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I’m thankful you’re exposing this. I’ve made a lot of people mad at me but there isn’t a nice way to say that ivf leads to babies put in the freezer or the garbage. Cancer rates for the child sky rocket and maternal mortality is especially high in ivf if it includes a surrogate which is a whole other horror story. Jennifer Lahl would be a great guest for y’all! Babies are a blessing NOT something we are entitled to at all costs including death to the discarded embryos.
Soo appreciate the light being shed on this. Anytime I try to get into the conversation, it’s always met with the response, ‘we’ll natural pregnancy sometimes ends in miscarriage, so parents are killing babies too. How’s IVF different…’ so frustrating as it’s hard to talk someone out of a nonsensical comparison.
I was always neutral on IVF until I saw something about where this couple had like 6 children and decided they were finished having children. They were asked what they wanted to do with the frozen embryos. They could keep them frozen, trash them, donate them to science or donate them to someone else. I was horrified! That changed my mind and this just reinforced my belief that it's wrong.
GOD Has Shown You much favor, Sister Rosan. That's Awesome! May GOD Bless You and Show You even more, Moving You to and Stirring Up to even More Faithful Obedience -for Your Joy and HIS Glory!!-) If i may help, as i'm Commanded, but absolutely Delight In: One way You can respond to HIM and HIS Great Grace to You is to take the [non-existant] grey area, or 'neutrality' to the Word of GOD, and see What HE Says about That. HE has a Black/White, Right/Wrong/, Sin or Righteousness thing going very consistently and does not leave room for [luke warm type] in between, or neutrality. This will help You not only to seal Your Gifted Repentance to GOD for HIS Glory, but will help You in every furture and maybe even current event. Knowing GOD DoesN't Leave Room for neutrality or indifference, but Gives Clear Direction for Us to Follow in what areas of Life‽-) ..All, Yes. If you have any questions, do mot hesitate.
"All Holy Scripture is GOD Breathed and Profitable for Teaching, for Reproof, for Correction, and for Training In Righteousness, that the Man of GOD (generic use; this includes You) Will Be Complete, Fully Equipped for Every Good Work; Laid Out Beforehand for Us that We shoukd Ealk In Them."-)
This is such an eye opener ! Yes we really need to address this. I never thought it was like that, but didnt really hear about the details either. Thank you for this episode its much needed !!
I already know where this is going to a certain extent, with what I already know my wife and I would never do IVF. Adoption FTW, after all, we have all been adopted ourselves if we are in Christ.
The gospel is essential. And keeping it clean is important. Also can you please get to the title subject of the video more quickly in general? Takes a long time just to get to the title of the video. For example, this one starts at 21:42.
I know, it’s so annoying. I can’t stand useless chit chat and it’s frustrating if you want to share the video with someone (esp non Christian’s). Not sure why they can’t finish their chit chat before hitting record (or edit it out). Thanks for posting the true start time.
Allie Stuckey has some really great episodes about this. Jennifer Lahl has been her main guest for these episodes and she is a great resource for research into this topic.
Thank you so much for taking on the IVF topic. I've been fighting this battle for a long time. I have had to educate Christians on what really happens in IVF & unfortunately, many cannot see past their compassion for infertile couples to the wickedness that IVF is. Fortunately, there have been 1 or 2 whose eyes the Lord has opened. We need to get this info into the hands of pastors who are shepherding their congregations through things like infertility so that they can give biblical counsel.
I've been thinking for several years now that the church needs to rethink this. I've had several friends who conceived through IVF and until I had a deep conversation with one of my friends I had no idea how morally wrong it seemed. Like she's done having kids so now she has to figure out what she wants to do with the remaining embryos. She got to choose the gender if all her kids which I didn't know until she told me you could do.
I used to work in the fertility pharmacy field. I never thought about the idea of the embryos not being used as abortion. It rethinks My worldview for sure
IVF is helpful for a married couple who can only make 1-2 embryos and not destroy any embryos. Part of the process is that you can choose how many embryos you want to create or how many eggs you want to fertilize. Just don’t create more embryos than the number of children that you want.
Not that simple. Most of those embryos are not viable. That’s why they create so many (hoping at least one will take). This is why it was so controversial back in the day-it’s playing God and trivializing life.
A friend of mine considered IVF after infertility & multiple miscarriages. But she learned the truth about IVF and knew it was not what the Lord wanted her to do. She & her husband chose to honor the Lord. Now, she has a newborn & they're adopting their foster child!
My in-laws say they are pro life but are going through IVF. There was clearly a culling process in the embryo selection, and one baby is now in a freezer until they decide when they are ready to have their second child. Even though it seems obvious that this would be wrong, not everyone thinks through things consistently or deeply, and it’s unfortunate that there isn’t much IVF content online from pro life organizations. It’s very helpful to see this video.
I've only know about the achy pain from needles and the taken hormones in the process to do it besides so much money put into it. Wow, completely wrong.
Thank you guys so much for bringing this to light, Laura is right about ending it and finding homes for the already created embryos 😢😢😢I thought adopting the embryo was a noble cause until she said that the money then gets put back into the baby making companies. Wow, such a battle at hand we must fight to get this outlawed asap😢
I think this discussion missed the nuances of the subject. Listening to this you get the impression that the IVF process is a conveyor belt which we have no control over. - you don’t need to use the “porn room” - sometimes you don’t need any kind of donor - you do know how many eggs and embryos are getting fertilised and you know which ones are viable - you do get the choice of what to do with all the embryos, as Christian, I’d say you would have to carry all of them. Remember not all fertilised eggs make it to the point they are viable Lots of nuances I’d be happy to talk with these guys about my wife’s and my journey as we went through all of this moral choices from a Christian worldview.
