Get-There-Itis strikes again. Pilot should have sit this one out. It’s ALWAYS better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.
@@bw162 Back in 1984 when I was training to be a pilot, I attended an FAA seminar regarding flight safety. They showed a number of aircraft wrecks due to weather. In every single slide, all of the occupants had perished. At the end of the slide show the FAA instructor asked us what the common theme was in the pictures....Ummm, everyone is dead? Yes he said, BUT, all of these pictures were taken the next day, and every one of them had bright blue sky. I never forgot that moment. 9000 hours later I'm still here. ;)
I couldn't agree more. I remember well my own close call flying in marginal weather flying from Albany to plattsburgh New York. That was thirty years ago and I think about it still.
I’m a licensed pilot and have been flying for over 50 years. The one axiom that’s saved my butt more than once; there are old pilots, there are bold pilots. There are NO OLD, BOLD PILOTS!! Period. Full stop. End of discussion.
I was on a Southwest Airlines flight that was delayed for weather 10 years ago and the captain told us “it’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing that you were on the ground”. Wisest advice ever.
There is no 'mystery' here. The helicopter pilot got himself into the soup on a day when nearly every other helicopter service was grounded due to low cloud ceiling (even the police).
Junder R unfortunately it is true. The Mcas logging info shows a classic case of loosing visual reference and descending uncontrollably at 5000 feet per minute vertical speed.
"On the grounding of the LA Sheriff's helicopters that morning it is an apples to oranges comparison. Different helicopter, different operations. We have to look at this specific crash and this specific helicopter, we can't compare that to others." Jennifer Homendy, NTSB ua-cam.com/video/Iv_i7VIS7UU/v-deo.html
@Junder R yep. It's easy to armchair quarterback when the game is over and all the basic facts are in. It's way different when you are in the middle of matters, and trying to solve a problem real time. As for various bias's in action...check out Nickolas Means clip on three mile island. It caused me to be more aware of bias in thinking. ua-cam.com/video/hMk6rF4Tzsg/v-deo.html
You are very good at explaining all of this in laymen terms. I have learned so much just by watching two of your 10 minute videos. RIP to all of those who perished onboard the flight yesterday.
Did you know that Eric Clapton actually gave up his seat on that helicopter because Stevie wanted to get to Chicago (?) to see his girlfriend? He died with three members of Clapton’s entourage.
Juan, another excellent, "down-to-earth" explanation. You are, by far, the best aviation reporter, anywhere, today. All the news outlets need you. And you do not "grind axes". Very professional.
@Wes Porter Hmmm...Should I believe Juan's "theory" about what may have happened (which seems to happen quite frequently), or your guess at there "clearly"(?) being a mechanical failure or passed out pilot? I'll stick with Juan on this one. Chances are he'll be right on the money.
@Wes Porter what if that sudden spike was the actual moment of impact and the ADSB data being sent out was skewed. When electronic sensors fail they can fail in a high or low state.. This cannot possibly be determined without more data from either eyewitnesses(which normally can't be trusted) or instruments from the wreckage. Jaun great job!
I’ll give a slight correction on the assumption about the ceiling, and rising terrain in that area. I live in Santa Barbara and am a former Army aviator and flew commercially when I got out 30 years ago. The fog that morning, all up and down the coast, was unusually scuddy. There was not the typical marine layer with an 800’ ceiling and a few hundred feet thick. There was junk hanging in the air, creepy up inclines, hanging in ravines, etc. there are was no real ceiling, it was just a nasty mess. Plus the fog was very dense. The little hanging clouds, sometimes touching the ground, were very thick. Plus he was going WAY too fast for the conditions. Personally I would not have flown that day. They should have taken a limo.
Yes I agree, that day was very odd it was very think clouds. And Yes i never understood that part, why were they going 160 knots.. roughly 180mph in very dense thick fog? it doesnt make sense.
@sbdreamin Totally agree. Very weird! I live in San Diego, and I flew into town Jan. 21 after being gone for Christmas. I noticed how thick the fog has been on multiple days this past week. First, I noticed the density from my SWA plane as we approached SD. I did a double take to look at it. Then I noticed it while sitting outside the airport for my ride; I truly expected my friend to tell me to take an Uber because she doesn't like driving in bad weather. It was kind of a blinding fog or something. Very suffocating feeling with no breaks in in it.
I’m with you 100%!! I know hindsight is 20/20 but as the pilot responsible for the safety of all onboard, I would have advised against flying into those conditions and against continuing if the conditions changed en route!!
Back in the day, I flew helicopters in the military. We had a phenomenon known as a "brown out". In the dusty conditions of combat one could go IFR due to all of the dust flying up when coming to a hover after an approach. We were trained to deal with this situation by looking out of the lower chin bubble rather than attempting to go on instruments at such a critical point. We also had what was known as a "stop turn". The aircraft would be rolled sharply, almost 90 degrees, combined with a peddle turn in the same direction so the the aircraft was perpendicular to the direction of flight. Thus the rotor would be facing aft of the direction of travel. At this point power to the rotor would be applied, such that the aircraft would slow down in a very short distance. This was a VFR procedure, and was very effective in a hostile environment where a 180 turn was required or where one needed to keep their speed up until the last moment to avoid incoming. I am not sure if civilian Pilots were taught this technique? In the 70's scenic tours of the Grand Canyon were allowed to legally operate below the outer rim. There were days when the cloud cover was right down to the ridge line of the Canyon, however, below the rim it was still VFR. We would fly up the Canyon to the Grand Canyon Airport which was located a little over a mile south. There were days when the cloud bases were at 200 feet at the airport and visibility up to 5 miles. We would fly to a known point north of the airport while still in the Canyon and request a "special VFR" approach from the tower. We could see the runway from the South Rim and proceeded in without difficulty. This was standard SOP for almost all of the tour operators. The Banning Pass just west of Palm Springs is notorious for inadvertent flight into IMC with CFIT. East of the pass the air is often dry and clear which is conducive to VFR flight, however, west of the pass the humid moist air off the ocean will cause a low dense cloud cover with restrictive visibility. The pass is narrow and is framed by Mt San Jacinto (10834') and Mt San Gorgornio (11499'). Once in the pass there is not sufficient room to do a 180 degree turn back. There is an airport at Banning and some aircraft have been lucky enough to spot the airport, with a straight in landing.
We call it a "sideways quick stop" Had to demonstrate an ability to accomplish this from my PPL on a R22, right thru to CPL conversions on everything else, in order to get signed off on type. This was in South Africa.
Shenandoah Hills That actually happened to me once. Flew to Palm Springs and coming back in afternoon it was so hazy that when I called for vector to El Monte they redirected me to fly out over the ocean and come back in underneath to Long Beach because it went IFR on me.
gmcjetpilot I’ve been there too, trying to get into Aspen in a blizzard in a corporate jet. The pressure to complete the flight can be enormous. It is very hard to say no.
Very possible. I was telling a friend earlier that when I flew for a small company wx. was never a factor for my boss. If I didn't fly it he'd find someone that would and thete was a line of guys behind me chomping at the bit. Being young dumb and being invincible I flew. I flew a lot of the coast of TX, LA, MS, AL and FLA. Nice and flat, as long as I knew where towers were scud running wasn't as big a risk. I wouldn't do it now though.
Hey great interview you just gave a few minutes ago on newstalk1010 / Toronto - I listened in the car on my way home from work! Good to know people are coming to you for this.
Yes! Exactly! Telling Kobe that we can’t fly. I wonder if the pilot had any reservations at all or did he lift off full of confidence. Do you go with just a little reservation? Say 10 %?
That negligence is entirely on Kobe. That alone, is what I am surmising. I'm certain he will be a restless soul for evermore, knowing if not for his influence this may not have ever happened. Feel free to disagree. I don't really want to care, but I do.
@ChiliContestWinner I don't agree. Kobe writes the checks and what he says most likely goes. Likely Kobe thought the copter flight was just more basketball. Yes, the pilot should have walked, but his livelihood was on the line because of Kobe.
@ChiliContestWinner Like you said, the pilot is the expert on safe weather conditions but who is expert on unsafe weather with family and lives on board. Nobody is expert in that field but somebody like Kobe could have thought otherwise without any issue other than being late. Final say was mother nature's because special VFR clearance allows certain pilots to warrant it.That rule in itself is a form of negligence when weather is unsafe for flying., but that's another matter altogether. This was Kobe's damn craft. No, I believe he could have canceled, it's HIS say and if he should ever be given the chance to relive it all again what do ya think he woulda done different. Don't even try to tell me he wouldn't want to have second chance to change the outcome by simply waving the flight off and just contend with L.A. traffic and be a bit late. The pilot just made the final decision. Negligence on behalf of Kobe in my opinion 😤
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they all knew the risks - who would get into a helicopter with zero visibility ?
@@HiroForever Knowing victims likely saw the end coming is a great comfort for those mourning. You never want to think your loved ones were in distress.
