I’ll be flying ATR72-600 from MAA to IXM in March. Done this route many times before but must admit I am a bit scared this time after the Brazil accident. Thanks so much for your reassurance and facts. As a physicist by training, these facts reassure me greatly! Happy holidays to all!🎄
I suppose the only real criticism is that once it stops flying and starts falling, it's very hard or impossible to start it flying again (as with the Brazil crash). But the pilots appear to have ignored a lot of warnings about the ice building up before that happened.
Not if you apply the correct stall recovery procedure as described in the FCOM. The main reason for loss of control in flight of both Voepass 2282 and American 4184 was inproper stall recovery technic and especially the fact that flaps 15 was not selected.
@@pakviroti3616 The thing is that as far as I know, no transport aircraft is rated for a flat spin recovery, and procedures in the FCOM for all those aircrafts are planned to keep you as far as possible from a flat spin situation. So if someone manage to get into a situation like that in these aircrafts (not only the ATR, but all transport aircraft), they were already way past the point of no-return
Stalling is not a problem. If there is sufficient altitude, the recovery can be made safely by a pilot following the manufactures recommended procedures. Spinning is a whole different matter outside of the aircraft certification. It can be extremely difficult or even impossible for a multi-engine aircraft to recover from a fully developed spin.
Thanks for the video! I will admit, the wings of the ATR and Dash 8 do look very small for the aircraft. Emphasis is on looks though. I bet the long, slender engine pods aid that optical illusion.
The ATR is a fantastic aircraft to fly. It is so much fun and teaches you some real skills. Fancy Airbus guys (which I used to be before my ATR adventure) of course don't get this :)
Im a self proclaimed Airbus Fanboy 😁, but love my ATR in MSFS. I spend a fair amount of time flying the ATR in sim, and enjoy the attention it requires
As an ATC, I need a separation of at least 7 minutes before letting any other aircraft depart after the ATR. Unless it’s an unpowered hang glider, then 5 minutes is enough.
Agreed. I have 2000+ hours on the ATR. It handles perfectly fine. I've experienced maximum demonstrated crosswind and pretty awful turbulance without problems.
Back in the 80's I flew on an ATR from Edinburgh to Gatwick after all jet plane flights had been cancelled due to storms (I had been meant to fly on a Boeing to Heathrow). The ATR managed it superbly never feeling unsafe in some fairly extreme conditions. A properly trained BA pilot probably helped.
Thank you, Magnar for the very informative comparison and explanation! The ATR-72 seems to be a fine airplane. Its limitations are real, but very well known. So why is it that so many pilots operate it not knowing these limitations, or not operating within them?
Why people comments are like all are specialists in aviation? ATR 72 is a good plane. We use it in Romania for years and no problems! Is perfect for short haul.
No it's that ice forms on wing aft of rubber de-ice boots. So activating boots breaks ice off but leaves ice ridge which blocks aileron airflow and reduces critical angle of attack.
The sad reality of the time we leave in is that the person's video is likely to be viewed and shared so much more than your video... And their video will therefore be viewed as fact by many, despite his disclaimer... We live in an age where experts are relegated by casual commentators who are at the high ignorance and high confidence point of the Dunning Kruger effect curve.
Hi Magnar, Thank you for another excellent video. I hope there will be more of the same type of videos in the future, such as comparing engine power. I've heard that the ATR is underpowered compared to other aircraft.
Well, done sir . If I could attribute any problems selectively to the ATR 72. This would be the wing is more susceptible to icing. The reason for this is simple. High aspect ratio wings by definition have more leading edge profile surface as compared to the total wing area. And it is the leading edge where most ice builds up. Additionally, a narrow cord necessitates an abbreviated low pressure profile on the upper surface. E.g.. It is not gradual. The lower pressure drops the temperature gradient more quickly moving the freezing point forward. To approximately 20% LEMAC. Obviously this is a well-known problem.
Statiscally ATR is one the least safe aircraft manufacturers of commercial passenger aircraft. Only Sukhoi is less safe. Does that mean it's an unsafe aircraft? No. There are plenty of high aspect ratio aircraft that are safe, look at Diamond DA40/50/62 with a wing that's very difficult to stall. I think that ATR has particular issues with icing and it's t-tail which seems to contribute to uncontrollable spins. What's historically was perhaps unhelpful re ATR is that the manufacturer and BEA weren't particularly honest about rhe issues the aircraft had. It's clear that whilst the ATR is mostly okay, there are a particular but rare subset of environmental conditions which can lead to an unrecoverable outcome.
