ARE THE CARCHARODONS THE LEGACY OF THE LOST PRIMARCHS?
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2021
- Hi all Rho here!
Today we ask the question, are the Carcharodons Astra Chapter, the legacy of the Lost Primarchs?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as we will be discussing events from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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"It is extremely unlikely that any marine could escape the judgment of the Emperor of Mankind"
The remnants of the thunder legion: the chance of us escaping is never zero
I was thinking the same...
The traitor legions have done fairly well. Thus far anyway.
To be fair its unconfirmed
Said the degrading Empire of the Corpse that is losing to the very marines that escaped judgement.
@@spider-spectre Primaris have something to say about this.
If you read some of the books and lore its highly hinted that are indeed both a mix of raven guard and night lords. That's why they were formed just after the hours heresy and have that era of armour etc.
Yeah I'd heard that too, but I like to leave some wiggle room for retcon. Would be a really good way shake up the setting. Just imagine a found Primark and the space sharks can take their place just as they are needed most.
(Plus I just like the idea of a legion never giving up their search for their Primark and then finding him)
Don’t forget the potential of world eaters
I love the idea of a Chimeric chapter of the raven guard and night lords
@@tyler1tanner I agree, chimeric chapters isn’t that crazy and it could create some COOL space marines lol
Agreed, it's clear they are Raven Guard.
I’m fairly certain it is heavily implied that Cawl made chapters of whatever he wanted, including so called “Sons of the Phoenix” [who wear purple and gold?] supposed Dorn geneseed? My ass. He’s definitely made something more across the board. Even indicating to guilliman that there is merit in using traitor and lost geneseed because there have since been traitors of guilliman’s line too.
Fulgrim is the Palatine Phoenix so "Sons of the Phoenix" wearing purple and gold are probably just Emperors Children right?
@@hikou725 correct believed to be using fulgrim’s line
Guilliman is a traitor
Did you know as I made this reply a Blood Raven came and stole... I mean claimed...no wait was gifted terminater armour
There's also The Covenant of Fire, a Salamanders succesor that looks and behaves extremely similarly to the Word Bearers.
Who ever they've descended from doesn't matter, all I know is that this chapter is utterly fire.
Also a melee battle between the flesh tearers, executioners, charcaradons, space wolves and khorne berserkers is literally my dream to watch.
throw in the minotaur bois for extra pizazz
@@Among0Shadows khorne Dies from Heart attack due to overjizzed from the spectacular display Savagery
That would just be utterly fucking bonkers, the after math would just look like a fucking wood chipper went through a mosh pit.
I actually message Robbie about this on Tumblr years ago, he used to be very active on Tumblr way back. Not sure if he still is. His answer was that this was the one topic about the Carcharodon origins that he would be clear on and that no, they have nothing to do with the lost Primarchs.
Do you have any proof of this or are we just supposed to believe you?
@@richardwitt2334 I second this.
Because all I have to do is say that I messaged Robbie about it on LinkedIn and he said they were actually the first Marine chapter created by the Emperor before even the Thunder Warriors. And me saying that is just as correct and authoritative as your comment.
Does your dad work at Nintendo?
My friends dads wife actually works at Microsoft, and she said you should all shut up 🤗
Proof: trust me bro
In the Dark Imperium series it says cawl has access to gene seed from all 20 primarchs... 20. Guilliman tells him to only use loyalist gene seed when making the primaris; but you never know with those sneaky tech priests
I dinnae think Cawl would outright defy Gulliman. The cost would be greater than any reward.
He would need some kind of deniablity.
@@darthlazurus4382 Cawl made himself an AI and regularly demands to be made Fabricator General by Guilliman as well and making Space Wolves successor chapters a thing the Space Wolves have banned under threat of violence. I don't think Cawl cares At All about rules
@@MrApocalyptic165
I'm not saying he wouldn't try and put his own plans first, just that he would need some defense before he does it.
@@darthlazurus4382 I feel like he has an admirable amount of defense seeing as no one knows where he is rn also I think his flag ship is an Ark Mechanicus which are canonically supposed to STC machines and if he some how unlocks it's full potential he is one of the most powerful players in the milky way
@@darthlazurus4382 not to be rude or anything if that's how I came off I just love Cawl and truly believe if anyone is going to do it he's most likely to look at the whole of the imperium and say "try me"
I personally want to see Guilliman meet the Carcharodons and Black Dragons as part of some side mission he sends them on. I just need some outcast-ish Astartes action doing some dark and dirty shit for the Imperium.
The Black Dragons would line up to give their uncle a big, friendly hug, just like their Papa would've.
Dirty deeds and they're done dirt cheap... dirty deeds and they're done dirt cheap.
I want to see a cival war where rawbooty tries to destroy the inquisition, you know the space sharks and black dragons will be helping with that shit.
@@valentineX1X Warp to the fuck yes! Then have the Mechanicus take sides, with some supporting Guilliman as the only conscience loyal son of the Omnissiah and some supporting the Inquisition because no one opposes the God-Emperor's Holy Inquisition!
