Til Linderman, the lead singer of Rammstein was a competitive swimmer in his youth and he detailed how the cocktails on drugs he was given fucked up his system for a long time.
@Stierlitz exactly. While there is no doubt that western athletes were on the roids, they did them individually, they didn't have the weight of a countries medical and security apparatus to ensure they got the cutting edge drugs and the best way to avoid getting caught
I have never had to stop watching one of your videos before but I had to this time after three minutes… East German original documents that became available after the fall of the iron curtain show Koch used the anabolic steroid Oral-Turinabol (4-Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone) from 1981 to 1984 with dosages ranging from 530 to 1460 mg/year… this is where you should start, and if you think these documents are correct, this is where you end…
Yep, they were all at it. Renate Stecher and Barbel Wochtl were the other two of the triumvirate. East Germany dominated women's athletics. If you didn't know that they were busted years ago the fact that German women are now useless in world terms tells you all you need to know. I don't understand why these "records" are allowed to stand.
There are still some issues. 1) It looks like she didn't suffer any of the major side effects. 2) Turinabol is a milder steroid than Jarmila, who looked like a man. Yet she was still faster 3) Many users were given it and told they were vitamin. If she were one of them, she would not know. 4) Torinabol stays in your system longer along with being milder. Does it give much more of an advantage than HGH? Doubt it. 5) Being the fastest of a bunch of drug takers is still impressive. Similar to Ben Johnson and Mark McGwire. 6) By now someone should've beat this record with the advancement in track technology, nutrition, equipment, foot wear, training, etc. Ben Johnson mark's was supposed to be untouchable but Bolt, Blake and Gay matched or better it. Powell got close. The fact nobody is close now puts her in the same athletic freak category as FloJo except she did it for so many years.
East Germany was putting out women athletes who looked more muscular than a lot of the men in this era. Doping has long been an issue, but East Germany took it to another level back during this time. Their state run programs encouraged runners to use PEDs and they had a very successful masking program that was just as complicated as the doping itself.
@@elmulakke The problem continues in countries all over the world. In recent years, the long-distance running program of African runners has been investigated and the extent of the doping problem surprised the world. What happens is that the sport associated with the doping issues suffers and as prize money and endorsement deals continue to increase, so has the temptation of other athletes, in all sports, to use performance enhancing drugs. Sadly, the result has been a public loss of interest in the sports and the toll it has taken on the athletes who didn't know about the long term effects has taken many lives of the athletes long before they should have died. The PEDs are becoming more advanced and harder to detect, or taken during times when the athletes are not checked. In many countries, the agencies that are in charge of checking the top athletes have become involved in the problem.
Koch was dosing on Oral Turinabol (aka CDMT) from 1981 to 1984. Berendonk & Franke saved documents written by the East German drug research programme and she listed by name in those documents listing her dosing from 530 to 1460 mg per year under State Plan Topic 14.25. She can say she didn't take it, but she would be hard pressed to not admit that she received 'vitamins' under her training program. The thing about CDMT is it is designed as a tablet.
That would put her at the equivalent of an 18-25 year old man. I'm most impressed by the dose. High but not crazy high where health problems or over masculinization would emerge. Very conservative edge.
@@miltkarr5109you contradicted yourself...yes very conservative edge at best. Oral turinabol was the weak version of dbol...even if she was on the higher end as documented it was a low hit.. it didn't make her equivalent to an 18 to 25 male...The 1460mg for the yr possibly cycled into months but still low
I remember seeing Koch and Kratochvilova run in the '80s. The entire Soviet bloc (Russian, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.) was hopped up on steroids and "blood packing." It wasn't even that much of a secret. it was all sports, not just track & field. There were no tests that could detect all of the different steroids then so their federations just dared people to prove it. Occasionally someone would get caught in the urine testing, but not enough of them. Of course Koch is going to deny she was doping. That's like Kratochvilova saying she was just "a big country farm girl" and came by her muscle mass naturally. It was the stance of the Soviet Union that if they couldn't win the cold war - they'd prove their superiority with athletics. You know...since that worked out so well for Hitler in 1936..
А американцы питались только святым духом? О , Ха- Ха- ха. Просто тогда влияние СССР и США было равным в международных структурах. Льюис в 1988 попадался трижды, ему все сошло с рук. , Гатлин попадался дважды, все сошло с рук. Бегун на 400м Петтигрю признался что принимал допинг и эстафетная команда США лишилась великого рекорда 4 по 400м 254.20 1998( против чего я категорически против) и нескольких титулов чемпионов мира( я тоже против этого) Все были в равных условиях. Но социалистическая система в СССР и ГДР позволяла получить доступ к спорту широким слоям населения и система отбора талантов была лучше чем в США и странах Запада. Кстати в 1984 году американцы вывели из под проверок на допинг 80 проб своих спортсменов и это общеизвестный факт. Да и сам допинг появился в США. Так что не надо ля- ля
Its the same today, but they just use different stuff. Acting like pro athletes are clean today is just dumb. Anyone who understand even in slightest human performance and can read studies and look at the testing records must understand that everyone in pro sports dope today.
Thank you for beating me to this massive fraud that for some reason no one likes to address. All we hear about is FloJo "suspicions" but these Soviet Bloc broads were literally running as pros and doing everything possible to get as fast as possible.
There was also no out of competition testing and the eastern block tested their athletes before any competition. Anyone testing positive withdrew due to a mystery injury.
@jgray2718 yep!...but the east Germans are used as the scapegoat... East Germany had a state sponsored programme of steroid use ...many athletes weren't aware of what they were taking ...till it was too late . You can't scrap world records...because so many athletes worldwide were on Something '. .
Out of the top 10 fastest 400m times ever she holds 5! The soviet woman in 2nd in this race also ran the 9th fastest time ever in this same race. Only 3 of the top 10 times ever were ran outside the 1980's. All Eastern block countries were taking performance enhancing drugs at the time as well as some U.S. athletes. Every womens world record from the 100m to the 800m (not including hurdle races) was set in the 80's.
This is a bit like weightlifting. Most records were set in the 80's by eastern bloc countries. They have re-arranged the weight classes to nullify these but outside of a few exceptions almost all the best lifts were done during this era. Lifters like Lasha who were also caught using PED's aren't able to use the same types of drugs and for the duration that those athletes were. Kind of impressive he was able to match those all time lifts on lesser PED use I guess.
As were the world records in long jump, high jump, shot put, discus, 4x400, and heptathlon. Since then the javelin has been changed and hammer, pole vault, and triple jump were not events at worlds or Olympics.
Living in the Soviet bloc, during those times, their athletes would be under orders to take whatever PED, prescribed by the State Doctors....it was POLICY. Their athletes were propaganda objects of the State and were treated like machines. Any refusal of these tenets, would result in banishment of the athlete and his/her family. ....and we all know the word Gulag and Stasi, don't we.
Exactly. I've been making that same point on these videos. Check out my comment. They were used and abused. I used to hate them but I now feel great pity for them.
Yes they were but FloJo was also on drugs. I propose to get a tennis-like "era division" in athletics. The new era should start from 1989 when random testing has been introduced. I just don't believe anything that happened before that regardless of nationality.
@@honzatoman3602 obv she's juiced to the gills but that build she has kinda exists right in women sports? That Russian runner sticks out like a sore thumb
If Koch hadn't broken it then we'd still be talking about the 47.99 of Kratochvilova as the Czech was an embodiment of the caricature image of a soviet era athlete, she was built like Ben Johnson.
Maybe she was accelerating at the end. Secretariat, who won the triple crown in 1973 was actually running faster the last quarter mile of the Kentucky Derby than the first quarter.
Well, Secretariat was a freak of nature. His heart was twice as large as other race horses. His lungs were larger too. He could pump way more blood and oxygen as other horses. The 1973 Belmont Stakes (which I watched live on TV) was the greatest sporting even in history, in my opinion. If you watch it on UA-cam, take note of what happens in the back stretch. He's neck and neck with Sham, then something amazing happens. Secretariat suddenly puts himself in a totally different gear, his legs start stretching out, he starts pulling effortlessly away from Sham. He and Sham were already WAY ahead of the other horses by this time, and yet Secretariat was just warming up. He was, and is the greatest athlete to ever live!!
Marita Koch never failed a drug test. Marlies Gohr never failed a drug test. Both were either World Champion, Olympic Champion or both, as well as holding multiple world records from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s. This record has stood the test of time. What is clear is Koch's physical appearance never changed from scrawny and thin too pumped up and muscular as did many suspected drug cheats of the 80's era. Jarmila Kratochvilova on the other hand looked the exact opposite and was very muscular and still holds the 800m W.R, yet could not defeat Koch's 400m WR. I say this often, that the idea drug abuse was going on in the Eastern Bloc and not in the UK and US was almost laughable. The standards and abilities of producing and testing and avoiding capture of drugs you would imagine were far superior in the western nations. Therefore my opinion is any negative test of a Marita Koch or Kratochvilova is as valid and trustworthy as a test of Carl Lewis or Jackie Joyner. Differences in the doping of athletes are the main issue. Those ion the west had the choice, those in East Germany and the like had none.
I agree that Koch's physical appearance is not eye-popping and obviously suspicious in the same way as Kratochvilova. She was also a dominant performer, and perennial record breaker throughout her career, unlike Flo-Jo who underwent a sudden and massive improvement, before disappearing out of sight. However, it is simply impossible to look objectively at the evidence that has come to light about state-sponsored doping in the GDR during that era, and believe Koch was clean. I do believe she was an exceptional athlete in her own right, and grew up in an environment which - aside from any drugs - was focused single mindedly on identifying and grooming world class athletes, at the expense of all else in the athlete's life. The West could not compete with this brutal dedication. But yes, the PEDs were very likely what then made the difference between 'extremely good/talented' and 'best ever'.
@@bram99494 What im saying is that after the reunification of germany all this started to become evidenced. That will never happen for Flo Jo or Carl Lewis despite the whole world knowing they were definitely at it. I do feel sorry for the sprinters in particular. Gohr or Koch never looked pumped like Flo Jo. Not to mention the gold going to Kondratseyeva at Moscow still not convinced Gohr lost. They had no choice or knowledge if they were doped certainly before the weight of the nation was on them and those that refused to continue suffered at the GDR discarding them like trash. I also feel for Lance Armstrong despite all his denials etc even Marion Jones. I find it hard to believe anyone was clean in that Tour era. The pressure for a small nation like GDR or the massive money, sponsors etc that came with being Carl Lewis or Jones, armstrong and a massive expecting US public its understandable they were under huge pressure to shut up. I feel these records should stand. Koch 400m will go sometime, and all the rest. I believe Koch and Gohr were exceptional, no one says Evelyn Ashford was doping yet she clearly overtook Gohr after Helsinki. Its as simple as this. No positive test no crime. We cant have Eastern Bloc athletes whose nations became westernized penalised because it was opened to the media while the US,UK,EU PR machine keeps our athletes 70s,80s doping under the carpet. Allan Wells was my hero as a kid and he looked pumped and id bet hes the last white guy who will ever t win Olympic Gold at 100m.
In practice the Western athletes choice was accept an alternative career. The rate of steroid abuse was exposed in the 1988 Seoul Olympics during the appeal of Ben Johnson. Every Olympic athlete in the 1988 Seoul Olympics was given an endocrine test, hormone balance, gross steroid abuse causes a hormone imbalance, 88% failed. Given athletes in the long distance events, and high skill events, archery, shooting, and others, would be disadvantaged by gross steroid abuse, the rate among sprinters, and explosive field events, shot put, javelin, and others, had to be greater than 88%. Numerous other drugs were very difficult to detect, especially among teenagers. For example, Growth Hormone.