@@Kili098 the thaw success rate can indeed be as high as 80-85%. The thaw rate to birth rate is 10%. 10% of those thawed make it to a live birth according to a study at NIH.
These are blanket statements and unfair to those of us Christians that did IVF in the most responsible way possible. Yes, there are moral forks in the road and you have to navigate them so you don’t do things like throw away embryos. It can be done responsibly (it costs more). You have to find a clinic that supports limited insemination. 1. You don’t have to use the ‘collection’ room. It’s done at home now. The couple can have ‘relations’ and collect the ‘swimmers’. Yes, the female is taking hormones and there is risk, but that’s her risk to take. You don’t have to test embryos for defects (we didn’t). You can say to the clinic, only fertilize X number of eggs (in our case the amount you’re willing to implant). You freeze your excess eggs (not embryos). The clinic calls you numerous times a day with updates on the stages of embryos, many clinics have it under video and you can watch. At the end they tell you how many made it to viability. You transfer 1 or 2. If they make it great. Carry to live birth. Then implant your remaining ones. No embryo is left behind. I did it. It’s doable. Discuss the nuances. Don’t just scare those looking at it as an option.
Definitely agree. My wife and I had a very similar journey to yourself. We were aware of all the moral choices, which were left on our hands. We had 2 4 embryos make it to day 5, 2 did not develop any further after implantation, 2 did but one died at 9 weeks. The last is going to be 1 soon. I’d be happy to discuss it with these guys because not every journey is the same and Christians can be wise and choose the right clinic and process for them.
@Laceynova Thank you for sharing; I was definitely wondering this myself while watching this episode. They asked if IVF could be 'reformed', then quickly dismissed that option without really explaining why. Thanks for this counterpoint. I've seen other videos from Apologia where they are asked why they picket abortion clinics and not IVF clinics, and not once has anyone pointed out the simple fact that at the end of a successful IVF, a human exists where they didn't before, and at the end of a successful abortion, a human no longer exists where they once did. We absolutely can affirm the value of human life, and affirm embryos as humans in both the areas of abortion and IVF, and not be inconsistent.
100% this. We did IVF very similar to you. There was no stage that inherently involved anything bad or destructive. No embryos killed, nothing like that. I made a long comment very similar to yours, but you said it much more concisely.
I would love to see a deep dive into the disgusting details. As there was no new information for me in this particular video, and I would like to know more about the intricacies. All for the sake of evangelizing.
A person will find a way to justify anything they desire more than God. It’s easy to be blind to this in our own lives. I suspect most of the pushback about IVF that came from Christians who have gone through IVF is because they know very well it’s the truth. None of us want our sins called out. It stings. Thank God for His mercy and the cross.
see my post. I'm a Christian who went through IVF. I'm not stinging because my sin got called out. Nothing me or my spouse did during the process was sinful.
IMO children should be brought about in the manner that our Father designed and that's it. I know that it will hurt some people's feelings but that is what I truly believe.
do you oppose C-sections to save a baby if there's a complication during pregnancy or even during labor? or do you think any medical intervention is bad?
@@jaeves007 so a c section isn't "bringing about like our Father designed". Which means by your logic, if IVF is bad because it's not the "natural" way, then you have to take that same position with c sections.
@joeyn985 you're completely off base if you're trying to equate a life saving/preserving measure to what IVF and all of the "reproductive" technology does. My comment - the brought about - meant intercourse/sex between a man and a woman. Not creating babies in test tubes and petri dishes, not using some other woman's eggs and some other man's sperm, not using a surrogate. In no way did I make any implications about how a child is delivered. Please research how these measures actually work.
IF it were "We've just taken it too far", then that implies that there was a Righteous starting place -which would make it not only Reedemable, but Reformable. But, when You stick with the thought process You clearly had (just didnt articulate); We need to stop playing GOD. Which You touched on when You stated WHO Opens and Closes the Womb! Keep Get'n It for The KINGdom ~ sDg
So many comments here defensive of ivf, and I get it especially from those who have beautiful children from ivf, it’s personal, but it doesn’t change truth. Comments like, “just more regulation,” “more monitoring,” and it’s fine. God says don’t compromise with evil. Tiptoeing around land minds, is dangerous, agreed? Passion doesn’t equal truth. And those that say they did it “as morally as possible,” it’s at the ability for others not doing that, to do it the wrong way.
You guys should get Lila Rose on your podcast! She has a good episode on her channel about the dark side on IVF and a ladies testimony about how she was convicted for her practice in a women's clinic. Blessings!!