Statistics can be deceiving. Until the accident in Paris in 2000, Concorde was the safest airliner in the world. A single accident made it the most unsafe airliner, if you compare it with the number of flights or hours flown. Most airline accidents do not happen because of the design of the aircraft, but because of inadequate training and discipline.
Most accidents happen during takeoffs and landings. The ATR flies short routes (= many takeoffs and landings), often to less-equipped airports with no ILS, often in parts of the world with tricky weather, sometimes in parts of the world where regulatory oversight over pilot training is not as strict. So the statistics might not be telling you the whole story.
@@FlywithMagnar Concorde had problems with its tyres from the beginning of its service life but its operators ignored the warning signs until it was too late. The uprated Concorde B was to have more efficient engines and a larger wing with leading edge slats allowing for slower landing speeds but the tyre problem was deemed unimportant.
@@FlywithMagnarthere was 14 concorde produced, there are 1300 atr72 produced. Atr72 is well into the range where the satistics are stable..really for aircraft is alreddy stable at about 100 units and about 20 years. So no, statistics is not missleading, concorde was a outlier due to the low number produced.
@@matsv201 The issue with statistics is that correlation do not necessary imply causation. In that case like @FlywithMagnar pointed out, many other factors such as crew training will impact accidents. The ATRs are often used by cash-strapped airlines, in environments where regulations are low to non-existent. So chances of accidents will go up in that environment.
The Fairchild Metro had a similar problem, the wings were too short. I am led to believe that speeds had to be higher that average to keep safe lift.I was told by a pilot that if you lost an engine on one of those, the outcome was normally very bleak. Observations from South Africa
Considering that CoP moves backwards when using high-lift devices (flaps), would it be fair to say that short-cord wings are also more stable as this CoP displacement is less pronounced? Valid only for situations of configuration change - transition from clean wing to flaps extended, of course.
All I have to say is are any of these people making comments, aeronautical engineers? If not then shut the hell up. That aircraft is a very good aircraft. Don’t let the looks fool you. It’s a very stable. It’s been in use for many years and just because of what accident you can’t say that there’s flaws with it because there’s not.
The algorithm brought me to you for the first time, and when the first thing I heard was an AI voice spouting nonsense, I almost closed the video! I think if you do something like this again, you should introduce yourself first, just so first time viewers won't mistake your channel for AI clickbait.
@@redtale6527 Sounds like freak accident. Truth is, those birds are some of the best turboprops ever made; japanese quality. known people who flew them, and they said it was their favorite plane. They also said they need to be flown like jets, not turboprops ....
@@alexanderordinary2110 Yep, we had an accident in the province I live (Quebec) where a popular media personality lost his life when the MU-2 he was a passenger on crashed in the Iles-de-la-Madelaines. And one thing that got out of the TSB report is how the PIC did not have the experience required to pilot the MU-2 correctly, trying to fly it like any other turboprop on approach. The MU-2 require a specific type rating for a reason
You can but sacrifices were made, the MU-2 had a slimmer tolerance for poor pilotage than comparable aircraft like the C441 Conquest. Because of the full length flaps, the tanks were moved to wingtips which led to an unrecoverable spin characteristic and also spoilers instead of ailerons were a bit different for transitioning pilots. A great plane but it demanded respect that many pilots over the year did not give it
Excellent description for the average person to grasp. Unfortunately the average person has been so poorly educated even this simple straight forward explanation will fall on deaf ears and they will rather believe sensationalized idiots elsewhere. But do continue to debunk these silly notions. Thank you.
It's almost as if some smart engineers designed the airplane with careful calculations and math and stuff! They figured out what size the wing should be before building it and flying it for almost 40 years!
