Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
It's not about Jesus and Lucifer being brothers, it's not about pologamy, it's not about any doctrine, it's the fact that they Hate Joseph Smith, they hate the idea of a Prophet today. Because that idea strips them of power! Sound familiar???
Offering to have Cliffe on the show is a good idea, but I think you should take it a step further and get into contact with the PBD podcast and tell them that you feel that we were misrepresented by Cliffe and want to come on to fix the misunderstanding and set the record straight.
@@dirkjensen969no offense to Cardon, but I’d rather see someone like Travis Anderson of @missionarydiscussions or Robert Boylan of @scripturalmormonism be the one to go onto PBD and represent us. Jacob Hansen would be good too.
Jesus and Satan are brothers in the same way that Cain and Abel were brothers. Both raised and mentored by the same parents, but making different decisions.
The whole story of Cain and Abel points to the Council in Heaven. Two brothers present and offering to God one is accepted the other rejected. Resulting in one rebelling and been cast out
@@ldsmackem88 If Cain and Abel represent Lucifer and Jesus then who does Adam represent?….uh oh. That “symbolism” (?) could blunt another prong in the anti Christ attack…the Adam God theory.
Thank you so much for Ward Radio; I'm An LDS member living on the east coast, encircled by radio and pod cast that do not have our views but now I have found this.😊
PBD came up in the insurance business where several of his EXTREMELY successful leaders are LDS and at least one of them became a mission president. PBD 100% knows our theology better than his guest.
I really like your guys' UA-cam channel. But I think you over estimate the value of your channel, not that you're not providing valuable commentary, but my point is you only have just over 30000 subscribers, which I think is amazing, but you expect that all of these crazy youtubers with hundreds of thousands and even millions of followers are Are going to watch through your entire video of someone that they don't know, and uh, you expect them to respond to you and I just don't think that's realistic. And don't get me wrong, I think you'll eventually get to that point because you all provide valuable insights and good arguments. And I think your UA-cam channel is amazing, but it's gonna take some time before you build up. The reputability, when you're in the hundreds of thousands of subscribers, then they might see this and understand.
Evangelicals like Cliff should consider that Levirate marriage, which certainly was a form of polygamy in the Old Testament, came from God thru the Law.
I TOTALLY understand Cardon’s rant. I also am sick to death of the trotting out of tiresome tropes and the arrogance of “Mormon Experts” explaining my faith not only to others but to ME TOO! Benefit of the doubt is good but let’s be real
I've been discriminated SO MANY times for being LDS. Ranging from elementary to High School, dating in Alabama, my mission in Idaho, and more recently finding home schooling groups in the east coast.
Hate to say it, but I have been in the opposite situation. Less playing time on my basketball teams or not even being chosen to the team because I wasn’t LDS. It was pretty obvious what was going on. I would go beat the starters or those who made the team in PE or after school games. One year with tryouts I completely demolished the LDS kids in head on games. I scored 15 points, 3 blocks when forced to guard a center as the shortest guy out there, and had no points scored against me. It wasn’t that I had to ride the bench that year, but I wasn’t even chosen for the team. Coaches were LDS that year too. It was years of that unfortunately.
Awesome livestream enjoyed the passion, the love, and the spirit you guys have for the Gospel. Cardon is the kind of Guy I enjoy sitting with and having an intense discussion. Thank you and appreciate all you do. Want to definitely see interviews with everyday people who have left the church and came back and sharing their testimony on your show. Love to be one of them. Take care and keep up the good work.
Hey, ward radio bros, you guys should start pointing out that there's polygamy in the New Testament as well. Authorized polygamy can be located in the Book of 1st Timothy, which famously tells us that Bishops should only take on one wife, but it likewise less famously tells us that already married Elders should go forth and marry widdows and therefore take on a "double honor." The following is what those verses in 1st Timothy say. "If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of a double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." -1 Timothy 5:16-17 So, Elders are authorized to be polygamists during New Testament Times according to the Bible itself. This should be brought up every single time Anti-Mormon's make an issue out of polygamy.
This is a perversion of scripture. Paul is not talking about elders having many wives, hes stating that widows of the church are to be taken care of and supported by the church. Chapter 9 clearly states the conditions it takes to be a widow. One of them being "Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man" etc. Secondly "Elders that rule well be counted worthy of a double honour" again this is not referring to polygamy, double honour is referring to remuneration meaning they should be paid double for the works they do. Thats why Paul recites scripture in the following verse 18 "For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Please do not pervert our scriptures as if you read it and understand it.
“Jesus and Satan are brothers” is essentially a dog whistle for either an uninformed individual, or a bad faith actor. The doctrine is such an aside that has nothing to do with the central tenants of our worship, that it’s so inconsequential.
I heard a Catholic priest discuss that Lucifer was Christ's brother the second born of Heavenly Father during a religion class at a Catholic K-8 school where I taught.
Many Latter-Day Saints forget that most Christians don't believe in the Pre-mortal experience, so they imagine that "Jesus and Satan are brothers" means that Satan was born of Mary and is an additional begotten son of God. Or worse, they think we believe Satan is a God himself.
I have never heard anyone say Mormons believe satan was born of Mary. The issue is angels, humans, and God are not the same species. The issue is they see Mormons teaching that these three species are all the same.😊
For starters, as I FINALLY write this, I still have 47 minutes left to go in the video. I started playing this as I drove in to work. I’ve been continuing it as I drive around FOR work. From the very introduction, my head has been exploding with 50 things to add, ask or what have you. I’m only sat down NOW to finally begin to address SOME of them. Before I get into the meat, I have to address one thing because it just IRKS me: Cliffe? Why is the e there? What purpose can it POSSIBLY serve? Maybe there’s some ethno-linguistic explanation I just don’t know, but, until I hear it, this is no better than when young parents try to reinvent classic names by deliberately spelling them in the worst ways possible. And now, the video: missed an EASY joke in the introductions. Luke Hanson. Jacob Hansen. No Brad Witbeck Hansen? It was RIGHT THERE. With that out of the way, this has been a great example of “screw it, I’m calling it what it is” from Cardon. We don’t have a full account of what all Cliff(e) has said about the church. If we’re going to respond purely to this interview, so be it, but it’s one thing to give benefit of the doubt and wholly something else to attribute undeserved explanations and support. So I’ll summarize THE fundamental problem in ALL of these things, whether it’s about religion politics or any other “my limited understanding vs. your limited understanding” word war. “If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, we may go wrong, and it be a hard matter to get right.” In other words, if you don’t start at the very beginning and build forward, or at LEAST start with a common foundation of some kind, all you’ll ever have is pitting one group of errant assumptions vs. another group of errant assumptions. Overwhelmingly, the claims made against us, especially telling us what we believe and then proceeding to “explain” why we’re wrong, come from Cliff’s Notes (pun) summaries, badly written, which are then jammed into THEIR worldview. Then they go at length about how “real” Christianity is A, but this caricature of doctrine they label “Mormon beliefs” is B and B just DOES NOT fit with A, so it must be rejected. There is NO attempt to steel man OUR position. In fact, too often, every effort is made to make it look as bad as possible. That’s because the aim isn’t too assert that they have truth and here it is. The aim is to degrade us, scare people away from us. If you call them out on it, they’re just trying to “save” people. Really? If you have the truth, then can’t you “save” me by teaching me YOUR beliefs and standing up to all questions and queries? Why do you need to draw a creedal line in the sand, give a pass to all on one side of the line, regardless of the differences held between each of them, but insistently berate those on the other? Why do you constantly backtrack and make excuses for each other to include them in your club of Christianity but insist on holding others to strict and narrow beliefs? In short, as pointed out in the discussion, ESPECIALLY with regard to baptism, you’re putting your creeds ABOVE the Bible. The only thing worse than worshiping your “inerrant” Bible of Sola Scriptura is when you put the creeds, someone else’s interpretation OF the Bible, as your wall, the non-negotiable beliefs, ahead of the actual words IN the Bible. Baptism is a great example. There are AT LEAST a dozen references in the New Testament pointing to what baptism is, why it is, how to do it and, yes, that it is required. But you’re willing to look the other way on that so long as someone swears fidelity to your creeds. The mental gymnastics required to justify that is simply astounding. [ REDACTED out: this is too long without it. I’ll email the full to the news@ email or some other preferred email of the Ward Radio team] Then comes along someone who says God spoke to him, even appeared in front of him, and God says, basically “yeah, they’ve been screwing this up for a WHILE”. God clears up some things, lays them out differently. Still God. Still Father. Still Son, aka Jesus. Born of Mary. Lived. Taught. Crucified. Resurrected. Just no longer on those divergent paths and concepts people came up with over the centuries. So they stick TO those paths and concepts AS truth and use them to EXCLUDE us. They take the few factoids they think they know about us and our teaching and jam them into THEIR paradigm to declare us false. Well, OF COURSE our claims don’t fit into YOUR paradigm, but it’s because YOUR paradigm is the problem!!!!! It’s being QUITE gracious to say that pastors like Cliff(e) go to “study” theology. They do not study. They are merely instructed and trained. There is a HUGE difference. They are fed an explicit line of thought built on cherry picked verses of justification and told it is central truth. It may be central BELIEF for them, but truth is another matter. You know the difference between an acronym and a “backronym”? The acronym comes from taking the phrase or name and shortening it to the first letters of each word to make a new word (if it doesn’t make a new word, it’s just an abbreviation). It builds forward. A backronym, however, starts at the end objective and works backward to choose words to fill in the acronym they want to use. The creeds are basically bad acronyms while the centuries of justifications for them are backronyms. Rather than take apart the original acronym and try to build forward again, they accept it as is and use selective reading and interpretation to justify the claims. Sure, Cliff(e) isn’t nearly as hostile as he could be or as others definitely are, but he’s still misguided at best, a blatant liar at worst. There’s no shortage of information available to fully educate him on what we ACTUALLY teach and ACTUALLY believe and why. He just deliberately chooses not to touch any of it. Why? It basically comes down to 2 options: either 1. He’s fully stuck in the “questioning what I’m told questions God and damns me forever” mindset OR 2. He’s afraid of losing his income. One way or another, he’s EXACTLY what he accuses Joseph Smith of being. He’s not dealing honestly or in good faith. He’s sticking to his script, probably because he can’t afford (literally, monetarily) not to. Some people, like your Joel Osteen, could quit any time, they have their filthy lucre. It’s just not enough. So they’ll keep telling themselves that they’re serving God, one conference at a time, one speaking tour at a time, one TV show at a time, one book at a time. Sorry, Cliff(e). You’re well out of your depths on this one. When PBD asked, what you SHOULD have said was “I’m not a Mormon, I haven’t studied their doctrines. All I can say is that they don’t believe exactly as I do.” THEN you could try to justify why YOUR version is true Christianity without propping up endless strawmen and repeating tired lies.
You all should go watch Vocab Malone's discussion with David Wood on Mormonism. He frankly conceeds that Christian apologetics has been behind on Mormonism for at least the past 25 years. It should come as no surprise that pastors like Cliffe don't know much about the church.
Those poor poor Anti-Mormons, they certainly are a sad lot of misery and villainy. I mean, imagine your life without the restored gospel. How depressed those poor souls must be. Thats the thing, their envy, their spite, their anger, it all comes from depression. Those poor depressed souls. God bless them.