I wrote this yesterday, and want to repeat what I wrote at that time-I have found your video commentary extremely informative, despite the fact that I have little expertise or knowledge in helicopter aviation. These down to earth explanation videos are worth their weight in gold! Your concise. comprehensive explanation has enlightened me more than any other videos I've seen, and you have helped me to truly understand the facts as they are now known. I've now subscribed to your channel, and I very much look forward to watching and hearing more from you in the day/weeks and months ahead. Thank you again for the public service you are providing. Thank you.
Would you be able to attend one of those NTSB press conferences? We would all enjoy legitimate technical questions instead of the endless airhead media questions.
OK if you're operating above FAA minimums, are alert & sober, have a properly operating a/c, and a trained co-pilot who is also fully in the moment. Know when to fly to your alternate and do so when you reach minimums on the approach!
The eyewitness account linked is very good. The guy says in his many many years living in the area he had never seen the marine layer and weather so bad.
Juan, helicopter operators often fly VFR or Special VFR for reasons other than expediency. Minimum altitude restrictions for IFR flight following are an issue not just because of a desire to stay visual. The typical cruising altitudes for helicopter flights is often much lower for various reasons. The MSA for this route of flight rises when approaching the mountainous terrain near where the helicopter crashed. I don’t have a chart handy, but the minimum of 1,000 feet above the highest terrain in the sector would require a cruising altitude well above the 1000- 1,200 feet this flight was operating at. You are correct that there are minimum forward speeds required to operate a helicopter in instrument flight conditions, making hovering not an option. I haven’t flown helicopters in nearly twenty years, so you should consult with a pilot with more recent experience to confirm and or update my information.
@@rogerroger6049 If I get it, to hover you need a visual reference point, instruments can't tell you if you're sliding to the side or moving backward or forward very slowly, making hovering way more dangerous than to keep on flying
Best explanation I have heard since the accident. My heart really goes out to the families as they await word that the remains of their love ones have been found. It's got to be nerve wracking.
I am IFR multi fixed wing, commercial helicopter with lots of vfr time in 500's. Spot on Juan, flight into canyon rising terrain, low ceiling. Pilot's biggest mistake was not to slow down. When you fly a helicopter fast like an airplane you eliminate your best escape route to safety, which is to land at the best area you see between your feet. Pick you LZ can be a gas station, car lot, median, doesn't matter. Cell towers, wires are your main concerns. People are usually understanding, curious and helpful. When you get low and slow enough that the traffic bellow is passing you between you feet is usually time to give up and land. Take a break, or get a ride, conditions change quickly. Making a transition to ifr flight in the muck, is extremely demanding and any distractions, frequency changes and the like will compound a bad situation in seconds. Thanks Juan, I always seek your perspective and enjoy your excursions
You always have to leave yourself a way out, man my heart just melted when you said that, so true. If things go sideways what am I going to do. And all the young ones involved, can’t stop thinking about it.😔
@Rusty Climber The limits have nothing to do with the speed of the helicopter. The limits being referred to here are the limits of safety relating to visibility and height above ground.
Thank you for honoring the “nine souls” aboard the aircraft. I understand the newsworthiness of Kobe’s demise, but each person was precious to those who were close to them.
Your time off has been a benefit to your subscribers. When you return to work our reports will not be as instantaneous as they are now. Hopefully the accidents will just stop.
re: "Hopefully the accidents will just stop." no worries, once word is out JB's back in the right seat thumbing the mic. when they hear his voice, everyone will be on notice to STRAIGHTEN UP AND FLY RIGHT.
No wonder Juan Brown urged us to watch the entire interview. The witness was obviously very experienced. Plus he wore a storied cap. "The Pilots Airline"
Skud running in marginal conditions..... inadvertent flight into IMC, loss of control due to loss of situational awareness and spacial disorientation............. very sad..... Landing at Van Nuys and taking a limo would have been the right thing to do...... Get-there-itus clouds good judgment and is a killer
@@bombsaway6340 Yep, I looked at everything Juan saw and drew the same conclusion.... He tried to escape with a 180 degree turn and climb, but lost control and impacted the terrain... ADSB data proves the loss of control portion... steep descent after the climb with erratic descending vertical speed before data ended 800 ft lower than where he was straight and level........ Sad, because the occupants had to have known something was wrong the few seconds before the impact.... not just a straight and level crash and were unaware of it.......sad
I believe he could have been trying to locate the helipad at the sheriffs dept at 27050 Agoura Rd, Calabasas, CA 91301 if he was in a IIMC emergency. Looks like he was about .8 miles due east of the helipad. Red dot on this map is the helipad at the Sheriffs Dept. i.imgur.com/GenilK9.jpg
I believe KeithKman is correct in his guess as the copter had already cleared the highest point on the 101 which is between Calabasas Parkway and Las Virgenes Rd. He probably came down the freeway at that point and mistook the Las Virgenes bridge for the Lost Hills bridge and was trying to circle back to where he thought the Sheriff's helipad was.
Based on the information on hand and I did watch the final flight recording of the pilot, it seems to me that the pilot had no idea that the terrain was creeping up on him and what I think happened was he got cleared of the fog just a little and saw he was going to clip the mountain so that explains the sudden increase in elevation but it was likely too late, he hit the mountain and then spun out of control and crashed. Or as you said, he attempted to correct his elevation, got disoriented and lost control of the helicopter. It seemed to happen very quickly and very suddenly judging by the flight data from air traffic, because it was only a few minutes after the pilot stopped responding and fell of radar that the chopper went down. So really this flight seemed doomed from the start, it had all the elements of things that could go wrong, and they did.
Great information, as usual Juan. Thank you for the update. BTW - I forwarded your channel, this report, to the local most popular radio show - “The John and Ken Show” on KFI 640 Los Angeles. They were questioning whether pilots at this level are “motivated” to get their VIP to their destination no matter what. I hope you don’t mind any added exposure. Regardless, this is a tragic loss of life.
Absolutely. Years ago I flew with a small operation. WX. was never a factor to him. If I didn't fly it he had pilots that would. I was young, stupid and bullet proof so I always flew. I look back now and think what a dumbass I was, I can see 100 feet good enough.
@@easygoing2479, don't wonder any longer, I'm sure the pilot didn't have time to wonder; and, as a matter of fact & sadly, he probably never saw it coming! I'm sure he was extremely worried, but never imagined the outcome! By the time he got disoriented, it was probably over! RIP 😥
In addition to speaking with my Vietnam veteran Helicopter pilot father, who was in the 1st Air Cav. Your channel is the first I thought of after hearing about this crash.
Thank you for the update Juan... and Thank You for confirming my suspicions regarding that video clip of a helo crash. I was 99% sure that was not related to this incident. So sad for so many families. Aviation accidents are so terribly unforgiving.
The eyewitness account referenced is indeed very detailed and one of the best if not the best eyewitness account I've ever heard. The guy knew his stuff and hopefully it helps with the investigation.
The emotion he displayed at the end was heart wrenching, nine precious souls lost forever. We all are reminded how brief life is, we all have the resposibility to fly above thr "fog" and see each other the way we should. At the end of the day Love will always be the measurement of a well lived life.
Ken Clark I thought S-76B is IFR rated with one pilot in the US. Almost every other country that operates it says two pilots for IFR rating. Am I wrong?
Exactly! I'm a pilot and I know about that feeling of pressure to go, when that small voice in the back of my head recommends against it. This is tragic and I, along with countless millions, am having a difficult time processing the loss. I'm not even a basketball fan. In cases like these, you don't have to be, in order to be a Kobe fan and feel the loss. You'd have to have been in a coma for the last 20 years not to know who Kobe was. The loss of life, particularly those young lives aboard, is even more emotionally difficult to deal with. As a Christian, my prayer is that our Lord God give his wife, his surviving children, and the families of all the other victims a peace beyond human comprehension.
I know shit can happen anywhere but, they were only going from OC to TO..he totally could have just taken them in a Sprinter van....they may have all made it...but it is what it is......I just feel bad for the other victims families as they won't have the resources that he did to carry on....but then again they all made the choice to get on the chopper themselves.......except the kids probably.....
Reminds me of a report that I read years ago about a small business jet crash in Aspen or some such mountain airport. Flying at night in marginal weather into an airport in a valley with terrain on both sides, apparently the high profile client was known to exert pressure on people to get things done. What should have been a missed approach instead resulted in the pilot continuing the approach, but he was significantly off-center to the runway center--line and crashed into terrain. The scent of get-there-itis was all over that one, as no other definite cause was found (eg. mechanical. toxicology), and there was an alternate airport that they could have gone to.
choprox01 true but Kobe and his family routinely flew for over a decade. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t even the first time flying in foggy conditions. I mean Kobe nor the pilot knowing decided to fly
ADS-B data is spot on unless the barometer/GPS were malfunctioning in the A/C. ADS-B data is sent in packets with checksums. Data corruption, especially multi packet corruption, is very unlikely. The ADS-B data rate is pretty high. ADS-B transceivers usually have their own dedicated GPS/barometer. If the ATC flight path said it climbed and descended, it most likely did.