Every record, since the 80's, from any nation should be suspect. PEDs are endemic, the difference between then and now is better understanding of how to avoid testing positive.
Not just suspect any more. We have the actual GDR data which identifies all of the athletes and what junk they were forced to take. They were all forcibly doped without any consideration to their health. Tokens for the glorification of the regime.
The reason the record still stands out is because at that time it was still quite easy to use massive doses of steroids without getting caught. Contrary to what many people may think there's no modern drug that comes close for building strength and explosive power (or muscle mass).
Particularly for women. Men already have lots of testosterone, so steroids will give them a little boost. For women, it’s a massive boost. That’s why it’s the women’s records that still hold.
This doping happened not only in east germany at this time. see Florence Griffith-Joyner, Ben Johnson, And I claim almost all sprinters in this decade were mainly doped.
@@stevenleslie8557 Doping may not have been sponsored by the US government but it was just as widespread and condoned by officials. Just ask Carl Lewis who, by his own admission, tested positive three times at the 1988 US Olympics trials yet was allowed to go to the Olympics two months later. Remember, he's the guy who was awarded the gold medal in the 100m when Ben Johnson was disqualified for doping. Speaking of American athletes, Lewis also said "There were hundreds of people getting off. Everyone was treated the same."
Anyone who lived through the late 70's and into the 80's watching T&F then seeing so many Athlete's banned for substance abuse knows what records were juiced results it was obvious.
Never forget that you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse, not even with doping. Marita Koch was an outstanding sprinter even without steroids. With them, she became superhuman.
I completely agree. Even if Marita Koch was on steroids at this time, apparently everyone else was too, and she still won a 400m race by about 50m. She was a remarkable runner either way.
It is no surprise that the record has lasted. Firstly, we have to accept that the coaches in the GDR used every chemical aid their state funded sports science industry could come up with. That is an indisputable fact. However, in addition those same coaches came up with ways of training in the sprint events - 60m to 400m. Read Charlie Francis' book "Speed Trap" which is mainly about his relationship with Ben Johnson. In this book Francis is very open about the huge amount of knowledge he absorbed from the GDR coaches. Their methods were very different from those used by most sprint coaches in the western world.
In an interview she explained how the short distance indoor races were part of the preparation for the outdoor 400. It was based on the theory that most top athletes have the same maximum speed. So you have to win the race on the first 60 meters.
The majority of athletes in history have been using (and are still using) every chemical aid they can get away with, or think they can get away with. Even going back to the late 1800s baseball players were using performance enhancers. They have just changed what they use and how they use as laws, rules and tests have changed.
If technique mattered, where have all the great German sprinters gone since then? What Francis "learned" from the GDR is how to use steroids for his own runner , Ben Johnson, arguably the most infamous cheater of all time.
It will be very hard to break.but Sydney McLaughlin I have my eyes on to break that archaic 400m world record.. Sydney is extraordinary. and it takes a extraordinary athlete to do it. So I think she is the one to do it.agree guy's?
One thing that astonishes me about the 800 meter WR is that it was set with slightly negative splits (56.82 and 56.46, with a very fast last 100) indicating that it could have been quite a bit faster with better pacing.
@@WithBACON I think that negative split was actually the best possible pacing in this situation. She wanted to take place in a 200m race, but had an injury that didn't allow a fast acceleration which allowed her to not start the 800m race too hard, allowing that negative split world record.
@@jojolords4523 Generally speaking, the way to run 800 meters as fast as possible (at the world-class level) is to have the 1st lap about 2-3 seconds faster than the second. This holds true for women as well as men. In this race ideal pacing would have been something like 27-28-28.5-29. JK's 200 PR was 21.97; obviously an opening 200 in the 27 range (or slightly faster) would not have been a problem.
@@WithBACONyou have to also remember the 800n WR holder could also run 48s 400m the first lap must have felt like a slightly harder jog to her hence the negative spilt
It's also not controversial or speculative. It is a historically known fact that nobody, absolutely nobody in GDR athletics had a say in whether or not they wanted it. They had regular "vitamine shots", which they weren't allowed to ask about what it was. Those who did or wanted to refuse these shots faced the everything a dictatorship can do to make its citicens comply.
I would like to see a video analyzing Coe's 800 race from 1981. It still stands as the 3rd in the all-time list. And Jonathan Edward's triple jump world record.
Records by Coe and his Great Britain teammates Cram and Ovett are certainly suspect. The same is true of Lasse Viren and his Finland teammates as well as many distance runners prior to 1985. Many were lab rats using blood doping but who and to what extent remains unknown. But this became a Europe normal practice once distance runners became aware of Viren's use of blood. This led to the banning in 1985. Of course eventually EPO came around and more cheating and bans. There is one World Championship 1500 where they verified subsequent use of EPO or similar drugs with better testing of saved samples. In that one race 9 of the women were identified as verified cheats with two undergoing final stages of their hearings. This was the first time it brought the focus on African nations. In that race the first clean runner was a Canadian in 3rd place. The next clean runner was an American in 7th place. The problem is nobody can go back and recreate the excitement of the race of what would have happened and giving them medals many years afterwards without a stadium cheering is not justice. Now we have super shoes making a mockery of track. Winners are being created in a lab as Nike, Adidas and other shoe companies acknowledge that they continue to try for technological advancements to give their sponsored runners an unfair advantage. It has gotten so bad that the shoes are now being designed to be broken in and worn by world class distance runners with a short run of 5 to 6 miles. Then to be used in only one race for a marathon, 10K or 5K. This happened in the Chicago Marathon when the World Record was just set. But the governing bodies overseeing track and field like these shoes as it has brought back viewers and money into the sport and great profits for shoe companies. But will the International Olympic Committee allow their use as they are creating fake records which the shoe companies have acknowledged has occured since 2017.
@@philipgates988 Eamonn Coghlan was the best Irish miles back then and they used to call him the chairman of the boards because of his ability to win the indoor mile. The other best Irish runner was John Treacy.
The era of the greatest injustice to track and field. How could anyone with a conscience still refer to this as a world record when the truth is always staring us in the face
Because literally everyone capable of setting a track and field record is on some kind of juice. We're really gonna pick and choose which juiced athletes are too much and which are just fine?
The woman who came second ran 48.27 so should probably feature on the all time list though I appreciate it says since 1985. Amazing they ran those times from lanes 1 and 2.
@@jasondearham8243 Are you sure you want an answer? OK: it refers to the fact that two words end in a similar sequence of syllables, where said sequence starts with the final stressed syllable and includes all remaining syllables. In this stricter definition of rhyme, the sequences sound similar and have also the same spelling. In a looser rhyme, in spite of different spelling, they sound similar, as in the case I presented, and also in the case of a lot of popular songwriting. I hope this satisfies your curiosity. Cheers. PS: And it’s not “u”, it’s “you”. If you’re going to be picky about language, at least use a higher standard of writing.
As they used to say back in the 80's ..."If you're not on it, you're not in it." She, Koch, may not have known that she was being doped, but many GDR athletes admitted that after taking the "Pills" they were ordered to take, their performances increased dramatically. The women's voices deepened. Koch's autopsy will eventually reveal all.
Unless there is a medical reason for an autopsy, such as sudden unexpected death, which applied in the case of Flo Jo, autopsy will only be made if the relatives request it.
Oh she mos def knew. I mean u cant give a profesional runner "vitamins" and all her records are getting better and then breaking wr and be like "hmmm i think those pills are helping out a bit" she knew what was up, same as everyone else that competed back then ......she was the best of that time though
@@fungus_am0nguz644 Koch and Jamila wrote letters, I learned this from one of the other comments on this page, in which they referred to their consumption of PEDs. The Stasi records by themselves would not be conclusive proof as a number of Eastern German athletes had adverse reactions and didn't take their prescribed medications. The letters show they knew and consumed.
One of britains top athletic coaches told me many years ago it would be nearly impossibe to win at national level let alone international level without using drugs in most athletic events,britains most famous sprinter generated so much money for the sport the governing body turned a blind eye and even let him know if he was about to be tested so he could pull out of the meet with injury
wells or christie? Drew McMaster Wells Scottish team mate stated that Wells was on it, have no doubt Christie was on the juice as well, runs a 9.87 at 32 but supposedly clean, Johnson does 9.79 with his electrifying start but is the only one juiced, it's BS aint it!
@@tonyfranklin8306 ,Christie ,this fella told me ,he was in the b squad at his athletics club before teaming up with the fella that changed his diet lol and pretty soon after that he was the golden boy ,first world class sprinter since wells ,it's when itv used to screen all the big events ,the Oslo grand Prix etc he said if Christie was running it raised the viewing figures so much as well as sponsors etc the authorities wouldn't dare touch him ,bit like the woman middle distance runner that was a known cheat got caught a couple of times and got off light and ended up getting on the queens honours list lol
@@freddieboxingattkof8111 yup, sport is business, businesses like soccer, rugby union, gridiron, baseball, boxing etc have been doping and will continue to dope as the mechanisms that keep the money rolling in will protect the business no matter who is sacrificed. the odd big name here and there (Johnson particularly) that makes punters think things are clean or the controls are credible to keep things as clean as possible, and also to deflect. That Johnson was the only one supposedly doping in that final was frankly a joke, especially since Lewis was a regular on the naughty step.
Surely Vladykina in 2nd who was taking ground off her was also doping, look at the subsequent record... When Marita Koch set the world record for the women's 400 meters with a time of 47.60 seconds on October 6, 1985, in Canberra, Australia, the athlete who finished second was Olga Vladykina (née Bryzgina) from the Soviet Union. She ran a time of 48.27 seconds in that race, which was also an exceptionally fast time, making her the third-fastest woman in history at that point. Olga Bryzgina had an illustrious career following that race: Olympic Success: Olga Bryzgina won the gold medal in the 400 meters at the 1988 Seoul Olympics with a time of 48.65 seconds. She also played a key role in helping the Soviet Union win gold in the 4x400 meters relay at the 1988 Olympics, where they set a world record that still stands today (3:15.17). World Championships: In 1987, at the World Championships in Rome, Bryzgina won gold in the 4x400 meters relay with the Soviet team. European Championships: Bryzgina also had success at the European Championships, winning gold in the 400 meters in 1986 and in the 4x400 meters relay in 1986 and 1990. Olga Bryzgina is widely regarded as one of the greatest 400-meter runners of all time, and her rivalry with Marita Koch is one of the most memorable in the history of women's athletics.
koch went off far too quickly and ran sub 23 for the first 200, had she ran a negative split out of the blocks probs would have gone under 47s as she faded badly in the last 60m or so.
This is a well presented history of the time and as a Track Aficionado from the 60’s through the 2020’s. I saw Ludmilla at an International meet in Eugene Oregon’s and it was obvious steroids that made her so strong. I ran in the 4 minute Miler era and as a distance runner in that era. Ludmilla admitted it and died young. So looking at Koch and this time I believe it was the perfect combination of Athletic performance build up and an East German mercedes class drug program which took her below 48. Read on yes thought I remembered that East German story about their evidence of CMBT
Don't forget the track and altitude : the fact the best time Koch achieved the year before and after, was the same, gives away the importance of having an ideal track, when new, for a fast time.
