Does Indian Matchmaking Whitewash Arranged Marriage?
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- Kimberly is joined by Faroz, Kainaz, and Geeta to have a conversation about if the Netflix series Indian Matchmaking fairly represented the colorism, casteism, and fatphobia that undergirds the system of arranged marriage.
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You should have brought a girl with successful arranged match to be really diverse.
Subscribed!!!
Probably your mic picking up interference like wifi. I had a Rode mic do the same thing sucks since it cost $100 and didn't start right away. But a known problem if you look at reviews.
What happened to the other channel. I miss the old videos
one inaccurate thing here. Indian caste system is and was way worse than even european racism. It's based on skin tone. These girls aren't being honest. Read some books and see evidence. Before british reign it was already that bad.
Great video! I wish there was a dark skinned South Indian on the panel tho
@@sawsanmohammed1513and Malu perspective
Yeessss, first impression
Right. On the show all of them wanted their female match to be “tall and fair”. Would have like to hear a dark skin Indian woman perspective on that and is that a deal breaker when dating in Indian culture (??)
Same!
AmandaShuNN81 the preference for tall women seems more common within rich communities. (talking from my own experience as a Nepali) height is actually less of an issue in arranged marriages than it is with American couples. i’ve definitely seen a decent percentage of relationships where the woman is a few inches taller, and other people/ society don’t have much to say about it (not the stigma i’ve noticed in America) the focus is on having similar heights between men and women (talking about heterosexual relationships obviously). though the woman being shorter is definitely preferred. now the push favoring lighter skin women (and men) is definitely prevalent. but it works similar to height disparities between the women and men. it is perfered for women to lighter or just as dark- though again if the woman is only a few foundation shades darker than the man that will still be fine. and again the pressures to be lighter are quite strong
I think we really need a part 2 that’s more inclusive to a dark-skinned south Asian woman from a lower caste
Same! The comments section is going off with lower-caste/Dark skined ppl from this diaspora. I would love to hear the difference in their perspective on the show!
bye girl 🤣 🤣 🤣 you have to be joking
Lower caste lol. That’s a big step to take.
Also someone who grew up in India. Also men. Also people who watch toxic white dating shows and are genuinely interested in seeing more diversity on screen.
I hope that happens
I am Guyanese 🇬🇾 (Indian & Black) even though the show was not perfect. It allowed me to see a beautiful Guyanese American girl on my screen for the first time and the show shed light on Guyana’s relationship to India. I am grateful for the representation but I was sad to see that Nedra ( the beautiful Guyanese America girl) seemed to have to apologize for being Guyanese. Thx for diving into this Kim!
She did and it was sad. She was gorgeous and smart and didn’t have the confidence of the other girls especially the lawyer with a bad personality.
I haven’t watched the show but which episode is she on? I would love to actually see a Guyanese girl on screen. Our cultural identity is very nuanced and a lot of non-West Indians don’t even know we exist.
Suhanna De Silva she is on most of them from
Maybe the first or second episode
Do they do match making in Guyana? If so I am upset no Guyanese every told me 😤. I know they follow some Hindi customs but in general they don’t seem to relate very much with East Indians.
Jen M I agree, I wish they would have touched on her decision to go this route. I noticed she was really into Bollywood dancing so I wonder if somehow along the way the obsession of being with an “authentically Indian” as you said took over.
Caste is still a huge issue. The guests you had on did not do a good job discussing caste. Caste was a formal, birth based system before the British arrived in India. The caste system had 4 groups inside the caste system (the Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra) and one group outside the caste system - untouchables, who call themselves Dalits now. The caste system determined the types of work you could do and people were supposed to marry within their caste. Women were allowed to marry into a higher caste, but not into a lower caste. Dalits were considered to be "polluted" by the work they did, which often involved handling human waste, the dead, working with leather etc. They were forced to live outside the villages, weren't allowed to use the same water sources as the rest of the villages, were excluded from receiving education, not allowed to go to temples, Dalit women were and continue to be forced into prostitution. Dalit people continue to experience segregation, lynching and other forms of oppression.
The British did fossilize the caste system and used one regions version of it over the entire country, but it was oppressive a long time before the British came here. They changed it, they didn't create it. Caste system also is not like the class system, the oppression that people outside the class system face is much more comparable to racism.
The Dalit rights movement in India has actually had a lot of ties with Black rights movements in the US. A lot of leaders knew each other and wrote to each other. There was a Dalit Panther Party in India that was inspired by the Black Panther Party. Dalit women also experienced being left out of mainstream feminism in India, and the Dalit rights movement so they created Dalit feminism, similar to how Black feminism was created in the US.
Really appreciate your comment! Great information to think about. I would guess they didn't talk as much about this topic just because of the conversation naturally changing than intentionally but only they know.
@@WalrusJoy Caste isn't as relevant an issue in terms of discussing the show, so I get why they didnt go in dept about it. I just don't want people reading the comments to think that caste based discrimination started with the British. The system is thousands of years old. It obviously hasn't looked the same the whole time, and there's always been people who opposed it (Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, bhakti movements etc.) but people have been oppressed because of it.
@@Dhingra12 And I'm very glad you brought up that point in particular. I'm not Indian, actually I'm white, but I think there is this temptation to over simplfy and/or shift blame to other issues when dealing with things like this. Not just with India's caste system but also such as when they were talking about fair skin and kind of boiling it down to Colonial influence.
However, preference for fair skin existed in various cultures before widespread Colonialism/White cultural influence. Whether it was european royalty powdering their face to look whiter, Japanese geishas doing the same, Korean culture as well, it's not JUST Rasicm that creates this but Classism. People who have the wealth to stay inside and not do manual labor will be lighter skinned regardless of race, and regardless of contact with other races Classism seems to always be prevalent.