I have a healthy child that survived 5 years plus freeze implanted beautifully & we have a gorgeous child. Donation was indeed free. We paid for thaw and implantation! God gave us a beautiful gift
This is an eye-opener to me I'm glad my sister in Alberta speaking on this issue is there anyway I could connect with my sister in Christ speak in a church or an open format
I always thought the process of ivf was unnatural, and never thought heard of other Christians being for it. But, I’m glad somebody is finally explaining more about what happens in these places. Thank you and God bless❤ 🙏
I am a Christian & we did IVF & plan to use all embryos so none will get destroyed. And we feel God helped us save up the money so we could have a chance at our miracle baby. I 100% disagree with people using IVF for the wrong reasons (selecting gender) or destroying un-used embryos. But we cant lump all Christians in one box on this issue..especially when not everyone understands infertility. God bless ❤
@@katjavestergaard489don't limit God's power of what He can do. Maybe God did do what you said, but there is a chance He did not. Pray about it. I try to be careful about when I say that I feel God did this or showed me that or told me this when talking to people.
so my wife and I did IVF as a Christian couple and there's some fair points here, and also some misinformation. I'll address the points made in the video piece by piece. 1) getting donated egg and sperm are bad - not sure why. it's not different than adopting. but the cartoon implies that this is somehow bad. 2) baby made in petri dish and they grade the embryos and discard the defective ones before you know it. This isn't entirely true. yes they're in a petri dish, but they don't just discard viable embryos. The only ones they automatically discard are the ones that, after fertilization, don't grow and are effectively stillborn/dead. This happens naturally in the body anyways. After that, they do assign a grade to the surviving ones. But if the embryo is living and growing and not dead/failed, they don't automatically discard it. If you choose to have that done, I agree that's wrong. But that's not an automatic part of the process. 3) cross your fingers and hope the embryo sticks and you get that one perfect baby - or 2, or 3, or 8. So this isn't different from normal conception. embryo is conceived in fallopian tubes and goes to uterus, and hopefully it sticks. Otherwise it dies. And if it sticks, there's always a chance of twins. This is the same with IVF. Most places will only transfer one embryo at a time. Sometimes they will do more for older women who have less time, but my wife at 29 years old only was allowed to do 1 embryo at a time. They don't want twins or triplets because it's high risk. There's also no chance of 8 babies, that's just silly exaggeration. 4) selective reduction, killing extra implanted embryos. That's a procedure that exists, but it's not inherent to IVF. It's basically abortion. It isn't a normal or inherent part of the IVF process, it's something separate. 5) extra embryos are stored to try again, discard, or donate to science. Yes they're stored. And you don't have to discard or donate. You can keep them forever and/or keep transferring all of them. You never NEED to destroy them, so again, that's a conscious choice people may make, not an inherent part of IVF. it's like saying getting pregnant is bad because sometimes people get abortions - obviously not, you just choose to not get an abortion. 6) the start of the process is bad because masturbation and porn are bad - again, not actually necessary. People choose whether or not to watch porn, it's unrelated. As for masturbation, I think within the context of a marriage it's fine. It's something being done together. Also, there are provisions for the wife to help collect the sample. you can do it at home, for example. So again, the parts that you say are sinful aren't actually inherent to the process, it's just an option. You don't have to do it that way. Also, most clinics allow religious couples to collect the sample together. 7) the hormones are bad for you and hard - no argument there. it was rough. But if your argument is that hormones are a sin, do you also oppose pregnant women taking vitamin supplements, or a women needing hormone supplements after getting pregnant in order to keep the baby? I doubt you would oppose that. 8) you mention how some places transfer up to 4 - maybe, but most places don't, or only in very rare circumstances. Most do one embryo at a time to maximize chances of healthy pregnancy with lower risk. 9) you call surrogacy "rent-a-womb", and say it's bad because you're taking the baby away from the birth mother after birth...but how is that different from adoption? if life begins at conception, adopting a 1 month old embryo vs a 1 year old baby isn't morally different. 10) some embryos don't survive the thaw - this is true, but very rare. Most do survive, around 95%. Here's the thing, through every step of a natural pregnancy, many embryos die. Half of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus and that embryo dies. The 50% who do stick, many of them (25-50%) end up failing to grow, dying, etc in the first couple weeks. Almost every woman who has kids has probably had multiple embryos die inside them. It's the sad reality of life. 11) clinics sell embryos which is bad and it's human trafficking. Adoption also costs money. Does that mean adopting kids is buying kids and human trafficking? nobody would make that argument because it's silly. Adopting an embryo isn't worse morally than adopting a baby - they're exactly the same. 12) ivf has gone too far and kids with disabilities get discarded, gay men have kids, etc - abortion is also used to kill disabled babies. But it's not an inherent part of IVF. We were given the option of getting the embryos tested for disabilities, we chose not to. Just like we never screened the baby in the womb for disabilities, because we wouldn't abort them either way. And gay men can also adopt, so it's no different there. Once again, IVF isn't inherently worse than normal adoption. 13) you claim that IVF is an idol for christians, or that they feel they have a right to have children. This is just silly and sort of an ad hominem attack. I don't feel that IVF is an idol for me. I don't worship it or pray to it lol. That's just a silly accusation. And as for having a right to have children, that's also sorta silly. I don't have a right to anything. I trust it with God and put it in his hands. And if you're going to say that the human intervention is bad, then you'd also have to oppose prenatal supplements, vitamins, etc. because that's also human intervention to stop a baby from naturally dying in the womb. Some women can get pregnant without IVF but have hormone imbalances and require help to keep the conceived baby alive. Is that also wrong? do you think we shouldn't take medical action to keep unborn babies healthy and alive and instead just let nature take its course? in summary, there isn't anything actually inherently sinful or bad about IVF. Do some people who do IVF do sinful things like killing embryos? Sure. But some people who get pregnant naturally do sinful things like killing embryos, but that doesn't make getting pregnant naturally inherently bad because some people do bad things. If some people do bad things in the IVF process, that's on them, same as normal pregnancy, child adoption, etc. But the IVF process itself isn't actually bad and nothing you said actually made it bad, you just listed off bad things that some people choose to do during the process. happy to discuss this further, I'm pretty familiar with the details of the IVF process.
