Standard rules in Australia is to enter the thermal opposite side of any other gliders in the thermal, and radio that you are joining. Those two others joining were using bad form.
Standard rule in Europe is to enter the thermal in the opposite direction of other gliders. At least that is what I saw last summer. It was fun from the ground. Radio chatter suggested otherwise.
@@SR-gs8zo "...It was fun from the ground. Radio chatter suggested otherwise.", read the whole message next time. Maybe you get the joke in this tread.
Going into a dive is always a bad idea in thermals as you can't see beneath your plane. Steepening your turn whilst slightly increasing speed was a good reaction I think.
this is the reason I stopped competitions. People think, that everything can be under control. But it is chaotic by nature if the glider density gets to high. One small reaction from one glider can cause a chain reaction. This is one of the reason for collisions where nobody can be blamed really. The other reason is simply reckless flying from pilots who want to gain 3 seconds on pull ups in bussy thermals. We have to reduce glider density in competitions: change start procedures, stop 10km Flarm range, time delayed OGN only, give Bonus points for people in the lead
@@dwightbernheimer331 At least PG are soft and speeds are very slow so plenty time to find space or canopy walk etc... Nothing quite like 100kph fiberglass missile collision around you! ;)
I think you acted calmly, reacted quickly and also able to analyze this after the event. Hope the other person did the same or at least you spoke with them
In my view, soaring is a lot like mountain climbing. There are good reasons that there are not much competitions in mountain climbing. You can always compete with yourself by expanding your goals and experience. And I agree to Phillipp Keller that if people need to be in soaring competitions, then it should be more safe than today.
It was the right reaction, I accidently caused the same situation a few months ago. Luckely we were just with three, two twin astir II and i was flying a jeans astir cs. The instructor in the backseat of the twin reacts opposite to you and flies out of the thermal but in that situation that was the best reaction. In your situation it couldn't be possible cuz there were other gliders on your left side. Nice video though!
Having had competition gliders join me in thermals I have to say you have to treat them with the utmost respect because they don’t give a f**k about you or anyone else. They bully their way in and only care about their mission. It might be the few, but they leave the bad impression.
I have heard from a competition training course, that the trainers told their students "You need to be rude, otherwise you will not be among the winners." - Very dangerous attitude in those circles, I think.
what are the right of way rules for entering and operating in a gaggle? I presume the number one rule is those with the vision must yield. so if your behind, below(in a low or mid wing), or outside the turning radius you must yield. And what about how you yield? Tightening the turn? exitiing the thermal? dive or climb?
When in a gaggle you should use the same turning radius as the others . Trying to shorten that radius will bring you in a collision risk with those in front of you .
I'm currently attending a course for glider pilot and what I learn from this video is to avoid this kind of competitions. When there are so many gliders the safety drastically decreases, in my opinion... You never know which is the expertise and the sense of responsibility of another pilot. Thanks for sharing.
Glider pilot too here. Sounds like you should get a share of a TMG (tour motoring glider) then :D. Gliding is to my knowledge actually considered an "extreme sport", atleast to my ensurance company. Going into thermals with a couple of other gliders is a part of any competition in the gliding sport. If you just know how to fly and react to these situations, it's not so dangerous. That being said, it can of course be done as a hobby.
The way we flew back in a days - any joining glider has to yield to gliders already in a thermal. It is easy with 5 gliders, how about 52 in the same thermal? Being aware and polite is the rule. Lesson here - incoming glider pilot has to be more aware of the situation and someone has to teach them how to do it a proper way.
You really think that guy is flying in comp and doesn't know that protocol? Far more likley that he's one of the self-absorbed few who imagine "But the rules don't apply to me". Gliding doesn't have the monopoly on cretins 'though. Friend of mine flying a microlight to a meeting last week. He was second in the circuit with four or five following and the guy ahead on finals. From 'out of nowhere' some utter cock powered in slightly below circuit hight, barged straight in front to land. The rather terse exchange with tower showed (a) He had a working radio (b) No emergency and (c) His head up his egotistical arse. People like this are Darwin awards waiting to be presented.
Farweasel: we have them in sailboat racing and general powerboat usage in my part of the world. Invariably Male, invariably full of shite. What to do I ask myself. I agree most are candidates for the Darwin Awards - but some want to try and take me with them.....
@@Farweasel Put a high wing and low wing together at the relative altitudes where they can't see each other and that sort of thing can get really sporty. There's a YT vid showing two powered planes coming together in exactly that configuration just shy of the runway, and it was severely not pretty, they both went in VERY hard.
... That is not how I have learned to join a thermal, I hope you had the opportunity to have a chat with the guy who pushed you to make this manouevre.. he made a mistake not you, well done to prevent an accident, probably I would have done the same. What concerns me is that the flarm did not sound an alarm at the moment you reacted.. this means the glider on your left also did not have a warning.... The Flarm only made a sound after the incident.
The guy pushing in from the left has flying skills which indicate he's too stupid or too self-important to buy a flarm (or switch it on if one's fitted)!
I think you handled it well. For a start you identified the threat. Your evasive decision was consistent with the gaggle direction and you didn’t rely on the other pilots actions. Good job 👌
Pg pilot here with only limited sailplane experience: could you not have converted some of your speed into altitude, make a 270 over left and rejoin? Or were you flying next to your min sink speed there because it was a light day?
I was a glider pilot from 17 till 25 when I went ATPL but, that was bloody close. I was first on the scene when two gliders collided in a thermal, both fatalities and it was not pretty. The guys joining showed a complete disregard to good airmanship. P.S. Keep your vids coming, they are great.
A few years ago my friend Rudy was in a sailplane with a student who was in a thermal over a Pemberton, BC campsite and they were suddenly hit by a Cessna setting up for a landing at about 1500 ft asl with a man, his wife, and a dog, there were no survivors. Even though the sky is big, accidents happen.