The fact that she was doping has been proven. There are East German records that detail the doping. 7:35 ....FINALLY .....gets to "performance enhancing drugs". "Overwhelming evidence which suggests a governmental state sponsored building program. And over the years, many athletes have actually come forward, admitting it's doping." So the East German scientists figure out how to hide the many drugs used ...making them undetectable at that time. These training records have been published showing this activity .....there should be no "statute of limitations" to stripping ALL records ......particularly when there was INTENT ......which very clearly there was. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marita_Koch "The documents list the dosage and timetables for the administration of anabolic steroids to many athletes of the former DDR, with one of them being Marita Koch. According to the sources, Koch did use the anabolic steroid Oral-Turinabol (4-Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone) from 1981 to 1984 with dosages ranging from 530 to 1460 mg/year." There is one other factor. Marita Koch does NOT appear to have the typical female body structure. She has no "hips" and has much wider shoulders than most every female. The muscle mass all over, particularly in the thighs and shoulders for driving when she is running is very clearly over-developed ....yet lean. She is the ideal candidate for doping. It's too bad she would not admit to cheating. It shows her character .....untrustworthy. She is not deserving of any respect ....and the same applies to the Olympic organization. .
One point to consider, probably best phrased as a question: the 47.60 400m performance happened in Canberra, Australia. That track is at an altitude of 1,900 feet above sea level. Could that altitude have influenced the finishing times for the first two placed finishers who ran PR's (due to thinner air, and less aero resistance)? An online calculator suggests a benefit of 1 - 2 10ths of a second benefit over 400m at that altitude. This question isn't meant to detract from the obvious doping debate.
Very very salient point. It is my view that this fact in addition to being doped to her eyebrows is why this record WILL NEVER EVER be broken or even approached.
Altitude is a point almost no one realizes, also, it was a brand new super quick track on which even club runners had run stunning times just a few days prior to the WC meet.
@@markcaporale2559 The advantage would be training there and then running at a much lower altitude immediately after. Granted though, if you are not used to the altitude you will not do well, but that would be a case of underperforming until you got acclimatized to your "normal" self.
Doped to the gils. Athletes are getting better every year. Better training, better equipment, better nutrition, etc. Just look at the improvements in performance in other sports. All these track and field records that have held up 30 years mean one thing.
Give me a break!! why is it controversial? Because a non-US athlete has it? Is Flo Jos' 10:49 in the 100m controversial as well? That record has lasted for over 35 years.
The fact that she took a victory lap and seemed hardly out of breath after such a fast time, was a suspicious sign that something was not normal. Who breaks 30+ world records? She's never gonna admit her guilt.
I was there. Without a doubt the greatest womens 400m ever run. Attended a sport science symposium that was a part of the World Championships in Canberra Australia1985. Three world records in three days! Met and talked with East German coaches, managers and athletes. Head coach provided the training program the team used to prepare for the championship. They were very open about what they did. Marita was a really kind, generous person. He training schedule would have exhausted most male athletes - even today! Of course steroids were used. Problem was IAAF medical testing and IOC medical testing was very amateur.
Thanks for your video. It brings back memories. I am astonished that IAAF (or whatever the sanctioning body) said they'll only act if the athlete admits to cheating. Why would the athlete admit to cheating and disgrace himself/herself? Why would the IAAF bother to issue such an idiotic statement. On a more positive note, I suggest the 1991 long jump competition between Mike Powell & Carl Lewis at the World T&F Championships in Tokyo. That was, in my mind, by far the greatest long jump duel ever.
The appeal of Ben Johnson revealed the answer. Every athlete in the 1988 Seoul Olympic games was given an endocrine test, hormones go out of balance with gross steroid abuse, 85% failed. Practically every winner, from every country, was an abuser. Given the IOC and IAAF relied on exciting races to attract punters, they had, and have, strong motives to be implicitly compliant. Additionally every country paying the bill was compliant.
Would be interesting to now the drug regimes of various athletes of the time... Kratochvilova ended up looking like a fella- yet Koch looked like a typically fit female...
That's the thing. The GDR sporting authorities would have recognised her talent when she was very young. From that moment on she would have been forced to dope whether she wanted to or not and the authorities would not have cared less about any risk to her long term health.
She was most likely a phenomenal talent. But she absolutely doped as it was mandatory under the USSR in order to be able to compete, and she willingly complied and then has lied about it for decades since. Her talent is far superior to her character, because she was a winner, but much more a cheater.
I ran track in the 80's. I was slow but clean. However, we all knew that world class athletes were all doping in the 80's. Track, Football, Baseball, Swimmers, Marathoners... Nearly all the winners were dirty, and that's just how it was in the 80's.
I always maintained even to till this day most top athletes are on something, as the methods for testing improves so does the methods to get around it, a lot of PEDs leave the system very quickly, so cycling on and off at the right time should always be enough to evade given the current regulations.
For you to even mention PED'S about Koch and not talk about PED'S in the video's you've done about FloJo, Carl Lewis. Is simply wrong, when you see the evidence against these athletes. Especially FloJo.
Well, this one is about a race FloJo was not in, so why should he. FloJo was absolutely doped, and doping was prevalent already at college level in USA. Several athletes from Norway that went to USA to study, were later caught with doping, especially throwers.
That was an outright world record attempt. I have never seen anyone else attempt that. A bit of strain at the end but she never broke form. Her form was amazing. I stopped a video of Sanya Richards American record at 47.6. She was still 15 meters from the finish.
Americans didn't used to focus on the Olympics...in Bob Beamon's era and before, many Olympians were just good athletes who got encouraged by their coaches or other sports insiders just before the Olympics to give the events they qualified for a shot... that's why America used to complain so loudly about Communist countries doping back in the day.
Because drugs alone don't give you technical skills. Ben Johnson was way faster than Lewis in the first 30 mt but he would have brake his legs trying to jump
@@ZdenekZeman433 The long jump is a peculiar technical event which bans the only biomechanically useful method of countering the rotation induced on takeoff : the somersault. The hang and hitch kick are tricks used to prevent a somersault. (Which accounts for why the long jump is no more than 9 m because the rules demands a very unnatural action. ) Without the IAAF rules, using both feet for launch vertically, and a somersault/s, to maintain stability, a jump of over 12 m would be the norm.
Let's see. All the other runners competing against Kock have stated that they have used some type of doping, but Kock has said that she did not take any substance to enhance her performance, then she is one incredible athlete.
В 1962 году Питер Снелл пробежал , на травяной дорожке, 880 ярдов за 145.1( 144.3 800м по ходу) Как рекорд Океании он продержался более 50 лет, хотя там хватало классных бегунов , беги он на современном Мондо в современных шиповках, его рекорд был бы не менее 142 Много бегунов бежало быстрее по прошествии 60 лет? Ещё Лидьярд писал, что если генетически одаренный бегун , на пике формы, установит рекорд, то побить его будет очень сложно. А у Кох была потрясающая базовая скорость 7.04 60м , возможно в этом секрет ее успеха. Что касается допинга, то все были в равных условиях. Просто в ГДР это поставили на научную основу, а немецкая педантичность и широкие возможности в поисках талантов( социалистическая система давала огромные возможности) - секрет успеха спортсменов ГДР
It's mere coincidence she has the legs of a race horse and the hair of a man. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Watch the runner in lane 1 actually closed up on the Koch as they came to the line? She was much farther back in the turn. Jose Canseco, the baseball player, juiced up and went from barely running bases to stealing bases and became a serious all star player.
People do doubt Coe, but with Koch it’s not about doubt. There are records from the East German government from the time which have been released showing her program of steroid use. She did use drugs. It’s official. Not just a rumour.
1. Look at Koch at 4:02. She looks almost indistinguishable from a man. 2. Doping disproportionately benefits women because it makes athletes more masculine and men are already masculine, so it affects them less. If Marita Koch didn't set her records through doping, where are the 1980s track records set by the East German men? There are none. It's just the women. That's the same reason the Chinese women, but not the Chinese men, set all kinds of swimming world records, and then the whole era suddenly disappeared the moment their massive doping program came to light. 3. Koch has repeatedly said: "I never broke any East German anti-drug laws." She has been careful NEVER to say, "I never broke any international anti-drug laws" because she knows she did. 4. There are officials who likely want her record to endure (quite possibly because it is one of the few track records not set by a black woman). Sebastian Coe and his colleagues on the International Olympic Committee have, for unknown and questionable reasons, gone very easy on Marita Koch all of these years. I have never heard anyone ask her the second question. For shame. The blind eye turned to this glaring scandal has deprived many deserving 400m female athletes of recognition and revenue.
An Aussie Raylene Boyle kept coming second to the east Germans back in the day. It saddens me that a legendary athlete never got the accolades she deserved. World & Olympic Gold were stolen by not the athletes, but a evil German athletics program you would only imagine seeing in China, Russia or some other godless nation. Your a immortal of Athletics Raylene & one day you will be recognised for your greatness, ambassador for sport & as a humble human being 🏅🎖️
stop being so naive, UK Aus US and Western Europe athletes were on something or another, the intensity of training and techniques of the eastern bloc and being able to do it full time wihout needing to work is as likely to have a significant advantage aside from being juiced.
IMO this record is definitely drug fuelled, but I also believe that is true for the women's 100m, 200m and 800m WRs. The difference is that the 100m and 200m WR are under real threat because there is a group of athletes pushing each other closer and closer to breaking it. 400m has been different for over 30 years because so few athletes break 49s, so breaking 47s looks impossible. For far too long, there has been a big psychological barrier to even going after this record, I would go so far as to say that the barrier is at 49s flat. However, now we have 3-4 athletes who are clearly capable of sub 49s on a regular basis. Once 49s is no longer seen as a barrier for the elite performers they will push closer and closer to the WR.
Konstandanova's women's high jump record of 2.09m stood for 37 years until last month (July 2024), and was broken by Yaroslava Mahuchikh from Ukraine. I thought it might never be broken, but all it took was one great jump on one particularly good day for Yaroslava.
Doping continues to this day. In fact, it might even dominate many track and field events. In men's 100m sprinting, I noticed that best performers seem to follow a bell curve down to around 10s, where an anomalous grouping occurs below 10s that does not follow statistical expectations. ChatGPT agrees: "In summary, the grouping of sprinters with times below 10 seconds is statistically unusual and can be considered an outlier phenomenon when compared to the general population of sprinters with times above 10 seconds." From a 2016 Independent article: "Of the 30 fastest 100m times ever, nine - including the top three - have been run by Bolt. Incredible as it seems, the other 21 were run by athletes who have tested positive at some point in their careers for doping." And the trajectory of Bolt's track career suggests that something fishy might have gone on with him as well. So Koch and East Germany might be the rule rather than the exception.
Her PR was only .17 faster than McLaughlin until she was almost a year and a half older than McLaughlin, who didn't event have a chance to race during peak this summer. Totally dumb, click bait video.
@@robertbucks5537so why hasn’t it gotten broken yet. Yes peds a better now but athletes obv take less of them nowadays, otherwise this record would have already been smashed. It’s obv that in the DDR they had some insane shit.
Don't quite know what you mean by mystery here. Those who followed Koch's career at the time weren't mystified by her 47.60, she would surely have clocked something like that had she been allowed to compete at the Los Angeles Olympics one year earlier.
While East Germany and several eastern bloc countries under the USSR umbrella took PED use among their athletes to another level from the 1970's until the Soviet breakup in 1989, the US sprinters of the Carl Lewis/Flo Jo era picked up the mantle of top cheating country in track and field sports into the 90's until the IOC and international governing anti-doping agency started to do more sophisticated and random drug tests. To this day international athletes still take chances using specilized medical technicians/nutritionists and rogue doctors to help evade PED detection, but it's believed to be not as prevalent as the 1970's to 1990's.
Few people outside the former Eastern Block can imagine to which extent athletes were not only the product of drugs, but also of talent scouting and coaching from a *very* early age on, and of extensive daily school sport. By consequence Eastern European athletes weren't only dominating in disciplines where drugs would be decisive, but also in disciplines like gymnastics, figure skating or ski jumping.
@@ButOneThingIsNeedful I think so, good call. I just remember him yelling "OK Jim" after Lampley asked what he thought about the round. Good boxing back then.