Western liberal culture likes to look at fair skin obsession in Kpop and say "this is whitewashing, they're trying to look like white people" but from what I've heard from Korean people themselves is they don't think this way at all. Maybe some people would agree but for the most part they don't want to look like white people, they want to look like fair Korean people because this has been a preference for centuries in Korea.
I can speak from experience that there is generally speaking bigoted attitudes and actions towards white people in Korea (obviously not every Korean). When I was living there I heard negative comments about my body because it's not like Korea peoples and men would date White women, but few would be willing to marry one. Somewhat similar to fetishizing ofAsian women in the west, they wanted to date you for your appearance and supposed "looseness" or "exoticness" and not for who you are as a person.
Korean are very ethnocentric in general they tend to think Korea is better than other countires and cultures (again not all of them) and so using a western way of thinking like that is probably just going to confuse or annoy them.
I understand why it's tempting to over simplify or shift blame on to issues that do exist and still could be a factor, but I also think it's important to keep in mind that Western culture doesn't get to decide the truth, and that simple answers aren't always the right ones.
I hope that was something interesting to think about and not just me rambling. I also hope I wasn't speaking for Korean people since I'm not Korean and that wasn't my intent.
@@WalrusJoy I am sorry but the op actually gave the wrong information about caste system . Caste system is actually class system with a different name . Your wealth and power decide your status in caste system . The op makes it seem like you surname(caste ) mattered but it never really mattered , your wealth and connections did .
Can’t wait to read up on this!!! Thanks a million for teaching me something new! 🙌🏾
I know I’m cherry picking (I really do like this video) but it would’ve been nice to see a dark skinned South Asian ( maybe a South Indian perspective too).
I feel like these are girls that do experience privilege within their own communities- especially Geetha completely glosses over how harmful the original caste system was. Even before the British ever stepped foot on our lands we were casteist as f.
I’m a South Indian (Syro Malabar Catholic) and I know like Faroz our community is like “we don’t do caste” and in our case that’s a HUGE lie. Caste 100% matters and this erasure and denial of the problem is so frustrating to see.
Anyways I just typed up my stream of consciousness so it’s probably quite disjointed.
also someone who lives in india under such circumstances. i feel like american indians donot represent people in india where suh discriminations and social customs are so much more intense
Uttam exactly! plus most indians abroad are a certain type of caste too.
Uttam there is this iranian guy sina rahmani with a podcast and talks about how these people with hyphenated nationalities are just 15 layers of mediocrity. and i feel like this goes in the paper.
I would have really liked to see that perspective as well. You are completely valid a dark skinned south Asian woman’s experience is a world of difference to a more fair skinned woman. And the caste system shouldn’t have been glossed over so easily. I never see women who are heavily impacted by this system really have a voice. Comming from a demographic that is often erased and unheard I really wish we could have seen their perspective too.
I'm south Indian and I agree with everything else, but I have to point out that Faroz is a Hyderabadi, and Hyderabad is a south Indian city. To dismiss Hyderabad as a north Indian enclave is to ignore its robust Deccan history, its centrality to Telangana, and have a tunnel vision of what it means to be south Indian.
What Geeta said here (as you pointed out) particularly annoyed me, because Kim is clearly treating her (an upper-caste north Indian Hindu) as an authority on caste because of her own cultural unfamiliarity with it, and is probably going to take her word for it as are several other American viewers. Ugh.
The entire series is very Hindi, Hindu and north Indian. Its the way India is trying to sell itself.
💯💯
Sima is a matchmaker in Mumbai, hence her customers are north indian
@@jenniferlaurene9699 Mumbai is not in Northern India and people in Mumbai/Maharashtra speak Marathi not Hindi
@@19sunheart96 bruh please 😂
@@jenniferlaurene9699 facts
NO NO NO THAT’S NOT WHAT CASTE IS AT ALL. You should’ve incorporated some Indian people living in India as well for this conversation. Most Indians abroad are from the higher castes anyway since they’re the only ones that get access to the opportunity to advance by emigration and the funds for doing so in the first place. Caste is not what they’re implying at all, it kinda starts the conversation but misses the main point completely.
^^^^^^^THIS!
ikr? i was so frustrated when they were talking about it with such obliviousness, disregarding the whole Bhakthi movement in 12th century and a lot of other social reformers throughout the ages. They definitely should have got someone from the dalit community there are a lot of well informed dalit feminist activists.
Mahesh Babu exactly they’re like so oblivious to caste!!
I was hoping you’d explain further. I am intrigued.
any reading you'd recommend for someone interested in learning more/clarifying what they got wrong?
This is really interesting, especially learning that there was only one south asian person involved in the development of the show. It really made me think about the commodification of culture worldwide. I knew a bit about the fairness issue in terms of colorism within India but not how it intertwined with caste.
Something I enjoy about how you interview is the way you know when to step back and allow the conversation to go in an organic direction without going too far off the rails.
Excited to see what else you got!
Jojo agreed. She allowed the guests the space and time to fully express their thoughts and ideas. This is rare these days, so I appreciate the conversation even more.
And there were no south Asian on this panel either so ...
@@nameless592 do u mean like someone from south asia vs diaspora ? The show was set in the US was it not so in my opinion it makes sense to have south asian diaspora versus south asians from the sub-continent
Respect the ladies for having this conversation but I feel like Faroz and Geeta danced around a little bit on the subject of Indo-carribeans and why they are not accepted in Indian culture. Number one reason I’ve seen is colorism and Indo-carribeans proximity to blackness. Like ladies no need to sugar coat it and that’s why it would have been nice to have a darker skinned Indian in the conversation. If the guyanese lady on the show was lighter skinned she would be "passable".