What about wing thickness. Why ice buildup is so easy in this aircraft? What about FLAT SPIN? Why this aircraft is so sensitive at vertical windshear? If you play the game of the bad guys (HIDE) then we will see the same accidents and incidents
A thin wing can accumulate more ice than a thick wing. Very often, the stabilizer (which is thin) has more ice than the wing. An aircraft will only enter a spin if it is stalled first. Then, you must push full rudder. To enter a flat spin, you must enter a spin and add power (this is what happened in Brazil) or have a center of gravity too far aft. ATR aircraft are protected against that. Before the aircraft stalled, the crew received 5 warnings from the aircraft, including a loud stall warning, stick shaker, and stick pusher forcing the control column forward. Despite this, the nose of the aircraft did not move down, suggesting the pilot was opposing the stick pusher. It's like a car driver in a moment of confusion is hitting the accelerator instead of the brake pedal.
@ ATR has a lot of systems to fight ICE. More than others. WHY? How do you explain the fast ice buildup with a thick wing? This is the worst airplane on icing conditions I ever flew ( T-37, C-212, C-337, JS-41, C-560)
Wingload dont tell the full story. Specially for regonal airlines. The problem is how weight is messured. As a avrage.for passangers and bagage. There are two main issues with that. 1: the statistics underestimate the actual weight by a huge margine. This is less so of a problem with planes with higher range because a larger procentage of the weight is fuel, so if the passanger is 25-30% wrong only give a error of 2-5% of the total weight. For a plane with short range, this is very diffrent. Hence overloading is more so a problem. 2: there is one more issue with a short cord. The aircraft stall at a lowet angle of attack. This combine with a lowet power is a issue (atr72 have about half the power per weight a 737 does. At lower speed this is not really a issue due to the disc area. But when speeds are at flying speed, specially with out flaps depoyed, the aircraft can stall suddenly and violently with the engine having little chance of pulling the plane out of the stall.
This is the main reason why I refuse to fly in this substandard aircraft. As a GA pilot in the past I have seen issues where there have been GA aircraft with critical wing structures that have caused accidents in the past. These aircraft should NOT be flown in known icing conditions. Any ice buildup on these wings will disrupt the lift quicker than a regular wing. The issue is not with wing failure it is the loss of lift in critical parts of flight and especially an issue with inexperienced pilots.
Hello Magnar. I used to fly Saab2000 (Concordino), one of the most advanced turboprop aircraft, back in the 90s. Its wing area was not bigger than ATR's. We could climb to FL 310 in 10 minutes (before RVSM rules). But we had powerful Allison engines. The problem with the ATR is not only the wing design but also the underpowered engines.
Bloody design was stretched and shouldn't have been due to the type of airfoil used... It is as if they thought that the ere would be more children, but the fact is that there are more fat people and they are not leaving their luggage behind.
(intro comment ...if it is real at all) Looks like Aerospatiale and Aeritalia are a bunch of jokers sitting and scribbling rubbish airplanes LOL LOL LOL .... I mean seriously how can one comment like that LMFAO ... I just cannot help laughing.... oh yes this is of course MY OPINION !!!!
Seems one argument missing here is credibility. In the earlier versions, icing was a disproportionate problem compared to equivalent aircraft. Seemingly for convenience (not wanting to bother with redesigning their prototype wing profile), they went ahead and started production with a ill-designed wing. The result was an aircraft which would instantly enter an unrecoverable stall with no warning if there was a millimeter of rime ice on the unprotected areas of the wing when the flaps were deployed. It was later revealed that ATR had been withholding this information from pilots and buyers. This boosted sales figures, but meant operators were blindsided with an aircraft inherently unsafe to fly under all but the most tropical of climates. Subsequent investigations revealed that the manufacturer knew this full well, and the only reason the issue was ever addressed was the massive protests where ATR pilots went to airports while off duty and advised passengers to NOT fly on ATR under any circumstances.
With this highly questionable history, and the aircraft SEEMINGLY still being known among pilots as 'an aircraft looking for an excuse to crash', I personally would never feel safe flying on an ATR. I've even cancelled tickets after they tried to rebook me onto an ATR flying under adverse weather conditions. What other design defects are they still trying to hide?
