There have been some comments regarding how Ken levels his reticle for NRL22. At the end of the day, it is going on a purpose-built rifle for NRL22 competitions where they have a typical range of 15-100 yards, on rare occasions they can have targets out to 200. Anyone with precision rifle competition experience can tell you that you are constantly shooting in compromised positions, so there are in fact shooters who cant their reticles slightly because it allows them to shoot consistently. Consistency is accuracy. The point is that if you perfectly level your reticle to your rifle then when you shoulder the rifle, the rifle slightly cants, that is not helping you because you are muscling it back into place affecting your natural point of aim. Ideally, you would have stock or chassis fit your body and the scope reticle (not the scope itself, but the reticle) would be in perfect alignment to gravity as well as the top of the receiver in relation to the bore of the rifle, but that is rarely the case.
Optimal gun balance point for prs shooting is actually a few inches forward of the barricade stop. The problem with leveling a reticle to what you see level is that in most prs/nrl comps you have at least one position where you need to shoot support side. Now if you level the reticle to your shooting position, it will be way off shooting support side.
You don't want to cant your rifle - ever. Square the scope to the rifle and figure out what you are doing wrong, or what needs to be changed on the stock to fit you. The scope (or open sights) will not track like that over any varying distances - your dope will never be on target. Square and plumb are always set to gravity..... Here is the worst part of it in being able to shoot accurately - sight alinement is the most critical part of being able to hit where you are aiming at. Your are not canting the rifle - you are canting the sighting device on the rifle; in this case a scope. I swear - you "Scope Dopes" need to learn how to shoot with open sights first. All you are doing is making the sights (scope) crooked. How well do you think the rifle will shoot with a crooked sighting system on it?
Hello, all over... a nice build, but I was surprise to hear you that the scope does not need to be leveled with the gun platform... which is WRONG. It may not show a difference in a short range .22 rim rifle... true, but to say that is applicable to long range shooting is a misleading (probably not caused by ignorance... but by the missing knowledge)
Umm if you’re not going to true the action to the scope and instead handicap it to how you view through the scope to perceived level then what good is the bubble level you added lol.. to each their own way of what works for them but adding a level to something you’re saying won’t be level makes zero sense..
I highly recommend a good levelling kit and a very good setup. You can level the scope without one but it HAS TO BE LEVEL WITH YOUR GUN AND NOT YOUR POINT OF AIM or view. Mounting and levelling the scope is always the most Tedious part of setting up a precision rifle even with a good levelling kit there is still the chance of getting it wrong although its minimized. Without the levelling kit at extreme but reasonable long ranges in wind less conditions even when i think that ive carefully done things right i can see the bullet veer off the crosshairs enough that it bothers me since i tend to be nit picky... a few cm or Mm off is ok for hunting or the casual prs Style Shooting but if your a bench shooter its desired that everything is just right. I have a couple of fixed mount high quality scopes that i can compare it to. Everytime i mount them on the Gun and try to use my natural way of holding the rifle they appear ever so slightly CAnted depending on how you hold the rifle or place your head behind the scope and Gun but testing it at long ranges in good windless conditions you could see that the points of impact Stays true to the vertical points of the Cross hair. I also use them to make sure that the rifle is good and as a comparison to make sure that the non fixed mount scope setup is properly aligned. Good quality scope, high quality mounts that need no lapping, proper way of applying torque and method to the rings and making sure the scope is level to the rifle is what i would recommend. 😁
Totally understand what your saying and agree in most cases. But if your gun doesn’t sit correctly in your shoulder it’s pointless. Better just to get in to your comfortable natural shooting position and level the scope with a permanently fixed scope level that way your always in your natural shooting position but the scope remains level and plumb. 👍
Similar thing happens when I see people struggling to shoot High rib shotguns they can’t shoot them because they either cant the gun or gun fit and cast on the stock is wrong for them . 👍
My take on levelling scope, is to hang a plumb bob 25 to 30 meters away in the back yard set myself up behind my CZ at my usual hold then move the crosshair to the sting line of the plumb bob to get close as perfect to vertical level, this system has never failed me on various caliber rifles from .22 unto 303. Just my 2 bobs worth.
