I have so much respect for the rail industry now. I never thought of the procedures necessary to operate locomotives to be at the utmost importance. It's not all about pulling accelerator levers and horn switches.
The thing that "humours" me about it is that the driver needs to remember to use the reminder device. Why isn't it automatic? Why don't they just put a "reminder signal" there? Eventually, somebody is going to die because a driver forgot to use the DRA and we all know the investigation report will say that the DRA needs to be replaced by actual signals. Same again in the talk at the end. It's the driver's responsibility to know which signals on his route have had multiple SPADs and to take extra care at them. Well, yes, but it's also the network's responsibility to re-engineer those signals so they don't require an unusual level of care. If you look at aircraft safety, the emphasis is always on designing systems that don't have these pitfalls; in contrast, here we have a railway safety video that talks about "SPAD traps". facepalm.
@@beeble2003 TPWS is being introduced alot now which will put the emergency brake on a train that passes a red signal or approaches the signal to fast.
@@RedArrow73he DRA is a reminder not a protection in itself. Having every reminder available is extremely useful, and is still used under ETCS and TVM430 In-Cab systems
Still. Even worse he says do not. Negative statements are dangerous (not) .. even if that is current discipline & procedure. Instead it should be an affirmative: remain standing, in place, hold. Imagine an airport control tower saying do not take off. That would never go wrong.
+beechface1 I don't know what country you're based in but I hear London Underground only hire from within, so maybe if you got any job going with them or any other train company first then you'd have a better chance.
@@AlonsoRules That’s a bizarre statement. Where on earth did you get that from? The train driver union is for only train drivers (ASLEF) so how can you even be in it before you get the job?
@@albusdumbledore1982 I did not, I don't think I ever will sadly. It's so hard. I've applied for countless trainee train driver jobs, but get refused. Gave up about 2 years ago.
Exactly. It's horrifying that there are known "SPAD traps" on the network, and that the solution to one of them is to remember to press the button that will remind you of the signal aspect. Oh, but that doesn't work, so their solution is to put up a sign reminding the driver to press the button. Presumably the next step will be to put up another sign, reminding the driver to read the sign that will remind him to press the button that will remind him what the signal says. Instead of just installing a bloody signal. The air industry focuses on engineering the system to avoid traps; the railways seem to be decades behind. Thankfully, they're still very safe.
They already had a solution for that specific problem as well (banner repeater), granted this was filmed over 20 years ago so you'd hope they've have since fixed that specific problem at Micheldever, I'm not holding my breath though...
The Washington, DC metro station was running on manual mode for a long time after a fatal accident several years ago. The automatic train sensor system was defective and took forever to fix through the system. I guess the signals are the only thing that keeps the trains from colliding in manual mode.
No TPWS is located at and on the approach to high risk signals which means that if you could SPAD, your train will stop before it reaches the conflicting point.
I know nothing about railways, but it amazes me that in this day and age, a driver seems dependent on seeing coloured lights by the trackside to know if it's safe to proceed. Surely the technology exists for everything a driver needs to know to be shown to him/her in the cab, with relevant warnings and overrides to reduce risks?
+EASYTIGER10 I am relatively sure this video is out of date. To my knowledge, most railroads still use colored light indications. However, they often also display signals in the cab, and many have systems to automatically stop trains that pass red signals.
+ckildegaard in cab signalling has a high cost, which the UK government has not allocated to the railway. it requires a lot of infrastructure which has been overlooked for decades. it isn't overly necessary for commuter trains and tracks under 125mph and as the existing infrastructure works, it doesn't need changing. network rail is trialling ERTMS on the cambrian line with the expectation that it will roll out nationwide, this is compatible with in cab signalling but even this will only be seen in newer trains
Notice the references to multiple ways the signals are displayed in the cab. if you don't look at them, though... Most systems around the world now automatically shut trains down if drivers ignore signals, but a) those operate after a signal is missed, so don't prevent SPADs and b) they're not typically reliable enough t operate without the possibility of overrides. Even fully automatic railways (like London's Docklands, built in the 1980s) have the possibility to override. Plus, rail equipment lifetime is measured in decades. Usually 20 years, major refurb, another 20 years.
