Do Lithium Batteries Work In Cold Weather? Testing Lithium Vs Lead Acid in Freezing Temps
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2020
- One of the most common questions we get asked about lithium batteries is do they work in the cold? Today, we are going to answer this question and take a scientific look at lithium batteries and cold weather.
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We are Tom & Caitlin Morton and we are the Mortons on the Move. We are co-hosts of 'The RVers' TV Show on the Discovery Channel, PBS, and Fun Roads TV. We are the Creators of the Go North series available on Amazon Prime and UA-cam. We've lived full-time in an RV since 2015.
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I am up here in Canada and when out on the ice, fishing, my lithium runs my fish finder and anything else that needs power. My solution was to wire a small Christmas light bulb with its own switch into my battery case. Packed the case with foam around the battery and presto, problem solved.
An awesome deep dive as only Tom can do it. We installed our lithium battery in an exterior compartment, but the battery heats itself when needed for charging. It’s great to hear that the performance of lithium still far exceeds lead-acid when temperatures drop.
Thanks guys! Does your battery heat all the time or only when needing a charge?
@@MortonsontheMove The heat automatically comes on whenever the temperature drops down to freezing.
@@RVgeeks Interesting - That seems like a waste of energy since, as Tom's video showed, the heat isn't needed for the battery to discharge. I would think it would have been a better design on Xantrex's part to turn the heater on only when there is a charging current available, which can be used to heat the pack initially, and the allow charging current to reach the cells once the temp has risen sufficiently.
PS: Miss you guys on Patreon and your live Q&As!
@@naiiawahVideo even though u can charge and discharge the cells it's better to keep them at 27-35c for longest cycle life. & Keeping them warm increase their watt hr as well & cca if u using them as a starting battery
How about if the battery was drained and then froze, would that damage the battery?
Love the content, helps me understand where I need to improve my RV expectations on future items. Watched your Go North Series, loved it and know it was an experience on the bucket list. I'll be short, you know marketing and detail, but USE all your assets. One I notice at times and have been commented on by friends is your ease of understanding which comes from ALL your videos. Big thumbs up, however Tom...... they want it all, content, interest and well, your candor...... which reflects how sometimes you are so easy on the eyes. A compliment I continuously hear, take advantage of it, marketing is in a thousand different ways ! Offer those advantages, give those stellar looks and intellect neither are NOT a part of you, just a better version that we ALL appreciate ! Look forward to the next video, Thank you !
Thank You. Battle born stayed within their comfort zone. Do the same test below +16F and you will plate the anode and. This is why you do not see Lithium's in cars. Maybe I missed it but there was not temp provided for when damage occurs to a Lithium. Thanks for your video. =Cosmo
People say that lithium ion doesn't work in the cold because if you carry your cellphone in an outside pocket on a Canadian winter day the phone turns off and won't turn on until you warm it back up.
Nice job, Tom, thanks for clearing the charging procedure for lithium. I thought, I'd read/heard they should be warmed when using in cold(er) temperatures. Your info (and Battle Born's study) certainly clarified it.
Y'all Be Safe!
Glad you found it helpful!
We recently upgraded to 6 Battle Born batteries and added a bunch of solar also. We installed the batteries in our climate controlled cargo bay to keep from having any temperature issues. Thanks for all the info!
I used to manage a mobile home park in southern Michigan.
It gets really cold there...
To keep pipes from freezing underneath the units we used a
product called HEAT TAPE.
It’s like an electrical extension cord.
It’s all self contained and weatherproof.
It has a built in thermostat and when plugged
in they produce heat...
The thermostat regulates when they turn on and
off.
I would think that you could either line a compartment
with them to heat it when and as much as necessary or
you could wrap them directly around your batteries to warm
them...
Thanks Tom. This video answered a lot of questions for me. Not that I plan on staying a lot in cold weather, my RV will have an engine and it will go south when needed but it's good to know that it can take some occasional cold weather if set up properly. Keep the good stuff coming.
Glad it was helpful!
Hello all, To read more about this study and get access to the whitepaper check it out on our Blog - mortonsonthemove.com/lithium-batteries-cold-weather/
Outstanding explanation and really well articulated critique!
Great info. In these covid times, as Canadians our Lithium Batteries are spending the winter in the colder than usual temperatures. After contacting Battle Born to see whether they could stay installed in "cold storage" (might be in the -30 to -40 range for short bursts they said we should pull them and find a little warmer spot for them. It appeared it wasn't the battery itself that was the concern but the ABS plastic case. Definitely a nuisance as back in the old lead acid days we just hooked a battery tender to the bank and let them chill over the winter.