So just how good and checksummed is the analog data that is put into those packets at the sending end? I just assumed that Juan was leaving room for instrument error, since that is generally where the errors occur these days.
@@SusanKay- GPS works fine standing still, hovering or going 200 MPH. I think the refresh rate is 30Hz. Hikers use GPS all the time and some of them are pretty slow. ;) Does the GPS in your car work when parked ? I thought so.
@@lwilton Instrument error and data communication error are two different things. That helicopter probably had redundant GPSs and/or bariometers feeding the ADS-B. The failure of those components would lead to instrument error. Communication error is when the transmission is incorrect or gets garbled. Checksums do nothing for instrument error. If the instruments feed bad data into the ADS-B box, it will transmit it. Checksums prevent the mis interpretation of bad data at the receiver. The ATCer would have lost data if there was a checksum error. That didn't happen. There was ADS-B data right until the end.
The "Special VFR" operation was originally designed for aircraft operating into or out of the primary airport or through "Control Zones" which, by definition, had operating Control Towers. There is no existing "Class" of airspace that is identical to the Control Zone. This procedure was changed in the 1990's to accommodate changes in airspace classification and I think reduced helicopter minima were added to the procedures during that time. Once N72EX aircraft was outside of class C and D airspace (Burbank and Van Nuys respectively), the aircraft was operating in Class G airspace as long as he was at or below 1200 ft. AGL. This permitted N72EX to legally operate under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) "clear of clouds" (Far 91.155(b)(1)). Note that no Special VFR clearance was in effect at the time and place of the accident. The clearance Van Nuys issued was terminated when N72EX reported in VFR conditions once he had passed Van Nuys and the pilot switched his transponder to 1200. The question I have is: why did N72EX make a rapid climb of at least 1400fpm immediately prior to the loss of radar contact and, presumably, its rapid descent into terrain?
Dogbreath Excellent comment and question. I’m wondering if, as they are traveling at 155kts, did a hillside loom into view and the pilot quickly reacted to avoid terrain.
1/30/2020 The pilot was in contact with ATC getting flight following. That also means that ATC had radar contact with the aircraft. The pilot had only to ask for an IFR clearance, ATC would have immediately issued a clearance similar to “climb and maintain 5,000, fly heading 180.”
It’s the speed in which the pilot seemingly entered those conditions that keeps me wondering what was going on between the headset. Every flight is a unique experience no matter how many times you have flown the same route. Perhaps that concept was left in sunny Orange County that fateful morning on what might have been the 100th similar flight. Why not slow way down and make sure proceeding further is the wise and safe course of action before every option and margin of safety is used up? We may never know. So sad. Thanks for the excellent analysis Juan.
I was referring to his reported spies while following highway 101 not his final maneuvering speed while in the clouds. Reports said he was doing over 180mph. If this is incorrect please comment.
Me and the wife got to take a flight around Las Vegas a few months back it was one of the best experiences of my life. Don’t cheat yourself !!! Fearful is no way to live
ChiliContestWinner My wife went on a helicopter ride in Hawaii , I stayed behind, because I refuse to fly in a helicopter ,2 weeks later a helicopter crashed killing everyone on board from that same company she rode on, I told her see, that’s why I won’t get on one, this just recently happened, it was all over the news! These things crash all the time and it seems like it’s all ways about the fog!
@@bonsai108 re: "maybe onshore flow and no fog there." unfortunately accepted "terrestrial norms"/judgements don't apply. for the Pilot there's no such thing as "free lunch". what i mean by that is, along with the privilege of being issued a License by the FAA comes the burden/responsibility of CHECKING WEATHER before every flight. this must be done not only at the originating FBO, but also along your route, and at your destination. this goes "hand in glove" with filing a flight plan (ie: Navigation). by definition weather is changeable, but with the sophistication/availability of modern data, there's NO EXCUSE for not "pulling weather". one must attempt to KNOW BEFORE THEY GO.
I don't think there is that much question about what happened given it was a special VFR flight. As they flew into higher terrain, the ceiling became a real problem. You are exactly right. That is pilot error. I assume terrain awareness warnings were turned off since they were already so low they would have constant warnings.
billyrayband can I just ask? If your life was in danger would you not even if it was not authorized rise above the clouds and ascend to save your own life to the point where the terrain was no longer a threat? Also can you elaborate on what he means when he says the pilot may have ascended and got disoriented and lost control?
@@kdubb718 When "disoriented" is used in this context it means that when you fly in clouds you lose all reference to earth. You literally lose all sense of up and down straight or turn, acceleration, deceleration. The movement of the aircraft is doing this. Your inner ear plays tricks on you and you may think you are turning when you are actually going straight for example. At this point you must fly only by reference to instruments to keep the ship in control and upright. But without a clearance and without terrain separation he could not fly with reference to instruments without being able to miss mountains. He was stuck partially in the clouds, partially out, with a vague sense of where the hills are and having occasional glimpses of the ground. He can be a completely capable IFR pilot, but the transition from VFR to IFR is difficult unless in ideal conditions with assured clearance from (most importantly) obstacles, and other aircraft. Disorientation leads to unstable flight and aircraft literally falling out of clouds at a high rate of speed---an all too common occurrence in aviation. This all explains the high speed and the high rate of descent at the end. They climbed up, got disoriented, and literally lawn darted into the mountain. Terrible tragedy.
@@unwelcomemotivation Hard to say for sure because of the fog so close to the ground. Maybe for just an instant. What a horrible tragedy. This just makes me sick
Thank you so much for your videos. I’m sure you’ve had this channel prior to Kobe, but that is what brought me here. I’ve learned so much from your videos and found your name by a subscriber, who reference you in another video. I’ve never been interested in doing helicopter tours or riding one for any reason. This crash has peaked my interest in learning more about helicopter’s and flight terminology. You are definitely one of the best out there, so I wanted to share my gratitude for what you do. Your videos are very informative, and you ask and answer great predicting questions. I’m so so so sorry that this has happened to those families. I have a little more understanding as to how this could’ve happened, and hope the final report can help prevent others from repeating.
I was just like everybody else when I heard about Kobe’s death I couldn’t believe it. Get-there-itis could have been a factor again. RIP. Thanks Juan, you explain these things better than the talking heads.
Thanks Mr Brown!! It’s always nice to be able too come to ur channel and find out what happened from a fellow pilot! U R fast to report & accurate! Anytime I hear of a significant crash, I come to u! Job well done!!!👍
I was driving (on the ground!) when a crazy heavy snowstorm hit and I couldn't even see the hood of my own car. I didn't dare stop in case a crazed semi was coming up from behind and I couldn't see enough to see if there was anywhere to pull off the road. I actually lost sense of what was left, right and even up or down, even though I was pretty sure the tires were pointing downward, it felt like I was floating in space. Finally got enough of a break in the snow to see a place to pull off. I'm sure the pucker factor would increase exponentially in the air under blind conditions like that.
@Mike Hayden I never said that; but it is critical to always keep in mind that you are making forward progress, and that you need to be thinking in the space well ahead of your craft. IFR conditions rarely hit you by surprise, rather, you are in a continuum where you see the need coming upon you, then hit your decision point and make either a good or bad decision. You should have been playing it safe, with heightened awareness of your instruments, so that if IFR became necessary, you would not have a few seconds of disorientation while you made the shift from watching terrain and landmarks to trusting your panel. I'm just second-guessing, but it looks like the request to go IFR should have been made much earlier as the craft was climbing to stay above terrain and found the ceiling limiting their climb. Many years ago, I often chartered flights that made an intermediate stop at NAS Point Mugu (a bowl that fills with thick fog). I would start from San Diego or Orange County, in bright sunlight, and arrive into Point Mugu to find it filled with clouds and fog. I'm not an IFR rated pilot, so even though I was paying the bills, I was just meat cargo. We would assume that Point Mugu would require an instrument approach and our flights were IFR all the way. OTOH, I would never pressure the pilot to carry more baggage/cargo or to fly anywhere/anytime he wasn't happy to go. We would usually have a single engine turboprop craft, with just one pilot, and he did all the work of flight and navigation (and I don't know what landing approach systems Point Mugu used in the early 80's, maybe just glide slope and locator). We would turn onto final at the eastern rim of the mountains, line up with runway 21, and slide down into the gloom. A real highlight of the approach was a radio tower, about 2 miles before the runway, which was about a half-mile to the southwest and which usually had its top in the clouds. After a couple of minutes of watching your strobe light illuminate the mists around you, you would drop out of the ceiling just about the time you passed this big red flashing tower. There were all sorts of nasty stuff out there in the clouds that you never knew were THAT close.