Jasper Janssen even longer for a conventional railway. lots of track thats being replaced on the London Underground has date stamps on them that are 40s and 50s. its echoed on the National Rail network
Track, sure, but I was talking about rolling stock. And, yeah, that too often lasts longer, but it's *design life* is -- at least in NL -- typically 2*20 years.
I’m seeing lots of poor design decisions on the track. The driver gets it in the neck for a moment’s inattention. The track planners get off Scot-free for months of failing to think things through from the point of view of the driver. The remedy is simple: design human error out of the system from the start. Don’t rely on hundreds of drivers to get it right thousands of times a year.
This. One hundred times. It's amazing that, instead of fixing the problems, they produce a video about known "SPAD traps". Instead of installing an extra signal, they install a button in the cab that the driver has to remember to use. Which s/he doesn't, so they install a sign on the platform reminding them to press the button in the cab. How many hints do they need that this system is broken?
If a driver forgets what his last signal was on a route that he has "signed" for he needs more training . If there is no signal at the station you proceed after getting the right away buzzer as if the signal ahead is red.
3:00 Why look out of the window? Why not just remain in his seat? Surely I'd expect him not to be looking out until after he's been given two on the bell, not before then.
I think the IECC operator at 10:09 still worked at Network Rail (at least to 2012+) -- I swear he's the Jason from Ashford IECC in this NR vid circa 2012... --> ua-cam.com/video/b4q3i5aw6XQ/v-deo.html
I couldn't even get what the signaller said the first time around. Something about "I'll get you to shunt back when the other bloke's got the road"? What the heck does that even mean?
Because they'd rather have the driver remember to press a button that will remind him about the signal. Even though they admit this doesn't work because they've had to install a sign to remind the driver to press the button to get the reminder. Next, they'll install another sign to remind the driver to read the sign that reminds them to press the button that reminds them about the signal. Simples!
s0nnyburnett can you please not try and make stupid clever comments when you know nothing about driving trains whatsoever. O have been a train driver for three years and I don't know what you are on about. Please just don't try and make it sound like you know everything when you don't, thanks!
But surly if the freight train driver was stood there for presuming a good bit of time(becauae its a freight train and theres a good reason why it would be beyond the signal anyway) . He would be Occupying the track circuit ahead meaning the signaller wouldn't be able to make a conflicting move and the driver would just stop at the next signal which presumably would be at danger??
Also the signal man said I'll get you to set back once the other guy has the road (or something similar) then driver looks at watch and sets off. I think this dramatization was a poorly constructed example.
As a vet US railroader there are a number of things in this video that I'm absolutely shaking my head at! There are a number of serious traps that the railroad in this video has set up their train drivers for. Ones that completely fall on the railroad! Placing block signals where the driver may loose full sight of them on a regular stop. I don't care about that stupid button that reminds you about the signal!!! This should have never been set up this way in the first place! Pulling a train up to a signal to the point where the engineer can't see it is just unheard of in the US. What a dangerous set up. When a train takes a block here in the US that is his block. He owns it. Now if he stops and then moves onward to the next signal he will proceed being prepared to stop at the next signal and will assume that the next signal is red no matter what. Even if he took a green signal. It is just a dangerous situation to have a train take a signal then stop. THEN say that I am now stopped at a red signal. Again another massive trap set up by the railroad. The railroad is just begging for human error to take effect. Even with a lot of slang here our rules are strong enough to more then cover us not lead us into a trap.
Sticking your head out the window at stations is a sure way to forget what's ahead. I never do it anymore. The guard is responsible for station duties, I just wait for 2 bells and focus. Theres always some wanker saying the trains late, or asking questions to distract you.
