Pleeeease, stop calling everything smart! It is not smart. It's an automation only, a highly deterministic process. All these "smart home" things, are just remote controlled devices, just happens that the remote control is not an IR remote but a device on an IP network and then it has to be called smart. 🤦🏻♂️ 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@gabiold When connecting high power cables safety agencies require the power to be removed. (You're supposed to turn off the breaker before you connect or disconnect your motor home.) This thing is smarter than a circuit breaker in that automatically turn off the power. It detects electrical faults, informs the load how much power is available. It is there for safety. I'd admit 'smart' is overused to describe WiFi connected devices.
I really like how that 30A connector has a clear back, you can quickly check that its wired right and that if something goes wrong you can check the wiring easily
Yes that style of connector is basically the standard here in New Zealand and Australia, for industrial / high current / single or 3 phase use...they are generally called “56 series” because they are IP 56... They have a threaded collar / ring that mates with the socket and holds the connector & plug firmly connected...
@@andrewcourt5156 The plug Dave has is IP66 rated though. The series number is just that I believe. There's many other series available, e.g. 600 series 10A outlets.
My best guess about the series relay is those output pins are accessable via a finger and that needs to be safe during any single fault. A relay fusing or something like that is not an unreasonable single fault
I seem to remember reading somewhere about the different stages of the connection & handshake. One option is one relay activates at one particular stage passing and the other relay connects at the final stage. They could do this instead of using an "and" gate.
these are very much built in the UK they are expanding rapidly the have moved to a larger temporary facility and are building a custom new facility near Grimsby. You would be surprised how much electronics manufacturing in the UK there is I sell electronics manufacturing equipment here and there are loads of them.
To be fair, If something MUST be high quality it may well be made here. Just another reason why going green is a good thing for the UK economy. Genuinely, this will be good for the uk.
The J1772/Type 1 connector predates the Type 2 connector by about 2 years or so. Its creation can basically be attributed to the California Air Resources Board (aka CARB). Some late 90s/early 2000s EVs like the Ford Ranger EV where already using the the original J1772 standard which was paired with the older "Avcon" connector. CARB wanted something that could handle higher current, as Avcon was limited to around 28A. The Yazaki Corp. of Japan stepped up with their design, the Type 1 connector we know today. CARB mandated that this new upcoming connector be the standard connector for plugin vehicles sold in California. Given that California basically made the EV market in the US, automakers complied and the SAE shortly adopted it as the J1772-2009 standard. Thus Type 1 became the defacto standard in the US, and more broadly North America. Around about the same time that the SAE adopted Type 1, German company Mennekes was proposing their "Type 2" connector to German automakers. They adopted the Type 2 connector and eventually the EU legally mandated it. Some early EVs sold in EU countries where actually equipped with Type 1. "Fun" fact: Since the signaling today is basically still the same, old EVs such as the aforementioned Ford Ranger EV equipped with the Avcon connector can be charged on modern EVSEs with a simple physical adapter. As long as the EVSE doesn't present a pilot signal greater than 28A, it will work fine. Long post... But even cooler is the non-conductive induction paddle charging system used by the GM EV1 in the mid 90s. It was more advanced than the J1772 system we ended up with. It actually had 2-way communication between the car and the charger. The car could communicate back to the charger battery chemistry type, state of charge, etc..
@@markg735 a paper I read some time ago made mention that a design goal of the original J1772 signaling was that it could be implemented cheaply.. i.e. without a microcontroller.
Out of curiosity, have you tried removing the diode from your bench-top pilot circuit? I'm really curious if the EVSE's are checking for that today. Back around 2012, I worked as an engineer responsible for the micro-controller code for a residential/commercial EVSE product line. We ran into an issue where someone on UA-cam showed our device not working with their Nissan Leaf but other competitor EVSE's worked fine. After some investigating, we found out that the pilot diode in the Leaf would fail after some period of time - our theory was due to insufficient transient/surge protection. We discovered that many EVSE's on the market did not check for the diode and therefore worked fine when the Leaf's diode failed. I recall having discussions with the project lead engineer whether we should be doing the pilot diode check (SAE and UL standards did not require it at the time), and decided that it should be there exactly for the same safety reason you described - in case the plug was dropped in a puddle and the resistance on the CP pin happened to be in the range to enable charging. You essentially covered the reasons why EVSE is needed but I wanted to highlight one unique safety issue with EVs, and that is the fact that your vehicle's bodywork is effectively isolated from earth ground by rubber tires. One job of EVSE is to ensure that the body work is never ever ever at any potential other than earth ground. Thank you for the video, really enjoyed it!
These fancy EVSE boxes are nice but I really think every electric car should have a self-retracting, pull out 15A cord you can just plug into any standard outlet. It's 'technology' perfected by the humble domestic vacuum cleaner decades ago so there is no excuse.
Kind of yes... but then again not. With an external unit you can just replace it with a more suitable one or whatever. Having it integrated means you will be lugging around little bit of weight around even if you don't want to. And having an integrated thing repaired at a shop can often cost more than buying a new external one anyways. I like the modularity aspect more than the convenience of integrated. And the integrated one would have to fit all kinds of different country standards and adapted when cars get shipped from country to country etc. If the whole world ran on the same standard for plugs and amps etc. then it would make a bit more sense.
@@benbaselet2026 That is not a valid argument: EVs have unnecessary complicated charging protocols. EVs should only need a 3 phase 32A or bigger male red CEE connector under the filler lid and be compatible with absolutely everything carrying a voltage. The car should naturally be able to work on single phase as well as 3 phase, and charging current is set on the dash before plugging in. The simpler, the more future proof. People have handled AC connectors for a century. This is just a blatant money grab on par with ink cartridges and vacuum cleaner bags! AC is a common good, and monopolizing a shared public funded resource is a crime.