Personally, they are the remains of the exiled Terran Raven Guard however during the Great Scouring they took in renegade World Eaters, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion, which would explain in their novels they fought with the stealth of the Raven Guard, the savage ferocity of the World Eaters and have the capacity for stealth operations which create terror, just like the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion.
Also as a side note, my pet theory about Tyberos the Red Wake is that he is another Primaris prototype, similar to Alpha Primus, except engineered for size, strength & speed.
Interesting, I thought that it was more likely they were solely descendants of the exiled Night Lords dismissed by Sevatar rather than Ravenguard for instance,, but they have all the traits of those legions as well. One to ponder! 🤔
'Renegade' Alpha legionaires. Welcomed by already infiltrated Alpha legionaires, no doubt.
But in seriousness I really like that take on it.
Oooh I like your view.
yeah i think that too, i think the ravenguard guy and/or sevatar founded it
I like your view on the Carchardons. My own view is very similar, although I think it was the remnants of the failed Raptors project, the so-called "Smooths" from the Corax novel that were banished after Corax had to put down the more mutated Raptors like Hef.
They were gathered up towards the end of the Heresy, and along with loyalist Night Lords were sent into the Outer Void to basically die. However, for a variety of reasons, they split at some point very early in their formation, forming the Ashen Claws, and the Carchardons, the Claws becoming renegades and the Carchardons keeping to their vows of service. It would explain why the Carchadons still have a relationship with the Mechanicum whereas the Claws do not, and why Carchardon geneseed is also compatible with the Ashen Claws chapters, because it's from the same source. This is detailed in the books, Red Tithe and The Outer Void the relationship between the two Chapters.
This would also explain their fighting doctrines based on both Night Lords and Raven Guard, as well as their own doctrines developed over millenia, and over almost 10,000 years their geneseed has mutated. There is some indication that geneseed can mutate in specific ways when encouraged by the Chapter Apothecaries, the Black Dragons are an example of this. So it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that the Carchardon Apothecaries have done something similar.
I also suspect other loyalists from Traitor Legions were sent into the Outer Void as new Chapters at the end of the Heresy when Guilliaman split the Legions into chapters. However, over time, most of those Chapters were wiped out and there are only a very few surviving Chapters like the Carchardons, perhaps the only surviving exiled Chapter.
My theory is that the Carcharodons are technically descended from the Raven Guard, specifically they are the descendants of the survivors of the Raptor Project. Despite becoming heavily mutated due to the contamination of their modified gene-seed they remained loyal to the Emperor and their primarch, Corvus Corax. Due to their loyalty and the need for warriors during the Heresy, Corax gave them armour modified for their mutated forms and organized them into an organization which was used to strike from the shadows and won many covert battles against the Traitors. Many of them survived the battles of the Horus Hersey and then they vanish from Imperial history. I believe they were organized into a chapter and given a name as far from bird imagery as possible (a fish), given ships and old/obsolete armour and sent out into the darkness to destroy aliens. They were not intended to survive, but they did, and they prospered. As they created new initiates from their serf crews and any viable humans they found out in the black, their mutations began to stabilize into their current gene-seed flaws. They either keep the secret of their true history, or possibly they have forgotten their shame.
I'd say the descendants of Navar Hef. If you wrote him correctly, you could make him as tragic as Dante.
A.G.
Idk man. The shark boys aren't my idea of covert unless you take the "there are no witnesses left" approach to stealth.
They act like stoic world eaters.
This is the popular belief, though they could end up being their own thing kind of like the black dragons chapter.
As per the horus heresy black books they were sent out into the void before the horus heresy started , its clear in lore, read the books :)
@@charlesschwass3554 The Raven Guard Geneseed did have a flaw similar to that of The Red Thirst or the Black Rage of the Blood Angels. They'd go into these uncontrollable states where they just wanted to kill everything that breathed, even their own brothers. The only way to get back is to either wait it out or to go into battle and try to fight it out of your body, even then it might not cease. This might indicate that they might indeed still be a Raven Guard successor but with maybe a more firm grasp on their flaw? Being able to direct it and having a bit more control over it in battle? Idk it's interesting
They are loyalist Night Lords taken under the wing of The Raven Guard. I'll even go so far as calling Svetar there first Chapter Master.
I mean that sounds like a cool head cannon but they a raven guard according to the novels
@@jakefloden6512 the thing about them being Sons of Corax is that they don't fight like them with hit and run.. They fight like Sons of Curze with sheer terror and brutality.
@@hydradominatus3641 and there are 9th descendants who are pure mechanised chapters.
@@hydradominatus3641 In the newest book they do fight using stealth and ambush tactics. Like Great Whites coming from the deep to snatch up their prey
@@RogueBlood343 yeah but it isn't there modus operandi. It's more like just drop down and tear as much enemies up as possible and make the gore flow like a damn horror apocalypse.
The book Outer Dark has an exchange which removes pretty much all ambiguity over who their Primarch is.
First some context- this exchange has the Carcharodon’s Reaper Prime Bail Sharr (BS) communicating ship-to-ship with an unnamed Ashen Claws Commander (ACC). The Ashen Claws are undoubtedly Raven Guard successors in the lore.
ACC: If you were wise you’d turn back now.
BS: If I turned back now I would not be a son of the Forgotten One.