Not really @Joe V ; When your training for IFR, you use a HOOD which totally blinds you except for instrument view. That's the purpose. Remember, this guy Ara was flying in the soup with SVFR.
wow this is the best explanation I heard so far. We'll all just have to wait 1 year for the final report. RIP kobe, gigi, john, keri, alyssa, christina, payton, sara and ara
As a former Incident/accident investigator one of the issues i often noticed was not in the inexperienced operators but with those with an high number of hours. Most underestimated the dangers and when they fell behind they could never catch up.
@@aaronlopez3585 Thank you, for mentioning that. I hear that "he had xxxxxx hours". Pilots never get to a level of hours where they are safe from themselves. Complacency is a big problem with high time pilots. Skills are lost, ego, over confidence. Comparing relative flying hours is fairly meaningless.
Media Magik Entertainment YT channel has a very good video posted with audio from the pilot. In my humble opinion, it was NOT a good day to be flying a helicopter. So sad. Thank-you so much, Juan, for all of your reports. You are the BEST!
Joan Holliman Judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.May on the ground but above the ground you dont get a second chance.
Tragic, and sounds as though it was indeed CFIT by an extremely qualified pilot. Very sad for the families of the unsuspecting passengers who perished. RIP to all.
Unless the data is incorrect, I doubt it was CFIT. Descending at a rate of 4,000 ft per minute while moving at 160 knots is not a controlled flight. More likely he lost control due to spatial disorientation while traveling VFR at low speed in IFR conditions.
@@jaanfo3874 I've seen many people state a similar comment like yours. What does it mean to lose control in this regard? I know the definition of losing control. But what confuses me is that others have said the pilot tried to climb ( I assume that means flying higher). But did the plane turn into the mountain or fall straight down after attempting to "climb"? I hope my question makes sense.
@@GoogleAccount00 Basically, Spatial disorientation occurs when you lose track of which way is up and which way is down. Flying into a cloud, for instance, unless you're completely relying on instruments before you enter the cloud then it's easy to lose track of your orientation. Even if you're flying perfectly straight and right-side-up you can lose track of the ground, causing your brain to believe that the ground is no longer beneath you. As a result you panic and react instinctively to begin trying to correct your orientation, and if you were already oriented and failed to realize that then an unnecessary panic manuever can easily cause you to lose control. If you remain calm and check your instruments you can prevent this from happening, but usually when it happens it's just a panic instinct; You don't see the ground below you so it must no longer be below you, and your instinct takes over and you start trying to straighten out.
Thanks Juan. Good update. I have over 500 PASSENGER hours in the S-76 as a supervisor over Platform Irene flying out of Lompoc and later SMX. We always had 2 pilots both instrument rated in the twin engine bird due to the higher risk flight operations flying over water and making instrument approaches to the platform. An IFR approach required approximately 45 minutes of flight time vs say 15. This required more fuel whi
Amazingly informative, Juan. Damn you do a great job reporting this stuff! I hope that with the average persons' ability to record and share data (thanks smartphones! ;) ) investigating these types of accidents will get easier and more expedient over time. The more reliable witness info, the better.
Get-There-Itis strikes again.
Pilot should have sit this one out. It’s ALWAYS better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.
Clint Beachwood The NTSB always does their investigation in clear conditions...one day latter.
Shades of JFK Jr. :-(
Get-there-itis is genuine killer, no doubt!
@@bw162 Back in 1984 when I was training to be a pilot, I attended an FAA seminar regarding flight safety. They showed a number of aircraft wrecks due to weather. In every single slide, all of the occupants had perished. At the end of the slide show the FAA instructor asked us what the common theme was in the pictures....Ummm, everyone is dead? Yes he said, BUT, all of these pictures were taken the next day, and every one of them had bright blue sky. I never forgot that moment. 9000 hours later I'm still here. ;)
I couldn't agree more. I remember well my own close call flying in marginal weather flying from Albany to plattsburgh New York. That was thirty years ago and I think about it still.
I’m a licensed pilot and have been flying for over 50 years. The one axiom that’s saved my butt more than once; there are old pilots, there are bold pilots. There are NO OLD, BOLD PILOTS!! Period. Full stop. End of discussion.
What happen to Night ship 282 year 2002 in Alabama ?
I was on a Southwest Airlines flight that was delayed for weather 10 years ago and the captain told us “it’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing that you were on the ground”. Wisest advice ever.
You're doing a good job of presenting the "facts" as they're known. Keep it up. Rosewoodpilot retired FAA inspector)
Phil Vittetoe No, he keeps heaving for breath, it’s annoying listening.
@@anotherabeer4341 Focus, you fack
Rick Gac may be he should try to do the explaining see how well he does 😆
@@anotherabeer4341 you know jack about rotor wing flight.
heat bill He still breathes weird.
There is no 'mystery' here. The helicopter pilot got himself into the soup on a day when nearly every other helicopter service was grounded due to low cloud ceiling (even the police).
Junder R well said, thank you
Junder R unfortunately it is true. The Mcas logging info shows a classic case of loosing visual reference and descending uncontrollably at 5000 feet per minute vertical speed.
@@scubathehun
It wasn't 5000 feet youre exaggerating but I agree on your other information
"On the grounding of the LA Sheriff's helicopters that morning it is an apples to oranges comparison. Different helicopter, different operations. We have to look at this specific crash and this specific helicopter, we can't compare that to others." Jennifer Homendy, NTSB ua-cam.com/video/Iv_i7VIS7UU/v-deo.html
@Junder R yep. It's easy to armchair quarterback when the game is over and all the basic facts are in. It's way different when you are in the middle of matters, and trying to solve a problem real time.
As for various bias's in action...check out Nickolas Means clip on three mile island. It caused me to be more aware of bias in thinking.
ua-cam.com/video/hMk6rF4Tzsg/v-deo.html
You are very good at explaining all of this in laymen terms. I have learned so much just by watching two of your 10 minute videos. RIP to all of those who perished onboard the flight yesterday.
Reminds me of another sad helicopter crash when Stevie Ray Vaughn and others lost their lives in similar circumstances in 1990.
What an incredible talent lost right when he'd gotten on a straighter path and possible super stardom.
When i heard of this crash, Stevie Ray Vaughn was the very name that came to mind.
KAT ranking guitarists is very subjective. They’re both GOATs
KAT I personally think SRV is technically better than Jimi, but Jimi was much more creative willing to go outside the box.
Did you know that Eric Clapton actually gave up his seat on that helicopter because Stevie wanted to get to Chicago (?) to see his girlfriend? He died with three members of Clapton’s entourage.
Juan, another excellent, "down-to-earth" explanation. You are, by far, the best aviation reporter, anywhere, today. All the news outlets need you. And you do not "grind axes". Very professional.
He was pretty Damn good on Dams too.
"Down-to-earth"... Sounds alot like Kobe's chopper.
@Wes Porter Hmmm...Should I believe Juan's "theory" about what may have happened (which seems to happen quite frequently), or your guess at there "clearly"(?) being a mechanical failure or passed out pilot? I'll stick with Juan on this one. Chances are he'll be right on the money.
@Wes Porter what if that sudden spike was the actual moment of impact and the ADSB data being sent out was skewed. When electronic sensors fail they can fail in a high or low state.. This cannot possibly be determined without more data from either eyewitnesses(which normally can't be trusted) or instruments from the wreckage. Jaun great job!
Michael Laviolette lets not say Down to Earth when talking about crashes bud
I’ll give a slight correction on the assumption about the ceiling, and rising terrain in that area. I live in Santa Barbara and am a former Army aviator and flew commercially when I got out 30 years ago. The fog that morning, all up and down the coast, was unusually scuddy. There was not the typical marine layer with an 800’ ceiling and a few hundred feet thick. There was junk hanging in the air, creepy up inclines, hanging in ravines, etc. there are was no real ceiling, it was just a nasty mess. Plus the fog was very dense. The little hanging clouds, sometimes touching the ground, were very thick. Plus he was going WAY too fast for the conditions. Personally I would not have flown that day. They should have taken a limo.
Great points - Plus it was Sunday I would think the traffic would be minimal & the limo a quick ride.
Yes I agree, that day was very odd it was very think clouds. And Yes i never understood that part, why were they going 160 knots.. roughly 180mph in very dense thick fog? it doesnt make sense.
@sbdreamin Totally agree. Very weird! I live in San Diego, and I flew into town Jan. 21 after being gone for Christmas. I noticed how thick the fog has been on multiple days this past week. First, I noticed the density from my SWA plane as we approached SD. I did a double take to look at it. Then I noticed it while sitting outside the airport for my ride; I truly expected my friend to tell me to take an Uber because she doesn't like driving in bad weather. It was kind of a blinding fog or something. Very suffocating feeling with no breaks in in it.
@@Random-rt5ec same thing I said I limo trip on Sunday would be quick .no traffic
I’m with you 100%!! I know hindsight is 20/20 but as the pilot responsible for the safety of all onboard, I would have advised against flying into those conditions and against continuing if the conditions changed en route!!