Too much logic for them to respond. Especially point 13. Calling those who can't get pregnant who seek an alternative method created by man and gifted by God (Psalm 24:1) is ludicrous. Never thought I see Apolgia bind the conscience of folks on something [not explicitly sinful] which can be done with one embryo despite the comment "that's rare" smh
@@andrewsuggs2381 honestly it's just a lot of ignorance on the part of these activists. Like you would think that if IVF is their focus, they'd be more informed on it. But several of their points are just outright false. And then it's combined with really shady logic of saying "well maybe you could do it without being bad but that's rare and if some people do IVF in a bad way that means the entire practice is bad". Imagine if there's a God fearing Christian couple out there who is struggling to conceive and sees this video and it makes them not do IVF and denies them the absolute Godly gift of having a child.
Thank God for embie donations. It was the only way we could add to our family ! Otherwise our son may never have been here at all! They built their family & they donated their additional embryo and now we have our complete family
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout The guy was like..."we shun repressive rules inhibiting creativity in our revolutionary LORE, media machine". Then when asked if a Mormon can submit content he's like...."well there ARE rules in the vetting process" 😂🤣. Even a "regular guy" can detect a snake oil salesman...(heck it was the woman who posed the question that deflated his whole BS💩 sales pitch).
If I'm going to choose to watch something, its going to be something that will truly lead my focus my attention to Christ wether fictional or true story. If it's a Bible story, it better be Biblically accurate. No longer interested in watching anything that wouldn't put a smile on God's face or at least He would be ok with.
Loor just got on it and found very rude joking and snorting coke. I thought it would be a great idea I like bearly biblical, but breaking laws from the preview alone a joke about herpes is just ungodly and against the word hope it gets better. When we start doing stuff which is gross and ungodly it is no better than regular tv honestly if it does not promote piety it is worthless. To be honest some secular movies are more proper than it.
You do NOT buy embryos! 🤦🏻♀️. How about more regulation of the IVF ? How about do more research speak to families that have adopted embryos ! Also, adoption cost is ridiculous
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout the family who did IVF. The clinic stated to me that there are times that the families may go MIA & just. Stop 🛑 paying then they decide next steps. They said that in their clinic, which is RMA of PA they have a donor list of families who are really desiring to have children & that donation is at times the only was to have a family. The wait for a donated embryo is about 18 months & you have to get counseling & have your body properly prepped for a successful implant and pregnancy. They also closely follow the expecting Mon through first trimester. Then regular OB
I am praying for you guys to come out of Calvinism. Don't want to be disrespectful guys but this isnt even Christianity. Let the texts speak for themselves. Do t approach the texts with your Calvinistic presups. Start with Ephesians 1.
@cartermoorer2070: Who has God called? "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev. 22:17. Now the call is to every man and woman and child on earth. Those that hear it are to take it up and pass it along. The kindness of God is wide enough to take in every individual; "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." These two texts are sufficient to scatter to the four winds all the theological trash that has been written to prove that God has but a set few that He has called, and no others. No soul should feel that he is not called, the call is to all, unfortunately, all do not come and make their calling and election sure. How many, I wonder, do not come because they are made to feel that they are not included in the call? One thing I do know, the day will come when we will find out.
Notice the things which Paul preached in 1 Cor. 1:17, 18: "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." Christ sent Paul to preach the gospel, and he did it, not using the wisdom of man's words, in order that his preaching might not be disannulled. He says, "Lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." When Paul preached among the Corinthians, he preached nothing but Christ and Him crucified, and that was the gospel. That gospel,-the cross of Christ-is the power of God unto salvation unto every one that believeth. Would anyone here seriously presume to hinder the preaching of the cross, because it has no part in a video of professed Christians?
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I was super impressed when she spoke about people assuming they deserve to have kids no matter what.
I’m thankful you’re exposing this. I’ve made a lot of people mad at me but there isn’t a nice way to say that ivf leads to babies put in the freezer or the garbage. Cancer rates for the child sky rocket and maternal mortality is especially high in ivf if it includes a surrogate which is a whole other horror story. Jennifer Lahl would be a great guest for y’all! Babies are a blessing NOT something we are entitled to at all costs including death to the discarded embryos.
Amen Sister Nikki
Soo appreciate the light being shed on this. Anytime I try to get into the conversation, it’s always met with the response, ‘we’ll natural pregnancy sometimes ends in miscarriage, so parents are killing babies too. How’s IVF different…’ so frustrating as it’s hard to talk someone out of a nonsensical comparison.
I was always neutral on IVF until I saw something about where this couple had like 6 children and decided they were finished having children. They were asked what they wanted to do with the frozen embryos. They could keep them frozen, trash them, donate them to science or donate them to someone else. I was horrified! That changed my mind and this just reinforced my belief that it's wrong.
GOD Has Shown You much favor, Sister Rosan. That's Awesome! May GOD Bless You and Show You even more, Moving You to and Stirring Up to even More Faithful Obedience -for Your Joy and HIS Glory!!-) If i may help, as i'm Commanded, but absolutely Delight In: One way You can respond to HIM and HIS Great Grace to You is to take the [non-existant] grey area, or 'neutrality' to the Word of GOD, and see What HE Says about That. HE has a Black/White, Right/Wrong/, Sin or Righteousness thing going very consistently and does not leave room for [luke warm type] in between, or neutrality. This will help You not only to seal Your Gifted Repentance to GOD for HIS Glory, but will help You in every furture and maybe even current event. Knowing GOD DoesN't Leave Room for neutrality or indifference, but Gives Clear Direction for Us to Follow in what areas of Life‽-) ..All, Yes. If you have any questions, do mot hesitate.
