Subs vs. Dubs
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- It's time someone settled this debate once and for all.
Bonus Video: • Subs vs Dubs Bonus Vi...
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🎵"A debate as old as time,
A fight as old as rhyme,
Dubbers vs. the weebs"🎵
The thing that's often forgotten about in this debate is that subs and dubs are both localization. Subtitles are a form of translation, and any translation will never one to one.
The only value this whole debate has is on a case by case basis on which voice performances of the dub or the sub were better. Something I hear hardly anything about.
Oh yeah, definitely agree. The hardest part about writing this script was figuring out how to address the fact that subtitles themselves also have to be localized, since that is it's own huge can of worms that really should just be it's own video. Any time I tried to broach the subject, it basically turned into another smaller video inside of this larger project that was already going to be half an hour long, so my only solution was to just excise that portion down to its absolute minimum.
That's not the case for live action movies though and lip syncing issues exists.
Shows like Hellsing and Blood Blockade Battlefront benefit from having dubs due time their settings.
I think 1 of my main problems with dubs is that they arent recorded with the actors to bounce off of which makes the dialogue feel more real and in the moment. The subbed anime the actors are in one room allowed to hear the characters inflections, emotions, and body movements to better do their part and they bounce off eachother back and forth
Dub is a big part of why Yuskue Urameshi is my favorite shonen protagonist. His lines are refreshing compared to a Luffy,Goku,Naruto,Gon character.
Totally agree.
I 💯 agree, they feel more human and realistic
The effort put into this video is amazing. Thank you. This reminded me of something I learned when taking college courses involving Japanese and Arabic literature. I always had professors complaining about the watered down English translations of the Tale of Genji or the Quran that we had to read, yet it was the only material that the entire class could understand. This video perfectly highlights that it can be futile debating whether a literal translation or a more localized translation is better when in the end, they both have their fair share of compromises.
This is actually a really good summation of the inherent problems with translation
Whut... this is the first time hearing dubs are supposed to be distracting. Bad dubs being annoying? Yes, very much so. But more distracting than literal text coversing bits of the screen? Huh? Maybe that's just me getting visually distracted easily, but... huh?
If I'm watching a subbed movie, or one that's very literally translated, I'm accepting that I won't understand all the word plays and language intricacies. In that example with the alphabet, if I'm watching it in Japanese, and I see the Hiragana chart, it should be pretty clean to me that that's nothing to do with the English alphabet, and so... well I just won't fully understand the rules of the game, but I can still see syllabaries getting crossed off the chart. But since I presumably can't understand what the characters are saying anyway (as in, which letters/syllabaries they're using in their original words) that's just a bit that'll be lost on me. Kinda like watching a movie in its original language without dubs, and you kinda know the language enough to understand what's going on, but you're not good enough at it to understand all the intricate puns.
With a dub or a more indirect translation I'm accepting that those word plays are completely lost and mayyyybe replaced by others, but also maybe not. Since in both cases (Hiragana & English alphabet) A is the first sound that gets eliminated, I'd say the dub might make the game sound even more difficult from the get go. Also, does the dubbed version also replace the Hiragana chart with an alphabet getting crossed out? Cause otherwise that seems confusing as well?
Growing up in Germany most of the movies I've watched have been dubs. (So in a way the discussion is hillarious to me, native English speakers discovering that other languages exist lol.) Funnily I find that older German dubs (70ies or so) are better than newer ones? (personal opinion, obvs) My theory is that voice actors these days are more likely to actually watch and understand the English original (cause well, most mainstream movies are English) and then try and mimick that intonation. Which just... doesn't work. English is very melodic. German is very flat. Melodic German sounds weird af. Wouldn't call it distracting, just like... watching a movie full of really bad actors lol.
I guess dubs are another layer of translation. With subs you have to obviously translate the meaning of the words, and also start getting into cultural translation (like the different levels of politenes in Japanese grammar). And with dubbing you get another layer of that as intonation can be vastly different in different languages. So either you try and keep the original intonation, and just make sure you get the text across in a different language... which might sound weird in the new language, and also might not get the tone across to the new audience. Or you completely 'translate' the tone to match the new language, but then there's potentially a huge disconnect with the picture.
Which isn't to say that you can't make good dubs, but it certainly adds another layer of difficulty on the already difficult task of translation. (On top of the technical stuff you already mentioned.)
So I mostly prefer subs simply because most dubs just... sound bad lol.