It's interesting that Cardon and myself have similar experiences growing up as SoCal boys. I remember my friends parents and grandparents bashing me as an elementary student. Churches like Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside were quite contrary to the church and their patrons made me aware quite often.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Nope! No scriptural metaphysical Trinity. Not in the scriptures, Apostolic Fathers, and Apologists. That was made up later. It is clearly impossible (if one accepts historical evidence as relevant at all) to escape the claim that the later formulations of dogma cannot be reached by a process of deductive logic from the original propositions and must contain an element of novelty. Wiles, Making of Christian Doctrine, p. 4. The emergence of the full trinitarian doctrine was not possible without significant modification of previously accepted ideas. Wiles, Making of Christian Doctrine, p. 144. there is no trinitarian doctrine in the Synoptics or Acts. (in the New Testament) nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead. in John there is no trinitarian formula. Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, pp. 14, 16, 29. These passages give no doctrine of the Trinity, but they show that Paul linked together Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They give no trinitarian formula...but they offer material for the later development of trinitarian doctrine. ...(Paul) has no formal trinitarian doctrine and no clearcut realization of a trinitarian problem, but he furnishes much material for the later development of a trinitarian doctrine. Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, pp. 22-23. There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But the three are there, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and a triadic ground plan is there, and triadic formulas are there....The Biblical witness to God, as we have seen, did not contain any formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, any explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, pp. 32, 35. The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament. P. Achtemeier, ed., Harper's Bible Dictionary, p. 1099. This double series of texts manifests Paul's lack of clarity in his conception of the relation of the Spirit to the Son. Paul shares with the OT a more fluid notion of personality than the later theological refinements of nature, substance, and person. His lack of clarity should be respected for what it is and be regarded only as the starting point of later development. J. Fitzmyer, Pauline Theology: A Brief Sketch, p. 42. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, presents a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. R.L. Richard, "Trinity, Holy," in New Catholic Encyclopedia 15 vols., 14:295. There is in them (the Apostolic Fathers), of course, no trinitarian doctrine and no awareness of a trinitarian problem. Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 44. The Church had to wait for more than three hundred years for a final synthesis, for not until the Council of Constantinople (381) was the formula of one God existing in three coequal persons formally ratified. J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, pp. 87-88. Where the doctrine (of the Trinity) was elaborated, as e.g. in the writings of the Apologists, the language remained on the whole indefinite, and, from a later standpoint, was even partly unorthodox. Sometimes it was not free from a certain subordinationism. F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 2nd ed., p. 1394. It (subordinationism) is a characteristic tendency in much Christian teaching of the first three centuries, and is a marked feature of such otherwise orthodox Fathers as St. Justin and Origen. F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 2nd ed., p. 1319.
Carson Ellis is my spirit animal! 😂 I love his passion and he tells it how it is but gets reminded that he should be Christlike. That was me in my mission and in my daily life 😅
I’m 100% with Cardon on this. The scriptures exist to warn us of Satan and his tactics, but when we see the very “sheep in wolves clothing” in our midst we will gaslight everyone, ourselves first, into saying “oh they mean no harm, they just don’t understand.” We blatantly ignore the very thing it tells us to watch out for. And to make matters worse we don’t talk about those things because it makes us uncomfortable to hear that some people, even and especially within our congregations, are these types of people. We close our eyes as if these things don’t exist anymore. Just like we don’t talk about demonic oppression and possession being very real, and probably more common today than they have ever been.
Cardon, I LOVE it when you get like that becuz you KNOW facts, history, truth! Thank you for being a person that stands up for what's right. Like Joseph Smith spoke the King Follet talk, that turning the other cheek but to not walk away but to STAND UP FOR WHAT'S RIGHT!! AWESOME BROTHER CARDON!! We love y'all! 🙏❤️⚘️
@@MrRickb75645 we fight Satan with love? Satan will exploit your love to get at your kids. We love God's children w love, not lies. God can't even muster the least degree of allowance for sin.
@@jonahbarnes5841 I can’t like this enough , this idea that “love “ in other words TOLERANCE is the number one quality of Christ is false . Show me where Christ says “Be thou tolerant of All sin and sinners “ …did I miss that ? Where EXACTLY in the BOM do any of the prophets/ missionaries tell the people they teach to not follow the “traditions of their fathers “ BUT the most important change is love NOT understanding or following Christ ?
@22:30 Hate-watching Reformed Protestant here. The breakdown of the branches of Christendom is actually not a good one. If you want to be most accurate, the best breakdown is East vs West and then subdivide from there. The major branches in the East are the Imperial Eastern Roman Church centered in Constantinople which we now call "Eastern" Orthodoxy followed in number by two other branches, which are the Miaphysite churches of Syria, Armenia, Egypt and later Ethiopia called "Oriental" Orthodoxy and its theological opposite in Persia called Nestorianism or the Church of the East (which I believe Mr. Bet David was raised in). Additionally, there are Eastern churches from each of those traditions which have joined communion with the Pope (or never broke it in the case of the Maronites). From the early medieval period up until the 1500s the entirety of the West was under the dominion of the Bishop of Rome and part of the Latin Church. The Reformation happens and its various branches (i.e., Lutheranism, the Continental Reformed, the Anglican Communion, and then later non-conformists) spread out in Europe and the British Empire. If Mormonism falls anywhere in this broader discussion, it is in the Restorationist movement in America along with the Campbellites, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses, which all arise out of the peculiarly American form of Protestantism. Just giving the historical breakdown and not commenting on theological differences nor the particular truth claims of any group.
This is a layman discussion, not a history lesson on the protestant reformation. The 3 branches mentioned is a fair generalization from an American context.
@@DrBob-gr5ru ?? I'm saying PBD's layman generalization is sufficient and fair. In this particular case, there is no need to expound on esoteric subdivisions of Christian branches.
@@derekalineal I am saying it is not fair. There are millions of Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and Orthodox Christians in the U.S. They have played a role as well in the nation's history and are major groups that warrant recognition. The hosts of this show are talking about elevating the discussion and criticized Knechtle for not being accurate. I am just holding the hosts to the same standard.
@@DrBob-gr5ru Got ya. I think everyone agrees and acknowledges that those aren't the only 3. I'm sorry you felt left out. It just seems like there are always comments like this, somebody out there wasn't mentioned so they feel left out or excluded. W e can't talk about everything all the time. It reminds me of the LGBT acronym that keeps growing. A bit silly.
They'll never let him on because he can easily destroy them. Be honest. Name one really strong popular non LDS Christian theologian or appologist that's been on the channel? It's easy to destroy someone when they can't reply. If thier arguments are so weak as ward claims then they should easily win the debate, right? Just ask Kwaku when he debated Jeff and Dr. James?
@@davidjanbaz7728 yeah one of the pioneers of the heart lung bypass machine would be a terrible presidential candidate 🙄 the only reason he would be a bad candidate is because he is super old.
Well, here's the sola scriptura, play by their own rules, Bible bashing answer to the evangelical "Satan and Jesus are brothers" parody of an argument based on a misunderstanding of what paradoxes are and how they work, and the fact that scripture and all christian theologies are teaming with them: Genesis 22:2. God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, his "only son" (God's own words to describe Abraham's relationship to his son Isaac) But if you believe the Bible, then you know that Abraham had another son, Ishmael. Does that mean you believe Isaac and Ishmael are brothers? But doesn't that contradict God's own words when he said that Isaac was Abraham's only son??? This might sound extremely pedantic, but the rational for Isaac & Ishmael both being children of Abraham (ie: brothers) and Jesus and Lucifer both being offspring of God the Father is the same. And the rational that Isaac is Abraham's only son (the birthright son) and Jesus being the only begotten of the Father, is strikingly similar. All of these statements can be true at the same time. That is what a paradox is: a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true. Christ is the ultimate paradox.
It’s okay, Cardon- I feel you on the discussions😂 I served in 15-17 and I while we had preach my gospel, my mission president had us teaching discussions that were 95-98% memorized
Love the podcast and the things I learn from it. The Cardon rants were a little too heavy on this. I was really enjoying the things that brad and luke were sharing but when Cardon came in several times with a 3 or 4 minute speech of how terrible "these people" are, honestly made me want to stop watching.
This issue of GOD is simple IF you consider that the word GOD is nothing more than a TITLE. Our heavenly Father has a name: Elohim, His son has a name: Jehova. But they both have the TITLE of God.
The Book of Mormon teaches us that Christ is the eternal God, the father, the alpha and omega, the creator of all things in heaven and earth. It also teaches he is the the son of God , both are true. It’s a paradox .
@@westonwoodbury3011 It's a contraditction. Jesus doesn't just share the name of Father. He is the Father. You believe God was once a human man, yes? You believe he went on the same journey you're on now, yes? Then someone had to create him. A another God perhaps? You don't know, though. Yet the Bible tell us nothing that was made was made unless Jesus created it. 3 All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. - John 1:3 Colossians 1:16-17 covers every living thing in the universe: 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. All is all. You can't exclude the Father from that. It doesn't say "all things have been created through him, except the Father."
Hebrews 12:9 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Wealthy widowed landowners like my 8th great grandmother Suzanna North Martin who was hung as a witch in Salem for refusing to admit she was a witch to a court of "Real Christians? "
56:40 💯 🔥 best point made the entire stream. Sick and tired of timid defense. Keep calling out the intentional, convenient, and deceptive hypocrisy Cardon.
"Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.” (Mark 3:35) It wouldn't be wrong to say that Lucifer used to be a brother of Jesus (even by other Christians) but lost that title when he fell. The worst kind of "I don't know you"
I am a temple worthy member of the church happily teaching Sunday school… also guess what I’m a pot head… I was hit by a car and shattered almost every bone my body hurts and marijuana is the only medicine I will take for my pain I will not become addicted to pills that you can over dose on rather then smoke marijuana. The church fully supports me and I attend the temple regularly. Marijuana does not make you a dud of a child we need to accept our brothers and sisters who are good people and use legal marijuana we save lives using marijuana rather then opioids. Let’s change the way we talk about a miracle drug that saves lives and improves lives. Fast food and television is far worse for you than a medicine you can not over dose on.
It's crazy I just commented on the gospel of Christ channel with scripture proof from the Bible about being Gods and it's nowhere to be found in the comment section.
I made a comment about the Book of Mormon and it being translated from reformed Egyptian ONCE and that it’s about faith not whatever the accusation was. It disappeared quickly.
The more I listen…the more I find this to be disingenuous. I was wanting to learn a little more from your perspective but man oh man. The polygamy discussion was rough as was universalism, 5 years old understanding😂, philosophy of agency etc…
Cardon is the “Alpha Clown” on this show- I used to listen a lot when they started out- but it’s just a forum for Cardon to hear himself talk nonstop and mock people- nothing of real substance going on here It’s disappointing- but it is what it is An LDS clown show- with Carson begging for Venmo to “support the show” 🙄 Jacob actually has an intelligent UA-cam channel
Would you guys puleeeeese get to the point. You're beating around the proverbial bush! It's 23 minutes into this thing and you're still talking. Let's get on with it, guys!
I feel you Cardon. I also grew up in SoCal and experienced the same thing. I was told I'm going to hell for being a member of the church, Girls would date me because I was member, I had people try to convert me away from the church in high school. I came upon Ward Radio a couple weeks ago and I love it. Wish this was around when I was growing up it would have deff helped me defend the church.
Mormons believe that there is a pre-existence, that we did live in heaven together as a family with God before coming to earth, which is why we call each other “brother” and “sister” The other christian denominations do not believe any of those things… their belief is that God has level of created beings in heaven, but none of them were us before our birth on earth, their belief is that we were not created until the seventh day of creation, so when these Christians who are not Mormon call each other “brother” and “sister” it is because they have accepted Christ as their Savior, not because they believe we lived in heaven together as a family before coming to earth Mormons believe (and I agree) that every person ever born on earth is our literal brother and sister, that every human ever to born on earth is a member of our family literally, AND that Christ is our Savior, for us BOTH things are true This is what sets us apart from all the other Christian denominations…
Well said. They got into the weeds during the podcast discussing elements maybe contributing to the misconception Cliff expressed, but could have done much better addressing the fundamental difference regarding the pre-earth life.
Love cliff he’s a good guy and preaches for Christian’s and he is also insanely intelligent as well. Kinda sad by this. Never pegged him to not research
“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” -God (10 commandments) That’s the hardest thing for me… I’m cool with folks not agreeing with my faith practice. But in the name of God they are totally fine with lying about my beliefs. Amazing! God works His great wonders… so we don’t need to worry about it. Thanks guys! ☀️❤️
We believe that we are spirit sons and daughters of God, and when we follow Christ we are adopted by Christ to be saved from the fall and become joint heirs with Christ.