Back in the day, I flew helicopters in the military. We had a phenomenon known as a "brown out". In the dusty conditions of combat one could go IFR due to all of the dust flying up when coming to a hover after an approach. We were trained to deal with this situation by looking out of the lower chin bubble rather than attempting to go on instruments at such a critical point.
We also had what was known as a "stop turn". The aircraft would be rolled sharply, almost 90 degrees, combined with a peddle turn in the same direction so the the aircraft was perpendicular to the direction of flight. Thus the rotor would be facing aft of the direction of travel. At this point power to the rotor would be applied, such that the aircraft would slow down in a very short distance. This was a VFR procedure, and was very effective in a hostile environment where a 180 turn was required or where one needed to keep their speed up until the last moment to avoid incoming. I am not sure if civilian Pilots were taught this technique?
In the 70's scenic tours of the Grand Canyon were allowed to legally operate below the outer rim. There were days when the cloud cover was right down to the ridge line of the Canyon, however, below the rim it was still VFR. We would fly up the Canyon to the Grand Canyon Airport which was located a little over a mile south. There were days when the cloud bases were at 200 feet at the airport and visibility up to 5 miles. We would fly to a known point north of the airport while still in the Canyon and request a "special VFR" approach from the tower. We could see the runway from the South Rim and proceeded in without difficulty. This was standard SOP for almost all of the tour operators.
The Banning Pass just west of Palm Springs is notorious for inadvertent flight into IMC with CFIT. East of the pass the air is often dry and clear which is conducive to VFR flight, however, west of the pass the humid moist air off the ocean will cause a low dense cloud cover with restrictive visibility. The pass is narrow and is framed by Mt San Jacinto (10834') and Mt San Gorgornio (11499'). Once in the pass there is not sufficient room to do a 180 degree turn back. There is an airport at Banning and some aircraft have been lucky enough to spot the airport, with a straight in landing.
In the military when I got a ride on a helo always had 2 pilots flying. When I heard 1 pilot is that the way the civilian air works?
We call it a "sideways quick stop" Had to demonstrate an ability to accomplish this from my PPL on a R22, right thru to CPL conversions on everything else, in order to get signed off on type. This was in South Africa.
Shenandoah Hills That actually happened to me once. Flew to Palm Springs and coming back in afternoon it was so hazy that when I called for vector to El Monte they redirected me to fly out over the ocean and come back in underneath to Long Beach because it went IFR on me.
@@steveb1739 Sort of like a quick stop on snow skis, where the skies are turned 90 degrees to the down hill and the edges dug in.
This is why we need this channel free and clear of constraints by UA-cam and officials. The public needs to know
The pressure to please a famous passenger on non-schedule charters may have been in play. Been there. You have to say no if you are not comfortable.
gmcjetpilot I’ve been there too, trying to get into Aspen in a blizzard in a corporate jet. The pressure to complete the flight can be enormous. It is very hard to say no.
If I ever win the lotto and have a personal pilot....I will PAY him/her enough to say NO to me.
-True. Stevie Ray Vaughn... among countless other victims of fame and notoriety.
@@mikelp72 As I know you know, ALWAYS better to says "NO" then "Opps...we're dead."
Very possible. I was telling a friend earlier that when I flew for a small company wx. was never a factor for my boss. If I didn't fly it he'd find someone that would and thete was a line of guys behind me chomping at the bit. Being young dumb and being invincible I flew. I flew a lot of the coast of TX, LA, MS, AL and FLA. Nice and flat, as long as I knew where towers were scud running wasn't as big a risk. I wouldn't do it now though.
Hey great interview you just gave a few minutes ago on newstalk1010 / Toronto - I listened in the car on my way home from work! Good to know people are coming to you for this.
Haa! You heard it! That was quick. I hope it made sense?
@@blancolirio You do great work ! Really appreciate your channel and I'm not a pilot. :)
@@blancolirio Perfect.
Toronto, very cool, even though the world lost a very impressive man and other precious lives.
So sorry for the families.
Hey I fly out of cycc ☺
Been to Toronto many times
Please my fellow pilots in training or 10 year Vets. Beware of get their iteus, The words "No we cant go " will always save lives. Theres no shame
Yes! Exactly! Telling Kobe that we can’t fly. I wonder if the pilot had any reservations at all or did he lift off full of confidence. Do you go with just a little reservation? Say 10 %?
why did the helicopter take a nose dive and go into rapid decline speeding up?
@@rawfoodphilosophy7061
That's my question. Honestly
@@rawfoodphilosophy7061 sadly no CVR or data recorder was onboard. It will certainly complicate root cause analysis.
If you use your instruments instead of the force it helps too.
I wont drive in the fog around my house...
Thank you for all of your updates. You are a credible source.
Always come here for credible and professional info
No amount of money would make me fly my chopper with 8 innocent lives in it in weather like that.
Homezmaker souls
That negligence is entirely on Kobe. That alone, is what I am surmising. I'm certain he will be a restless soul for evermore, knowing if not for his influence this may not have ever happened. Feel free to disagree. I don't really want to care, but I do.
@ChiliContestWinner I don't agree. Kobe writes the checks and what he says most likely goes. Likely Kobe thought the copter flight was just more basketball. Yes, the pilot should have walked, but his livelihood was on the line because of Kobe.
@ChiliContestWinner Like you said, the pilot is the expert on safe weather conditions but who is expert on unsafe weather with family and lives on board. Nobody is expert in that field but somebody like Kobe could have thought otherwise without any issue other than being late. Final say was mother nature's because special VFR clearance allows certain pilots to warrant it.That rule in itself is a form of negligence when weather is unsafe for flying., but that's another matter altogether. This was Kobe's damn craft. No, I believe he could have canceled, it's HIS say and if he should ever be given the chance to relive it all again what do ya think he woulda done different. Don't even try to tell me he wouldn't want to have second chance to change the outcome by simply waving the flight off and just contend with L.A. traffic and be a bit late. The pilot just made the final decision. Negligence on behalf of Kobe in my opinion 😤
they all knew the risks - who would get into a helicopter with zero visibility ?
In a strange way learning more about the accident is helping me with my grief about it. Thank you! Just so damn sad.
Jonny that’s true!?!
It does help. Many people need to try it.
@@HiroForever Knowing victims likely saw the end coming is a great comfort for those mourning. You never want to think your loved ones were in distress.
I wrote this yesterday, and want to repeat what I wrote at that time-I have found your video commentary extremely informative, despite the fact that I have little expertise or knowledge in helicopter aviation. These down to earth explanation videos are worth their weight in gold! Your concise. comprehensive explanation has enlightened me more than any other videos I've seen, and you have helped me to truly understand the facts as they are now known. I've now subscribed to your channel, and I very much look forward to watching and hearing more from you in the day/weeks and months ahead. Thank you again for the public service you are providing. Thank you.
Would you be able to attend one of those NTSB press conferences? We would all enjoy legitimate technical questions instead of the endless airhead media questions.
Go to NTSB UA-cam channel and they post b roll videos of crash scenes and updates soon as they are released
Kevin Thomas. Perhaps he would like to, but he wants his pilots license back.
@donmartin1 I miss interpreted Kevin’s question. I thought Kevin was inquiring about NTSB press conference not Juan.
Media is the enemy of the people.
Juan would make a good investigator.
Sad sad sad. Still in shock. Thanks for the info Juan.
Wow...the NTSB is lucky to have a witness like the man in the video. Well spoken and knowledgeable.
Thanks for this report. The mainstream media was making me crazy with all the speculation and inaccuracies.
Fog is the enemy,don't ever fly in foggy conditions.
Or drive!
It’s fine as long as you use the force.
OK if you're operating above FAA minimums, are alert & sober, have a properly operating a/c, and a trained co-pilot who is also fully in the moment. Know when to fly to your alternate and do so when you reach minimums on the approach!
Borxoi86
Or... you can just use the force.
Borxoi86 properly operating a/c as in air conditioning?
Watch the eyewitness video. The guy has got to be the most competent ear-witness in history.
Agreed. He's old school...knows how to communicate rationally and coherently...lol.
Yeah, an absolutely fabulous witness. Knows how to observe, understand how the world around him works, articulate.
@@bluetoes591 didn't see video.
@@constancemitchell6309 ???
@@constancemitchell6309 here it is ua-cam.com/video/28QYy8lrww8/v-deo.html
The eyewitness account linked is very good. The guy says in his many many years living in the area he had never seen the marine layer and weather so bad.
MARCUS KOHL....a REALLY PATHETIC comment. Compassion EVER?