Nice video Dave, as always. I've been watching EVSE installs on Jordan's (Artisan Electrics) channel. One feature that I wish we had in the US was the ability to monitor total energy draw and scale the charge rate down to avoid tripping the main breaker. Another thing that you guys got right was to standardize on connector. Here, Tesla uses theirs, Nissan has theirs, and everyone uses J1772.
whoever stuck that Aussie flag on upside down was surely having a joke. also as you probably know, all UK electrical equipment is marked 230V 50Hz despite the supply having always been 240V. the EU standardised on 230V and everyone with 220V or 240V supplies just widened their tolerances rather than change any equipment
I like the idea of charging a car off of solar, but since you're going from DC to AC back to DC bothers the efficiency geek in me. If only there was a way to bypass the inverter.
If this is for zero crossing detect, why include the 5V relay? I don't see a reason why you would need or want to switch the line side AC input feeding an opto if all you want is zero-cross detect.
@@Smidge204 I have no idea. You can see though that the opto is on the switched side, not the control side, and it seems to be connected to the mains line. What else would it do?
Best description I've seen of what these do is to negotiate the parameters of the charging session, based on the joint capabilities of the vehicle and the power supply. We are indeed weird, bruh!
Worth noting that EVs also have a Minimum charge current of 6A. So if your solar is exporting less than 6A, you either need to export that "for a pittance" or make up the rest by importing from the grid.
I get to watch you do the things I would want to do with these gadgets while you teach me the things I want to learn. Thank you! Cheers from the Ouachita mountains.
The double relay in series is quite common in industrial safety circuits (the one triggered by the big red mushroom switch). If i recall correctly is even mandatory in the EU Machine regulation. It's done because, if one contactor weld shut, the other trips and open the circuit. I also think that the safety module can also detect in one is faulty and refuse to energize the other one.
That's interesting. A few years ago I found an EV charger by the side of the road and couldn't figure out what it was at first because it was just a black box with the wires cut off. Mine was completely different inside. It had several different transformers, inductors, fuses, circuit breakers, and some sort of power diodes or switching devices on heat sinks. Maybe it was a DC charger? It was a lot more complex than yours.
I fitted a 3 position switch to the connector on my dumb EVSE's cable to present 3 different resistances to the PP pin in the car. This fools the car into thinking the cable has different current capacity (13A, 20A, 32A) to make best use of our solar. It can even be switched during use.
No worries about the overvoltage in AUS network. UK is using 240 V, actually.They did that while Europe was still using 220 V. This 230 V on the box is to comply with new UE regulations. The tolerance in the EU standard is 10%, so they could run the network up to 253 V theoretically.
They often do run the mains voltage to over 250 in the UK, at least in my area anyway, I regularly see 252volts on my supply but it's more usually around 248 to 250.
@@Tekwyzard Your kettle must boil water in no time ;). The supply company might run the line higher, to account for the voltage drops along the supply line.
@@piotrts It does boil rather quickly, yes:-) But it makes building mains powered electronic projects a bit more interesting. I live really close to a substation, but suspect the system is set up to cope with repercussions of everyone on my estate watching 'Coronation St' or some such BS.
The small relay and opto-coupler is probably a PE detection circuit. What it actually does is leaking a bit of current from Line to PE while measuring it. Current above predefined threshold means proper connection of PE. In some countries this may also allow 20mA instead of 6mA RCD.
Charging your EV on excess solar is the icing on the cake. Followed by driving with your solar electric vehicle past a service station checking out the latest pricing for dinosaur juice.
In the UK the DNO(distribution network operator) in our area (Western Power) is installing three phase to new builds now. This blew me away learning this. This is for super fast charging for cars and heat pumps/ air conditioning. In UK most outlets I have measured a good 240v so same as Australia just we needed to move to 230v to conform to EU guess what we left the EU.
@@SimonCoates At peak time. And it's running at about 20% capacity at its lowest. Which means that there is no problem, as cars need about 1 hour (single-phase, or 20 minutes 3-phase) worth of charging per day on average. Plenty of hours each night when the grid is idle.
The biggest problem with the grid is imbalance in the system. Having three phase and smart tariffs will ballance the network and because of renewable energy the gas turbine network is being upgraded to bring balance back
The Aussie connector looks rather similar to what is often known as a "Commando" plug here in the UK. EV chargers are typically permanently installed here, with a 32A feed taken from the consumer unit (fuse board!)
And, of course, whilst all sensible countries have standardized on "commando" connectors there are a few places that have decided for no apparent reason to go their own way or to stay with a previous standard when having just the one universal worldwide standard is the most sensible thing to do.
Least you got a zappie and not a HyperVolt… something still very unsettling about having a raspberry pi which I don’t control sitting on my home wifi, in an always powered on box accessible to anyone on the outside of my house. Apparently it’s not a problem though! Many layers of encryption 🤦♂️ yet they won’t send me a trial unit a free PenTest! 🙄
AFAIK zappi have already changed MCU due to the shortages, don't know if they've started making the new version yet but they've just gone for an overpowered MCU as they're less prone to disappearing all at once
Solar aware - what use is that? EV charging at home is usually overnight. What you really need with a 7 kW or greater home EVSE is to have smart load control built in so that it backs off the charge rate when you turn on everything else in you home otherwise you risk blowing your main supply fuse.
Lots of equipment (inc this device) does exactly that... they have a current clamp to measure incoming load and back off when load increases. The solar aware bit is for people who do, and can charge in the day, and when linked with the battery storage systems also tries to minimise use of the grid as best it can (how it does that can be programmed). It also has a load of safety things like type B rcd, PEN fault detection and usual other stuff. Seen lots of installers rave about it compared to other systems.
It depends on your situation. And it comes as a trivial freebie when implementing load control, which yes, these do, because yes, the engineers were actually thinking when they designed it.
Why would you charge your car with expensive energy overnight when you could let it fill up for free on the weekends and only add an hour or so during the week if it runs too low?
I think the two relays in series are for independent control and safety. So I guess one relay will be your PEN / earth fault isolator. The other relay will be for regular control functions. I work on programmable safety systems in the process industry. We often have two valves in series on a particular pipe. One will be for process control, and the other is a safety shutdown valve which intervenes if pressure / level etc is outside allowed limits. Safety systems are always independently controlled in case of a failure on your process control system.
Passenger EVs love 240 split-phase, just the same as 230 single-phase. The IEC EV standards allow for a hot “neutral” terminal on the connector. Not just because of the USA and Japan, Belgium and Norway for example also have older installations with Delta 230 connected transformers (no neutral) and on those EVSE use two hots.