Sorry for your loss, Scott. A helicopter almost crashed in me. I've seen him from far away coming from left. I tried to call him several times, saying we are on a collision course, but no reaction, probably another frequence. I was quite low and sinking, so I could not do a 360 and also take the risk to lose sight. I began to tango (rock the wings), but still no reaction. Guess he had a fucking tunnel vision to not notice me, but I kept doing until the end. When he was 100m at my 10, I got ready to pull hard right, this was the moment he noticed me doing the tango and I could see his shocked face. After a split second he banked like 70° left and dived, so I pulled up to almost a stall and pushed again before stalling. Fuck me, I got mad at this mofo...
Very instructive what could have happened. I experienced it and survived. The thermal pole was very narrow and very strong (4-8m / s), and there were seven of us .... heavy traffic. The climbing angle was over 50 degrees and there was a change control of direction and depth. I flew with the Blanik L13 because I had a student in flight training. It went wrong when the thermal pole suddenly stopped like cut off. Congratulations on your impeccable reaction ...
Thanks for posting this. When the glider in front of you reduced his bank and radius at about 2 minutes you continue turning tightly inside him. The normal reaction would have been to reduce bank also to avoid losing sight of him and avoid turning inside him. You say you could not have turned left because of the second duo. We can't see the position of the second duo but if you had reduced your bank you would at least have been in clear sight of one another. I think diving would have been worse than what you did because you would have been diving into air which you had not seen. Very glad it worked out ok
I had a similar event many years ago, we were thermalling clockwise, but only one glider joining and he didn't see me at all, I only saw him at the last second as he approached from the blind side of me, same altitude. I couldn't turn tighter (joining glider would have hit me), couldn't pull up (another glider above), couldn't dive away to the left as I would have hit the joining glider, couldn't dive down to the right as there was a glider down there as well. What I did was flatten my turn and go a bit wider, slide by the tail of the joining glider, let the glider cut in front of me, and then pull back into the thermal and try to re-space myself. There was about 6' between my nose and the the joining glider's tail. Someone higher up radioed down "One-Mike, you totally cut off Hotel Tango, look behind you" and I saw One Mike's head swivel back and 'jerk' with the reaction. I figured 'no blood - no foul' and tried to keep a cool head about it. All in all I think you did right.
I've never flown a glider (although it looks quite fun!) but it looks like you did the right thing. I fly a C172 out of a non-towered airport so we are forced to deconflict with other air traffic. Only thing you can really do is move out of the way and maintain the safety of your aircraft :) Love your videos by the way Simon
Gaggles can be really challenging cause u can lose sight of others. Just a few days ago I was circling with some other gliders when another gaggle arrived and I spotted one only when he was right in front of me on the same altitude - I way busy locating the others. In this case a short dive sorted it out but many time gliders approaching the thermal are not a war of the ones circling or just ignore. I am always surprised how sketchy it can become in a matter of seconds...
I remember back than when i did my PPLC i had a similary situation . I wasnt trained yet to fly so close with someone together in a thermal since i started practice flying solo on our dualseater just recently and i did exactly what you did, while i was in a climbing turn. i saw another glider coming in from my 10 oclock (almost 10 feet lower)and i instinctively banked hard right to turn away from him and egressed out of the thermal. Back on the ground i informed my teachers about the incident only to hear i could have just let him passed through first and join him from behind into the climbing circle but to my taste he came way to close to me and i rather chose not to colide. So in my book you did right :-)
I was first on scene at a 2 glider impact. The guy who had just launched, took a third of the wing off my casualty who was in a thermal. He managed to control his aircraft, however on attempting to land, his intact wing clipped a fence post and his aircraft inverted. When I accessed him, he was still alive, he was airlifted out but sadly died in hospital from head trauma. The other guy lost his tail assembly and dived vertically into the ground, he died instantly. This occurred at Seighford glider field in Staffordshire, sad day, my casualty’s mother rang me on the day of the for three consecutive days, then stopped, never knew what happened to her.
I think you did the right thing. Turn in tight but that looked like it nearly put you in conflict with the lead glider. Maybe the only thing I’d have done different was to also pull up a bit to get height separation but not too much. Always tricky. You should try flying Paraglider’s , a gaggle is mental and makes me sweat
Usually going belly up into traffic will cause you to lose sight, and you have to assume he doesn't see you. However, an aggressive turn into the center of the circle (as you did) should keep you clear. I would probably have lowered my nose, leveled the wings, and gone under and behind him, then flying a wider turn to merge behind your traffic. That keeps him in sight the whole time. That maneuver would be more like an overshoot during a fighter/tactical aircraft formation turning rejoin, which I'm more used to doing (not that I overshoot the rejoin that often :) I couldn't see on the video where the traffic was after you steepened the turn. A radio call would have helped notify the others that you're "inside their turn for collision avoidance". I've seen others turn inside the circle, stall the glider, and fall down through the center of the thermal, scaring the crap out of everyone. I just saw a white flash falling by on my left, and a radio call, "Sorry guys". Be careful. Things can change very fast. USAF, American Airlines, ASW28
I fly a Paraglider and I think the air law is the same, the glider on the right has priority especially if you are in a thermal. The glider joining the thermal should have done it from a safe distance. The glider joining is the one that should have done it in a safer manner. You didn't do wrong, you did all you could do.
That is a very tricky one, and looked very risky once you were on the inside of them. Obviously the joining gliders joined very badly, which often happens early in a contest when pilots are not current and forget how to time these things well. They should be aiming to slot in on the other side of the thermal from you three who are already established. I'd say the only safe option for you would have been to identified the upcoming problem earlier, at about 1:50 or well before. Only possible if you happened to have seen them! By then you should be able to see they might be joining badly and it would be wise to go around the outside of them. This is only possible with experience of course. Basically assume other pilots haven't seen you, and will do the worst thing possible. Also I noticed between the 1:48-1:58 mark your nose is moving from the outside of the glider in front to inside i.e. your bank angle was too steep, although the 'pressure' from the other joining gliders might have contributed to this. Never cut inside gliders while thermalling, you quickly loose sight of each other and you run out of options as you found. Thanks for sharing.
Gliders are scary. I was WAY to close to one on a summer's day like this a few years ago. I was cruising along at 4500 feet when it appeared out of nowhere at my 10 o'clock about a 100 feet above me. He wasn't on frequency either.