Im glad i watched this before getting lithium batteries. I live where it gets below -20 on a regular basis and it would have been a waist of money to get lithium for my solar set up, based on the evidence u showed. So thank you.
Lithium Batteries produce internal heat when charging or discharging. Since being in a situation I couldn’t get them warm enough to charge for a couple of days I have cycled them from charge to discharge, not letting sit at 100%. Not a perfect answer, but it can extend your temperature range by several degrees.
I just got 2 LifePo4 12v 200ah batteries this past summer.
Grand Canyon South Rim. Gets very cold. Woke up tonight despite having Buddy Heater in my room. Lifepo4 batteries are down again. This just started happening since we've dropped to 16f or so the past few days. Been charging them up with generator, but they are still not performing like the warmer summer days. Just an honest observation.
I ordered a new charge controller yesterday just to eliminate other potential issues. But had them charged with battery charger to 12.1 using generator and only had the Inverter connected when I went to sleep.
Woke up to use bathroom, and Inverter shut off and at 10.7? I have lived off grid 6 yrs now. Before lifepo4, I used 6 x 6v golf cart batteries. Maybe the older pure Sine wave Inverter is the culprit? Idk
Thanks Tom! As a Canadian I’m glad you reaffirmed my decision to go with lithium. So far they’ve really worked for me , especially since I switched out my solar charge controller.
Excellent!
How about precautions for over-heat or high-heat??? I live in and travel to many places where ambient temperatures can reach 125*F
Excellent analysis and explanation. Question: Do you recommend any particular person or shop that could install a similar or same solar system you have in my rig? Thanks...JC
Great video Tom. The white paper by Battle Born is well written. I too would like the conversation moved from amp hours to watt hours. Watts are a more meaningful measure when understanding tge power to your devices. The current lead acid amp hour rating is for a use pattern on our RV that does not make sense. With a residential refrigerator and other appliances we draw more power than the 20 hour rating and as such get less advertised watts.
In a recent post by Battle Born related to the white paper they stated that the next generation of their battery will include heating to keep the battery just above freezing. They stated the hearing element would run off the charger power/connected or off the battery/not charger. The next gen battery might change my plans and I might use tge vented battery space under tge steps if tge battery has heating capability.
Great explanation! Subscribed
Thank you and welcome!
Nice job!
Thank you very much! Amazing video?
Did you say the lead acid also need warmth? My car didn't start today after 3 short runs(10min)
I thought this was the strength of this specific battery, to charge even in short runs. Lately has been -15 Celsius
Thanks for any and every insight.
Great video Tom. In the experiment there is one thing I don't understand. I thought you said that they put the batteries in a freezer and then charge them to full capacity. I thought the lithium batteries wouldn't take a charge at freezing temperatures???
My 8 lithium cells are stored in the fifth wheel cabin where a fireplace option would have been installed. If I'm warm the lithium cells are warm. :-)
Great info! btw, I hear using diatium power cells have no problems at all on cold weather
I think your right, they can work in the vacuum of space too!
Excellent video!
Thank you!
Great presentation on lithium batteries versious lead acid batteries.
Great video!
Has Lithium become a viable option for starter batteries for big diesels?
Are you still using these Merlin Solar panels and how are they? I have not seen any update on them and we are considering getting these as well. Do you recommend them?
Even 30A is a pretty high power draw for boondocking. It would have been helpful if Battleborn had recorded data at lower amperage. Also high amperage will always give lithium an advantage over lead acid.
This seems to be the issue with electric cars. They do not seem to charge when cold. I live in a place where -40f is a regular occurring issue. The 4 lithium I have has to be brought into my living space and left by the heater overnight before charging. The lead acid. Not agm. But regular lead acid. Can be charged by just the heat produced by the charger. 110v to 12v. It is June 19th. The current temperature is 34°f. The snow is melted. I am seeking a cold weather performance I currently can not have from lithium.
Hello, loved the battery info. I will upgrade soon. On your RV, in the background, there looks to be a window covering? I would describe it as squares and it looks like two rows. Can be seen at 6:21 What is the purpose of those squares? Thanks, David
Looks like it could be a solar charging system...
Old information, but well presented.
Good job professor! I think I understood it!
Thanks!
I was trying to follow the paper . It seems it doesn't exist anywhere but on the site of the battery production company. No title page , no journal info, publishing info and so on.