American Eagle Flight 4184 did not stall, nor did the ATR 42s involved in icing incidents in the late 1980s. The primary issue in both cases was uncommanded aileron deflection at high angles of attack, caused by ice contamination on the wings. To address this, when ATR introduced the ATR 72, they added vortex generators on top of the wings, ahead of the ailerons. These vortex generators delayed uncommanded aileron deflection until the aircraft reached an angle of attack well beyond the stall point. ATR then recommended installing vortex generators on the ATR 42 as well. They also proposed informing flight crews about the purpose of the vortex generators by updating the aircraft manuals. However, the FAA disagreed, stating that such an update was unnecessary since the issue was deemed to remove the problem. After the vortex generators were installed, no further ice-related accidents occurred with the ATR 42. Then came the American Eagle 4184 accident. The flight crew followed a procedure that was not anticipated by the manufacturer: flying in holding in icing conditions with flaps set to 15 degrees. At a relatively high speed, ice formed a ridge behind the de-icing boots. When the crew later retracted the flaps during their descent, the aircraft's angle of attack increased, leading to uncommanded aileron deflection and a subsequent loss of control. In the aftermath of the accident, ATR responded by enlarging the de-icing boots, tightening operational procedures, and introducing the Aircraft Performance Monitoring (APM) system. Since these changes, all subsequent ice-related incidents have been attributed to flight crews not adhering to minimum operating speeds or ignoring warnings provided by the aircraft. For example, during an accident in Brazil in August, the APM system issued three warnings, followed by activation of the stick shaker, and then the stick pusher. Despite these warnings, the flight crew’s actions resulted in a stall and a subsequent spin. As for the question of whether the aircraft has any hidden design defects, after 25 years of flying the ATR, I can confidently say no. The only issue that has been noted in the past was the air conditioning system, which was known to be weak. However, this problem was addressed and resolved some years ago with the introduction of a new air conditioning system.
Just to add some over : operators in subarctic and Arctic climate had been operating the ATR for years when the 4184 crash happened (thinking about Finnair and Inter-Canadien there), without any crash caused by icing. That said afaik pilots in these climates are usually much more careful around icing condition, since they are very aware of the danger of icing
@@HeaanLasai You talk from a place of ignorance. The aircraft was EXTENSIVELY studied and there is no design flaw. Only pilots not respecting SOPs and ignoring warnings, just like the recent case in Brasil.
@@FlywithMagnar Yep... one of the other unfortunate outcomes of this crash, other than the obvious, was the introduction of the 1500h rule in the US, which resulted in a shortage of pilots and a higher incident rate while time-building in high risk operations, instead of being in the safe, multi crew environment from an early date.
The designer of this aircraft picked up a brick, and asked his builder if he had engines that would allow the brick to fly. Yes, said the builder but how would I attach the engines to the brick? The designer placed a ruler on top of the brick at 90 degrees and told the builder to get to work.
Wing loading has nothing to do with the load a wing can carry. this is A I gobbledegook. YT needs to add an icon or asterisk to A I generated content so we don't click. Sadly the creator of this did no research or pay royalties but their computer just made them money. Oh, wait, that's the American Way.
Fantastic explanations again, Magnar! Glimrende!! 🤘
I think the biggest issue with the Atr 72 is that the engines grossly underpowered as compared to the Dash 8 Q400
as comparably compared with the comparison
I’ll be flying ATR72-600 from MAA to IXM in March. Done this route many times before but must admit I am a bit scared this time after the Brazil accident. Thanks so much for your reassurance and facts. As a physicist by training, these facts reassure me greatly! Happy holidays to all!🎄
Don't worry this is A I gobbledegook.
I suppose the only real criticism is that once it stops flying and starts falling, it's very hard or impossible to start it flying again (as with the Brazil crash). But the pilots appear to have ignored a lot of warnings about the ice building up before that happened.
Not if you apply the correct stall recovery procedure as described in the FCOM. The main reason for loss of control in flight of both Voepass 2282 and American 4184 was inproper stall recovery technic and especially the fact that flaps 15 was not selected.
@@lindegaardhjorth It wasn't 'just' a stall. It was a flat spin, and those are nearly impossible to recover from in that aircraft.
@@pakviroti3616 The thing is that as far as I know, no transport aircraft is rated for a flat spin recovery, and procedures in the FCOM for all those aircrafts are planned to keep you as far as possible from a flat spin situation. So if someone manage to get into a situation like that in these aircrafts (not only the ATR, but all transport aircraft), they were already way past the point of no-return
Stalling is not a problem. If there is sufficient altitude, the recovery can be made safely by a pilot following the manufactures recommended procedures. Spinning is a whole different matter outside of the aircraft certification. It can be extremely difficult or even impossible for a multi-engine aircraft to recover from a fully developed spin.
