I agree. Empire lacks of good troops and combat characters. I played 20 games with them and i felt the struggle compared to my opponents. Same when comparing the others army books. Many Empire players don't event play foot troops (except archers), that's sad.
Interesting points and a lot of valid complaints, but as a Skaven player listening to this feels a bit like being homeless, and hearing 3 guys complain that the roof leaks in their second homes.
@@TheDwellersBelow yea man like I said a lot of valid complaints, but there is a fair amount of things that you were writing off that I'd take in Skaven in a heartbeat 🥲
For the Empire, you really want an army that feels tactical and as a jack-of-all-trades. The core should consist mostly of infantry in the form of state troops that are supported by all these other troop types. Detachments feel super thematic, but completely useless in practice. Perhaps give ranged detachments a special rule that they can fire in two ranks if within 3" and that the supporting charge automatically counts as a flank charge? My suggestion to make State Troops better is to give us the option to buy Heavy Armor for our poor halberdiers, and give us Warband. It would help a lot. Also, I don't know if any of you played 9th Age, but in there your general could give out "orders" (i.e. buffs) to their version of the regimental unit, with in his commanding presence, that was very thematic. You could buy an upgrade for him that would allow him to put out two instead of one (only one order per unit). It included things like a fight-in-extra-rank, movement speed bonus, reroll leadership tests, or ignore long range penalties I would love to see something similar for the Empire in TOW. P.S. I haven't watched the entire video yet, but I've already subbed. Very interesting points, so far.
Elspeth Von Draken is said to be 3 generation old at the time of Tamurkhan, wouldn't take much of a retcon to extend that life span out a little more and just put her straight in.
Without typing out a full list, there's a version of Caw! Caw! where you take a couple of Captains on Griffons at 200pts each and a couple of cannons to give you a stand-off option...
Empire is really good at fleeing from stuff and rallying. There's rallying cry everywhere and you can put a captain on a baby griffon for an 18" bsb bubble
@TheDwellersBelow it really would! an army of flagellants, witch hunters and warrior priests with bonuses to movement and frenzy or something would go so hard. add a rule that changes depending on what you are fighting and some new units and it would be perfect. i have now inevitably made myself sad lmao.
@@jamiesanchez8063 would probably be pretty sound, the dragon bow is great. But you might struggle to keep enemies away from. It as it's more points dense without a way to get away from fast stuff
If you think Master Mages are bad are you playing on very small battlefields?!? I had no issues to run Lv2 mages, they can stay out of dispel range just fine most of the time and yyou don't need them for magic missiles every time either which make it often even easier to get them to stay out of dispel range of enemy wizrds or at least lv4 mages.
@@MrCABman1972 it's more that empire can take unlimited level 4s, have no signature spells (so are stuck with their roll), and lots of three good spells are hard for lvl2s to cast with reliability. 70pts to go from lvl2s to lvl 4 means you cast twice as many spells, far more often, on a better body.
@@TheDwellersBelow I know that but generally that has never really been much of any issue in almost all the games I have used them, The flexibility they give you being able to be in more places are invaluable and are NOT reflected in the points. As I also asked, what size and how much terrain are used on the the battlefield you play on, that will likely play a big part. We play on at least 6*4 sometiems even larger if we have more than 2000p and usually a bit more than minimum terrain of one per 12*12 space. We follow a different paradigm of generating terrain though... I have also played with Tomb King Royal host that only get Lv2 priests so you learn how to most effectively use them. You have to learn that positioning and measure distances and trying to judge where the opponent want to move their wizarfs is key. Not everything can be mathhammered and that is it, there are allot of other effects in play in practice. We also already restricted the game to 1 Lv4 per 2000p and one Lv3 per 1000p, so there is no option for more than one Lv4 in a 2000p game.