I understand your theory of not leveling the scope to the action because it appears unlevel to the eye but then you mounted a level to the scope which is not consistent with the reticle that you "leveled" to your eye. Oh and nobody should be leveling a scope body, level your crosshairs (plumb line or flashlight method)
NRL is not for me! I have looked at 35/45 video reviews of the 22-caliber ammunition. I have seen that even if you have an excellent rifle, you have to have the correct ammunition. The testing of different 22-caliber ammunition staying with the same lot number to receive the accuracy that you are after. So, for me, I started with something cheap in cost $400 RAR, and a cheap box of ammo CCI/SV cost $4.65. Range day, I did not look for anything good from a $400 rifle, well, it surprised me at @50 yards five shots.55”. For the $400 gun, I mounted an $800 Vortex PST 5-25x. I shall what may happen from here? Have fun shooting.
Question, If your optic is not square with your rifle, how do you maintain accuracy out to distances, especially with the drop of the .22lr cartridge? If your reticle is not directly up and down to the bore, as you dial up, you would technically be dialing up and to the right or left depending on if your optic was canted to the left or right. Do you compensate for the amount of cant through your windage? Seems to me that would be very difficult to do, especially if there is wind involved.
There are many precision shooters who purposely cant their rifle slightly, but they run a level, as long as the reticle is level, the scope is tracking correctly. It has to do with how the rifle fits your body and your natural point of aim. To put it another way, if your reticle is perfectly level on the rifle and when you shoulder it, your body cants the rifle and reticle, now you have a problem.
What he has done here is shift what is called Zero Offset. He has introduced a lateral offset, where a perfectly level scope would not have any. Both would still have the same vertical offset / height over bore, however. The implications of this vary by distance, not drop characteristics. With a .22lr the importance of a good wind call is 10-20x more important as far as horizontal displacement is concerned, within NRL22 distances. For a discipline like ELR what he did would be a big issue, as it makes the job a heck of a lot tougher, in a game of angles over a mile.
Wondering about your accuracy? I think you said you put a CZ MTR barrel in it. And what ammo does it like? I will do almost the same as what you have done here. I have a 457 Varmint and will put it in the Bravo chassis and swap out the stock barrel for a 20" MTR barrel. I will likely just put a YoDave spring in it to lighten the pull weight instead of the Timney trigger.
He leveled for NRL22. At the end of the day, it is going on a purpose-built rifle for NRL22 competitions where they have a typical range of 15-100 yards, on rare occasions they can have targets out to 200. Anyone with precision rifle competition experience will say that you are constantly shooting in compromised positions, so there are in fact shooters who cant their reticles slightly because it allows them to shoot consistently. Consistency is accuracy. The point is that if you perfectly level your reticle to your rifle then when you shoulder the rifle, the rifle slightly cants, that is not helping you because you are muscling it back into place affecting your natural point of aim. Ideally, you would have stock or chassis fit your body and the scope reticle (not the scope itself, but the reticle) would be in perfect alignment to gravity as well as the top of the receiver in relation to the bore of the rifle, but that is rarely the case.
I level rifles and they never look like they are canted because I use three levels one on the barrel and two on the scope. I have a little level that levels both left right and I put it on the scope turret and I will guarantee you that you will never have that problem again. The little level I have is round and contains two levels
Listening to you talking about action screw torque and I’m curious if you’ve ever looked into accuracy nodes at various torque settings. There seems to be a lot of accuracy voodoo out there and it’s not always easy to separate fact from superstition.
@@WarneUSA I’ve got a lot of respect for the quality of products Warne puts out (clearly much careful R&D and commitment to excellence) and so would value your opinion on the effects of torque on accuracy. Testing variables such as various torque in just a wood stock, wood stock with pillars, wood stock with pillars and epoxy bedding, fiberglass stock, aluminum bedding blocks and chassis systems would all be interesting to see. Dose different ammo in the same rifle change the “ideal” torque setting for that rifle? Or should we all just use 65 in/lbs for everything as it always yields the best accuracy?
@@nbonner75 It all depends on the rifle. Action screw torque certainly does affect how well the rifle will shoot, but it is typically not consistent from gun to gun so your mileage may vary. It is something to play with, I suggest checking torque and shooting groups In 5 lb increments, but do not exceed the stock manufacturer's maximum or minimum value. Pillar bedding has shown really good results but all the bedding styles you mentioned are good if it's needed, just make sure that the person doing the bedding really knows what they are doing otherwise you may not see any improvement. As far as ammo and torque value that is another one of those things you would have to experiment with.
