Be honest, you pulled out your sovereign citizen 'travelling' card and the judge bought it. Seriously, the leniency people need their heads read in your case.
Around 20 years ago I was a regular donator (around $500 per annum) to the kids charity that the police run here in Queensland. I was stopped on a country road by a traffic cop who jumped out from behind a bush and got me for doing 83 in an 80 zone. No leniency was given or asked for, however I did mention to him that I’ll be using my charity donation to pay the fine if it goes through…and guess what….the prcik lodged it anyway. Needless to say that they have lost around $10k in donations over that time as I now refuse to help the cops out at all. Oh, it was the only speeding ticket I’ve ever had.
I drive a truck and was turning left at an intersection , as there were pedestrians walking in front of the truck the lights had turned orange then red and I was caught in no man’s land . I was forced to make the turn on red , as a result it triggered the cameras. I appealed to state revenue and was also rejected even though the photographic evidence was overwhelming. Feeling an injustice here, I took the matter to court ,the magistrate found in my favour and was awarded a section 10. Like you I formed a strong opinion of state revenue
About 10 years ago I had to collect an engineer from Sydney Airport, complete with his 35 kgs toolbox. As I arrived at the airport I saw him standing at the kerb, so I stopped in a pull-in space, just past the entrance, to allow him to get in. As I got out of the car a ranger appeared from nowhere and shouted something to me. I could not hear what he was saying because of the traffic and walked over to hear what he was saying. He told me that I could not stop where I was and that he was going to write me a ticket. I told him that I could not see anything saying I could not stop there and that I would move the car immediately. By this time the engineer was in the car and we left. Next day a ticket arrived in the post (thanks for the brilliant service Australia Post!) with a hefty fine, not for stopping or parking, but for failing to obey the instructions of a ranger. All of my work colleagues told me that it was pointless to try to appeal the ticket, but I gave it a go anyway. I rang the number on the ticket and explained what had happened. I also said that I had obeyed with the ranger’s instructions and moved my car immediately. To my surprise I received a letter a few days later cancelling the fine because after speaking to the ranger he had admitted that I moved the car immediately. The letter also said that they would not issue me with a parking fine as the parking notice was obscured by another sign and thanking me for pointing this out to them,!
Had a similar experience at Karratha airport. Circling in and out of the airport car park waiting for a delayed flight. So thought I'll just stop on this gravel strip and run inside and see when they expect the bloody thing to land. I went past the parking inspector who said nothing to me. I get out he was writing a ticket.. he refused to communicate with me until he had finished.. very rude. No sign.. not obstructing emergency services.. not too near the building.. not on any garden.. all these things he tried to tell me I'd done wrong. All he could tell me was that it was a reserve marked on councils website.. like who looks up councils website before parking a car for a few minutes. I wrote a huge letter to council about it and how they had violated their own motto about educating the public as he saw me park and didn't even tell me then.. move on. I told council I take it to court or they can drop it. They dropped it.
Happy you got off. No harm done. No crash. No injuries. You never even crossed the junction. All good. I have a completely different view of how fair courts are regarding traffic offences. My father whilst assisting another motorist who had broken down got hit by a drunk driver that had left the road. The other guy whose car was broken down, lost his legs. My dad spent 6 weeks in traction. Damaged legs and back. And had continuous back pain the remainder of his life. The drunk got off with a fine. My mother on the way to work was killed in a head on car crash. The van that hit her was on her side of the road. The driver of which had multiple driving offenses against his name. Hit her at a time when he should have already clocked on at work miles away. So was running late. Come to your own conclusions. But got off with no offense recorded. Having killed someone. Just last week I was driving along quite legally. When bang a car hit me from the side. Unregistered car. No Insurance. A young bloke had done a U turn straight into me. Police don't want to know. Non injury traffic accident. Yet the car wasn't registered. Isn't that an offense. And now my insurance is playing hard ball about what they will pay for. When none of it was my fault. So am I enamoured about how fair and wonderful our Police and justice system are. Not in the least.
This video is way more useful than every single piece of "Is it legal to...?" and "Is it illegal to...?" clickbaity horseshit produced by Drive and CarExpert combined. Congrats on the win, John.
I applied for a leniency review for an 80 in a 60 speeding fine and it was granted so it can happen. In my favour was a 10 year clean driving record and the infringement wasn’t in a school zone.
@@dansearle7024 CE itself is one of the better automotive sites out there and I appreciate a lot of the content they put out, but their recent series of "Is it legal?" articles have cheapened the site just a tad. Honest personal opinion.
@@AutoExpertJC I think you had a fair magistrate on the day that took your prior exemplary record into consideration. Thanks all the same for the tips about section 10 and just to say nothing when a police officer puts words into your mouth saying Did you realise you went through a red light.
spot on, ATM on wheels. It drives me nuts when you cop a fine for 3klms over a 100klm limit on a road that presents the best possoble conditions for driving.
@@kenwilliams3279 would it be prudent to go 100 km/h on a motorway when it is heavily raining and you can barely see the car in front of you? After all, the sign does say 100 km/h on it and you wouldn't want to be charged with impeding traffic on a busy motorway? Fact of the matter is distance between vehicles and paying attention to the road is what saves lives, not merely speed. Germany doesn't have a speed limit for much of their motorways and yet they have a much lower fatality rate than Australia. Why is that?
@j2simpso Possibly because the people causing the killings on our roads now have never been told about Hitler, Stalin or Bin chicken Laden and don't know the repercussions of being a c#%t. In other words, we have a lot of brain dead, entitled mother lover's on our roads who think and act just like the fore mentioned and get away with it.
@@j2simpso Probably because the Autobahn has dual lanes and everyone drives to their comfort level without having to overtake on the wrong side of the road.
A day in court is definitely a life-affirming experience. It forces you to confront the reality of the lives of many people out there while you wait for your turn.
Over forty years ago I got off a parking fine, somewhat like John I was guilty as charged. I parked on a street near a shopping centre the day before Mother's day contrary to a no parking sign that read no parking in the hours I was there. When I got the fine in the mail I noticed that the cop had written on the fine that the sign had read no parking x hours Monday to Friday, no mention of Saturday. Aha, a loop hole, I when to court, and pleaded not guilty, and told the magistrate that the date of the offence was on a Saturday, they checked the calendar and the case was dismissed. The magistrate muttered that maybe the police should read the signs properly. :)
They never paid attention at school, so what can you expect from them? Why do you think they became police, engineering was too boring easy for them? #You'reAcop?ShouldHavePaidAttentionAtSchool
Great story John. I got a low level revenue camera fine in NSW some years ago and the paperwork that came with it really reflected what it was about. The cheesy "PAY NOW" written all over it made it look more like a cash grab than any other bill I've received in my life. And they wonder why people have a negative view of over-zealous enforcement of minor traffic offences...
Its not just about the money mate. Can you imagine the strain on the system if every man an his dog was encouraged to apply for leniency and take every matter to court?
As a child in the USA in the 1960s, the high school driver ed program showed films of bodies being removed from accident cars. To say this made an "impact" on our minds is understatement.
About ten years ago, I was travelling to work on my motorcycle (something I didn't usually do) when I tripped a speed camera on James Ruse drive just before the M4. I was travelling from my home in Windsor. I had planned to use the bike in stead of the train on two days as I was covering for one of my security guards just before Christmas( I was the supervisor of the site we worked at). I was oblivious to the camera fine at the time. The next day, apparently, I was pinned again for the same thing. I was allegedly doing 80 in a 70 zone. At the time I was just moving with what little traffic was on the road at that time of the morning. I received the fines about one month after the actual date of the act. What bugged me the most about these fines is the time it took to arrive at my house. When you get pulled over by the police, you instantly look at your speed and you have an idea whether you were actually guilty. This acts as a motivation to be more aware of your speed and the speed limit you are travelling through. Getting the fines one month later made me feel like I was taking part in revenue raising. The part of the 4 lane highway I was trapped at had constantly changing speeds and just before the camera was a 90 zone. I took it court. I was presented with a folder by the prosecution which contained the said camera's maintenance schedule as well as pictures of me riding down the road. When asked by the Magistrate how fast did I think I was going, I answered "I have no idea". I said all I could attest to was I was riding safely. Having received the fines so long after the incident I had no clue as to the speed I was travelling or, indeed, that I had been pinged by the camera. My record was similar to John's and I was issued a Section 10. One thing different was I still lost all of my points (double demerits were in force at the time). The State authorities said they had proved their case so their penalty still stood. I didn't have to pay the fine but I had to pay court costs (about $50).
Well done John! I'm a criminal lawyer in UK. The best words I can hear from the judge is that they don't want to hear from me (or read my submissions). That means I've won. If the judge wants to find against me, he has to be seen to be hearing from me (or reading my stuff).
Decent judges who use their powers of discretion as needed and as intended are so important in democratic societies. For all the issues in this country, being able to talk to a competent real person in the judiciary when shit hits the fan is almost all their is separating this country from a 3rd rate dictatorship.
Awesome video! I just wished this had come out about an year ago. I would have helped me keep my NZ DL record clean. Long story short I bought a car from a seller in another city and go pulled over for going above the speed limit maybe 300 meters after entering an intersection. I had 70Km/h limit in my mind because that's what it was before that intersection but as I pulled out of the petrol station after a quick stop for a snack, that stretch of road was now 50Km/h. It was an honest mistake and as soon as I saw the police lights on the opposite lane I knew it was for me. I pulled over so quickly that I had already stopped when I saw the police officer drive past me on the other side and then do an U-turn. I explained all this to him and he still gave me a ticket. When I questioned him about why not just give me warning and send me on my merry way, he said "If you get pulled over, you get a ticket". That was it, he couldn't have made it any clearer that road safety was not the focus here. Earlier that day I flew from Wellington to Nelson to buy a car and was going to do the long drive through Lewis Pass in order to get back to Picton to jump on the ferry back to Welly. The main roads between Nelson and Blenheim were blocked due damage cause by heavy storm a week prior. His words stuck with me. It was an honest mistake, maybe I missed the 50Km/h sign as I entered this new stretch of road. After all it was a city I had never been to before. I complied, as soon as I saw his lights I thought "did I really just go a bit too fast? I'll pull over then". I answered all his questions respectfully. He asked me what was the reason for speeding and I said I didn't realise I was speeding and I apologised for it if I did. Car was mine and in my name. My records were up to date in the system and my home address matched. I had no fines for over 10 years. The whole ordeal just left me with a sour taste in my mouth about police in general in New Zealand. Still remember about 18 years ago when I came to this country for the first time, that I got pulled over and the officer then explained what I had done wrong and still let me go. He said he'd keep an on out for me in case I did it again, and that he wouldn't let me leave without a fine if it happened again. He educated me and he did not have to reach into my wallet to do it. I heard people complain that it is now all a cash grab operation and I didn't agree. For years I didn't believe it. Always thought they must have done something utterly wrong and they deserved getting a ticket. I guess I was wrong. I guess I should have contested it. I don't think this was fair and now I can't do anything about it. I hit the PAY NOW button and moved on. Thank you for the enlightenment moment John... =)
Where I grew up, you are required to display a current tax disc on the windscreen of your car. Walking with Dad as a kid through the village he idly commented that ever car parked on the stretch from the green to the police station had an out of date tax disc. He mentioned this to a passing policeman. "Mind your business" was the curt reply. So it was ok for the cops to drive without paying car tax on their private cars. But I'm sure that policeman would have had no problem ticketing a car he didn't recognise further up the village streets ....
I reckon he read it for sure later with his afternoon coffee, everyone in the Prosecutors office would have had a read too. All would have been impressed and recognised the effort you put into it, he knew it when you handed it up, you got credit for giving a shit and being PREPARED. 👏💪
John, I wish you could do some videos where you interview people, or chair a panel discussion about various subjects, with experts, regulators, etc. You cut through the BS like no other journalist in the whole world and have the knack of making a complex idea or situation digestable and understandable by regular people. Great video.
great recounting of your experience. noteworthy is that yes, you may have lost 3 points and copped 454 dollar fine, but an unknown hidden cost is the 40 months it takes to reclaim your third party insurance premium discount, which can amount to an additional $600 dollars over that time. Frank
Excellent advice John! Like you I take pride in my long term, 30+years, years clean driving license (and that last time was a minor and honest mistake) . I try hard to maintain my good record because doing so makes the road safer for everyone. So if I ever get a fine, it will be an honest error, and having now seen this video, I will seek leniency. Thank you Sir! Your advice is highly valued!