I honestly don't think the passengers questions played a massive part. He would definitely know from his route knowledge that a signal was there and you ALWAYS check the signal before taking power
Some do at junctions and high-risk areas - its part of the train protection and warning system (TPWS). If you pass it, then the emergency brake is applied. If its not high-risk or a junction, nothing usually happens
I think the third risk is the one I like as a reminder you could be a driver or signal man that may have a learning need and find it hard understanding messages used by slang language. You need to try and use easy read and simple language for them to understand and make sure you take your time and repeat the information correctly write it down, use alphabet and radio back if you have to. As incorrect radio and information can cause injury or death.
Always remember:
If you SPAD, you’ll be going nowhere (except the hospital)
But if you have a competence fish, you should be ok...
And any place associated with the unemployed
I have so much respect for the rail industry now. I never thought of the procedures necessary to operate locomotives to be at the utmost importance. It's not all about pulling accelerator levers and horn switches.
JD L I've been inside a cab before- there are hundreds of switches and buttons
@@tristcm9633 Hundreds is an exaggeration. Assuming you are talking about the MCBs, isolation switches, etc... you very rarely ever touch them.
Blimey, the radiotelephony procedures are more lengthy than those used by aircraft pilots!
I think these blokes managed to drag it out way more than it needed to be
@@ElliottHurst I doubt it, the UK is known for that kind of thing.
@@PottersVideos2 No, it’s definitely way over the top.
@Jamey Innes No one gives a damn
@Jesus Gordon Hello second account of Jamey Inns :)
I often wonder if Paul Tyreman could bluff his way through a railway career
Lol probably
0:10 - 0:18 huge sparks / trails of sparks as that train crosses gaps in the 3rd rail. :P
Eyo that’s a huge sparks :D
*T H I C C* sparks
The driver in the first reconstruction looks as if he's being repossessed!
The thing that humors me about the DRA reminder board, is the smallest sign there...
It really jumps out at you, huh?
The thing that "humours" me about it is that the driver needs to remember to use the reminder device. Why isn't it automatic? Why don't they just put a "reminder signal" there? Eventually, somebody is going to die because a driver forgot to use the DRA and we all know the investigation report will say that the DRA needs to be replaced by actual signals.
Same again in the talk at the end. It's the driver's responsibility to know which signals on his route have had multiple SPADs and to take extra care at them. Well, yes, but it's also the network's responsibility to re-engineer those signals so they don't require an unusual level of care. If you look at aircraft safety, the emphasis is always on designing systems that don't have these pitfalls; in contrast, here we have a railway safety video that talks about "SPAD traps". facepalm.
@@beeble2003 The DRA cancels acceleration
@@beeble2003 TPWS is being introduced alot now which will put the emergency brake on a train that passes a red signal or approaches the signal to fast.
@@Owencr905 So the DRA is moving toward obsolescence?
@@RedArrow73he DRA is a reminder not a protection in itself. Having every reminder available is extremely useful, and is still used under ETCS and TVM430 In-Cab systems
I love how the driver of the freight train and the signaller appear to be reading from a script, shows they can't remember proper radio discipline!
It's a training video 🙄🤷
Still. Even worse he says do not. Negative statements are dangerous (not) .. even if that is current discipline & procedure. Instead it should be an affirmative: remain standing, in place, hold. Imagine an airport control tower saying do not take off. That would never go wrong.
My dream job is to be a train driver. I really appreciated this video. I wish I could be a train driver. So hard to get into.
+beechface1 I don't know what country you're based in but I hear London Underground only hire from within, so maybe if you got any job going with them or any other train company first then you'd have a better chance.
if you're not a union member, most companies don't want you
@@AlonsoRules That’s a bizarre statement. Where on earth did you get that from? The train driver union is for only train drivers (ASLEF) so how can you even be in it before you get the job?
5 years later... have you managed to become a train driver yet?
@@albusdumbledore1982 I did not, I don't think I ever will sadly. It's so hard. I've applied for countless trainee train driver jobs, but get refused. Gave up about 2 years ago.
"This is the way it's always been and we're not going to change a system that is not broken, even if it is broken!"
Guvmunt!