It’s like trying to figure out why the MLB season home run record was broken 6 times within a 3 year span in 40 years and never again since (except for Aaron Judge). It’s not rocket science. 😂
Lots of US and British athletes have been juiced out of their minds over the year like Linford Christie, Michael Johnson, Flo Jo, Denise Lewis etc etc but not a word about it of course, why is that i wonder?????
I almost feel like track and field just needs to have a world record and then a decade record that is records just for the decade. Some of these are just not going to be beaten naturally so there is no point.
Johnson just didn't have a good enough team to hide it and other nations probably wanted to make sure he was caught. Johnsons physique was too excessive. Notice the sprinters of today, the science seems to have directed runners to be lighter and leaner with less muscle as opposed to more muscular but heavier. I am just using the eye test.
@@johnnyfry2 All the athletes in the 1988 Seoul Olympics were given an endocrine test : gross steroid abuse causes a hormone imbalance. 85% of the athletes failed the test. (This came out in the Ben Johnson appeal. ) The supposed infraction by Ben Johnson was proved in court to be impossible : 100% purity in a urine sample is impossible. The Seoul authorities lied. Ben Johnson was disqualified for having a hormone imbalance which 85% of the athletes had. When queried, the IOC replied they were not a democracy. Ben Johnson was a scapegoat.
@@michaeledwards2251 Are you saying he didn't juice? lol. Yes, all but one in the 100M Finals that year were using, Ben was no exception, he admitted it. He got caught, they didn't
@@johnnyfry2 What part of a hormone imbalance didn't you understand : Ben Johnson was shown to be a gross steroid abuser. The point being 85% of ALL the 1988 Seoul athletes had the same evidence against them and should have all been disqualified. Ben Johnson would not have been a scapegoat if all 85% of all the Seoul 1988 Olympic athletes had been disqualified for doping. Only 1 in 6 would have been left. Such an action, combined with life time bans for the 5 in 6 would have put a stop to most doping. (There would always be a few dopers left, but they would have to hide their activities. )
The most straight forward explanation is this was a male athlete. There has almost certainly been performance enhancing drugs used since this world record was set and still, no one close. Things have changed now and these things can be more open. It won't be long before this record is broken by another athlete who was born male but competes as female.
@@Scalaflow Given the compensation scheme for athletes who suffered from forced drug usage is tiny, the benefits from having the World Record far outweigh them. No reason for her to admit anything.
There is one record in running that will never be broken again, its Emil Zatopeks. Nobody ever is going to win olympic gold in 5000, 10000 and Marathon in one olympics ever again and the marathon is the race they never ran before until this olympics!!! LOL. These events are so specific that you wont even be able to do 5 and 10k in one race, forget Marathon....thats completely different. I love when Emil asked who is the best runner before they started, and he just followed the runner until he just dropped him towards the end ...
The only reason it hasn't been broken is the spacing of the events ....Zataopek had more time to recover before he ran the marathon.Farah won 5 and 10 twice and Lassie Veren once .in the Olympic games.(.it has done done 6 times ) if they put the marathon on a later day ,..it would have been done.. Zataopek had 8 days to rest between the 10,000 and tbe marathon.😮
I’ll never forget Marita Kochs performances, they were unbelievable. When you watch her in full flight she looked like an inexhaustible machine. I suspect her doping profile became available on the black market was studied and became the blueprint that influenced many top athletes in the West including Flo-Jo. Anyone in their right mind and senses can see humans who move that fast and powerfully are on something more than carrot juice, broccoli and chicken.
Sydney McClaughlin-Levrone just ran a 47.70 split in the 4x400 at the 2024 Olympics. She needs to devote a year to the open 400 and break this record. No doubt she could do it.
@@phillipschuman4307 It was the second leg. But not a very graceful handoff. I guess I’m unclear when the timer starts and ends on a middle leg of a relay.
@@kevink5866 Thanks for your reply. How the 4x100 relay works: Each baton handoff must occur inside a 20-meter changeover zone, between two yellow marks. The outgoing runner can start running up to 10 meters ahead of the changeover zone, but can only receive the baton within the zone. The legs are timed by the 100 meter marks, but the 2nd-4th runners can have up to a 30 meter running start.
@@phillipschuman4307 Thanks for the explanation! A running start sure makes a difference. But I’m still hoping she’ll devote some of her career to the straight 400, would love to see how fast she can go. Her Olympic 400 hurdle time would have been something like the 5th best open 400 time this year.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
You solved the mystery at 0:18 already: "Competing for East Germany during the 1980's".
They were all juiced out of their minds.
Yeah, just like everybody else...
@@FarbenSeher Well, yes and no. The Eastern Bloc had offical state-sponsored programs for this shit.
Til Linderman, the lead singer of Rammstein was a competitive swimmer in his youth and he detailed how the cocktails on drugs he was given fucked up his system for a long time.
@@FarbenSeher No, not even close.
@Stierlitz exactly. While there is no doubt that western athletes were on the roids, they did them individually, they didn't have the weight of a countries medical and security apparatus to ensure they got the cutting edge drugs and the best way to avoid getting caught
I have never had to stop watching one of your videos before but I had to this time after three minutes… East German original documents that became available after the fall of the iron curtain show Koch used the anabolic steroid Oral-Turinabol (4-Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone) from 1981 to 1984 with dosages ranging from 530 to 1460 mg/year… this is where you should start, and if you think these documents are correct, this is where you end…
that would make for a boring ass video
Yep, they were all at it. Renate Stecher and Barbel Wochtl were the other two of the triumvirate. East Germany dominated women's athletics. If you didn't know that they were busted years ago the fact that German women are now useless in world terms tells you all you need to know. I don't understand why these "records" are allowed to stand.
He covers that
There are still some issues. 1) It looks like she didn't suffer any of the major side effects. 2) Turinabol is a milder steroid than Jarmila, who looked like a man. Yet she was still faster 3) Many users were given it and told they were vitamin. If she were one of them, she would not know. 4) Torinabol stays in your system longer along with being milder. Does it give much more of an advantage than HGH? Doubt it. 5) Being the fastest of a bunch of drug takers is still impressive. Similar to Ben Johnson and Mark McGwire. 6) By now someone should've beat this record with the advancement in track technology, nutrition, equipment, foot wear, training, etc. Ben Johnson mark's was supposed to be untouchable but Bolt, Blake and Gay matched or better it. Powell got close. The fact nobody is close now puts her in the same athletic freak category as FloJo except she did it for so many years.
@@zk4761 "5) Being the fastest of a bunch of drug takers is still impressive. Similar to Ben Johnson and Mark McGwire." Nope
East Germany was putting out women athletes who looked more muscular than a lot of the men in this era. Doping has long been an issue, but East Germany took it to another level back during this time. Their state run programs encouraged runners to use PEDs and they had a very successful masking program that was just as complicated as the doping itself.
what about for example Miller-Uibo or Marileidy Paulino? how are they looking?
@@elmulakke The problem continues in countries all over the world. In recent years, the long-distance running program of African runners has been investigated and the extent of the doping problem surprised the world. What happens is that the sport associated with the doping issues suffers and as prize money and endorsement deals continue to increase, so has the temptation of other athletes, in all sports, to use performance enhancing drugs. Sadly, the result has been a public loss of interest in the sports and the toll it has taken on the athletes who didn't know about the long term effects has taken many lives of the athletes long before they should have died. The PEDs are becoming more advanced and harder to detect, or taken during times when the athletes are not checked. In many countries, the agencies that are in charge of checking the top athletes have become involved in the problem.
Not encouraged. The usage of drug regimes was non-negotiable.
@@littleblackpistol same like today.
It's also entirely possible that that was a man's body, transformed to be a woman's...
Koch was dosing on Oral Turinabol (aka CDMT) from 1981 to 1984. Berendonk & Franke saved documents written by the East German drug research programme and she listed by name in those documents listing her dosing from 530 to 1460 mg per year under State Plan Topic 14.25. She can say she didn't take it, but she would be hard pressed to not admit that she received 'vitamins' under her training program. The thing about CDMT is it is designed as a tablet.
wow, smoking gun there. I didn't read it but it's being saved by NIH so not just some dubious magazine article somewhere.
That would put her at the equivalent of an 18-25 year old man. I'm most impressed by the dose. High but not crazy high where health problems or over masculinization would emerge. Very conservative edge.
@@miltkarr5109you contradicted yourself...yes very conservative edge at best. Oral turinabol was the weak version of dbol...even if she was on the higher end as documented it was a low hit.. it didn't make her equivalent to an 18 to 25 male...The 1460mg for the yr possibly cycled into months but still low
Your mother uses oral steroids 😂
Look at her prominant adam’s apple(thyroid cartilege) she was using anabolic steroids since she was about 18. 🙄
I remember seeing Koch and Kratochvilova run in the '80s. The entire Soviet bloc (Russian, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.) was hopped up on steroids and "blood packing." It wasn't even that much of a secret. it was all sports, not just track & field. There were no tests that could detect all of the different steroids then so their federations just dared people to prove it. Occasionally someone would get caught in the urine testing, but not enough of them. Of course Koch is going to deny she was doping. That's like Kratochvilova saying she was just "a big country farm girl" and came by her muscle mass naturally. It was the stance of the Soviet Union that if they couldn't win the cold war - they'd prove their superiority with athletics. You know...since that worked out so well for Hitler in 1936..
А американцы питались только святым духом? О , Ха- Ха- ха. Просто тогда влияние СССР и США было равным в международных структурах. Льюис в 1988 попадался трижды, ему все сошло с рук. , Гатлин попадался дважды, все сошло с рук. Бегун на 400м Петтигрю признался что принимал допинг и эстафетная команда США лишилась великого рекорда 4 по 400м 254.20 1998( против чего я категорически против) и нескольких титулов чемпионов мира( я тоже против этого) Все были в равных условиях. Но социалистическая система в СССР и ГДР позволяла получить доступ к спорту широким слоям населения и система отбора талантов была лучше чем в США и странах Запада. Кстати в 1984 году американцы вывели из под проверок на допинг 80 проб своих спортсменов и это общеизвестный факт. Да и сам допинг появился в США. Так что не надо ля- ля
Its the same today, but they just use different stuff. Acting like pro athletes are clean today is just dumb. Anyone who understand even in slightest human performance and can read studies and look at the testing records must understand that everyone in pro sports dope today.
Thank you for beating me to this massive fraud that for some reason no one likes to address. All we hear about is FloJo "suspicions" but these Soviet Bloc broads were literally running as pros and doing everything possible to get as fast as possible.
It’s not like they aren’t doping today and with potentially more potent drugs. It was a tremendous run that should stand.
There was also no out of competition testing and the eastern block tested their athletes before any competition. Anyone testing positive withdrew due to a mystery injury.
"It became clear that she was onto something special"
Yeah, that's the controversy.
1988...the Americans were juiced up to the hilt too!
Well she sure was *on* something special
@@paulinehannon4514 Yeah, I wasn't trying to absolve the Americans; pretty much everyone was juicing.
@jgray2718 yep!...but the east Germans are used as the scapegoat...
East Germany had a state sponsored programme of steroid use ...many athletes weren't aware of what they were taking ...till it was too late .
You can't scrap world records...because so many athletes worldwide were on Something '.
.
@@jgray2718 She just identified as a man. So progressive...so brave. 😐
Out of the top 10 fastest 400m times ever she holds 5! The soviet woman in 2nd in this race also ran the 9th fastest time ever in this same race. Only 3 of the top 10 times ever were ran outside the 1980's. All Eastern block countries were taking performance enhancing drugs at the time as well as some U.S. athletes. Every womens world record from the 100m to the 800m (not including hurdle races) was set in the 80's.