The prosecutor should have dropped the case and it should never have gone to the court. This proves it that its a revenue raising exercise and nothing to do with road safety. Had John just driven off and not stopped then yes he should have been fined then.
Well done John. My approach in court was far more reckless, arguing that it wasn't for me to decide my guilt/innocence and this was the magistrate's sole "raison d'etre". DPP said for the plea to be entered as not guilty. Asked for the record to show that the DPP's comment was presumptuous. Session was stood down for a later hearing. The protection officer on duty said I was the most entertaining case all day :-) Received a letter in the mail a week later telling me my fine was dismissed on "technical grounds". A lawyer friend told me later that this was code for getting rid of minor infringements where the cost recovery wasn't worth it - all about the citizens being revenue ATMs as you pointed out. Coincidentally, never seen a speed camera infringement in the mail since.
Yes John I can relate to a seniors moment. Done the same at a set of lights whilst heading out west via the blue mountains for work at an unfamiliar intersection at 6am. Got one car length then realised it was a green arrow. No traffic so proceeded safely as I couldnt reverse and didnt want to remain there until traffic did arrive. On another point the cops really need to clamp down on wankers that tailgate and idiots that remain in the right lane after overtaking.
Tailgating is my pet hate, multiple experiences of getting rear-ended, even cars totalled... Aggressively overtaking on the right lane, after they've prevented you from changing lanes AND freeing the left one for them is another one!
As a retired police officer, I always advised anyone that I ticketed to go to court. I too, received two citations once when still sworn and once after I retired. Both times I attended court and the results were positive. ALWAYS go to court.
Thats how most states in the USA got rid of speed cameras. Everyone opted to go to court that was pingged speeding. Clogged up the court system massively. The backlog was so huge they had to turn the cameras off. Many government departments had loans or fees to pay to have the cameras and have them maintained even though they were not being used. It was deemed financially unviable to have them outside of a patrol car situation and they got rid of most of them. People seen them for what they were, speed cameras not safety cameras.
A mate of mine had a cop on a motorcycle pull out in front of him once, years ago. He ran over him. They tried everything to charge my mate for the crash but witnesses all said the cop was at fault. Everywhere he went from that day, he had a cop behind him, until he sold the car
yep this is the way... The force is a giant mob like structure, they will tighten a net around you and act like your a murderer. Been there done that, i always thought i could trust the police.... yeah... no.
cool story bro.. you should know that police can pull the vehicle rego details for any name and/or address, so if they really wanted to harass your mate, he would have to move interstate.
I’m off to court at the end of this month. Your vlog has validated my submission approach. I thought I may have over egged the pudding but I am feeling more comfortable thanks to you. Much appreciated. Regards Lin
EVERY person should take these cases to court. It would clog up their system and they'd soon change the law although probably to remove your right to go to court.
Thank you John, excellent story telling and you really should have been a lawyer! Been enjoying your UA-cam content for a few years now - I keep coming back.
Like yourself John, my driving licence matters (not a motoring journalist but a truck driver). Going back about 10 years, I was about my job (multi-drop HR truck in Sydney) and I turned right at a set of traffic lights 4 minutes before the 9:00am curfew ended - it was a regular run but on this occasion I was a bit early and I wasn't watching the clock. I got pulled by the HWP who issued a ticket and because I've got a national HVDL the penalties double. I got off the penalties because my licence was clean, but what left a sour taste was that the NSW HWP was there at 8:54am at all.
From Adelaide back to Victoria, there was one town with a lower speed limit than the others on the highway (60km/h vs 80km/h or something similar). After 4 or 5 towns slowing to 80km/h, I was pulled up by SA highway patrol. When he told me I was speeding I thought he was joking. Fair enough, all the other towns slow to 80km/h, but this one just happens to be 60km/h. The towns all seemed similar, with no reason for the lower speed limit, and I told him this. It came across as a scam, but suffice to say I paid attention from then on, in case of any more SA traffic department trickery.
The "system" screws the average person at the end of the day there is less money in your pocket. However watching "dash cam type videos" on youtube shows lunatics speeding through red lights , four wheels jives driving over footpaths and physical centre islands and then through red lights on the wrong side of the road seemingly immune to being caught.
the difference with those types is that they know which intersections have camera's or they are driving cars with stolen plates, so don't care if their plate gets recorded..
As a 78 yr old driver I can tell you John that your little lapse of concentration is the first of an ever increasing number of lapses as you age, so hopefully you learned from this and work actively to constantly evaluate your behaviour, reactions etc and adjust your behaviour accordingly. I've had to do this, coming up with refreshment strategies, planning trips carefully etc. so far successfully, fingers crossed.
I was sat in the right turn lane in my work vehicle and someone drove into the rear of the van. This in turn pushed me over the line and the fine camera functioned. When the light turned Green we both pulled over and called police as we were now on an on-ramp to the free way and exchanged information and got a police report number. His vehicle need to be towed as the radiator was damaged. About two weeks later I received a letter informing me of the fine and a picture of me over the line. Sent of the paperwork and an explanation of the events. No, still ordered to pay the fine. So took it too court, 7 months later I ended up in court. 2-3min and I was given a pass and a clean licence. To be fair the proses up until that point was relatively easy. The hardest part was filing for costs (I didn’t use a lawyer) reimbursement for my time was difficult to get back. Thankfully my company helped out and managed to work it all out with me. But it was by far the hardest thing to do with the whole process.
Great story John. I like the idea of bringing us the story but not being part of it. Years ago, I was pulled over 1 km from home for not wearing a seatbelt - and the copper mentioned that it was a dbl D weekend too. I explained that I was on my way to work, and reversing out the driveway I had to stop and unbuckle to move the wheelie bin. Anyway, he let me off with a warning, and to try to make good on that gesture, I sent a company wide email telling them about it, reinforcing the importance of seatbelts, and the safety they will be providing over the coming long weekend. I feel that was the least I could do for the leniency I received.
Travelling from Sydney to Batemans bay I noticed that not only did the speed limit change for no reason from a 100 to 80 to 90 to 80 etc. All the time , my 5 year old sat.nav. also constantly gave a different speed limit. This means they change it around on a consistent basis to catch the unsuspecting motorist that missed one of their signs to create revenue. On the other hand, on the way back I got done on ED for going 88 in a 80 zone by a camera, asked for a revue, stating I was following traffic on a for me unfermilliar road, not aware of the speed limit, as it was a split 2 lane road just like a freeway. Having no points after driving for 30 years must have weighed in, as they let me off .
Thanks for your video John, I found it very helpful and my circumstances here in Brisbane are very similar to yours. A good mate of mine recommended I watch this video (btw my mate's opinion of you was less than favourable, I believe due to the small portion of what he had viewed ie. your "wacky out there" sales pitch style at the beginning of your clips). My driving record is very important to me and prior to this incident, in the past decade (at least) or two, my driving history show's 1 blemish from February this year (2023) when my 15 year old daughter decided to place her seatbelt under her left arm in the passenger seat, during a drive up the M1 after a day at Wet'n Wild (obviously without my knowledge until after the fact). I have also recently been through a civil court battle (I instigated), self representing in the Federal Circuit Court of Australia, so I am now quite well versed in Court procedures and etiquette..........before watching your clip, I was probably edging towards just paying the fine, but now maybe you have supplied me with another option and some confidence in the possible outcome - thank you for making the effort to share your experience with the rest of Australia.
22:52 Same thing happened to me - many moons ago my daughter stopped breathing and was taken by ambulance with my wife to Westmead hospital, I followed them in my car and got a speeding fine (under 15 km at the time). I was young and explained the situation so what did they do, took some 20 minutes to issue me a fine. This happened at 3am with only myself and the ambulance on the road.
In Danistan it’s called section 76, Sentencing Act. Proven and dismissed. Regularly used by people with no prior convictions. If you hold recent prior convictions (within the last 10 years), good luck. If you hold none, usually minor offending without mandatory sentences e.g. drink or drug driving, you’ll likely get the opportunity of section 76.
About 14 -15 years ago now , I beat one of these exact things WITHOUT Court . Got the " Love Letter " in the mail . Went to the Website , Purchased the Photos online ($20 from memory) as a reminder of the Day . Thought about it for a Day and then submitted a Detailed analysis of events on the day , at the time . A Familiar intersection . About a week later I received an E-mail that the matter was " Given Leniency in this instance " . Bureaucrat speak . Matter CLOSED .
Way back in the early 90’s my shit navigator says right turn here as we about to pass the street. There was no other cars on the road. The rear tyres let out the barest of squeals. Next thing I know there is a cop car racing up behind. I waited for them to put their lights on before pulling over. They asked why the tyres squealed. I explained that I had almost missed the turn. They then said they could have made the turn without squealing a wheel and perhaps my car wasn’t road worthy. I pointed out that they were driving a brand new cop car and I was driving a 15 year old kingswood with 400kg of DJ and lightning on board so their comparison was somewhat skewed. They gave up trying to get me to admit to anything and gave me a warning.
Judges are pretty awesome. Had a few hearings in the last year whereby some false accusations were made. Victoria Police is pretty much forced to act even in the complete absence of evidence. Saw two different judges and they both said the accusations were serious but they also realised there was no evidence. Used a lawyer for one hearing but he was useless. So self represented and the judge was prepared to show heaps of procedural leniency. From my experience they like you to be honest and humble. They have very little time for lawyers that fumble their words and get things wrong. It always helps to be prepared and know what outcomes you could expect. Leave the ego and attitude at home.
This is interesting in that I had a very similar traffic fine, however when I went to court, the Magistrate, having read my mitigating circumstances, advised me that by pleading guilty, her "hands were tied" and the points MUST stay! She waved the fine, but the points still stayed. Made me realize, I should have plead not guilty even though the camera clearly showed me in breach of the Law
Storytime: While on my L's on my bike back in 2020 I think, I was sent a fine in the mail for 71 in a 60 zone. It appeared the details were correct. It had the licence plate for my bike etc. However, I couldn't remember riding in that location that was given. I did my best to look up this location and Google Maps said it was in Sydney, I have never ridden in Sydney so that was odd. However, I thought well maybe I am just not finding this road name in the right location and had thought about just paying the fine. I didn't end up doing that. I got home ( I was out when I read the letter) anyway once home I found my way to the camera image (the better quality one) and saw that it couldn't have been me cause I couldn't even recognise the location. Also, it wasn't my bike and it wasn't me. I downloaded the photo, zoomed in on the number plate and was able to determine the actual plate number. So I called up to contest with my reasoning and the girl on the phone was great, she advised me to contest in writing so that's what I did and it was removed from me as the offender. It is always important to confirm whether or not you are actually the one committing the offence. Not just pay it cause it might seem too difficult. I could have ended up with money gone and points on my licence for something I didn't do. Letting someone else off the hook. This also would have done in my record that has been clean since I finished my red p suspension back in the day at 17, 31 at the time of the notice in the mail for the bike.
I had the same in Melbourne many years ago. I got a speeding fine in the mail, and found it odd as I didn't remember driving in that location before. The camera photo showed a completely different car & number plate to mine, but from memory the car was the same colour as mine. It was easy to clear up.