@bye girl two things can be true BUT If we were to disturbingly rank foreign Indians and how accepted they would be in India, aesthetics and their proximity to whiteness plays a huge role. All the men on the show wanted women with "fair" complexion aka light. Indo-Caribbeans (even though there are exceptions) tend to be Darker in complexion due to location and intermingling with Black culture in the Caribbean. So my point is still valid.
What are you talking about?
I found it very interesting how some of the American siblings on the show were with someone outside of their race like Aparna's sister who was married to a white man and I believe Nadia's sister who was married and had children with a black man. I think the show would benefit from discussing interracial relationships in the Indian community and how that plays a part in choosing to be in an arranged marriage.
It was Rupam's sister, not Nadia's
Yes! And maybe also too how that factors into the conversation of suitability /desirability of indo-diasporic communities.
I thought the scene with Rupam’s sister was appalling. I believe the subject of skin tone came up in that scene. Horrible that Rupam’s husband, nieces and nephews heard that conversation.
I havent watched the show so idk how this applies to them but as others have said indian families have a tough time with interracial marriages esp if the partner isnt white but there r often layers to it all. Eldest siblings particularly sons face the most pressure for the "best" wife since that is the family the parents will live with and because of that sometimes they will be more willing (not necessarily completely accepting tho lol) to let their other kids marry someone who to them is "not as desirable" which could be related to caste, race, heck even gender lmaooo but this would only apply to families that perhaps say they r closed off to the notion but as its brought up warm up to it families that r v strict will prolly not allow any of this
@@ranubo Which episode was that?
My family is from Kerala, but I was born and raised in the US. I think that there needs to be a big distinction between matchmaking and arranged marriages because they can sometimes be in conjunction but a lot of times they are not. My family is a part of the large Christian population of India, and at least where I am from they do not do "matchmaking." The marriages are more put together by families and word of mouth than by one person. The erasure of the many other cultures in India is not surprising, and most of the representation of Indians that Americans see are North Indians (Due to colorism). Darkskin Indian women are RARE to see in Indian and Western media, and they are often given the shortest stick. It is also important to realize that some Indian Americans do not go through many of these traditions. Although some of these ideas are often forced down our throats, many Indian Americans take their own hybrid path due to the colliding cultures. Because I am gay, most of the dating rules are bypassed because I am an anomaly to Indian culture. Thanks Kim for broadcasting the voices of more WOC because they are often left out the conversation.
People think that minorities are colorists just cuz they are racist or anti black, mostly Americans think they are the only ones that went tru slavery/ colonialism and ( some) are proudly ignorant of other cultures. The British influence is still being felt in india and many other countries.
Hey.... U are a true inspiration to me.
I'm a closted bi malayali and seeing you living being out and proud... Gives me hope to survive here everyday.
Welll, I know it's weird... Given I'm just talking from a UA-cam comments section.
But, Can I get to contact u on Instagram?
Well put!
ഗേ ആയ മലയാളിയോ 🙄🙄
In western countries Indians are all considered dark. But in India they are all obsessed with fair skin. And all of their film industries only focus on fair skinned Indians.
I would love if you ever do this again in the future is include a more diverse panel of SAs, especially actual Indo Caribbeans, dark skinned SAs etc!
I don’t think indo-Caribbean’s really count though, not in this aspect at least.
@@alid3688 an indo Caribbean was featured in the show and was one of the main characters/talking points post show though
I had to mention this. I disagree with what Geetha said about the origins of caste system...about how before the British colonisation it was determined by how enlightened an individual was; and that colonisation made it what it is today. This argument has been used to reduce the damage the caste system has done to majority of Indians for centuries, even before European colonisation. Caste as defined by Dr. Ambedkar has always been a 'self-enclosed class' and determined by birth. This system has adapted and taken new forms during colonial times and after independence but it has always been oppressive since its beginning. There is no point blaming white people people for this. In fact, as damaging colonialism was, a lot of low-caste communities actually benefitted from modern English education (example is Dr. Ambedkar) which helped them gain some amount of social mobility. This of course goes against the mainstream post-colonial caste-blind nationalistic narrative of the independence struggle, and takes the burden off from upper-caste Hindus from taking accountability for centuries of caste oppression by blaming the white people. For low-caste people, the upper-caste people have always been a bigger oppressor than white people. So this does not come back to the white people.
Excusing colonization or saying it had positive effects is white nationalist propaganda. If colonization didn’t exist, India would be more developed by now and the lower castes would’ve fought for their independence instead of fighting the British. The British also exploited that system and reinforced the superiority of light skin vs black. They also helped light skin be richer while keeping darker ones poor. They only cared about making money and dehumanized all the people they colonized so don’t invent morality to white supremacist. Indians and Africans were forced to learn white culture and languages because they weren’t allowed to develop their own. The caste system is a religious belief so Indians did create it but white people solidified whiteness as the norm around the world which didn’t help dark Indians
@@Lilyrose23 I was not absolving white people of the damage they did or saying that they were morally right. The history of caste system in India is complex. What I said about education is one of the things where this can be seen.The colonizers always implemented policies that benefited them and with the intension of getting an obedient workforce. A lot of times they didn't care about whether the workforce was upper-caste or lower caste. Lower-caste people took advantage of the situation and educated themselves to get better opportunities because modern English education was available. This was a new opportunity because traditional education was banned for the oppressed castes as they were considered impure for this. So if my ancestors and other oppressed casted benefited from modern education and has helped us gain social and economic mobility and access to spaces that previously denied to us. This was not an intended result of colonization...it was one of the consequences. Conversations about history of caste if often pitted against Indian nationalism and privileged-caste narratives of colonialism and independence struggle. People who talk about this history are often called anti-national and accused of siding with colonizers by the Hindutva right-wing. This is a very reductive way of looking at this problem. It takes away accountability from privileged castes and we get blamed for not looking at the bigger picture.