@@budgetsquid0639 do you mean was God created? Jesus is the alpha and Omega the begin and the end... In the beginning was the word and the word was God.. not exact quotes. But I think this answers the question. D&C 19: 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink- 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
@budgetsquid0639 do you mean was God created? Jesus is the alpha and Omega the begin and the end... In the beginning was the word and the word was God.. not exact quotes. But I think this answers the question. D&C 19: 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink- 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
@@budgetsquid0639no. Jesus has always existed. But so have you and I. Eternity goes both ways, not just forward. But we progress through eternity. We all existed as intelligences, then were formed by our heavenly parents into spirits in the pre-mortal life. Then our earthly parents formed us into mortal beings for the mortal phase of our eternal existence. One day, each of us will die, but our spirits will reunite with our bodies to become perfected, resurrected beings for the rest of eternity. Jesus was also once a spirit being who became a mortal man, subject to all the ails of humanity, including death. He died. His spirit and body were separated. Then he became the first of all who lived on this earth to reunite with his body and become a perfected resurrected being. But He's always existed. And so have you and I.
I'm with the guy with the black shirt...most evangelicals are pharisees. AND I'm sick of other church members who won't stand up and call them out. I guess I'm an "Ohio Mormon"...(vis a vis Witness)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability, knowledge, or competence in a particular area overestimate their own skill level. This phenomenon occurs because they lack the necessary awareness to accurately self-assess and recognize their deficiencies. Essentially, individuals who are least competent are often the most confident in their abilities, while those with greater competence may underestimate their own performance. It also highlights the need for humility and continuous learning, as well as the potential for overconfidence in areas where one may not be as skilled as they believe. I'm first time viewer and not a latter day saint. I'm an Agnostic that's curious.
It's hard for me to listen to any of these evangelical preachers when they are so obviously incentivized by money to stick to their own limited interpretation of the Bible. They've dug themselves a hole knowing that in the moment they open themselves up for additional revelation from God, the money goes away! Just look at Pastor Jeff. How sincere can you be when your livelihood is at stake? The passage in Alma 35 from Come Follow Me this week struck me hard with that in mind: 3 "And it came to pass that after the more popular part of the Zoramites had consulted together concerning the words which had been preached unto them, they were angry because of the word, FOR IT DID DESTROY THEIR CRAFT; therefore they would not hearken unto the words." Clif and many others are quite literally a fulfillment of this scripture. 🤯
Imagine, belonging to a religion that says you need to pay 10% of your income to avoid burning at the second coming of Christ, and being able to keep your family in eternity. Imagine being ignorant enough to believe that.
@@samstokes6872 😊 Everything you and I possess ultimately belongs to God. I've covenanted to consecrate 100% to Him not just 10%, get it right! 😂 I have no problem "imagining" belonging to His Church, it's the biggest blessing of my life.
@@samstokes6872it's not what you think. None of the things we have on earth belongs to us. It belongs to God. He allows us to have it at our hard work to earn it. And all he ask in return is 10 percent of your income. It's right there in the scriptures. So that you can support hi a church and the poor in the world.
1:30:48 I’d like to point out that Jesus said in Matthew 5:20 ‘For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven’. Jesus didn’t criticize the Pharisees for being regimented or for following the rules, he criticized them because they talked about the rules, made up their own rules, and didn’t actually live the commandments that God gave them. Jesus was actually telling the people that they needed to be even more righteous than the Pharisees.
I don’t mind the Cardon rant, but it’s hard to go back and forth from the rant to the calmer demeanor of the guests. It’s the change in pace and volume that makes it harder to listen to.
Sam Shamoun’s video of supposedly “destroyed a Mormon guy” keeps popping up on UA-cam. Have you invited him to debunk his rhetoric about the LDS church?
Debunk? Mormons are polytheists that believe you will get your own planet to repopulate! This is not in the scriptures, your theology is demonic! I pray you bring Sam on, so you listen to the truth.
@@randomjuanlopez4449Sam and Satan both want to reach souls trying to find truth and feed them full of half-truths. Dude is douche bag. Those people get their cummupance, in this life or the next.
@@theliefilter6412they invite people of other faiths onto their show all the time. 🤷♀️ usually publicly on air and also in email or on social media. They’ve had Pentecostals, Calvinists, atheists and evangelicals on their show lots of times. Dallas Jenkins -who made The Chosen- has been on twice. Whether this pastor fellow comes on the show will likely depend on if he’s willing to accept the offer. I think it would be nice to see them find some common ground with him honestly. Carson is A LOT nicer to people who disagree who he has in the studio live than he is reacting to their videos.
if you dont want to listen to 20 minutes of dialogue between the 5 seconds of each clip, go find the video and go to 40:55 in the podcast and thats where cliffs starts,
What I don't like about your comments is you are apologizing for the truthfulness of Our Gospel. In this case, We know we have a Father in heaven that is God the creator of everything. He has a Son Jesus Christ our our savior. He is also a God like his father. We are all sons of the same heavenly Father. That includes everyone from the most righteous to the most evil. We are all brothers and sisters.
In mortality, think on this: baptism using the element of water, confirmation using the element of fire, death using the element of earth... what is the element of air...resurrection, perhaps?
Well, we learn in the temple endowment that Lucifer refers to Eve as her brother, and Heavenly Father as Father. Also, Lucifer was called a "Son of the Morning Star". Furthermore, when Heavenly Father called us all together to the great council where He revealed His plan for us, ALL His spirit children, Lucifer was there along with Jehovah and the rest of us. Lucifer chose to not follow Heavenly Father's plan for us to get physical mortal bodies here on earth and then be redeemed by our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he chose against Heavenly Father AND actively fought against that plan, Lucifer and his followers (our other spiritual brothers and sisters) were punished by being cast out of the Father's presence.
Lucifer is a created supernatural being : Jesus was the Visible YHWH ( Jehovah) of the Old Testament) The Father is the Invisible YHWH( jehovah)of the Old Testament. Both R in Genesis 19:24 as God Most High. Jesus and Lucifer R totally different and NOT related AT all.
@beckabuff1 Supernatural isn't a proper word. It's used by those who don't believe in revelation. The Father and Jesus are the 2 principle beings in the plan. Calling Lucifer minor might be the wrong choice of words as without him, the freedom of choice, good over evil, would be difficult. We individually are responsible for our decisions, not the one who puts it in front of us. For example, if someone offers you a piece of candy you are the one who takes it. If you were replying to davidjanbaz, ignore him. He constantly attacks and lies against the church. Pray, and you will see the path. The LDS church is the only church that teaches he will answer prayers to those who truly want to know.
It is not a reasonable thought to assume we can never become like Jesus Christ or God the Father simply because they have never been tainted by sin and we have. To hold to such a belief is to deny the power and efficacy of the Atonement of Christ which truly does purge our stains, blotting them out entirely as if we ultimately were never tainted by sin in the first place.
Come on guys. Our Father gathered His CHILDREN together, presented His Plan, chose one Son to fulfill His Plan and the other son got mad and rebelled!!!!! Easy to understand.
It just frustrates me!!! It's soooo simple & common sense!! THE SCRIPTURES STATE.... GOD THE FATHER & HIS BELOVED SON, JESUS CHRIST!! 2 separate individuals!! Just like marriage: a HUSBAND & a WIFE have SONS & DAUGHTERS. Yes, husbands & wives become ONE. Just like The Father & Son are ONE in the Godhead. How HARD is that to understand?! Ppl crack me up. WE humans, make it difficult when it really isn't. I'm working my way back to the Savior's church. Where else would I go... Love you guys!! 🙏❤️⚘️
I look to my husband for validation when I'm answering for both of us, and also trying to include him in the conversation. Also, yes little kids interrupt. Still better than cats
Years ago someone I knew asked what the difference between our religious and I talked about the God head and he said, that is what I believe and I said well your church doesn't.
Hi Guys Just wanted to say that this a great PODcast to represent The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS. I would like though to mention that we are not at first God's children but his Creation in his Image and likeness. Second we are his children when we follow/choose Jesus Christ. Thanks
29:14 This. I’m not usually one interested in shaming others, but when folks like Knechtle put on this act I don’t see why holding up a theological mirror so they face the horror of their own ideas about God shouldn’t be the first response. A god who creates beings out of nothing with a nature that will lead them to eternal torment (all so a few can be part of his eternal cheer squad) is a level of depravity almost unfathomable, but that’s the god of their theology.
@@derekalineal For real. They blabbed for 2 hours and went through maybe 30 seconds of the guy talking. And dbat is being generous giving this 15% debunking. Maybe 5%. And Cardon screaming is 60%.
@@derekalinealI think they use the term debunking far too liberally. The actual % of debunking is probably 1%. The rest is Cardon whining or screaming or saying, “you know what I’m sayin’?”
On these debunking vids I find Cardon to be by far the weakest element. He is a good interviewer, and something of a good entertainer. But his constant ....... I will say histrionics...... on these vids is tiring. But Brad and Luke are much better. He also does my least favourite thing for response vids, and that is interrupting the video mid comment and not letting the thought finish. Also....... an intellectually honest orthodox Christian who believes in the trinity has to think Joseph Smith was wrong, and quite fundamentally so. I also think the Trinity (whilst I think it is of course wrong) is a pretty interesting attempt to square the seemingly impossible circle of there being 1 God, Jesus being Divine, and Him being different to God himself. It is a difficult concept to get your head around sometimes.
@@neodigremo well said. the Trinity at least explains the beginning or creation of all things through a Creator. In Mormonism a god is always a god who had a god who had a god who had a god…and so on. JS said there were “intelligences” or intelligence matter in the beginning but it doesn’t address who was the first god or who created those intelligences (disregarding verses in Isaiah about no gods before God the Father of course). Also, I imagine Cardon must be exhausted fighting against criticism with so much anger in his heart. As others have said elsewhere in this chat, you have to fight hate with love. Cardon is not good at that and seems anxious to do the opposite.
Polygamy existed under the mosaic law and I have never heard any evidence cited in the New Testament where Christ revoked it.. The only one I have ever found is the qualifications for Bishops in 1 Tim 3:2. This has always been an interesting requirement. If monogamy is the rule why state the obvious unless there was another option.
Mosaic law also states that adulterers, blasphemers, homosexuals, and rebellious children were to be stoned. If you're going to argue for polygamy, albeit poorly, as if it's following the mosaic law, then you must also follow the rest of the laws. In genesis the dynamic between man and woman in marriage is clearly defined to be between one man and one woman. Every other instance in the Bible where polygamy is showcased always ends in disaster, and that is not by accident.
@@Cal-bo1sr Oh C'mon So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who were polygamists and Christ specifically says in Matthey 8:11 are in the kingdom of heaven are sinners and a disaster? If I remember right Jacobs polygamy saved his entire family as Joseph was sold into egypt and provided the way for his families survival during the famine. Not to mention the entire nation of Israel and the prophetic teachings and prophecies of Christ. Abrahams son Ishmael was a fulfillment along with Isaac of Gods promise to him that all nations of the earth would be blessed with his posterity. and even notable Christian pastors have stated that the law of moses has 3 different aspects to it. One is the Ceremonial, the second is the secular aspect, and the third is the moral. Christ did away with the ceremonial aspects of the law by stating he would not accept blood sacrifice any more and would be offered a broken hear and a contrite spirit but the secular and moral aspects of the law are still in effect and summed up in the 2 great commandments. Which Christ himself said I am not come to destroy the prophets but to fulfill as in Matt 5: 17. But only a fool would say everything in the old testament has been fulfilled. Half of the prophecies regarding Israel and the seed of Jacob are in the book of Daniel, Isiah, Malachi etc and are still pending fulfillment or were fulfilled with the establishment of the Church in the last days through the prophet Joseph Smith. As Christ said not one jot or tittle shall pass away but shall all be fulfilled. So trying to say why we don't follow the whole law of Moses is a very shallow interpretation of the old testament and the new testament in general. My statement still stands where is the scripture in the New Testament that Christ or the apostles specifically revoked polygamy? Especially when we have historical record that some Christian sects in the the centuries following the resurrection continued the practice? also I made a mistake in previous post that polygamy was under the Mosaic Law. That is True but the fact is that ploy gamy PREDATES the mosaic law and is therefore not a practice inherent to the law of Moses uniquely and would therefore not necessarily fall under Christs declaration of the fulfillment of the law itself.