This information is useful (as you mentioned) if you have a pretty clean record. One thing to note is that tickets never disappear from your record (even if 30 years back). If you have numerous tickets (even if spaced apart), this is taken into account by the officer busting you and (b) it will be dragged up when fighting a ticket. I used to be proud of my ticket free licence , very (over the top) law abiding stance then I got a really dumb ticket for my lights. It was only $30 back then (same as $80 - $100 these days probably) but that had ruined my perfect record. I accepted it, paid it but tried to follow the law precisely in the future. I also got a ticket for proceeding a broken red light (at 4am with no traffic for about 10 minutes sitting there). I tried to pay it but that failed because the incompetent cop had written the wrong code on the ticket. I had to go visit the police. I went there, spoke to them, told them the story and they said to put it in writing and give it to them (which I did). This turned into 2 tickets now (with the correct codes for running a red light (same light, same time, same location, same vehicle) so that's 6 points. One was for proceeding a red light (i.e. driving past the line from a stop and keep on going (or same as what you did) and also failing to stop for a red (as if I didn't stop at all). Two tickets, 2 sper fines. NOTE: If the officer had written the ticket correctly in the first place, there would have been no sper fee. I played russian roulette some more by asking the cops to explain why I got 2 tickets (playing with fire) as it financially hit me paying 2 tickets (both on my credit card as I had insufficient money , was in financial hardship at the time with a very limited income). Thankfully they decided to withdraw one of the tickets (many months later - still interest being charged and unable to pay off the credit card) and stated it was an "admin error". Another month later they finally sent a cheque for 1 of the tickets back to me. It took me about 5 months to pay off that initial fine (yeah, real problems with income at the time) With that, and a ticket doing 2 KPH over the limit, a bolo (police information / opinion without any evidence) , there is no chance of ever fighting a ticket (even though these few tickets spanned over a period of 30 + years. I do wish I would have challenged that initial red light ticket in court, gathered evidence that the lights were broken (wired the wrong way - In the control box they have a PLC *or similar* with sensors that plug in [traffic sensors to know if you are approaching / at the red light]. These were around the wrong way because when I approached , the light went red and stayed red. It thought I was in the side street. You wouldn't notice this problem during the day as there would be cars on both the main road and the side street). Of course, now with the bolo (had for years), I am on the hitlist. With the auto plate readers you get pulled over a lot and the officer says, "You have been selected at random for a random breath test / drug test / vehicle inspection".. Ok, I don't drink alcohol, don't take illegal drugs so I comply , test negative, waste 5 - 15 minutes of my time and leave. It was happening daily for a while until they noticed the fixed cameras recording each time :D That's on the bolo as well :D
Also in NSW there is the option for a Work and Development Order. You need to meet certain criteria, but if successful instead of paying the fine you can do a course, volunteer work, or similar, for x hours based on the fine amount.
I had one recently where I was driving 8km UNDER the limit in a tunnel when the speed limit was suddenly varied down to 60km and I was booked on the camera. I wanted to take it to court, but I ended up deciding the $150 fine wasn't worth losing a day over... Which I'm sure is the conclusion they wanted me to come to.
This is making me wish I'd contested the "failure to STOP" at a STOP sign fine I received a few years ago. I decided I couldn't afford to lose a case and probably would, but it would have been fun. My defence would have had two parts. Firstly, I had stopped and I believe I did so far enough back from the line that I could see the entire road to my right but the cop's view of me was obscured by a hedge, which was the same colour as my car. More importantly I found that NZ legislation contained no definition of "stop" other than that a "stop" is a "complete stop". Without invoking Zeno's arrow I believed I could have argued that this is too subjective to be meaningful. For what duration must the vehicle make no observed movement and what duration of "stop" can a human perceive? Does it vary between humans? Is perception affected by whether a vehicle creeps very slowly to a possible stop, or stops like an F1 car achieving a 0.1 second pit stop. At what distance and viewing angle can a human perceive this? Does a reading of 0 on a monitored vehicle log constitute proof of a stop (even if the software has rounding) and so on. Oh what fun it might have been.
Dear Mr. Cadogan: In my 53 years of driving, I am not proud to say that I've gotten about 30 citations. With two exceptions, I went to court on each one. I won on ALL but one of them ( and there I got a reduced sentence). I always go to court unless I'm so obviously and egregiously guilty. Getting older has turned me into an ( almost) model driver, I've gotten no citations in the last decade.. You are quite right about the value of going to court prepared and in a respectful mien. That, alone, has served me well. Congratulations on your victory. If I lived in Oz, instead of 'merica, I'd ask for a copy of your pleading to the court. Others may be interested in it though. Your fan, Dennis Wolterding
After watching this video with interest ..i fronted traffic court about 2 weeks later where i had been pinged at a Red Light camera ..PAY NOW !!! even after i wrote and explained the circumstances..to no avail..PAY NOW OR PAY MORE !!! ..when my turn came i explained to the charming and open minded magistrate that the truck in front of me stalled / baulked across the intersection leaving me stranded until he found a gear or the ignition key and proceeded to exit ... also in my defense i had my brakes on ..lights illuminated in the 2 pictures taken by the camera.. He smiled at me and said "Well im certain this can happen to any of us at anytime and im willing to dismiss the offence ..the Police Prosecutor who was present also agreed and i was let go ..no warning no penalty..Thank goodness for logic and understanding of the court system!!! Yes PAY NOW OR ELSE ...GFY!!! Thank you Mr Cadogan for your advice...
John Cadogan this must be one of your best U Tube presentations , normally I think you are a full ship . You have proven me wrong I enjoyed your story telling kudos to you loved it immensely 🌟😎👏🎉
38:23 We ( my wife driving ) had a speeding issue in a 40 zone, when a fine arrived from REVENUE I saw red. Long story short we went to Court, her 50 years of clean driving nailed it, apart from saying there were NO kids anywhere and we entered the road between the RED flashing signage, it was short and sweet and worth the day out 🤩
I know a public bus driver who was booked by a Highway Patrol officer a few years ago for "Not stop at stop line at yellow arrow". Seriously, has any motorist, let alone a bus driver, ever been booked for that?! The bus driver pleaded Not Guilty in court on the basis that because, like any careful driver of a heavy vehicle that's wider than the lane it occupies, he was frequently checking his external mirrors and didn't see the arrow change from green to yellow (it remained yellow a total of four seconds). When he noticed the arrow, he made a split-second assessment that it was safer to continue through the intersection on the yellow than brake heavily with unrestrained elderly passengers on board. If there'd been a red light camera at that intersection it wouldn't have taken a shot. The police car's dashcam video, played in court, showed the bus's front wheels, which are at least 2m behind the front bumper, crossing the line as the red arrow lit up. But the magistrate who, like the traffic cop, apparently had no experience driving a heavy vehicle, let alone a 13-tonne, 12.5m-long public bus, found the charge proven. He refused even to consider a scanned page from the bus company's driver training manual stating that heavy braking should be avoided, because the page was identified in handwriting and not printing. He said that he might have had a different opinion if passengers had been standing in the aisle, but considered that unrestrained seated occupants wouldn't have been at risk if the driver had slammed on the brakes. Who needs seatbelts then? The bottom line is that an ignorant lower-court verdict has lost Sydney yet another bus driver during a shortage that daily leaves dozens of shifts unfilled. Job well done, Officer. Job well done, Your Honour.
Well done, mate. Your account at 31:06 reminds me of the movie 'The Perfect Witness' with Aidan Quinn's character, who prepares for a trial and then has a similar pay-off to his preparation (I won't spoil a good film if you haven't seen it).
Candidly, I was considering that there'd be an engineering angle to the story. Happy for your positive outcome, and experience in court. Did the Crown provide you with disclosure as required? They often don't in these matters. The state has an obligation to prove every element of an alleged offence beyond reasonable doubt. I've always forced them to take me to court. I do it on principle. I reckon that everyone should have the court experience as an observer. Sit through half a day of magistrates, district, and supreme court sessions. They can be anything from boring, exciting, and horrific. Highly recommended.
Correct the yellow or amber light is class as stop, and you can be booked for going through it.. A couple of years ago, I was initially pulled over and booked for going through an orange light.. Making a left-hand turn, the light was green right up to the time I approached the line, the last time I glanced at it, it was definitely green. My only problem was that I was going too slow around the corner and in that time the light changed to amber, then bang I had the red and blue disco light flashing behind me. Upon being pulled over the copper smartly stated that I went through an amber light, I argued the point over and over, but upon issuing me the fine, he f#%ked up and described that I went through a red light instead. Fortunately, I had a witness in the car with me. Long and short, I won the case, it got thrown out of court but cost me a lot more than the potential fine, as it was adjourned 4 times, so time off work to fight it cost was way more, but for me it was the principle that I did not break the law.. Another time before that I was booked for going 4klms over on a 60 zone, I said to the cop you should be out catching real criminals instead of easy money grabbing, that one sure did go down too well.😂😅😂😅
Your comment about fairness is spot on. Unlike those who are measured on issuing revenue invoices or receiving revenue, magistrates are interested in fairness. Not everyone/not many will have a clean driving record to rely on, but if the ticket is unfair the magistrate will hear it. That especially applies to minor offences where the penalty is not fair, like compulsory suspension for minor speeding for provisional licence holders, and the subsequent thousands of dollars increase in insurance premiums. Note it goes both ways, and if you're trying to fight based on an obscure technicality, it won't go well.
I totally agree with you that government treats motorists as ATM machines, it's all about the money and not much about just safety. In saying in 1982 that I was booked for staying over the time limit in liverpool while I went to see the real estate agent. I sent a letter to NSW revenue asking for leniacy and I was let off the fine. Another incident I was booked for not fully stopping at a stop sign back in 1985 and wrote the NSW revenue, I was asked to attend an evening lecture about traffic and driving but I didn't have to pay the fine or lose any points
Thanks for the confession and advice John. I have also found if you believe you were pinged incorrectly, you can write a clarifying letter to the police within the 28 day fine payment period requesting the offence be dropped. This can be useful where speed limit signs are obscured or misplaced as sometimes happens around road works. In your case having stopped when you realised the error and not completing the turn (as long as you were not blocking traffic) would also be a saving grace because accidents involving stationary vehicles tend to be less severe. Ultimately of course level 5 FSD is likely the answer in saving you from your brain fades. FSD is certain to save fines, animals, pedestrians, other drivers, vehicles, and also a lot of street furniture.
My last fine was just over 2 years ago, I tried for leniency but failed even though the copper said you should be shown it . I put it down to the lack of funds the government was getting at the time due too the lockdown’s. My crime was. I was travelling on an expressway in a line of 5 cars (I was number 3) up ahead there was a hwy car with a car pulled over (lights on) so I moved into the inside lane to give clearance for the officer standing next to the driver’s door ( no other car in the line did this) unbeknownst to me there was another hwy car just up the road a bit . Next thing I know I’m being pulled over, he showed me the radar gun indicating that I was doing 110 kph and asked me if I had seen the other car with its lights on too which I replied yes that is why I changed lanes. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing with it being a dual lane road but apparently you still have to slow down, anyway he took my details went and did his checks and then returned and asked me whether I have ever had I fine because I’m not in the system, I told him I lost my license in 1989 and have not had one since. The copper then went on to tell me to write a letter and I should get off because of my good record, I asked him why don’t you just give me a caution? To which he claimed he couldn’t. Anyway I wrote the letter, it was denied because of the serious nature of the offence, from memory it was $574 plus 5 points. I never thought about contesting it but after watching your video maybe I should of.😅
Very good summary of a common court experience. Written statement ✅️ 3 copies ✅️ lawyer ⛔️ (they overcomplicate matter) I have been in court for driving matters 3 times, and received a section 10.1a for all 3. My rule is, go when the fine seems to go agaist natural justice (ie doesnt pass the pub test). I dont have a particularly good record, and I do pay all my fines and cop all the points with no complaint. To be fair to Service NSW and Revenue NSW, the people reviewing the fines aren't afforded flexibility to give leniencey. Its a politically hot topic, and needs some leadership from above!
As a former VicPol Constable, we were taught that the reason you pull someone over for a traffic offense is for safety, to stop the continuation of the offense, or because you found them committing the offense and you need to stop them and point the offence out to them so they don't do it again. I never understood how taking pictures of the offender and sending them a fine by mail weeks later has anything to do with safety. It's simply a revenue raising exercise. Some of the Speed Cameras in use by the TOG in Victoria would raise hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue in a matter of a couple of weeks. That was back in the early 1990s when they only had a few of them. I bet it's literally millions a month now.