ACC: You dishonour his name. We have not forgotten him.
BS: And yet you no longer serve him. We do.
If they deliberately forgot him then this conversation wouldn’t make much sense. The Ashen Claws Commander clearly knows who “the Forgotten One” refers to and Bail Sharr clearly knows who the Ashen Claw is talking about.
It’s there to be a cool bit of ambiguity added to the chapter, even though it’s undercut by this conversation and the pure gene seed they offer to the Ashen Claws later in exchange for help. They’re Sons of Corax- they know it, the Ashen Claws know it and even the Mechanicus knows it.
I still like the idea of one of the primarchs being a blank, a blank of such magnitude that it could block the astromonicon if too close to terra. As such, was sent out into the void to combat a coming hunger felt but not know. The forgotten primarch.
This is a cool idea and would actually make sense. I half remember something about one of the lost Primarchs possibly being kidnapped by xenos. It would make total sense if the Silent King Kidnapped a blank Primarch as a weapon to use on the Eldar.
@@PeteofHartainia didn't trazen brag about it to fabious when they met ? ( after seeing the clone of fulgrim. stating he already have one but another is always cool. )
It is hinted in "The Long Night" that First Captain Sevatar of the Night Lords founded the Carcharodons.
"He sits alone in the blackened stillness, listening to the slow rhythm of his breathing. A sense of serenity cloaks him, and a feeling of cold, cold focus that has eluded him for decades. When he dreams now it is not of the dead, but of the endless night between worlds. The deepest void, where a thousand threats drift, away from the light of loyal suns. The domains of aliens and monsters forced into exile by the Great Crusade, still crying out to be extinguished once and for all. The true threats to mankind. ‘Jago,’ the girl’s voice comes to him again at last. ‘Are you still alive?’ And in the darkness of his cell, Sevatar smiles."
Sevatar died im sure its said somewhere that the lion executed him when he was captured ( maybe same story im not sure) I could be wrong my memory is a bit out of sorts.
I can see the where you are coming from, but as a Night Lord's fanboy I must refute this. First, Sevetar was the first to claim "Death to the false emperor!". Second, while I don't think Sevetar "cared" about his brothers in the traditional sense, he did value his brotherhood to his Legion. Third, Sevetar is quoted to claim that he and his brothers are murderers first, lost and always- embracing the nature of his Legion. This is vastly different to how the Carcharodons operate and their chapters culture. It's definitely a badass theory though!
First, last and always*
That’s nothing even vaguely resembling a hint.
Sure you’re not putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5...?
@@johndalziel4226 Uzaz thinks he is alive.
I think they are both Raven guards and night lords having geneseed fuse together
I'm not so sure, because logically both where specialist in stealth, and far as I can tell they have no real connection to either. It's been my personal theory for some time that the Sharks belonged to the 2nd and the soul drinkers the 11th.
@@Scott90314 actually I do believe the soul drinkers maybe from one of the lost legions or their from the ahpla legion don't know for sure???🤔🤔🤔
@@vontheunknown7982 I almost thought they could be sons of the twins for some time, but the chances that the soul spear would be the pale spear in my mind is slim to none. It would be like the emperor's children having the galdius incandor and no ultramarine would sit idly by why the one who felled their primarch possessed their wargear. I think they really don't fit the other legion profiles in any meaningful ways.
@@Scott90314 true
@@Scott90314 carcharodons are anything but stealthy they maybe silent will carving sht up they don't sneak around
I thought they were implied to be either loyalist Night Lords, a branch off of the Raven Guard, or a mix of the two.
Yes
Also in one of their latest books it also implied world eaters
Dude, there is a Canon short story between Malcador and Dorn where they discuss the fact the Legions of the Lost primarchs were in fact spared, so the wolves did not cull them.
Really?? That's awesome, do you remember the book?
@@superthrowdown1 The Short story is called the chamber at the end of memory, it takes place as Dorn is preparing for the siege of Terra
There was speculation that Gulliman absorbed them into the Ultramarines. That is why the legion was so large. Also discussions took place in the vaults of terra books.
@@WanderingCelts It's outright said in the story that they were inducted into the Utramarines and Imperial Fists since Dorn and Guilleman are the ones that argued for sparing the Marines.
@@WanderingCelts Both the Fists and Ultras numbers swelled at that time, likely each took one of the lost legions into their numbers
I always felt like the Carcharodons are what happens when you mix World Eater geneseed with Raven Guard or Nightlord geneseed.
Or even sicker imagine that they are the result of blood angel and world eater geneseed. Imagine the pure melee awesomnes that whould be.
My favourite thing about the Sharks is that they actually SHUT THE FUCK UP when fighting in combat.
@@uranus9954 Black Dragons?
@@clockwork7daemon Arent they like salamander successors
I thought they were the Raven Guard which Corax expelled when taking command of the legion. This is strongly hinted in Horus Heresy 3 Extermination
Plus the short story "The Chamber at The End of Memory" from Scions of the Emperor states the 2 lost legions were championed by Roboute Guilliman and Rogal Dorn which strongly hints the 2 legions were absorbed into The Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.