It would be awesome to use the dc pins of the full ccs type 2 and see if you could emulate dc fast charging from LiFePO4 and solar direct with some boost converter or something.
We open sourced a version of SAE J3068 at the University of Delaware. It’s the new North American standard for three-phase AC charging (using mennekes but higher voltage and current) and new digital control pilot called LIN-CP. It’s targeted for a medium and heavy duty use.
Now I understand why so many companies started producing their own charging points. Margins must be great, as it is not worth what they ask for it. Sadly, still very few good options out there. I chose zappi as well.
Standard? Not here in the USA there isn't...Tesla proprietary seems most common by far but non-Teslas use various other plugs. One of the big problems with EVs here being you have to find the "right" charger that you can plug it into where you are going.
You can find chargers for anything in the US, the problem is that all the charging networks outside of Tesla are horrendously unreliable. They are down all the time some almost permanently.
The RCD module could be produced by third part company that remark for them. The reason may be that RCDs have high safety standards and require extensive safety testing. In support of this is the fact that the finish of the two PCBs is different.
NIce, so this is the same as a Phone "charger" haha, the charger is in the phone but the USB power supply lets the phone know how much current it can pull ( I think in the 2.0 USB spec at least) via the data pins.
Be nice if they could just integrate it into the OBD-2 network in the vehicle itself (Edit: Assuming they still use CAN bus for everything in the EVs). That would mean sending data out on the connector so it would need some interface that guarantees a little more immunity to, say, 240V coming into the data network, but then everything like range, max charge, etc. could just be sent from the vehicle, and also updated in real time based on the parameters such as the current state of the battery, climate, etc. Rather than just typing it in, it would tell you the true range you have based on your charge at a glance, and be able to do other things as well.
All I got with my car was a type 2 cable. Had to buy my own 13A charger while waiting for the 7kw charger to be installed. I have a Podpoint brand one with tethered cable, it has a current clamp to monitor total load on the incoming supply so it doesn’t overload the supply wiring to the house.
Hi Dave? So this year my brother bought a VW Transporter electric van. He loves it, but "It/They!" have a fault where maximun mileage is only 50miles. It should be around 80-90. Also our area doesnt have a VW Auto electrician. VW said they might load his van on a truck and take it elsewhere in UK to look at. He even has to remove terminals from lead 12v battery , to reset stuff, or charger sometimes doesnt work when at home. Also maximun charge per hour is only 3-4 miles per hour. What rubbish
Might be best to change the Ethernet cable connecting the CT's to a control type cable to differentiate it from other Comms cabling in the house. CT's can output high voltage if there is no load, ie some NBN tech cuts the cable. I'd go with a screened control cable and look at fusing(PTC Thermistor)/over voltage(MOV) the outputs of the CT's at the main board. I haven't done any calcs to see what power we are talking about but I think the the CT V could be dangerous if the cable was cut.
Just had a thought- why not do the trip tests using high power variable resistors to see at what current they go'. Connect between the output live (or "active" in aussie) and the input Neutral and slowly turn down the resistance... -click. 👍🏻
little relay is commutating input ground cable to ground checking circuit. if check fails, microcontroller turns off the relay to remove 'ground' cable from the plug output ground
Although it doesn't say it on the label, equipment for the UK has to be rated 230V +/- 10%. This is a bit of a frig to unify the UK with the rest of Europe. Historically the mainland was nominally 220V whilst the UK was nominally 240V. By going for a standard of 230V +/- 10% you achieve uniformity without anyone actually changing anything.
Actually more advanced use like V2G requires IEEE P1901.2 HomePlug Green PHY (HPGP) to be implemented. Which means the wall "charger" has to be at least a passthrough and ideally active in sensing the operation. Plus advanced uses such as V2H will require advanced power handling from it anyway.
Only takes me 10 seconds to charge my EV. 5 seconds to plug it in when I get home, 5 seconds to unplug it when I leave. Gas stations are just places to have a pee and buy snacks.
@@treelineresearch3387 Long distance travel is easy drive for 2 to 3 hours charge foe 15 to 20 minutes, repeat as necessary. The bladder limit is my range governor.
@@universeisundernoobligatio3283 I think we can just admit batteries are still quite sub-optimal for road trips, at least in the States where everything is much farther than say Europe. Fine for commuting tho. The main reason I don't have any interest in electric yet is they're still going for a "disposable car" model. Maybe that will change as there are more of them around, but the industry itself really loves the disposable unfixable aspect.
@@treelineresearch3387 Friends drove in February in a Model 3 ( winter in Canada) from Vancouver to Halifax 6,300km in 72hours 32 minutes, long distance travel in the cold was not a problem.
@@treelineresearch3387 Both brother's are mechanics and they complain endlessly about the ICE cars having 100k life and companies making the difficult to repair "disposable car" .
Dave, want to do failure analysis on a Tesla Model 3 PCS (Power Conversion System)? Car shipped with a bad PCS and was replaced under warranty. The replacement PCS starting to fail at ~100k miles so out of warranty and had that replaced this week. $1100usd part and half that again in labor. Will ship the removed PCS at my cost to anyone who can explore why these are failing for Tesla Model 3 owners.
I'm surprised how big it is, it's mostly full of air! I have a Wallbox Pulsar (32A-7kW), it would basically fit inside the Zappi's empty space! The WB inside is much denser and it has no screen or buttons, you have to use the phone app for everything.
Due to chip shortages I know they had to pivot to a different micro processor, not sure if the one Dave has is the current version or previous version.
The wireless antenna is most likely to allow communicate with Myenergi's Hub. The kW from your solar panels will be limited by your inverter. I did a tutorial on how to fit a Tesla charging button to the Zappi charging plug. Theoretically speaking, if the resistor in the plug was changed from 220 ohms to 210 ohms would it be possible to draw 34 amps from the Zappi or would there be some other limitation? I note that the relays are limited to 35 amps.
The Oz has the same BS as the NA with single phase even to detached homes?! Man, EU really lucked out on the electric infrastructure with even large apartments getting 3 phase power.