"All Holy Scripture is GOD Breathed and Profitable for Teaching, for Reproof, for Correction, and for Training In Righteousness, that the Man of GOD (generic use; this includes You) Will Be Complete, Fully Equipped for Every Good Work; Laid Out Beforehand for Us that We shoukd Ealk In Them."-)
This is such an eye opener ! Yes we really need to address this. I never thought it was like that, but didnt really hear about the details either. Thank you for this episode its much needed !!
Thank you for informing us. I had no idea and this never came across my mind. Let us grow from this and spread this message.
I already know where this is going to a certain extent, with what I already know my wife and I would never do IVF. Adoption FTW, after all, we have all been adopted ourselves if we are in Christ.
Amen. Have You thought about the "snow-flake Babies" that are alive, and how We should deal with this?
The gospel is essential. And keeping it clean is important. Also can you please get to the title subject of the video more quickly in general? Takes a long time just to get to the title of the video. For example, this one starts at 21:42.
I know, it’s so annoying. I can’t stand useless chit chat and it’s frustrating if you want to share the video with someone (esp non Christian’s). Not sure why they can’t finish their chit chat before hitting record (or edit it out).
Thanks for posting the true start time.
THANK YOU!!
IVF discussion begins at 17:26.
So much talking about unrelated stuff at the beginning of the videos
Thank you SO much. It was taking me forever to find the actual content.
Thank you
Thanks
Allie Stuckey has some really great episodes about this. Jennifer Lahl has been her main guest for these episodes and she is a great resource for research into this topic.
Thank you so much for taking on the IVF topic. I've been fighting this battle for a long time. I have had to educate Christians on what really happens in IVF & unfortunately, many cannot see past their compassion for infertile couples to the wickedness that IVF is. Fortunately, there have been 1 or 2 whose eyes the Lord has opened. We need to get this info into the hands of pastors who are shepherding their congregations through things like infertility so that they can give biblical counsel.
I've been thinking for several years now that the church needs to rethink this. I've had several friends who conceived through IVF and until I had a deep conversation with one of my friends I had no idea how morally wrong it seemed. Like she's done having kids so now she has to figure out what she wants to do with the remaining embryos. She got to choose the gender if all her kids which I didn't know until she told me you could do.
Why is it morally wrong?
@chefgav1. Did you listen to the interview?
Wow..
That doesn't sound right at all. Nope.
I used to work in the fertility pharmacy field. I never thought about the idea of the embryos not being used as abortion. It rethinks My worldview for sure
IVF is helpful for a married couple who can only make 1-2 embryos and not destroy any embryos. Part of the process is that you can choose how many embryos you want to create or how many eggs you want to fertilize. Just don’t create more embryos than the number of children that you want.
I wish more people would realize this and not be so close minded
Not that simple. Most of those embryos are not viable. That’s why they create so many (hoping at least one will take). This is why it was so controversial back in the day-it’s playing God and trivializing life.
A friend of mine considered IVF after infertility & multiple miscarriages. But she learned the truth about IVF and knew it was not what the Lord wanted her to do. She & her husband chose to honor the Lord. Now, she has a newborn & they're adopting their foster child!
Wow!! Oh I'm so happy for them, what a blessing!! Hallelujah!!!
My in-laws say they are pro life but are going through IVF. There was clearly a culling process in the embryo selection, and one baby is now in a freezer until they decide when they are ready to have their second child.
Even though it seems obvious that this would be wrong, not everyone thinks through things consistently or deeply, and it’s unfortunate that there isn’t much IVF content online from pro life organizations. It’s very helpful to see this video.
I've only know about the achy pain from needles and the taken hormones in the process to do it besides so much money put into it. Wow, completely wrong.
I'm at work, I wish I could watch live. Hoping to watch it tonight after I get off 🤞
Wow, very eye opening. Thank you for bringing this to light!
Thank you guys so much for bringing this to light, Laura is right about ending it and finding homes for the already created embryos 😢😢😢I thought adopting the embryo was a noble cause until she said that the money then gets put back into the baby making companies. Wow, such a battle at hand we must fight to get this outlawed asap😢
I have a dark IVF story from the late 2000s - if any of the discussion participants would like to add to their knowledge.
Seriously love Provoked!! Thank you for your work!!! ❤
I think this discussion missed the nuances of the subject.
Listening to this you get the impression that the IVF process is a conveyor belt which we have no control over.
- you don’t need to use the “porn room”
- sometimes you don’t need any kind of donor
- you do know how many eggs and embryos are getting fertilised and you know which ones are viable
- you do get the choice of what to do with all the embryos, as Christian, I’d say you would have to carry all of them. Remember not all fertilised eggs make it to the point they are viable
Lots of nuances I’d be happy to talk with these guys about my wife’s and my journey as we went through all of this moral choices from a Christian worldview.
How many embryos survive the process of thawing?
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout if you mean statistically it’s pretty high I believe. I’ve seen some say 90% survive.
@@Kili098 that's not accurate at all.
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout Please enlighten me, as I said I’ve seen some say 90%, some say 85%, if you have another number I’d be glad to hear it.