Juan, helicopter operators often fly VFR or Special VFR for reasons other than expediency. Minimum altitude restrictions for IFR flight following are an issue not just because of a desire to stay visual. The typical cruising altitudes for helicopter flights is often much lower for various reasons. The MSA for this route of flight rises when approaching the mountainous terrain near where the helicopter crashed. I don’t have a chart handy, but the minimum of 1,000 feet above the highest terrain in the sector would require a cruising altitude well above the 1000- 1,200 feet this flight was operating at. You are correct that there are minimum forward speeds required to operate a helicopter in instrument flight conditions, making hovering not an option. I haven’t flown helicopters in nearly twenty years, so you should consult with a pilot with more recent experience to confirm and or update my information.
"... making hovering not an option." That's something new I learnt today though I don't fully understand why. Thankyou Ken.
@@rogerroger6049 If I get it, to hover you need a visual reference point, instruments can't tell you if you're sliding to the side or moving backward or forward very slowly, making hovering way more dangerous than to keep on flying
@@xeels2708 Especially in areas of Hills and Valleys ... instruments can't determine altitude properly at even low speed
then why would an experienced pilot be flying so low ? we even have an eye witness, that saw him.
@@jaydawg7820 Altitude is barometric tho, the heli should be able to get reliable info on baro altitude but unreliable info on speed
Best explanation I have heard since the accident. My heart really goes out to the families as they await word that the remains of their love ones have been found. It's got to be nerve wracking.
I am IFR multi fixed wing, commercial helicopter with lots of vfr time in 500's. Spot on Juan, flight into canyon rising terrain, low ceiling. Pilot's biggest mistake was not to slow down. When you fly a helicopter fast like an airplane you eliminate your best escape route to safety, which is to land at the best area you see between your feet. Pick you LZ can be a gas station, car lot, median, doesn't matter. Cell towers, wires are your main concerns. People are usually understanding, curious and helpful. When you get low and slow enough that the traffic bellow is passing you between you feet is usually time to give up and land. Take a break, or get a ride, conditions change quickly. Making a transition to ifr flight in the muck, is extremely demanding and any distractions, frequency changes and the like will compound a bad situation in seconds.
Thanks Juan, I always seek your perspective and enjoy your excursions
Thank you Juan for helping me better understand this tragedy. My prayers go out to all the families!
You always have to leave yourself a way out, man my heart just melted when you said that, so true. If things go sideways what am I going to do. And all the young ones involved, can’t stop thinking about it.😔
As a non-pilot, thanks for the real details Juan on what is known to have taken place so far.
Having a high profile client, with high demands, can make a pilot go beyond the their limits.
@Rusty Climber The limits have nothing to do with the speed of the helicopter. The limits being referred to here are the limits of safety relating to visibility and height above ground.
@Rusty Climber wow, 4 likes on your ignorant comment. Whoosh!
What was my first guess. I've seen these rich people really throw their weight around. Make people do things they typically wouldn't.
What are you basing "high demands" on?
Ultimately it is the fault of the company policies and culture.
Thank you for honoring the “nine souls” aboard the aircraft. I understand the newsworthiness of Kobe’s demise, but each person was precious to those who were close to them.
Your time off has been a benefit to your subscribers. When you return to work our reports will not be as instantaneous as they are now. Hopefully the accidents will just stop.
The accidents will never stop. That's why they're called "accidents".
re: "Hopefully the accidents will just stop." no worries, once word is out JB's back in the right seat thumbing the mic. when they hear his voice, everyone will be on notice to STRAIGHTEN UP AND FLY RIGHT.
Thanks for your time Mr Brown. Your updates are awesome. 👍👍✈️✈️🇺🇸
Thanks Juan, always good to have your perspective
No wonder Juan Brown urged us to watch the entire interview. The witness was obviously very experienced. Plus he wore a storied cap. "The Pilots Airline"
RaoulStankovitch I thought I was the only one that noticed the TWA hat. Got a couple of them in the closet. The golden years.
Skud running in marginal conditions..... inadvertent flight into IMC, loss of control due to loss of situational awareness and spacial disorientation............. very sad..... Landing at Van Nuys and taking a limo would have been the right thing to do...... Get-there-itus clouds good judgment and is a killer
You pretty well nail it
Yeah .... seems like it.
@@bombsaway6340 Yep, I looked at everything Juan saw and drew the same conclusion.... He tried to escape with a 180 degree turn and climb, but lost control and impacted the terrain... ADSB data proves the loss of control portion... steep descent after the climb with erratic descending vertical speed before data ended 800 ft lower than where he was straight and level........ Sad, because the occupants had to have known something was wrong the few seconds before the impact.... not just a straight and level crash and were unaware of it.......sad
I believe he could have been trying to locate the helipad at the sheriffs dept at 27050 Agoura Rd, Calabasas, CA 91301 if he was in a IIMC emergency. Looks like he was about .8 miles due east of the helipad. Red dot on this map is the helipad at the Sheriffs Dept. i.imgur.com/GenilK9.jpg
I believe KeithKman is correct in his guess as the copter had already cleared the highest point on the 101 which is between Calabasas Parkway and Las Virgenes Rd. He probably came down the freeway at that point and mistook the Las Virgenes bridge for the Lost Hills bridge and was trying to circle back to where he thought the Sheriff's helipad was.
Fantastic update without speculation. I’m looking forward to additional reporting. Thank Juan.
Best place for CORRECT Information!
Agreed. I haven't been paying much attention to the media reports. But Juan Browne? I am here.
They should't allow any chopper in foggy conditions unless it's an emergency
Based on the information on hand and I did watch the final flight recording of the pilot, it seems to me that the pilot had no idea that the terrain was creeping up on him and what I think happened was he got cleared of the fog just a little and saw he was going to clip the mountain so that explains the sudden increase in elevation but it was likely too late, he hit the mountain and then spun out of control and crashed. Or as you said, he attempted to correct his elevation, got disoriented and lost control of the helicopter.
It seemed to happen very quickly and very suddenly judging by the flight data from air traffic, because it was only a few minutes after the pilot stopped responding and fell of radar that the chopper went down. So really this flight seemed doomed from the start, it had all the elements of things that could go wrong, and they did.
Great information, as usual Juan. Thank you for the update.
BTW - I forwarded your channel, this report, to the local most popular radio show - “The John and Ken Show” on KFI 640 Los Angeles. They were questioning whether pilots at this level are “motivated” to get their VIP to their destination no matter what. I hope you don’t mind any added exposure. Regardless, this is a tragic loss of life.
That UAE crash was a British bird and yes the NTSB is on scene and they just did a press conference
Pressure from others can impact the person in charge of making the right decision....
It should NEVER influence a decision like that. We all know it does though.
Explain bro
Absolutely. Years ago I flew with a small operation. WX. was never a factor to him. If I didn't fly it he had pilots that would. I was young, stupid and bullet proof so I always flew. I look back now and think what a dumbass I was, I can see 100 feet good enough.
Like the John F Kennedy crash
Its the same pressure by yourself.
"TAKE OFFS" are optional..."LANDINGS" are manditory. Not a good idea to fly single pilot in IMC/marginal conditions.
The best thing that's I've heard for a year. This can be applied to many thing besides flying
Keith W. Bowles a good day of flying is when the number of take offs = number of landings.
So sad... I can’t help but wonder if the pilot, upon seeing nothing but gray outside, looked over desperately at that empty seat next to him.
@@easygoing2479, don't wonder any longer, I'm sure the pilot didn't have time to wonder; and, as a matter of fact & sadly, he probably never saw it coming! I'm sure he was extremely worried, but never imagined the outcome! By the time he got disoriented, it was probably over! RIP 😥
In addition to speaking with my Vietnam veteran Helicopter pilot father, who was in the 1st Air Cav. Your channel is the first I thought of after hearing about this crash.
Thank you for the update Juan... and Thank You for confirming my suspicions regarding that video clip of a helo crash. I was 99% sure that was not related to this incident. So sad for so many families. Aviation accidents are so terribly unforgiving.
My heart goes out to all the passengers that lost their lives in that tragic flight may they all rest in peace 🙏🙏🙏
I’m not in aviation or have any expertise, but I enjoy the way you explain and all the redditors who take their time to explain this .
I wanna eat ur cat
The eyewitness account referenced is indeed very detailed and one of the best if not the best eyewitness account I've ever heard. The guy knew his stuff and hopefully it helps with the investigation.
soag87 Wheres the link?
@@Stealcurtains64e ua-cam.com/video/28QYy8lrww8/v-deo.html
The emotion he displayed at the end was heart wrenching, nine precious souls lost forever. We all are reminded how brief life is, we all have the resposibility to fly above thr "fog" and see each other the way we should. At the end of the day Love will always be the measurement of a well lived life.
Well said! Thanks!
Umm what
Brian you have the most sober and factual analysis on the web. Thanks.
@Christopher Schuster Ha! How did I get that wrong? Thanks!
The S-76B can only be flown IFR with two pilots on board. We have one here but we don’t ever do IFR ops with it
Ken Clark I thought S-76B is IFR rated with one pilot in the US. Almost every other country that operates it says two pilots for IFR rating. Am I wrong?
