I'm in love with the Quiet Spec Tide/Phantatog version of Treva Tide. Now that you've played around a bit with the Orb version, I'd love to hear your thoughts regarding the two different versions. Do you find one to be better than the other? Is a CotH/RotW split the best option, or is 3+ RotW preferred? Is Mongrel preferred over Phantatog? Are Moxes necessary to the deck? They seem useful for pushing out t1 meddling mages and familiars but also bad to draw into at any point later than turn one. Would love to know your thoughts.
You and me both! I also love the Tide/Phantatog version. Basically after playing a ton of matches with it, I kept feeling like I needed more UMPH from my creatures. I would hold the fort long enough to get the Tide combo executed in one of its many forms. But then I couldn't close the match. If the wurms get answered, I'd be trying to win with a 1/2 Tog or a 2/2 Mage. There were enough times where my opponent crept back in and won after losing 4-5 lands that I realized I needed a tad more power in the deck. Winter Orb is of course easier to pull off than a Tide + ___ combo. Winter Orb is pretty dang good against a lot of the scary decks in the format: Replenish, Enchantress, WU Control, and WB Control. Replenish can land the Tide combo more easily and often quicker than me, so I needed something else for that matchup. Winter Orb also requires enablers/helpers (Gush, Undiscovered Paradise, Mox Diamond) that are probably just better cards overall than Tide's enablers (Phantatog, Stifle, Ray of Revelation). Lastly, and probably the straw that broke my back, is that by switching to Winter Orb I could switch from Phantatog back to Wild Mongrel and had a couple more slots to play with which allowed me to squeeze in Call of the Herd. I really value Call for it's help in control matches, burn too, and simply adding power to the deck. Regarding Call vs. Roar, I see them as being different entities for the deck. I generally don't want to draw Roar (although the Familiar and Mongrel provide back-stops in case I do draw it) and just want to Quiet Spec for it. While I would generally love to draw Call because it's card advantage by itself. And I don't want to Quiet Spec for it because it's not impactful as just a 3/3 from the yard without having already given me value from being cast from hand. I agree that Mox may or may not be perfect for the deck. It helps keep my mana flowing even while an Orb is in play, and so it arguably synergizes better with Orb than Tide. It ends up being a rough late game draw in a deck that already runs 4 Familiars and 22 lands. So almost half the deck is "air." HOWEVER, with the inclusion of Gush, I feel like Mox's place is cemented. I often Gush and then draw into Mox which allows me to make quick use of the islands now flooding my hand. That's won me some games. This is all without talking about Mox's mana fixing and ramp. I'm more and more seeing the necessity of some ramp in the format. My next experiments are going to be playing a couple Opts in place of a couple Familiars. I love the dang wall, but I need to smooth out my mana curve, help with mulligans, and help not flooding. That was a lot! I took a couple days because I wanted to get back to you thoroughly! I'll be curious to hear what you think.
@@thefloodedstrand Wow , thanks SO much for the detailed response! I'm pretty new to this format, but I loved the original Treva Tide list as it played so many of my favorite cards from my childhood (QS, RotW, Phantatog, Sunscape Familiar, etc.). Everything you said made a ton of sense, though I'm bummed to hear the more optimized version has to throw some of my faves on the sacrificial altar. From my experience tampering with the original build, I definitely understand what you mean about getting more out of your creatures. Sometimes Mages and Togs can get there, but this deck isn't a full control shell: it's lacking more versatile removal (counterspells and disenchants) and even card draw is a bit niche (QS is great, but can only fetch limited options, Deep Analysis is strong, but painful). I wonder if going down a Tog/Stifle/Quiet Spec in the original build and adding +2 CotH would help add some additional card advantage without making the Tide combo too inconsistent. QSing for a reduced CotH off Familiar isn't the worst thing to do in a pinch. As for the moxes, I agree with your assessment that they're very helpful in the orb build. They're a dream purchase for me eventually (once I find a new job), but right now I only have one. Thanks so much for uploading the content! It's really good and really underrated. I appreciate you talking through the decks and offering thoughtful commentary. Your hard work is appreciated!
@@kovala Hey thank you a ton, super kind words. It's been fun dabbling with this content creation thing. Here's where I got with the CotH addition to Treva Tide Control a while back. Never tested it enough, but there still might be something there. www.moxfield.com/decks/Z-4zQx2Vl0iF0dAWeMMUWA
I'm in love with the Quiet Spec Tide/Phantatog version of Treva Tide. Now that you've played around a bit with the Orb version, I'd love to hear your thoughts regarding the two different versions. Do you find one to be better than the other? Is a CotH/RotW split the best option, or is 3+ RotW preferred? Is Mongrel preferred over Phantatog? Are Moxes necessary to the deck? They seem useful for pushing out t1 meddling mages and familiars but also bad to draw into at any point later than turn one.