@@Kili098 the thaw success rate can indeed be as high as 80-85%. The thaw rate to birth rate is 10%. 10% of those thawed make it to a live birth according to a study at NIH.
These are blanket statements and unfair to those of us Christians that did IVF in the most responsible way possible.
Yes, there are moral forks in the road and you have to navigate them so you don’t do things like throw away embryos.
It can be done responsibly (it costs more). You have to find a clinic that supports limited insemination. 1. You don’t have to use the ‘collection’ room. It’s done at home now. The couple can have ‘relations’ and collect the ‘swimmers’. Yes, the female is taking hormones and there is risk, but that’s her risk to take. You don’t have to test embryos for defects (we didn’t). You can say to the clinic, only fertilize X number of eggs (in our case the amount you’re willing to implant). You freeze your excess eggs (not embryos). The clinic calls you numerous times a day with updates on the stages of embryos, many clinics have it under video and you can watch. At the end they tell you how many made it to viability. You transfer 1 or 2. If they make it great. Carry to live birth. Then implant your remaining ones. No embryo is left behind.
I did it. It’s doable.
Discuss the nuances. Don’t just scare those looking at it as an option.
Definitely agree. My wife and I had a very similar journey to yourself.
We were aware of all the moral choices, which were left on our hands. We had 2 4 embryos make it to day 5, 2 did not develop any further after implantation, 2 did but one died at 9 weeks. The last is going to be 1 soon.
I’d be happy to discuss it with these guys because not every journey is the same and Christians can be wise and choose the right clinic and process for them.
@Laceynova Thank you for sharing; I was definitely wondering this myself while watching this episode. They asked if IVF could be 'reformed', then quickly dismissed that option without really explaining why. Thanks for this counterpoint.
I've seen other videos from Apologia where they are asked why they picket abortion clinics and not IVF clinics, and not once has anyone pointed out the simple fact that at the end of a successful IVF, a human exists where they didn't before, and at the end of a successful abortion, a human no longer exists where they once did. We absolutely can affirm the value of human life, and affirm embryos as humans in both the areas of abortion and IVF, and not be inconsistent.
Amen!! Ageee totally as someone who is now pregnany with my IVF baby & a follower of Christ
100% this. We did IVF very similar to you. There was no stage that inherently involved anything bad or destructive. No embryos killed, nothing like that.
I made a long comment very similar to yours, but you said it much more concisely.
I would love to see a deep dive into the disgusting details. As there was no new information for me in this particular video, and I would like to know more about the intricacies. All for the sake of evangelizing.
I love the name "Choice for Two"... that's really great!!
Wow- eye opening. I had no clue.
A person will find a way to justify anything they desire more than God. It’s easy to be blind to this in our own lives.
I suspect most of the pushback about IVF that came from Christians who have gone through IVF is because they know very well it’s the truth. None of us want our sins called out. It stings. Thank God for His mercy and the cross.
see my post. I'm a Christian who went through IVF. I'm not stinging because my sin got called out. Nothing me or my spouse did during the process was sinful.
How do you spell and find the Lore tv subscription ?
Wow, so eye opening!
Curious what your thoughts are on single embryo transfer...IF that meant only fertilizing ONE egg and then implanting that ONE embryo
IMO children should be brought about in the manner that our Father designed and that's it. I know that it will hurt some people's feelings but that is what I truly believe.
do you oppose C-sections to save a baby if there's a complication during pregnancy or even during labor? or do you think any medical intervention is bad?
@joeyn985 c- sections, which can be life saving, are a completely different subject than IVF.
@@jaeves007 so a c section isn't "bringing about like our Father designed". Which means by your logic, if IVF is bad because it's not the "natural" way, then you have to take that same position with c sections.
@joeyn985 you're completely off base if you're trying to equate a life saving/preserving measure to what IVF and all of the "reproductive" technology does. My comment - the brought about - meant intercourse/sex between a man and a woman. Not creating babies in test tubes and petri dishes, not using some other woman's eggs and some other man's sperm, not using a surrogate. In no way did I make any implications about how a child is delivered. Please research how these measures actually work.
@@joeyn985 C-sections are lifesaving, whereas bringing a child into this world is a choice
IF it were "We've just taken it too far", then that implies that there was a Righteous starting place -which would make it not only Reedemable, but Reformable. But, when You stick with the thought process You clearly had (just didnt articulate); We need to stop playing GOD. Which You touched on when You stated WHO Opens and Closes the Womb! Keep Get'n It for The KINGdom
~ sDg
So many comments here defensive of ivf, and I get it especially from those who have beautiful children from ivf, it’s personal, but it doesn’t change truth. Comments like, “just more regulation,” “more monitoring,” and it’s fine. God says don’t compromise with evil. Tiptoeing around land minds, is dangerous, agreed? Passion doesn’t equal truth.
And those that say they did it “as morally as possible,” it’s at the ability for others not doing that, to do it the wrong way.
read my comment.
you don't get to just declare your opinion as truth and then dismiss counterarguments as "being defensive".
The center for bioethics and culture network is a youtube channel that has some great videos about the entire "big fertility industry"
You guys should get Lila Rose on your podcast! She has a good episode on her channel about the dark side on IVF and a ladies testimony about how she was convicted for her practice in a women's clinic. Blessings!!