If I'm mistaken please give us a direct link to this article in the journal
Wakespeed has completed live testing of its integration with the REC Active BMS. The cooperative effort between Wakespeed and Slovenian BMS manufacturer REC enables Wakespeed's WS500 alternator to share connectivity with the REC BMS via a CANbus interface. Through this CANbus connection, the BMS can actively control alternator-based charging to ensure safe and optimal charging of LiFeP04 battery banks.
This marks the third case of successful integration between the Wakespeed WS500 and factory BMS systems - the other proofed integrations are with Lithionics Batteries' Never-Die BMS and MG Energy's MG Master BMS.
It will gradually heat frozen batteries as well.
Great information! Awesome that it heats batteries too!
I can't speak to the chemistry of LiFePo batteries, which is what Battleborne are, but I can speak to LiIon batteries like the Tesla battery you started with, and you can absolutely destroy a LiIon battery by charging it at high current and low temperatures. This is a well know limitation with LiIon chemistry, which is, while not explicitly stated in English, is spelled out in the data sheet for the Panasonic 18650B cells that are used in a Tesla pack. Lumping all lithium batteries together, and then stating they're fine for cold weather without any caveats is perhaps a misunderstanding on your part, but it's important to know that you absolutely should not charge a lithium ion chemistry battery below the charging temperature indicated on the product data sheet, which indicates 10C for the Tesla batteries. You can discharge them as low as -20C safely.
The answer on this stack exchange article gets into the weeds if you're interested in learning a bit more: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/263036/why-charging-li-ion-batteries-in-cold-temperatures-would-harm-them
With that out of the way, I love your content. Your series with the Tesla and Solar stuff inspired me to do my own, and I've got a Tesla battery, with heating and cooling, the Victron inverter, Victron solar charge controllers, 800w of solar power and a lot of other nice add ons for my 5th wheel that make it possible for me to work on the road. I've been doing my own video series covering that build and my own experiences which I'll edit and cut together sometime this winter once I actually hit the road.
What temperature would you suggest using the battery cooler for charging and discharge?
That is weird . I know for my self that fully charged lipo of the quadrocopter , kept at slightly freezing temp couldn't provide proper amperage even to lift the quad off the ground. After warming it up in the inner pocket under clothing it started working fine. Perhaps that was because lipo is different from lifepo
Should we insulate batteries?
Hi Tom, nice explanation! Where can I find the (rubber) heat blanket? I looked and can't find it, in our case to 'heat' the LPG gas bottles in our Lance 825. We are European but kept our whole system setup for the US 110v after importing the Lance. It's still doing nothing; in 2 weeks our F250 will arive in Europe and will be one of the first 2 in Europe! Pickups ans especially 250 / 2500 series are very rare here. If you see an F150 once a week it's a lot. Thanks again, Richard
Aren’t the roads just a bit more narrow over there?
Yayyy!! Thank you times infinity for this info!!!
You are so welcome!
Hugs from Oklahoma
Good video Tom. I see that Newmar puts lithium batteries on some of their coaches now. (Wonder if the RVgeeks had anything to do with that?)
Yea it's neat to see them doing that. Newmar is pretty forward thinking and while John and Peter haven't worked with them I bet they were and influence!
My 3rd comment: What does colder temperatures do to the expected over-all life time of these batteries, Lithium or Lead acid?
I would rather have a battery that would be proven to last multiple years, no matter how it performs as long as it works for what I need it for, verses a battery that I will need to replace every 3 to 6 months at a MUCH higher price.
Wow! I just wanted to know how well they performed. I really didn't plan on designing and building my own batteries. For me, TMI.
Great presentation. Well done and clear. Just one clarifying question. You constantly refer to "Lithium Ion" or "Lithium Iron". I struggle to hear exactly what you are saying. I am an Australian! But I believe you are talking about Lithium Iron Phosphate throughout this video. There is no Lithium Iron.
I guess if you are not living off retirement income, paying double for Battle Born is not as much of an issue (1200AH). When I was working I might have paid more.
I understand Puking (Peukert) effect, but I am more concerned with the physical damage thing.
You mentioned a few different heating choices, but I am trying to figure how much wattage in an insulated box to prevent damage. I don't plan to go back to Maine where I have seen -54F on a thermometer, but many places get into the teens for a couple nights.
I need to be ready with solar. I have thought about a Raspberry Pi and temp sensors. I thought, use solar to power heat and switch to charging when the batteries are safely warm. But running a RPi and incandescent bulbs or heat pads will use electricity. I see no need to waste it when not necessary. My "thermostatically controlled device" kicks on at 38F and off at 50F.