This is a bit like weightlifting. Most records were set in the 80's by eastern bloc countries. They have re-arranged the weight classes to nullify these but outside of a few exceptions almost all the best lifts were done during this era.
Lifters like Lasha who were also caught using PED's aren't able to use the same types of drugs and for the duration that those athletes were. Kind of impressive he was able to match those all time lifts on lesser PED use I guess.
What do you really "know"? Western state propaganda? Come on - they are always lying
Steroids give ur head a shake 💪
Yes but were they all women?
As were the world records in long jump, high jump, shot put, discus, 4x400, and heptathlon. Since then the javelin has been changed and hammer, pole vault, and triple jump were not events at worlds or Olympics.
Living in the Soviet bloc, during those times, their athletes would be under orders to take whatever PED, prescribed by the State Doctors....it was POLICY.
Their athletes were propaganda objects of the State and were treated like machines.
Any refusal of these tenets, would result in banishment of the athlete and his/her family.
....and we all know the word Gulag and Stasi, don't we.
Do you actually think the U.S. & Europe weren't experimenting with drug use? Come on!
They were on PEDs but the rest you wrote is the fiction.
Exactly. I've been making that same point on these videos. Check out my comment. They were used and abused. I used to hate them but I now feel great pity for them.
Yes they were but FloJo was also on drugs. I propose to get a tennis-like "era division" in athletics. The new era should start from 1989 when random testing has been introduced. I just don't believe anything that happened before that regardless of nationality.
@@bm9504nb12
Remember BALCO ? And the cheating methods available now are designed to exit the body in 30 seconds.
Koch actually looked natural. Kratochvilova otoh looked like and NFL LB.
ye...she looked like well build man
Both dope
@@honzatoman3602 obv she's juiced to the gills but that build she has kinda exists right in women sports? That Russian runner sticks out like a sore thumb
Right!!!
Jarmila didn't took steroids....she was natural doped...to much testosterone
If Koch hadn't broken it then we'd still be talking about the 47.99 of Kratochvilova as the Czech was an embodiment of the caricature image of a soviet era athlete, she was built like Ben Johnson.
And her 42 year old indoor record got broken this year by Bol.
She was also the front man for the Who.
@@jamezkpal2361 🤣
It is one of the few races in which MARITA KOCH. He didn't put his head into the finish line. If he had done so, he would have dropped the 48
She??
Maybe she was accelerating at the end. Secretariat, who won the triple crown in 1973 was actually running faster the last quarter mile of the Kentucky Derby than the first quarter.
Well, Secretariat was a freak of nature. His heart was twice as large as other race horses. His lungs were larger too. He could pump way more blood and oxygen as other horses. The 1973 Belmont Stakes (which I watched live on TV) was the greatest sporting even in history, in my opinion. If you watch it on UA-cam, take note of what happens in the back stretch. He's neck and neck with Sham, then something amazing happens. Secretariat suddenly puts himself in a totally different gear, his legs start stretching out, he starts pulling effortlessly away from Sham. He and Sham were already WAY ahead of the other horses by this time, and yet Secretariat was just warming up. He was, and is the greatest athlete to ever live!!
She wasn’t, she clearly self-destructed on the final 50 meters. She was basically running a 300 meter race and winged the rest.
Even to set a PR (personal record) one needs to run a faster second half split.
@@ironcladranchandforge7292 - APPLES to oranges. Give it a break. Stick to humans here. LoL.
@@machtnichtsseimann -- No.
Marita Koch never failed a drug test. Marlies Gohr never failed a drug test. Both were either World Champion, Olympic Champion or both, as well as holding multiple world records from the mid 1970s to mid 1980s.
This record has stood the test of time. What is clear is Koch's physical appearance never changed from scrawny and thin too pumped up and muscular as did many suspected drug cheats of the 80's era. Jarmila Kratochvilova on the other hand looked the exact opposite and was very muscular and still holds the 800m W.R, yet could not defeat Koch's 400m WR.
I say this often, that the idea drug abuse was going on in the Eastern Bloc and not in the UK and US was almost laughable. The standards and abilities of producing and testing and avoiding capture of drugs you would imagine were far superior in the western nations.
Therefore my opinion is any negative test of a Marita Koch or Kratochvilova is as valid and trustworthy as a test of Carl Lewis or Jackie Joyner.
Differences in the doping of athletes are the main issue. Those ion the west had the choice, those in East Germany and the like had none.
I agree that Koch's physical appearance is not eye-popping and obviously suspicious in the same way as Kratochvilova. She was also a dominant performer, and perennial record breaker throughout her career, unlike Flo-Jo who underwent a sudden and massive improvement, before disappearing out of sight.
However, it is simply impossible to look objectively at the evidence that has come to light about state-sponsored doping in the GDR during that era, and believe Koch was clean. I do believe she was an exceptional athlete in her own right, and grew up in an environment which - aside from any drugs - was focused single mindedly on identifying and grooming world class athletes, at the expense of all else in the athlete's life. The West could not compete with this brutal dedication. But yes, the PEDs were very likely what then made the difference between 'extremely good/talented' and 'best ever'.
@@bram99494 What im saying is that after the reunification of germany all this started to become evidenced.
That will never happen for Flo Jo or Carl Lewis despite the whole world knowing they were definitely at it.
I do feel sorry for the sprinters in particular. Gohr or Koch never looked pumped like Flo Jo. Not to mention the gold going to Kondratseyeva at Moscow still not convinced Gohr lost. They had no choice or knowledge if they were doped certainly before the weight of the nation was on them and those that refused to continue suffered at the GDR discarding them like trash.
I also feel for Lance Armstrong despite all his denials etc even Marion Jones. I find it hard to believe anyone was clean in that Tour era.
The pressure for a small nation like GDR or the massive money, sponsors etc that came with being Carl Lewis or Jones, armstrong and a massive expecting US public its understandable they were under huge pressure to shut up.
I feel these records should stand. Koch 400m will go sometime, and all the rest. I believe Koch and Gohr were exceptional, no one says Evelyn Ashford was doping yet she clearly overtook Gohr after Helsinki.
Its as simple as this. No positive test no crime.
We cant have Eastern Bloc athletes whose nations became westernized penalised because it was opened to the media while the US,UK,EU PR machine keeps our athletes 70s,80s doping under the carpet.
Allan Wells was my hero as a kid and he looked pumped and id bet hes the last white guy who will ever t win Olympic Gold at 100m.
Why is Wells skin color so important to you? He won in 1980 with the slowest winning time since 1956. 😂😂😂
@@May-ve6sr must be I'm a racist then.
In practice the Western athletes choice was accept an alternative career. The rate of steroid abuse was exposed in the 1988 Seoul Olympics during the appeal of Ben Johnson. Every Olympic athlete in the 1988 Seoul Olympics was given an endocrine test, hormone balance, gross steroid abuse causes a hormone imbalance, 88% failed.
Given athletes in the long distance events, and high skill events, archery, shooting, and others, would be disadvantaged by gross steroid abuse, the rate among sprinters, and explosive field events, shot put, javelin, and others, had to be greater than 88%.
Numerous other drugs were very difficult to detect, especially among teenagers. For example, Growth Hormone.
Any Eastern Bloc record from the 80's should be suspect.
5:09 she was onto something special. All this consistency and then wham, maybe she was ON something special.
Armpit hair....tasty
Well of course as they are all using Drugs.
Every record, since the 80's, from any nation should be suspect. PEDs are endemic, the difference between then and now is better understanding of how to avoid testing positive.
Not just suspect any more. We have the actual GDR data which identifies all of the athletes and what junk they were forced to take. They were all forcibly doped without any consideration to their health. Tokens for the glorification of the regime.
As should any U.S. WR held from the 80s-90s.. ask David Jenkins
The reason the record still stands out is because at that time it was still quite easy to use massive doses of steroids without getting caught. Contrary to what many people may think there's no modern drug that comes close for building strength and explosive power (or muscle mass).
Particularly for women.
Men already have lots of testosterone, so steroids will give them a little boost.
For women, it’s a massive boost.
That’s why it’s the women’s records that still hold.
This doping happened not only in east germany at this time. see Florence Griffith-Joyner, Ben Johnson, And I claim almost all sprinters in this decade were mainly doped.
Carl Lewis
I don't care what Ben Johnson was on as that was one of the most amazing 100's I've ever seen.
The difference was the doping in East Germany was state sponsored and universal.
@@stevenleslie8557 Doping may not have been sponsored by the US government but it was just as widespread and condoned by officials. Just ask Carl Lewis who, by his own admission, tested positive three times at the 1988 US Olympics trials yet was allowed to go to the Olympics two months later. Remember, he's the guy who was awarded the gold medal in the 100m when Ben Johnson was disqualified for doping. Speaking of American athletes, Lewis also said "There were hundreds of people getting off. Everyone was treated the same."
@@luciebrisson5881 I can't argue with that
Anyone who lived through the late 70's and into the 80's watching T&F then seeing so many Athlete's banned for substance abuse knows what records were juiced results it was obvious.
Her time was as legitimate as Flo Jo's times.
Both are doping cheats
@@pedropelaez yup
@@pedropelaezFlo Jo still had perfect form. She has the most technically perfect form ever.
Speculation@@pedropelaez
@@pedropelaezI bet you most all of them are doing the same thing. I doubt any of the, are completely clean.
Never forget that you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse, not even with doping. Marita Koch was an outstanding sprinter even without steroids. With them, she became superhuman.
I completely agree. Even if Marita Koch was on steroids at this time, apparently everyone else was too, and she still won a 400m race by about 50m. She was a remarkable runner either way.
@@lornarettig3215 Everyone dopes even to this day... just not with steroids as much
mausilugner - So wahat?
I saw it reported that the East Germans estimated the effects of doping to be worth 4 seconds over 400m.
As natural as Ronnie Coleman
She yelling out FAST TIMES
@@williamgrierson4133 As natural as Flo Jo
@@williamgrierson4133brilliant comment
So many missed it
Cry, Cry
Then he isn't either
It is no surprise that the record has lasted. Firstly, we have to accept that the coaches in the GDR used every chemical aid their state funded sports science industry could come up with. That is an indisputable fact.
However, in addition those same coaches came up with ways of training in the sprint events - 60m to 400m. Read Charlie Francis' book "Speed Trap" which is mainly about his relationship with Ben Johnson. In this book Francis is very open about the huge amount of knowledge he absorbed from the GDR coaches. Their methods were very different from those used by most sprint coaches in the western world.
In an interview she explained how the short distance indoor races were part of the preparation for the outdoor 400. It was based on the theory that most top athletes have the same maximum speed. So you have to win the race on the first 60 meters.
The majority of athletes in history have been using (and are still using) every chemical aid they can get away with, or think they can get away with. Even going back to the late 1800s baseball players were using performance enhancers. They have just changed what they use and how they use as laws, rules and tests have changed.
We don't even have to speculate if she did steroids. There is actual documentation of the amounts she took and when she took them.
If technique mattered, where have all the great German sprinters gone since then? What Francis "learned" from the GDR is how to use steroids for his own runner , Ben Johnson, arguably the most infamous cheater of all time.
@@TheErockaustin then why is her record still standing?
Had to stop at 1:09.....what is the mystery here? We all know how she did this now.
It will be very hard to break.but Sydney McLaughlin I have my eyes on to break that archaic 400m world record.. Sydney is extraordinary. and it takes a extraordinary athlete to do it. So I think she is the one to do it.agree guy's?
If she's not juiced up... she might find it hard.
Yes her or Mboma
@@JappaKneadstrack athletes not juicing !!?!?