Anyway, great video, absolutely good to have both options available for whichever people might prefer. (hint hint nudge nudge at all digital content distributors who'll only have one version available in each region -.-)
It's a good point you bring up that the "debate" around subs vs dubs is mostly framed from an American-centric perspective, which is something that I think is at least implied in the video as is, but would've been interesting to dig into if I had been willing to let the scope and scale of the video balloon even more than it already did. It's very easy for American's to go their whole lives only watching media that was produced in our country with us as the primary intended audience, which I think you could even argue is partially where the idea of "the best way" to watch something comes from.
If we were raised in a culture that more easily accepts multiple languages without one of them being framed as the "dominate" language (which is also a very weirdly aggressive word choice for our preferred language) then maybe we'd be more accustomed to the ideas that you could have two separate versions of a piece of media that are different, without one of them also having to be deemed as "better".
1:54 My god we sub films and shows over here in Serbia and I'm offended as hell by this lmao
In all honesty nobody minds subs here on the telly, we're just used to it and we watch Mexican and Turkish tellenovellas all the time. It's cheap, it's quick, effective, it still has a regional flavour, and it's a good way to engage reading comprehension and eye sight among the chief public, who are usually seniors and children. Besides I'd imagine dubbing a barrage of 300-episode series would be a small nightmare.
When it comes to anime I ride on this principle myself and 98% of time I usually watch my anime subbed, same as if I'm watching a French film by Godard or a Russian film by Tarkovsky. However, for certain titles and media I sometimes pick dub on a case-by-case basis solely by what feels "right" to me. Cowboy Bebop and The Big O for example have a deeply ingrained culture that favours the English dub, and certain children's shows like Moomin also work better in dub for me. Then you got stuff like KyoAni shows whose popularity exploded precisely within a niche otaku subculture on the Internet that relied on fansubs, and so Haruhi in her native language simply feels more appropriate. Some shows like Panty & Stocking are so good in both the Japanese and English dubs that both of them are worth checking out. My general rule for others is that if the show is overtly Japanese in sentiment, setting, or comedy and narrative structures, it's probably best to go for the sub. And the FFVII Remake that's about to come out I'll likely play with the English dub, mainly because of nostalgia for having imagined the English voices in my head while playing on the Playstation so many years ago.
Reminds me of people complaining about someone else enjoying pineapple on their pizza. Don’t want pineapple on your pizza? Fine. Don’t put pineapple on your pizza.
Don’t like subtitles and would rather watch something dubbed? Fine. Don’t watch the subbed version.
You do you.
Dubs. Like yu yu hakushu they made the text better. More nuanced.
Am I watching on my own / watching it as soon as it airs? Subs. Am I watching it with friends or family? Dubs, if we have them. It's a very simple and pragmatic choice for me. I prefer subs, but I do also like dubs as a fun way to experience the anime again. Especially if it's something like Black Lagoon, Kekai Sensen, Baccano, Cowboy Bebop or Princess Principal, where english actually *feels* better for the setting.
Sometimes I even prefer dubs as an aesthetic choice, particularly if I'm watching older shows like the ones I grew up watching as a kid. Is the dub for Sailor Moon or Gundam good? Eh, probably not, but it's still exactly what I'm looking for. I demand more bad Brooklyn accents!
Authorial intent can swing in favour of the dub in other ways as well. Many anime are based off manga and light novels. I've come across a few cases where something was taken out in the transition to anime that the dub decided to put back in. Many in charge of dub scripts stating they are reading through said manga/light novel while adapting the script. Log horizon's transition to anime, for example, saw the removal of many RPG terms present in the light novel that were then added back into the dub script. Same with Rimiru's pun heavy dialogue in "That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime". It's difficult to tell if the Japanese studio took these things out or translator for the subtitles simply omitted them because like you, I have almost no grasp of Japanese.
There's also the Dr Stone dub, which this video does a better of explaining than me.
ua-cam.com/video/Rmni8OZGfK4/v-deo.html
Doesn't happen often, but worth noting all the same.
Love this video. I enjoy anime subs and dubs and I hate this debate so much. Ppl just need to chill and watch whatever they want. I personally do watch more dubs tho for anime while I always watch live action in its original language. I feel like dubbing doesn’t work nearly as well with live action than with animation but at the same time I respect those who work hard to make live action dubs.
good point on the YYH translation this also goes with other Animes since cultural context is a MUST if your native to the language but if you are not,trivial stuff like that will go over your head but overall the majority of the story can be easily understood
how i only find this channel now, your content is amazing and really inspiring, the first video i saw was "how to get into Gundam" and i watched F91 and then all of the Gundam series, i also really loved the ghost in the shell one, and im currently finishing evangelion to watch your video about it, you ever come back to making videos pls make one about Monster its a really amazing anime
Sub gang
For me it's fine for the dub to change the words the character says as long as the story or character themselves remain unchanged.
