Ken Parker Archtoppery - The Neck Journey 8) Truss Rod Weight Reduction
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Here we discuss various schemes for reducing the weight of truss rods.
Links: 1) For a discussion on truss rods see Ken Parker Archtoppery - The Neck Journey 7) Reinforcing the Neck at: • Ken Parker Archtoppery...
2) For a table of total string tensions with various string types see the link above at 4:18
Your videos always make me think about what the next step might be in development... For this topic, I wonder how much tension you could put on a heavy gauge wound string before it would yield... Seems like it might be incredibly simple to thread a guitar string (or bass string) down a hole in the neck. A simple geared tuning peg-like post could provide the adjustment... I'm probably over-simplifying this, but it seems like there might be something worthwhile to chase down. Your videos are so thought provoking!!! I love it.
Thanks! We can imagine all sorts of arrangements that would balance forces from the set of strings through some length of tension-able something adjusted by an adjustable something, let your imagination go!
The physical problems of installing and adjusting your new design will include weight, complexity, access, stability in tension, fool-proofedness, cost, etc.etc. The beauty of Thaddeus McHugh's original design is it's farm-hand simplicity, right up there with duct tape and bailing wire. For example, the .078" or 2mm rods that I designed for the Fly guitars worked great, but at the cost of complexity and expense. The beauty of the original design is the ease of cutting threads on a 3/16", 5mm steel rod that easily exceed the strength it will need in service. For my purposes, a light rod was essential, and we just gritted our teeth and made it work. Like many other things, in order to beat a simple solution, you need to open your wallet.
Thanks for sharing your ideas! Do you say compression because they compress that part of the neck? As the rods are under tension (cables only work in tension) would carbon work too? I think I might try that on one of my guitars.
Right, the rod is tensioned, so it loads the structure it attaches to in compression. I know it's kind of odd, sorta like is a West wind blowing westward, or does it come from the west? (Answer, from the west.)
Carbon/epoxy has fantastic strength in both tension and compression, but to be able to apply and adjust the tension, you need to grab on to it somehow, and believe me, that's a challenge with no simple, obvious answer.
The cable truss rod is genius. How did you prevent the cable from vibrating in the channel? Silicone?
It's probably in constant contact with the wood, so consequently unable to move. Therefore, no vibration.
I used 1/16" 19 strand galvanized steel cable (stronger than stainless steel) that was coated with a thin skin of vinyl. I pushed them into a close-fitting slot and never had any errant vibration problems, although it did seem like it could be a worry.
Good evening Sir Ken, What a great way to unwind on a Friday evening. Speaking of necks, I have one of your late 90's Nitefly's inbound from Colorado this weekend. It only took me 24 years to finally own one, since our time back in the CA Guitars days. This Nitefly has some kind of neck damage. I may reach out to you if I get stumped. Again great content. Cheers.
Please do! Hope all goes well with it. Everything is fixable!
I get it! Just like pre-stressed concrete sections in buildings, etc. Another genius concept adapted for guitar making from Professor Parker.
Ha! Where's my flat hat?
That “truss rod” cable in the Fly is pretty ingenious!
Total pain in the @ss, though.
Seems like truss rods always fail at the threads. Isn't there some kind of system using a wedge arrangement around (I think Warmoth uses one like that)? But there goes your simplicity.
Some truss rods might have built in defects or hidden stress risers, but I'll bet almost anything that the vast number of truss rod thread failures can be attributed to the destabilizing and chemical modification of truss-rod-adjusting humans by CH3CH2OH, otherwise known as ethanol. Another prime suspect is dry, non-lubricated threads along with a little FeO2. The solution? Sobriety for the TRA adjusting human, and a drop of oil on the threads. It's a miracle. Threads, after all, are no more than a rolled up wedge, so wedges it is!
Ken, what are your thoughts on using dyneema instead of steel cable? Its used on sailboat rigging...