1975 on The Comenarra Parkway and Pennant hills road was the first time I saw as you described. The car in front of me, on sensing the car besides him turning left on a green arrow, drove foreword against the red light , across Pennant hills road , always busy even in that long ago time. Screeching tyres (the old cross ply were still being used on many cars) frantic lanes changes he luckily made it across with just being clipped on the back. Since then I have seen the same thing about to happen so many times , I believe I have saved a few knuckle heads from serious prangs by Instantaneously hitting the horn and waking them up. Others have mentioned the dash cam videos we have all seen , this is an area where the mug coppers should be concentrating their efforts in stead of revenue raising for gummints.
i understand your predictiment i drove in a coach through a red light in alice springs there was one intersection after another and at the last minuite saw that the second light was red, i hit the anchors and stopped with the back wheels just over the line, but when the lights changed the traffic could not move because i had the intersection blocked so decided to clear the road but there was a traffic inspector right behind me. he pulled me over i explained my situation he asked if i had any pasengers on board when it was no he let me go
Great video, with many salient points. I live in QLD, and the one aspect of enforcement of road rules that absolutely drives (pardon the pun) me crazy, that relates in my opinion to your point on revenue, are the speed camera signs that state ‘Speed Camera…for Road Safety’. They quite clearly should read ‘Speed Camera…for Revenue Raising’, because as you point out, the driver passes through the camera zone at whatever their indiscretion is, and possibly continues their reckless and dangerous speeding, endangering the lives of everyone around them (tongue planted firmly in cheek), until such time as their infringement notice arrives in the mail a week or two later. Whereas most drivers speeding or otherwise, upon seeing a clearly marked police vehicle, tend to immediately check their speed. If road safety was genuinely the goal, more police visibility rather than sneaky, sometimes hidden speed cameras would lead to better outcomes in my opinion.
Went through a stop sighn once that was a give way sign and was changed ,i got off no traffic or any danger was an honest mistake .Glad you stopped in time John and all is ok.
I had a similar experience. I wore a suit and was polite. I started by saying that I was sorry for the offence. I said that in my 40 + years of driving I had driven about 1.25 million kilometers with only 2 very minor offences 20 years apart. I explained that the photo showed that I was in the middle of several cars when we assumed that we were outside the school zone, only to discover that were were not. I said that it was not intentional or malicious. It was an accident. I then asked for a decision to not record an offence. The judge was kind enough to decide to not record an offence. Regards, Geoff. Reeks
I actually got leniency. In fact you get it automatically if you know to apply for it AND have a ten year clean record. I did it online and the result came back within 5 minutes of my submission.
Apparently Automatic Leniency does not apply to; red light offences mobile phone offences high speed offences school zone offences other traffic offences where safety issues were identified. So that is why you were refused and mine went through immediately. I was just caught in a Revenue Camera.
Hi John, I have been driving in NSW for longer than you. I have actually applied for and granted leniency on two occassions. Once a speed camera coasting down the hill in the M1 Woolloomoloo tunnel and the second time turning right in the AM peak hour when it was not permitted at that time. I often turned right there in the evening and didn't realise it until half way through the turn and decied the safest was to keep going. I had both offences changed to a caution. I wrote a letter asking for leniency and the deciding factor was that it had been ten years between offences. (In the ACT it is five years.) So if you've haven't had an offence in over ten years, ask and you have a good chance of getting off. However, the Queensland Police Force are mongrels. I was pinged in Brisbane by a speed camera doing 64km/h in a 60 zone. Late Sunday afternoon, perfect weather, light traffic, good light. The letter arrived in the mail with all the references contained on payment methods, but no alternatives offered, except court appearance. After trawling through various Queensland government web sites I eventually found a postal address for the revenue department to write for leniency. The reply came back saying there is no provision for leniency in the legislation, so pay up or see you in court. Travelling to Brisbane to plead in front of a magistrate was not a reasonable option, so I paid up. Mongrels. AS John said, speed cameras do not prevent infringements, just record them for issuing fines later.
I did go to court in the uk. The road signs were very defective! The case was adjourned and strung out but we eventually won. Some of the court cases I saw were amazing, there was a dude who was known to the journalist next to me as a druggie, who just jumped in strangers passenger seats, ordered them to drive him round the city, then stole things from their glove box. And this was his daily behaviour.
Certainly agree with your closing points. Go to court for your first alleged offence; when your driving record is spotless. Further to that, if everybody who had an infringement notice went to court (even if only to enter a guilty plea), the courts would grind to a halt. And so they should, if the only reason for issuing infringement notices (for minor issues) is to raise revenue. Typical example (W.A.) hand held radar towards the end of an overtaking lane, pinging vehicles who exceed the speed limit when overtaking. Madness!
I had a similar story involving a red light camera. I had stopped at an intersection wanting for the lights to turn green to turn right. The lights turned green and I crept forward, only to realise that the green light was for motorists going straight through. There was a red arrow, so I wasn’t meant to turn right. I was part-way through the intersection and a tram was coming behind me, so I cautiously continued with my right turn to avoid making a bad situation even worse. I got a fine in the mail: 3 demerit points and a penalty of around $300. I objected, saying that I shouldn’t be fined the same as a person deliberately speeding and trying to beat the red light. I offered to accept a fine of $100 and 1 demerit point for my extenuating circumstances, as my culpability was at a far lower level. This reasonable request was refused. It’s clear a ‘One size fits all’ approach’. I then appealed to the Magistrates Court. I pointed out in my appeal that when you’re at a red light waiting to turn left or right and there is a red arrow, sometimes you don’t see it as you are focusing on the main lights in front of you, which are red. Then when your red arrow changes to green, sometimes you might not be aware of this, so someone behind you toots their horn, and then you proceed. This point and my previous points convinced the Prosecutors when they looked at my circumstances to withdraw their case the day before it was listed for court. PRO TIP: Don't waste your money on lawyer’s fees! On the day of the hearing, Magistrate are obviously far too busy to read a lengthy submission. It's not the High Court here John, just a meat factory! Do what I did. I made my case before the court date, by spending all that time and effort in preparing a submission for the prosecutor. Common sense prevailed and the Prosecutor decided to withdraw the matter before it went to court.
good point. I had a red light ticket that I was told by the QPS that I could easily get out of due to the circumstances, but I have a life and it would cost me more in $ and in time than what is worth
Well done John. Doesn't happen often. I've managed to get myself off in Vic. I did have a good argument due to poor signage. I only had to write to a judge. Apparently you get 1 or 2 every so often.
Interesting vid. I must say I was pinged in the tunnel coming from north on the pacific highway. It was late on a Sunday evening almost zero traffic in the tunnel. Momentarily rolled up in speed and click goes the camera. 8km over. My record and age is similar and I appealed to the NSW infringement for leniency and got off Scott free. So not always the court case.
I applied for and received leniency when I was 17 (yes it was approximately 30 years ago - I think it was 3 points and $330 odd dollars in fiscal penalty)- running a red light, cameras and all - "probably guilty as charged" your honour, camera included - Extenuating circumstances. (back in the day, there were also some justified penalties served for "conduct unbecoming" or something - technicalities snowballing and aggregates compounding on interstate runs - there were various rule variations back then)... thankfully not for quite a longtime - not yet 33years however. Then again, redlining the vehicle (any of them) in top gear is totally permitted,(if not encouraged) during a clear run on an unrestricted Autobahn (choose wisely and keep eyes peeled for variable limits), prison time seems more related to the intolerance of the judicial system than actual culpability of action..
I went through a red light on Victoria Rd, Ryde back around 1990. I honestly didn't see it and because of that, I'm just happy that I didn't have a prang but in any case, the fine arrived a week later and that's the first I knew of it. I was in that location at that time so (on my way to see Billy Connelly at the Opera House so I do remember it) and thus didn't argue and paid the fine. However, the notice contained a letter explaining how red light cameras work. It said that they take two pics, one the moment you cross the line and another about a second later (which you can see in the many dashcam clips on YT). The first pic proves you crossed the line which in itself, is not an offence as it could be that you simply misjudged the stop by a meter or so. The second pic tells them whether you stopped or kept on going and that's when they decide whether to send a fine or not. If you were stopped at a red light and mistakenly moved off and then realised it and stopped after a car length, it would've looked like you'd simply misjudged the stop and went a little way into the intersection. That being the case, why did you even get a fine in the first place?
I agree i can't see why they wouldn't assess this one and bin it. I've done the very same thing (in Victoria), set off the camera and never heard anything
Hey John my brother Glenn went to court dressed as Leo Wanka to oppose a revenue collecting fine for truck exhaust stacks a few inches too high while it was on a trailer. ie the prime mover added to height of the trailer it was on while it was being transported for repairs. He said the fine in court was worth every cent as he accepted it gracefully while one of his mates took the photos of him with LEO WANKA written on the back of his overalls fronted up. Both he and all the truckies in this country have had enough. No section 10 1a unfortunately even though the average truckie doesn't have access to the precise right angle measuring rulers that the rta inspector used to reach the top of the stacks from the road surface. Good on you for a good driving record. great show.
Hi john you are extremely lucky. I got snapped by a red light camera for crossing the front line of an intersection to allow and ambulance by. I asked for the photographic evidence and in the 2 pictures provided one had the ambulance and my vehicle the other just my rego plate. I was told that you can't challenge red light cameras under any circumstances
I have also fronted up to probably the same local court as yourself for a Section 10. I got the disqualification down to 1 month (45ish over) with no previous offenses. It was roadworks on the M1 down to 60 and a lapse in concentration meant I was still doing $1.00 when coming into it. Still paid the $2000 odd fine. On the flip side, another young gent was caught doing 25 over, no licence, unregistered vehicle and no seat belt. He fine got reduced to $500 and no further disqualification. I felt it was an injustice that my punishment from 10pm at night when there is actually no roadwork happening was worse than the other blokes. I guess when I show up sharply dressed in a suit compared the other other bloke who was in a ripped Kmart shirt, the judge thought maybe I could afford it.
A few years back, I got caught by the cameras under the Sydney Harbor bridge tunnel, on the down slope. I was speeding (prob about +15). I sent them the cheque with a letter attached telling / admitting /accepting responsibility, that yes, I remember speeding (no flash from the camera, just my observation / check of my speedo) and I gently used my bakes to bring the car back under the limit (which I did). The speeding was caused by the downhill of the road. A few weeks later, they sent the cheque back. It was NOT my first speeding fine, but it was a few years since the last.
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Give up driving
Be honest, you pulled out your sovereign citizen 'travelling' card and the judge bought it.
Seriously, the leniency people need their heads read in your case.
Around 20 years ago I was a regular donator (around $500 per annum) to the kids charity that the police run here in Queensland. I was stopped on a country road by a traffic cop who jumped out from behind a bush and got me for doing 83 in an 80 zone. No leniency was given or asked for, however I did mention to him that I’ll be using my charity donation to pay the fine if it goes through…and guess what….the prcik lodged it anyway. Needless to say that they have lost around $10k in donations over that time as I now refuse to help the cops out at all. Oh, it was the only speeding ticket I’ve ever had.
You should’ve asked for leniency
I call BS. Cops don’t fine you for doing 3 over
@@hectorshouse7348, shouldn’t have needed to mate….another jobsworth cop "just following orders".
@@captbadger3153, whatever mate.
So you were only "giving to the kids" coz you thought it would get you off a speeding fine? I think there is a word for that.
I drive a truck and was turning left at an intersection , as there were pedestrians walking in front of the truck the lights had turned orange then red and I was caught in no man’s land . I was forced to make the turn on red , as a result it triggered the cameras. I appealed to state revenue and was also rejected even though the photographic evidence was overwhelming. Feeling an injustice here, I took the matter to court ,the magistrate found in my favour and was awarded a section 10. Like you I formed a strong opinion of state revenue
Great job, well done.
About 10 years ago I had to collect an engineer from Sydney Airport, complete with his 35 kgs toolbox. As I arrived at the airport I saw him standing at the kerb, so I stopped in a pull-in space, just past the entrance, to allow him to get in. As I got out of the car a ranger appeared from nowhere and shouted something to me. I could not hear what he was saying because of the traffic and walked over to hear what he was saying. He told me that I could not stop where I was and that he was going to write me a ticket. I told him that I could not see anything saying I could not stop there and that I would move the car immediately. By this time the engineer was in the car and we left. Next day a ticket arrived in the post (thanks for the brilliant service Australia Post!) with a hefty fine, not for stopping or parking, but for failing to obey the instructions of a ranger.