I have a healthy child that survived 5 years plus freeze implanted beautifully & we have a gorgeous child. Donation was indeed free. We paid for thaw and implantation! God gave us a beautiful gift
This is an eye-opener to me I'm glad my sister in Alberta speaking on this issue is there anyway I could connect with my sister in Christ speak in a church or an open format
I always thought the process of ivf was unnatural, and never thought heard of other Christians being for it.
But, I’m glad somebody is finally explaining more about what happens in these places.
Thank you and God bless❤ 🙏
I am a Christian & we did IVF & plan to use all embryos so none will get destroyed. And we feel God helped us save up the money so we could have a chance at our miracle baby. I 100% disagree with people using IVF for the wrong reasons (selecting gender) or destroying un-used embryos. But we cant lump all Christians in one box on this issue..especially when not everyone understands infertility. God bless ❤
@@katjavestergaard489don't limit God's power of what He can do. Maybe God did do what you said, but there is a chance He did not. Pray about it. I try to be careful about when I say that I feel God did this or showed me that or told me this when talking to people.
I have a question is there a good Christian birth control?
Condoms or natural family planning
so my wife and I did IVF as a Christian couple and there's some fair points here, and also some misinformation. I'll address the points made in the video piece by piece.
1) getting donated egg and sperm are bad - not sure why. it's not different than adopting. but the cartoon implies that this is somehow bad.
2) baby made in petri dish and they grade the embryos and discard the defective ones before you know it. This isn't entirely true. yes they're in a petri dish, but they don't just discard viable embryos. The only ones they automatically discard are the ones that, after fertilization, don't grow and are effectively stillborn/dead. This happens naturally in the body anyways. After that, they do assign a grade to the surviving ones. But if the embryo is living and growing and not dead/failed, they don't automatically discard it. If you choose to have that done, I agree that's wrong. But that's not an automatic part of the process.
3) cross your fingers and hope the embryo sticks and you get that one perfect baby - or 2, or 3, or 8. So this isn't different from normal conception. embryo is conceived in fallopian tubes and goes to uterus, and hopefully it sticks. Otherwise it dies. And if it sticks, there's always a chance of twins. This is the same with IVF. Most places will only transfer one embryo at a time. Sometimes they will do more for older women who have less time, but my wife at 29 years old only was allowed to do 1 embryo at a time. They don't want twins or triplets because it's high risk. There's also no chance of 8 babies, that's just silly exaggeration.
4) selective reduction, killing extra implanted embryos. That's a procedure that exists, but it's not inherent to IVF. It's basically abortion. It isn't a normal or inherent part of the IVF process, it's something separate.
5) extra embryos are stored to try again, discard, or donate to science. Yes they're stored. And you don't have to discard or donate. You can keep them forever and/or keep transferring all of them. You never NEED to destroy them, so again, that's a conscious choice people may make, not an inherent part of IVF. it's like saying getting pregnant is bad because sometimes people get abortions - obviously not, you just choose to not get an abortion.
6) the start of the process is bad because masturbation and porn are bad - again, not actually necessary. People choose whether or not to watch porn, it's unrelated. As for masturbation, I think within the context of a marriage it's fine. It's something being done together. Also, there are provisions for the wife to help collect the sample. you can do it at home, for example. So again, the parts that you say are sinful aren't actually inherent to the process, it's just an option. You don't have to do it that way. Also, most clinics allow religious couples to collect the sample together.
7) the hormones are bad for you and hard - no argument there. it was rough. But if your argument is that hormones are a sin, do you also oppose pregnant women taking vitamin supplements, or a women needing hormone supplements after getting pregnant in order to keep the baby? I doubt you would oppose that.
8) you mention how some places transfer up to 4 - maybe, but most places don't, or only in very rare circumstances. Most do one embryo at a time to maximize chances of healthy pregnancy with lower risk.
9) you call surrogacy "rent-a-womb", and say it's bad because you're taking the baby away from the birth mother after birth...but how is that different from adoption? if life begins at conception, adopting a 1 month old embryo vs a 1 year old baby isn't morally different.
10) some embryos don't survive the thaw - this is true, but very rare. Most do survive, around 95%. Here's the thing, through every step of a natural pregnancy, many embryos die. Half of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus and that embryo dies. The 50% who do stick, many of them (25-50%) end up failing to grow, dying, etc in the first couple weeks. Almost every woman who has kids has probably had multiple embryos die inside them. It's the sad reality of life.
11) clinics sell embryos which is bad and it's human trafficking. Adoption also costs money. Does that mean adopting kids is buying kids and human trafficking? nobody would make that argument because it's silly. Adopting an embryo isn't worse morally than adopting a baby - they're exactly the same.
12) ivf has gone too far and kids with disabilities get discarded, gay men have kids, etc - abortion is also used to kill disabled babies. But it's not an inherent part of IVF. We were given the option of getting the embryos tested for disabilities, we chose not to. Just like we never screened the baby in the womb for disabilities, because we wouldn't abort them either way. And gay men can also adopt, so it's no different there. Once again, IVF isn't inherently worse than normal adoption.