Yeah that’s just impossible
Yep Sydney or Athing. 👏👏
Bol
Would be interested on a deep dive into the women's 800m world record.
One thing that astonishes me about the 800 meter WR is that it was set with slightly negative splits (56.82 and 56.46, with a very fast last 100) indicating that it could have been quite a bit faster with better pacing.
You’ve got my vote 👍🏾
@@WithBACON I think that negative split was actually the best possible pacing in this situation. She wanted to take place in a 200m race, but had an injury that didn't allow a fast acceleration which allowed her to not start the 800m race too hard, allowing that negative split world record.
@@jojolords4523 Generally speaking, the way to run 800 meters as fast as possible (at the world-class level) is to have the 1st lap about 2-3 seconds faster than the second. This holds true for women as well as men. In this race ideal pacing would have been something like 27-28-28.5-29. JK's 200 PR was 21.97; obviously an opening 200 in the 27 range (or slightly faster) would not have been a problem.
@@WithBACONyou have to also remember the 800n WR holder could also run 48s 400m the first lap must have felt like a slightly harder jog to her hence the negative spilt
It's also not controversial or speculative. It is a historically known fact that nobody, absolutely nobody in GDR athletics had a say in whether or not they wanted it. They had regular "vitamine shots", which they weren't allowed to ask about what it was. Those who did or wanted to refuse these shots faced the everything a dictatorship can do to make its citicens comply.
I would like to see a video analyzing Coe's 800 race from 1981. It still stands as the 3rd in the all-time list. And Jonathan Edward's triple jump world record.
Records by Coe and his Great Britain teammates Cram and Ovett are certainly suspect. The same is true of Lasse Viren and his Finland teammates as well as many distance runners prior to 1985. Many were lab rats using blood doping but who and to what extent remains unknown. But this became a Europe normal practice once distance runners became aware of Viren's use of blood. This led to the banning in 1985. Of course eventually EPO came around and more cheating and bans. There is one World Championship 1500 where they verified subsequent use of EPO or similar drugs with better testing of saved samples. In that one race 9 of the women were identified as verified cheats with two undergoing final stages of their hearings. This was the first time it brought the focus on African nations. In that race the first clean runner was a Canadian in 3rd place. The next clean runner was an American in 7th place. The problem is nobody can go back and recreate the excitement of the race of what would have happened and giving them medals many years afterwards without a stadium cheering is not justice. Now we have super shoes making a mockery of track. Winners are being created in a lab as Nike, Adidas and other shoe companies acknowledge that they continue to try for technological advancements to give their sponsored runners an unfair advantage. It has gotten so bad that the shoes are now being designed to be broken in and worn by world class distance runners with a short run of 5 to 6 miles. Then to be used in only one race for a marathon, 10K or 5K. This happened in the Chicago Marathon when the World Record was just set. But the governing bodies overseeing track and field like these shoes as it has brought back viewers and money into the sport and great profits for shoe companies. But will the International Olympic Committee allow their use as they are creating fake records which the shoe companies have acknowledged has occured since 2017.
For Coe's 800 meter race form 1981, see the second part of the video at ua-cam.com/video/QhAtzVvRXfI/v-deo.html
Coe was awesome.
Got his autograph at the Drake Relays in Iowa, USA about that time. There was an Irishman there who was fast as well, OShaunassy or something.
@@philipgates988 Eamonn Coghlan was the best Irish miles back then and they used to call him the chairman of the boards because of his ability to win the indoor mile. The other best Irish runner was John Treacy.
Thanks for this. Also see Marita's interview with Donna de Varona after the race.
The era of the greatest injustice to track and field. How could anyone with a conscience still refer to this as a world record when the truth is always staring us in the face
Because literally everyone capable of setting a track and field record is on some kind of juice. We're really gonna pick and choose which juiced athletes are too much and which are just fine?
Yes, all old world records should be erased
The woman who came second ran 48.27 so should probably feature on the all time list though I appreciate it says since 1985. Amazing they ran those times from lanes 1 and 2.
Very good observation! And I believe that the (former record holder, and still in 800m.) was running on lane 7 in this race.
The woman who finished second won Olympic Gold in the 1988 400 meter and Olympic Silver in 1992.
yea, goofball voice over all lane 1 got was "slightly challenged by inside""
Also enhanced.
Lane 2 isn't so bad. Lane 8 is the worst in a 400 meter, it's good at the beginning, but the last curve is just a long, long way around.
“Mystery” rhymes quite well with “Chemistry”.
💯
Erm.......no it doesn't !
Do u know what "rhymes" means??
@@jasondearham8243 Are you sure you want an answer? OK: it refers to the fact that two words end in a similar sequence of syllables, where said sequence starts with the final stressed syllable and includes all remaining syllables.
In this stricter definition of rhyme, the sequences sound similar and have also the same spelling.
In a looser rhyme, in spite of different spelling, they sound similar, as in the case I presented, and also in the case of a lot of popular songwriting.
I hope this satisfies your curiosity.
Cheers.
PS: And it’s not “u”, it’s “you”. If you’re going to be picky about language, at least use a higher standard of writing.
No mystery, just dope. We all knew it at the time and still do.
Ahhh I see so nobody used drugs in the last 30 to 40 years since then?
that includes griffith joyner.........10,49 at 100 meters ?...............
nowadays they dope too, or do you think they are all clean? what you think about Miller-Uibo or Marileidy Paulino?
Still impressive
@@TfortLo-q8m dope impressive
As they used to say back in the 80's ..."If you're not on it, you're not in it."
She, Koch, may not have known that she was being doped, but many GDR athletes admitted that after taking the "Pills" they were ordered to take, their performances increased dramatically. The women's voices deepened. Koch's autopsy will eventually reveal all.
lol
Unless there is a medical reason for an autopsy, such as sudden unexpected death, which applied in the case of Flo Jo, autopsy will only be made if the relatives request it.
Oh she mos def knew. I mean u cant give a profesional runner "vitamins" and all her records are getting better and then breaking wr and be like "hmmm i think those pills are helping out a bit" she knew what was up, same as everyone else that competed back then
......she was the best of that time though
@@fungus_am0nguz644
Koch and Jamila wrote letters, I learned this from one of the other comments on this page, in which they referred to their consumption of PEDs. The Stasi records by themselves would not be conclusive proof as a number of Eastern German athletes had adverse reactions and didn't take their prescribed medications. The letters show they knew and consumed.
Oh, Koch knew it! There is a letter Koch wrote about Wockel receiving higher doses of steroids than Koch!
One of britains top athletic coaches told me many years ago it would be nearly impossibe to win at national level let alone international level without using drugs in most athletic events,britains most famous sprinter generated so much money for the sport the governing body turned a blind eye and even let him know if he was about to be tested so he could pull out of the meet with injury
wells or christie? Drew McMaster Wells Scottish team mate stated that Wells was on it, have no doubt Christie was on the juice as well, runs a 9.87 at 32 but supposedly clean, Johnson does 9.79 with his electrifying start but is the only one juiced, it's BS aint it!
@@tonyfranklin8306 ,Christie ,this fella told me ,he was in the b squad at his athletics club before teaming up with the fella that changed his diet lol and pretty soon after that he was the golden boy ,first world class sprinter since wells ,it's when itv used to screen all the big events ,the Oslo grand Prix etc he said if Christie was running it raised the viewing figures so much as well as sponsors etc the authorities wouldn't dare touch him ,bit like the woman middle distance runner that was a known cheat got caught a couple of times and got off light and ended up getting on the queens honours list lol
@@freddieboxingattkof8111 yup, sport is business, businesses like soccer, rugby union, gridiron, baseball, boxing etc have been doping and will continue to dope as the mechanisms that keep the money rolling in will protect the business no matter who is sacrificed. the odd big name here and there (Johnson particularly) that makes punters think things are clean or the controls are credible to keep things as clean as possible, and also to deflect. That Johnson was the only one supposedly doping in that final was frankly a joke, especially since Lewis was a regular on the naughty step.
Surely Vladykina in 2nd who was taking ground off her was also doping, look at the subsequent record... When Marita Koch set the world record for the women's 400 meters with a time of 47.60 seconds on October 6, 1985, in Canberra, Australia, the athlete who finished second was Olga Vladykina (née Bryzgina) from the Soviet Union. She ran a time of 48.27 seconds in that race, which was also an exceptionally fast time, making her the third-fastest woman in history at that point.
Olga Bryzgina had an illustrious career following that race:
Olympic Success: Olga Bryzgina won the gold medal in the 400 meters at the 1988 Seoul Olympics with a time of 48.65 seconds. She also played a key role in helping the Soviet Union win gold in the 4x400 meters relay at the 1988 Olympics, where they set a world record that still stands today (3:15.17).
World Championships: In 1987, at the World Championships in Rome, Bryzgina won gold in the 4x400 meters relay with the Soviet team.
European Championships: Bryzgina also had success at the European Championships, winning gold in the 400 meters in 1986 and in the 4x400 meters relay in 1986 and 1990.
Olga Bryzgina is widely regarded as one of the greatest 400-meter runners of all time, and her rivalry with Marita Koch is one of the most memorable in the history of women's athletics.
koch went off far too quickly and ran sub 23 for the first 200, had she ran a negative split out of the blocks probs would have gone under 47s as she faded badly in the last 60m or so.
why is the time of the 2nd runner not listed in "fastest times since 1985" at 1:32 ? Russian Olga Wladykina-Bryshina finished 48,27 s in this race.
In fact is still the 9th fastest time today.
This is a well presented history of the time and as a Track Aficionado from the 60’s through the 2020’s. I saw Ludmilla at an International meet in Eugene Oregon’s and it was obvious steroids that made her so strong. I ran in the 4 minute Miler era and as a distance runner in that era. Ludmilla admitted it and died young. So looking at Koch and this time I believe it was the perfect combination of Athletic performance build up and an East German mercedes class drug program which took her below 48. Read on yes thought I remembered that East German story about their evidence of CMBT
Please be more clear - what exactly did Lyudmila admit and die young, is it that you saw her in Oregon, or that you were a distance runner?
Don't forget the track and altitude : the fact the best time Koch achieved the year before and after, was the same, gives away the importance of having an ideal track, when new, for a fast time.
The fact that she was doping has been proven. There are East German records that detail the doping.
7:35 ....FINALLY .....gets to "performance enhancing drugs". "Overwhelming evidence which suggests a governmental state sponsored building program. And over the years, many athletes have actually come forward, admitting it's doping." So the East German scientists figure out how to hide the many drugs used ...making them undetectable at that time. These training records have been published showing this activity .....there should be no "statute of limitations" to stripping ALL records ......particularly when there was INTENT ......which very clearly there was.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marita_Koch
"The documents list the dosage and timetables for the administration of anabolic steroids to many athletes of the former DDR, with one of them being Marita Koch. According to the sources, Koch did use the anabolic steroid Oral-Turinabol (4-Chlorodehydromethyltestosterone) from 1981 to 1984 with dosages ranging from 530 to 1460 mg/year."
There is one other factor. Marita Koch does NOT appear to have the typical female body structure. She has no "hips" and has much wider shoulders than most every female. The muscle mass all over, particularly in the thighs and shoulders for driving when she is running is very clearly over-developed ....yet lean. She is the ideal candidate for doping.
It's too bad she would not admit to cheating. It shows her character .....untrustworthy. She is not deserving of any respect ....and the same applies to the Olympic organization.
.
But Koch wasn’t a muscle monster. So whatever she took probably did a lot for her blood oxygen levels etc. but it wasn’t your classical steroid case.