I get very nervous when traffic is about close ...rather 1 or 2 at max. Dive???perhaps....you did react and were watchful for entering traffic well done.
There was little you could have done except turn very tightly, gain speed and don’t try and straighten up to exit the thermal too quickly because if you do, you’ll be likely to hit one of the slower gliders flying a normal thermaling course. The whole problem arose when you positioned yourself inside the gliders in front. I have been in this situation a number of times and the only way to really avoid it is to never fly inside another glider in a thermal when there are gaggles, especially in the pre start and there’s lots of lift about. You don’t need to fight for the best lift in such circumstance. Just accept the guy in front is not in the core and stay behind him so you can exit away from the thermal as soon as you see others joining ahead. I will only fly inside another glider that isn’t in the core if there are only two of us in the same thermal and at the same height. It’s always frustrating having to follow someone who isn’t in the best lift, but when all you are doing is waiting for the start, it’s the safest place to be.
As a matter of interest, how do pilots find thermals, do they just fly along and hope the beeping will start to indicate they've hit a thermal? Or is there a science to knowing where to find thermals?
Some terrain features generate thermals, so they are a place to go. Pilots get to know their regions and where thermals form, and yes you can just find them also.
@@yarpos Thanks, and as another matter of interest, are there some glider pilots who win more competitions than everybody else?..if so, what makes them so good, are they better at finding thermals or what?
@@tungstenkid2271 On most days thermals are marked by a fluffy cumulus cloud so fly towards it. Blue days are more difficult, watch for other sailplanes climbing also the thermals can follow a line of energy maybe a ground feature kicking them off. Go and take a gliding lesson .
@@petergoulding2421 RCing I used to watch for birds thermalling. I had a slightly better vantage point for that, though, on the ground, I expect. The birds never seemed to care if I thermalled with them, although I would occasionally see them incorporate some avoidance. Probably thinking the same thing about my glider as the established thermalling pilots were about these entering gliders.
fired the two aim 9 from outer pylons would have solved the problem, if the glider had a heat source! ;) As someone else also said you could have reduced your bank and get back into thermal / get behind the gliders to have them in view. In my opinion the problem have been that all gliders where on one quarter of the circle and not spread over the full circle. Surely the gliders entering thermal had a very bad timing and should have done a less steep turn and enter at another part of the circle a little below you all because of the height loss... especially in thermal cooperative behaviour is very important but it does not work if the other "players" do not care about that! Communication over the radio would also have made sense i don't know how it is handled where you fly...
..First, I'm really glad you shared this. I have been in this situation, and my reaction, as I recall was identical. And in the cockpit, I probably would have done the exact same thing. But reviewing it several times... would it have hurt to go outside? Once you saw the the #1 (most outside joinging glider) you could have levelled and let him go through you into the thermal, then gone way out wide left and "button-hooked" back in to join. This way you would have kept all gliders in view while they sorted out there "horgy borgy" mess!
I should state... What I said above breaks the etiquette rules of thermalling and the real rules of right of way. The joining gliders give way! But I really like seeing as many other vehicles as possible and turning in tight really wrecks that.
I think you did not have many options and you did your best. I think safety should be the top priority of all pilots, competition comes at No.2. All the best for your future! Anil
Looks to me like you made the only move you could to avoid the collision at the point where you reacted, but that was too late and left only a bad option. At the point where you paused the video would have a better time to see that the two new gliders were going to force in, and you still had time to roll out and maintain visual with everyone else. They were at fault but that conversation can be had when everyone is safe on the ground.
What you should have done is to get the two joiners after landing and punched them in the face. That was an extremely poor way of joining a thermal and that kind of behavior is unacceptable. I think that the general take home message for you is that people will do this kind of stunts, and you should fly considering that you might enter into that situation. However keep into account that I don't like gaggles and I leave the thermal when I can't have full vision of all the gliders in the thermal, so I normally leave thermals with more than three gliders, but I am not a competition pilot.
This is the issue with competition, it makes people do things they wouldn't normally do. Take extra risk to gain something that, in hindsight, isn't worth anything.
I was thinking once you rolled your yaw angle over you would dive away from the dangerous situation but apparently it wasnt close enough. Clearly you lived to tell about it.
What looks scary for me it hat the pilot looks at the center of the spiral and not a glance at the glider in front of him. Did he missed it ? And he is not supposed to pass it, by the inside !
Simon! glider 2 is the intruder! However i am sure you in hindsight would have eased your turn and gone in after glider 2. On the other hand you flew as a old hardened competition pilot.
So, as far as I see it, you went to the inside. It's quite obvious, when your mind tells you, you need to react somehow, as you stick is bouncing around quite a bit and fast. I think that's something we all do more or less, but it's interesting to note. Usually I would never ever cut the circle on the inside, because you could have easily cut off the two guys in front of you and later the one in front of them. Your bank angle at one time was around 80°. Those two guys in front of you were pretty damn close at this point also. But, you had no chance to straighten up and make room by going to the outside, because those two discus came in from there. So that was your only move. Scary, dude!
If you can't see them, then you can't avoid them. It only takes two gliders to be in each others blind spot and it is game over. Competition vs flying safely is a no brainer.
It’s hard to say just looking at the video. Obviously what did worked. I’m glad no one got hurt. In all my over 50 years of flying, I’ve lost two friends in mid-air collisions. One was two airplanes. The other was a glider and an airplane. It looked like you were really alert in your situation. I guess that’s the best advice that I can offer - just stay alert, keep your eyes moving, and always leave yourself an out.
I don't know what you or others think about this. It seemed like you wanted to keep altitude. If you knew there were no gliders below, a hard wingover to the right and dive, if you had the energy, if there was no conflict would have been the quickest bet out of danger?
@@henrikgormsen1020Listen to the video, all the way I am answering his question only in context of what happened there. He asked, "what should I have done"...I was only speaking about him not getting hit..what should/could he have done... was all in this circumstance. It looked like he was on the edge of having no elevator authority possibly. Of course, those entering are supposed to give way and one is never supposed to dive into the thermal unless he/she has no other choice and then not putting someone else at risk. (I race btw).