My favourite theory is that Sigismund was originally in one of the 2 lost legions since Rogal Dorn tells him "you were never my son" (can't remember which story this is in) and Sigismund and the Black Templars are so unlike the other Fist descendant chapters in their temperament and battle style.
Also there is the hints in the Soul Drinkers series when we find out that the Soul Drinkers don't share Dorns geneseed. This also supports the Fists absorbing one of the lost Legions and then when the Fists split up into Chapters, the Soul Drinkers were created from those Fists marines who had been absorbed from one of the lost Legions. This explains them being a Fist descendant chapter but not sharing their geneseed.
Those would be the Ashen Claws, but the Shark bois do work with them so… maybe?
I think your mistaken them for the ashen claws
no hes right the ashen claws were also exiled by corax but for there use of slaves not violence
Soul Drinkers come from GW's streak of making loyalist chapters from traitor geneseed. They're Emperor's Children, just like the Silver Skulls are Iron Warriors, Exorcists are Word Bearers and the now canon Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons.
@@leonardomarquesbellini Wait Exorcists are Word Bearers? I thought GW made them Imperial Fists at some point? I mean, it totally makes sense, I just didn't know about it.
Definitely part night lords given the heavy hints in the carcharodon books. There’s also a chance of part world eaters too.
Knowing that the ashen claws claws call the carcharodons traitors. And that it is thought the carcharodons are a possible hybrid gene seed. I love the idea that it could actually be traitors to the ashen claws because they are loyal to the imperium or night lords. The shade lord title held by the chapter master is also from the former legion master of the raven guard. But what if it is actually Sevatar who founded the carcharodons and took in some of the raven guard exiles hence the chimeric gene seed.
The 1st legion fought alongside a lost legion and it was on Rangdan. It’s a bit vague I know but it’s in the old lore.
It's been implied that the lost 2nd legion was brught low during the Rangdan.
The Rangdan were also originating in the halozone where the Carcharodons Astra were tasked to patrol
I've been listening to some of your older material along with the new stuff for the past couple of months. I really enjoy the thought that you put into analyzing the text. It encourages me to think about the 40K universe
Analyzing the text a word bearer enjoyer i see :)
The grievance I have with this channel, is that I wish your videos were longer. So I can enjoy more of the awesomeness of your magnificent content! I need more Wolf Lord Rho!
Space Sharks, who is your Primarch?
Space Shark: "Bird"
I'm still of the mind that 1 or both are/we're in the imperial dungeon during the heresy. Russ never mentions killing any brothers, only being the emperor's executioner (you don't have to kill a brother to be an executioner). Dorn says the primarch's didn't believe they could die until manus fell, he also said to malcador if only we had more to which the regent replies don't even think it. Like it could be a possibility but the answer is no. Nowhere in the lore does it actually say they're dead. We are just assuming because we have no explanation.
For one they were completely removed from imperial records at the highest level and another thing there is the cover of the book The Sigillite that has Malcador sitting on a throne with two skulls with the number two on one of them and the other with an eleven on it.
Dorn has also been partially mind-wiped, as is confirmed by Malcador.
Next.
@@kelman727 And Guilliman also if I recall correctly. I believe he also said after remembering what happened to the lost primarchs that if they were still around then the loyalists would have lost I could be wrong though its been a while .
Personally I think the Wolves were the Executioners and Russ just inherited the name.
When negotiations failed and a show of force wasn’t going to change things the VI Legion was sent in to make an example out of the planet too fool to recognise The Emperor’s holy light.
I NEVER NEW I NEEDED A SPACE SHARK PRIMARCH UNTIL NOW🤩
king shark
N O M N O M
daddy shark do do da do
Bruh...yes.
The lost Primarchs were sent to search other galaxies for the old ones or the Silent king. The Silent king left traces. Also Trazyn has a Primarch in stasis. Seperate references were made in different books. Most recently the infinite and divine.
Yes. The primarch is confirmed to be the perfect clone of fulgrim created by fabius bile, and the giant in armour is likely a custodes
That whould be a fcking awesome theory
@@Coproquim No. I believe it is Leman Russ or one of the lost wolves. In the Infinite and divine Trazyn fights Orikan withan ancient power sword. Quote; He sidled his back against a plinth containing a long frostblade - Fenris-pattern, its beaten edge nicked and scratched. Hard to classify, that sword. The hilt was Crusade-era, decorated with Kraken teeth, but the blade itself dated from much earlier. Trazyns hand plunged into the stasis field, gripping the Fenrisian blade just above the tip. It cut his fingers, but pain was nothing to him.
He ripped it from the howling field and raked the tip across the Diviner’s face. Trazyn wheeled, holding the ancient weapon in two hands, feeling its power thrum through him. An ordinary blade would not have harmed an energy being, but Trazyn did not collect ordinary things.
This sounds like the sword of balenight.
I just want to say thank you. I know very little about this chapter and one of my players has one as a character in the Deathwatch game they roped me into running. This gives me a better perspective.
This is the space marine chapter I run! You are now my hero for this video!
I still say they descended from Sevatar
Nothing says draculas like islanders.
Nothing says Islanders like Sons of Vulkan! Bout time.
@@Monkeyshaman red tithe, night lords note the similarity of tactics
Love those pale faces shark boy nutters!