8:19
The poor runner falling 😂
Ooof, bottom right corner
One point to consider, probably best phrased as a question: the 47.60 400m performance happened in Canberra, Australia. That track is at an altitude of 1,900 feet above sea level. Could that altitude have influenced the finishing times for the first two placed finishers who ran PR's (due to thinner air, and less aero resistance)? An online calculator suggests a benefit of 1 - 2 10ths of a second benefit over 400m at that altitude. This question isn't meant to detract from the obvious doping debate.
Very very salient point. It is my view that this fact in addition to being doped to her eyebrows is why this record WILL NEVER EVER be broken or even approached.
Altitude is a point almost no one realizes, also, it was a brand new super quick track on which even club runners had run stunning times just a few days prior to the WC meet.
Same argument to the Mexico City Olympics...... it's an old argument.
@@SuperChuckRaney 1900' in Canberra is nothing compared to Mexico City's 6800', and likely gives only a negligible advantage
@@markcaporale2559 The advantage would be training there and then running at a much lower altitude immediately after. Granted though, if you are not used to the altitude you will not do well, but that would be a case of underperforming until you got acclimatized to your "normal" self.
Marita wasn’t on drugs; she was on cutting-edge drugs
Just like today.
@@thebigpicture2032 oh yes…greatest dopers of all time are in contemporary times :)
Obsolete by today's standards.
@@thebigpicture2032 Today's drugs don't seem as good
@@Teucer9 true, queludes were da bomb!
4:54 Isn't 48.26 better than 48.60? Or was that some other time that had nothing to do with what we were watching?
8:20 THAT INSIDE LANE TOOK A BAD FALL!!! It looks like sand from the long jump 😂🤦♂️
Ouch
Yeah.. 😮
You appear to be right.
Doped to the gils. Athletes are getting better every year. Better training, better equipment, better nutrition, etc. Just look at the improvements in performance in other sports. All these track and field records that have held up 30 years mean one thing.
athletes have much better shoes and tracks now too
"Mean one thing": one meter had 95 cm in the 1980s.
Give me a break!! why is it controversial? Because a non-US athlete has it? Is Flo Jos' 10:49 in the 100m controversial as well? That record has lasted for over 35 years.
The fact that she took a victory lap and seemed hardly out of breath after such a fast time, was a suspicious sign that something was not normal. Who breaks 30+ world records? She's never gonna admit her guilt.
just a genetically superior human
i've had some of my best times and won many events without showing any signs of being warned out. why? the joy takes over and you don't feel any pain.
A man
Everybody knows that the East Germans were dirty. It's not a mystery.
@@gumbi79 ....yet none now from Germany...umm ok.
East German Olympic performances can’t be taken seriously. AT ALL!
Put them in the bin !
And Flo Jo's record can?? 🤣
And Michael Johnson. And Lance Armstrong? This better than thou attitude is boring.
I was there. Without a doubt the greatest womens 400m ever run. Attended a sport science symposium that was a part of the World Championships in Canberra Australia1985. Three world records in three days! Met and talked with East German coaches, managers and athletes. Head coach provided the training program the team used to prepare for the championship. They were very open about what they did. Marita was a really kind, generous person. He training schedule would have exhausted most male athletes - even today! Of course steroids were used. Problem was IAAF medical testing and IOC medical testing was very amateur.
East German women had 5:00 shadows from what I remember as a kid. Totally natural.
Some actually transitioned into men. I watched a documentary about them.
Flo Jo and Evelyn Ashford sported fine moustaches. I remember an interview Evelyn Ashford had with Wilma Rudolph who gave an odd look.
The gal in lane 1 smoked it pretty well as well
She was Olga Bryzgina of Ukraine, yet another Eastern Bloc athlete who was probably doping.
That is still the 4th fastest women’s 400m of all time
@@bram99494that's crazy!!
@@bram99494that's amazing haha
It is unheard of to see a runner excel in both the 60 and the 400.
I mean, it’s really no secret though.
Drugs drugs drugs.
Just like every athlete today....
Her lastname wasn't Koch for nothing
She was a Kochin.
Yeah she has a Kochin her pants
Jamila crakahardon
At that time, there were no anti-doping tests, he could have ingested some drug, without anyone noticing.
Thanks for your video. It brings back memories. I am astonished that IAAF (or whatever the sanctioning body) said they'll only act if the athlete admits to cheating. Why would the athlete admit to cheating and disgrace himself/herself? Why would the IAAF bother to issue such an idiotic statement.
On a more positive note, I suggest the 1991 long jump competition between Mike Powell & Carl Lewis at the World T&F Championships in Tokyo. That was, in my mind, by far the greatest long jump duel ever.
Another drug infested competition.
Carl Lewis was one of the world's biggest drug cheats ever..
The appeal of Ben Johnson revealed the answer. Every athlete in the 1988 Seoul Olympic games was given an endocrine test, hormones go out of balance with gross steroid abuse, 85% failed.
Practically every winner, from every country, was an abuser. Given the IOC and IAAF relied on exciting races to attract punters, they had, and have, strong motives to be implicitly compliant.
Additionally every country paying the bill was compliant.
Would be interesting to now the drug regimes of various athletes of the time...
Kratochvilova ended up looking like a fella- yet Koch looked like a typically fit female...
Nah, After setting the world record, history shows Flo Jo quit just months before mandatory drug testing was introduced.
Kochs talent covering 60 metres through to 400 metre races, is freakish. She could be an outlier, regardless of whether she doped or not
Absolute outlier 100% the 60 up through 400 require very different skillsets
It doesn’t happen anymore. Jamaicans also don’t run indoors.
Irina Privalova was world-class from 60m up to 400m hurdles in the 90’s.
That's the thing. The GDR sporting authorities would have recognised her talent when she was very young. From that moment on she would have been forced to dope whether she wanted to or not and the authorities would not have cared less about any risk to her long term health.
She was most likely a phenomenal talent. But she absolutely doped as it was mandatory under the USSR in order to be able to compete, and she willingly complied and then has lied about it for decades since. Her talent is far superior to her character, because she was a winner, but much more a cheater.
@@Kissypoohyou do know USSR and GDR were two entirely different countries?
Would love to see more videos about unbroken world records from this era.
High Jump , Sotomayor
@@BlueHopi144 and high jump - Stefka Kostadinova...
@@pandaplutten2573
Indeed
Try World Championships Rome 1987, high jump world record. Stefka Kostadinova. Still stand.
I ran track in the 80's. I was slow but clean. However, we all knew that world class athletes were all doping in the 80's. Track, Football, Baseball, Swimmers, Marathoners... Nearly all the winners were dirty, and that's just how it was in the 80's.
I always maintained even to till this day most top athletes are on something, as the methods for testing improves so does the methods to get around it, a lot of PEDs leave the system very quickly, so cycling on and off at the right time should always be enough to evade given the current regulations.
it still happens they’re just better at hiding it
@@imyourdad09997 Ben Johnson has recntly said that PEDs aren't detectable within 12 hours of taking them now.
For you to even mention PED'S about Koch and not talk about PED'S in the video's you've done about FloJo, Carl Lewis. Is simply wrong, when you see the evidence against these athletes. Especially FloJo.
Well, this one is about a race FloJo was not in, so why should he. FloJo was absolutely doped, and doping was prevalent already at college level in USA. Several athletes from Norway that went to USA to study, were later caught with doping, especially throwers.
@@bjornlangoren3002he is saying he didn’t mention them in videos about the other two.
He never mentions it 'cause "Murica". Pretty obvious.
Of course Flo Jo did the same thing. Her voice dropped as fast as her times
The difference is since she was an American athlete when I have said the same thing people just want to deny it.
gross.
But we know what got bigger.
That was an outright world record attempt. I have never seen anyone else attempt that. A bit of strain at the end but she never broke form. Her form was amazing. I stopped a video of Sanya Richards American record at 47.6. She was still 15 meters from the finish.
Marita Koch 47,60/400 mtr. = Anabolics
Florence Griffith- Joyner 10,49/100 mtr. = spoon full of sugar
🙄
not many people believe FloJo was clean
I would like to see on Beamon/Lewis/Powell and why no one else could come close.
Carl Lewis was on HGH his whole career while trumpeting that he was squeaky clean. Sickening.
Americans didn't used to focus on the Olympics...in Bob Beamon's era and before, many Olympians were just good athletes who got encouraged by their coaches or other sports insiders just before the Olympics to give the events they qualified for a shot... that's why America used to complain so loudly about Communist countries doping back in the day.
@@terike9738
Carl Lewis achieved new records in his thirties, past his prime : the only way to account for the improvement would be PEDs.
Because drugs alone don't give you technical skills. Ben Johnson was way faster than Lewis in the first 30 mt but he would have brake his legs trying to jump
@@ZdenekZeman433
The long jump is a peculiar technical event which bans the only biomechanically useful method of countering the rotation induced on takeoff : the somersault. The hang and hitch kick are tricks used to prevent a somersault.
(Which accounts for why the long jump is no more than 9 m because the rules demands a very unnatural action. )
Without the IAAF rules, using both feet for launch vertically, and a somersault/s, to maintain stability, a jump of over 12 m would be the norm.
The Women's 100m, 200m, 400m and 800m WR's were all set in the early to mid 80's and are all dubious to say the least.
I'm going with the "East German Training" as the explanation.
Let's see. All the other runners competing against Kock have stated that they have used some type of doping, but Kock has said that she did not take any substance to enhance her performance, then she is one incredible athlete.
В 1962 году Питер Снелл пробежал , на травяной дорожке, 880 ярдов за 145.1( 144.3 800м по ходу) Как рекорд Океании он продержался более 50 лет, хотя там хватало классных бегунов , беги он на современном Мондо в современных шиповках, его рекорд был бы не менее 142 Много бегунов бежало быстрее по прошествии 60 лет? Ещё Лидьярд писал, что если генетически одаренный бегун , на пике формы, установит рекорд, то побить его будет очень сложно. А у Кох была потрясающая базовая скорость 7.04 60м , возможно в этом секрет ее успеха. Что касается допинга, то все были в равных условиях. Просто в ГДР это поставили на научную основу, а немецкая педантичность и широкие возможности в поисках талантов( социалистическая система давала огромные возможности) - секрет успеха спортсменов ГДР
It's mere coincidence she has the legs of a race horse and the hair of a man. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Watch the runner in lane 1 actually closed up on the Koch as they came to the line? She was much farther back in the turn.
Jose Canseco, the baseball player, juiced up and went from barely running bases to stealing bases and became a serious all star player.
@@ЭдгарГольцов all the dope in the world wont matter if she doesn't do the work. She must have REALLY worked hard to gain so much.
@@SuperChuckRaney Кох, в отличие от Кратохвиловой, на мужчину совсем не похожа и никак, внешне, не отличалась от других бегуний на 400м
@@ЭдгарГольцов I looked again, you are correct, I had them backwards
Seb Coe’s 800m record lasted a while too. At the time was considered incredible, if not impossible. No one doubts his performance
Everyone doubts it
People do doubt Coe, but with Koch it’s not about doubt. There are records from the East German government from the time which have been released showing her program of steroid use. She did use drugs. It’s official. Not just a rumour.
It was never considered impossible and much faster times have been run since.
And they have only gotten better . . . at avoiding positive drug tests
If Flo-Jo can run 10.49 then 47.60 doesn’t seem that unbelievable 😊
flo was definitely on roids too and the wind was like +5 that day
@@h1dd3n11 Flo was quickly cremated following her unexpected & sudden death. Nothing to see here, folks...Move along...
@@Lifetalk849 After her heart exploded.