@@gregbriggs4540 1. Isaac wasn't a polygamist. He had one wife, Rebekah, and had zero concubines. 2. Just because Abraham, Jacob, and I'll throw in David (a man after God's own heart) committed grave sins doesn't mean they were denied access to heaven. Being saved by grace, through believing in God and repenting, is what the Bible is about. 3. Yes, both Abraham and Jacobs polygamist relationships ended in disaster. It was only after God stepped in, after the sins were committed, and redeemed the situation that he good was able to come from them. Just because God allows something to happen doesn't mean he is in favor or supports it. 4. Yes, The mosaic law is divided up into 3 categories, ceremonial, civil, and moral. Polygamist relationships would fall under civil law which were to be upheld by the Israeli people OF THE TIME it was written. The same can be said for owning slaves. The reason these concessions were allowed was because, as we have seen abundantly throughout the Bible, life isn’t perfect and there are victims everywhere. It's important to understand the times of the Old Testament. It was a time of war, slavery, and widows. If a woman was to survive she needed a husband, and with the population of men declined due to battle there were little options. Slavery was also highly common on earth, practiced by every culture. God knew that the Israelites would take up slaves and would disobey them if he commanded them not to. So, he gave laws that would result in the best outcome possible FOR THAT TIME. After the turbulent times of the Old Testament, especially early OT things changed. The New Testament speaks out against both slavery and polygamy. 5. But lets go back to before the induction of sin. In Genesis he says a man would leave his mother and father to join with his WIFE, not wives. In Genesis God gives man dominion over the earth, not other men. In a sin free world polygamy isn’t part of the good institution of marriage God created. We further see polygamy unsupported in 1 Corinthians 7:1-2: "It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband." 6. When it comes to prophecies, on multiple occasions Joseph Smith has been proven wrong. Not that his prophecies haven’t come to pass, but the ones he actually foretold literally were proven wrong in the time he said they would happen. 7. It’s important to understand that the mosaic law and the Old Testament are telling the story of the old covenant that leads up to the New Testament where a new covenant is formed. We currently live under the new covenant. That doesn’t mean the old covenant is completely obsolete as certain laws and practices have rolled over, such as the ten commandments which Jesus references in Matthew 22:36-40 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” The first half references the first 5 commandments while the latter half is the last 5. I would also like to point you to the parameters God gave Israel when it came to picking a king and what behavior that king should display. It’s a bit of a list but it’s found in Deuteronomy 17, but in 17:17 we find the third rule “The king must not take many wives”. Now some may ask “what is many”. Based on the Hebrew words it’s anything more than ONE. So both King David and Solomon lived in sin engaging in polygamy. Which as I have stated previously proved disastrous.
@@Cal-bo1sr Please tell me where God in the old testament condemned Abraham and Jacob for their polygamous marriages? You won't find it. your own bible contradicts your interpretation of Deut 17:17 2 Samuel 12:7-8 7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. So is Nathan a fallen prophet? By your interpretation God is tempting David to do evil which is in direct violation of James 1:13 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: Also this would call into question 1 Kings 15:5 5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he COMMANDED him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. So is polygamy being a sin for david or not ? Is god giving david wives to sin or not? Apparently God didn't think so. Your attack on Joseph's supposed non fulfilled prophecies is a shallow pathetic one is that many of the ones you anti's site are either conditional like Jonah and Nineveh's destruction for example or simply have not come to pass yet. And that isn't even the topic of this discussion If you wish I can provide you a link to a couple of videos that directly address these prophecies. (but my guess is you would dismiss it any way) And while we are on the old covenant issue Why is the covenant for monogamy in genesis covered under your new covenant and not the other since both predate the mosaic law and the old covenant is the law of Moses. But the patriarchs exist before the old covenant so which is it. Can't have your cake and eat it to. So please site the the scripture where the new covenant abolished polygamy or monogamy. You will not find it. And you are right god did command and allow it (polygamy) under certain circumstances. so my question is if he can allow it once why not again to say he wouldn't is arrogant presumption. In fact the Book Of Mormon spells out quite clearly the circumstances where it is allowed in Jacob 2:30. Monogamy is the rule unless directed other wise 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me(Polygamy), I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things(Monogamy).Jacob condemned polygamy among the Nephites and specified the only time it was permitted by God.
@@gregbriggs4540 You're not going to find God specifically condemning Abrahams sin of taking matters into his own hands to bring forth a child, instead of trusting God. At the same time you're not going to find God, anywhere in the Bible condemning pedophilia either. So you're going to have to make a choice when it comes to where your moral justification beings and ends. Make no mistake God didn't need Abraham to lie with Hagar in order to fulfill his promise of making him into a great nation. God doesn't need to openly condemn something for it to be a sin. Before Cain killed Abel God did not say "thou shalt not kill" but Cain knew exactly that it was a sin. As for the topic of 2 Samuel you brought up, as I stated before, during those times exceptions had to be made so that greater suffering wouldn't happen. This is God doing the best he can in a fallen world. It would be customary for the next King to take in the wives of the former to ensure that they and their children would not be cast out and destitute. The term "bosom" is often used in the Bible as a place of refuge or safe dwelling. Now one thing I admittedly can't answer is why Nathan said "wives" as it's only stated that Saul had one wife. This custom was a compromise ordained by God to make the best of a situation in a fallen world. It's the exception for the title and people of this era, not the rule. So no Nathan isn't a fallen prophet. In fact the reason he came to meet David in the verses you mentioned was to deliver a message by God to judge David for killing Uriah....and taking his wife. Kinda crazy how that turned out. My "attacks" on Smith aren't attacks. Just observations of factual history, and by biblical standards he would fall under being a false prophet. It is not my fault nor my burden to carry the fact he failed to live up to these standards. As for your statements about the two covenants, polygamy, monogamy, and such, all I will say is what I said earlier. God makes concessions to deal with a fallen world/people. There was a time where rules were made because such practices were virtually unavoidable due to cultural and events outside of most peoples control. However, it's important to remember God is the designer. He doesn't make mistakes and in the garden of Eden he laid out what a righteous marriage union looked like: one man and one woman. If it were true that God wanted us to have multiple wives he would've made Adam multiple helpers, Paul would've said for men to take up multiple wives, and chief among all Jesus would've said so. In Matthew 19 Jesus is talking to religious the law-keepers on marriage and in response he says in verse 4-6: He said to them, “Have you not read that He Who made them in the first place made them man and woman? 5 It says, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will live with his wife. The two will become one.’ 6 So they are no longer two but one. Let no man divide what God has put together.” A man will....live with his wife. Not wives and not concubines. Wife. The sentiment I'm trying to get across of God making concessions is also seen further down in verse 8: Jesus said to them, “Because of your hard hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. It was not like that from the beginning." The fact Jesus acknowledges that it was not like that from the beginning, and that Moses allowed them because of their hardened hearts shows how it is a concession to work with a fallen world. You don't have to agree with me, but I feel there is ample evidence within the Bible to promote monogamy thru Gods original design and the turmoil that comes from polygamy, especially when it's fueled by unbridled desire. As for your statements about the regarding the Book of Mormon, I don't see the Book of Mormon as an authority or to be true for a number of reasons. So I won't refute what you say it claims, nor will I concede to it. For me, no book holds equal or supplementary authority to the Bible.
I feel like brad is trying to zig zag the whole Satan is our brother thing. Y'ALL, we ALL are brothers and sisters. Satan is Christ's brother. He is our brother. This is silly.
Maybe to you. If you took a second to listen to what I was actually saying, you’d realize that i’m saying Protestants don’t understand that the same way - that’s the difference I was trying to clarify.
Larry Burkett's book on "Giving and Tithing" drew me closer to God and helped my spirituality. 2020 was a year I literally lived it. I cashed in my life savings and gave it all away. My total giving amounted to 40,000 dollars. Everyone thought I was delusional. Today, 1 receive 85,000 dollars every two months. I have a property in Calabasas, CA, and travel a lot. God has promoted me more than once and opened doors for me to live beyond my dreams. God kept to his promises to and for me
There's wonder working power in following Kingdom principles on giving and tithing. Hallelujah!
But then, how do you get all that in that period of time? What is it you do please, mind sharing?
It is the digital market. That's been the secret to this wealth transfer. A lot of folks in the US and abroad are getting so much from it, God has been good to my household Thank you Jesus
Big thanks to Ms. Susan Jane Christy❤️✨💯May God bless Christy Fiore services,she have changed thousands of lives globally
How can I start this digital market, any guidelines and how can I reach out to her?
It's not about Jesus and Lucifer being brothers, it's not about pologamy, it's not about any doctrine, it's the fact that they Hate Joseph Smith, they hate the idea of a Prophet today. Because that idea strips them of power! Sound familiar???
Good comment
Yeah, they give the pharisee gatekeeper vibe.
Nobody cares about Joe Smith
@treysmith1122 the Mormon church is verifiably fake. It comes from a criminal who was taking advantage of ignorant people. Incredibly dumb
Not about hating anybody, but understanding that JS contradicts God's Word.
Offering to have Cliffe on the show is a good idea, but I think you should take it a step further and get into contact with the PBD podcast and tell them that you feel that we were misrepresented by Cliffe and want to come on to fix the misunderstanding and set the record straight.
Yeah❤❤❤Cardon you must go on PBD!!!
@@dirkjensen969no offense to Cardon, but I’d rather see someone like Travis Anderson of @missionarydiscussions or Robert Boylan of @scripturalmormonism be the one to go onto PBD and represent us. Jacob Hansen would be good too.
Yes yes yes! This is awesome
@@taddbarnettpickleball3600 dude Cardon is the voice of your people. Rex Cardaream
This religion is such a scam. lol Joseph putting his face in a hat with a rock
Jesus and Satan are brothers in the same way that Cain and Abel were brothers. Both raised and mentored by the same parents, but making different decisions.
The whole story of Cain and Abel points to the Council in Heaven. Two brothers present and offering to God one is accepted the other rejected. Resulting in one rebelling and been cast out
Fantastic comparison!
@@ldsmackem88 If Cain and Abel represent Lucifer and Jesus then who does Adam represent?….uh oh. That “symbolism” (?) could blunt another prong in the anti Christ attack…the Adam God theory.
PBD has said a lot of good things about us and the church in the past... Most recent was with Glenn Beck about a year ago!
Thank you so much for Ward Radio; I'm An LDS member living on the east coast, encircled by radio and pod cast that do not have our views but now I have found this.😊
These are not Official Church views. These are views of men mingled with scripture.
PBD came up in the insurance business where several of his EXTREMELY successful leaders are LDS and at least one of them became a mission president. PBD 100% knows our theology better than his guest.
You guys should contact PBD and see if one of you guys can get on.
yeah I think he may be open to getting a member on his show at least i hope
@@benzun9600 he would, PBD works with a lot members and investigated the church a few years back. He's very open to LDS.
absolutely 👍
They start watching the video at 16:42
Not all hero’s wear capes.
Lol 😂 @@zissler1
I really like your guys' UA-cam channel. But I think you over estimate the value of your channel, not that you're not providing valuable commentary, but my point is you only have just over 30000 subscribers, which I think is amazing, but you expect that all of these crazy youtubers with hundreds of thousands and even millions of followers are Are going to watch through your entire video of someone that they don't know, and uh, you expect them to respond to you and I just don't think that's realistic. And don't get me wrong, I think you'll eventually get to that point because you all provide valuable insights and good arguments.
And I think your UA-cam channel is amazing, but it's gonna take some time before you build up. The reputability, when you're in the hundreds of thousands of subscribers, then they might see this and understand.
Thank you
HOsanna shout to you sir.
Evangelicals like Cliff should consider that Levirate marriage, which certainly was a form of polygamy in the Old Testament, came from God thru the Law.