Unless you’re up in the flight levels that’s true for any transport category airplane.
Great video Magnar, as always!
He s right that wing is too small it's very unstable just a little overweight can make your day really bad😕🫡
I love you how used different styles of text for the words being said by ATR's critics, like ransom letters from serial killers. Very funny detail!
Totally agree about the wings.
Thanks for the video! I will admit, the wings of the ATR and Dash 8 do look very small for the aircraft. Emphasis is on looks though. I bet the long, slender engine pods aid that optical illusion.
The ATR is a fantastic aircraft to fly. It is so much fun and teaches you some real skills. Fancy Airbus guys (which I used to be before my ATR adventure) of course don't get this :)
Im a self proclaimed Airbus Fanboy 😁, but love my ATR in MSFS. I spend a fair amount of time flying the ATR in sim, and enjoy the attention it requires
As an ATC, I need a separation of at least 7 minutes before letting any other aircraft depart after the ATR. Unless it’s an unpowered hang glider, then 5 minutes is enough.
Agreed. I have 2000+ hours on the ATR. It handles perfectly fine. I've experienced maximum demonstrated crosswind and pretty awful turbulance without problems.
Really glad to read this 😊
Back in the 80's I flew on an ATR from Edinburgh to Gatwick after all jet plane flights had been cancelled due to storms (I had been meant to fly on a Boeing to Heathrow). The ATR managed it superbly never feeling unsafe in some fairly extreme conditions. A properly trained BA pilot probably helped.
Thank you, Magnar for the very informative comparison and explanation!
The ATR-72 seems to be a fine airplane. Its limitations are real, but very well known.
So why is it that so many pilots operate it not knowing these limitations, or not operating within them?
0:24 What the hell is this guy talking about ? Its exactly the opposite ! High wing loading makes the aircraft more stable when facing gusts!!!!
Its AI-generated trash
A flying brick is also impervious to gusts.
Stalls and spins entering and recovering is the problem with high wind loading aircrafts.
Why people comments are like all are specialists in aviation? ATR 72 is a good plane. We use it in Romania for years and no problems! Is perfect for short haul.
A large wingspan slender wing might be more susceptible to icing.
No it's that ice forms on wing aft of rubber de-ice boots. So activating boots breaks ice off but leaves ice ridge which blocks aileron airflow and reduces critical angle of attack.
The sad reality of the time we leave in is that the person's video is likely to be viewed and shared so much more than your video... And their video will therefore be viewed as fact by many, despite his disclaimer... We live in an age where experts are relegated by casual commentators who are at the high ignorance and high confidence point of the Dunning Kruger effect curve.
Hi Magnar, Thank you for another excellent video. I hope there will be more of the same type of videos in the future, such as comparing engine power. I've heard that the ATR is underpowered compared to other aircraft.
Well, done sir . If I could attribute any problems selectively to the ATR 72. This would be the wing is more susceptible to icing. The reason for this is simple. High aspect ratio wings by definition have more leading edge profile surface as compared to the total wing area. And it is the leading edge where most ice builds up. Additionally, a narrow cord necessitates an abbreviated low pressure profile on the upper surface. E.g.. It is not gradual. The lower pressure drops the temperature gradient more quickly moving the freezing point forward. To approximately 20% LEMAC. Obviously this is a well-known problem.
Excellent video
Statiscally ATR is one the least safe aircraft manufacturers of commercial passenger aircraft. Only Sukhoi is less safe. Does that mean it's an unsafe aircraft? No. There are plenty of high aspect ratio aircraft that are safe, look at Diamond DA40/50/62 with a wing that's very difficult to stall. I think that ATR has particular issues with icing and it's t-tail which seems to contribute to uncontrollable spins. What's historically was perhaps unhelpful re ATR is that the manufacturer and BEA weren't particularly honest about rhe issues the aircraft had. It's clear that whilst the ATR is mostly okay, there are a particular but rare subset of environmental conditions which can lead to an unrecoverable outcome.
Statistics can be deceiving. Until the accident in Paris in 2000, Concorde was the safest airliner in the world. A single accident made it the most unsafe airliner, if you compare it with the number of flights or hours flown. Most airline accidents do not happen because of the design of the aircraft, but because of inadequate training and discipline.