For anyone who wants to read up on some aspects of history of caste in India
www.magzter.com/article/News/The-Caravan/The-Harvest-Of-Casteism
@@kaluluk9719
I am Dalit (Pasi) and I agree with some of the things you say and disagree with some.
Cast certainly existed but the British did calcify it when it, for the first time in 4000 Years, created religious laws.
Genetic evidence does say the castes were mingling amongst each other from 1500BC to 110AD.
There is a difference between Jati and Varna system. Clubbing it under caste is again a British idea. And that makes it very evil.
There was mobility between Varnas or what people usually refer to as caste.
I mean history is littered with people move up and down in the caste system.
Varna is the division of society into 4 divisions, the priests, the warriors, the merchants and the serfs. Then there was my community, the outcaste. People have been jumping caste since millennia.
Jati, on the other hand, is a division of labour. A hereditary job that a family does. For example, a potters son will be a potter, perhaps it's easy to get an apprenticeship in the family.
These were two different ideas, but when the British came they mixed these (made religious laws), and hence became rigid, people got locked in the caste (Varna + Jati) they were born in.
I mean, my wife is Kayastha an upper-caste woman. Her caste history says the Kayastha were lower caste, they studied farsi in the Mughal courts and moved to a higher cast. And this is the 1700s.
Now you could say "takes the burden off from upper-caste Hindus from taking accountability for centuries of caste oppression" and I won't have a problem, but then some facts are facts.
I really dot think Caravan isn't the most unbiased magazine out there. They have an ideology and that is ok, but I prefer to make up my mind by reading all sides and studying for myself.
@@incubusk8r Yes...Caravan has a leftist and anti-caste stand.
I can't refute you on existence of social mobility between castes that far back...I don't think there is conclusive historical evidence but it is possible. And the British did governmentalise and rigidify caste. The point I was trying to make was that caste as an oppressive social hierarchy existed in pre-colonial times as well...its evident from works by Bhaki poets from those times.
thewire.in/caste/caste-history-postcolonial-studies
Me as an Afro-Trini eating my Roti and listening to the panel talking about Nadia 😳😅
This is my favorite comment 😂 #bachannal
Trinis represent!
I'm eating breadfruit oil down and callaloo
how these upper caste girls just glossed over caste. oooooof, and there is no caste among muslims, oooooof. so many bad faith arguments. (i’m muslim and pakistani and what y’all would say is “lower caste”
I love you, kim and love your opinions. u do great work. but these are ahistorical and casteist takes.
Interesting. It isn’t your job to do so but it would be great if you could explain in further depth caste system from your perspective.
agreed. for one, caste isn't a colour-stratified hierarchy nor is lower caste concentrated more in the South than North. this is a binarized and dishonest perspective that really annoys me as i'm a low caste/tribal and happen to be lighter skinned with lots of family who are darker and lighter than me... you know because south asians aren't ethnically static PARTICULARLY many low caste groups like those of my region of India who had the ability to roam and travel because they were low caste (caste restrictions made upper castes of my region unable to travel for fear of losing their caste - we were nomads, sometimes sailors, and didn't have a status to lose - and when peoples travel they make babies with other peoples. also colonial sexual violence happened too which low caste women have always faced the worst. we have been thru a lot.). it's kind of akin to saying that african americans' historical privilege can be determined by their skin colour which it CAN'T. there's colourism that comes with being darker, yes, there's privilege that comes with being lighter, yes -- but there are plenty of dark skinned Tamils who are Brahmin and intensely casteist and let's not pretend we don't know that!!! North and South isn't really a factor there! also YES OF COURSE MUSLIMS CONSIDER CASTE TOO. i am muslim as well! caste absolutely matters, especially when you are one of those who has the misfortune of trying to get married and everybody knows what you ARE. i've gone thru that. it's not fun. also how is this girl geeta trying to say that caste wasn't originally dependent on your family and it only BECAME like that?????? I've read all the ancient texts, they're really not vague at all regarding what caste is about!!! getting really tired of yuppie desis positioning themselves to discuss caste when they clearly couldn't care less :/
Red Corridor sis, UA-cam keeps deleting my comment😭
Red Corridor i agree with everything. but the point tamils is sometimes in different parts of SA how history plays makes for a lot of funny ways of performing caste. i’m thinking of pathans who are grossly casteist but confuse u with words like pathan and pashtun and “tribalism” and all of this nonsense about islam. when i know my people in that part of the country live as nomadic herders.
Red Corridor thanks for this. I have a question. Based on what you’ve said versus what was stated in the video, the caste system in SA has always existed in its current form even prior to British colonial rule? And basically the British saw this and capitalised off of it to their benefit. Is this correct?
What happened with Ankita is a prime example of fatphobia. She was, imo, the prettiest girl on that entire show yet Sima really tried to play her! Calling her "not photogenic" - GIRL, WHERE???
This is such a great conversation. These ladies did a wonderful job 🙌🏾 I really appreciate this representation and discourse.
My experience as darker skin and not thin Indian woman has definitively been extremely tiresome. I chose to opt out of the system by dating men outside my race almost subconsciously. I didn’t want to be judged so harshly by someone that was supposed to love me.
This show is extremely popular among my well off friends in India. It’s interesting to note that Netflix is the most expensive streaming platform and so it definitely does not cater to the masses here. The show was made for Indian Netflix subscribers, Americans reality television enthusiasts and the NRI community.
The ladies on the panel laid out the criticisms of the show wonderfully. But there are some pros to the show. Other than the standard reality television staging the show does a very accurate job portraying Indians and nri Americans almost as if there was no camera around.