@@--Nath-- Yeah, I know you _can_ get it, my point that it's standard to get 3 phase power, even in apartments in EU. And no, it's not just welding: EVs benefit from it. Water heaters, electric cookers, cloths driers...
Three phase in a North American home is completely overkill, I work in industry I deal with three phase all the time. Up until this point (EV charging) there have been no loads in your home that required 3 phase. In the early 70's some monster air conditioners or three phase, that's about it. Now everything is split into multiple zones and is more efficient because of it.
@@flandrble I would have thought most of these would not be installed in a shed but rather on a driveway near the vehicle to be charged. As a result,it would be likely that these are installed exposed to full direct sunlight, even in south Wales during the rare exposure of sun it is not uncommon for surfaces / enclosures etc to reach 56+ deg c. I have seen lcd failure due to this.
@@daic7274 tbh the build quality of this one to me doesn't look sturdy enough to be suitable for an outdoor installation, but it's very typical of indoor units.
I wonder can't they design a system to determine the limits of the line, e.g., base it on voltage drop or any other measurement to determine what the wiring can handle just in case someone does something like put a 30 amp charger on a 20 amp circuit but leaves the device set to 30 amps?
I think there would be too many variables for voltage drop, unless you set it really high I suppose, but that could easily be above the current rating limit. For example, dropping 5 volts on 100' of 30a wire is probably fine as that's a lot of length to absorb the heat, but if you had 5 volts of drop on 10' of wire, that could be a sign of an issue. I get about 2-4 volts of drop when charging my car, and I only charge at 23 amps out the of circuit's max of 60 peak, 48 continuous (6 AWG copper). And I don't have far runs. The 200 amp service entry only runs 8 feet from the meter to panel, and only another 13' from the panel to EVSE. Cranking up charging to the max 40 amps of the EVSE, I usually get near 6 volts of drop. Which is a lot so I never charge that high. Everything gets warm and the car's cooling circuit kicks on a lot, which is all wasted energy. Also the voltage to my house can fluctuate ~10 volts throughout the day, so it would have to measure the voltage at the panel somehow to know what the drop between panel and EVSE is. If the EVSE has NEMA plug, the max current should already be set from the factory, and the wiring in the house should already be up to code for that receptacle. If it's a hard wired EVSE, then more likely it's going to be installed by a licensed electrician or by a knowledgeable owner who knows what they're doing and gets it inspected by an official. It's an interesting thought though. Perhaps another way to have a safety like that is to have temp sensors on the line side terminal block and ambient air of the EVSE. If you've undersized the wiring, the temp difference between the block and ambient would reach a certain threshold and start to limit the current. I know the Tesla portable EVSE has a temp sensor in the plug head to throttle current if it gets too warm from a loose fitting or overloaded receptacle. At least the US versions do.
Installation & Testing video is on EEVblog2 here: ua-cam.com/video/EYx46kRv2Bw/v-deo.html
First step of installing a new charger: void the warranty
its not a charger.
@@Leon-pm6lr true, neither is your phone charger.
The world is full of misnomers.
It's made to open to install it, so honestly, probably not!
Seen many of these installed on Artisan Electric channel and they do have to take them apart that way to install and wire them.
It isn't wireless charging or a plug in unit - so you need to hook in the mains power to the terminals inside..
The best description for this device is a smart safety switch.
Pleeeease, stop calling everything smart!
It is not smart. It's an automation only, a highly deterministic process. All these "smart home" things, are just remote controlled devices, just happens that the remote control is not an IR remote but a device on an IP network and then it has to be called smart. 🤦🏻♂️ 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@gabiold When connecting high power cables safety agencies require the power to be removed. (You're supposed to turn off the breaker before you connect or disconnect your motor home.) This thing is smarter than a circuit breaker in that automatically turn off the power. It detects electrical faults, informs the load how much power is available. It is there for safety. I'd admit 'smart' is overused to describe WiFi connected devices.
I really like how that 30A connector has a clear back, you can quickly check that its wired right and that if something goes wrong you can check the wiring easily
And 95% of the world just think, oooo pretty colours.
Yes that style of connector is basically the standard here in New Zealand and Australia, for industrial / high current / single or 3 phase use...they are generally called “56 series” because they are IP 56... They have a threaded collar / ring that mates with the socket and holds the connector & plug firmly connected...
@@andrewcourt5156 The plug Dave has is IP66 rated though. The series number is just that I believe. There's many other series available, e.g. 600 series 10A outlets.
Nah, it's clear so you can see whether it's full of water or have some killer spider beneath.
Makes me wonder why they don't make all plugs transparent.
23:02 Unexpected Final Fantasy victory fanfare
*Buster Sword Spin!*
Yeah, i was just thinking it was some random startup tone then went... wait a minute.... and rewound it about 5 times ot make sure.
It's a great little easter egg :)
Hope they don't get sued by Square Enix :)
As soon as I heard it, I paused the video to see if anyone else had pointed it out.
Cool to see one of my customers products being torn down…. Immediately sent a link to the production engineer I work with :)
My best guess about the series relay is those output pins are accessable via a finger and that needs to be safe during any single fault. A relay fusing or something like that is not an unreasonable single fault
I seem to remember reading somewhere about the different stages of the connection & handshake. One option is one relay activates at one particular stage passing and the other relay connects at the final stage. They could do this instead of using an "and" gate.
Videos like this helps me to pretend we still have a manufacturing industry in the UK. :)
designed in the UK perhaps..
these are very much built in the UK they are expanding rapidly the have moved to a larger temporary facility and are building a custom new facility near Grimsby. You would be surprised how much electronics manufacturing in the UK there is I sell electronics manufacturing equipment here and there are loads of them.
@@jaycee1980 Most definitely assembled in the UK.
To be fair, If something MUST be high quality it may well be made here. Just another reason why going green is a good thing for the UK economy. Genuinely, this will be good for the uk.
Brexit be damned but I bought one from the Netherlands. Love my Zappi, its awesome to be able to tweak and check everything.