As a life-long sailor, you can imagine that this plan got plenty of consideration! Although dyneema is very strong, it is outperformed in tension by Zylon PBO, and so this would make it my first choice. As always, grabbing on to a rope is the problem, and it just looked to be too problematic to pursue 30 years ago, although it might be worth another look. Here I'll copy my reaponse to another similar question....
Thanks! We can imagine all sorts of arrangements that would balance forces from the set of strings through some length of tension-able something adjusted by an adjustable something, let your imagination go!
The physical problems of installing and adjusting your new design will include weight, complexity, access, stability in tension, fool-proofedness, cost, etc.etc. The beauty of Thaddeus McHugh's original design is it's farm-hand simplicity, right up there with duct tape and bailing wire. For example, the .078" or 2mm rods that I designed for the Fly guitars worked great, but at the cost of complexity and expense. The beauty of the original design is the ease of cutting threads on a 3/16", 5mm steel rod that easily exceed the strength it will need in service. For my purposes, a light rod was essential, and we just gritted our teeth and made it work. Like many other things, in order to beat a simple solution, you need to open your wallet.
Watching this video has the potential to improve my "Scrabble" score.
Does it count if things are mizsppeld?
Nice! I have been playing in my head with the idea of a cable trussrod, its nice to see you have done it previously!
The cable is great once you're able to take out the stretch, which is considerable, and will requite a long threaded adjuster to make it work. Good stuff, though, and very light for its strength!
Hello! If u don't mind me asking, what did you use in your 6 string basses? Thanks a lot
Necks were cedar, redwood, fir, spruce, pick one. Bodies were poplar, curly maple, Lombardy poplar, spruce, cedar, pick one. So the instruments were made of 2 pieces of wood, kind of like auditioning duets.
Necks were externally reinforced with maple or ebony veneers at first, then carbon fiber and epoxy. Big fat learning curve, it was a lot of fun!
I feel like I've watched 100s of hours of guitar building, and Ken is the only person who ever even talks about how they work, and explores the options for making them better.
Well Ken off the bat was a thinker, he quickly grew out of copying everything the way 95% of "Luthiers" do. And in so he became out design and engineering of the guitar since he was coming from the ground up.
Thanks! I am fascinated with all the many little things that add up to the great experience of using a great guitar
Why do many musicians prefer an adjustable truss rod over a non adjustable carbon reinforced neck that doesn't move? I bought a 1924 Gibson in 1986 and have never adjusted the neck. In 1991 I designed a non adjustable carbon neck, not as good but not that different from yours. I was told by my luthier boss that it wouldn't be accepted. After a long absence from luthiery I've now built my design into instruments for myself. They have passed 2 to 3 years of seasonal change and I can't see any issues. I am going to trial the Douglas Fir infill soon. Also, there is a youtube luthier that went down the path of using the carbon D tube. His instruments sold but later some of those customers requested a truss rod neck. His trials also yielded positive results. I have designed, built and fixed things all my life from electronics to violins and I'll never understand the interpretations of the consumer?
Here's where we can all agree that sometimes things just work great a their simplest embodiment, and sometimes, they won't. I spent many years optimizing necks for serious guitarists, and there are more troubles than you might imagine! Ideally, truss rods are a "set-and-forget" adjustment, but life in the real world isn't always ideal.
Thanks for your time.
Brilliant! Truss rods are the bane of my existence, especially these double rods that everybody uses now. If, like me, you want the strap button at the SG or ES-335 location (for playability reasons) you can bet that you're going to have neck dive problems (unless your body wood is something heavy enough to get you a sore shoulder). Kinda hard to play a guitar well if you're constantly having to hold the neck up.
When I first tried to define the Fly design, low weight and guitar balance were clearly design goals I felt I had to take seriously. It's hard to get it all right, none of us have, I don't think, but you gotta try, right?
In particular, I agree that trying to play while non-stop fighting the position of the instrument is infuriating. It's really hard to expect a balanced design if the neck is heavy.
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 And of course tuner weight is a big concern, as well. I love locking tuners, but can't use 'em. Too heavy. I always change out the tuner buttons for plastic ones for that reason too.
Me too, too. I always include a set of metal buttons in case of plastic cracking problems. Sadly, some of these will most likely fail.