These people are entirely unaware how they come across because so much of their behavior is normalized.
Nah youa re just as bad as them. We are all part of the problems. You have people you would never date, (maybe a certain uglyiness or even size or money or whatever) you will tell yourself you aren't attracted to them but the honest truth is we all judge others. I personally don't like fat girls, i only date skinny girls, i am just honest with muyself. The indian coimmunity didn't do anything wrong for not finding you the ideal as you also don't find other people ideal.
@misuzu9254 As i said it was subconscious I never really considered race because I was young and just saw everyone as people.
One of the cast members stated that she didn’t want anyone too dark. I was like wow!
Same she was like I want someone fair the self hate is real because she's brown skin herself
My favorite part was when Faroz said she wants to get married to please her parents, and Kim told her she doesn’t think that’s wrong. That moment encapsulated for me why I like and respect Kim so much, because she can understand and appreciate someone else’s opinion without judging them and labeling them as “wrong”. That’s my type of discussion!
“It always comes back to the white people.” “I mean, we’re speaking their language.” THAT PART!
That part!
That part!!!!
Yup. Truth hurts.
That part!!!!!
More like speaking the British language, considering “white” people around the world have various languages.
The crazy thing is, in french Netflix translate fair with beautiful. I watch it part in English part in french to show it to my mom who don’t understand English fluently. Your video is really great. Keep up the good work !
No wonder you have another Channel. You seem really professional.
One thing I do have to mention is that colorism existed before the west dominated the world. In China, Central America and many spots in southeast asia, whiter skin was seen as more attractive because it meant you were wealthier... aka, didn't have to work in the fields.
It was the same in Victorian England.
I read online that Sima's rate could be anywhere between 2 and 5 grand. But im not sure. Also, there's a documentary on Netflix called Love, Sex and Marriage Around the World and there is an episode filmed in Dehli, and they talk about the LGBTQ+ experience as well as how more progressive people in India view arranged marriage and stuff. The entire docu series is good but that episode in particular is pretty interesting
You're right, I read that too.
I totally relate to Faroz, marriage is not something I want but it's also not something I don't want, my mother wants me to get married, my father doesn't voice his opinion but they are both very traditional. I see myself getting married and starting a family to make them proud of me and I don't think that's a bad thing.
My boyfriend is from southern India and we had friends also from the south over and we only managed 5 minutes into the show before they lost their minds. They were yelling at the TV like "this isn't what it was like for us AT ALL" and they were arranged. Before my boyfriend told his parents about me, they were sending him matches... His sister was arranged and her experience wasn't like that either. They initially thought it would be a good way for me to learn about that aspect of their culture so they were frustrated and disappointed. I'm white so am by no means an expert but incorporating Indians currently living in India, from different castes and from different regions would have been helpful to get varying perspectives on the show. We have friends from various castes and regions and they all have such diverse perspectives. Just an idea if there is a part 2.
Also, not sure if you've done a video on it... but 90 Day Fiance is another show I'd be interested to hear a panel about especially 90 Day Fiance: The Other Way, or maybe just reality TV involving other countries and cultures in general... it just irks me how things are framed in those shows. I get they're made to entertain but I feel they go over the line. I dunno, I'm with an immigrant so that has given me a totally different perspective. I'm just conflicted on that one. Would be interesting to hear others' thoughts should that interest you!!
@@COLOURzen our friend was ANGRY, he is never like that... he is super laid back but he was so angry. His wife was laughing at him yelling at our TV.
I felt like Aparna changed as a person before our eyes on the show. She seemed scared of love to me.
It got too real. Girlfriend had some real cute and accomplished men picked for her.
Why is education such a big tool to measure someone's intellect? Like there are people out here who are whole doctors and can't figure out how to operate a washer.
If you're a well off doctor, then you won't need to know. You'll find someone who does.
In western society, money and status are given to those who aren't on the front line, but who strategize and control others.
Is operating a washer more of a measure of intellect than practicing medicine? Weird logic.
@@coconutwater4531 the idea is operating a washer can be a better measure in terms of being able to figure things out. There are highly educated people out there who succeeded because they were suited to the education system (and might have had opportunities others didn't have), not necessarily because they are smarter than your average person. That's how you get doctors who are clueless and Einsteins who failed math class.
Well top surgeons and doctors don’t have to wash their clothes now do they? They have enough money to hire the help. Stay in school/college 😘😉
@@alphabettical1 Einstein never failed math. His grades are available online.
Faroz's comment about cycles of violence for Indian women really resonated with me. I have seen that happen to my mom. My grandma was treated very poorly by her in laws and she tried to do the same to my mom. She could never control her life so now at 70 she tries to control her sons' lives and their families' lives.
Kainaz is pretty spot-on about the pettiness of others judging how a couple would look in photos.
I've heard plenty of aunties talk about how there should be a minimum 4-5 year age gap between couples because 'the girl ages fast', and God forbid she looks older than her husband.
This show is very north-indian centric, and so was this episode to be honest, just in the people that they chose (north indians and all women)
Kimberly this was a phenomenal video! It really challenged me to critically think about the narratives the series was pushing. I'd love it if you and/or these women did some sort of love q&a session because this discussion prompted so many more questions in my mind. Thank you for this video!
My family is from Guyana. I have many Indian family members and in fact, the Indian community is the majority. We have always known that West Indians were different from East Indian. I find it sad to see that reaching back to their roots in India is difficult.
GIRL!!! THIS IS A DEEP CONVERSATION, U SHOULD HEAR THE STORIES FROM NIGERIA
it would be NA WAOOOO !
Exactly!!!!!!! I would love for this discussions to happen.
I was matchmade too and we've been together for years and I understand that this is not always the case
Thissss
Theres matchmaking in Nigeria ?