@@michaelabell6862 Well yes, i don't think we disagree ;-) Those two morons, if they were part of the competition, and it was as well documented as here, they should be sendt home. They simply put others in a bad posision, where they again very fast can be put into doing things that is ekstemly dangerous. Only exclution will send the propper signal. They know when they do it !! ( I race too)
@@henrikgormsen1020 Lol, yeah. I was flying this weekend, and a person I know, but don't trust fully came in on my 6, about 1-200m up and I knew he would not be able to see me, and all he had to do was wait a bit. We were thermaling with about 300m of clearance above a ridge in Tennesee. I bailed and came back. Waiting to have the "discussion" with him...lol...if it matters.
A bit difficult to judge. Both gliders in front of you disappear under your panel just at the moment you react. So we can't see how close you were. I think in this situation you just had 2 options. One is to simply maintain your flight path. This would have been most convenient for the following gliders, as you would have been predictable. If it was really dangerously close, going to the inside was the only thing you could do in my opinion. Lowering speed,going to outside, using spoilers wouldn't have been options. The entering glider that caused this, could have simply used his spoilers to enter the thermal below you.
My opinion to this is that you have to stay behind the other 2 gliders in front of you and NOT get to the inside. Glider Nr. 1 has to see you and has to give way to you, as he is the one entering the thermal. If you do the same in a 30+ glider gaggle, there is a high chance you will crash into someone as you have no escape route. One important thing is to stay calculabe for the other gliders.
Went belly up to the glider on which you were essentially flying formation with. Should have done an overshoot maneuver flying below and to the outside of the traffic you were converging upon. Diving under offers more energy for maneuvering and the best visual of the most airspace where you know you have aircraft that you must keep an eye on. Belly up and converging on 2 or 3 planes at similar altitude is not a good plan. Betting your life you're turning tighter than they are. If this type of thing is typical, you all need to be formation qualified.
Your tighter turn actually put you into a lift surge increasing your climb so it should have given you an advantage. Being higher they would have to give way to you. By the corrections you were making it was obvious you were getting wish wash from other gliders indicating that there wasn't a lot of separation. I would have called them out at the briefing the next day and they should have been penalized. Hope you beat them around the course!!
As someone who knows nothing about flying. This was very poorly explained. I know nothing what happened. I don't even know what that weird beeping was.
I don’t think you could have done much else, the other pilot in that duo should have taken a wider route around the thermal first to give you and the other gliders separation before fully entering the thermal
I'm not sure what you "should" have done, but clearly you did the right thing because no one was in trouble. I think if you went for a dive that may have been the only other option. If you were able to reduce speed, then there was a chance you would have struck another glider. It just looked like a bad traffic jam, and the other gliders trying to move in should have waited until you guys had more altitude.
From an ACM point of view, i consider this very dangerous: First, you pulled into the turn and gave away kinetic energy. This can lead to a stall if you have to correct even harder. Second, you gave away your vision of the enemy fighters. Lose sight lose fight. So, in such a situation, i will always choose to give away my position to gain maneuvering speed and distance. The right move would have been a dive to make sure you have all the other planes in sight and queue up behind the last one. IMHO
I don’t compete but I’ve bailed out of excellent thermals when there have been 3 or four of us and felt the risk of an accident was too high. That being said I would’ve tightened my turn as you did and then, if possible dived to be at a lower altitude.
Agreed he did well. It happens all the time-this is the problem and it shouldn't happen all the time. Joining pilots should accommodate the established gliders as the joining ships have the most maneuvering room on the outside. Getting away with it doesn't mean it was proper.
@@dinos8557 Right, but as the room is not enought for the firdt person pilot, rolling in a steep turn or very high rate turn is not that worse, I mean avoiding the collision looks ok, Also he saw the incoming glider.Yes the incoming pilot does not have to cut short the path, Like on the road you got assholes! It should not happens.
Standard rules in Australia is to enter the thermal opposite side of any other gliders in the thermal, and radio that you are joining.
Those two others joining were using bad form.
Standard rule in Europe is to enter the thermal in the opposite direction of other gliders. At least that is what I saw last summer. It was fun from the ground. Radio chatter suggested otherwise.
@@SR-gs8zo "...It was fun from the ground. Radio chatter suggested otherwise.", read the whole message next time. Maybe you get the joke in this tread.
Same rules in France
Going into a dive is always a bad idea in thermals as you can't see beneath your plane. Steepening your turn whilst slightly increasing speed was a good reaction I think.
I agree.you did the best in situation
this is the reason I stopped competitions. People think, that everything can be under control. But it is chaotic by nature if the glider density gets to high. One small reaction from one glider can cause a chain reaction. This is one of the reason for collisions where nobody can be blamed really. The other reason is simply reckless flying from pilots who want to gain 3 seconds on pull ups in bussy thermals. We have to reduce glider density in competitions: change start procedures, stop 10km Flarm range, time delayed OGN only, give Bonus points for people in the lead
If you think that's close go to a major paragliding competition and look at those guys LOL good stuff thanks for posting
@@dwightbernheimer331 At least PG are soft and speeds are very slow so plenty time to find space or canopy walk etc... Nothing quite like 100kph fiberglass missile collision around you! ;)
Therussy
VFR see and avoid......nailed it.
exactly why i don't like to fly competitions: people tend to bully their way into thermals and shit get loose
I think you acted calmly, reacted quickly and also able to analyze this after the event. Hope the other person did the same or at least you spoke with them
In my view, soaring is a lot like mountain climbing. There are good reasons that there are not much competitions in mountain climbing. You can always compete with yourself by expanding your goals and experience.
And I agree to Phillipp Keller that if people need to be in soaring competitions, then it should be more safe than today.
It was the right reaction, I accidently caused the same situation a few months ago. Luckely we were just with three, two twin astir II and i was flying a jeans astir cs. The instructor in the backseat of the twin reacts opposite to you and flies out of the thermal but in that situation that was the best reaction. In your situation it couldn't be possible cuz there were other gliders on your left side. Nice video though!
I think you did the right thing .
Interestingly as you tightened the right turn your vario indicated more lift ?