I TOTALLY understand Cardon’s rant. I also am sick to death of the trotting out of tiresome tropes and the arrogance of “Mormon Experts” explaining my faith not only to others but to ME TOO! Benefit of the doubt is good but let’s be real
I've been discriminated SO MANY times for being LDS. Ranging from elementary to High School, dating in Alabama, my mission in Idaho, and more recently finding home schooling groups in the east coast.
I had an employer who was super excited to hire me for the first few weeks, then everything changed when he learned I was a member of the church.
@@danjohnson8556 sad
Hate to say it, but I have been in the opposite situation. Less playing time on my basketball teams or not even being chosen to the team because I wasn’t LDS. It was pretty obvious what was going on. I would go beat the starters or those who made the team in PE or after school games. One year with tryouts I completely demolished the LDS kids in head on games. I scored 15 points, 3 blocks when forced to guard a center as the shortest guy out there, and had no points scored against me. It wasn’t that I had to ride the bench that year, but I wasn’t even chosen for the team. Coaches were LDS that year too. It was years of that unfortunately.
@@b.v.9864 Mormonism is fake and dumb. That is probably why?
@@rmac9177 Sad to hear it. We need to be better than that.
They deem Angels a different species instead of a role or title or status
Yes absolute weird angel zoology stuff
Videos like this make me thank the Lord that I was born under the covenant into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. God be praised!
Awesome livestream enjoyed the passion, the love, and the spirit you guys have for the Gospel. Cardon is the kind of Guy I enjoy sitting with and having an intense discussion. Thank you and appreciate all you do. Want to definitely see interviews with everyday people who have left the church and came back and sharing their testimony on your show. Love to be one of them. Take care and keep up the good work.
Check out The Come Back Podcast. This is what they do!
Check with "Comeback podcast" and get on with them. I would love to hear your story!!!
Hey, ward radio bros, you guys should start pointing out that there's polygamy in the New Testament as well. Authorized polygamy can be located in the Book of 1st Timothy, which famously tells us that Bishops should only take on one wife, but it likewise less famously tells us that already married Elders should go forth and marry widdows and therefore take on a "double honor." The following is what those verses in 1st Timothy say.
"If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of a double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine." -1 Timothy 5:16-17
So, Elders are authorized to be polygamists during New Testament Times according to the Bible itself. This should be brought up every single time Anti-Mormon's make an issue out of polygamy.
This is a perversion of scripture. Paul is not talking about elders having many wives, hes stating that widows of the church are to be taken care of and supported by the church. Chapter 9 clearly states the conditions it takes to be a widow. One of them being "Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man" etc. Secondly "Elders that rule well be counted worthy of a double honour" again this is not referring to polygamy, double honour is referring to remuneration meaning they should be paid double for the works they do. Thats why Paul recites scripture in the following verse 18 "For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Please do not pervert our scriptures as if you read it and understand it.
“Jesus and Satan are brothers” is essentially a dog whistle for either an uninformed individual, or a bad faith actor. The doctrine is such an aside that has nothing to do with the central tenants of our worship, that it’s so inconsequential.
Amen
And yet it lingers on
I heard a Catholic priest discuss that Lucifer was Christ's brother the second born of Heavenly Father during a religion class at a Catholic K-8 school where I taught.
Many Latter-Day Saints forget that most Christians don't believe in the Pre-mortal experience, so they imagine that "Jesus and Satan are brothers" means that Satan was born of Mary and is an additional begotten son of God. Or worse, they think we believe Satan is a God himself.
@@hjohnson966 Good point.
This is such an important distinction.
I have never heard anyone say Mormons believe satan was born of Mary. The issue is angels, humans, and God are not the same species. The issue is they see Mormons teaching that these three species are all the same.😊
@@fezzik8785 how do you defend the concept that they are not the same species?
@@taylorsessions4143 ¡fierro compa!
I'm there with you Cardon. They started the move away from the discussions while I was in the mission field.😂😂😂
Cardon, we love you. But, “bless your heart,” I’d appreciate more airtime balance with some of your friends.
For starters, as I FINALLY write this, I still have 47 minutes left to go in the video. I started playing this as I drove in to work. I’ve been continuing it as I drive around FOR work. From the very introduction, my head has been exploding with 50 things to add, ask or what have you. I’m only sat down NOW to finally begin to address SOME of them.
Before I get into the meat, I have to address one thing because it just IRKS me: Cliffe? Why is the e there? What purpose can it POSSIBLY serve? Maybe there’s some ethno-linguistic explanation I just don’t know, but, until I hear it, this is no better than when young parents try to reinvent classic names by deliberately spelling them in the worst ways possible.
And now, the video: missed an EASY joke in the introductions. Luke Hanson. Jacob Hansen. No Brad Witbeck Hansen? It was RIGHT THERE.
With that out of the way, this has been a great example of “screw it, I’m calling it what it is” from Cardon. We don’t have a full account of what all Cliff(e) has said about the church. If we’re going to respond purely to this interview, so be it, but it’s one thing to give benefit of the doubt and wholly something else to attribute undeserved explanations and support.
So I’ll summarize THE fundamental problem in ALL of these things, whether it’s about religion politics or any other “my limited understanding vs. your limited understanding” word war.
“If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we start wrong, we may go wrong, and it be a hard matter to get right.”
In other words, if you don’t start at the very beginning and build forward, or at LEAST start with a common foundation of some kind, all you’ll ever have is pitting one group of errant assumptions vs. another group of errant assumptions. Overwhelmingly, the claims made against us, especially telling us what we believe and then proceeding to “explain” why we’re wrong, come from Cliff’s Notes (pun) summaries, badly written, which are then jammed into THEIR worldview. Then they go at length about how “real” Christianity is A, but this caricature of doctrine they label “Mormon beliefs” is B and B just DOES NOT fit with A, so it must be rejected. There is NO attempt to steel man OUR position. In fact, too often, every effort is made to make it look as bad as possible. That’s because the aim isn’t too assert that they have truth and here it is. The aim is to degrade us, scare people away from us. If you call them out on it, they’re just trying to “save” people. Really? If you have the truth, then can’t you “save” me by teaching me YOUR beliefs and standing up to all questions and queries? Why do you need to draw a creedal line in the sand, give a pass to all on one side of the line, regardless of the differences held between each of them, but insistently berate those on the other? Why do you constantly backtrack and make excuses for each other to include them in your club of Christianity but insist on holding others to strict and narrow beliefs? In short, as pointed out in the discussion, ESPECIALLY with regard to baptism, you’re putting your creeds ABOVE the Bible. The only thing worse than worshiping your “inerrant” Bible of Sola Scriptura is when you put the creeds, someone else’s interpretation OF the Bible, as your wall, the non-negotiable beliefs, ahead of the actual words IN the Bible. Baptism is a great example. There are AT LEAST a dozen references in the New Testament pointing to what baptism is, why it is, how to do it and, yes, that it is required. But you’re willing to look the other way on that so long as someone swears fidelity to your creeds. The mental gymnastics required to justify that is simply astounding.
[ REDACTED out: this is too long without it. I’ll email the full to the news@ email or some other preferred email of the Ward Radio team]
Then comes along someone who says God spoke to him, even appeared in front of him, and God says, basically “yeah, they’ve been screwing this up for a WHILE”. God clears up some things, lays them out differently.
Still God. Still Father. Still Son, aka Jesus. Born of Mary. Lived. Taught. Crucified. Resurrected.
Just no longer on those divergent paths and concepts people came up with over the centuries.
So they stick TO those paths and concepts AS truth and use them to EXCLUDE us. They take the few factoids they think they know about us and our teaching and jam them into THEIR paradigm to declare us false. Well, OF COURSE our claims don’t fit into YOUR paradigm, but it’s because YOUR paradigm is the problem!!!!!
It’s being QUITE gracious to say that pastors like Cliff(e) go to “study” theology. They do not study. They are merely instructed and trained. There is a HUGE difference. They are fed an explicit line of thought built on cherry picked verses of justification and told it is central truth. It may be central BELIEF for them, but truth is another matter. You know the difference between an acronym and a “backronym”? The acronym comes from taking the phrase or name and shortening it to the first letters of each word to make a new word (if it doesn’t make a new word, it’s just an abbreviation). It builds forward. A backronym, however, starts at the end objective and works backward to choose words to fill in the acronym they want to use. The creeds are basically bad acronyms while the centuries of justifications for them are backronyms. Rather than take apart the original acronym and try to build forward again, they accept it as is and use selective reading and interpretation to justify the claims.
Sure, Cliff(e) isn’t nearly as hostile as he could be or as others definitely are, but he’s still misguided at best, a blatant liar at worst. There’s no shortage of information available to fully educate him on what we ACTUALLY teach and ACTUALLY believe and why. He just deliberately chooses not to touch any of it. Why? It basically comes down to 2 options: either 1. He’s fully stuck in the “questioning what I’m told questions God and damns me forever” mindset OR 2. He’s afraid of losing his income. One way or another, he’s EXACTLY what he accuses Joseph Smith of being. He’s not dealing honestly or in good faith. He’s sticking to his script, probably because he can’t afford (literally, monetarily) not to. Some people, like your Joel Osteen, could quit any time, they have their filthy lucre. It’s just not enough. So they’ll keep telling themselves that they’re serving God, one conference at a time, one speaking tour at a time, one TV show at a time, one book at a time.
Sorry, Cliff(e). You’re well out of your depths on this one. When PBD asked, what you SHOULD have said was “I’m not a Mormon, I haven’t studied their doctrines. All I can say is that they don’t believe exactly as I do.” THEN you could try to justify why YOUR version is true Christianity without propping up endless strawmen and repeating tired lies.
You all should go watch Vocab Malone's discussion with David Wood on Mormonism. He frankly conceeds that Christian apologetics has been behind on Mormonism for at least the past 25 years. It should come as no surprise that pastors like Cliffe don't know much about the church.
No. Joseph Smith contradicts Jesus Christ. It's as simple as that.
The word of the day is: "ultracrepidarian". Thanks Luke!
Also from Cali - I get you Cardon. God bless you and your family!
Dude you're going to blow. Yes, you are correct, it is the propagation of lies. We do have to forgive then though.
They all do !!!
Those poor poor Anti-Mormons, they certainly are a sad lot of misery and villainy. I mean, imagine your life without the restored gospel. How depressed those poor souls must be.
Thats the thing, their envy, their spite, their anger, it all comes from depression. Those poor depressed souls. God bless them.
It's interesting that Cardon and myself have similar experiences growing up as SoCal boys. I remember my friends parents and grandparents bashing me as an elementary student. Churches like Harvest Christian Fellowship in Riverside were quite contrary to the church and their patrons made me aware quite often.
They were trying to help you tbh
So glad the Gospel of Nice is not preached here. Jesus never taught to be nice, he taught to be kind.
U obviously don't have the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Nope! No scriptural metaphysical Trinity. Not in the scriptures, Apostolic Fathers, and Apologists. That was made up later.
It is clearly impossible (if one accepts historical evidence as relevant at all) to escape the claim that the later formulations of dogma cannot be reached by a process of deductive logic from the original propositions and must contain an element of novelty.
Wiles, Making of Christian Doctrine, p. 4.
The emergence of the full trinitarian doctrine was not possible without significant modification of previously accepted ideas.
Wiles, Making of Christian Doctrine, p. 144.
there is no trinitarian doctrine in the Synoptics or Acts.
(in the New Testament) nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead.
in John there is no trinitarian formula.
Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, pp. 14, 16, 29.
These passages give no doctrine of the Trinity, but they show that Paul linked together Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They give no trinitarian formula...but they offer material for the later development of trinitarian doctrine.
...(Paul) has no formal trinitarian doctrine and no clearcut realization of a trinitarian problem, but he furnishes much material for the later development of a trinitarian doctrine.
Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, pp. 22-23.
There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But the three are there, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and a triadic ground plan is there, and triadic formulas are there....The Biblical witness to God, as we have seen, did not contain any formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, any explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons.
Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, pp. 32, 35.
The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.