I remember putting a pan of hot coals under a truck engine to get it to start (-40). I also remember a car stalling when the clutch pedal was released in neutral because the transmission grease was so thick (-40).
I think Battleborn batteries use lifepo4 cells in them. You mentioned several times that they use Lithium ion cells which I hope you didn’t really mean that. In your graphs they clearly show LFP which is lifepo4. I would never confuse the two.
My 2nd comment: Why stop at 17 degrees and not lower? We live in 0 and below temperatures. How would a lithium battery hold up in these temperatures?
Very interesting video, and informative. However, Ah is NOT a measure of power. Lots of confusion here. Power is measured in Watts, or Volt-Ampersand. Amp-hours are a measure of battery capacity, which is similar to energy capacity. The latter is measured in Wh, as correctly described in the video.
Not quite. Amp hours is a measure of battery capacity but had no relation to energy. Change the voltage of the bank and keep amp hours the same, what happens to energy? Amp hours is a simple engineering measurement to figure how long a battery would run at load, but gives no real energy info.
@@MortonsontheMove finally someone that understands something of units! my ears were bleeding listening to the presentation in this video.
Sorry for being honest, I like and use Lithium batteries as well. I will use them as long as they are strictly used in warmer temperatures. Above 40 degrees and not lower.
while this is another positive for LiPo batteries I wonder how "fair" the test was.. a 100 ah AGM is not much more than a starting battery vs a 6 volt GC battery.. Plus LA batteries need a "break in period" of several charge, discharge, cycle to get ot max cap.. I know when installing some new trojan t-105 6 volt GC batteries they had crap for capacity for a while. I was reading on some of the elec golf cart forums you need to break them in.. by running the cart to a voltage of 80% then charge then run down again to 80% and charge.. this was needed to be done some 4-5 times to get a good capacity.
I would love to see this same test done with a good 6 volt GC battery that had been cycled 4-6 times..
BUT in the end a lithium battery will outperform LA all day long at a higher price initially
Hi there. I have renogy 100 amp lithium battery. If it’s cool , like -10 degrees Celsius , I know I can’t charge it, BUT can I use it to get my wabasto heater to warm up the RV safely?????
Then my camper would be warmed up and I could then charge it ,,, right????
Thanks
Did you replace the Tesla battery pack in your RV with Battle Born ones? If so, could you share why?
Thanks for the question! Yes, we are now using Battle Born Batteries. We share why in this article: mortonsonthemove.com/ultimate-off-grid-rv-solar-power-system-build/
i thought u said cold weather my old citation has polar pck and is rated to-30 what ur lithium batteries do then
Bro we have -32c right now in norway. I will personally say, when we talk -10c yeah.. no problem. But when u come out to -32c and u try to start and what happens is your car just click and opens its fuel cap.. u know its cold.
Is it possible to use your Volt car batteries as a power source or once a car battery is charged there is no way extract the energy from the Volt car? Let's say you drive your Volt into town to grab some electricity from a parking lot charger while in the store shopping. During winter months this might be useful when the solar panels are not charging the Lithium Ion RV batteries enough and could refill your Battleborn RV solar batteries with energy from the Volt batteries
We havent, but some people will install an inverter off the DC-DC converter and just leave the car on. Somone commented on our blog about doing this, running a 2000 watt inverter they use for camping and power outages to run a fridge, said it ran for 26 hours! I think it would be awesome if we could turn electric cars into more than just transportation and think of them as Batteries too!
Battle born wrote a white paper on this test it was well done and lithium wins hands down every battle needs to be kept warm.
That is what I cover in this video.
Just a question. I no your to busy for any solor installs , but do u no any solor installers loo k ING for a project?.? I have a 2003 ambulance , thank u
We recommend you check out the following two companies:
Off The Grid Camper: www.offthegridcamper.com
AM Solar: amsolar.com
So a 1400watt motor in a mobility scooter would be better suited in lithium battery?
So you're saying they did not test the battery in cold weather you know something below 0 F.
In my experience, no, lithium cannot handle the cold, as soon as it got below 0F here my 500A battery would barely spin over my 500cc 4 wheeler while the lead acid battery that I removed could start that bike down to -30F without concern.. Looked at specs, -4F was coldest a NOCO battery could be used, and 14F was coldest it would accept a charge.. Pulling it back out, and putting the lead-acid back in...