Most accidents happen during takeoffs and landings. The ATR flies short routes (= many takeoffs and landings), often to less-equipped airports with no ILS, often in parts of the world with tricky weather, sometimes in parts of the world where regulatory oversight over pilot training is not as strict. So the statistics might not be telling you the whole story.
@@FlywithMagnar Concorde had problems with its tyres from the beginning of its service life but its operators ignored the warning signs until it was too late.
The uprated Concorde B was to have more efficient engines and a larger wing with leading edge slats allowing for slower landing speeds but the tyre problem was deemed unimportant.
@@FlywithMagnarthere was 14 concorde produced, there are 1300 atr72 produced.
Atr72 is well into the range where the satistics are stable..really for aircraft is alreddy stable at about 100 units and about 20 years.
So no, statistics is not missleading, concorde was a outlier due to the low number produced.
@@matsv201 The issue with statistics is that correlation do not necessary imply causation. In that case like @FlywithMagnar pointed out, many other factors such as crew training will impact accidents.
The ATRs are often used by cash-strapped airlines, in environments where regulations are low to non-existent. So chances of accidents will go up in that environment.
The Fairchild Metro had a similar problem, the wings were too short. I am led to believe that speeds had to be higher that average to keep safe lift.I was told by a pilot that if you lost an engine on one of those, the outcome was normally very bleak.
Observations from South Africa
The Metro was fine on one engine. Quite normal. Maybe he was talking about the early versions that had a slightly shorter wing.
Probably referring to landing configuration. If you lose an engine you need to clean it up ASAP as it sinks on one engine with flaps and gear out
4:08 it’s totally insane that a square meter can lift (with margins) nearly one ton. Unbelievable, you could fly a car with 2m2
Fokker 50 Wing loading: 297.4 kg/m2 (60.9 lb/sq ft)
Considering that CoP moves backwards when using high-lift devices (flaps), would it be fair to say that short-cord wings are also more stable as this CoP displacement is less pronounced? Valid only for situations of configuration change - transition from clean wing to flaps extended, of course.
Great explanation! What about the Shorts with that fat square shape fuselage and wings with a very short chord...
All I have to say is are any of these people making comments, aeronautical engineers? If not then shut the hell up. That aircraft is a very good aircraft. Don’t let the looks fool you. It’s a very stable. It’s been in use for many years and just because of what accident you can’t say that there’s flaws with it because there’s not.
Thank you very much for this explanation!🙂👍
Cebu Pacific has operated the ATR for years never had an accidents.
The algorithm brought me to you for the first time, and when the first thing I heard was an AI voice spouting nonsense, I almost closed the video! I think if you do something like this again, you should introduce yourself first, just so first time viewers won't mistake your channel for AI clickbait.
Thank you for your feedback. I’ll be sure to follow your advice the next time I use AI.
you can have both; as the MU-2 has shown. It is both fast and can take off from short runways. They can do this because they put huge flaps on it.
MU-2 has less wing loading than ATR 42, and with double slotted flaps all the way to the wingtip, it has good runway performance.
Two MU-2s went down in flat spins within the space of a couple of years in outback Western Australia. Both with icing problems.
@@redtale6527 Sounds like freak accident. Truth is, those birds are some of the best turboprops ever made; japanese quality. known people who flew them, and they said it was their favorite plane. They also said they need to be flown like jets, not turboprops ....
@@alexanderordinary2110 Yep, we had an accident in the province I live (Quebec) where a popular media personality lost his life when the MU-2 he was a passenger on crashed in the Iles-de-la-Madelaines. And one thing that got out of the TSB report is how the PIC did not have the experience required to pilot the MU-2 correctly, trying to fly it like any other turboprop on approach. The MU-2 require a specific type rating for a reason
You can but sacrifices were made, the MU-2 had a slimmer tolerance for poor pilotage than comparable aircraft like the C441 Conquest. Because of the full length flaps, the tanks were moved to wingtips which led to an unrecoverable spin characteristic and also spoilers instead of ailerons were a bit different for transitioning pilots. A great plane but it demanded respect that many pilots over the year did not give it
Armchair engineers! Lol
Excellent description for the average person to grasp. Unfortunately the average person has been so poorly educated even this simple straight forward explanation will fall on deaf ears and they will rather believe sensationalized idiots elsewhere. But do continue to debunk these silly notions. Thank you.