P. Achtemeier, ed., Harper's Bible Dictionary, p. 1099.
This double series of texts manifests Paul's lack of clarity in his conception of the relation of the Spirit to the Son. Paul shares with the OT a more fluid notion of personality than the later theological refinements of nature, substance, and person. His lack of clarity should be respected for what it is and be regarded only as the starting point of later development.
J. Fitzmyer, Pauline Theology: A Brief Sketch, p. 42.
Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, presents a somewhat unsteady silhouette.
Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century.
R.L. Richard, "Trinity, Holy," in New Catholic Encyclopedia 15 vols., 14:295.
There is in them (the Apostolic Fathers), of course, no trinitarian doctrine and no awareness of a trinitarian problem.
Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 44.
The Church had to wait for more than three hundred years for a final synthesis, for not until the Council of Constantinople (381) was the formula of one God existing in three coequal persons formally ratified.
J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, pp. 87-88.
Where the doctrine (of the Trinity) was elaborated, as e.g. in the writings of the Apologists, the language remained on the whole indefinite, and, from a later standpoint, was even partly unorthodox. Sometimes it was not free from a certain subordinationism.
F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 2nd ed., p. 1394.
It (subordinationism) is a characteristic tendency in much Christian teaching of the first three centuries, and is a marked feature of such otherwise orthodox Fathers as St. Justin and Origen.
F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 2nd ed., p. 1319.
@@davidjanbaz7728where does it say trinity in the Bible ?
Where does it say Trinity in the Bible. Just one place it says Trinity.
@@The_Man_Chidi Huh? who's talking bout the Trinity here?
Carson Ellis is my spirit animal! 😂 I love his passion and he tells it how it is but gets reminded that he should be Christlike. That was me in my mission and in my daily life 😅
I’m 100% with Cardon on this. The scriptures exist to warn us of Satan and his tactics, but when we see the very “sheep in wolves clothing” in our midst we will gaslight everyone, ourselves first, into saying “oh they mean no harm, they just don’t understand.” We blatantly ignore the very thing it tells us to watch out for. And to make matters worse we don’t talk about those things because it makes us uncomfortable to hear that some people, even and especially within our congregations, are these types of people. We close our eyes as if these things don’t exist anymore. Just like we don’t talk about demonic oppression and possession being very real, and probably more common today than they have ever been.
Cardon, I LOVE it when you get like that becuz you KNOW facts, history, truth! Thank you for being a person that stands up for what's right. Like Joseph Smith spoke the King Follet talk, that turning the other cheek but to not walk away but to STAND UP FOR WHAT'S RIGHT!! AWESOME BROTHER CARDON!! We love y'all! 🙏❤️⚘️
Cardon . Its what we do as lds members. We love others , not hate them. We cant fight satan with anger, for that is his tool. We fight him with love.
If I could like this comment a hundred times I would. Well said ❤
@@MrRickb75645 we fight Satan with love? Satan will exploit your love to get at your kids. We love God's children w love, not lies. God can't even muster the least degree of allowance for sin.
@@jonahbarnes5841 I can’t like this enough , this idea that “love “ in other words TOLERANCE is the number one quality of Christ is false . Show me where Christ says “Be thou tolerant of All sin and sinners “ …did I miss that ? Where EXACTLY in the BOM do any of the prophets/ missionaries tell the people they teach to not follow the “traditions of their fathers “ BUT the most important change is love NOT understanding or following Christ ?
@22:30 Hate-watching Reformed Protestant here. The breakdown of the branches of Christendom is actually not a good one.
If you want to be most accurate, the best breakdown is East vs West and then subdivide from there. The major branches in the East are the Imperial Eastern Roman Church centered in Constantinople which we now call "Eastern" Orthodoxy followed in number by two other branches, which are the Miaphysite churches of Syria, Armenia, Egypt and later Ethiopia called "Oriental" Orthodoxy and its theological opposite in Persia called Nestorianism or the Church of the East (which I believe Mr. Bet David was raised in). Additionally, there are Eastern churches from each of those traditions which have joined communion with the Pope (or never broke it in the case of the Maronites).
From the early medieval period up until the 1500s the entirety of the West was under the dominion of the Bishop of Rome and part of the Latin Church. The Reformation happens and its various branches (i.e., Lutheranism, the Continental Reformed, the Anglican Communion, and then later non-conformists) spread out in Europe and the British Empire.
If Mormonism falls anywhere in this broader discussion, it is in the Restorationist movement in America along with the Campbellites, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah's Witnesses, which all arise out of the peculiarly American form of Protestantism.
Just giving the historical breakdown and not commenting on theological differences nor the particular truth claims of any group.
This is a layman discussion, not a history lesson on the protestant reformation. The 3 branches mentioned is a fair generalization from an American context.
@@derekalineal That sounds like a historical argument to me 😉
@@DrBob-gr5ru ?? I'm saying PBD's layman generalization is sufficient and fair. In this particular case, there is no need to expound on esoteric subdivisions of Christian branches.
@@derekalineal I am saying it is not fair. There are millions of Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and Orthodox Christians in the U.S. They have played a role as well in the nation's history and are major groups that warrant recognition. The hosts of this show are talking about elevating the discussion and criticized Knechtle for not being accurate. I am just holding the hosts to the same standard.
@@DrBob-gr5ru Got ya. I think everyone agrees and acknowledges that those aren't the only 3. I'm sorry you felt left out. It just seems like there are always comments like this, somebody out there wasn't mentioned so they feel left out or excluded. W e can't talk about everything all the time. It reminds me of the LGBT acronym that keeps growing. A bit silly.
YOU MAKE ME SO (many horns blaring) VERY HAPPY. IM SO GLAD YOU (horns blaring again) CAME INTO MY LIFE!!!!
If Joe was alive today he would be making out with your wife.
I totally agree: pastor cliffs should come on to Ward radio .
They'll never let him on because he can easily destroy them. Be honest. Name one really strong popular non LDS Christian theologian or appologist that's been on the channel? It's easy to destroy someone when they can't reply. If thier arguments are so weak as ward claims then they should easily win the debate, right? Just ask Kwaku when he debated Jeff and Dr. James?
All that podcast with Cliffe Knechtle did was made me ask "why shouldn't pastors run for president?" And then showed me why
LOL 😂 your prophets R much worse to run.
@@davidjanbaz7728 yeah one of the pioneers of the heart lung bypass machine would be a terrible presidential candidate 🙄 the only reason he would be a bad candidate is because he is super old.
@@jasonsnyder6709state of Utah supreme court justice
@@davidjanbaz7728Our first presidential candidate was the first candidate to openly advocate for the abolition of slaves.
Well, here's the sola scriptura, play by their own rules, Bible bashing answer to the evangelical "Satan and Jesus are brothers" parody of an argument based on a misunderstanding of what paradoxes are and how they work, and the fact that scripture and all christian theologies are teaming with them:
Genesis 22:2. God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, his "only son" (God's own words to describe Abraham's relationship to his son Isaac)
But if you believe the Bible, then you know that Abraham had another son, Ishmael. Does that mean you believe Isaac and Ishmael are brothers? But doesn't that contradict God's own words when he said that Isaac was Abraham's only son???
This might sound extremely pedantic, but the rational for Isaac & Ishmael both being children of Abraham (ie: brothers) and Jesus and Lucifer both being offspring of God the Father is the same. And the rational that Isaac is Abraham's only son (the birthright son) and Jesus being the only begotten of the Father, is strikingly similar. All of these statements can be true at the same time. That is what a paradox is: a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.
Christ is the ultimate paradox.
Great breakdown and point. Well done.
It’s okay, Cardon- I feel you on the discussions😂
I served in 15-17 and I while we had preach my gospel, my mission president had us teaching discussions that were 95-98% memorized
Love the podcast and the things I learn from it. The Cardon rants were a little too heavy on this. I was really enjoying the things that brad and luke were sharing but when Cardon came in several times with a 3 or 4 minute speech of how terrible "these people" are, honestly made me want to stop watching.
This issue of GOD is simple IF you consider that the word GOD is nothing more than a TITLE. Our heavenly Father has a name: Elohim, His son has a name: Jehova. But they both have the TITLE of God.
Truth
Elohim is plural. Chew on it.
The Book of Mormon teaches us that Christ is the eternal God, the father, the alpha and omega, the creator of all things in heaven and earth. It also teaches he is the the son of God , both are true. It’s a paradox .
@@westonwoodbury3011 It's a contraditction. Jesus doesn't just share the name of Father. He is the Father. You believe God was once a human man, yes? You believe he went on the same journey you're on now, yes? Then someone had to create him. A another God perhaps? You don't know, though.
Yet the Bible tell us nothing that was made was made unless Jesus created it.
3 All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. - John 1:3
Colossians 1:16-17 covers every living thing in the universe:
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
All is all. You can't exclude the Father from that. It doesn't say "all things have been created through him, except the Father."
You all bring me joy. Thank you so much for these informative videos.
Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Wealthy widowed landowners like my 8th great grandmother Suzanna North Martin who was hung as a witch in Salem for refusing to admit she was a witch to a court of "Real Christians? "
I think for the most part we have the same doctrine but different vocabulary! There is some many examples of this 😅
56:40 💯 🔥 best point made the entire stream. Sick and tired of timid defense. Keep calling out the intentional, convenient, and deceptive hypocrisy Cardon.
There are two kinds of people in this world, those who believe in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, and communists.
"Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”
(Mark 3:35)
It wouldn't be wrong to say that Lucifer used to be a brother of Jesus (even by other Christians) but lost that title when he fell.
The worst kind of "I don't know you"
I am a temple worthy member of the church happily teaching Sunday school… also guess what I’m a pot head… I was hit by a car and shattered almost every bone my body hurts and marijuana is the only medicine I will take for my pain I will not become addicted to pills that you can over dose on rather then smoke marijuana. The church fully supports me and I attend the temple regularly. Marijuana does not make you a dud of a child we need to accept our brothers and sisters who are good people and use legal marijuana we save lives using marijuana rather then opioids. Let’s change the way we talk about a miracle drug that saves lives and improves lives. Fast food and television is far worse for you than a medicine you can not over dose on.
Cardon was spot on with rant!!
Random question but what happened to Kwaku?
He has been working on the Joseph Smith website for awhile now. Might be busy there, let alone other unknown projects.
I'm so done with holy ghosting... Cardon, why are you using this song at the beginning bro?
2 hours?! 🤩 what a treat!
It's crazy I just commented on the gospel of Christ channel with scripture proof from the Bible about being Gods and it's nowhere to be found in the comment section.
Seriously? 😮
I made a comment about the Book of Mormon and it being translated from reformed Egyptian ONCE and that it’s about faith not whatever the accusation was. It disappeared quickly.
What is ironic is that some on the podcast complain/whine about Cliff not understanding but then butcher anything regarding Christian doctrine:)
The more I listen…the more I find this to be disingenuous. I was wanting to learn a little more from your perspective but man oh man. The polygamy discussion was rough as was universalism, 5 years old understanding😂, philosophy of agency etc…
Cardon is the “Alpha Clown” on this show- I used to listen a lot when they started out- but it’s just a forum for Cardon to hear himself talk nonstop and mock people- nothing of real substance going on here
It’s disappointing- but it is what it is
An LDS clown show- with Carson begging for Venmo to “support the show” 🙄
Jacob actually has an intelligent UA-cam channel
Would you guys puleeeeese get to the point. You're beating around the proverbial bush! It's 23 minutes into this thing and you're still talking. Let's get on with it, guys!
I feel you Cardon. I also grew up in SoCal and experienced the same thing. I was told I'm going to hell for being a member of the church, Girls would date me because I was member, I had people try to convert me away from the church in high school. I came upon Ward Radio a couple weeks ago and I love it. Wish this was around when I was growing up it would have deff helped me defend the church.