Indian matchmaker doesnt white wash, Indian culture white washes.
This show was created for Netflix India, and a lot of people all over the world are seeing it. Many things need more explanation and exposure to the Indian culture before things make sense. It's frustrating to me, because I would love to speak on it - as a darker skinned southern Indian woman who lived in both America and India. I have close ties to friends and family in India. I find Geeta's perspective true for some people but it's very unfair of her to paint 1/7th of the world's population in the same way. There's multiple religions, families, languages, cultures. Things aren't so black and white. Also, it made me have second hand cringe that as someone who is fair say that yes, it's a problem if you're not fair. Acknowledge the privilege you have. At least Faroz did. I really appreciated that.
Hi from random Mongolian looking North East Indian 🙋🏻🙋🏻🙋🏻
I felt like Geeta straight up lied about the caste system or has been lied to. Either way, I would prefer Kim speak to a historian, anthropologist, sociologist and expert in Indian society instead of young uninformed people.
It was pretty heartbreaking to hear the matchmaker in this show categorize the matches beauty by saying "Fair skin." I heard fair skin so many times that I started to wonder if they were going to have any darker skin Indian women being presented in the matches. By the end of the show I was shocked I had no clue that darker skin Indian women were basically put in a lower class, and even presented as if they don't have the opportunity of being placed in a match. If I wasn't just a little bit cultured I would have easily thought that dark skin Indian women were rare to find in India. They weren't shown at all in the show.
bye girl Wow, disappointing, they’re so beautiful.
I agree. I did love that they mentioned this rather than omit it out. I heard a interview of the creator and she mentioned that they could've easily omitted the triggering verbiage like "fair skinned" "this caste, that caste" but they decided to keep it in there because thats the reality. We as a society (not just south Asian) but as an entire society are extremely euro centric. There are entire studies on how black women's desirability on dating websites.
This was a fascinating conversation and timely. I just binged this show yesterday and was looking for reviews. I love that you brought in Indian people to help put the show in context.
i got married at 21 in a non arranged marriage and there were defintiley still things i didnt know about marriage and about myself that i honestly think would have just been exaserbated in an arranged marriage. i liked the fact that this series showed arranged marriage in a positive light because i think the goal was to show that indian culture isnt oppressive or 'backward' as some may believe it to be, but like you all said that doesn't mean that negative things don't exist. but hopefully this opens the door for deeper shows in the future
God these women were wonderful! I definitely hope to see more of them!
So well spoken!
Love that you brought Indians to the table! We can get real perspective of the show.
So excited to watch! Binged 'Indian Matchmaking.' I'm gonna watch this and the doc 'A Suitable Girl' to get a short overview on arranged marriage in India.
I found it really interesting that Faroz considers herself to be “pretty fair”/light skinned” because on my screen she looked to be the same complexion as Geeta. Perhaps it was the lighting or just her perception of light skinned is from her cultural perspective? But she looked Brown to me.
she is light for us. although, i am kainaz's shade i have family members that would be kim's and even darker than that. she is light, we would consider all of them light.
If you look at the indian diaspora she would be considered lightskin, esp compared to more southern people. Take a look at sri lankan tamils and you will see how large the range of tones can be.
south asian skin colors range in all groups. it's just social engineering geared to maintain hierarchies (i.e caste, tribe and the like) that only shows you light ppl. i say, they are light because the dark women in our countries have to do all this dancing around, calling themselves of "dusky" complexion, how their color is the sun's fault and it's summer etc.
i am not trying to take/minimize anyone's claim that they experienced colorism. when i was young my mother passed me lightening creams and even now speaks about how she is actually lighter. but my life still different from a dark-skinned girl (particularly from an oppressed community)
@@sabsekhush where are you from because she wouldn't be considered light in my family. she looks to be more medium.
I feel like the main purpose of the show was to remove a lot of the stigma that it associated with arranged marriage.
A lot of people from outside the culture think that people are forced to get married, or only meet once and then get married and have an unhappy marriage. I think this is why they focused on showing the long 'happy' relationships to get rid of the negative stigma
The show did hint at some of the negative points, like some of the parents that had divorces, like the pushy mum that wanted marriage at all costs, how job status controls how 'desirable' you are, the hardship of a divorcee etc. But in order to maintain the good image of an arranged marriage they didn't go in depth. Overall I think they did a good job though (apart from not talking about the cast system)
This. I felt at every point the argument that arranged marriage is NOT forced was reinforced. And if they showcased more negatives especially Akshay's pushy mom then that argument would be diluted.
Geeta is so pretty!❤🙂She reminds me of a classmate I had in the 90's, her name was Preet.
As a non-Indian, I loved some of the context that this discussion provided for the show... I thought it was fascinating and left me with a lot of interesting questions/topics for me to keep exploring.
I disagree that it was Hindu specific, there was also the Sikh father with the divorcee daughter .....
Yeah whatever happened to her? She seemed so sad.
They should have had me in the panel. All these North Indian girls are not offering the complete picture. Next time try to bring in a Tamil origin South Indian girl. Like Mindy kaling to get the complete picture. Valiant effort. Much appreciated. I feel sorry for the Guyanese girl, she’ll be accepted in south India in our Tamil community. We are a more open society. Plus we are mostly black so we know what it feels to be treated like outsiders in India.
Thank you for the video! I appreciate that you had Indian women from diverse backgrounds. So many westerners are ignorant to the ethnic, religious and linguistic diversity in India.
bye girl that’s true.
I loved this conversation so much. I've always been curious about south Asian culture. This really warmed my heart to see beautiful, educated women come together. Keep up the good work❤
I'd love to see you delve deeper into casteism not just in India but also in the US.