The J1772/Type 1 connector predates the Type 2 connector by about 2 years or so. Its creation can basically be attributed to the California Air Resources Board (aka CARB). Some late 90s/early 2000s EVs like the Ford Ranger EV where already using the the original J1772 standard which was paired with the older "Avcon" connector. CARB wanted something that could handle higher current, as Avcon was limited to around 28A. The Yazaki Corp. of Japan stepped up with their design, the Type 1 connector we know today. CARB mandated that this new upcoming connector be the standard connector for plugin vehicles sold in California. Given that California basically made the EV market in the US, automakers complied and the SAE shortly adopted it as the J1772-2009 standard. Thus Type 1 became the defacto standard in the US, and more broadly North America. Around about the same time that the SAE adopted Type 1, German company Mennekes was proposing their "Type 2" connector to German automakers. They adopted the Type 2 connector and eventually the EU legally mandated it.
Some early EVs sold in EU countries where actually equipped with Type 1.
"Fun" fact: Since the signaling today is basically still the same, old EVs such as the aforementioned Ford Ranger EV equipped with the Avcon connector can be charged on modern EVSEs with a simple physical adapter. As long as the EVSE doesn't present a pilot signal greater than 28A, it will work fine.
Long post... But even cooler is the non-conductive induction paddle charging system used by the GM EV1 in the mid 90s. It was more advanced than the J1772 system we ended up with. It actually had 2-way communication between the car and the charger. The car could communicate back to the charger battery chemistry type, state of charge, etc..
Why J1772 didn't just have a CAN bus on it is beyond me.
@@markg735 a paper I read some time ago made mention that a design goal of the original J1772 signaling was that it could be implemented cheaply.. i.e. without a microcontroller.
Out of curiosity, have you tried removing the diode from your bench-top pilot circuit? I'm really curious if the EVSE's are checking for that today.
Back around 2012, I worked as an engineer responsible for the micro-controller code for a residential/commercial EVSE product line. We ran into an issue where someone on UA-cam showed our device not working with their Nissan Leaf but other competitor EVSE's worked fine. After some investigating, we found out that the pilot diode in the Leaf would fail after some period of time - our theory was due to insufficient transient/surge protection. We discovered that many EVSE's on the market did not check for the diode and therefore worked fine when the Leaf's diode failed. I recall having discussions with the project lead engineer whether we should be doing the pilot diode check (SAE and UL standards did not require it at the time), and decided that it should be there exactly for the same safety reason you described - in case the plug was dropped in a puddle and the resistance on the CP pin happened to be in the range to enable charging.
You essentially covered the reasons why EVSE is needed but I wanted to highlight one unique safety issue with EVs, and that is the fact that your vehicle's bodywork is effectively isolated from earth ground by rubber tires. One job of EVSE is to ensure that the body work is never ever ever at any potential other than earth ground.
Thank you for the video, really enjoyed it!
Diode problem issue. You are right Jeff!
The reason why the sticker was like that was an effort to compensate Australia being upside down. Obviously they got something wrong ;)
These fancy EVSE boxes are nice but I really think every electric car should have a self-retracting, pull out 15A cord you can just plug into any standard outlet. It's 'technology' perfected by the humble domestic vacuum cleaner decades ago so there is no excuse.
But then how can they charge $1000 for a glorified relay (or 3 like this one) and special plug?
Kind of yes... but then again not. With an external unit you can just replace it with a more suitable one or whatever. Having it integrated means you will be lugging around little bit of weight around even if you don't want to. And having an integrated thing repaired at a shop can often cost more than buying a new external one anyways. I like the modularity aspect more than the convenience of integrated. And the integrated one would have to fit all kinds of different country standards and adapted when cars get shipped from country to country etc. If the whole world ran on the same standard for plugs and amps etc. then it would make a bit more sense.
@@benbaselet2026 That is not a valid argument: EVs have unnecessary complicated charging protocols. EVs should only need a 3 phase 32A or bigger male red CEE connector under the filler lid and be compatible with absolutely everything carrying a voltage. The car should naturally be able to work on single phase as well as 3 phase, and charging current is set on the dash before plugging in. The simpler, the more future proof. People have handled AC connectors for a century. This is just a blatant money grab on par with ink cartridges and vacuum cleaner bags! AC is a common good, and monopolizing a shared public funded resource is a crime.
@@Tore_Lund All well and good until someone plugs in their car with a 0.75mm2 extension cord and then says it's good for 32A.
Cars are often charged in the rain so waterproofing is important, domestic sockets can be waterproofed with boxes but are those boxes foolproof?
It plays the Final Fantasy victory fanfare... it has my vote!
Nice video Dave, as always. I've been watching EVSE installs on Jordan's (Artisan Electrics) channel.
One feature that I wish we had in the US was the ability to monitor total energy draw and scale the charge rate down to avoid tripping the main breaker. Another thing that you guys got right was to standardize on connector. Here, Tesla uses theirs, Nissan has theirs, and everyone uses J1772.
whoever stuck that Aussie flag on upside down was surely having a joke. also as you probably know, all UK electrical equipment is marked 230V 50Hz despite the supply having always been 240V. the EU standardised on 230V and everyone with 220V or 240V supplies just widened their tolerances rather than change any equipment
Absolute crack up about the sticker Dave, I totally support you removing it!
I like the idea of charging a car off of solar, but since you're going from DC to AC back to DC bothers the efficiency geek in me. If only there was a way to bypass the inverter.
I think the little relay and opto is a zero crossing detector? So they can switch the big relays at the zero crossing.
If this is for zero crossing detect, why include the 5V relay? I don't see a reason why you would need or want to switch the line side AC input feeding an opto if all you want is zero-cross detect.
@@Smidge204 I have no idea. You can see though that the opto is on the switched side, not the control side, and it seems to be connected to the mains line. What else would it do?
I'm sure it's doing that somewhere, but that doesn't explain the relay.
Best description I've seen of what these do is to negotiate the parameters of the charging session, based on the joint capabilities of the vehicle and the power supply. We are indeed weird, bruh!
You can tell someone at Myenergi is a JRPG fan. The boot-up sound on the Zappi is the Final Fantasy victory fanfare.
🥳
Worth noting that EVs also have a Minimum charge current of 6A. So if your solar is exporting less than 6A, you either need to export that "for a pittance" or make up the rest by importing from the grid.