@MrCABman1972 be keen to see how your making that work. We are playing on 6x4 and usually on the Square Based table lay outs, so quite big chunks of terrain across the table. I think even with the new restrictions, one LVL 4, two LVL 3s is unlikely to tempt me to invest in LVL 2s, because the lack of a sound signature, even demonology your only casting about 60% of the time and unlike TK you don't have great buffs that can be cast at a distance and access reliably. 1/3 chance to get the spell you want is just too low even excluding dispels.
@@TheDwellersBelow I guess I don't always rely on a specifc spell but switch my tactics to fit the spells they do get. As I said... I have had enough success with one or two Lv2 wizards several times. One reason I have taken them is theme so I have had to actuallt try to get them to work and they have. I almost never used them specifically for magic missiles, even so called weak spells can be used to good effect if you change your tactics accordingly. If you only have two Lv2 spell caster in the army you really don't rely on the spells they get. You probably don't upgrade them with any items either, so they are cheap. They also can be in two places instead of one. The soft benefit of the strategic strength of having two rather than one is hard to mathhammer and I understand that, but it does work. You just have to put in the effort in trying to make it work. I even used Lv1 wizards and made them work.
@@TheDwellersBelow if they were cheap enough to actually layer buffs they could be somewhat effective. Or minimum sized units could be redirectors, but they are too expensive to really toss away on that.
I agree. Empire lacks of good troops and combat characters. I played 20 games with them and i felt the struggle compared to my opponents. Same when comparing the others army books. Many Empire players don't event play foot troops (except archers), that's sad.
Interesting points and a lot of valid complaints, but as a Skaven player listening to this feels a bit like being homeless, and hearing 3 guys complain that the roof leaks in their second homes.
😂😂
@@That_Rat_Bastrd hey hey hey, we can all be terrible. But yeah Slaven are in a rooough place right now.
@@TheDwellersBelow yea man like I said a lot of valid complaints, but there is a fair amount of things that you were writing off that I'd take in Skaven in a heartbeat 🥲
That legacy feeling 👀👀@@That_Rat_Bastrd
@@TheDwellersBelowI’m sure you meant Skaven are in a roof place right now 😉
For the Empire, you really want an army that feels tactical and as a jack-of-all-trades. The core should consist mostly of infantry in the form of state troops that are supported by all these other troop types. Detachments feel super thematic, but completely useless in practice. Perhaps give ranged detachments a special rule that they can fire in two ranks if within 3" and that the supporting charge automatically counts as a flank charge? My suggestion to make State Troops better is to give us the option to buy Heavy Armor for our poor halberdiers, and give us Warband. It would help a lot.
Also, I don't know if any of you played 9th Age, but in there your general could give out "orders" (i.e. buffs) to their version of the regimental unit, with in his commanding presence, that was very thematic. You could buy an upgrade for him that would allow him to put out two instead of one (only one order per unit). It included things like a fight-in-extra-rank, movement speed bonus, reroll leadership tests, or ignore long range penalties I would love to see something similar for the Empire in TOW.
P.S. I haven't watched the entire video yet, but I've already subbed. Very interesting points, so far.
Some good ideas there! Seem they are taking another direction though, pushing Knights and artillery
Elspeth Von Draken is said to be 3 generation old at the time of Tamurkhan, wouldn't take much of a retcon to extend that life span out a little more and just put her straight in.
This was more of an autopsy… ouch..
Hahaha it's a little bit like that 😅
Without typing out a full list, there's a version of Caw! Caw! where you take a couple of Captains on Griffons at 200pts each and a couple of cannons to give you a stand-off option...
Definitely worth a go!
I’m disappointed we didn’t get a State Troops army of infamy that could have fixed infantry.
Same, all I wanted was access to shieldwall or stubborn, other comparably priced core with the same stats get more rules
100%
I think infantry has issues across the board not just with empire, although the troops are outrageously priced. Easy points fix though
Could yet be in the city of Nuln - or even as special rules provided by the new characters
@@dannypaintsthat foot character is ripe for an infantry buffing rule. Also infantry are underpowered as a function of the meta
Empire is really good at fleeing from stuff and rallying. There's rallying cry everywhere and you can put a captain on a baby griffon for an 18" bsb bubble
@@emcdunna yeah that's a really good shout
Are you able to add your pods to Apple Podcasts ect please?