13) you claim that IVF is an idol for christians, or that they feel they have a right to have children. This is just silly and sort of an ad hominem attack. I don't feel that IVF is an idol for me. I don't worship it or pray to it lol. That's just a silly accusation. And as for having a right to have children, that's also sorta silly. I don't have a right to anything. I trust it with God and put it in his hands. And if you're going to say that the human intervention is bad, then you'd also have to oppose prenatal supplements, vitamins, etc. because that's also human intervention to stop a baby from naturally dying in the womb. Some women can get pregnant without IVF but have hormone imbalances and require help to keep the conceived baby alive. Is that also wrong? do you think we shouldn't take medical action to keep unborn babies healthy and alive and instead just let nature take its course?
in summary, there isn't anything actually inherently sinful or bad about IVF. Do some people who do IVF do sinful things like killing embryos? Sure. But some people who get pregnant naturally do sinful things like killing embryos, but that doesn't make getting pregnant naturally inherently bad because some people do bad things. If some people do bad things in the IVF process, that's on them, same as normal pregnancy, child adoption, etc. But the IVF process itself isn't actually bad and nothing you said actually made it bad, you just listed off bad things that some people choose to do during the process.
happy to discuss this further, I'm pretty familiar with the details of the IVF process.
Very well thought out, thank you! I agree with you
Too much logic for them to respond.
Especially point 13. Calling those who can't get pregnant who seek an alternative method created by man and gifted by God (Psalm 24:1) is ludicrous.
Never thought I see Apolgia bind the conscience of folks on something [not explicitly sinful] which can be done with one embryo despite the comment "that's rare" smh
@@andrewsuggs2381 honestly it's just a lot of ignorance on the part of these activists. Like you would think that if IVF is their focus, they'd be more informed on it. But several of their points are just outright false. And then it's combined with really shady logic of saying "well maybe you could do it without being bad but that's rare and if some people do IVF in a bad way that means the entire practice is bad".
Imagine if there's a God fearing Christian couple out there who is struggling to conceive and sees this video and it makes them not do IVF and denies them the absolute Godly gift of having a child.
Adoption ❤
Love You Marcus. YHWH Bless You n Your Family!
Thank God for embie donations. It was the only way we could add to our family ! Otherwise our son may never have been here at all! They built their family & they donated their additional embryo and now we have our complete family
LORE sounds a bit SUS tbh.....
So do regular guys. It's always the regular guys. Sincerely...co-founder of Loor.
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout
Uh oh...looks like I struck a nerve 🤣🤣
@@justaregularguy115 One good troll deserves another. ;-)
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout
The guy was like..."we shun repressive rules inhibiting creativity in our revolutionary LORE, media machine". Then when asked if a Mormon can submit content he's like...."well there ARE rules in the vetting process" 😂🤣. Even a "regular guy" can detect a snake oil salesman...(heck it was the woman who posed the question that deflated his whole BS💩 sales pitch).
@@justaregularguy115 Check out the difference between "repressive rules" and "Mormons." It's not repressive to keep false teachers out of the kitchen.
If I'm going to choose to watch something, its going to be something that will truly lead my focus my attention to Christ wether fictional or true story. If it's a Bible story, it better be Biblically accurate. No longer interested in watching anything that wouldn't put a smile on God's face or at least He would be ok with.
Loor just got on it and found very rude joking and snorting coke. I thought it would be a great idea I like bearly biblical, but breaking laws from the preview alone a joke about herpes is just ungodly and against the word hope it gets better. When we start doing stuff which is gross and ungodly it is no better than regular tv honestly if it does not promote piety it is worthless. To be honest some secular movies are more proper than it.
You do NOT buy embryos! 🤦🏻♀️. How about more regulation of the IVF ? How about do more research speak to families that have adopted embryos ! Also, adoption cost is ridiculous
Who pays for the cryogenic storage?
@@JonSpeedTheBookScout the family who did IVF. The clinic stated to me that there are times that the families may go MIA & just. Stop 🛑 paying then they decide next steps. They said that in their clinic, which is RMA of PA they have a donor list of families who are really desiring to have children & that donation is at times the only was to have a family. The wait for a donated embryo is about 18 months & you have to get counseling & have your body properly prepped for a successful implant and pregnancy. They also closely follow the expecting Mon through first trimester. Then regular OB
@@Shiboys keep in mind that most embryos do not survive thawing.
@@JonSpeedTheBookScoutyou've got it totally backwards. 95% survive thawing. the vast majority survive it just fine.
Mine only allowed one embryo at a time
I am praying for you guys to come out of Calvinism. Don't want to be disrespectful guys but this isnt even Christianity. Let the texts speak for themselves. Do t approach the texts with your Calvinistic presups. Start with Ephesians 1.
Ephesians 1 strongly supports the Calvinistic view
@cartermoorer2070: Who has God called? "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev. 22:17.
Now the call is to every man and woman and child on earth. Those that hear it are to take it up and pass it along. The kindness of God is wide enough to take in every individual; "for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
These two texts are sufficient to scatter to the four winds all the theological trash that has been written to prove that God has but a set few that He has called, and no others.
No soul should feel that he is not called, the call is to all, unfortunately, all do not come and make their calling and election sure.
How many, I wonder, do not come because they are made to feel that they are not included in the call?
One thing I do know, the day will come when we will find out.
When was Calvinism discussed in any way in this video?
Anything to day on the CONTENT of this video? Or just nonsense about "Calvinism"?
Notice the things which Paul preached in 1 Cor. 1:17, 18: "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
Christ sent Paul to preach the gospel, and he did it, not using the wisdom of man's words, in order that his preaching might not be disannulled. He says, "Lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
When Paul preached among the Corinthians, he preached nothing but Christ and Him crucified, and that was the gospel. That gospel,-the cross of Christ-is the power of God unto salvation unto every one that believeth.
Would anyone here seriously presume to hinder the preaching of the cross, because it has no part in a video of professed Christians?