Am sorry, the definition of the caste system is very diluted here. I am commenting in the first few minutes of the video. I really am dying to talk about the caste system. Caste system, is a very hard rigid system of heirarchy. And the social norms strictly dictate occupations, marriage partnering and rituals to each community in the caste system. There are religious books that cite to this. It is not just enlightenment. It is particularly designed to exploit and profit off of the backs of people who belong to the oppressed castes. It is a very very big conversion. I want the world to see this. Cause it is a meticulous system that represents everything that could be wrong with our worst human tendencies.
Great discussion!! I love the show because it was a conversation starter. Ankita was my favourite on the show. I appreciated her defiance, even though you can tell the constant attacks on her appearance and desirability, as a self-sufficient, intelligent woman really did get to her, particularly the former. I'm black but as someone who lives in the UK, where there is a large South Asian community, I got most of the references etc. Good q though, who was it for? I'll be tuning into season 2. They need a wine down type thing after each season or episode to unpack certain things.
I'M SO GRATEFUL YOU ARE COVERING THIS TOPIC! yes! lets go there and talk about it!
I'm happy to hear that there are different matchmakers available for those in the LGBTQIA+ community. That was a question that kept popping into my mind throughout the series... what about people who aren't straight.
This was such a beautiful, thought-provoking and life-affirming conversation. The statement that struck me so deeply is the notion that a “good” woman is expected to be/do everything, and then summarily asked to let go of all of her hard work, achievements, and character development for the sake of marriage. That’s a conundrum that I’ve faced as a Black woman, and that many of my friends of various cultural backgrounds have grappled with from their families and communities. Oh the patriarchy.
Great video! I found you from For Harriet, looking forward to content from this channel as well. I also am a Black woman who binged this show and, aside from the colorism, I took it in pretty uncritically, but also had my eyes opened when I started looking up reviews my people of Indian descent. This was a great conversation.
Ladies! Loved this talk.
Kainaz just proved there is love even after 30.
Very interesting conversation. However the colorism in India predates Western supremacy. The same goes for all of Asia.
Nah it's easier to blame the white people 😅
The same matchmaker, Sima, from the Netflix special already had a documentary that featured her and her daughter on Prime. It's called "A Suitable Girl". It's more in-depth than the Netflix doc since it only features three girls' journeys with matchmaking.
I watched that show, and I must say it was entertaining. But I was disturbed about how much appearance like skin color, slim or fat, had to do with if a man even wanted to meet you as a woman. They had all these awesome and educated women, women with businesses. But everyone was more about how they looked as women. The lady with the fashion business was beautiful but the way she spoke about herself was like she wasn't. She was so pretty.
But that goes for women everywhere. Men are visually oriented and depending on the culture, some physical attributes are desired more than others.
Women's educational, professional and business achievements aren't what initially attracts a man to a woman.
@@dumfriesspearhead7398 Women aren't visually oriented? The wife will be treated as a status symbol, a trophy, that is likely the main reason. They want to impress other people and be more socially accepted/mobile.
@@myermayhem2520 Arranged marriages play to traditional gender roles and so women are seen as wanting a good provider and yes, the wife is seen as a status symbol and social acceptability is key.
That was such a great debate, thank you girls. Have you seen the Netflix documentary called "A suitable girl" you should watch that too, its about Indian woman getting married but much less classism than Indian Matchmaking,
But in all honesty, Seema aunty doesn’t deserve the hate - its our fault.
She’s just providing a service we as Indians ask for and making money off it because that is her livelihood!
I haven’t watched the Netflix show but still really enjoyed this conversation.
I liiiiive for your pop culture vids so I'm already living for this channel. HERE FOR IT.
I really wish there was a south Indian on this panel. Idk if other south Indians experienced this or if its just malus but we have the opposite perspective when it comes to weight. Like, a little miss thickums is considered more attractive than someone who is slim.
Hii, Im mallu american and i think no matter what no one wins the weight game. Some people say you are too thin and others say you are too thick. I never seem to hear one consensus since aunties and anyone talking about someone elses weight can never make up their mind.
@@fiocherry yeah they can never make up their mind lol. They say they want you to look "healthy" but how do you "look healthy". I think it was my mom who I was having this conversation with, I asked her why having weight on was so important, she told me it's because ppl who are skinny it means that they can't afford to eat (basically that they're poor) whereas ppl who are heavier means they can afford to eat and them some (that they're rich), so to her at least, skinny < heavy. Isn't it crazy how they see the world??!!
I really enjoyed this conversation. I've been following south asian culture for years and I'm really passionate about it. I can totally see where Kimberly is coming from. When I started investing in learning about it, I was romanticising a lot of it (thank you Bollywood!). As the year went by, I've noticed the cracks and the similarities with African culture (I'm from Senegal). So it's nice to create a conversation around it, questioning challenging cultures and traditions.
I'm looking forward to seeing what's coming on this channel. I really like this format of inviting people to discuss different topics wether is pop culture or social issue on the For Harriet channel. I find you very engaging all alone but sometimes it's nice to have someone or multiple people joining the conversation.
Just wondering if you watch Zee World, from Nigeria
@@Aasmaa07 no I live in Switzerland
@@78mammiie ok, thanks
Great! Great! GREAT!!! Interviews. Faroz, Kainaz & Geeta were awesome. So open and honest, with varied opinions! 🖤🤎❤🧡💛🤍
the indo-caribbean conversation was not it!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and letting people like me understand Indian culture a little bit more and overall about different perspectives!
Great conversation ladies. I love the diasporas of any nationalities most of us aren’t necessarily stuck in the traditions of where ever we came from or our roots.
I love open-minded people from whatever parts of the world.
*** I’m African 🇳🇬 and we have a bit similarities with Indians***
P.S.. Y’all should watch Sudani From Nigeria on Netflix. Good stuff.