Or at the very least the writer of the dub intended for that be the case.
My wife has the same problem. I don't like watching things with a lot of subs as I end up having to read them aloud
This is a really good rundown on why this debate is so stupid. Where I live media rarely gets dubs in my native language, so I've grown up with subs since I learned to read. I think this is why i personally prefer subs, I might as well watch/play the stuff "as intended." But I don't get why it's a debate, like you said, why do you care what other people do? I got a friend who's dyslexic and only has a basic understanding of English, so he would not get anything substantial out of an anime episode (which don't get subs in our native language) because he simply wouldn't be able to follow along, not even mentioning the fact that he knows next to nothing about Japanese culture and language. Yet he's stil got to enjoy a few Ghibli movies because those were big enough to get dubs here.
I have huge admiration for localisers, (usually North American ones as its a huge thing there and I usually get my media with English subtitles) translating a piece of media from a different culture (like Japan) to make sense to the average western (American) viewer/player is a difficult job. Recently the game Yakuza Like a Dragon was released with an English dub. Most of the former games in the series hadn't received dubs, so this was a new departure for the series. And SEGA knocked it out the park. They managed to sync the mouth movements to the English voices. Yet the dub still stirred up the sub vs dub debate and it's so dumb. I still prefer playing in the original Japanese, and I think it's just because I have a hard time with the way American English is acted in most dubs, and I'm not sure I can explain why, but I recognise why people would pick the dub.
Another thing that the Yakuza series does well with it's localization (in my opinion) is how its balances how much of the culture needs to be translated directly or fitted to the "American" culture. For example the games usually don't translate honorifics, the game expects you to have a basic knowledge of knowing was "-san" after a name means (or expects you to google it) while still attempting to translate different Japanese dialects to an "equivalent" English dialect. Sometimes the translators just have to commit. The Japanese culture is such an important part of this series that something like honorifics matters to story.
At least it's better than the jelly donuts (rice balls) of Pokemon or the burgers (ramen) of Ace Attorney lmao
sorry I rambled
The Yakuza series is a very interesting example of how westerners have become more accustomed over time to different forms of localization. You had the original Yakuza be brought over to America and dubbed with actors like Michael Madsen and Mark Hamil in the mid-2000's, but then over a decade later the game gets rereleased as Kiwami and fans are now more than willing to just play a game with Japanese V/O and very limited cultural adaptations. So at least it's good to know that with time, things can get better in this regard.
Thanks for watching and glad you enjoyed the video.
I think, for anime specifically, watching the sub might be better for me because hearing the actors in a foreign language and having to read the dialogue might make the show more palatable than it might otherwise be? Like I just watched My Hero’s first season dubbed, and I had to drop it like it was hot, I don’t have much patience for the shonen style I guess. But I thought to myself, maybe if I watched the sub, the melodrama and the inner monologue stuff would have been more tolerable? Doesn’t mean I want to go back to the show, but I feel like hearing the same 7 American voice actors acting to lip flaps might heighten the problems I have with a show more than the Japanese voice actors who (due to my lack of knowledge of the language) I can’t really tell if I’ve ever heard before and I sort of tune out a bit cuz I’m reading. Idk if this makes sense, but it’s a theory
Oh yeah, originally I had a small section that ended up getting cut about how I think one big reason some English speakers think the Japanese voice performers "sound" better is because they don't actually know enough of the language to distinguish between a good or bad performance. Which is tricky, because I'm sure it does result in a better viewing experience, but it's also less authentic in that regard.
I usually watch dubs when I rewatch a series or if I watch it with someone else
Nah dude, Raw all the way
Jokes aside, dubs will always feel unnatural to me regardless of the language. I even prefer Cowboy Bebop slightly more in Japanese. I think this stems from who writes the original dialogue for the show. For example if a native Japanese-speaker writes it, then they are likely to introduce many words and expressions that might sound very natural in Japanese but not in any other language. The same occurs with native English-speakers in American or British shows. So when you dub it in a different language, it often doesn't sound like real people talking. In my opinion, the ideal English dub is like an abridged series without the comedy. You leave the story and characters intact but you write the dialogue from square one in English. Of course, this sacrifices authenticity but it will at least sound natural. Sorry for the paragraph, I always wanted to express this idea but none of my friends care about this lol
007MrYang I think the steins gate dub kinda does this? At least with the “nerd” references.