The Startup Sound of the EVSE is the Final Fantasy Victory Jingle... :D
I get to watch you do the things I would want to do with these gadgets while you teach me the things I want to learn. Thank you!
Cheers from the Ouachita mountains.
Thats an absolutely massive box for such a small amount of circuitry.
Yeah, but it doubles as a cord hanger when unused.
Might be a bit bigger for the 3 phase version
true but good for cooling/ air circulation.
Yeah but you need cable termination space and also the hanger on the front + cord wrap around.
The exact same rear housing is used in the 3 phase models, those boards are completely stuffed.
Even the relays are external to the board.
Can’t wait to see more on eevblog2
This very exiting, I really wanted to see a tear down of this.
Edit : my disappointment is immeasurable.
The flag is upside down clearly because it was stuck on in the northern hemisphere.
The double relay in series is quite common in industrial safety circuits (the one triggered by the big red mushroom switch). If i recall correctly is even mandatory in the EU Machine regulation.
It's done because, if one contactor weld shut, the other trips and open the circuit. I also think that the safety module can also detect in one is faulty and refuse to energize the other one.
That's interesting. A few years ago I found an EV charger by the side of the road and couldn't figure out what it was at first because it was just a black box with the wires cut off. Mine was completely different inside. It had several different transformers, inductors, fuses, circuit breakers, and some sort of power diodes or switching devices on heat sinks. Maybe it was a DC charger? It was a lot more complex than yours.
I fitted a 3 position switch to the connector on my dumb EVSE's cable to present 3 different resistances to the PP pin in the car. This fools the car into thinking the cable has different current capacity (13A, 20A, 32A) to make best use of our solar. It can even be switched during use.
No worries about the overvoltage in AUS network. UK is using 240 V, actually.They did that while Europe was still using 220 V. This 230 V on the box is to comply with new UE regulations. The tolerance in the EU standard is 10%, so they could run the network up to 253 V theoretically.
They often do run the mains voltage to over 250 in the UK, at least in my area anyway, I regularly see 252volts on my supply but it's more usually around 248 to 250.
@@Tekwyzard Your kettle must boil water in no time ;). The supply company might run the line higher, to account for the voltage drops along the supply line.
@@piotrts It does boil rather quickly, yes:-) But it makes building mains powered electronic projects a bit more interesting. I live really close to a substation, but suspect the system is set up to cope with repercussions of everyone on my estate watching 'Coronation St' or some such BS.
You're good at exposing Scams. Here's a big one. Spinlaunch.
Funny that I got a quote from my electrician yesterday for this unit. Let's see if it's worth the money. Thanks.
How many zeros on that quote?
@@--Nath-- I paid £700 for mine, and that was with the grant money included, so around a £1k without, I think.
The small relay and opto-coupler is probably a PE detection circuit. What it actually does is leaking a bit of current from Line to PE while measuring it. Current above predefined threshold means proper connection of PE. In some countries this may also allow 20mA instead of 6mA RCD.
Charging your EV on excess solar is the icing on the cake. Followed by driving with your solar electric vehicle past a service station checking out the latest pricing for dinosaur juice.
In the UK the DNO(distribution network operator) in our area (Western Power) is installing three phase to new builds now. This blew me away learning this. This is for super fast charging for cars and heat pumps/ air conditioning. In UK most outlets I have measured a good 240v so same as Australia just we needed to move to 230v to conform to EU guess what we left the EU.
Unfortunately the National Grid is already at capacity.
@@SimonCoates At peak time. And it's running at about 20% capacity at its lowest. Which means that there is no problem, as cars need about 1 hour (single-phase, or 20 minutes 3-phase) worth of charging per day on average. Plenty of hours each night when the grid is idle.
The biggest problem with the grid is imbalance in the system. Having three phase and smart tariffs will ballance the network and because of renewable energy the gas turbine network is being upgraded to bring balance back
The Aussie connector looks rather similar to what is often known as a "Commando" plug here in the UK. EV chargers are typically permanently installed here, with a 32A feed taken from the consumer unit (fuse board!)
And, of course, whilst all sensible countries have standardized on "commando" connectors there are a few places that have decided for no apparent reason to go their own way or to stay with a previous standard when having just the one universal worldwide standard is the most sensible thing to do.
@@dglcomputers1498 Do you mean the USA, Aus and Japan? As you say, most countries have standardised on 16 /32/ 63A 'Commando' connectors
Least you got a zappie and not a HyperVolt… something still very unsettling about having a raspberry pi which I don’t control sitting on my home wifi, in an always powered on box accessible to anyone on the outside of my house.
Apparently it’s not a problem though! Many layers of encryption 🤦♂️ yet they won’t send me a trial unit a free PenTest! 🙄
I can say with authority that some PIC24s are not immune to the current chipocalpse. Not as bad at STM32s, but not much better either.
AFAIK zappi have already changed MCU due to the shortages, don't know if they've started making the new version yet but they've just gone for an overpowered MCU as they're less prone to disappearing all at once
The Signal Swing is + - 12 V the Earth is 0 .....the Diode is to drop the Signal only on the Positive Side of the Signal..
That chiptune sounds like the victory fanfare from Final Fantasy games.
Solar aware - what use is that? EV charging at home is usually overnight. What you really need with a 7 kW or greater home EVSE is to have smart load control built in so that it backs off the charge rate when you turn on everything else in you home otherwise you risk blowing your main supply fuse.
Lots of equipment (inc this device) does exactly that... they have a current clamp to measure incoming load and back off when load increases. The solar aware bit is for people who do, and can charge in the day, and when linked with the battery storage systems also tries to minimise use of the grid as best it can (how it does that can be programmed).
It also has a load of safety things like type B rcd, PEN fault detection and usual other stuff.
Seen lots of installers rave about it compared to other systems.
Depends on your usage scenario. The car is often at home charging durign the day, I ride my bike to work a lot.
It depends on your situation. And it comes as a trivial freebie when implementing load control, which yes, these do, because yes, the engineers were actually thinking when they designed it.
Why would you charge your car with expensive energy overnight when you could let it fill up for free on the weekends and only add an hour or so during the week if it runs too low?
17:38 was that the Final Fantasy victory fanfare?