All of my work colleagues told me that it was pointless to try to appeal the ticket, but I gave it a go anyway. I rang the number on the ticket and explained what had happened. I also said that I had obeyed with the ranger’s instructions and moved my car immediately. To my surprise I received a letter a few days later cancelling the fine because after speaking to the ranger he had admitted that I moved the car immediately. The letter also said that they would not issue me with a parking fine as the parking notice was obscured by another sign and thanking me for pointing this out to them,!
Had a similar experience at Karratha airport. Circling in and out of the airport car park waiting for a delayed flight. So thought I'll just stop on this gravel strip and run inside and see when they expect the bloody thing to land.
I went past the parking inspector who said nothing to me. I get out he was writing a ticket.. he refused to communicate with me until he had finished.. very rude.
No sign.. not obstructing emergency services.. not too near the building.. not on any garden.. all these things he tried to tell me I'd done wrong.
All he could tell me was that it was a reserve marked on councils website.. like who looks up councils website before parking a car for a few minutes.
I wrote a huge letter to council about it and how they had violated their own motto about educating the public as he saw me park and didn't even tell me then.. move on.
I told council I take it to court or they can drop it.
They dropped it.
As a former aircraft engineer at Sydney, I wish my toolbox only weighed 35kg. 🙂🇦🇺
Happy you got off. No harm done. No crash. No injuries. You never even crossed the junction. All good. I have a completely different view of how fair courts are regarding traffic offences. My father whilst assisting another motorist who had broken down got hit by a drunk driver that had left the road. The other guy whose car was broken down, lost his legs. My dad spent 6 weeks in traction. Damaged legs and back. And had continuous back pain the remainder of his life. The drunk got off with a fine. My mother on the way to work was killed in a head on car crash. The van that hit her was on her side of the road. The driver of which had multiple driving offenses against his name. Hit her at a time when he should have already clocked on at work miles away. So was running late. Come to your own conclusions. But got off with no offense recorded. Having killed someone. Just last week I was driving along quite legally. When bang a car hit me from the side. Unregistered car. No Insurance. A young bloke had done a U turn straight into me. Police don't want to know. Non injury traffic accident. Yet the car wasn't registered. Isn't that an offense. And now my insurance is playing hard ball about what they will pay for. When none of it was my fault. So am I enamoured about how fair and wonderful our Police and justice system are. Not in the least.
This video is way more useful than every single piece of "Is it legal to...?" and "Is it illegal to...?" clickbaity horseshit produced by Drive and CarExpert combined. Congrats on the win, John.
Thanks very much, Tone.
Drive yes, car expert no. Paul at car expert is one of the only decent car journos we have in Australia.
I applied for a leniency review for an 80 in a 60 speeding fine and it was granted so it can happen. In my favour was a 10 year clean driving record and the infringement wasn’t in a school zone.
@@dansearle7024 CE itself is one of the better automotive sites out there and I appreciate a lot of the content they put out, but their recent series of "Is it legal?" articles have cheapened the site just a tad. Honest personal opinion.
@@AutoExpertJC I think you had a fair magistrate on the day that took your prior exemplary record into consideration. Thanks all the same for the tips about section 10 and just to say nothing when a police officer puts words into your mouth saying Did you realise you went through a red light.
spot on, ATM on wheels. It drives me nuts when you cop a fine for 3klms over a 100klm limit on a road that presents the best possoble conditions for driving.
Yes, agreed mate. At the same time, people who've been disqualified for 10 years seem to drive whenever they want...
@@kenwilliams3279 road conditions, so on a freeway that you'd be doing 100mph in the UK.
@@kenwilliams3279 would it be prudent to go 100 km/h on a motorway when it is heavily raining and you can barely see the car in front of you? After all, the sign does say 100 km/h on it and you wouldn't want to be charged with impeding traffic on a busy motorway? Fact of the matter is distance between vehicles and paying attention to the road is what saves lives, not merely speed. Germany doesn't have a speed limit for much of their motorways and yet they have a much lower fatality rate than Australia. Why is that?
@j2simpso Possibly because the people causing the killings on our roads now have never been told about Hitler, Stalin or Bin chicken Laden and don't know the repercussions of being a c#%t.
In other words, we have a lot of brain dead, entitled mother lover's on our roads who think and act just like the fore mentioned and get away with it.
@@j2simpso Probably because the Autobahn has dual lanes and everyone drives to their comfort level without having to overtake on the wrong side of the road.
A day in court is definitely a life-affirming experience. It forces you to confront the reality of the lives of many people out there while you wait for your turn.
True, Andrew. It does.
Another interesting court day is domestic violence day. In my line of work, I had to sit through one of those days at Campbelltown court....whoah!!
Over forty years ago I got off a parking fine, somewhat like John I was guilty as charged.
I parked on a street near a shopping centre the day before Mother's day contrary to a no parking sign that read no parking in the hours I was there. When I got the fine in the mail I noticed that the cop had written on the fine that the sign had read no parking x hours Monday to Friday, no mention of Saturday. Aha, a loop hole, I when to court, and pleaded not guilty, and told the magistrate that the date of the offence was on a Saturday, they checked the calendar and the case was dismissed. The magistrate muttered that maybe the police should read the signs properly. :)
They never paid attention at school, so what can you expect from them? Why do you think they became police, engineering was too boring easy for them?
#You'reAcop?ShouldHavePaidAttentionAtSchool
Great story John.
I got a low level revenue camera fine in NSW some years ago and the paperwork that came with it really reflected what it was about. The cheesy "PAY NOW" written all over it made it look more like a cash grab than any other bill I've received in my life.
And they wonder why people have a negative view of over-zealous enforcement of minor traffic offences...
Its not just about the money mate. Can you imagine the strain on the system if every man an his dog was encouraged to apply for leniency and take every matter to court?
Yes road $aftey is all about $tate revenue $treams. When govt has a budget revenue expectation it has nothing to do with safety.
It's a money-making machine.
@@AutoExpertJC that only punishes the poor as a fine is at least 50% of a poor person's pay
Yeah tell that to the families of the dead in the Hunter Valley crash. There’s a reason fines and motivation to drive safely exist.
@@whomcares3438 People who don't care will not care, fines large or small won't make a difference...
@@whomcares3438 you're confused
As a child in the USA in the 1960s, the high school driver ed program showed films of bodies being removed from accident cars. To say this made an "impact" on our minds is understatement.
Yep, In Australia I remember these videos at school in the 80's... it still is in my memory! 😂
About ten years ago, I was travelling to work on my motorcycle (something I didn't usually do) when I tripped a speed camera on James Ruse drive just before the M4. I was travelling from my home in Windsor. I had planned to use the bike in stead of the train on two days as I was covering for one of my security guards just before Christmas( I was the supervisor of the site we worked at).
I was oblivious to the camera fine at the time. The next day, apparently, I was pinned again for the same thing. I was allegedly doing 80 in a 70 zone.
At the time I was just moving with what little traffic was on the road at that time of the morning. I received the fines about one month after the actual date of the act.
What bugged me the most about these fines is the time it took to arrive at my house. When you get pulled over by the police, you instantly look at your speed and you have an idea whether you were actually guilty. This acts as a motivation to be more aware of your speed and the speed limit you are travelling through.
Getting the fines one month later made me feel like I was taking part in revenue raising. The part of the 4 lane highway I was trapped at had constantly changing speeds and just before the camera was a 90 zone.
I took it court. I was presented with a folder by the prosecution which contained the said camera's maintenance schedule as well as pictures of me riding down the road.
When asked by the Magistrate how fast did I think I was going, I answered "I have no idea". I said all I could attest to was I was riding safely. Having received the fines so long after the incident I had no clue as to the speed I was travelling or, indeed, that I had been pinged by the camera.
My record was similar to John's and I was issued a Section 10.
One thing different was I still lost all of my points (double demerits were in force at the time). The State authorities said they had proved their case so their penalty still stood. I didn't have to pay the fine but I had to pay court costs (about $50).
"...stop fighting when you win..."
I heard another version of that, "If you're winning shut up".
In a similar vein, I like the old quote attributed to Napoleon: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake".
Well done John!
I'm a criminal lawyer in UK. The best words I can hear from the judge is that they don't want to hear from me (or read my submissions). That means I've won. If the judge wants to find against me, he has to be seen to be hearing from me (or reading my stuff).
Decent judges who use their powers of discretion as needed and as intended are so important in democratic societies. For all the issues in this country, being able to talk to a competent real person in the judiciary when shit hits the fan is almost all their is separating this country from a 3rd rate dictatorship.
Agreed. I saw the magistrate as a much needed check between me and rampant revenue raising.
You mean the same ones who give lenient sentences to violent criminals and repeat offenders who go on to do irreversible harm?
Awesome video! I just wished this had come out about an year ago. I would have helped me keep my NZ DL record clean. Long story short I bought a car from a seller in another city and go pulled over for going above the speed limit maybe 300 meters after entering an intersection.
I had 70Km/h limit in my mind because that's what it was before that intersection but as I pulled out of the petrol station after a quick stop for a snack, that stretch of road was now 50Km/h. It was an honest mistake and as soon as I saw the police lights on the opposite lane I knew it was for me. I pulled over so quickly that I had already stopped when I saw the police officer drive past me on the other side and then do an U-turn. I explained all this to him and he still gave me a ticket. When I questioned him about why not just give me warning and send me on my merry way, he said "If you get pulled over, you get a ticket". That was it, he couldn't have made it any clearer that road safety was not the focus here.
Earlier that day I flew from Wellington to Nelson to buy a car and was going to do the long drive through Lewis Pass in order to get back to Picton to jump on the ferry back to Welly. The main roads between Nelson and Blenheim were blocked due damage cause by heavy storm a week prior.
His words stuck with me. It was an honest mistake, maybe I missed the 50Km/h sign as I entered this new stretch of road. After all it was a city I had never been to before. I complied, as soon as I saw his lights I thought "did I really just go a bit too fast? I'll pull over then". I answered all his questions respectfully. He asked me what was the reason for speeding and I said I didn't realise I was speeding and I apologised for it if I did. Car was mine and in my name. My records were up to date in the system and my home address matched. I had no fines for over 10 years. The whole ordeal just left me with a sour taste in my mouth about police in general in New Zealand. Still remember about 18 years ago when I came to this country for the first time, that I got pulled over and the officer then explained what I had done wrong and still let me go. He said he'd keep an on out for me in case I did it again, and that he wouldn't let me leave without a fine if it happened again. He educated me and he did not have to reach into my wallet to do it.
I heard people complain that it is now all a cash grab operation and I didn't agree. For years I didn't believe it. Always thought they must have done something utterly wrong and they deserved getting a ticket. I guess I was wrong. I guess I should have contested it. I don't think this was fair and now I can't do anything about it. I hit the PAY NOW button and moved on.
Thank you for the enlightenment moment John... =)
Where I grew up, you are required to display a current tax disc on the windscreen of your car. Walking with Dad as a kid through the village he idly commented that ever car parked on the stretch from the green to the police station had an out of date tax disc. He mentioned this to a passing policeman. "Mind your business" was the curt reply. So it was ok for the cops to drive without paying car tax on their private cars. But I'm sure that policeman would have had no problem ticketing a car he didn't recognise further up the village streets ....
Great, but did the magistrate screw your submission up and throw it across the court to the bin? Yessss
I wish he had... but: his fat cave, his rules...
I reckon he read it for sure later with his afternoon coffee, everyone in the Prosecutors office would have had a read too. All would have been impressed and recognised the effort you put into it, he knew it when you handed it up, you got credit for giving a shit and being PREPARED. 👏💪
Well done John after all you have done for road safety. Justice served!
Even if that wasn't considered mate...
John, I wish you could do some videos where you interview people, or chair a panel discussion about various subjects, with experts, regulators, etc. You cut through the BS like no other journalist in the whole world and have the knack of making a complex idea or situation digestable and understandable by regular people. Great video.
great recounting of your experience. noteworthy is that yes, you may have lost 3 points and copped 454 dollar fine, but an unknown hidden cost is the 40 months it takes to reclaim your third party insurance premium discount, which can amount to an additional $600 dollars over that time. Frank
Good point, Frank. I hadn't considered that knock-on cost.