Exactly. It's horrifying that there are known "SPAD traps" on the network, and that the solution to one of them is to remember to press the button that will remind you of the signal aspect. Oh, but that doesn't work, so their solution is to put up a sign reminding the driver to press the button. Presumably the next step will be to put up another sign, reminding the driver to read the sign that will remind him to press the button that will remind him what the signal says. Instead of just installing a bloody signal. The air industry focuses on engineering the system to avoid traps; the railways seem to be decades behind. Thankfully, they're still very safe.
They already had a solution for that specific problem as well (banner repeater), granted this was filmed over 20 years ago so you'd hope they've have since fixed that specific problem at Micheldever, I'm not holding my breath though...
The real question is, why didn’t they bother installing a platform starting signal in scenario 2?
Hmm. Why not put the sunflower at the drivers feet? Would seem to be just as useful down there.
0:16 HOLY FUCKAROUND. Look at the sparks from that third rail shoe contact at the rear of the rake!
9:35 Totally isn't reading that transmission from script...
I think they both are
Plus they have to speak slow and clear to prevent any SPADs
You look at #3 and how seamless things are with Britain in the EU, and figure so much of that will change at years end.
13:38 if the signal is still on red don’t move your train at all wait until the signal is off to green light and then you can move
Except the head end is after the signal, but before the actual protected section.
@@Mixer-he2wbyes I know
Look that driver hasn’t put the DRA button on
The Washington, DC metro station was running on manual mode for a long time after a fatal accident several years ago. The automatic train sensor system was defective and took forever to fix through the system. I guess the signals are the only thing that keeps the trains from colliding in manual mode.
No TPWS is located at and on the approach to high risk signals which means that if you could SPAD, your train will stop before it reaches the conflicting point.
YAY!It's Paul Tyreman
aNd you'll bE gOiNg NoWhErE
The second scenario is where signal repeaters are a God send and I hope this station since now has one fitted.
3:02 that passenger should not distract the driver he’s trying to look back along the platform and wait to receive the ready to start signal
Ha ha ha ha. ... ... Ha ha ha ha ha.
I know nothing about railways, but it amazes me that in this day and age, a driver seems dependent on seeing coloured lights by the trackside to know if it's safe to proceed. Surely the technology exists for everything a driver needs to know to be shown to him/her in the cab, with relevant warnings and overrides to reduce risks?
+EASYTIGER10 I am relatively sure this video is out of date. To my knowledge, most railroads still use colored light indications. However, they often also display signals in the cab, and many have systems to automatically stop trains that pass red signals.
+ckildegaard in cab signalling has a high cost, which the UK government has not allocated to the railway. it requires a lot of infrastructure which has been overlooked for decades. it isn't overly necessary for commuter trains and tracks under 125mph and as the existing infrastructure works, it doesn't need changing. network rail is trialling ERTMS on the cambrian line with the expectation that it will roll out nationwide, this is compatible with in cab signalling but even this will only be seen in newer trains
Notice the references to multiple ways the signals are displayed in the cab. if you don't look at them, though...
Most systems around the world now automatically shut trains down if drivers ignore signals, but a) those operate after a signal is missed, so don't prevent SPADs and b) they're not typically reliable enough t operate without the possibility of overrides.
Even fully automatic railways (like London's Docklands, built in the 1980s) have the possibility to override.
Plus, rail equipment lifetime is measured in decades. Usually 20 years, major refurb, another 20 years.
Jasper Janssen even longer for a conventional railway. lots of track thats being replaced on the London Underground has date stamps on them that are 40s and 50s. its echoed on the National Rail network
Track, sure, but I was talking about rolling stock. And, yeah, that too often lasts longer, but it's *design life* is -- at least in NL -- typically 2*20 years.
I’m seeing lots of poor design decisions on the track. The driver gets it in the neck for a moment’s inattention. The track planners get off Scot-free for months of failing to think things through from the point of view of the driver. The remedy is simple: design human error out of the system from the start. Don’t rely on hundreds of drivers to get it right thousands of times a year.