Salutations from Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧
Man i wish we would get a Carcharodon x Black Dragons Team up Novel. That would be so dope.
Also a Blood Ravens x Relictors Novel, were they are "borrowing" Relics from friends and foes alike😅.
I'd like to see space sharks against BA with death company.
Blood Ravens: Hippity hoppity your Chapter Relics are now my property
i would like to see brother itako tear a battlesuit apart
I like to see the Blood Ravens meet the Blood Angels. Specifically meeting Mephiston as they try and take something from the Blood Angels
I have been thinking this for awhile now. Always spot on Wolf Lord.
Who does everyone think the Minotaurs is descended from? Personally I think Perturabo
Unaltered War Hounds, loyal and brutal. Uncaring of losses, they preferred to use spears/shields until angron.
I mean the chapter named after Greek mythology is probably associated with the primarch steeped in Greek mythology
Iron Warrios and/or World Eaters most likely
In the world eaters audio book it describes them fighting before the nails primarily with spears in "phalanx" type formations. That would be the closest to minotaurs I've heard of, aggression, loyalty and brutality.
There’s a theory that the 13th & 17th legions were as large as they were prior to the Heresy because their ranks were swelled by mind-wiped Astartes from the 2nd & 11th legions.
That's been pretty much confirmed in a short story where Dorne and Malcador are discussing the fate of the Lost Primarchs.
I’d love you to make a lore video on the space sharks
Current fan theory about what the Astropath Wars were. Is after the EoM was in throned, no one in the Imperium knew what to do about creating new Astropaths. Since before Battle of Terra the EoM would create them as chosen Pyskers were brought before him to be turned into Astropath. With many believing no new Astropath could now be created, the remaining ones were ordered back to Terra to be preserved for Imperium use only. Systems and groups in the EoM refused to give up their only means of FTL communication (as much as Astropathic communication can be considered traditional communication) and there for being forever cut off from rest of the galaxy. For commerce or being able to call for help against attack. The EoM must have communicated to someone in the Astrotelepathica that new Astropathic can be created if they just bring the chosen Pyskers before the Throne as before.
My understanding is that the Lost and the Purged are there for those that wish to homebrew a Primarch and Legion. Which means if GW were to ever put out lore for them it would kinda break that.
You are exactly right, them existing is the only information that should be put out. Their mystery is an essential part of the primarch lore.
Bump
In a short story it is shown that many of the legionares of the traitor primarchs were spared after primarchs like Dorn and Guilleman spoke in their defense. Apparently, it was more of an issue with the primarchs themselves than with their entire legions. Presumably, some of these marines were Memory wiped and incorporated into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists.
The story also reveals that certain details regarding the lost primarchs were erased from the memories of the other primarchs. In the short story, Dorn flips out on Malcador at one point because he's at the rooms on Terra that used to belong to the lost priamarchs when he realizes that he can't remember details about them. He's like "Wtf Malcador the Emperor made us with PERFECT memory so why can't I remember anything". Apparently, the semi-memory erasure was actually Dorn's idea. Maybe it made it easier to incorporate the former lost legions into existing legions?
Anyway, I guess the point is that the lost legions can't have had special characteristics that were THAT crazy because otherwise they wouldn't have been incorporated into other legions without standing out if they had.
Well, most of the legions drew their recruits form Terra untill their primarch were found. Most of these Legionaries were probably not dissimilar to others like the scars, the iron warriors/iron hands, dark angels, luna wolves or many others.
Finally I would imagine that most of their geneseeds were probably phased out as the loss mounted during the crusade.
There is the possibility anyway that Cawl for example had samples on which he could probably tap if required.
Fulgrim remembers one of his fallen brothers, probably the II Legion founder, painting it as very quiet unstriking and without much of a sense of humor.
Fan theory, nothing more.
And ADB came out and said so.
These sharks are becoming prominent within the story line and I’m liking it!
By far the best video so far.
The Forgotten One is almost certainly Arkus Fal who commanded the Raven Guard before Corvus Corax was found. He used the title Shade Lord that Tyberos also uses and was basically sent on an endless penitent crusade along with the rest of the Terran born officers for being slavers. They likely evolved into the Carcharodons over millennia in isolation and from their apothecaries having to use gene-seed recovered from casualties and enemies alike to replenish their numbers resulting in a chimeric gene-seed that provides a mix of attributes that are unique to see together but typical of other legions. I think the metaphor, if there is one, is that the Raven Guard fly down from the moral high ground while the Space Sharks lurk in the depths of savagery beyond reason but both beasts are the Emperor's loyal pets.
What about the Soul Drinkers and the Mortifactors? The lost legion survivors were thought to be incorporated into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists. The Soul Drinkers were confirmed not have Dorn's Gene seed and the Mortifactors don't really act like the Ultramarines they are supposedly descended from.
adding more chum to the bloody muddy waters of 40k lore is always a good thing
I have asked this question on other channels. It makes a lot of sense from the lore. The Space Sharks are my fav Chapter.
there are survivors from the lost legions they were simply observed into the ultramarines and other loyalist legions. by m42 would be pretty much no way to find that gene seed, assuming it wasn't replaced when they joined up with their new legions anyway.