It's almost as if some smart engineers designed the airplane with careful calculations and math and stuff! They figured out what size the wing should be before building it and flying it for almost 40 years!
What about wing thickness. Why ice buildup is so easy in this aircraft? What about FLAT SPIN? Why this aircraft is so sensitive at vertical windshear? If you play the game of the bad guys (HIDE) then we will see the same accidents and incidents
A thin wing can accumulate more ice than a thick wing. Very often, the stabilizer (which is thin) has more ice than the wing.
An aircraft will only enter a spin if it is stalled first. Then, you must push full rudder. To enter a flat spin, you must enter a spin and add power (this is what happened in Brazil) or have a center of gravity too far aft.
ATR aircraft are protected against that. Before the aircraft stalled, the crew received 5 warnings from the aircraft, including a loud stall warning, stick shaker, and stick pusher forcing the control column forward. Despite this, the nose of the aircraft did not move down, suggesting the pilot was opposing the stick pusher. It's like a car driver in a moment of confusion is hitting the accelerator instead of the brake pedal.
@ ATR has a lot of systems to fight ICE. More than others. WHY? How do you explain the fast ice buildup with a thick wing? This is the worst airplane on icing conditions I ever flew ( T-37, C-212, C-337, JS-41, C-560)
It is more to do with the altitude these planes fly most often. They can't fly above the weather
Wingload dont tell the full story. Specially for regonal airlines.
The problem is how weight is messured. As a avrage.for passangers and bagage.
There are two main issues with that.
1: the statistics underestimate the actual weight by a huge margine. This is less so of a problem with planes with higher range because a larger procentage of the weight is fuel, so if the passanger is 25-30% wrong only give a error of 2-5% of the total weight.
For a plane with short range, this is very diffrent. Hence overloading is more so a problem.
2: there is one more issue with a short cord. The aircraft stall at a lowet angle of attack. This combine with a lowet power is a issue (atr72 have about half the power per weight a 737 does. At lower speed this is not really a issue due to the disc area. But when speeds are at flying speed, specially with out flaps depoyed, the aircraft can stall suddenly and violently with the engine having little chance of pulling the plane out of the stall.
This is the main reason why I refuse to fly in this substandard aircraft. As a GA pilot in the past I have seen issues where there have been GA aircraft with critical wing structures that have caused accidents in the past.
These aircraft should NOT be flown in known icing conditions. Any ice buildup on these wings will disrupt the lift quicker than a regular wing. The issue is not with wing failure it is the loss of lift in critical parts of flight and especially an issue with inexperienced pilots.
What do you think of rogue feathers (flaps) on aircraft of the future? Would this be something for the ATR?
Is this worth flying now in MSFS2020 after the recent update from Hans
Whenever i see ATR 72 wings, i am reminded of B-24 Liberators.
Are you sure you don't mean the Martin B-26 Marauder? It used to be called the Baltimore whore because it had no visible means of support. 😂
I didn't know AIs could have opinions...
When I saw the title of this video I was prepared to strongly disagree. I did not need to. 😄
Flown on the ATR 72 seven times. Never any issue. Flown on the 200, 500 and 600 versions
nice
Hello Magnar.
I used to fly Saab2000 (Concordino), one of the most advanced turboprop aircraft, back in the 90s. Its wing area was not bigger than ATR's. We could climb to FL 310 in 10 minutes (before RVSM rules).
But we had powerful Allison engines.
The problem with the ATR is not only the wing design but also the underpowered engines.
Bloody design was stretched and shouldn't have been due to the type of airfoil used... It is as if they thought that the ere would be more children, but the fact is that there are more fat people and they are not leaving their luggage behind.
What a load of bollocks.
What is a load of bollocks?
(intro comment ...if it is real at all) Looks like Aerospatiale and Aeritalia are a bunch of jokers sitting and scribbling rubbish airplanes LOL LOL LOL .... I mean seriously how can one comment like that LMFAO ... I just cannot help laughing.... oh yes this is of course MY OPINION !!!!
Sorry, you lost me after the HUGE IN YOUR FACE OBNOXIOUS DISTRACTING CLOSE CAPTIONING!!!!!!!!
Seems one argument missing here is credibility.