@@WarneUSA Thnk you . Unfortunately i couldn't find anyone that has 7757M in stock. i like an extended cantilever Picatinny rail. it gave me a lot more flexibility in mounting optic. Hopefully you guys can get it up in productions.
It's nice that you explained the cant on the scope and mounting it for the younger crowd. My gunsmith was a champion silhouette shooter and he explained that to me 25 or 30 years ago and I do not like you square the scope reticle to the gun. I also do the same as you as far as using a building to square my reticle when I set my level. Very practical information you do not often see on UA-cam thanks for posting.
Prices will vary, Ken mentions in the video approximate cost but does not break down all the individual items. Probably looking at around 2k minus the scope and bipod.
Totally agree about levelling the scope if the rifle in your cheek and shoulder isn’t level then nothing is I have the same problem with my McMillan lazzeroni stocks 👍
There have been some comments regarding how Ken levels his reticle for NRL22. At the end of the day, it is going on a purpose-built rifle for NRL22 competitions where they have a typical range of 15-100 yards, on rare occasions they can have targets out to 200. Anyone with precision rifle competition experience can tell you that you are constantly shooting in compromised positions, so there are in fact shooters who cant their reticles slightly because it allows them to shoot consistently. Consistency is accuracy. The point is that if you perfectly level your reticle to your rifle then when you shoulder the rifle, the rifle slightly cants, that is not helping you because you are muscling it back into place affecting your natural point of aim. Ideally, you would have stock or chassis fit your body and the scope reticle (not the scope itself, but the reticle) would be in perfect alignment to gravity as well as the top of the receiver in relation to the bore of the rifle, but that is rarely the case.
Wrong.
That's why a bubble is installed on the rifle. No muscling required. It has no mind of its own.
Optimal gun balance point for prs shooting is actually a few inches forward of the barricade stop.
The problem with leveling a reticle to what you see level is that in most prs/nrl comps you have at least one position where you need to shoot support side. Now if you level the reticle to your shooting position, it will be way off shooting support side.
He must have stayed at a Holiday inn Express the night before😂
You don't want to cant your rifle - ever. Square the scope to the rifle and figure out what you are doing wrong, or what needs to be changed on the stock to fit you. The scope (or open sights) will not track like that over any varying distances - your dope will never be on target. Square and plumb are always set to gravity..... Here is the worst part of it in being able to shoot accurately - sight alinement is the most critical part of being able to hit where you are aiming at. Your are not canting the rifle - you are canting the sighting device on the rifle; in this case a scope. I swear - you "Scope Dopes" need to learn how to shoot with open sights first. All you are doing is making the sights (scope) crooked. How well do you think the rifle will shoot with a crooked sighting system on it?
Nice 👍👍 gun
Hello, all over... a nice build, but I was surprise to hear you that the scope does not need to be leveled with the gun platform... which is WRONG. It may not show a difference in a short range .22 rim rifle... true, but to say that is applicable to long range shooting is a misleading (probably not caused by ignorance... but by the missing knowledge)
Umm if you’re not going to true the action to the scope and instead handicap it to how you view through the scope to perceived level then what good is the bubble level you added lol.. to each their own way of what works for them but adding a level to something you’re saying won’t be level makes zero sense..
why no groups shown?
The group is shown at the very end of the video in the right-hand corner. This was the group he got after building it and zeroing it.