No idea, but everyone is saying that.
@@EEVblog yes, it's "Victory Theme" Final Fantasy Series by Nobou Uematsu.
I think the two relays in series are for independent control and safety. So I guess one relay will be your PEN / earth fault isolator. The other relay will be for regular control functions.
I work on programmable safety systems in the process industry. We often have two valves in series on a particular pipe. One will be for process control, and the other is a safety shutdown valve which intervenes if pressure / level etc is outside allowed limits. Safety systems are always independently controlled in case of a failure on your process control system.
Passenger EVs love 240 split-phase, just the same as 230 single-phase.
The IEC EV standards allow for a hot “neutral” terminal on the connector. Not just because of the USA and Japan, Belgium and Norway for example also have older installations with Delta 230 connected transformers (no neutral) and on those EVSE use two hots.
It would be awesome to use the dc pins of the full ccs type 2 and see if you could emulate dc fast charging from LiFePO4 and solar direct with some boost converter or something.
We open sourced a version of SAE J3068 at the University of Delaware. It’s the new North American standard for three-phase AC charging (using mennekes but higher voltage and current) and new digital control pilot called LIN-CP. It’s targeted for a medium and heavy duty use.
I personally use the term 'charge point' for those things.
I'd love to see a heat map of this thing while it's running.
It is best to have two clamps, one for in incoming and one for solar production for the best monitoring. (I have a Zappi 2 myself).
Good to see a bit of UK made equipment going for export 🙂
Neat. Good implementation of KISS.
Is the second relay (in series) for the fault protection? The CT label is a hint...
that beep soungs like the battle victory music from final fantasy
“Those Yanks are weird.” We like our power system and we’re proud of it.
Now I understand why so many companies started producing their own charging points. Margins must be great, as it is not worth what they ask for it. Sadly, still very few good options out there. I chose zappi as well.
Thanks for sharing Dave. :)
Standard? Not here in the USA there isn't...Tesla proprietary seems most common by far but non-Teslas use various other plugs. One of the big problems with EVs here being you have to find the "right" charger that you can plug it into where you are going.
Ahhh lots of connectors to carry out lovely…
You can find chargers for anything in the US, the problem is that all the charging networks outside of Tesla are horrendously unreliable. They are down all the time some almost permanently.
We use the mi energy controllers for water heating with excess solar. They work really well for that.
Smashing mate!
The RCD module could be produced by third part company that remark for them. The reason may be that RCDs have high safety standards and require extensive safety testing. In support of this is the fact that the finish of the two PCBs is different.
i love to see how well it can control (and how fast!) the charge current based on the solar.
NIce, so this is the same as a Phone "charger" haha, the charger is in the phone but the USB power supply lets the phone know how much current it can pull ( I think in the 2.0 USB spec at least) via the data pins.
Right, this is really called an EVSE, not a charger.
Thanks Dave! USA
Everytime Dave says "Old Dirt" it sounds like I'm watching a space based sci-fi film.
That would be "old dart"
Be nice if they could just integrate it into the OBD-2 network in the vehicle itself (Edit: Assuming they still use CAN bus for everything in the EVs). That would mean sending data out on the connector so it would need some interface that guarantees a little more immunity to, say, 240V coming into the data network, but then everything like range, max charge, etc. could just be sent from the vehicle, and also updated in real time based on the parameters such as the current state of the battery, climate, etc. Rather than just typing it in, it would tell you the true range you have based on your charge at a glance, and be able to do other things as well.
All I got with my car was a type 2 cable. Had to buy my own 13A charger while waiting for the 7kw charger to be installed. I have a Podpoint brand one with tethered cable, it has a current clamp to monitor total load on the incoming supply so it doesn’t overload the supply wiring to the house.
Hi Dave?
So this year my brother bought a VW Transporter electric van. He loves it, but "It/They!" have a fault where maximun mileage is only 50miles. It should be around 80-90. Also our area doesnt have a VW Auto electrician. VW said they might load his van on a truck and take it elsewhere in UK to look at.
He even has to remove terminals from lead 12v battery , to reset stuff, or charger sometimes doesnt work when at home.
Also maximun charge per hour is only 3-4 miles per hour. What rubbish
This is very interesting. Thanks 👍
Great video!
Thanks, great video. I would like to see Open EVSE videos!
Might be best to change the Ethernet cable connecting the CT's to a control type cable to differentiate it from other Comms cabling in the house. CT's can output high voltage if there is no load, ie some NBN tech cuts the cable. I'd go with a screened control cable and look at fusing(PTC Thermistor)/over voltage(MOV) the outputs of the CT's at the main board. I haven't done any calcs to see what power we are talking about but I think the the CT V could be dangerous if the cable was cut.
Was that a Final Fantasy tune?
Just had a thought- why not do the trip tests using high power variable resistors to see at what current they go'. Connect between the output live (or "active" in aussie) and the input Neutral and slowly turn down the resistance... -click. 👍🏻
Lol, "Anyways those yanks are weird." :-)
little relay is commutating input ground cable to ground checking circuit. if check fails, microcontroller turns off the relay to remove 'ground' cable from the plug output ground
Wow in North America we pay 800$CAD just for a basic EVSE (read: no connectivity to anything except your car) and yours has so much features :O
Although it doesn't say it on the label, equipment for the UK has to be rated 230V +/- 10%. This is a bit of a frig to unify the UK with the rest of Europe. Historically the mainland was nominally 220V whilst the UK was nominally 240V. By going for a standard of 230V +/- 10% you achieve uniformity without anyone actually changing anything.
Actually more advanced use like V2G requires IEEE P1901.2 HomePlug Green PHY (HPGP) to be implemented. Which means the wall "charger" has to be at least a passthrough and ideally active in sensing the operation. Plus advanced uses such as V2H will require advanced power handling from it anyway.
This solar detector is brilliant….
Are they doing circuit pre-charging to reduce internal relay arcing.
Only takes me 10 seconds to charge my EV. 5 seconds to plug it in when I get home, 5 seconds to unplug it when I leave.
Gas stations are just places to have a pee and buy snacks.
...as long as you're not going more than 300 miles (or less, depending on temp and battery wear).