Excellent advice John! Like you I take pride in my long term, 30+years, years clean driving license (and that last time was a minor and honest mistake) . I try hard to maintain my good record because doing so makes the road safer for everyone. So if I ever get a fine, it will be an honest error, and having now seen this video, I will seek leniency. Thank you Sir! Your advice is highly valued!
The prosecutor should have dropped the case and it should never have gone to the court. This proves it that its a revenue raising exercise and nothing to do with road safety. Had John just driven off and not stopped then yes he should have been fined then.
The prosecutor would know absolutely nothing about that matter until it was mentioned. It then falls on the rms if it goes to a hearing.
Well done John. My approach in court was far more reckless, arguing that it wasn't for me to decide my guilt/innocence and this was the magistrate's sole "raison d'etre". DPP said for the plea to be entered as not guilty. Asked for the record to show that the DPP's comment was presumptuous. Session was stood down for a later hearing. The protection officer on duty said I was the most entertaining case all day :-) Received a letter in the mail a week later telling me my fine was dismissed on "technical grounds".
A lawyer friend told me later that this was code for getting rid of minor infringements where the cost recovery wasn't worth it - all about the citizens being revenue ATMs as you pointed out.
Coincidentally, never seen a speed camera infringement in the mail since.
Yes John I can relate to a seniors moment. Done the same at a set of lights whilst heading out west via the blue mountains for work at an unfamiliar intersection at 6am. Got one car length then realised it was a green arrow. No traffic so proceeded safely as I couldnt reverse and didnt want to remain there until traffic did arrive. On another point the cops really need to clamp down on wankers that tailgate and idiots that remain in the right lane after overtaking.
Agreed Mark. It's easy to fuck up in minor ways, and enforcement priorities are broken.
Tailgating is my pet hate, multiple experiences of getting rear-ended, even cars totalled...
Aggressively overtaking on the right lane, after they've prevented you from changing lanes AND freeing the left one for them is another one!
As a retired police officer, I always advised anyone that I ticketed to go to court. I too, received two citations once when still sworn and once after I retired. Both times I attended court and the results were positive. ALWAYS go to court.
Thats how most states in the USA got rid of speed cameras. Everyone opted to go to court that was pingged speeding. Clogged up the court system massively. The backlog was so huge they had to turn the cameras off. Many government departments had loans or fees to pay to have the cameras and have them maintained even though they were not being used. It was deemed financially unviable to have them outside of a patrol car situation and they got rid of most of them. People seen them for what they were, speed cameras not safety cameras.
Only corporations go to court
You're a wanker for giving people tickets in the first place.
A mate of mine had a cop on a motorcycle pull out in front of him once, years ago. He ran over him. They tried everything to charge my mate for the crash but witnesses all said the cop was at fault. Everywhere he went from that day, he had a cop behind him, until he sold the car
yep this is the way... The force is a giant mob like structure, they will tighten a net around you and act like your a murderer. Been there done that, i always thought i could trust the police.... yeah... no.
Pity the subsequent owners of that shit magnet rego!
cool story bro.. you should know that police can pull the vehicle rego details for any name and/or address, so if they really wanted to harass your mate, he would have to move interstate.
If he had installed a rear camera on that car, there would have been some very interesting long term footage...
Old wives tail from years ago
I’m off to court at the end of this month. Your vlog has validated my submission approach. I thought I may have over egged the pudding but I am feeling more comfortable thanks to you. Much appreciated. Regards Lin
Informative and well presented video. Thank you from a slightly corrupt South Africa!
Well done on the outcome; congratulations John! It's a bit different in WA, but some excellent tips that apply to driving anywhere... thanks!
EVERY person should take these cases to court. It would clog up their system and they'd soon change the law although probably to remove your right to go to court.
Thank you John, excellent story telling and you really should have been a lawyer! Been enjoying your UA-cam content for a few years now - I keep coming back.
Thank you very much. I appreciate you watching.
Like yourself John, my driving licence matters (not a motoring journalist but a truck driver). Going back about 10 years, I was about my job (multi-drop HR truck in Sydney) and I turned right at a set of traffic lights 4 minutes before the 9:00am curfew ended - it was a regular run but on this occasion I was a bit early and I wasn't watching the clock. I got pulled by the HWP who issued a ticket and because I've got a national HVDL the penalties double. I got off the penalties because my licence was clean, but what left a sour taste was that the NSW HWP was there at 8:54am at all.
From Adelaide back to Victoria, there was one town with a lower speed limit than the others on the highway (60km/h vs 80km/h or something similar). After 4 or 5 towns slowing to 80km/h, I was pulled up by SA highway patrol. When he told me I was speeding I thought he was joking. Fair enough, all the other towns slow to 80km/h, but this one just happens to be 60km/h. The towns all seemed similar, with no reason for the lower speed limit, and I told him this. It came across as a scam, but suffice to say I paid attention from then on, in case of any more SA traffic department trickery.
The "system" screws the average person at the end of the day there is less money in your pocket. However watching "dash cam type videos" on youtube shows lunatics speeding through red lights , four wheels jives driving over footpaths and physical centre islands and then through red lights on the wrong side of the road seemingly immune to being caught.
the difference with those types is that they know which intersections have camera's or they are driving cars with stolen plates, so don't care if their plate gets recorded..
As a 78 yr old driver I can tell you John that your little lapse of concentration is the first of an ever increasing number of lapses as you age, so hopefully you learned from this and work actively to constantly evaluate your behaviour, reactions etc and adjust your behaviour accordingly. I've had to do this, coming up with refreshment strategies, planning trips carefully etc. so far successfully, fingers crossed.
Thanks for your clear detailed explanation John .
I was sat in the right turn lane in my work vehicle and someone drove into the rear of the van. This in turn pushed me over the line and the fine camera functioned.
When the light turned Green we both pulled over and called police as we were now on an on-ramp to the free way and exchanged information and got a police report number. His vehicle need to be towed as the radiator was damaged.
About two weeks later I received a letter informing me of the fine and a picture of me over the line.
Sent of the paperwork and an explanation of the events.
No, still ordered to pay the fine.
So took it too court, 7 months later I ended up in court. 2-3min and I was given a pass and a clean licence.
To be fair the proses up until that point was relatively easy.
The hardest part was filing for costs (I didn’t use a lawyer) reimbursement for my time was difficult to get back. Thankfully my company helped out and managed to work it all out with me. But it was by far the hardest thing to do with the whole process.
Great story John. I like the idea of bringing us the story but not being part of it. Years ago, I was pulled over 1 km from home for not wearing a seatbelt - and the copper mentioned that it was a dbl D weekend too. I explained that I was on my way to work, and reversing out the driveway I had to stop and unbuckle to move the wheelie bin. Anyway, he let me off with a warning, and to try to make good on that gesture, I sent a company wide email telling them about it, reinforcing the importance of seatbelts, and the safety they will be providing over the coming long weekend. I feel that was the least I could do for the leniency I received.
Travelling from Sydney to Batemans bay I noticed that not only did the speed limit change for no reason from a 100 to 80 to 90 to 80 etc. All the time , my 5 year old sat.nav. also constantly gave a different speed limit.
This means they change it around on a consistent basis to catch the unsuspecting motorist that missed one of their signs to create revenue.
On the other hand, on the way back I got done on ED for going 88 in a 80 zone by a camera, asked for a revue, stating I was following traffic on a for me unfermilliar road, not aware of the speed limit, as it was a split 2 lane road just like a freeway.
Having no points after driving for 30 years must have weighed in, as they let me off .
Thanks for your video John, I found it very helpful and my circumstances here in Brisbane are very similar to yours. A good mate of mine recommended I watch this video (btw my mate's opinion of you was less than favourable, I believe due to the small portion of what he had viewed ie. your "wacky out there" sales pitch style at the beginning of your clips). My driving record is very important to me and prior to this incident, in the past decade (at least) or two, my driving history show's 1 blemish from February this year (2023) when my 15 year old daughter decided to place her seatbelt under her left arm in the passenger seat, during a drive up the M1 after a day at Wet'n Wild (obviously without my knowledge until after the fact). I have also recently been through a civil court battle (I instigated), self representing in the Federal Circuit Court of Australia, so I am now quite well versed in Court procedures and etiquette..........before watching your clip, I was probably edging towards just paying the fine, but now maybe you have supplied me with another option and some confidence in the possible outcome - thank you for making the effort to share your experience with the rest of Australia.
22:52 Same thing happened to me - many moons ago my daughter stopped breathing and was taken by ambulance with my wife to Westmead hospital, I followed them in my car and got a speeding fine (under 15 km at the time). I was young and explained the situation so what did they do, took some 20 minutes to issue me a fine. This happened at 3am with only myself and the ambulance on the road.
Absolute gem of a video! You’re a ‘Cool Dude’ John - keep posting!
JC, truly some of your best work.
In Danistan it’s called section 76, Sentencing Act. Proven and dismissed. Regularly used by people with no prior convictions. If you hold recent prior convictions (within the last 10 years), good luck. If you hold none, usually minor offending without mandatory sentences e.g. drink or drug driving, you’ll likely get the opportunity of section 76.
Points still count tho
About 14 -15 years ago now , I beat one of these exact things WITHOUT Court .
Got the " Love Letter " in the mail . Went to the Website , Purchased the Photos online ($20 from memory) as a reminder of the Day .
Thought about it for a Day and then submitted a Detailed analysis of events on the day , at the time . A Familiar intersection .
About a week later I received an E-mail that the matter was " Given Leniency in this instance " . Bureaucrat speak . Matter CLOSED .
Way back in the early 90’s my shit navigator says right turn here as we about to pass the street. There was no other cars on the road. The rear tyres let out the barest of squeals. Next thing I know there is a cop car racing up behind. I waited for them to put their lights on before pulling over. They asked why the tyres squealed. I explained that I had almost missed the turn. They then said they could have made the turn without squealing a wheel and perhaps my car wasn’t road worthy. I pointed out that they were driving a brand new cop car and I was driving a 15 year old kingswood with 400kg of DJ and lightning on board so their comparison was somewhat skewed. They gave up trying to get me to admit to anything and gave me a warning.
Judges are pretty awesome. Had a few hearings in the last year whereby some false accusations were made. Victoria Police is pretty much forced to act even in the complete absence of evidence. Saw two different judges and they both said the accusations were serious but they also realised there was no evidence. Used a lawyer for one hearing but he was useless. So self represented and the judge was prepared to show heaps of procedural leniency. From my experience they like you to be honest and humble. They have very little time for lawyers that fumble their words and get things wrong. It always helps to be prepared and know what outcomes you could expect. Leave the ego and attitude at home.
This is interesting in that I had a very similar traffic fine, however when I went to court, the Magistrate, having read my mitigating circumstances, advised me that by pleading guilty, her "hands were tied" and the points MUST stay! She waved the fine, but the points still stayed. Made me realize, I should have plead not guilty even though the camera clearly showed me in breach of the Law
Storytime: While on my L's on my bike back in 2020 I think, I was sent a fine in the mail for 71 in a 60 zone. It appeared the details were correct. It had the licence plate for my bike etc. However, I couldn't remember riding in that location that was given. I did my best to look up this location and Google Maps said it was in Sydney, I have never ridden in Sydney so that was odd. However, I thought well maybe I am just not finding this road name in the right location and had thought about just paying the fine. I didn't end up doing that. I got home ( I was out when I read the letter) anyway once home I found my way to the camera image (the better quality one) and saw that it couldn't have been me cause I couldn't even recognise the location. Also, it wasn't my bike and it wasn't me. I downloaded the photo, zoomed in on the number plate and was able to determine the actual plate number. So I called up to contest with my reasoning and the girl on the phone was great, she advised me to contest in writing so that's what I did and it was removed from me as the offender. It is always important to confirm whether or not you are actually the one committing the offence. Not just pay it cause it might seem too difficult. I could have ended up with money gone and points on my licence for something I didn't do. Letting someone else off the hook. This also would have done in my record that has been clean since I finished my red p suspension back in the day at 17, 31 at the time of the notice in the mail for the bike.
I had the same in Melbourne many years ago. I got a speeding fine in the mail, and found it odd as I didn't remember driving in that location before. The camera photo showed a completely different car & number plate to mine, but from memory the car was the same colour as mine. It was easy to clear up.