Having had competition gliders join me in thermals I have to say you have to treat them with the utmost respect because they don’t give a f**k about you or anyone else. They bully their way in and only care about their mission. It might be the few, but they leave the bad impression.
I have heard from a competition training course, that the trainers told their students "You need to be rude, otherwise you will not be among the winners." - Very dangerous attitude in those circles, I think.
What's the beeping?
what are the right of way rules for entering and operating in a gaggle? I presume the number one rule is those with the vision must yield. so if your behind, below(in a low or mid wing), or outside the turning radius you must yield. And what about how you yield? Tightening the turn? exitiing the thermal? dive or climb?
TCAS and proximity apps definitely needed for that many aircraft. Spacing requirements for gliders in the same thermals?
When in a gaggle you should use the same turning radius as the others . Trying to shorten that radius will bring you in a collision risk with those in front of you .
I'm currently attending a course for glider pilot and what I learn from this video is to avoid this kind of competitions. When there are so many gliders the safety drastically decreases, in my opinion... You never know which is the expertise and the sense of responsibility of another pilot. Thanks for sharing.
Glider pilot too here. Sounds like you should get a share of a TMG (tour motoring glider) then :D.
Gliding is to my knowledge actually considered an "extreme sport", atleast to my ensurance company.
Going into thermals with a couple of other gliders is a part of any competition in the gliding sport. If you just know how to fly and react to these situations, it's not so dangerous.
That being said, it can of course be done as a hobby.
@@torx0149 Hhhh "Move over and let the real Men show you Marco ...." Crikey! Is there a Hells Angels flying club?
The way we flew back in a days - any joining glider has to yield to gliders already in a thermal. It is easy with 5 gliders, how about 52 in the same thermal? Being aware and polite is the rule. Lesson here - incoming glider pilot has to be more aware of the situation and someone has to teach them how to do it a proper way.
You really think that guy is flying in comp and doesn't know that protocol?
Far more likley that he's one of the self-absorbed few who imagine "But the rules don't apply to me".
Gliding doesn't have the monopoly on cretins 'though.
Friend of mine flying a microlight to a meeting last week. He was second in the circuit with four or five following and the guy ahead on finals. From 'out of nowhere' some utter cock powered in slightly below circuit hight, barged straight in front to land. The rather terse exchange with tower showed (a) He had a working radio (b) No emergency and (c) His head up his egotistical arse.
People like this are Darwin awards waiting to be presented.
Farweasel: we have them in sailboat racing and general powerboat usage in my part of the world. Invariably Male, invariably full of shite. What to do I ask myself. I agree most are candidates for the Darwin Awards - but some want to try and take me with them.....
@@Farweasel Put a high wing and low wing together at the relative altitudes where they can't see each other and that sort of thing can get really sporty. There's a YT vid showing two powered planes coming together in exactly that configuration just shy of the runway, and it was severely not pretty, they both went in VERY hard.
... That is not how I have learned to join a thermal, I hope you had the opportunity to have a chat with the guy who pushed you to make this manouevre.. he made a mistake not you, well done to prevent an accident, probably I would have done the same.
What concerns me is that the flarm did not sound an alarm at the moment you reacted.. this means the glider on your left also did not have a warning.... The Flarm only made a sound after the incident.
The guy pushing in from the left has flying skills which indicate he's too stupid or too self-important to buy a flarm (or switch it on if one's fitted)!
I think you handled it well. For a start you identified the threat. Your evasive decision was consistent with the gaggle direction and you didn’t rely on the other pilots actions. Good job 👌
Pg pilot here with only limited sailplane experience: could you not have converted some of your speed into altitude, make a 270 over left and rejoin? Or were you flying next to your min sink speed there because it was a light day?
I think you reacted really well. The other pilot, if they can be called that. not so much.
I was a glider pilot from 17 till 25 when I went ATPL but, that was bloody close. I was first on the scene when two gliders collided in a thermal, both fatalities and it was not pretty. The guys joining showed a complete disregard to good airmanship. P.S. Keep your vids coming, they are great.
A few years ago my friend Rudy was in a sailplane with a student who was in a thermal over a Pemberton, BC campsite and they were suddenly hit by a Cessna setting up for a landing at about 1500 ft asl with a man, his wife, and a dog, there were no survivors. Even though the sky is big, accidents happen.
Sorry for your loss, Scott.
A helicopter almost crashed in me. I've seen him from far away coming from left. I tried to call him several times, saying we are on a collision course, but no reaction, probably another frequence. I was quite low and sinking, so I could not do a 360 and also take the risk to lose sight. I began to tango (rock the wings), but still no reaction. Guess he had a fucking tunnel vision to not notice me, but I kept doing until the end. When he was 100m at my 10, I got ready to pull hard right, this was the moment he noticed me doing the tango and I could see his shocked face. After a split second he banked like 70° left and dived, so I pulled up to almost a stall and pushed again before stalling. Fuck me, I got mad at this mofo...
Did you review the video with the safety committee
Very instructive what could have happened. I experienced it and survived. The thermal pole was very narrow and very strong (4-8m / s), and there were seven of us .... heavy traffic. The climbing angle was over 50 degrees and there was a change control of direction and depth. I flew with the Blanik L13 because I had a student in flight training. It went wrong when the thermal pole suddenly stopped like cut off. Congratulations on your impeccable reaction ...
Hi Simon, how are you?
I'm from Colombia
I have a question, i needs an authorization for fly it?
Not Simon but you need a license
The person who joined was probably an expert and would have blamed you anyway if taken to task about it.
Thanks for posting this. When the glider in front of you reduced his bank and radius at about 2 minutes you continue turning tightly inside him. The normal reaction would have been to reduce bank also to avoid losing sight of him and avoid turning inside him. You say you could not have turned left because of the second duo. We can't see the position of the second duo but if you had reduced your bank you would at least have been in clear sight of one another. I think diving would have been worse than what you did because you would have been diving into air which you had not seen. Very glad it worked out ok
Would it have helped if there had been more communication between you all on the radio?