In the earlier versions, icing was a disproportionate problem compared to equivalent aircraft. Seemingly for convenience (not wanting to bother with redesigning their prototype wing profile), they went ahead and started production with a ill-designed wing. The result was an aircraft which would instantly enter an unrecoverable stall with no warning if there was a millimeter of rime ice on the unprotected areas of the wing when the flaps were deployed.
It was later revealed that ATR had been withholding this information from pilots and buyers. This boosted sales figures, but meant operators were blindsided with an aircraft inherently unsafe to fly under all but the most tropical of climates.
Subsequent investigations revealed that the manufacturer knew this full well, and the only reason the issue was ever addressed was the massive protests where ATR pilots went to airports while off duty and advised passengers to NOT fly on ATR under any circumstances.
With this highly questionable history, and the aircraft SEEMINGLY still being known among pilots as 'an aircraft looking for an excuse to crash', I personally would never feel safe flying on an ATR. I've even cancelled tickets after they tried to rebook me onto an ATR flying under adverse weather conditions.
What other design defects are they still trying to hide?
American Eagle Flight 4184 did not stall, nor did the ATR 42s involved in icing incidents in the late 1980s. The primary issue in both cases was uncommanded aileron deflection at high angles of attack, caused by ice contamination on the wings. To address this, when ATR introduced the ATR 72, they added vortex generators on top of the wings, ahead of the ailerons. These vortex generators delayed uncommanded aileron deflection until the aircraft reached an angle of attack well beyond the stall point. ATR then recommended installing vortex generators on the ATR 42 as well. They also proposed informing flight crews about the purpose of the vortex generators by updating the aircraft manuals. However, the FAA disagreed, stating that such an update was unnecessary since the issue was deemed to remove the problem. After the vortex generators were installed, no further ice-related accidents occurred with the ATR 42.
Then came the American Eagle 4184 accident. The flight crew followed a procedure that was not anticipated by the manufacturer: flying in holding in icing conditions with flaps set to 15 degrees. At a relatively high speed, ice formed a ridge behind the de-icing boots. When the crew later retracted the flaps during their descent, the aircraft's angle of attack increased, leading to uncommanded aileron deflection and a subsequent loss of control.
In the aftermath of the accident, ATR responded by enlarging the de-icing boots, tightening operational procedures, and introducing the Aircraft Performance Monitoring (APM) system. Since these changes, all subsequent ice-related incidents have been attributed to flight crews not adhering to minimum operating speeds or ignoring warnings provided by the aircraft. For example, during an accident in Brazil in August, the APM system issued three warnings, followed by activation of the stick shaker, and then the stick pusher. Despite these warnings, the flight crew’s actions resulted in a stall and a subsequent spin.
As for the question of whether the aircraft has any hidden design defects, after 25 years of flying the ATR, I can confidently say no. The only issue that has been noted in the past was the air conditioning system, which was known to be weak. However, this problem was addressed and resolved some years ago with the introduction of a new air conditioning system.
Just to add some over : operators in subarctic and Arctic climate had been operating the ATR for years when the 4184 crash happened (thinking about Finnair and Inter-Canadien there), without any crash caused by icing.
That said afaik pilots in these climates are usually much more careful around icing condition, since they are very aware of the danger of icing
@@HeaanLasai You talk from a place of ignorance. The aircraft was EXTENSIVELY studied and there is no design flaw. Only pilots not respecting SOPs and ignoring warnings, just like the recent case in Brasil.
@@FlywithMagnar Yep... one of the other unfortunate outcomes of this crash, other than the obvious, was the introduction of the 1500h rule in the US, which resulted in a shortage of pilots and a higher incident rate while time-building in high risk operations, instead of being in the safe, multi crew environment from an early date.
The designer of this aircraft picked up a brick, and asked his builder if he had engines that would allow the brick to fly. Yes, said the builder but how would I attach the engines to the brick? The designer placed a ruler on top of the brick at 90 degrees and told the builder to get to work.
yet they fly routinely all the time with no issues. maybe you're just a shitty pilot?
Q400's routinely fly all the time without issues. Maybe you're just a shitty troll?
Wing loading has nothing to do with the load a wing can carry. this is A I gobbledegook. YT needs to add an icon or asterisk to A I generated content so we don't click. Sadly the creator of this did no research or pay royalties but their computer just made them money. Oh, wait, that's the American Way.