Replacement would be hard, they probably just never harvested it from those marines so they ended up dying off with the centuries.
*Cough Soul Drinkers Cough*
@@Scott90314 Silver Skulls, Blood Ravens, Minotaurs, etc,etc..
@@vortex_1336 well, those come from traitor geneseed (blood ravens not so sure), not lost geneseed
@@latayantheazran Still similar though. Why bother replacing geneseed? Seems like a huge waste if resources for an Empire that just got devastated in a civil war.
Chapter master Tiberus of the red wake wears dreadnought plate as armor so it’s possible that he is primarch sized at least.
I was just thinking about this theory, and here is a video uploaded by the Wolf Lord.
Aren’t they confirmed Raven Guard successors, specifically from the terror troops side that was more into Horus than Corax?
Edit: Teach me to comment before the end of the video
yes
a demon told a night lord chaos sorcerer that the carcaradons were their lost brothers soo....
Yes. i have all tehir books. Theres a renegade chapter of Raven Guard they have 'diplomatic' relations with and there is tension about the ownership of Hunger and Slake as being a Relic item that was taken from this Renegade Chapter in some kind of agreement and used by Tiberius. Plus in the great fight scenes between the Charcharadons and the Night Lords they were noted to have similar if not better levels of Dark Light vision than the night Lords.
On a side note i wonder whether Hunger and Slake are actually Coraxes original weapons of choice...
@@idanis5948 And obviously Demons never lie
Honestly, historically it's always been said and circulated that they have nothing to do with the lost primarchs...
... _So anyways retcons exist._
To me, the Carcharodons have always felt like more than just a successor chapter, or a merger of different chapters. I can't explain why, but they feel more fleshed out, presentation wise.
With current hints at an upcoming war within the forces of the Imperium, between the Imperial Inquisition and the Adeptus Astartes, this time for the betterment of all, it would present a most difficult chapter of Imperial history indeed...
Perhaps difficult enough to warrant the return of a Son of the Emperor.
Just imagine the shock of everyone if amidst the first volleys of that war, we get to see why the Purged met their fate, alongside the signaling of the Purged legion to once more unite in the face of civil war, their many forces hidden deep in the dark, now emerging to form the swirling mass that befits their name and title, the Space Sharks.
The summoning of the Carcharodons Furor proper, an eternal exile lifted, inquisitorial records seized and unveiled, a lost history remembered.
Millennia of lies, deception and secrets laid bare for all to see...
The sealed Primarch, Aequoreus Titanox, the Emperor's Wroth, and a Flotilla Legion of his sons swirling in from every corner of the Galaxy, unleashed, _in every sense of the word._
Of course, this is pure theory. Literal fanon.
But i do feel there's enough leeway to get away with it. The current evidence is obscure enough to allow for the restructuring of the narrative.
After all, what better way to symbolize the depth of the treachery of the Inquisition, than to unveil their longest kept secret?
What better way to have Guilliman call for a Legion re-unified than to put his brother on the line, in a time where he has none?
It might be just a theory... *_But i'd make for one hell of a story._*
That Carcharodon in the thumbnail looks like he's about to tell me we live in a society.
woah nice thanks for using my artwork on the thumbnail @Wolf Lord Rho
I already follow you on ArtStation, your art is amazing!
I like the idea they are Night lord loyalists.
They certainly fit the bill.
Love the Space Sharks and the Minotaurs they are my favorite chapters shadowed in mystery. I love my Blood Angels, White Scars, and Black Templar's more but they are very cool.
Based on books, it seems to hint that Space Sharks are a chimera of Night Lords and Raven Guard. And since Cawl apparently used all the legions for Primaris, they are plausible.
They existed before the Primaris, so Cawl isn't involved. They still might be Chimera tho.
@@PeteofHartainia I mentioned Primaris because of some artwork I have seen of Primaris Carcharodons, and it is established in lore that traitor legion material is used for chimeric gene seed. I forget what Chapter it was that was shown to have come from traitor gene seed (either fully or partially), and their leaders said to never reveal this to the rest of the chapter.
I’ve always wanted an animation from the perspective of a resident of a planet that is chosen for the ride tithe.
I've always held that the Charcharodons come from loyalist Night Lords and that all loyalist chapters that descend from traitor legions had their gene seed blended to conceal it and to protect them from persecution and from any serious mutations and complications. There are a few chapters that we know for certain that descend from traitor stock, the Minotaurs, the Red Scorpions and the Silver Skulls are the first that comes to mind,
The Charcaradons are one of my favorites. I believe that, from research, that they are the descendants of the exiled terran members of the Raven Guard, who became more savage and independent, making their own way in the Outer Dark.
My headcannon is that there are loyal terran born night lords that got stuck in the warp a little too long. Or cawl was doing cawl things
My theory is that while they are indeed raven guard succesors, the sharks are one of cawls experiments in not letting traitor primarch gene seed go to waste as the literature confirms that cawl sees no issue in using traitor gene in theory and perhaps even in practice (i mean, sons of the phoenix? Come on). The sharks are raven guard spliced with night lords, if the gene of the most insane primarch didn't turn them into renegades, it confirms cawl's suspicion that traitor gene seed can be used. However quirky the sharks may be.