2-200A lead acid to 2-200a lithium was unfair if 4A Lithium Equates to Roughly 13A in Lead acid. so I would hope the lithium could put out more,, now if it were 200A comparable then something to speak of...
what happend to lithium battery's when they freeze I read that there toast when this happens even once
So annoyed i went with AGM now that you can buy a decent lifepo4 DIY block for same or cheaper price... Lead acid is just shit in every aspect now
Good job tom, would like you to get a new cap
Did you can the tesla battery?
Yes, we now use Battle Born Batteries. You can learn more about our solar upgrade in this video: ua-cam.com/video/TQIKAJ0MM_k/v-deo.html
I have a ktm 450 with lithium. And ktm 350 with lead acid. At 35 degrees my lithium won't start my bike. My 350 fires up instantly
Will it turn over at all? Iv got a new video coming shortly and the one place lithium does not belong yet is in starting batteries.
@@MortonsontheMove ir turns the motor slowly. Then I wait 30 seconds. Try again and the battery does have more power bur is quickly depleted to zero
what happens to the overall battery health tho.
hey could you ask BB to sell new good quality but very cheap cells in bulk for home build and 48 volt batters under 1000 bucks with people like you testing we know we can trust BB a lot of people are rolling the dice and buying from over seas if some are very good some a rip off it would be worth a higher cost to buy from BB seems like it would be good for BB and customer please tell BB
Killin me man, you hold up lithium iron phosphate battery (lifepo4) and talk about lithium ion (LiCoO2) completely different chemistries. Li-ion is used in phones and laptops.
Rest of the video is great and thanks for making it!
They are all li ion, any type thqt used lithium transport is the same concept. Your thinking of the specific chemistries.
@@MortonsontheMove so you created your own confusing naming convention? If I can google the difference between the two chemistries, crossing their names means you are incorrect. One is more long lived, and doesn’t explode when over charged. One has more charge cycles, the other has higher energy density. This is literally the only place on the internet that I’ve seen, where somebody knows what they are talking about, but they confuse the terms. If you can’t keep it straight how about the people watching your video? I’m pretty sure the scientists that created two separate names for two separate chemistries would not be impressed with you calling them the same thing.
Also one is non toxic, the other is expensive to recycle safely. Not the same.
Lithium batteries do not work below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, they have to be heated. Over 90 degrees they have to be cooled.
15 degrees how about 0 degrees and lower
I wonder if Tesla uses this preheating technique in there vehicles?
tesla uses a built in heating and cooling system for the batteries.. very high tech.
Yup they do, its a liquid heated and cooled circuit that manages battery temp and will warm the pack before charging. Uses the charging energy to prewarm ..
You sound like a electrical engineer.
Lol, I am a nerd. And yes an electrical engineer.
I have 2 sons, one is a mechanical engineer and the other one is a electrical engineer. So for me it’s kinda easy to spot an engineer! Gotta love the engineers. Nothing wrong with being a nerd either, without you guys where would we be??
Correction for this video. The paper was NOT testing Lithium Ion batteries, but they were testing Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries.
Lithium Ion batteries have less of a efficient operating temperature, both hot and cold. This is important to note whenever you are getting batteries, or solar battery banks(or what the industry likes to call "generators") If you want to have a better performance in cold weather, go with the LiFePO4 batteries. These batteries also have a longer charge use case. You can charge and discharge these batteries a lot more than Lithium Ion, without the loss in amount of charge %. These batteries are also more ethical since LiFePO4 batteries do not use cobalt. If you don't know, you should research where your cobalt comes from.
However, if you are going for a drone, a electric unicycle, or electric skateboard, and you aren't in extreme temperatures. Lithium Ion is your best bet, because LiFePO4 batteries are a LOT heavier than Lithium Ion.
I guess that means no👎
Colder temperatures = less heat loss = more efficient batteries.
I would subscribe to your Chanel but with 1 exception. You are biased. Your study only comes from Lithium manufactures. Where is any studies from lead acid battery manufactures?
Lithium batteries will not head your homes nor provide lasting power without a serious battery bank. Put that all to the side, how are lithium batteries disposed and what is the environmental impact?
It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you're wearing "winter-ish" clothes and the leaves and grass in the background are super green, looking like it's almost spring or summer outside. Info was good however, especially the link. Do you have information on the heating system you used for your lithium batteries? Thanks.
So, with what I asked you in all 3 of my questions. What are your answers, your honest answers? I'm betting you will not respond to a single 1 of my questions, proving my point exactly, you are biased and your videos are not worth subscribing to.