Depends on if you can comply with note 15 of the H2NE TCDS.
So your saying that if one of your pilots goes inadvertent IMC they wouldn't go IFR because normal operations forbid it?
I read yesterday that Kobe was a helicopter pilot and had been for years. Today the search terms are so busy I can't find info on that now?
Inadvertent IMC single pilot, declare an emergency and get an IFR clearance. The S-76 can be flown single pilot IFR in that situation.
your link provided an excellent witness statement and account of the incident. Non Inflammatory report of what happened. Thanks Juan.
My flight instructor always told me take off is optional landing isnt.
No kidding
How fuckin clever.
EVERYONE makes mistakes.
Just happens that when pilots do it, lives are lost and it's considered a cost of doing business.
My dad was in an airplane accident. F4 phantom and F16 fighter pilot. Its a risk they all take and dont regret until their 100 feet from crashing man.
Appreciated the update Juan.
A classic case of "Get-There-Itis".
Exactly! I'm a pilot and I know about that feeling of pressure to go, when that small voice in the back of my head recommends against it. This is tragic and I, along with countless millions, am having a difficult time processing the loss. I'm not even a basketball fan. In cases like these, you don't have to be, in order to be a Kobe fan and feel the loss. You'd have to have been in a coma for the last 20 years not to know who Kobe was. The loss of life, particularly those young lives aboard, is even more emotionally difficult to deal with. As a Christian, my prayer is that our Lord God give his wife, his surviving children, and the families of all the other victims a peace beyond human comprehension.
I bet from K.B. people with money tend to throw their weight around and make others around them do what they typically wouldn't do themselves.
I know shit can happen anywhere but, they were only going from OC to TO..he totally could have just taken them in a Sprinter van....they may have all made it...but it is what it is......I just feel bad for the other victims families as they won't have the resources that he did to carry on....but then again they all made the choice to get on the chopper themselves.......except the kids probably.....
Reminds me of a report that I read years ago about a small business jet crash in Aspen or some such mountain airport. Flying at night in marginal weather into an airport in a valley with terrain on both sides, apparently the high profile client was known to exert pressure on people to get things done. What should have been a missed approach instead resulted in the pilot continuing the approach, but he was significantly off-center to the runway center--line and crashed into terrain. The scent of get-there-itis was all over that one, as no other definite cause was found (eg. mechanical. toxicology), and there was an alternate airport that they could have gone to.
choprox01 true but Kobe and his family routinely flew for over a decade. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t even the first time flying in foggy conditions. I mean Kobe nor the pilot knowing decided to fly
ADS-B data is spot on unless the barometer/GPS were malfunctioning in the A/C. ADS-B data is sent in packets with checksums. Data corruption, especially multi packet corruption, is very unlikely. The ADS-B data rate is pretty high.
ADS-B transceivers usually have their own dedicated GPS/barometer. If the ATC flight path said it climbed and descended, it most likely did.
TechGuy thank you
So just how good and checksummed is the analog data that is put into those packets at the sending end? I just assumed that Juan was leaving room for instrument error, since that is generally where the errors occur these days.
@@SusanKay- GPS works fine standing still, hovering or going 200 MPH. I think the refresh rate is 30Hz. Hikers use GPS all the time and some of them are pretty slow. ;) Does the GPS in your car work when parked ? I thought so.
@@lwilton Instrument error and data communication error are two different things.
That helicopter probably had redundant GPSs and/or bariometers feeding the ADS-B. The failure of those components would lead to instrument error.
Communication error is when the transmission is incorrect or gets garbled.
Checksums do nothing for instrument error. If the instruments feed bad data into the ADS-B box, it will transmit it.
Checksums prevent the mis interpretation of bad data at the receiver. The ATCer would have lost data if there was a checksum error. That didn't happen. There was ADS-B data right until the end.
Right .. why would he suggest the data might be flawed? Pretty strange assumption
The "Special VFR" operation was originally designed for aircraft operating into or out of the primary airport or through "Control Zones" which, by definition, had operating Control Towers. There is no existing "Class" of airspace that is identical to the Control Zone. This procedure was changed in the 1990's to accommodate changes in airspace classification and I think reduced helicopter minima were added to the procedures during that time.
Once N72EX aircraft was outside of class C and D airspace (Burbank and Van Nuys respectively), the aircraft was operating in Class G airspace as long as he was at or below 1200 ft. AGL. This permitted N72EX to legally operate under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) "clear of clouds" (Far 91.155(b)(1)).
Note that no Special VFR clearance was in effect at the time and place of the accident. The clearance Van Nuys issued was terminated when N72EX reported in VFR conditions once he had passed Van Nuys and the pilot switched his transponder to 1200.
The question I have is: why did N72EX make a rapid climb of at least 1400fpm immediately prior to the loss of radar contact and, presumably, its rapid descent into terrain?
Dogbreath Excellent comment and question. I’m wondering if, as they are traveling at 155kts, did a hillside loom into view and the pilot quickly reacted to avoid terrain.
GREAT rundown and almost exactly what I was thinking. Happens far too often, sadly.
thank you for the eyewitness link , and for your straight forward message telling greetings from germany .
Amazing all the theories. Thanks for addressing the video making the rounds...
@@williammaxwell5101 they arn't real, boomer
Such a tragic loss to all their families, friends and team mates. Please hold your loved ones tight. Thank you for the update.
1/30/2020
The pilot was in contact with ATC getting flight following. That also means that ATC had radar contact with the aircraft. The pilot had only to ask for an IFR clearance, ATC would have immediately issued a clearance similar to “climb and maintain 5,000, fly heading 180.”
It’s the speed in which the pilot seemingly entered those conditions that keeps me wondering what was going on between the headset. Every flight is a unique experience no matter how many times you have flown the same route. Perhaps that concept was left in sunny Orange County that fateful morning on what might have been the 100th similar flight. Why not slow way down and make sure proceeding further is the wise and safe course of action before every option and margin of safety is used up? We may never know. So sad. Thanks for the excellent analysis Juan.
He really wasn't going fast, eye witness accounts all say they could track him. He went fast when he lost control.
I was referring to his reported spies while following highway 101 not his final maneuvering speed while in the clouds. Reports said he was doing over 180mph. If this is incorrect please comment.
Reported "speed"
I would never get on a helicopter..... especially when there is heavy fog.
They took off by the coast, maybe onshore flow and no fog there.
Me and the wife got to take a flight around Las Vegas a few months back it was one of the best experiences of my life. Don’t cheat yourself !!! Fearful is no way to live
ChiliContestWinner My wife went on a helicopter ride in Hawaii , I stayed behind, because I refuse to fly in a helicopter ,2 weeks later a helicopter crashed killing everyone on board from that same company she rode on, I told her see, that’s why I won’t get on one, this just recently happened, it was all over the news! These things crash all the time and it seems like it’s all ways about the fog!
@Sir Tristan Of course the odds are greater. People ride in cars EVERY day. Moron
@@bonsai108 re: "maybe onshore flow and no fog there." unfortunately accepted "terrestrial norms"/judgements don't apply. for the Pilot there's no such thing as "free lunch". what i mean by that is, along with the privilege of being issued a License by the FAA comes the burden/responsibility of CHECKING WEATHER before every flight. this must be done not only at the originating FBO, but also along your route, and at your destination. this goes "hand in glove" with filing a flight plan (ie: Navigation). by definition weather is changeable, but with the sophistication/availability of modern data, there's NO EXCUSE for not "pulling weather". one must attempt to KNOW BEFORE THEY GO.
I don't think there is that much question about what happened given it was a special VFR flight. As they flew into higher terrain, the ceiling became a real problem. You are exactly right. That is pilot error. I assume terrain awareness warnings were turned off since they were already so low they would have constant warnings.
billyrayband can I just ask? If your life was in danger would you not even if it was not authorized rise above the clouds and ascend to save your own life to the point where the terrain was no longer a threat? Also can you elaborate on what he means when he says the pilot may have ascended and got disoriented and lost control?
@@phreaspeek The problem with this is that there could be another IFR plane right where you pop up into.
@@kdubb718 When "disoriented" is used in this context it means that when you fly in clouds you lose all reference to earth. You literally lose all sense of up and down straight or turn, acceleration, deceleration. The movement of the aircraft is doing this. Your inner ear plays tricks on you and you may think you are turning when you are actually going straight for example. At this point you must fly only by reference to instruments to keep the ship in control and upright. But without a clearance and without terrain separation he could not fly with reference to instruments without being able to miss mountains. He was stuck partially in the clouds, partially out, with a vague sense of where the hills are and having occasional glimpses of the ground. He can be a completely capable IFR pilot, but the transition from VFR to IFR is difficult unless in ideal conditions with assured clearance from (most importantly) obstacles, and other aircraft. Disorientation leads to unstable flight and aircraft literally falling out of clouds at a high rate of speed---an all too common occurrence in aviation. This all explains the high speed and the high rate of descent at the end. They climbed up, got disoriented, and literally lawn darted into the mountain. Terrible tragedy.