I had a similar event many years ago, we were thermalling clockwise, but only one glider joining and he didn't see me at all, I only saw him at the last second as he approached from the blind side of me, same altitude. I couldn't turn tighter (joining glider would have hit me), couldn't pull up (another glider above), couldn't dive away to the left as I would have hit the joining glider, couldn't dive down to the right as there was a glider down there as well. What I did was flatten my turn and go a bit wider, slide by the tail of the joining glider, let the glider cut in front of me, and then pull back into the thermal and try to re-space myself. There was about 6' between my nose and the the joining glider's tail. Someone higher up radioed down "One-Mike, you totally cut off Hotel Tango, look behind you" and I saw One Mike's head swivel back and 'jerk' with the reaction. I figured 'no blood - no foul' and tried to keep a cool head about it. All in all I think you did right.
What is the model of the vario used in this video?
I've never flown a glider (although it looks quite fun!) but it looks like you did the right thing. I fly a C172 out of a non-towered airport so we are forced to deconflict with other air traffic. Only thing you can really do is move out of the way and maintain the safety of your aircraft :)
Love your videos by the way Simon
Thanks for sharing mate!
Gaggles can be really challenging cause u can lose sight of others. Just a few days ago I was circling with some other gliders when another gaggle arrived and I spotted one only when he was right in front of me on the same altitude - I way busy locating the others. In this case a short dive sorted it out but many time gliders approaching the thermal are not a war of the ones circling or just ignore. I am always surprised how sketchy it can become in a matter of seconds...
what is that beeping noise constantly going? I thought people flew gliders for the peace and tranquility...
its the variometer which tells you whether the glider is climbing or sinking. Low slow beeps fast sink & high fast beeps climbing like an angel.
@@petergoulding2421 Or a homesick Martian. :-)
I remember back than when i did my PPLC i had a similary situation . I wasnt trained yet to fly so close with someone together in a thermal since i started practice flying solo on our dualseater just recently and i did exactly what you did, while i was in a climbing turn. i saw another glider coming in from my 10 oclock (almost 10 feet lower)and i instinctively banked hard right to turn away from him and egressed out of the thermal. Back on the ground i informed my teachers about the incident only to hear i could have just let him passed through first and join him from behind into the climbing circle but to my taste he came way to close to me and i rather chose not to colide. So in my book you did right :-)
I do not fly gliders. What is the sounds for? Thanks for your answer! Subscribed, btw. I want to find out more about gliders!
Vario. It tells you if you are in raising or sinking air.
Stefano Borini thanks
I was first on scene at a 2 glider impact. The guy who had just launched, took a third of the wing off my casualty who was in a thermal. He managed to control his aircraft, however on attempting to land, his intact wing clipped a fence post and his aircraft inverted. When I accessed him, he was still alive, he was airlifted out but sadly died in hospital from head trauma. The other guy lost his tail assembly and dived vertically into the ground, he died instantly. This occurred at Seighford glider field in Staffordshire, sad day, my casualty’s mother rang me on the day of the for three consecutive days, then stopped, never knew what happened to her.
I think you did the right thing. Turn in tight but that looked like it nearly put you in conflict with the lead glider. Maybe the only thing I’d have done different was to also pull up a bit to get height separation but not too much. Always tricky. You should try flying Paraglider’s , a gaggle is mental and makes me sweat
Usually going belly up into traffic will cause you to lose sight, and you have to assume he doesn't see you. However, an aggressive turn into the center of the circle (as you did) should keep you clear. I would probably have lowered my nose, leveled the wings, and gone under and behind him, then flying a wider turn to merge behind your traffic. That keeps him in sight the whole time. That maneuver would be more like an overshoot during a fighter/tactical aircraft formation turning rejoin, which I'm more used to doing (not that I overshoot the rejoin that often :) I couldn't see on the video where the traffic was after you steepened the turn. A radio call would have helped notify the others that you're "inside their turn for collision avoidance". I've seen others turn inside the circle, stall the glider, and fall down through the center of the thermal, scaring the crap out of everyone. I just saw a white flash falling by on my left, and a radio call, "Sorry guys". Be careful. Things can change very fast.
USAF, American Airlines, ASW28
Hello, here from the future to say this is exactly what I was thinking.
I fly a Paraglider and I think the air law is the same, the glider on the right has priority especially if you are in a thermal. The glider joining the thermal should have done it from a safe distance. The glider joining is the one that should have done it in a safer manner. You didn't do wrong, you did all you could do.
Traffic jams in the sky? Not for me, thank you. That looked more like a dogfight.
That is a very tricky one, and looked very risky once you were on the inside of them. Obviously the joining gliders joined very badly, which often happens early in a contest when pilots are not current and forget how to time these things well. They should be aiming to slot in on the other side of the thermal from you three who are already established. I'd say the only safe option for you would have been to identified the upcoming problem earlier, at about 1:50 or well before. Only possible if you happened to have seen them! By then you should be able to see they might be joining badly and it would be wise to go around the outside of them. This is only possible with experience of course. Basically assume other pilots haven't seen you, and will do the worst thing possible. Also I noticed between the 1:48-1:58 mark your nose is moving from the outside of the glider in front to inside i.e. your bank angle was too steep, although the 'pressure' from the other joining gliders might have contributed to this. Never cut inside gliders while thermalling, you quickly loose sight of each other and you run out of options as you found. Thanks for sharing.
Some great points there Eat Sleep Van! 😂
Gliders are scary. I was WAY to close to one on a summer's day like this a few years ago. I was cruising along at 4500 feet when it appeared out of nowhere at my 10 o'clock about a 100 feet above me. He wasn't on frequency either.
I get very nervous when traffic is about close ...rather 1 or 2 at max. Dive???perhaps....you did react and were watchful for entering traffic well done.
There was little you could have done except turn very tightly, gain speed and don’t try and straighten up to exit the thermal too quickly because if you do, you’ll be likely to hit one of the slower gliders flying a normal thermaling course. The whole problem arose when you positioned yourself inside the gliders in front.