@@TheJhtlag 😢
@@h1dd3n11 10:49- if the wind was a factor (which i do not deny) why didn't 2-8 lanes run super times as well
1. Look at Koch at 4:02. She looks almost indistinguishable from a man.
2. Doping disproportionately benefits women because it makes athletes more masculine and men are already masculine, so it affects them less. If Marita Koch didn't set her records through doping, where are the 1980s track records set by the East German men? There are none. It's just the women. That's the same reason the Chinese women, but not the Chinese men, set all kinds of swimming world records, and then the whole era suddenly disappeared the moment their massive doping program came to light.
3. Koch has repeatedly said: "I never broke any East German anti-drug laws." She has been careful NEVER to say, "I never broke any international anti-drug laws" because she knows she did.
4. There are officials who likely want her record to endure (quite possibly because it is one of the few track records not set by a black woman). Sebastian Coe and his colleagues on the International Olympic Committee have, for unknown and questionable reasons, gone very easy on Marita Koch all of these years. I have never heard anyone ask her the second question. For shame. The blind eye turned to this glaring scandal has deprived many deserving 400m female athletes of recognition and revenue.
The athlete we see at 4:02 is not Marita Koch but Jarmila Kratochvilova.
An Aussie Raylene Boyle kept coming second to the east Germans back in the day. It saddens me that a legendary athlete never got the accolades she deserved. World & Olympic Gold were stolen by not the athletes, but a evil German athletics program you would only imagine seeing in China, Russia or some other godless nation. Your a immortal of Athletics Raylene & one day you will be recognised for your greatness, ambassador for sport & as a humble human being 🏅🎖️
Boyle was almost certainly also on PED's.
stop being so naive, UK Aus US and Western Europe athletes were on something or another, the intensity of training and techniques of the eastern bloc and being able to do it full time wihout needing to work is as likely to have a significant advantage aside from being juiced.
IMO this record is definitely drug fuelled, but I also believe that is true for the women's 100m, 200m and 800m WRs.
The difference is that the 100m and 200m WR are under real threat because there is a group of athletes pushing each other closer and closer to breaking it. 400m has been different for over 30 years because so few athletes break 49s, so breaking 47s looks impossible. For far too long, there has been a big psychological barrier to even going after this record, I would go so far as to say that the barrier is at 49s flat. However, now we have 3-4 athletes who are clearly capable of sub 49s on a regular basis. Once 49s is no longer seen as a barrier for the elite performers they will push closer and closer to the WR.
Bodies have limits
Konstandanova's women's high jump record of 2.09m stood for 37 years until last month (July 2024), and was broken by Yaroslava Mahuchikh from Ukraine. I thought it might never be broken, but all it took was one great jump on one particularly good day for Yaroslava.
Doping continues to this day. In fact, it might even dominate many track and field events.
In men's 100m sprinting, I noticed that best performers seem to follow a bell curve down to around 10s, where an anomalous grouping occurs below 10s that does not follow statistical expectations. ChatGPT agrees: "In summary, the grouping of sprinters with times below 10 seconds is statistically unusual and can be considered an outlier phenomenon when compared to the general population of sprinters with times above 10 seconds."
From a 2016 Independent article: "Of the 30 fastest 100m times ever, nine - including the top three - have been run by Bolt. Incredible as it seems, the other 21 were run by athletes who have tested positive at some point in their careers for doping."
And the trajectory of Bolt's track career suggests that something fishy might have gone on with him as well.
So Koch and East Germany might be the rule rather than the exception.
chat gpt sucks really hardcore and gives wrong information and chopped answers more than 50% of the time
Untouchable record after 30+ years 😂 I understand most athletes at the top are on something but this is just next level doping right here
Her PR was only .17 faster than McLaughlin until she was almost a year and a half older than McLaughlin, who didn't event have a chance to race during peak this summer. Totally dumb, click bait video.
PEDs these days are much better. So are recovery methods and shoes.
@@robertbucks5537yet the record is still untouchable suggesting the amount of drugs they were doing was higher then those today
@@robertbucks5537so why hasn’t it gotten broken yet. Yes peds a better now but athletes obv take less of them nowadays, otherwise this record would have already been smashed. It’s obv that in the DDR they had some insane shit.
@@xithr5674Well its a lot about genetics if you have extraordinary athlete in one generation, yes then the record can stay for long periods of time.
Don't quite know what you mean by mystery here. Those who followed Koch's career at the time weren't mystified by her 47.60, she would surely have clocked something like that had she been allowed to compete at the Los Angeles Olympics one year earlier.
1980's The Woman's Era of DRUGS and many Intersex competitors.
If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and looks like a duck. IT IS A DUCK!!
You mean its a d..i...*...k... 🤫
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
While East Germany and several eastern bloc countries under the USSR umbrella took PED use among their athletes to another level from the 1970's until the Soviet breakup in 1989, the US sprinters of the Carl Lewis/Flo Jo era picked up the mantle of top cheating country in track and field sports into the 90's until the IOC and international governing anti-doping agency started to do more sophisticated and random drug tests. To this day international athletes still take chances using specilized medical technicians/nutritionists and rogue doctors to help evade PED detection, but it's believed to be not as prevalent as the 1970's to 1990's.
He would be a sick bantamweight in the ufc 🤣🤣🤣
The dopping really hit a high in the 80s especially eastern block countries
That's why all the doping hunters came from the east after the fall of the iron curtain.
All over the world in fact.
Few people outside the former Eastern Block can imagine to which extent athletes were not only the product of drugs, but also of talent scouting and coaching from a *very* early age on, and of extensive daily school sport. By consequence Eastern European athletes weren't only dominating in disciplines where drugs would be decisive, but also in disciplines like gymnastics, figure skating or ski jumping.
Truly amazing what performance enhancing drug can do.
More like hard work and drugs. I mean everyone in pro athletics is on drugs today too
@alexmichl3137 We are talking about banned or prohibited drugs.
@@benden5095 Ok *PEDS
0:02 -- Jim Lampley, later so strongly associated with HBO boxing, commentating.
@@firstnamelastname9215 Anton Chigurh
OK, Jim!
@@Tom-y1j Harold Lederman?
@@ButOneThingIsNeedful I think so, good call. I just remember him yelling "OK Jim" after Lampley asked what he thought about the round. Good boxing back then.
It’s like trying to figure out why the MLB season home run record was broken 6 times within a 3 year span in 40 years and never again since (except for Aaron Judge). It’s not rocket science. 😂
Would be interested in the men’s high jump world record.
Lots of US and British athletes have been juiced out of their minds over the year like Linford Christie, Michael Johnson, Flo Jo, Denise Lewis etc etc but not a word about it of course, why is that i wonder?????
Not a word?
Well we all know about Flo Jo and Christie but never heard anything about the other 2.
I almost feel like track and field just needs to have a world record and then a decade record that is records just for the decade. Some of these are just not going to be beaten naturally so there is no point.
The second you said East Germany, the case was closed.
Ben Johnson took the rap, but virtually everyone was using PEDs.
In any case Marita Koch had a wonderfully economic running style.
Yep, i just found out that 6 of the runners in that race poped hot for roids,
Johnson just didn't have a good enough team to hide it and other nations probably wanted to make sure he was caught. Johnsons physique was too excessive. Notice the sprinters of today, the science seems to have directed runners to be lighter and leaner with less muscle as opposed to more muscular but heavier. I am just using the eye test.
@@johnnyfry2
All the athletes in the 1988 Seoul Olympics were given an endocrine test : gross steroid abuse causes a hormone imbalance. 85% of the athletes failed the test. (This came out in the Ben Johnson appeal. )
The supposed infraction by Ben Johnson was proved in court to be impossible : 100% purity in a urine sample is impossible. The Seoul authorities lied.
Ben Johnson was disqualified for having a hormone imbalance which 85% of the athletes had. When queried, the IOC replied they were not a democracy. Ben Johnson was a scapegoat.
@@michaeledwards2251 Are you saying he didn't juice? lol. Yes, all but one in the 100M Finals that year were using, Ben was no exception, he admitted it. He got caught, they didn't
@@johnnyfry2
What part of a hormone imbalance didn't you understand : Ben Johnson was shown to be a gross steroid abuser. The point being 85% of ALL the 1988 Seoul athletes had the same evidence against them and should have all been disqualified.
Ben Johnson would not have been a scapegoat if all 85% of all the Seoul 1988 Olympic athletes had been disqualified for doping. Only 1 in 6 would have been left. Such an action, combined with life time bans for the 5 in 6 would have put a stop to most doping.
(There would always be a few dopers left, but they would have to hide their activities. )
The most straight forward explanation is this was a male athlete. There has almost certainly been performance enhancing drugs used since this world record was set and still, no one close. Things have changed now and these things can be more open. It won't be long before this record is broken by another athlete who was born male but competes as female.
No matter how you slice it this dude was fast.
it's a guy.
Her teammates admitting to using drugs
She still has the WR and is denying using drugs.
Would she admit to it like her teammates if she didn't still hold the World Record ?
@@Scalaflow
Given the compensation scheme for athletes who suffered from forced drug usage is tiny, the benefits from having the World Record far outweigh them. No reason for her to admit anything.
There is one record in running that will never be broken again, its Emil Zatopeks. Nobody ever is going to win olympic gold in 5000, 10000 and Marathon in one olympics ever again and the marathon is the race they never ran before until this olympics!!! LOL. These events are so specific that you wont even be able to do 5 and 10k in one race, forget Marathon....thats completely different. I love when Emil asked who is the best runner before they started, and he just followed the runner until he just dropped him towards the end ...
The only reason it hasn't been broken is the spacing of the events ....Zataopek had more time to recover before he ran the marathon.Farah won 5 and 10 twice and Lassie Veren once .in the Olympic games.(.it has done done 6 times ) if they put the marathon on a later day ,..it would have been done.. Zataopek had 8 days to rest between the 10,000 and tbe marathon.😮
I watched many of her races, she was an amazing athlete. East Germany had also Marlies Gohr, Barbel Bokhel and Sabine Busch which are amazing athletes
I wonder how amazing those Krauts would be without the juice. Ditto the DDR swimmers. Deutschland Doping Republic. Fits.
All of them cheaters
I’ll never forget Marita Kochs performances, they were unbelievable. When you watch her in full flight she looked like an inexhaustible machine. I suspect her doping profile became available on the black market was studied and became the blueprint that influenced many top athletes in the West including Flo-Jo. Anyone in their right mind and senses can see humans who move that fast and powerfully are on something more than carrot juice, broccoli and chicken.
imagine her running in a better lane.
What an amazing time and athlete. Tremendous athlete.
Tremendous doper. 😂. She’s more juiced than Jamba.
Sydney McClaughlin-Levrone just ran a 47.70 split in the 4x400 at the 2024 Olympics. She needs to devote a year to the open 400 and break this record. No doubt she could do it.
Was it the first leg? Otherwise it was a running start.
@@phillipschuman4307 It was the second leg. But not a very graceful handoff. I guess I’m unclear when the timer starts and ends on a middle leg of a relay.
@@kevink5866 Thanks for your reply.
How the 4x100 relay works: Each baton handoff must occur inside a 20-meter changeover zone, between two yellow marks. The outgoing runner can start running up to 10 meters ahead of the changeover zone, but can only receive the baton within the zone.
The legs are timed by the 100 meter marks, but the 2nd-4th runners can have up to a 30 meter running start.
@@phillipschuman4307 Thanks for the explanation! A running start sure makes a difference. But I’m still hoping she’ll devote some of her career to the straight 400, would love to see how fast she can go. Her Olympic 400 hurdle time would have been something like the 5th best open 400 time this year.
People really think They still don't use drugs nowadays.!😂😂
Exactly. People are so naive it hurts
A lot of Americans still think FloJo was clean. 🙄
This is so true....and still the record stands. It is an amazing record, juiced or not juiced. I think Levrone has a shot.
Thats one fast dude.