This information is useful (as you mentioned) if you have a pretty clean record.
One thing to note is that tickets never disappear from your record (even if 30 years back).
If you have numerous tickets (even if spaced apart), this is taken into account by the officer busting you and (b) it will be dragged up when fighting a ticket.
I used to be proud of my ticket free licence , very (over the top) law abiding stance then I got a really dumb ticket for my lights. It was only $30 back then (same as $80 - $100 these days probably) but that had ruined my perfect record. I accepted it, paid it but tried to follow the law precisely in the future.
I also got a ticket for proceeding a broken red light (at 4am with no traffic for about 10 minutes sitting there). I tried to pay it but that failed because the incompetent cop had written the wrong code on the ticket. I had to go visit the police. I went there, spoke to them, told them the story and they said to put it in writing and give it to them (which I did). This turned into 2 tickets now (with the correct codes for running a red light (same light, same time, same location, same vehicle) so that's 6 points. One was for proceeding a red light (i.e. driving past the line from a stop and keep on going (or same as what you did) and also failing to stop for a red (as if I didn't stop at all). Two tickets, 2 sper fines. NOTE: If the officer had written the ticket correctly in the first place, there would have been no sper fee.
I played russian roulette some more by asking the cops to explain why I got 2 tickets (playing with fire) as it financially hit me paying 2 tickets (both on my credit card as I had insufficient money , was in financial hardship at the time with a very limited income). Thankfully they decided to withdraw one of the tickets (many months later - still interest being charged and unable to pay off the credit card) and stated it was an "admin error". Another month later they finally sent a cheque for 1 of the tickets back to me. It took me about 5 months to pay off that initial fine (yeah, real problems with income at the time)
With that, and a ticket doing 2 KPH over the limit, a bolo (police information / opinion without any evidence) , there is no chance of ever fighting a ticket (even though these few tickets spanned over a period of 30 + years.
I do wish I would have challenged that initial red light ticket in court, gathered evidence that the lights were broken (wired the wrong way - In the control box they have a PLC *or similar* with sensors that plug in [traffic sensors to know if you are approaching / at the red light]. These were around the wrong way because when I approached , the light went red and stayed red. It thought I was in the side street. You wouldn't notice this problem during the day as there would be cars on both the main road and the side street).
Of course, now with the bolo (had for years), I am on the hitlist. With the auto plate readers you get pulled over a lot and the officer says, "You have been selected at random for a random breath test / drug test / vehicle inspection".. Ok, I don't drink alcohol, don't take illegal drugs so I comply , test negative, waste 5 - 15 minutes of my time and leave. It was happening daily for a while until they noticed the fixed cameras recording each time :D That's on the bolo as well :D
I wish I was as articulate as you, John. I appreciate your perspective on this.
Also in NSW there is the option for a Work and Development Order. You need to meet certain criteria, but if successful instead of paying the fine you can do a course, volunteer work, or similar, for x hours based on the fine amount.
I love this idea.
I had one recently where I was driving 8km UNDER the limit in a tunnel when the speed limit was suddenly varied down to 60km and I was booked on the camera.
I wanted to take it to court, but I ended up deciding the $150 fine wasn't worth losing a day over... Which I'm sure is the conclusion they wanted me to come to.
This is making me wish I'd contested the "failure to STOP" at a STOP sign fine I received a few years ago. I decided I couldn't afford to lose a case and probably would, but it would have been fun.
My defence would have had two parts. Firstly, I had stopped and I believe I did so far enough back from the line that I could see the entire road to my right but the cop's view of me was obscured by a hedge, which was the same colour as my car. More importantly I found that NZ legislation contained no definition of "stop" other than that a "stop" is a "complete stop". Without invoking Zeno's arrow I believed I could have argued that this is too subjective to be meaningful. For what duration must the vehicle make no observed movement and what duration of "stop" can a human perceive? Does it vary between humans? Is perception affected by whether a vehicle creeps very slowly to a possible stop, or stops like an F1 car achieving a 0.1 second pit stop. At what distance and viewing angle can a human perceive this? Does a reading of 0 on a monitored vehicle log constitute proof of a stop (even if the software has rounding) and so on. Oh what fun it might have been.
Dear Mr. Cadogan: In my 53 years of driving, I am not proud to say that I've gotten about 30 citations. With two exceptions, I went to court on each one. I won on ALL but one of them ( and there I got a reduced sentence). I always go to court unless I'm so obviously and egregiously guilty. Getting older has turned me into an ( almost) model driver, I've gotten no citations in the last decade.. You are quite right about the value of going to court prepared and in a respectful mien. That, alone, has served me well. Congratulations on your victory. If I lived in Oz, instead of 'merica, I'd ask for a copy of your pleading to the court. Others may be interested in it though. Your fan, Dennis Wolterding
After watching this video with interest ..i fronted traffic court about 2 weeks later where i had been pinged at a Red Light camera ..PAY NOW !!! even after i wrote and explained the circumstances..to no avail..PAY NOW OR PAY MORE !!! ..when my turn came i explained to the charming and open minded magistrate that the truck in front of me stalled / baulked across the intersection leaving me stranded until he found a gear or the ignition key and proceeded to exit ... also in my defense i had my brakes on ..lights illuminated in the 2 pictures taken by the camera.. He smiled at me and said "Well im certain this can happen to any of us at anytime and im willing to dismiss the offence ..the Police Prosecutor who was present also agreed and i was let go ..no warning no penalty..Thank goodness for logic and understanding of the court system!!! Yes PAY NOW OR ELSE ...GFY!!! Thank you Mr Cadogan for your advice...
John Cadogan this must be one of your best U Tube presentations , normally I think you are a full ship . You have proven me wrong I enjoyed your story telling kudos to you loved it immensely 🌟😎👏🎉
38:23 We ( my wife driving ) had a speeding issue in a 40 zone, when a fine arrived from REVENUE I saw red. Long story short we went to Court, her 50 years of clean driving nailed it, apart from saying there were NO kids anywhere and we entered the road between the RED flashing signage, it was short and sweet and worth the day out 🤩
I know a public bus driver who was booked by a Highway Patrol officer a few years ago for "Not stop at stop line at yellow arrow". Seriously, has any motorist, let alone a bus driver, ever been booked for that?!
The bus driver pleaded Not Guilty in court on the basis that because, like any careful driver of a heavy vehicle that's wider than the lane it occupies, he was frequently checking his external mirrors and didn't see the arrow change from green to yellow (it remained yellow a total of four seconds). When he noticed the arrow, he made a split-second assessment that it was safer to continue through the intersection on the yellow than brake heavily with unrestrained elderly passengers on board.
If there'd been a red light camera at that intersection it wouldn't have taken a shot. The police car's dashcam video, played in court, showed the bus's front wheels, which are at least 2m behind the front bumper, crossing the line as the red arrow lit up.
But the magistrate who, like the traffic cop, apparently had no experience driving a heavy vehicle, let alone a 13-tonne, 12.5m-long public bus, found the charge proven.
He refused even to consider a scanned page from the bus company's driver training manual stating that heavy braking should be avoided, because the page was identified in handwriting and not printing. He said that he might have had a different opinion if passengers had been standing in the aisle, but considered that unrestrained seated occupants wouldn't have been at risk if the driver had slammed on the brakes. Who needs seatbelts then?
The bottom line is that an ignorant lower-court verdict has lost Sydney yet another bus driver during a shortage that daily leaves dozens of shifts unfilled.
Job well done, Officer. Job well done, Your Honour.
Well done, mate.
Your account at 31:06 reminds me of the movie 'The Perfect Witness' with Aidan Quinn's character, who prepares for a trial and then has a similar pay-off to his preparation (I won't spoil a good film if you haven't seen it).
Fight the fight you believe to be right and do it with style. Congratulations, well done ! 😇
Candidly, I was considering that there'd be an engineering angle to the story. Happy for your positive outcome, and experience in court.
Did the Crown provide you with disclosure as required? They often don't in these matters.
The state has an obligation to prove every element of an alleged offence beyond reasonable doubt. I've always forced them to take me to court. I do it on principle.
I reckon that everyone should have the court experience as an observer. Sit through half a day of magistrates, district, and supreme court sessions. They can be anything from boring, exciting, and horrific. Highly recommended.
Correct the yellow or amber light is class as stop, and you can be booked for going through it..
A couple of years ago, I was initially pulled over and booked for going through an orange light..
Making a left-hand turn, the light was green right up to the time I approached the line, the last time I glanced at it, it was definitely green.
My only problem was that I was going too slow around the corner and in that time the light changed to amber, then bang I had the red and blue disco light flashing behind me.
Upon being pulled over the copper smartly stated that I went through an amber light, I argued the point over and over, but upon issuing me the fine, he f#%ked up and described that I went through a red light instead.
Fortunately, I had a witness in the car with me. Long and short, I won the case, it got thrown out of court but cost me a lot more than the potential fine, as it was adjourned 4 times, so time off work to fight it cost was way more, but for me it was the principle that I did not break the law..
Another time before that I was booked for going 4klms over on a 60 zone, I said to the cop you should be out catching real criminals instead of easy money grabbing, that one sure did go down too well.😂😅😂😅
Your comment about fairness is spot on. Unlike those who are measured on issuing revenue invoices or receiving revenue, magistrates are interested in fairness.
Not everyone/not many will have a clean driving record to rely on, but if the ticket is unfair the magistrate will hear it.
That especially applies to minor offences where the penalty is not fair, like compulsory suspension for minor speeding for provisional licence holders, and the subsequent thousands of dollars increase in insurance premiums.
Note it goes both ways, and if you're trying to fight based on an obscure technicality, it won't go well.
I totally agree with you that government treats motorists as ATM machines, it's all about the money and not much about just safety.
In saying in 1982 that I was booked for staying over the time limit in liverpool while I went to see the real estate agent.
I sent a letter to NSW revenue asking for leniacy and I was let off the fine.
Another incident I was booked for not fully stopping at a stop sign back in 1985 and wrote the NSW revenue, I was asked to attend an evening lecture about traffic and driving but I didn't have to pay the fine or lose any points
Thanks for the confession and advice John.
I have also found if you believe you were pinged incorrectly, you can write a clarifying letter to the police within the 28 day fine payment period requesting the offence be dropped. This can be useful where speed limit signs are obscured or misplaced as sometimes happens around road works.
In your case having stopped when you realised the error and not completing the turn (as long as you were not blocking traffic) would also be a saving grace because accidents involving stationary vehicles tend to be less severe.
Ultimately of course level 5 FSD is likely the answer in saving you from your brain fades.
FSD is certain to save fines, animals, pedestrians, other drivers, vehicles, and also a lot of street furniture.
My last fine was just over 2 years ago, I tried for leniency but failed even though the copper said you should be shown it . I put it down to the lack of funds the government was getting at the time due too the lockdown’s. My crime was. I was travelling on an expressway in a line of 5 cars (I was number 3) up ahead there was a hwy car with a car pulled over (lights on) so I moved into the inside lane to give clearance for the officer standing next to the driver’s door ( no other car in the line did this) unbeknownst to me there was another hwy car just up the road a bit . Next thing I know I’m being pulled over, he showed me the radar gun indicating that I was doing 110 kph and asked me if I had seen the other car with its lights on too which I replied yes that is why I changed lanes. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing with it being a dual lane road but apparently you still have to slow down, anyway he took my details went and did his checks and then returned and asked me whether I have ever had I fine because I’m not in the system, I told him I lost my license in 1989 and have not had one since. The copper then went on to tell me to write a letter and I should get off because of my good record, I asked him why don’t you just give me a caution? To which he claimed he couldn’t. Anyway I wrote the letter, it was denied because of the serious nature of the offence, from memory it was $574 plus 5 points.
I never thought about contesting it but after watching your video maybe I should of.😅
Very good summary of a common court experience. Written statement ✅️ 3 copies ✅️ lawyer ⛔️ (they overcomplicate matter)
I have been in court for driving matters 3 times, and received a section 10.1a for all 3.
My rule is, go when the fine seems to go agaist natural justice (ie doesnt pass the pub test). I dont have a particularly good record, and I do pay all my fines and cop all the points with no complaint.