I have been in this situation a number of times and the only way to really avoid it is to never fly inside another glider in a thermal when there are gaggles, especially in the pre start and there’s lots of lift about. You don’t need to fight for the best lift in such circumstance. Just accept the guy in front is not in the core and stay behind him so you can exit away from the thermal as soon as you see others joining ahead. I will only fly inside another glider that isn’t in the core if there are only two of us in the same thermal and at the same height.
It’s always frustrating having to follow someone who isn’t in the best lift, but when all you are doing is waiting for the start, it’s the safest place to be.
Did he use his blinker to merge?
What you should have done is have a very frank discussion with the two pilots who forced their way into the thermal.
You lived to land and post the video. You did the right thing
As a matter of interest, how do pilots find thermals, do they just fly along and hope the beeping will start to indicate they've hit a thermal? Or is there a science to knowing where to find thermals?
Some terrain features generate thermals, so they are a place to go. Pilots get to know their regions and where thermals form, and yes you can just find them also.
@@yarpos Thanks, and as another matter of interest, are there some glider pilots who win more competitions than everybody else?..if so, what makes them so good, are they better at finding thermals or what?
@@tungstenkid2271 On most days thermals are marked by a fluffy cumulus cloud so fly towards it. Blue days are more difficult, watch for other sailplanes climbing also the thermals can follow a line of energy maybe a ground feature kicking them off. Go and take a gliding lesson
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@@petergoulding2421 RCing I used to watch for birds thermalling. I had a slightly better vantage point for that, though, on the ground, I expect. The birds never seemed to care if I thermalled with them, although I would occasionally see them incorporate some avoidance. Probably thinking the same thing about my glider as the established thermalling pilots were about these entering gliders.
fired the two aim 9 from outer pylons would have solved the problem, if the glider had a heat source! ;) As someone else also said you could have reduced your bank and get back into thermal / get behind the gliders to have them in view. In my opinion the problem have been that all gliders where on one quarter of the circle and not spread over the full circle. Surely the gliders entering thermal had a very bad timing and should have done a less steep turn and enter at another part of the circle a little below you all because of the height loss... especially in thermal cooperative behaviour is very important but it does not work if the other "players" do not care about that! Communication over the radio would also have made sense i don't know how it is handled where you fly...
You wanted our opinion, well, you did the RIGHTEST thing, well done, tightening the turn in the same direction and not over reacting, good nerves.
I think your reaction was adequate and timely. There was not much time to think, it was a safety call. Thanks for sharing this.
I think you handled that just right. Main thing was that you were alert to what was developing.
..First, I'm really glad you shared this. I have been in this situation, and my reaction, as I recall was identical. And in the cockpit, I probably would have done the exact same thing. But reviewing it several times... would it have hurt to go outside? Once you saw the the #1 (most outside joinging glider) you could have levelled and let him go through you into the thermal, then gone way out wide left and "button-hooked" back in to join. This way you would have kept all gliders in view while they sorted out there "horgy borgy" mess!
I should state... What I said above breaks the etiquette rules of thermalling and the real rules of right of way. The joining gliders give way! But I really like seeing as many other vehicles as possible and turning in tight really wrecks that.
Middle finger evolving into a boot to the head once you have sought him out on the terra firma
I think you did not have many options and you did your best. I think safety should be the top priority of all pilots, competition comes at No.2. All the best for your future! Anil
The situation went out well so you reacted correctly. Nice vid..
I wonder if there's any other noise the vario can make? Lol
Looks to me like you made the only move you could to avoid the collision at the point where you reacted, but that was too late and left only a bad option. At the point where you paused the video would have a better time to see that the two new gliders were going to force in, and you still had time to roll out and maintain visual with everyone else. They were at fault but that conversation can be had when everyone is safe on the ground.
Scary times!
I must say though, I didn’t see much of a lookout to the left before rolling into the thermal to the right.
What you should have done is to get the two joiners after landing and punched them in the face. That was an extremely poor way of joining a thermal and that kind of behavior is unacceptable. I think that the general take home message for you is that people will do this kind of stunts, and you should fly considering that you might enter into that situation. However keep into account that I don't like gaggles and I leave the thermal when I can't have full vision of all the gliders in the thermal, so I normally leave thermals with more than three gliders, but I am not a competition pilot.
"Should've hit the brakes, and watched them fly right by".
Breaks? What?
What if someone is under you and you don't see him? He did right, what he did.
Clearly the 2 joining gliders were in the wrong on this one. Did you consider pulling the spoilers or were there gliders below you as well?
You must assume there is someone below you when you are in a gagle...
so what is that sound that changes pitch??? What does that do???
Joel T This is our variometer and it gives an aural indication of Vertical speed
You should have just flipped the red switch and radioed "Fox 1, Fox 1"
Dive, when your high enough. Build up speed. Dive is quicker than waiting for a stall to happen. :)
This is the issue with competition, it makes people do things they wouldn't normally do. Take extra risk to gain something that, in hindsight, isn't worth anything.
The real problem is the cuffed jean shorts
you did the right thing good heads up flying!
Even kort door de bocht: Flying Simon signaleert gevaar en vliegt weg......prima! 👍🏼😉
I was thinking once you rolled your yaw angle over you would dive away from the dangerous situation but apparently it wasnt close enough. Clearly you lived to tell about it.
What looks scary for me it hat the pilot looks at the center of the spiral and not a glance at the glider in front of him. Did he missed it ?
And he is not supposed to pass it, by the inside !
Simon! glider 2 is the intruder! However i am sure you in hindsight would have eased your turn and gone in after glider 2. On the other hand you flew as a old hardened competition pilot.
So, as far as I see it, you went to the inside. It's quite obvious, when your mind tells you, you need to react somehow, as you stick is bouncing around quite a bit and fast. I think that's something we all do more or less, but it's interesting to note. Usually I would never ever cut the circle on the inside, because you could have easily cut off the two guys in front of you and later the one in front of them. Your bank angle at one time was around 80°. Those two guys in front of you were pretty damn close at this point also. But, you had no chance to straighten up and make room by going to the outside, because those two discus came in from there. So that was your only move. Scary, dude!
You did all you could. I hope the two that joined right alongside other gliders in the gaggle got a good talkin' to!