Girls would date you because you’re a member?! How can I get some of that 🤣🤣
Mormons believe that there is a pre-existence, that we did live in heaven together as a family with God before coming to earth, which is why we call each other “brother” and “sister”
The other christian denominations do not believe any of those things… their belief is that God has level of created beings in heaven, but none of them were us before our birth on earth, their belief is that we were not created until the seventh day of creation, so when these Christians who are not Mormon call each other “brother” and “sister” it is because they have accepted Christ as their Savior, not because they believe we lived in heaven together as a family before coming to earth
Mormons believe (and I agree) that every person ever born on earth is our literal brother and sister, that every human ever to born on earth is a member of our family literally, AND that Christ is our Savior, for us BOTH things are true
This is what sets us apart from all the other Christian denominations…
Well said. They got into the weeds during the podcast discussing elements maybe contributing to the misconception Cliff expressed, but could have done much better addressing the fundamental difference regarding the pre-earth life.
It made me sad to see Cardon so wound up over this … but I understand you completely. I am going to watch this, I really enjoy this.
Love cliff he’s a good guy and preaches for Christian’s and he is also insanely intelligent as well. Kinda sad by this. Never pegged him to not research
“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” -God (10 commandments)
That’s the hardest thing for me… I’m cool with folks not agreeing with my faith practice. But in the name of God they are totally fine with lying about my beliefs. Amazing!
God works His great wonders… so we don’t need to worry about it.
Thanks guys! ☀️❤️
Pat bet David is really good friends with Glenn Beck. I’m not surprised he knows about our lifestyle.
He at one point of his life investigated the church and thought about converting
CARDON!!!! PLEASE TURN YOUR MIC DOWN TO A LEVEL TO MATCH YOU GUESTS!! AND PLEASE STOP SHOUTING!!!!!!
Are you saying Cardon is the Denisen of religious UTube? AWWWWW AWWWWW.
I love this channel Keep it up, brothers.. Greetings from Germany
We believe that we are spirit sons and daughters of God, and when we follow Christ we are adopted by Christ to be saved from the fall and become joint heirs with Christ.
Was Jesus a created being in Mormonism ?
@@budgetsquid0639
do you mean was God created? Jesus is the alpha and Omega the begin and the end... In the beginning was the word and the word was God.. not exact quotes. But I think this answers the question.
D&C 19:
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink- 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
@budgetsquid0639 do you mean was God created? Jesus is the alpha and Omega the begin and the end... In the beginning was the word and the word was God.. not exact quotes. But I think this answers the question.
D&C 19:
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink- 19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
@@budgetsquid0639no. Jesus has always existed. But so have you and I. Eternity goes both ways, not just forward. But we progress through eternity. We all existed as intelligences, then were formed by our heavenly parents into spirits in the pre-mortal life. Then our earthly parents formed us into mortal beings for the mortal phase of our eternal existence. One day, each of us will die, but our spirits will reunite with our bodies to become perfected, resurrected beings for the rest of eternity. Jesus was also once a spirit being who became a mortal man, subject to all the ails of humanity, including death. He died. His spirit and body were separated. Then he became the first of all who lived on this earth to reunite with his body and become a perfected resurrected being. But He's always existed. And so have you and I.
BTW, thank you so much for this episode...
I'm with the guy with the black shirt...most evangelicals are pharisees. AND I'm sick of other church members who won't stand up and call them out.
I guess I'm an "Ohio Mormon"...(vis a vis Witness)
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability, knowledge, or competence in a particular area overestimate their own skill level. This phenomenon occurs because they lack the necessary awareness to accurately self-assess and recognize their deficiencies. Essentially, individuals who are least competent are often the most confident in their abilities, while those with greater competence may underestimate their own performance.
It also highlights the need for humility and continuous learning, as well as the potential for overconfidence in areas where one may not be as skilled as they believe.
I'm first time viewer and not a latter day saint. I'm an Agnostic that's curious.
Have you read the book of mormon yet? Or Joseph's account of his first vision?
Welcome friend 😊
Humility is huge.
It can become easier to treat others as you would like to be treated the more you are treated as you would NOT like to be treated.
It's hard for me to listen to any of these evangelical preachers when they are so obviously incentivized by money to stick to their own limited interpretation of the Bible. They've dug themselves a hole knowing that in the moment they open themselves up for additional revelation from God, the money goes away! Just look at Pastor Jeff. How sincere can you be when your livelihood is at stake?
The passage in Alma 35 from Come Follow Me this week struck me hard with that in mind:
3 "And it came to pass that after the more popular part of the Zoramites had consulted together concerning the words which had been preached unto them, they were angry because of the word, FOR IT DID DESTROY THEIR CRAFT; therefore they would not hearken unto the words."
Clif and many others are quite literally a fulfillment of this scripture. 🤯
Imagine, belonging to a religion that says you need to pay 10% of your income to avoid burning at the second coming of Christ, and being able to keep your family in eternity.
Imagine being ignorant enough to believe that.
@@samstokes6872 😊 Everything you and I possess ultimately belongs to God. I've covenanted to consecrate 100% to Him not just 10%, get it right! 😂 I have no problem "imagining" belonging to His Church, it's the biggest blessing of my life.
@@samstokes6872imagine following the Bible about tithing.
@@samstokes6872so the Bible does not say you should pay tithing ? Malachi 3:8-10
@@samstokes6872it's not what you think. None of the things we have on earth belongs to us. It belongs to God. He allows us to have it at our hard work to earn it. And all he ask in return is 10 percent of your income. It's right there in the scriptures. So that you can support hi a church and the poor in the world.
1:30:48 I’d like to point out that Jesus said in Matthew 5:20 ‘For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven’. Jesus didn’t criticize the Pharisees for being regimented or for following the rules, he criticized them because they talked about the rules, made up their own rules, and didn’t actually live the commandments that God gave them. Jesus was actually telling the people that they needed to be even more righteous than the Pharisees.
Cardon, you need to chill. You should take a page from your co-hosts. You make us look unhinged. I get you've had bad experiences...but bruh, chill
Nah, go harder in the paint bro.
35:38 - this is why we like The Truth and Light Letter
I don’t mind the Cardon rant, but it’s hard to go back and forth from the rant to the calmer demeanor of the guests. It’s the change in pace and volume that makes it harder to listen to.
Sam Shamoun’s video of supposedly “destroyed a Mormon guy” keeps popping up on UA-cam. Have you invited him to debunk his rhetoric about the LDS church?
Debunk? Mormons are polytheists that believe you will get your own planet to repopulate! This is not in the scriptures, your theology is demonic! I pray you bring Sam on, so you listen to the truth.
Please bring Sam on the podcast. I am sure he will reach plenty of souls who are yearning for the truth.
@@randomjuanlopez4449Sam and Satan both want to reach souls trying to find truth and feed them full of half-truths. Dude is douche bag. Those people get their cummupance, in this life or the next.
They are afraid of Sam. They will never invite him. Sam is a beast.
@@theliefilter6412they invite people of other faiths onto their show all the time. 🤷♀️ usually publicly on air and also in email or on social media. They’ve had Pentecostals, Calvinists, atheists and evangelicals on their show lots of times. Dallas Jenkins -who made The Chosen- has been on twice.
Whether this pastor fellow comes on the show will likely depend on if he’s willing to accept the offer. I think it would be nice to see them find some common ground with him honestly. Carson is A LOT nicer to people who disagree who he has in the studio live than he is reacting to their videos.
if you dont want to listen to 20 minutes of dialogue between the 5 seconds of each clip, go find the video and go to 40:55 in the podcast and thats where cliffs starts,
What I don't like about your comments is you are apologizing for the truthfulness of Our Gospel. In this case, We know we have a Father in heaven that is God the creator of everything. He has a Son Jesus Christ our our savior. He is also a God like his father. We are all sons of the same heavenly Father. That includes everyone from the most righteous to the most evil. We are all brothers and sisters.
In mortality, think on this: baptism using the element of water, confirmation using the element of fire, death using the element of earth... what is the element of air...resurrection, perhaps?
Air is only resuscitation: that's not what Jesus did but Mormonism can claim anything as Christian it won't help u all.
I like this.
At birth we receive the breath of life, this would be Air. Resurrection entails the fifth and supernal element of Spirit. Great insight!
We don't let women be sealed to more than one man Cardon.
I have recently found out that to be incorrect. Check with your Temple President.
My great grandmother is sealed to 5 men.
Women can be sealed to multiple men if all men are deceased.
celestial polygamy
@@Famr4evr I then have hope. I want to be seal to another man.
Well, we learn in the temple endowment that Lucifer refers to Eve as her brother, and Heavenly Father as Father. Also, Lucifer was called a "Son of the Morning Star". Furthermore, when Heavenly Father called us all together to the great council where He revealed His plan for us, ALL His spirit children, Lucifer was there along with Jehovah and the rest of us. Lucifer chose to not follow Heavenly Father's plan for us to get physical mortal bodies here on earth and then be redeemed by our Savior, Jesus Christ. Because he chose against Heavenly Father AND actively fought against that plan, Lucifer and his followers (our other spiritual brothers and sisters) were punished by being cast out of the Father's presence.
Lucifer is a created supernatural being : Jesus was the Visible YHWH ( Jehovah) of the Old Testament)
The Father is the Invisible YHWH( jehovah)of the Old Testament.
Both R in Genesis 19:24 as God Most High.
Jesus and Lucifer R totally different and NOT related AT all.
You and Jesus are not related.@@davidjanbaz7728
@@davidjanbaz7728 If you believe Jesus created Lucifer how can you say they are not related at all? I guess you are not related to your mom at all.
If they are are all supernatural…So there are multiple Gods? Jehovah and The Father being supreme and Lucifer then a minor God? A genuine question.
@beckabuff1 Supernatural isn't a proper word. It's used by those who don't believe in revelation. The Father and Jesus are the 2 principle beings in the plan. Calling Lucifer minor might be the wrong choice of words as without him, the freedom of choice, good over evil, would be difficult. We individually are responsible for our decisions, not the one who puts it in front of us. For example, if someone offers you a piece of candy you are the one who takes it. If you were replying to davidjanbaz, ignore him. He constantly attacks and lies against the church. Pray, and you will see the path. The LDS church is the only church that teaches he will answer prayers to those who truly want to know.
It is not a reasonable thought to assume we can never become like Jesus Christ or God the Father simply because they have never been tainted by sin and we have. To hold to such a belief is to deny the power and efficacy of the Atonement of Christ which truly does purge our stains, blotting them out entirely as if we ultimately were never tainted by sin in the first place.
Come on guys. Our Father gathered His CHILDREN together, presented His Plan, chose one Son to fulfill His Plan and the other son got mad and rebelled!!!!!
Easy to understand.
It just frustrates me!!! It's soooo simple & common sense!! THE SCRIPTURES STATE.... GOD THE FATHER & HIS BELOVED SON, JESUS CHRIST!! 2 separate individuals!! Just like marriage: a HUSBAND & a WIFE have SONS & DAUGHTERS. Yes, husbands & wives become ONE. Just like The Father & Son are ONE in the Godhead. How HARD is that to understand?! Ppl crack me up. WE humans, make it difficult when it really isn't. I'm working my way back to the Savior's church. Where else would I go... Love you guys!! 🙏❤️⚘️
Thank you for defending the faith!!!
I look to my husband for validation when I'm answering for both of us, and also trying to include him in the conversation.
Also, yes little kids interrupt. Still better than cats
Years ago someone I knew asked what the difference between our religious and I talked about the God head and he said, that is what I believe and I said well your church doesn't.
This cannot be attributed to incompetence. He definitely knows better
Thank you for all of this, giving me strength!
Hi Guys Just wanted to say that this a great PODcast to represent The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.
I would like though to mention that we are not at first God's children but his Creation in his Image and likeness. Second we are his children when we follow/choose Jesus Christ.
Thanks
Thanks for doing this my gosh when I watched pbd and saw that guys comments about our church I was so mad! Haha
29:14 This. I’m not usually one interested in shaming others, but when folks like Knechtle put on this act I don’t see why holding up a theological mirror so they face the horror of their own ideas about God shouldn’t be the first response. A god who creates beings out of nothing with a nature that will lead them to eternal torment (all so a few can be part of his eternal cheer squad) is a level of depravity almost unfathomable, but that’s the god of their theology.
