, while glider pilots, not so much.
looks like great fun, but it doesn't look safe at all !!!
Dive, when your high enough. Build up speed. Dive is quicker than waiting for a stall to happen. :)
I don’t compete but I’ve bailed out of excellent thermals when there have been 3 or four of us and felt the risk of an accident was too high. That being said I would’ve tightened my turn as you did and then, if possible dived to be at a lower altitude.
If the taxpayer owned that glider rather than you being financially liable for it, you'd probably have just pulled the eject lever.
Your tighter turn actually put you into a lift surge increasing your climb so it should have given you an advantage. Being higher they would have to give way to you. By the corrections you were making it was obvious you were getting wish wash from other gliders indicating that there wasn't a lot of separation. I would have called them out at the briefing the next day and they should have been penalized. Hope you beat them around the course!!
That is a very tricky one, and looked very risky once you were on the inside of them. Obviously the joining gliders joined very badly, which often happens early in a contest when pilots are not current and forget how to time these things well. They should be aiming to slot in on the other side of the thermal from you three who are already established. I'd say the only safe option for you would have been to identified the upcoming problem earlier, at about 1:50 or well before. Only possible if you happened to have seen them! By then you should be able to see they might be joining badly and it would be wise to go around the outside of them. This is only possible with experience of course. Basically assume other pilots haven't seen you, and will do the worst thing possible. Also I noticed between the 1:48-1:58 mark your nose is moving from the outside of the glider in front to inside i.e. your bank angle was too steep, although the 'pressure' from the other joining gliders might have contributed to this. Never cut inside gliders while thermalling, you quickly loose sight of each other and you run out of options as you found. Thanks for sharing.
Some great points there Eat Sleep Van! 😂
So funny, how many comments from non-pilot better knowing persons you can find here... Just hilarious 😂 In my opinion, perfect reaction and not ur fault!
I would have been on the radio with some 4 letter words for those 2 planes
What you should have done is to get the two joiners after landing and punched them in the face. That was an extremely poor way of joining a thermal and that kind of behavior is unacceptable. I think that the general take home message for you is that people will do this kind of stunts, and you should fly considering that you might enter into that situation. However keep into account that I don't like gaggles and I leave the thermal when I can't have full vision of all the gliders in the thermal, so I normally leave thermals with more than three gliders, but I am not a competition pilot.
The 2 Duo's were very poor at entering the thermal barging in the way they did. They should have stayed outside the circle until a space appeared so they could tighten up into the core. You did the right thing to turn very tight because you can’t see below and a dive could have been very dangerous. I think the mist important thing about gaggle flying is to keep the speed up so you can turn on a wingtip if needed without spinning. I had a DG600 perform your manoeuvre above me in the Nationals at Dunstable in the 90's and it spun right past inside me which was not life threatening, but unnerving to say the least.
fired the two aim 9 from outer pylons would have solved the problem, if the glider had a heat source! ;) As someone else also said you could have reduced your bank and get back into thermal / get behind the gliders to have them in view. In my opinion the problem have been that all gliders where on one quarter of the circle and not spread over the full circle. Surely the gliders entering thermal had a very bad timing and should have done a less steep turn and enter at another part of the circle a little below you all because of the height loss... especially in thermal cooperative behaviour is very important but it does not work if the other "players" do not care about that! Communication over the radio would also have made sense i don't know how it is handled where you fly...
You landed and walked away = good move!
I think there should be radio contact with the other pilots in the competition. This way everyone can compete in harmony and help avoid mistakes. Obviously you made the right choice, you completely avoided them. If they crashed and you did not turn from their path by diving, the falling aircraft may have fallen right on top of ya, maybe even trapping an escape to parachute. I'm not a pilot but you got common sense for sure. I think the radio chatting skills could be recorded and added to scores, who can communicate the greatest gets extra credit.
Scary times!
I must say though, I didn’t see much of a lookout to the left before rolling into the thermal to the right.
If you can't see them, then you can't avoid them. It only takes two gliders to be in each others blind spot and it is game over. Competition vs flying safely is a no brainer.
Did he use his blinker to merge?
I wonder if there's any other noise the vario can make? Lol
good flyer
You should have just flipped the red switch and radioed "Fox 1, Fox 1"
Who cares what we think. You survived death with your quick thinking. Pat your back. One can only imagine what that thrill was like.
I do not fly gliders. What is the sounds for? Thanks for your answer! Subscribed, btw. I want to find out more about gliders!
Vario. It tells you if you are in raising or sinking air.
Stefano Borini thanks
Eject, eject ! ;)
This is the issue with competition, it makes people do things they wouldn't normally do. Take extra risk to gain something that, in hindsight, isn't worth anything.
Looks to me like you made the only move you could to avoid the collision at the point where you reacted, but that was too late and left only a bad option. At the point where you paused the video would have a better time to see that the two new gliders were going to force in, and you still had time to roll out and maintain visual with everyone else. They were at fault but that conversation can be had when everyone is safe on the ground.
It’s hard to say just looking at the video. Obviously what did worked. I’m glad no one got hurt. In all my over 50 years of flying, I’ve lost two friends in mid-air collisions. One was two airplanes. The other was a glider and an airplane. It looked like you were really alert in your situation. I guess that’s the best advice that I can offer - just stay alert, keep your eyes moving, and always leave yourself an out.
Yeah i would have been on the radio having a few words with him on that one.
Spoilers, speed brakes, sea anchor,
Bricks, rocks, stones and finally pea gravel ... How about a good sling shot ??? Rubber bands any one just to wake up the joining rubes .... great proactive recovery on your part ... Thanks for not turning the air inside your airship blue with 4 letters if encouragement and support!!😁 That looked close and could have turned leathal in seconds ... great flying ... thanks for sharing ...
Leave the thermal, good call ;)
Clearly the 2 joining gliders were in the wrong on this one. Did you consider pulling the spoilers or were there gliders below you as well?
You must assume there is someone below you when you are in a gagle...
I fly a Paraglider and I think the air law is the same, the glider on the right has priority especially if you are in a thermal. The glider joining the thermal should have done it from a safe distance. The glider joining is the one that should have done it in a safer manner. You didn't do wrong, you did all you could do.
I've never flown sailplanes, and certainly never in competition, but to me every part of that looked like a terrifying shit show from start to finish.
Would it have helped if there had been more communication between you all on the radio?
You can still talk about it. Right decision to leave.