Would love to know your thoughts.
You and me both! I also love the Tide/Phantatog version. Basically after playing a ton of matches with it, I kept feeling like I needed more UMPH from my creatures. I would hold the fort long enough to get the Tide combo executed in one of its many forms. But then I couldn't close the match. If the wurms get answered, I'd be trying to win with a 1/2 Tog or a 2/2 Mage. There were enough times where my opponent crept back in and won after losing 4-5 lands that I realized I needed a tad more power in the deck.
Winter Orb is of course easier to pull off than a Tide + ___ combo. Winter Orb is pretty dang good against a lot of the scary decks in the format: Replenish, Enchantress, WU Control, and WB Control. Replenish can land the Tide combo more easily and often quicker than me, so I needed something else for that matchup. Winter Orb also requires enablers/helpers (Gush, Undiscovered Paradise, Mox Diamond) that are probably just better cards overall than Tide's enablers (Phantatog, Stifle, Ray of Revelation). Lastly, and probably the straw that broke my back, is that by switching to Winter Orb I could switch from Phantatog back to Wild Mongrel and had a couple more slots to play with which allowed me to squeeze in Call of the Herd. I really value Call for it's help in control matches, burn too, and simply adding power to the deck.
Regarding Call vs. Roar, I see them as being different entities for the deck. I generally don't want to draw Roar (although the Familiar and Mongrel provide back-stops in case I do draw it) and just want to Quiet Spec for it. While I would generally love to draw Call because it's card advantage by itself. And I don't want to Quiet Spec for it because it's not impactful as just a 3/3 from the yard without having already given me value from being cast from hand.
I agree that Mox may or may not be perfect for the deck. It helps keep my mana flowing even while an Orb is in play, and so it arguably synergizes better with Orb than Tide. It ends up being a rough late game draw in a deck that already runs 4 Familiars and 22 lands. So almost half the deck is "air." HOWEVER, with the inclusion of Gush, I feel like Mox's place is cemented. I often Gush and then draw into Mox which allows me to make quick use of the islands now flooding my hand. That's won me some games. This is all without talking about Mox's mana fixing and ramp. I'm more and more seeing the necessity of some ramp in the format.
My next experiments are going to be playing a couple Opts in place of a couple Familiars. I love the dang wall, but I need to smooth out my mana curve, help with mulligans, and help not flooding.
That was a lot! I took a couple days because I wanted to get back to you thoroughly! I'll be curious to hear what you think.
@@thefloodedstrand Wow , thanks SO much for the detailed response! I'm pretty new to this format, but I loved the original Treva Tide list as it played so many of my favorite cards from my childhood (QS, RotW, Phantatog, Sunscape Familiar, etc.).
Everything you said made a ton of sense, though I'm bummed to hear the more optimized version has to throw some of my faves on the sacrificial altar. From my experience tampering with the original build, I definitely understand what you mean about getting more out of your creatures. Sometimes Mages and Togs can get there, but this deck isn't a full control shell: it's lacking more versatile removal (counterspells and disenchants) and even card draw is a bit niche (QS is great, but can only fetch limited options, Deep Analysis is strong, but painful).
I wonder if going down a Tog/Stifle/Quiet Spec in the original build and adding +2 CotH would help add some additional card advantage without making the Tide combo too inconsistent. QSing for a reduced CotH off Familiar isn't the worst thing to do in a pinch.
As for the moxes, I agree with your assessment that they're very helpful in the orb build. They're a dream purchase for me eventually (once I find a new job), but right now I only have one.
Thanks so much for uploading the content! It's really good and really underrated. I appreciate you talking through the decks and offering thoughtful commentary. Your hard work is appreciated!
@@kovala Hey thank you a ton, super kind words. It's been fun dabbling with this content creation thing.
Here's where I got with the CotH addition to Treva Tide Control a while back. Never tested it enough, but there still might be something there. www.moxfield.com/decks/Z-4zQx2Vl0iF0dAWeMMUWA
Hope you can get those Moxes one day :)
2 smother and a chaotic smattering of other removal choices. Mono black can’t have too much in while being as proactive as it wants to be
Learning exp 😈
@@Tcrosse haha yup. is what it is!
I def drew really poorly with lands and sooo well with mono black😊
I was noticing that. I drew well against lands and mediocre against mono black.