I highly recommend a good levelling kit and a very good setup. You can level the scope without one but it HAS TO BE LEVEL WITH YOUR GUN AND NOT YOUR POINT OF AIM or view. Mounting and levelling the scope is always the most Tedious part of setting up a precision rifle even with a good levelling kit there is still the chance of getting it wrong although its minimized. Without the levelling kit at extreme but reasonable long ranges in wind less conditions even when i think that ive carefully done things right i can see the bullet veer off the crosshairs enough that it bothers me since i tend to be nit picky... a few cm or Mm off is ok for hunting or the casual prs Style Shooting but if your a bench shooter its desired that everything is just right. I have a couple of fixed mount high quality scopes that i can compare it to. Everytime i mount them on the Gun and try to use my natural way of holding the rifle they appear ever so slightly CAnted depending on how you hold the rifle or place your head behind the scope and Gun but testing it at long ranges in good windless conditions you could see that the points of impact Stays true to the vertical points of the Cross hair. I also use them to make sure that the rifle is good and as a comparison to make sure that the non fixed mount scope setup is properly aligned. Good quality scope, high quality mounts that need no lapping, proper way of applying torque and method to the rings and making sure the scope is level to the rifle is what i would recommend. 😁
Totally understand what your saying and agree in most cases. But if your gun doesn’t sit correctly in your shoulder it’s pointless. Better just to get in to your comfortable natural shooting position and level the scope with a permanently fixed scope level that way your always in your natural shooting position but the scope remains level and plumb. 👍
Similar thing happens when I see people struggling to shoot High rib shotguns they can’t shoot them because they either cant the gun or gun fit and cast on the stock is wrong for them . 👍
My take on levelling scope, is to hang a plumb bob 25 to 30 meters away in the back yard set myself up behind my CZ at my usual hold then move the crosshair to the sting line of the plumb bob to get close as perfect to vertical level, this system has never failed me on various caliber rifles from .22 unto 303. Just my 2 bobs worth.
You’ve completely discounted anything else you’ve said by your whole discussion on cant.
looks like the same range another youtuber F-CLass John
I'll have to check out his videos. Is he from Oregon?
@@WarneUSA not sure just looks like the range with those wind baffles. last i remember he runs a f class club at the range.
60"lbs on that receiver? Wow!
Great build love the all the gear on it, also like the look of your range set up too. cheers mate
Can you tell me who makes the cheek pad you have attached to the adjustable cheek piece I am in the process of building a t1x in the same chassis
Hello Robert, Ken made that himself using some scrap materials and velcro tape.
Wiebad mini stock pad is very similar to what he made.
I understand your theory of not leveling the scope to the action because it appears unlevel to the eye but then you mounted a level to the scope which is not consistent with the reticle that you "leveled" to your eye. Oh and nobody should be leveling a scope body, level your crosshairs (plumb line or flashlight method)
Nice gun build. Any feedback two years later on this set up? Thanks.
NRL is not for me! I have looked at 35/45 video reviews of the 22-caliber ammunition. I have seen that even if you have an excellent rifle, you have to have the correct ammunition. The testing of different 22-caliber ammunition staying with the same lot number to receive the accuracy that you are after. So, for me, I started with something cheap in cost $400 RAR, and a cheap box of ammo CCI/SV cost $4.65. Range day, I did not look for anything good from a $400 rifle, well, it surprised me at @50 yards five shots.55”. For the $400 gun, I mounted an $800 Vortex PST 5-25x. I shall what may happen from here? Have fun shooting.
Question, If your optic is not square with your rifle, how do you maintain accuracy out to distances, especially with the drop of the .22lr cartridge? If your reticle is not directly up and down to the bore, as you dial up, you would technically be dialing up and to the right or left depending on if your optic was canted to the left or right. Do you compensate for the amount of cant through your windage? Seems to me that would be very difficult to do, especially if there is wind involved.
There are many precision shooters who purposely cant their rifle slightly, but they run a level, as long as the reticle is level, the scope is tracking correctly. It has to do with how the rifle fits your body and your natural point of aim. To put it another way, if your reticle is perfectly level on the rifle and when you shoulder it, your body cants the rifle and reticle, now you have a problem.
What he has done here is shift what is called Zero Offset. He has introduced a lateral offset, where a perfectly level scope would not have any. Both would still have the same vertical offset / height over bore, however. The implications of this vary by distance, not drop characteristics. With a .22lr the importance of a good wind call is 10-20x more important as far as horizontal displacement is concerned, within NRL22 distances. For a discipline like ELR what he did would be a big issue, as it makes the job a heck of a lot tougher, in a game of angles over a mile.
Wondering about your accuracy? I think you said you put a CZ MTR barrel in it. And what ammo does it like? I will do almost the same as what you have done here. I have a 457 Varmint and will put it in the Bravo chassis and swap out the stock barrel for a 20" MTR barrel. I will likely just put a YoDave spring in it to lighten the pull weight instead of the Timney trigger.
One of the most sophisticated fire control systems in the world has a can’t sensor for a reason…Can’t is real and it affects projectile flight.
Looks great, hope to see you at tcgc's NRL22 matches :)
I would love to hear the discussion about a droop mount with your canted reticle.