@@treelineresearch3387
Long distance travel is easy drive for 2 to 3 hours charge foe 15 to 20 minutes, repeat as necessary. The bladder limit is my range governor.
@@universeisundernoobligatio3283 I think we can just admit batteries are still quite sub-optimal for road trips, at least in the States where everything is much farther than say Europe. Fine for commuting tho. The main reason I don't have any interest in electric yet is they're still going for a "disposable car" model. Maybe that will change as there are more of them around, but the industry itself really loves the disposable unfixable aspect.
@@treelineresearch3387
Friends drove in February in a Model 3 ( winter in Canada) from Vancouver to Halifax 6,300km in 72hours 32 minutes, long distance travel in the cold was not a problem.
@@treelineresearch3387
Both brother's are mechanics and they complain endlessly about the ICE cars having 100k life and companies making the difficult to repair "disposable car" .
Dave, want to do failure analysis on a Tesla Model 3 PCS (Power Conversion System)? Car shipped with a bad PCS and was replaced under warranty. The replacement PCS starting to fail at ~100k miles so out of warranty and had that replaced this week. $1100usd part and half that again in labor. Will ship the removed PCS at my cost to anyone who can explore why these are failing for Tesla Model 3 owners.
Why do two of the current clamps on the ground and P/N have 4 wires coming out them? For current sensing 2 wires are enough. What is it doing?
Tesla's Megacharger charges the Semi with up to 1 Megawatt. That should make for an interesting teardown one day!
I'm surprised how big it is, it's mostly full of air! I have a Wallbox Pulsar (32A-7kW), it would basically fit inside the Zappi's empty space!
The WB inside is much denser and it has no screen or buttons, you have to use the phone app for everything.
It makes sense that they would use two relays to separate the hot wires in the ground fault protection circuit
seems someone at myenergy is a final fantasy fan
Due to chip shortages I know they had to pivot to a different micro processor, not sure if the one Dave has is the current version or previous version.
Second relay in series may be for the PEN fault isolation.
cool product with nice set of features...
Nice video, keep it up, thanks :)
No, Dave! Please don't take _me_ out... 😨
(13:52 ... ;D )
The wireless antenna is most likely to allow communicate with Myenergi's Hub. The kW from your solar panels will be limited by your inverter. I did a tutorial on how to fit a Tesla charging button to the Zappi charging plug. Theoretically speaking, if the resistor in the plug was changed from 220 ohms to 210 ohms would it be possible to draw 34 amps from the Zappi or would there be some other limitation? I note that the relays are limited to 35 amps.
Wonder if our powergrids around the world is ready for that push on Electric cars. Any ways the live show made me go watch this.
Nice one, Thanks
The Oz has the same BS as the NA with single phase even to detached homes?! Man, EU really lucked out on the electric infrastructure with even large apartments getting 3 phase power.
You can get it (3 phase), but it costs more and unless you're wanting to weld - not many would bother spending the extra.
@@--Nath-- Yeah, I know you _can_ get it, my point that it's standard to get 3 phase power, even in apartments in EU.
And no, it's not just welding: EVs benefit from it. Water heaters, electric cookers, cloths driers...
Three phase in a North American home is completely overkill, I work in industry I deal with three phase all the time. Up until this point (EV charging) there have been no loads in your home that required 3 phase. In the early 70's some monster air conditioners or three phase, that's about it. Now everything is split into multiple zones and is more efficient because of it.
@@otm646 As an example, many homes in Phoenix have 240v hi-leg delta feeding them, just for the large A/Cs that are present.
Holy crap $700‒1000 for 3 relay an ESP32 and a 555, okay and some EM clip for safety. Time to open source the design.
Open evse. They are not that cheap either.
Imagine that, a company building Electric car chargers just down the road from me and I find out from a bloke 10,000 miles away.
Only rated to 40C?!
even in australia its pretty hard for it to be 40C in the shade/shed
@@flandrble I would have thought most of these would not be installed in a shed but rather on a driveway near the vehicle to be charged. As a result,it would be likely that these are installed exposed to full direct sunlight, even in south Wales during the rare exposure of sun it is not uncommon for surfaces / enclosures etc to reach 56+ deg c. I have seen lcd failure due to this.
@@daic7274 tbh the build quality of this one to me doesn't look sturdy enough to be suitable for an outdoor installation, but it's very typical of indoor units.
I wonder can't they design a system to determine the limits of the line, e.g., base it on voltage drop or any other measurement to determine what the wiring can handle just in case someone does something like put a 30 amp charger on a 20 amp circuit but leaves the device set to 30 amps?
I think there would be too many variables for voltage drop, unless you set it really high I suppose, but that could easily be above the current rating limit. For example, dropping 5 volts on 100' of 30a wire is probably fine as that's a lot of length to absorb the heat, but if you had 5 volts of drop on 10' of wire, that could be a sign of an issue.
I get about 2-4 volts of drop when charging my car, and I only charge at 23 amps out the of circuit's max of 60 peak, 48 continuous (6 AWG copper). And I don't have far runs. The 200 amp service entry only runs 8 feet from the meter to panel, and only another 13' from the panel to EVSE. Cranking up charging to the max 40 amps of the EVSE, I usually get near 6 volts of drop. Which is a lot so I never charge that high. Everything gets warm and the car's cooling circuit kicks on a lot, which is all wasted energy. Also the voltage to my house can fluctuate ~10 volts throughout the day, so it would have to measure the voltage at the panel somehow to know what the drop between panel and EVSE is.
If the EVSE has NEMA plug, the max current should already be set from the factory, and the wiring in the house should already be up to code for that receptacle. If it's a hard wired EVSE, then more likely it's going to be installed by a licensed electrician or by a knowledgeable owner who knows what they're doing and gets it inspected by an official.
It's an interesting thought though. Perhaps another way to have a safety like that is to have temp sensors on the line side terminal block and ambient air of the EVSE. If you've undersized the wiring, the temp difference between the block and ambient would reach a certain threshold and start to limit the current.
I know the Tesla portable EVSE has a temp sensor in the plug head to throttle current if it gets too warm from a loose fitting or overloaded receptacle. At least the US versions do.