This. One hundred times. It's amazing that, instead of fixing the problems, they produce a video about known "SPAD traps". Instead of installing an extra signal, they install a button in the cab that the driver has to remember to use. Which s/he doesn't, so they install a sign on the platform reminding them to press the button in the cab. How many hints do they need that this system is broken?
I really like your vids!
They're not his videos...
@@beeble2003 They are Paul Tyreman's videos 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@TheArkamedBat they are railtracks videos
SPAD TRAP !!!!! Also 3:33 does the driver trip on acid ?
When SWT had Turbostars
I love the early 2000s alien zap noises when there's a SPAD trap
If a driver forgets what his last signal was on a route that he has "signed" for he needs more training . If there is no signal at the station you proceed after getting the right away buzzer as if the signal ahead is red.
Yes h and s responsibility, ..... not that some of the systems are greatly lacking on behalf of signaling department.
Even with the slang on risk 3 I understood that the signalman has told him to wait for further instruction.
5:09 i wonder why they dont have a banner repeater, it would make a big difference
1st is look at the signal
2nd is look back along the platform and receive the ready to start signal
3rd check the signal again before taken power
That helps my SCR. Thanks!
@@liamchan_ no worries
Couldn't they install a repeater signal at the end of the platform at Micheldever?
Shhh, that's too sensible!
3:00 Why look out of the window? Why not just remain in his seat? Surely I'd expect him not to be looking out until after he's been given two on the bell, not before then.
SPAD TRAP!!!!
_alien sounding music_
You'll be going nowhere
I think the IECC operator at 10:09 still worked at Network Rail (at least to 2012+) -- I swear he's the Jason from Ashford IECC in this NR vid circa 2012... --> ua-cam.com/video/b4q3i5aw6XQ/v-deo.html
Even I can memorize the phonetic alphabet!
As a simulator driver for fun and not actually at the front having the responcability for passenger safety of real people , it can happen damn quick
I want to ask something about the third one, I thought the shunting signal is off
excellent presentation..............I learned a lot............
They replayed the message they did the correct radio messaging and the message between them was much clear and understanding.
I couldn't even get what the signaller said the first time around. Something about "I'll get you to shunt back when the other bloke's got the road"? What the heck does that even mean?
Check your rule book
Why no repeater signal at Micheldever?
bob bobless exactly less spads will be caused
Because they'd rather have the driver remember to press a button that will remind him about the signal. Even though they admit this doesn't work because they've had to install a sign to remind the driver to press the button to get the reminder. Next, they'll install another sign to remind the driver to read the sign that reminds them to press the button that reminds them about the signal. Simples!
So only robots can use the radio.
s0nnyburnett can you please not try and make stupid clever comments when you know nothing about driving trains whatsoever. O have been a train driver for three years and I don't know what you are on about. Please just don't try and make it sound like you know everything when you don't, thanks!
Train.Spotter.UK damn someone can't take a joke
s0nnyburnett HAHAHHA:)
0:20 what monstrosity of a train class is that
I was on the vline train and when it got to Warrigal station the Train overshot the The platform and it passed a signal at danger
But surly if the freight train driver was stood there for presuming a good bit of time(becauae its a freight train and theres a good reason why it would be beyond the signal anyway) . He would be Occupying the track circuit ahead meaning the signaller wouldn't be able to make a conflicting move and the driver would just stop at the next signal which presumably would be at danger??
Also the signal man said I'll get you to set back once the other guy has the road (or something similar) then driver looks at watch and sets off. I think this dramatization was a poorly constructed example.
@@harveyquinn5494 Agreed! Didn't actually make any sense did it!
@@2760ade no it didn't did it. Made the driver look dopey lol
As a vet US railroader there are a number of things in this video that I'm absolutely shaking my head at! There are a number of serious traps that the railroad in this video has set up their train drivers for. Ones that completely fall on the railroad! Placing block signals where the driver may loose full sight of them on a regular stop. I don't care about that stupid button that reminds you about the signal!!! This should have never been set up this way in the first place! Pulling a train up to a signal to the point where the engineer can't see it is just unheard of in the US. What a dangerous set up.