The question of this comes up so often it’s been stated they are raven guard ex Terran and the other chapter they deal with being 30k rg renegades
these guys were the only space marines I actually wanted to play when they first came out in forgeworld.
i was wondering how long before you mentioned my boys
Hey Rho, So Tyberos has two unique power claws, Hunger and Slake, that were taken from the Ashen Claws chapter, Tyberos is notably over twice the height of a normal space marine (making him perfect to be the first space marine warhound if he crosses the rubicon). If Tyberos is so big, how does he wear power gauntlets for a normal marine?
Before I watch any further, I would like to explain why I think they are one of the lost legions:
1. Tyberos is Primarch-size
2. Nobody knows which Primarch they are decendents of. Which makes sense if Tyberos is a Primarch.
3. They have all rare old tech and equipment
4. Their security codes are all super old but still valid
5. It explains why there is no record of their history and achievements outside of the Badab Wars
*drops vox hailer and returns to the depths of outer space*
So what if Valdor is one of missing Primarch's and then they came up with the story of the Custodes for some as yet unexplained reason?
Or perhaps these Primarchs are Tyberos and Moloch? This is based purely on their size and strength.
You know whats interesting idk enough detail of all the primarchs yet but each primarch is basically a part of the emporers personality, perfectionist, leader, warrior etc so if we look at all the traits we do know we might be able to have a better idea of what the 2 lost primarchs would have been like. Or perhaps like the emporer said to horus 20 sons just as their is 20 constelations or sumn to that effect could give us a clearer look at the lost primarchs and their sons
Drawing only from the evidence, I think that they are only Raven Guard successors. The Forgotten One is Arcus Fowl due to his connections with the nomad predation patterns and his title of Shade Lord. The Void Father is stated to be the Emperor, and they state that they remember him as one who walks amongst men; placing them at just before the heresy or during it. They also deal heavily with the Ashen Claws whom they even have a pact with which would also suggest that they, the sharks, are just a more loyal version of the Ashen Claws. Void brothers whom have served in the deathwatch have been discribed as having very pure geneseed, so I see no evidence of it being chimaric with nightlords or world eaters. They make no mention of Corax which is exactly why they are still loyal, because their loyalties are to the Forgotten One, Arcus Fowl, and to the Void Father, The Emperor. Arcus was exiled by Corax BEFORE the heresy which means he would not have had the chance to be manipulated by the larger players, or the situation at large, as the Ashen Claws were, whom chose to be renegades. Instead, he made a chapter in the image of what he thought he could do for the imperium even in exile. He made an entirely self sufficient, brutal chapter in the image of the pre-Corax Raven Guard with en extremely fitting heraldry: A predator who stalks deep dark depths of voidlike ocean which strikes with no remorse in violence and unshakable resolve. THAT IS THE CARCHARODON ASTRA!
You are exactly right
Each primarch is one facet of the emperor, so recollect all the facets we have and take look what is missing to have a more firm and precise look and who the two lost pirmachs could have been.
Well hmmm...we are missing a water element right? We have earth, fire, wind, snow/frost, lightening, gold, etc. But we are missing water. Water represents life and healing. So we are missing a healer?
@@wrestlingguy8722 Could be, so NR:19 or 20 could have been a healer and we are missing death? So life and death got killed by the emperor or chaos or even take by chaos in whole shit maybe even imprisoned them. Ready to be rescued, maybe by grimnar? heck what if the legion of demnd is the one of the lost/forgotten primarchs legions and he still keeps fighting?!?!?!?!? Or he collects like the grim reaper the dead space marines and put them in his legion....
@@LDZMarder Are we missing death? Morty? Or is that just Disease?
@@wrestlingguy8722 Morty is defiance, I guess. He is always in arms against something.
I thought separatist non chaotic space marines originally of Corax's geneseed confirmed them as more brothers than cousins
I mean we already have dialog with Cawl and Guilliman about using the traitor Geneseed. Something about going into war with only half an armory of weapons.
It must suck to serve the emperor for years and be told that your going to finally meet your primarch father just for him to say "nah, yall give me bad vibes of my childhood. Your banished."
It is a distinct possibility that they could fall to chaos.
The Forgotten One was stated to be the First Shade Lord in the Newest Book. They have another name for their Primarch, The Void Father
@Jeff Johnson Shade Lord is the Title carried by their Chapter Master.
FW says they are a Raven Guard succesor chapter, rules wise, so i Think that is the closest thing we get to a definitive answer
I always found it strange that there were 2 wolf legions and not any bears.
I’m going to go way out there but i believe that the black templar which where the imperial fist templar is one of the lost legions. The same goes for the Ultra Marines 4th company. Both are way different then the rest in their legions. Dorn does recall being friends and fighting with one but his memories are some how broken or blocked.
Russ only dealt with one of the forgotten Primarchs. I believe it was Primarch Bungo of the Halfwit Legion. So annoying that they got exterminated.
The other beat the Emperor in an arm wrestle, and was immediately blanked, and sent out to the intergalactic void to face the oncoming Tyranids. He was known as Primarch Angellen Ripley, and is currently being chased around his flagship, the Imperator Snark, by a Swarmlord.