First of all, I don't care about the minor differences in the audio. I didn't notice the echo of their voices in the room, and that is a minor, virtually insignificant, gripe. It's like that clip from Dr. Stone where they were talking about the texture of the cotton candy. It only had value when they mentioned that it matters when making gold wire, which would use the same machine. You mentioned having a condition affecting your sight. Well, I have Asperger's. For me, the bandwidth my brain is capable of allotting to a task is limited. This is very useful when distracting from pain. If I focus on the cold air from a fan or the sound of the fan, I'm eating up bandwidth that my brain cannot use to process the pain/discomfort. As such, that pain/discomfort fades.
When watching a show/movie, you can break up the aspects into different categories. The 'art' of the scene, the action taking place, the surrounding details that could impact the 'meat' of the scene, the emotion conveyed in their voices, and how their voices alter the effect (like sultry Revy vs crass Revy in Black Lagoon) all take up personal bandwidth. The echo of voices in the room isn't worth the fuzz on a peach!
Secondly, accessibility isn't the prime factor for Dub over Sub. I don't know what the Hell that has to even do with it. For me, it comes down to two points: Culture and Focus. Culture comes into play because certain lines have different cultural impacts. In My Hero Academia when Dark Shadow smote the Hell out of Moonfish, the sub said, "Don't beg, small fry!" The dub said, "You don't matter, insignificant bug!" The sub used a sort of deep and authoritative voice like an angry sensei; Japanese follows different stereotypes in anime based on the kind of character they want to convey. Stereotypes are culturally based and don't age or translate well. The dub used a harsh and villainous voice. That has a big difference in effect. In Black Lagoon, subbed Revy had a smoky and sultry voice while dubbed Revy had a harsh "street urchin" voice. Psychologically, that dubbed voice conveys a large chunk of her backstory by itself. Just hearing her voice when she's emotional tells you that her upbringing was far from refined, and she starved more than she ate. The sultry voice makes her sound like she comes from aristocracy or something. It doesn't fit. Not to mention that Japanese doesn't do accents well. Black Lagoon in dubbed feels so much more realistic.
Focus comes down to how easy it is to watch a scene. In subbed, you have to keep up with the subtitles while you may be missing key details that you should be keeping up with instead. You're literally trained to watch and listen from birth. So, your ears are meant to handle words. Watching in subbed throws off the paradigm that your mind has been trained to from infancy. The only benefits to subbed that I have found are little nuances like Kaku in One Piece yelling out "Gabeen" when Zoro insulted his appearance. "Gabeen" is a vocal insert to represent a dropped jaw. That conveys something valuable that dubbed might not be able to convey. Unless you're arguing censorship and progressive whiny-assery, dubbed trumps subbed so long as they do it well. It offends me that the dubbed Yu-Gi-Oh 5D's cut out the end of Kalin's duel with Lotton using the gunslinger card. That is unforgivable.
Youre the best pls come back
Hopefully some day, but glad you enjoy the videos I made.
Well its nice to see that there is atleast 1 exception to the rules, but that dosent change the fact that most of the time subs work better since they are closer to the original intend, if everyone could read and watch without worrying about accesability sub would always win, but i get that a lot of people need a dub and thats totaly ok.
Your hair really grew from 7 month ago
Yeah it does that, it really has a mind of it's own most days.
Thought you freaking out your eyes were bouncing everywhere
Thing is, you're a monolingual american who isn't fluent in Japanese then you can't even partake in this argument. Case closed.
I bet you all here also watched Dark on Netflix in its garbage English dub because of course you did. Now imagine somewhere in France or Italy people watching American movies dubbed in their local language saying that Italian dub is better. This is essentially the same as you and your silly English dubs. People outside the us don't watch anime dubbed. You're the minority actually. Especially considering that the us is a puny mere 4% of world population. And let's be honest most people watch dubs just because of their sheer ignorance. In japan the only thing that ever gets dubbed are the Disney and other similar animated films simply because of all the toddlers old who go see these movies and are to young to even read.
Who hurt you? You sound like an anime dub beat you up and stole your lunch money every day in grade school.
After hearing shinji screaming in evangelion, i prefer sub over dub.
Sam D lol sub shinji screams well
I think the dub and sub for eva are incredible and i mean the adv dub not the Netflix dub which is awful