@@darrellhay so do you think they knew they were crashing or just flying?
@@unwelcomemotivation Hard to say for sure because of the fog so close to the ground. Maybe for just an instant. What a horrible tragedy. This just makes me sick
Just found this channel. Love how professional and well this video was put together.You gained a sub and a like.
Juan, you are spot on once again. More concise information than any news outlet giving real world answers to those casting armchair aspersions.
Juan, I'm in the safety field after 25 years of flying. I love your insight and it has something for all levels of experience. Thanks!
Juan, you're the best. Always get excited when I see a new video in my feed from your channel.
You are a very knowledgeable man... thank you.
Your videos are a huge relief from the efftard mainstream media!
So refreshingly real
Thank you so much for your videos. I’m sure you’ve had this channel prior to Kobe, but that is what brought me here. I’ve learned so much from your videos and found your name by a subscriber, who reference you in another video. I’ve never been interested in doing helicopter tours or riding one for any reason. This crash has peaked my interest in learning more about helicopter’s and flight terminology. You are definitely one of the best out there, so I wanted to share my gratitude for what you do. Your videos are very informative, and you ask and answer great predicting questions. I’m so so so sorry that this has happened to those families. I have a little more understanding as to how this could’ve happened, and hope the final report can help prevent others from repeating.
PILOTS CALL THEM “GRANITE CLOUDS/Mountains!!”
(STAY 1,000’ft ABOVE HIGHEST OBJECT IN AREA)
I was just like everybody else when I heard about Kobe’s death I couldn’t believe it. Get-there-itis could have been a factor again. RIP. Thanks Juan, you explain these things better than the talking heads.
It's not all about him. Struth !
Thank you-- what an amazing eye-witness. Little speculation and obviously with some knowledge.
Thanks for the clear and concise facts about air travel procedures, and exercising restraint in offering a definitive conclusion of events.
Thanks Mr Brown!! It’s always nice to be able too come to ur channel and find out what happened from a fellow pilot! U R fast to report & accurate! Anytime I hear of a significant crash, I come to u! Job well done!!!👍
Excellent video. I can't begin to say how thankful I am to have a resource like you that I can trust to give me real facts
Flying in super thick fog i can imagine is almost like trying to fly blindfolded
Joe: Not exactly; you can still see your instrument panel pretty clearly.
I was driving (on the ground!) when a crazy heavy snowstorm hit and I couldn't even see the hood of my own car. I didn't dare stop in case a crazed semi was coming up from behind and I couldn't see enough to see if there was anywhere to pull off the road. I actually lost sense of what was left, right and even up or down, even though I was pretty sure the tires were pointing downward, it felt like I was floating in space. Finally got enough of a break in the snow to see a place to pull off. I'm sure the pucker factor would increase exponentially in the air under blind conditions like that.
@Mike Hayden I never said that; but it is critical to always keep in mind that you are making forward progress, and that you need to be thinking in the space well ahead of your craft. IFR conditions rarely hit you by surprise, rather, you are in a continuum where you see the need coming upon you, then hit your decision point and make either a good or bad decision. You should have been playing it safe, with heightened awareness of your instruments, so that if IFR became necessary, you would not have a few seconds of disorientation while you made the shift from watching terrain and landmarks to trusting your panel. I'm just second-guessing, but it looks like the request to go IFR should have been made much earlier as the craft was climbing to stay above terrain and found the ceiling limiting their climb.
Many years ago, I often chartered flights that made an intermediate stop at NAS Point Mugu (a bowl that fills with thick fog). I would start from San Diego or Orange County, in bright sunlight, and arrive into Point Mugu to find it filled with clouds and fog. I'm not an IFR rated pilot, so even though I was paying the bills, I was just meat cargo. We would assume that Point Mugu would require an instrument approach and our flights were IFR all the way. OTOH, I would never pressure the pilot to carry more baggage/cargo or to fly anywhere/anytime he wasn't happy to go. We would usually have a single engine turboprop craft, with just one pilot, and he did all the work of flight and navigation (and I don't know what landing approach systems Point Mugu used in the early 80's, maybe just glide slope and locator). We would turn onto final at the eastern rim of the mountains, line up with runway 21, and slide down into the gloom. A real highlight of the approach was a radio tower, about 2 miles before the runway, which was about a half-mile to the southwest and which usually had its top in the clouds. After a couple of minutes of watching your strobe light illuminate the mists around you, you would drop out of the ceiling just about the time you passed this big red flashing tower. There were all sorts of nasty stuff out there in the clouds that you never knew were THAT close.
@@torchandhammer spatial disorientation
Not really @Joe V ; When your training for IFR, you use a HOOD which totally blinds you except for instrument view. That's the purpose. Remember, this guy Ara was flying in the soup with SVFR.
Thanks Juan for the report. Great as always.
I always appreciate your take on these incidents... Very informative... Thanks Juan
You've always got to leave yourself a way out!!!.....Thank you Juan!!!......
wow this is the best explanation I heard so far. We'll all just have to wait 1 year for the final report. RIP kobe, gigi, john, keri, alyssa, christina, payton, sara and ara
The link is very interesting. That has to be the best eyewitness account of an air crash I have ever seen on the TV/Internet. Credit to him.
He was a 135 Chief Pilot and had 8400 hours too. Should have known better.
Hazardous attitude Macho and Invulnerability.
As a former Incident/accident investigator one of the issues i often noticed was not in the inexperienced operators but with those with an high number of hours. Most underestimated the dangers and when they fell behind they could never catch up.
ego is a harsh mistress.
@@aaronlopez3585 Thank you, for mentioning that. I hear that "he had xxxxxx hours". Pilots never get to a level of hours where they are safe from themselves. Complacency is a big problem with high time pilots. Skills are lost, ego, over confidence. Comparing relative flying hours is fairly meaningless.
Thank you for being a voice of reasonableness.
Heartbreaking event. Your sober, fact based coverage is much appreciated, Juan. Thank you.
Media Magik Entertainment YT channel has a very good video posted with audio from the pilot. In my humble opinion, it was NOT a good day to be flying a helicopter. So sad. Thank-you so much, Juan, for all of your reports. You are the BEST!
Life is so unfair. We can't do anything for the past mistakes, but we hopefully should and must be wiser for future actions...
Joan Holliman Judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.May on the ground but above the ground you dont get a second chance.
That’s why we study history.
Great interview with the local resident. I want one of those hats
Tragic, and sounds as though it was indeed CFIT by an extremely qualified pilot. Very sad for the families of the unsuspecting passengers who perished. RIP to all.
Unless the data is incorrect, I doubt it was CFIT. Descending at a rate of 4,000 ft per minute while moving at 160 knots is not a controlled flight. More likely he lost control due to spatial disorientation while traveling VFR at low speed in IFR conditions.
Thanks for the new term I learned - CFIT, found this very helpful video- ua-cam.com/video/BXr3xr4rj98/v-deo.html&feature=emb_logo
@@jaanfo3874 I've seen many people state a similar comment like yours. What does it mean to lose control in this regard? I know the definition of losing control. But what confuses me is that others have said the pilot tried to climb ( I assume that means flying higher). But did the plane turn into the mountain or fall straight down after attempting to "climb"? I hope my question makes sense.
@@GoogleAccount00 Basically, Spatial disorientation occurs when you lose track of which way is up and which way is down. Flying into a cloud, for instance, unless you're completely relying on instruments before you enter the cloud then it's easy to lose track of your orientation. Even if you're flying perfectly straight and right-side-up you can lose track of the ground, causing your brain to believe that the ground is no longer beneath you. As a result you panic and react instinctively to begin trying to correct your orientation, and if you were already oriented and failed to realize that then an unnecessary panic manuever can easily cause you to lose control.
If you remain calm and check your instruments you can prevent this from happening, but usually when it happens it's just a panic instinct; You don't see the ground below you so it must no longer be below you, and your instinct takes over and you start trying to straighten out.
@@jaanfo3874 Thank you so much. Seems like this tragedy could've been avoided. Such a sad sad situation.
Thank you for breaking this down for us, understanding what happened is critical for lessons learned. Kudos, your incredibly knowledgeable!
Thanks Juan. Good update. I have over 500 PASSENGER hours in the S-76 as a supervisor over Platform Irene flying out of Lompoc and later SMX. We always had 2 pilots both instrument rated in the twin engine bird due to the higher risk flight operations flying over water and making instrument approaches to the platform. An IFR approach required approximately 45 minutes of flight time vs say 15. This required more fuel whi
Amazingly informative, Juan. Damn you do a great job reporting this stuff! I hope that with the average persons' ability to record and share data (thanks smartphones! ;) ) investigating these types of accidents will get easier and more expedient over time. The more reliable witness info, the better.