That, according to rumour, is a fact.
"We live in an imperium" looking thumbnail
Space Sharks are an awesome chapter!!
The theory goes that they are actually loyal Night Lords.
Because a demon teased a Night Lords attack force commander that their lost “Brothers” are on their way.
Not cousins, “Brothers”
Personally I think it was the Lion who wiped out the lost legions, the Dark Angels are the special forces, the ones you send to make a problem vanish while Russ's wolves are who you send to make a point. It would also explain some of the frankly insane casualties they took pre heresy during things like the Rangdan Xenocide
But Carcharadons are night lord's I think.
I really like the idea that they are essentially just companies that just weren't around for the Heresy, and nobody remembers.
I always assumed they were loyal Nightlords who were on a penitent crusade in the void.
That being said, I do like the theory that says the overly violent chapters that don't fit with their founding chapters ideals (black templars, mortifyers, ect) are from a forgotten legion. It also synergizes well with the other theory that one of the lost primarchs was lost in the warp and became Malal.
I believe they are either an offshoot of the Ashen Claws, or a forgotten loyalist contingent of Night Lord's. With the forgotten one being Sevatar
Raven Guard + World Eaters would be my best guess and if the Sharks are of the Raven Guard gene line why not the Black Dragons.
As for the 2nd and 11th I really doubt they where mixed into the Ultramarines they may have just been introduced as new "Terran" Companies and remained self contained in the 13th until the 2nd founding at which point they became chapters it could help explain some of the drift chapters of the 13th have endured.
I truly support the idea of them being loyalist night lords
Damn and here I thought the Carcharodons came from an ocean planet with their Primarch Aquaman...
I could see why The Emperor would hide him.
Could it be possible that there were some relatively "stable" raven guards made from the raptor project. And not being able to bring himself to purge them, since they were somewhat stable, Corax exiled them. Fearing they would be seen as tainted and destroyed he sent them out where they would gain the least amount of suspicion.
The first run of initiates from the Raptor project were stable, and worked as intended; The Alpha Legion cocked things up for the project shortly after.
@@barlotardy They presumably became the Raptors Chapter as well.
I always thought these are the loyalist World Eaters. Bloodshed and rotoweapons, checks out more than Raven Guard.
Cool beans. Another great video.
🛡You forgot about the "Black Glass". The Emperor entrusted the "Lost One" with hiding it.
This means the Emperor wouldn't be on the golden throne at this time so before the end of the Heresy.
I don't know of anyone within the Imperium that references any of primark's as "The lost" other than the 2ed and 11th or an example of a Legion - chapter being banished from imperium without being labeled a trader first other than the 2ed and 11th.
the forgotten one is sevatar or that raven guard guy corax exiled, hell it could be both, i think thje charcaradons are night lords and raven guard with maybe a little world eaters as the have a ship with ursas claws
Had to wonder if there's a planned Primarch that's originally water based, with Aquaman like powers.
My pet theory is that Sevatar played a role in the founding of the Carcharodons..........lore arguments aside.......man that would be cool!
The Carcharidons are the love child of the Nightlords and the Ravenguard and an extremely unlucky mime.
The connection to Arkhas Fal is just too much to really overlook. Especially since the Carcharadons use the NEVER used Predation formation/pattern for their fleet/fleet tactics (Imperium tends to use the Crusade formation/pattern for their fleet structure ever since the Great Crusade). The degradation of their geneseed over millennia without any real contact beyond fringe contact, with the Imperium, could explain a lot of their savagery/viciousness - it's pretty well known what happens to man left alone long enough in the darkness.
Their tactics are VERY similar to the tactics of the Raven Guard, just modified (ten millennia will lead to changing/adaptation of tactics to a point that they're only baseline similar to the original tactic(s)). I like to think that they were also given the Rubic Primaris also; because the concept of a Primaris rebirth of Tyberos the Red Wake actually is amazing. Tyberos + the additional new gland Primaris have + the additional size = amazing.
It seems everyone assumes that Russ took out one or both of the lost Primarchs but couldn't that line refer to when he censured Angron?
My theory for the erased legions ?
One of them mixed with Xenos,
The another one with wizardry or demons. That's why they had to disappear to explore far distant space or into the warp or eye of terror or something.
I'm not that much into how all the fan chapters are really one of them 2.
That's theory for every little boy.
And I really love the Carcharodons !
I hope they get properly codexed soon.
And no ! They are not chaotic (just like the Alpha Legion are not).
I believe Alpha Legion is the only one who keeps contact with them and they will be the deciding force in the final war.
This is kinda off topic, but whenever the lost legions are mentioned, the question that still gnaws away at me is : Precisely what unforgivable crime **could** they have committed that warranted such utter obliteration and erasure that the traitor legions haven't already committed? What crime, what horror, what obscenity did they commit that was so heinous to be so completely and totally erased? I mean, if the crimes of the traitor legions don't warrant deletion (sure the populations of humans may not be aware of the traitors, but the Astartes definitely are), just WTF does?? Did someone fart in the presence of The Emperor or something?