He leveled for NRL22. At the end of the day, it is going on a purpose-built rifle for NRL22 competitions where they have a typical range of 15-100 yards, on rare occasions they can have targets out to 200. Anyone with precision rifle competition experience will say that you are constantly shooting in compromised positions, so there are in fact shooters who cant their reticles slightly because it allows them to shoot consistently. Consistency is accuracy. The point is that if you perfectly level your reticle to your rifle then when you shoulder the rifle, the rifle slightly cants, that is not helping you because you are muscling it back into place affecting your natural point of aim. Ideally, you would have stock or chassis fit your body and the scope reticle (not the scope itself, but the reticle) would be in perfect alignment to gravity as well as the top of the receiver in relation to the bore of the rifle, but that is rarely the case.
I level rifles and they never look like they are canted because I use three levels one on the barrel and two on the scope. I have a little level that levels both left right and I put it on the scope turret and I will guarantee you that you will never have that problem again. The little level I have is round and contains two levels
Listening to you talking about action screw torque and I’m curious if you’ve ever looked into accuracy nodes at various torque settings. There seems to be a lot of accuracy voodoo out there and it’s not always easy to separate fact from superstition.
Not yet but planning on it.
@@WarneUSA I’ve got a lot of respect for the quality of products Warne puts out (clearly much careful R&D and commitment to excellence) and so would value your opinion on the effects of torque on accuracy. Testing variables such as various torque in just a wood stock, wood stock with pillars, wood stock with pillars and epoxy bedding, fiberglass stock, aluminum bedding blocks and chassis systems would all be interesting to see. Dose different ammo in the same rifle change the “ideal” torque setting for that rifle? Or should we all just use 65 in/lbs for everything as it always yields the best accuracy?
@@nbonner75 It all depends on the rifle. Action screw torque certainly does affect how well the rifle will shoot, but it is typically not consistent from gun to gun so your mileage may vary. It is something to play with, I suggest checking torque and shooting groups In 5 lb increments, but do not exceed the stock manufacturer's maximum or minimum value.
Pillar bedding has shown really good results but all the bedding styles you mentioned are good if it's needed, just make sure that the person doing the bedding really knows what they are doing otherwise you may not see any improvement. As far as ammo and torque value that is another one of those things you would have to experiment with.
What is the SKU or model No for the Warne picatinny rail ?
Hello Sofjan, The SKU for our CZ457 mount is 7757M
@@WarneUSA Thnk you . Unfortunately i couldn't find anyone that has 7757M in stock. i like an extended cantilever Picatinny rail. it gave me a lot more flexibility in mounting optic. Hopefully you guys can get it up in productions.
@@sofjanmustopoh7232 Try MGW they are showing in stock there as of 2/3/2022
@@WarneUSA thank you
Got one . And just install it
It's nice that you explained the cant on the scope and mounting it for the younger crowd. My gunsmith was a champion silhouette shooter and he explained that to me 25 or 30 years ago and I do not like you square the scope reticle to the gun. I also do the same as you as far as using a building to square my reticle when I set my level.
Very practical information you do not often see on UA-cam thanks for posting.
Q: Can I order from CZ - Just the 457 MTR Action / Barrel ??
Hello Kevin, maybe someone else can answer this but it may be best just to contact CZ and ask them.
Is that a single or 2 stage trigger?
Nice rig I love your mounts
Thank you!
Where did you get the barrel?
Good video
A question is the picatinny rail on the upper part 20mm or 22mm.???
Hello Oliver, are you referring to the width of the Picatinny rail? It is mil-spec.
@@WarneUSA
That's right, how long is the picatinny rail?
@@olivergutierrez9796 168.275mm rail. The overall length is 180.975 mm.
Looks like TCGC
Very nice build
Price how much
Actually priced reasonably at 60 Freedom Units.
Prices will vary, Ken mentions in the video approximate cost but does not break down all the individual items. Probably looking at around 2k minus the scope and bipod.
100% agree on the scope leveling! always crocked when using a level... cheers and, nice build!
Totally agree about levelling the scope if the rifle in your cheek and shoulder isn’t level then nothing is I have the same problem with my McMillan lazzeroni stocks 👍
Will a MTR 457 barrel fit on a 455 receiver?
Barrels are the same between these 2 guns
Where did you find a barreled action?
I was wondering the same thing.