To be fair to Service NSW and Revenue NSW, the people reviewing the fines aren't afforded flexibility to give leniencey. Its a politically hot topic, and needs some leadership from above!
I wish you could do ALL adverts .... especially on tv !! You cracked me up with that funny Manscape one 🤣😂🤣... it was fun to hear 😂
As a former VicPol Constable, we were taught that the reason you pull someone over for a traffic offense is for safety, to stop the continuation of the offense, or because you found them committing the offense and you need to stop them and point the offence out to them so they don't do it again. I never understood how taking pictures of the offender and sending them a fine by mail weeks later has anything to do with safety. It's simply a revenue raising exercise. Some of the Speed Cameras in use by the TOG in Victoria would raise hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue in a matter of a couple of weeks. That was back in the early 1990s when they only had a few of them. I bet it's literally millions a month now.
1975 on The Comenarra Parkway and Pennant hills road was the first time I saw as you described.
The car in front of me, on sensing the car besides him turning left on a green arrow, drove foreword against the red light , across Pennant hills road , always busy even in that long ago time. Screeching tyres (the old cross ply were still being used on many cars) frantic lanes changes he luckily made it across with just being clipped on the back.
Since then I have seen the same thing about to happen so many times , I believe I have saved a few knuckle heads from serious prangs by Instantaneously hitting the horn and waking them up.
Others have mentioned the dash cam videos we have all seen , this is an area where the mug coppers should be concentrating their efforts in stead of revenue raising for gummints.
I LOVE your candor.
In jolly old Dantoria Vicroads records the demerit points even if you get a S10 in court, but you avoid the fine.
i understand your predictiment i drove in a coach through a red light in alice springs there was one intersection after another and at the last minuite saw that the second light was red, i hit the anchors and stopped with the back wheels just over the line, but when the lights changed the traffic could not move because i had the intersection blocked so decided to clear the road but there was a traffic inspector right behind me. he pulled me over i explained my situation he asked if i had any pasengers on board when it was no he let me go
Great video, with many salient points. I live in QLD, and the one aspect of enforcement of road rules that absolutely drives (pardon the pun) me crazy, that relates in my opinion to your point on revenue, are the speed camera signs that state ‘Speed Camera…for Road Safety’. They quite clearly should read ‘Speed Camera…for Revenue Raising’, because as you point out, the driver passes through the camera zone at whatever their indiscretion is, and possibly continues their reckless and dangerous speeding, endangering the lives of everyone around them (tongue planted firmly in cheek), until such time as their infringement notice arrives in the mail a week or two later. Whereas most drivers speeding or otherwise, upon seeing a clearly marked police vehicle, tend to immediately check their speed. If road safety was genuinely the goal, more police visibility rather than sneaky, sometimes hidden speed cameras would lead to better outcomes in my opinion.
Thanks John for your recent heads up on the excellent movie Good Night and Good Luck which aired on SBS World Movies !
Thanks, I'll have to look it up.
Went through a stop sighn once that was a give way sign and was changed ,i got off no traffic or any danger was an honest mistake .Glad you stopped in time John and all is ok.
I had a similar experience. I wore a suit and was polite. I started by saying that I was sorry for the offence. I said that in my 40 + years of driving I had driven about 1.25 million kilometers with only 2 very minor offences 20 years apart. I explained that the photo showed that I was in the middle of several cars when we assumed that we were outside the school zone, only to discover that were were not. I said that it was not intentional or malicious. It was an accident. I then asked for a decision to not record an offence. The judge was kind enough to decide to not record an offence.
Regards,
Geoff. Reeks
I actually got leniency. In fact you get it automatically if you know to apply for it AND have a ten year clean record. I did it online and the result came back within 5 minutes of my submission.
Apparently Automatic Leniency does not apply to;
red light offences
mobile phone offences
high speed offences
school zone offences
other traffic offences where safety issues were identified.
So that is why you were refused and mine went through immediately. I was just caught in a Revenue Camera.
Hi John, I have been driving in NSW for longer than you. I have actually applied for and granted leniency on two occassions. Once a speed camera coasting down the hill in the M1 Woolloomoloo tunnel and the second time turning right in the AM peak hour when it was not permitted at that time. I often turned right there in the evening and didn't realise it until half way through the turn and decied the safest was to keep going.
I had both offences changed to a caution. I wrote a letter asking for leniency and the deciding factor was that it had been ten years between offences. (In the ACT it is five years.) So if you've haven't had an offence in over ten years, ask and you have a good chance of getting off.
However, the Queensland Police Force are mongrels.
I was pinged in Brisbane by a speed camera doing 64km/h in a 60 zone. Late Sunday afternoon, perfect weather, light traffic, good light. The letter arrived in the mail with all the references contained on payment methods, but no alternatives offered, except court appearance. After trawling through various Queensland government web sites I eventually found a postal address for the revenue department to write for leniency. The reply came back saying there is no provision for leniency in the legislation, so pay up or see you in court. Travelling to Brisbane to plead in front of a magistrate was not a reasonable option, so I paid up. Mongrels.
AS John said, speed cameras do not prevent infringements, just record them for issuing fines later.
I appied for leniency. They wrote back claiming leniency was not possible for red light offences.
I did go to court in the uk. The road signs were very defective! The case was adjourned and strung out but we eventually won.
Some of the court cases I saw were amazing, there was a dude who was known to the journalist next to me as a druggie, who just jumped in strangers passenger seats, ordered them to drive him round the city, then stole things from their glove box. And this was his daily behaviour.
Certainly agree with your closing points. Go to court for your first alleged offence; when your driving record is spotless. Further to that, if everybody who had an infringement notice went to court (even if only to enter a guilty plea), the courts would grind to a halt. And so they should, if the only reason for issuing infringement notices (for minor issues) is to raise revenue. Typical example (W.A.) hand held radar towards the end of an overtaking lane, pinging vehicles who exceed the speed limit when overtaking. Madness!
one of your best John.
I had a similar story involving a red light camera.
I had stopped at an intersection wanting for the lights to turn green to turn right.
The lights turned green and I crept forward, only to realise that the green light was for motorists going straight through. There was a red arrow, so I wasn’t meant to turn right.
I was part-way through the intersection and a tram was coming behind me, so I cautiously continued with my right turn to avoid making a bad situation even worse.
I got a fine in the mail: 3 demerit points and a penalty of around $300.
I objected, saying that I shouldn’t be fined the same as a person deliberately speeding and trying to beat the red light.
I offered to accept a fine of $100 and 1 demerit point for my extenuating circumstances, as my culpability was at a far lower level. This reasonable request was refused. It’s clear a ‘One size fits all’ approach’.
I then appealed to the Magistrates Court.
I pointed out in my appeal that when you’re at a red light waiting to turn left or right and there is a red arrow, sometimes you don’t see it as you are focusing on the main lights in front of you, which are red. Then when your red arrow changes to green, sometimes you might not be aware of this, so someone behind you toots their horn, and then you proceed.
This point and my previous points convinced the Prosecutors when they looked at my circumstances to withdraw their case the day before it was listed for court.
PRO TIP:
Don't waste your money on lawyer’s fees!
On the day of the hearing, Magistrate are obviously far too busy to read a lengthy submission. It's not the High Court here John, just a meat factory!
Do what I did. I made my case before the court date, by spending all that time and effort in preparing a submission for the prosecutor.
Common sense prevailed and the Prosecutor decided to withdraw the matter before it went to court.
Nice result John. Did the introduction section in your summary happen to mention that you get new cars cheap?
very good as usual.
Thank you very much, Andrew. All the best.
good point. I had a red light ticket that I was told by the QPS that I could easily get out of due to the circumstances, but I have a life and it would cost me more in $ and in time than what is worth
Fantastic advice. I'm now emboldened to go to court. Thanks.
Well done John.
Doesn't happen often.
I've managed to get myself off in Vic.
I did have a good argument due to poor signage. I only had to write to a judge. Apparently you get 1 or 2 every so often.
Interesting vid. I must say I was pinged in the tunnel coming from north on the pacific highway. It was late on a Sunday evening almost zero traffic in the tunnel. Momentarily rolled up in speed and click goes the camera. 8km over. My record and age is similar and I appealed to the NSW infringement for leniency and got off Scott free. So not always the court case.
I applied for and received leniency when I was 17 (yes it was approximately 30 years ago - I think it was 3 points and $330 odd dollars in fiscal penalty)- running a red light, cameras and all - "probably guilty as charged" your honour, camera included - Extenuating circumstances.
(back in the day, there were also some justified penalties served for "conduct unbecoming" or something - technicalities snowballing and aggregates compounding on interstate runs - there were various rule variations back then)... thankfully not for quite a longtime - not yet 33years however. Then again, redlining the vehicle (any of them) in top gear is totally permitted,(if not encouraged) during a clear run on an unrestricted Autobahn (choose wisely and keep eyes peeled for variable limits), prison time seems more related to the intolerance of the judicial system than actual culpability of action..
I went through a red light on Victoria Rd, Ryde back around 1990. I honestly didn't see it and because of that, I'm just happy that I didn't have a prang but in any case, the fine arrived a week later and that's the first I knew of it. I was in that location at that time so (on my way to see Billy Connelly at the Opera House so I do remember it) and thus didn't argue and paid the fine. However, the notice contained a letter explaining how red light cameras work. It said that they take two pics, one the moment you cross the line and another about a second later (which you can see in the many dashcam clips on YT). The first pic proves you crossed the line which in itself, is not an offence as it could be that you simply misjudged the stop by a meter or so. The second pic tells them whether you stopped or kept on going and that's when they decide whether to send a fine or not. If you were stopped at a red light and mistakenly moved off and then realised it and stopped after a car length, it would've looked like you'd simply misjudged the stop and went a little way into the intersection. That being the case, why did you even get a fine in the first place?
I agree i can't see why they wouldn't assess this one and bin it. I've done the very same thing (in Victoria), set off the camera and never heard anything
Hey John my brother Glenn went to court dressed as Leo Wanka to oppose a revenue collecting fine for truck exhaust stacks a few inches too high while it was on a trailer. ie the prime mover added to height of the trailer it was on while it was being transported for repairs. He said the fine in court was worth every cent as he accepted it gracefully while one of his mates took the photos of him with LEO WANKA written on the back of his overalls fronted up. Both he and all the truckies in this country have had enough. No section 10 1a unfortunately even though the average truckie doesn't have access to the precise right angle measuring rulers that the rta inspector used to reach the top of the stacks from the road surface. Good on you for a good driving record. great show.
Amber (orange) doesn't always mean stop John. If it's unsafe to stop you are permitted to proceed through the intersection.
Hi john you are extremely lucky. I got snapped by a red light camera for crossing the front line of an intersection to allow and ambulance by. I asked for the photographic evidence and in the 2 pictures provided one had the ambulance and my vehicle the other just my rego plate. I was told that you can't challenge red light cameras under any circumstances
Nice video mate, thanks
I have also fronted up to probably the same local court as yourself for a Section 10. I got the disqualification down to 1 month (45ish over) with no previous offenses. It was roadworks on the M1 down to 60 and a lapse in concentration meant I was still doing $1.00 when coming into it. Still paid the $2000 odd fine.
On the flip side, another young gent was caught doing 25 over, no licence, unregistered vehicle and no seat belt. He fine got reduced to $500 and no further disqualification.
I felt it was an injustice that my punishment from 10pm at night when there is actually no roadwork happening was worse than the other blokes. I guess when I show up sharply dressed in a suit compared the other other bloke who was in a ripped Kmart shirt, the judge thought maybe I could afford it.
Dont forget your greenslip goes up , insurance goes up , you also take up one of your lives on your licence so its not just the one initial cost
A few years back, I got caught by the cameras under the Sydney Harbor bridge tunnel, on the down slope. I was speeding (prob about +15). I sent them the cheque with a letter attached telling / admitting /accepting responsibility, that yes, I remember speeding (no flash from the camera, just my observation / check of my speedo) and I gently used my bakes to bring the car back under the limit (which I did). The speeding was caused by the downhill of the road. A few weeks later, they sent the cheque back. It was NOT my first speeding fine, but it was a few years since the last.