Insanely good ! thank you so much for sharing !
At your service...
Did the T bar and Square bar Work? Did they keep the neck straight and firm?
They did add some stiffness, but at the cost of added weight. I think of them as a credible step in the evolution of the modern guitar neck. The fact that they no longer are widely used, and have been replaced by modern, lightweight designs, I think is the answer to your question.
For a non-adjustable neck reinforcement, in my opinion, the "D Tube" stands head and shoulders above the other choices, as it is many times stiffer than any steel component, and, unlike steel, weighs less than the neck wood that is removed to install it. Hard to beat!
dragonplate.com/carbon-fiber-d-tube
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 I'm "" building"" a guitar in a CAD program,
and thought I had an original idea of a T shaped or square shaped metal beam in the neck,, but then saw on the archtoppery video that the Martin company had that design in their early guitars. Thanks for the D shape Carbon link.,,,,I'll Look into it.
Be nice if could totally factor out neck movement in a design.
Erring on the side on indestructibility is a good life choice 😂
Who can argue with this?
Good idea for the multi wire cable truss rod! Does this concept induce some kind of simpathic vibration?
I used 1/16" 19 strand galvanized steel cable (stronger than stainless steel) that was coated with a thin skin of vinyl. I pushed them into a close-fitting slot and never had any errant vibration problems, although it did seem like it could be a worry.
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 that makes sense. I like this concept very much . Thanks M. Parker
Why all the concern about the weight of the truss rod?
The balance of the instrument seems quite important to me, and sometimes a heavy set of tuners plus a double rod makes the neck too heavy to be comfortable to play. No one wants to be bothered holding up a heavy neck while playing. The current term for this kind of out-of-balance condition seems to be "neck dive", and lots of players are sensitive to it!
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 Thanks Ken, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on weighty headstocks adding to sustain. Is it an urban myth?
With the Titanium Rod. Why not peen the anchor in place. Actually I’m planning the thread a tiny section, Then Loctite, then peen.
I have done what you suggest, and it worked fine, peening, and then some sharp punch marks to drive everything tighter.
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 thanks as always Ken. Nice knowing it should work. I have not worked titanium before so wasn’t sure.
It's the darnedest stuff, and no pleasure to work with! It's soft, but doesn't like to cut, it. tears. It has super-low thermal conductivity, you can hold a short piece in your hand and blast it with a torch! Who heard of a metal that doesn't conduct heat? This is an extra problem in machining, as the tools heat up quickly and then get hotter. Also, it won't abide a small clean up cut that we would use on other metals to get a high quality surface. Ir's just weird, but it is 40% lighter than steel by volume, and just as strong, so it does present temptations. It does thread tolerably well, as threading tools take big cuts, but tends to tear at the roots, causing stress - risers, Sheesh.
@@kenparkerarchtoppery9440 thank you for the the information to ponder. I may start with Ti Threaded rod instead of trying to cut threads. Knowing me I’ll try both ways. I have some machining experience so that helps.
I’ve started drawings inspired by your adjustable neck as well. Some changes to fit my needs.
pretty cool
Thanks.
Love this series. 👍
Thanks! Happy to be of service!
These videos are absolute gems. Hopefully, some future luthier will watch these and continue Ken's solid-body development and design a guitar as beautiful and amazing as the Parker Fly.
Thanks so much! Glad you're finding Archtoppery useful, and I share your hope!
I will bet my entire life savings that Ken is the only luthier that knows the ins and outs of machining and welding titanium. Again, we have a Machinist as wood worker. In other words, Unicorn! These videos are always such fun! Thank you Ken and team.
Machining, yes, welding, heavens, no! I can't weld my way out of a paper bag, but thanks for imagining that I'm up to the task! These shows are big fun to make, glad you're enjoying them, and you're welcome!
I never once considered this exercise. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge!
Sure thing!
Thanks again, Ken! It’s always a pleasure to learn from you.
My Pleasure.
🫶
Neck dive and balance.
When did necks first start learning to dive?