If you can't see them, then you can't avoid them. It only takes two gliders to be in each others blind spot and it is game over. Competition vs flying safely is a no brainer.
looks like great fun, but it doesn't look safe at all !!!
It’s hard to say just looking at the video. Obviously what did worked. I’m glad no one got hurt. In all my over 50 years of flying, I’ve lost two friends in mid-air collisions. One was two airplanes. The other was a glider and an airplane. It looked like you were really alert in your situation. I guess that’s the best advice that I can offer - just stay alert, keep your eyes moving, and always leave yourself an out.
You hooked me with that intro.
Fun fact: It is! But played backwards ;)
@@FlyingSimon You naughty you.
Quite original by the way👍
From the camera perspective it looked far more dire. I was thinking roll the glider passed 90 degrees and pull the spoilers to find an exit.
I don't know what you or others think about this. It seemed like you wanted to keep altitude. If you knew there were no gliders below, a hard wingover to the right and dive, if you had the energy, if there was no conflict would have been the quickest bet out of danger?
Wrong. If evrybody did that, you would have a massive problem. There is only one solution. Joining gliders give way,- period.
@@henrikgormsen1020Listen to the video, all the way I am answering his question only in context of what happened there. He asked, "what should I have done"...I was only speaking about him not getting hit..what should/could he have done... was all in this circumstance. It looked like he was on the edge of having no elevator authority possibly. Of course, those entering are supposed to give way and one is never supposed to dive into the thermal unless he/she has no other choice and then not putting someone else at risk. (I race btw).
@@michaelabell6862 Well yes, i don't think we disagree ;-) Those two morons, if they were part of the competition, and it was as well documented as here, they should be sendt home. They simply put others in a bad posision, where they again very fast can be put into doing things that is ekstemly dangerous. Only exclution will send the propper signal. They know when they do it !! ( I race too)
@@henrikgormsen1020 Lol, yeah. I was flying this weekend, and a person I know, but don't trust fully came in on my 6, about 1-200m up and I knew he would not be able to see me, and all he had to do was wait a bit. We were thermaling with about 300m of clearance above a ridge in Tennesee. I bailed and came back. Waiting to have the "discussion" with him...lol...if it matters.
You did fine. Good work.. Gaggles are chaotic.
A bit difficult to judge. Both gliders in front of you disappear under your panel just at the moment you react. So we can't see how close you were. I think in this situation you just had 2 options. One is to simply maintain your flight path. This would have been most convenient for the following gliders, as you would have been predictable. If it was really dangerously close, going to the inside was the only thing you could do in my opinion. Lowering speed,going to outside, using spoilers wouldn't have been options.
The entering glider that caused this, could have simply used his spoilers to enter the thermal below you.
My opinion to this is that you have to stay behind the other 2 gliders in front of you and NOT get to the inside. Glider Nr. 1 has to see you and has to give way to you, as he is the one entering the thermal. If you do the same in a 30+ glider gaggle, there is a high chance you will crash into someone as you have no escape route. One important thing is to stay calculabe for the other gliders.
Went belly up to the glider on which you were essentially flying formation with. Should have done an overshoot maneuver flying below and to the outside of the traffic you were converging upon. Diving under offers more energy for maneuvering and the best visual of the most airspace where you know you have aircraft that you must keep an eye on. Belly up and converging on 2 or 3 planes at similar altitude is not a good plan. Betting your life you're turning tighter than they are. If this type of thing is typical, you all need to be formation qualified.
Your tighter turn actually put you into a lift surge increasing your climb so it should have given you an advantage. Being higher they would have to give way to you. By the corrections you were making it was obvious you were getting wish wash from other gliders indicating that there wasn't a lot of separation. I would have called them out at the briefing the next day and they should have been penalized. Hope you beat them around the course!!
You can still talk about it. Right decision to leave.
As someone who knows nothing about flying. This was very poorly explained. I know nothing what happened. I don't even know what that weird beeping was.
If the taxpayer owned that glider rather than you being financially liable for it, you'd probably have just pulled the eject lever.
I don’t think you could have done much else, the other pilot in that duo should have taken a wider route around the thermal first to give you and the other gliders separation before fully entering the thermal
You should have pulled over and turned on your hazards and placed some cones to warn incoming pilots.
I'm not sure what you "should" have done, but clearly you did the right thing because no one was in trouble. I think if you went for a dive that may have been the only other option. If you were able to reduce speed, then there was a chance you would have struck another glider. It just looked like a bad traffic jam, and the other gliders trying to move in should have waited until you guys had more altitude.
"If you have poo, throw it now"
im bout to start from Microsoft flight sim to IRL but i would 100% dive and abort climb, dont wanna brake a plane that i cannot afford :D
From an ACM point of view, i consider this very dangerous: First, you pulled into the turn and gave away kinetic energy. This can lead to a stall if you have to correct even harder.
Second, you gave away your vision of the enemy fighters. Lose sight lose fight.
So, in such a situation, i will always choose to give away my position to gain maneuvering speed and distance.
The right move would have been a dive to make sure you have all the other planes in sight and queue up behind the last one. IMHO
Looks like flight safety and competitions don't mix that well.
I don’t compete but I’ve bailed out of excellent thermals when there have been 3 or four of us and felt the risk of an accident was too high. That being said I would’ve tightened my turn as you did and then, if possible dived to be at a lower altitude.
If you stall in a glider you are done?
no, why would you think that?
@@yarpos because I don't know much about airplanes etc.
Not sure how you could have handled it any differently, and I'm glad you're okay.
Why is this always beeping?
you just did perfect, it happens all the time, Good job!
Agreed he did well. It happens all the time-this is the problem and it shouldn't happen all the time. Joining pilots should accommodate the established gliders as the joining ships have the most maneuvering room on the outside. Getting away with it doesn't mean it was proper.
@@dinos8557 Right, but as the room is not enought for the firdt person pilot, rolling in a steep turn or very high rate turn is not that worse, I mean avoiding the collision looks ok, Also he saw the incoming glider.Yes the incoming pilot does not have to cut short the path, Like on the road you got assholes! It should not happens.