Thanks ladies!❤️
Imma need Faroz to start a UA-cam channel!
Kimberly did that as a narrator! Kimberly I applaud you 💜
Kimberly, this episode was so brilliant and entertaining. Thank you for doing it.
This was cool! I swear I was thinking about this very topic recently and wanted to learn more from the people in those communities
Did no one watch "WHAT THE LOVE" on Netflix?? It's an Indian dating show. It's sooooo good!!!!!
Oh where's our dark skinned cool south Indian?
I appreciate this discussion especially when western people mostly complain about and focus on racism. Growing up in parts of the world where cultural tribal and ethnic differences play a major role, there are more complexities with the "isms" you have to deal with.
this was such a great video! great work Kimberly. Look forward to what you put out next!
aparna was annoying, and just came off so negative, omg. her entire vibe just completely......just woah.
yeah, i completely disagree about it just being a bad edit. Like no one can falsely edit ole girl telling someone "Why would you need to relax for 10 days? Id think someone is wrong with you" or "Oh, you enjoy you job being a lawyer? That's weird". She was such a rude and negative person.....just those unnecessary statements alone would be enough for me to be turned off.
@@jasminemackey8953 Right! like literally EVERYTHING and ANYTHING someone said to her she downplayed and/or dismissed it. came off as a pessimist and just an all around asshole. i rolled my eyes EVERYTIME she went on a date, she was negative about the dates and person before it started.
no, she was just a toxic person. pssh "edit" my ass.
This was a very nuanced and intelligent conversation. Kudos.
I too watched this show because I’m very aware of it and I wanted to hear people’s personal experience with it I always thought ok this is problematic but it’s nice to hear the ladies say no this wax triggering! And another thing the the word fair was used a a lot and I’d love to hear more about the colorism India faces
This reminds me of how the grapevine is doing their show quarantine style congratulations on the new channel I’m sure it will reach people
Loved this conversation!! We need more inter-communal dialogues like this!
Loved this panel! Just wished you were able to have someone from the Caribbean or South America for their input.
This.Is.My.Show!! Lol, all the dark skin shadiness made me as a dark skin black chick salty still, I really enjoyed that show. The best dating show I've seen. Guys, it's not meant to be deep and philosophical. It's literally a dating show
Colorism is HUGE in Asia.
Kainaz had similar reactions to me. A lot of people still view arranged marriage as you just show up to marry someone your parents picked and it's not accurate. As a first introduction into this for a wider audience, it was a honest first exposure to the process. Yes, it glossed over caste, colorism, but it strikes me as naive that they would have addressed it. It was a show created for entertainment. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just thinking that I didn't really expect them to address it.
Ladies, thank you for this eye-opening conversation! I learned so much.
This was SO interesting! Kainaz was so Insightful! Loved all the viewpoints!
In cities, especially which have a lot of young population who are working especially in the IT sector, love marriages are pretty common because they meet someone in a professional setting. And parents (not all of them) now are usually accepting because thoughts are changing and evolving. But in rural areas it is still a big deal. Also some people are willing to overlook caste, but inter religion marriages is still a big deal.
I loved the show. Obsessed is more like it. I knew nothing about the matchmaking process but knew some of Indian history. I really appreciate this discussion to hear directly from South Asian women. Great insights. I disliked Aparna and her mother, but after this interview, I realized they made her the villain and definitely edited her more harshly than the men.
When I was watching the show I said how much do she charge? You can tell the people on the show have money and the match maker too. Just by their homes alone lol...One is a lawyer another sales jewelry (diamonds) and it’s a family business. I don’t think match making is cheap. I mean it can be affordable but I think it can get pricey too. Like Kainaz said... I wish that they went into how much it cost and the types of package deals there are.
frankly in my opinion our entire indian society revolves around marraige and the actual marraige isnt even about finding a loving partner most of the the times but about raising one family's social status....this is the exact reason why there are 5 day big fat indian weddings because families take loans from the banks to declare their social status to the world to look at them and say look how wealthy we are....and parents force their child to get good education or how else will any boy want to marry you or for boys to get good high paying jobs or how else a family will give their girl to your low salary ass.....in our society everything and i mean everything gets connected to marraige....and this shit puts pressure on both men and women
Kim, you introduce me to so many topics that I would never know without following you. Thank so much for showing me international cultures! ❤
This conversation was sooo good!!! And I had no idea about the show, until you mentioned it a couple weeks ago. Thank you ladies!!
Yasssss!!!! Thank you for making this video!
It’s a little oversimplification to say that caste is skin color. Also, skin tones range from all over the country. Initial ancestral trail genetics had people with lighter skin in the north and darker in the south but India doesn’t really look like that for a while.
Colorism is an issue and it’s not entirely white supremacy but WS reinforced it.
As a black man, I think this whole process about colorism is hateful and insulting.
I appreciated this discussion a lot, especially hearing from Faroz. Hearing from openly feminist south asian women, especially one that is Muslim like me, was amazing, and hearing Faroz's perspective on arranged marriage, along with Geeta's, really shifted my perspective a little. I struggle a lot with coming to terms with the dichotomy between the inherent misogyny tied to our marriage culture and how it differs with the pretty leftist views I hold. Sometimes, it feels like I should be violently against it - and I am, in theory, but I appreciated hearing the very real perspective that in South Asian culture, we just sometimes do things that our parents expect us to do, even if it goes against our better judgement. I'm still sad that this is a reality, and I can only hope I find a solution that makes both me and my parents happy, but just hearing feminist women also voice their struggle/opinion on the matter made me feel so represented.
I appreciate the effort put into this show! I know it's not by any means perfect, but for having 3 guests on, I'm glad all 3 represented fairly different backgrounds.