When a train takes a block here in the US that is his block. He owns it. Now if he stops and then moves onward to the next signal he will proceed being prepared to stop at the next signal and will assume that the next signal is red no matter what. Even if he took a green signal. It is just a dangerous situation to have a train take a signal then stop. THEN say that I am now stopped at a red signal. Again another massive trap set up by the railroad. The railroad is just begging for human error to take effect. Even with a lot of slang here our rules are strong enough to more then cover us not lead us into a trap.
0:16 there seems to be a big spark
Where do you get these videos?
Your the first comment on this vid btw
@@airbus350ulr no shit
Red lights are a serious thing but this guy makes it look like the world will end lol.
What does spared mean?
that music is catchy
Sticking your head out the window at stations is a sure way to forget what's ahead. I never do it anymore. The guard is responsible for station duties, I just wait for 2 bells and focus. Theres always some wanker saying the trains late, or asking questions to distract you.
Hello it’s 2024. What’s a “guard”? /s
@@OnlyJoes It is, well done 👍🏼 Where did I go wrong? Using the word ‘guard’? It may surprise you that in 2024, there are indeed still guards.
OMG that music....
Absolute banger.
What is the intro song
I'm glad im not the only person looking
When the driver getting blind to see a next signal
I honestly don't think the passengers questions played a massive part. He would definitely know from his route knowledge that a signal was there and you ALWAYS check the signal before taking power
Indeed.
That’s when if you pass the signal at danger the train will brake automatically
TPWS
Exactly
Only on junctions and high-risk areas, not low-risks like middle of the mainline. You just have to call the signaller and check
Trains back then did not.
@@TheArkamedBatand also etcs
good video
but where did they get the presenter from????
r a d a ?
He's a train manager for First Great Western so he's not really a presenter.
He's called Paul, he's an independent actor and he's shit at his job, that's why he's constantly in these types of railway videos.
spad is a rick roll
Agreed, this should be the new rick roll!
Paul Tyreman version: You'll be going nowhere
7:32 really hard to understand the slang!
+Scott Taylor That's the whole point. :)
Scott Taylor yeah, especially if it was American slang and of course he's British and not familiar with that kind of slang!
@@lexifillems it's really not hard to understand
Nice to someone calling a SPAD a SPAD for a change 😏
I like the music it goes well with the video this will hopefully teach the drivers involved in driving trains or in training.
Oh look it's Paul tyreman, am I going somewhere today?
You'll be going.....NOWHERE
DRA why is there a funny light. Put the signals in the cab
What
HS2 will be 100% cab signals.
Do the signals not have train stops?
Some do at junctions and high-risk areas - its part of the train protection and warning system (TPWS). If you pass it, then the emergency brake is applied. If its not high-risk or a junction, nothing usually happens
Who here plays TSW?
Which one, there are 5 of them (tsw 1-4, tsw steam edition or smth)
Filmed in 2006
And in cab signaling will solve a lot of this
I think the third risk is the one I like as a reminder you could be a driver or signal man that may have a learning need and find it hard understanding messages used by slang language. You need to try and use easy read and simple language for them to understand and make sure you take your time and repeat the information correctly write it down, use alphabet and radio back if you have to. As incorrect radio and information can cause injury or death.
Generation Z drivers might be ending up having the third SPAD trap if AI never existed in 2024
Would an automated DRA help and be workable
A SPAD is basically the same thing as running a red light in a car...
with a lot more serious consequences. you run a red light in a train....hundreds of people could die.
@@saintnick7 Else, the emergency braking would automatically be applied.
@@ben.taylor Only in TPWS fitted lines
*whitney green depot*
Scr fanboy spotted
Which one’s whitney green, is that the waterline one near greenslade
@@ThirdRailOfficial I am a changed man
SPAD QUICK RUN
Don't worry! According to this video there are Spad traps, so you are safe!🤣
That’s not the way to pronounce Micheldever
Gold
unlucky driver!
Bangladesh railways
0lordz
SWT 17
Wilson Melissa Jones Sandra Clark Thomas
sounds like this could all be solved with fully automated trains.