@@cameda09 will get on it.
1:28:30 this is my big wishlist item too. Give me the witch hunter army from Warmaster, GW!!
Sadly doesn't look like it will happen, but it would be so cool!
@TheDwellersBelow it really would! an army of flagellants, witch hunters and warrior priests with bonuses to movement and frenzy or something would go so hard. add a rule that changes depending on what you are fighting and some new units and it would be perfect.
i have now inevitably made myself sad lmao.
Totally agree, buy an empire captain OR 6-7 chaos warriors and you get the same result in combat - NOTHING!
It's a sorry state of affairs. Can't wait for the helm of competition to come out in the journal and save us
Hey coincidence I made almost the exact same list lmao😂
How would a BSB do in a unit of crossbowmen with a Dragon Bow?
@@jamiesanchez8063 would probably be pretty sound, the dragon bow is great. But you might struggle to keep enemies away from. It as it's more points dense without a way to get away from fast stuff
If you think Master Mages are bad are you playing on very small battlefields?!?
I had no issues to run Lv2 mages, they can stay out of dispel range just fine most of the time and yyou don't need them for magic missiles every time either which make it often even easier to get them to stay out of dispel range of enemy wizrds or at least lv4 mages.
@@MrCABman1972 it's more that empire can take unlimited level 4s, have no signature spells (so are stuck with their roll), and lots of three good spells are hard for lvl2s to cast with reliability. 70pts to go from lvl2s to lvl 4 means you cast twice as many spells, far more often, on a better body.
@@TheDwellersBelow I know that but generally that has never really been much of any issue in almost all the games I have used them, The flexibility they give you being able to be in more places are invaluable and are NOT reflected in the points. As I also asked, what size and how much terrain are used on the the battlefield you play on, that will likely play a big part. We play on at least 6*4 sometiems even larger if we have more than 2000p and usually a bit more than minimum terrain of one per 12*12 space. We follow a different paradigm of generating terrain though...
I have also played with Tomb King Royal host that only get Lv2 priests so you learn how to most effectively use them. You have to learn that positioning and measure distances and trying to judge where the opponent want to move their wizarfs is key.
Not everything can be mathhammered and that is it, there are allot of other effects in play in practice.
We also already restricted the game to 1 Lv4 per 2000p and one Lv3 per 1000p, so there is no option for more than one Lv4 in a 2000p game.
@MrCABman1972 be keen to see how your making that work. We are playing on 6x4 and usually on the Square Based table lay outs, so quite big chunks of terrain across the table. I think even with the new restrictions, one LVL 4, two LVL 3s is unlikely to tempt me to invest in LVL 2s, because the lack of a sound signature, even demonology your only casting about 60% of the time and unlike TK you don't have great buffs that can be cast at a distance and access reliably. 1/3 chance to get the spell you want is just too low even excluding dispels.
@@TheDwellersBelow I guess I don't always rely on a specifc spell but switch my tactics to fit the spells they do get. As I said... I have had enough success with one or two Lv2 wizards several times. One reason I have taken them is theme so I have had to actuallt try to get them to work and they have. I almost never used them specifically for magic missiles, even so called weak spells can be used to good effect if you change your tactics accordingly.
If you only have two Lv2 spell caster in the army you really don't rely on the spells they get. You probably don't upgrade them with any items either, so they are cheap. They also can be in two places instead of one.
The soft benefit of the strategic strength of having two rather than one is hard to mathhammer and I understand that, but it does work. You just have to put in the effort in trying to make it work.
I even used Lv1 wizards and made them work.
CANCON 25 WOOOOO
Empire just pays too much for most of their units. I could accept the terrible state troops if they were pointed right.
Even if they were cheaper they still don't really do anything though...
@@TheDwellersBelow if they were cheap enough to actually layer buffs they could be somewhat effective. Or minimum sized units could be redirectors, but they are too expensive to really toss away on that.