Why is Cardon freaking out this whole episode 😂
Brethren, if you can, please , please try not to use " like " gratuitously. Thanks !😊
You said Christ and Jesus are the same.
I love the PBD podcast!
What happened to Kwaku? Did he join the realm of apostates, or is he occupied seeking eternal companionship?
Religious bigotry 100%!! I have to side with Cardon on this one.
The video is 15% debunking Cliff, 15% gospel discussion, 50% Cardon screaming nonsensically, and 20% superchats.
Come on guys
Agreed. And I don't even think they really debunked Cliffe, especially on polygamy. You can't debunk a criticism that is actually true.
@@derekalineal For real. They blabbed for 2 hours and went through maybe 30 seconds of the guy talking.
And dbat is being generous giving this 15% debunking. Maybe 5%. And Cardon screaming is 60%.
@@derekalinealI think they use the term debunking far too liberally. The actual % of debunking is probably 1%. The rest is Cardon whining or screaming or saying, “you know what I’m sayin’?”
On these debunking vids I find Cardon to be by far the weakest element. He is a good interviewer, and something of a good entertainer. But his constant ....... I will say histrionics...... on these vids is tiring. But Brad and Luke are much better. He also does my least favourite thing for response vids, and that is interrupting the video mid comment and not letting the thought finish.
Also....... an intellectually honest orthodox Christian who believes in the trinity has to think Joseph Smith was wrong, and quite fundamentally so.
I also think the Trinity (whilst I think it is of course wrong) is a pretty interesting attempt to square the seemingly impossible circle of there being 1 God, Jesus being Divine, and Him being different to God himself. It is a difficult concept to get your head around sometimes.
@@neodigremo well said. the Trinity at least explains the beginning or creation of all things through a Creator. In Mormonism a god is always a god who had a god who had a god who had a god…and so on. JS said there were “intelligences” or intelligence matter in the beginning but it doesn’t address who was the first god or who created those intelligences (disregarding verses in Isaiah about no gods before God the Father of course).
Also, I imagine Cardon must be exhausted fighting against criticism with so much anger in his heart. As others have said elsewhere in this chat, you have to fight hate with love. Cardon is not good at that and seems anxious to do the opposite.
Pbd should let an actual Mormon come on and respond to Cliffs garbage
Polygamy existed under the mosaic law and I have never heard any evidence cited in the New Testament where Christ revoked it.. The only one I have ever found is the qualifications for Bishops in 1 Tim 3:2. This has always been an interesting requirement. If monogamy is the rule why state the obvious unless there was another option.
Mosaic law also states that adulterers, blasphemers, homosexuals, and rebellious children were to be stoned. If you're going to argue for polygamy, albeit poorly, as if it's following the mosaic law, then you must also follow the rest of the laws.
In genesis the dynamic between man and woman in marriage is clearly defined to be between one man and one woman. Every other instance in the Bible where polygamy is showcased always ends in disaster, and that is not by accident.
@@Cal-bo1sr Oh C'mon So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who were polygamists and Christ specifically says in Matthey 8:11 are in the kingdom of heaven are sinners and a disaster? If I remember right Jacobs polygamy saved his entire family as Joseph was sold into egypt and provided the way for his families survival during the famine. Not to mention the entire nation of Israel and the prophetic teachings and prophecies of Christ. Abrahams son Ishmael was a fulfillment along with Isaac of Gods promise to him that all nations of the earth would be blessed with his posterity. and even notable Christian pastors have stated that the law of moses has 3 different aspects to it. One is the Ceremonial, the second is the secular aspect, and the third is the moral. Christ did away with the ceremonial aspects of the law by stating he would not accept blood sacrifice any more and would be offered a broken hear and a contrite spirit but the secular and moral aspects of the law are still in effect and summed up in the 2 great commandments. Which Christ himself said I am not come to destroy the prophets but to fulfill as in Matt 5: 17. But only a fool would say everything in the old testament has been fulfilled. Half of the prophecies regarding Israel and the seed of Jacob are in the book of Daniel, Isiah, Malachi etc and are still pending fulfillment or were fulfilled with the establishment of the Church in the last days through the prophet Joseph Smith. As Christ said not one jot or tittle shall pass away but shall all be fulfilled. So trying to say why we don't follow the whole law of Moses is a very shallow interpretation of the old testament and the new testament in general. My statement still stands where is the scripture in the New Testament that Christ or the apostles specifically revoked polygamy? Especially when we have historical record that some Christian sects in the the centuries following the resurrection continued the practice? also I made a mistake in previous post that polygamy was under the Mosaic Law. That is True but the fact is that ploy gamy PREDATES the mosaic law and is therefore not a practice inherent to the law of Moses uniquely and would therefore not necessarily fall under Christs declaration of the fulfillment of the law itself.
@@gregbriggs4540
1. Isaac wasn't a polygamist. He had one wife, Rebekah, and had zero concubines.
2. Just because Abraham, Jacob, and I'll throw in David (a man after God's own heart) committed grave sins doesn't mean they were denied access to heaven. Being saved by grace, through believing in God and repenting, is what the Bible is about.
3. Yes, both Abraham and Jacobs polygamist relationships ended in disaster. It was only after God stepped in, after the sins were committed, and redeemed the situation that he good was able to come from them. Just because God allows something to happen doesn't mean he is in favor or supports it.
4. Yes, The mosaic law is divided up into 3 categories, ceremonial, civil, and moral. Polygamist relationships would fall under civil law which were to be upheld by the Israeli people OF THE TIME it was written. The same can be said for owning slaves. The reason these concessions were allowed was because, as we have seen abundantly throughout the Bible, life isn’t perfect and there are victims everywhere. It's important to understand the times of the Old Testament. It was a time of war, slavery, and widows. If a woman was to survive she needed a husband, and with the population of men declined due to battle there were little options. Slavery was also highly common on earth, practiced by every culture. God knew that the Israelites would take up slaves and would disobey them if he commanded them not to. So, he gave laws that would result in the best outcome possible FOR THAT TIME. After the turbulent times of the Old Testament, especially early OT things changed. The New Testament speaks out against both slavery and polygamy.
5. But lets go back to before the induction of sin. In Genesis he says a man would leave his mother and father to join with his WIFE, not wives. In Genesis God gives man dominion over the earth, not other men. In a sin free world polygamy isn’t part of the good institution of marriage God created. We further see polygamy unsupported in 1 Corinthians 7:1-2:
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband."
6. When it comes to prophecies, on multiple occasions Joseph Smith has been proven wrong. Not that his prophecies haven’t come to pass, but the ones he actually foretold literally were proven wrong in the time he said they would happen.
7. It’s important to understand that the mosaic law and the Old Testament are telling the story of the old covenant that leads up to the New Testament where a new covenant is formed. We currently live under the new covenant. That doesn’t mean the old covenant is completely obsolete as certain laws and practices have rolled over, such as the ten commandments which Jesus references in Matthew 22:36-40
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”
The first half references the first 5 commandments while the latter half is the last 5.
I would also like to point you to the parameters God gave Israel when it came to picking a king and what behavior that king should display. It’s a bit of a list but it’s found in Deuteronomy 17, but in 17:17 we find the third rule “The king must not take many wives”. Now some may ask “what is many”. Based on the Hebrew words it’s anything more than ONE. So both King David and Solomon lived in sin engaging in polygamy. Which as I have stated previously proved disastrous.
@@Cal-bo1sr
Please tell me where God in the old testament condemned Abraham and Jacob for their polygamous marriages? You won't find it.
your own bible contradicts your interpretation of Deut 17:17
2 Samuel 12:7-8
7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
So is Nathan a fallen prophet? By your interpretation God is tempting David to do evil which is in direct violation of James 1:13
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Also this would call into question
1 Kings 15:5
5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he COMMANDED him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. So is polygamy being a sin for david or not ? Is god giving david wives to sin or not? Apparently God didn't think so.
Your attack on Joseph's supposed non fulfilled prophecies is a shallow pathetic one is that many of the ones you anti's site are either conditional like Jonah and Nineveh's destruction for example or simply have not come to pass yet. And that isn't even the topic of this discussion If you wish I can provide you a link to a couple of videos that directly address these prophecies. (but my guess is you would dismiss it any way)
And while we are on the old covenant issue Why is the covenant for monogamy in genesis covered under your new covenant and not the other since both predate the mosaic law and the old covenant is the law of Moses. But the patriarchs exist before the old covenant so which is it. Can't have your cake and eat it to. So please site the the scripture where the new covenant abolished polygamy or monogamy. You will not find it. And you are right god did command and allow it (polygamy) under certain circumstances. so my question is if he can allow it once why not again to say he wouldn't is arrogant presumption. In fact the Book Of Mormon spells out quite clearly the circumstances where it is allowed in Jacob 2:30. Monogamy is the rule unless directed other wise
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me(Polygamy), I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things(Monogamy).Jacob condemned polygamy among the Nephites and specified the only time it was permitted by God.
@@gregbriggs4540
You're not going to find God specifically condemning Abrahams sin of taking matters into his own hands to bring forth a child, instead of trusting God. At the same time you're not going to find God, anywhere in the Bible condemning pedophilia either. So you're going to have to make a choice when it comes to where your moral justification beings and ends. Make no mistake God didn't need Abraham to lie with Hagar in order to fulfill his promise of making him into a great nation.
God doesn't need to openly condemn something for it to be a sin. Before Cain killed Abel God did not say "thou shalt not kill" but Cain knew exactly that it was a sin. As for the topic of 2 Samuel you brought up, as I stated before, during those times exceptions had to be made so that greater suffering wouldn't happen. This is God doing the best he can in a fallen world. It would be customary for the next King to take in the wives of the former to ensure that they and their children would not be cast out and destitute. The term "bosom" is often used in the Bible as a place of refuge or safe dwelling. Now one thing I admittedly can't answer is why Nathan said "wives" as it's only stated that Saul had one wife. This custom was a compromise ordained by God to make the best of a situation in a fallen world. It's the exception for the title and people of this era, not the rule.
So no Nathan isn't a fallen prophet. In fact the reason he came to meet David in the verses you mentioned was to deliver a message by God to judge David for killing Uriah....and taking his wife. Kinda crazy how that turned out.
My "attacks" on Smith aren't attacks. Just observations of factual history, and by biblical standards he would fall under being a false prophet. It is not my fault nor my burden to carry the fact he failed to live up to these standards.
As for your statements about the two covenants, polygamy, monogamy, and such, all I will say is what I said earlier. God makes concessions to deal with a fallen world/people. There was a time where rules were made because such practices were virtually unavoidable due to cultural and events outside of most peoples control. However, it's important to remember God is the designer. He doesn't make mistakes and in the garden of Eden he laid out what a righteous marriage union looked like: one man and one woman. If it were true that God wanted us to have multiple wives he would've made Adam multiple helpers, Paul would've said for men to take up multiple wives, and chief among all Jesus would've said so. In Matthew 19 Jesus is talking to religious the law-keepers on marriage and in response he says in verse 4-6:
He said to them, “Have you not read that He Who made them in the first place made them man and woman? 5 It says, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will live with his wife. The two will become one.’ 6 So they are no longer two but one. Let no man divide what God has put together.”
A man will....live with his wife. Not wives and not concubines. Wife. The sentiment I'm trying to get across of God making concessions is also seen further down in verse 8:
Jesus said to them, “Because of your hard hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. It was not like that from the beginning."
The fact Jesus acknowledges that it was not like that from the beginning, and that Moses allowed them because of their hardened hearts shows how it is a concession to work with a fallen world. You don't have to agree with me, but I feel there is ample evidence within the Bible to promote monogamy thru Gods original design and the turmoil that comes from polygamy, especially when it's fueled by unbridled desire.
As for your statements about the regarding the Book of Mormon, I don't see the Book of Mormon as an authority or to be true for a number of reasons. So I won't refute what you say it claims, nor will I concede to it. For me, no book holds equal or supplementary authority to the Bible.
I feel like brad is trying to zig zag the whole Satan is our brother thing. Y'ALL, we ALL are brothers and sisters. Satan is Christ's brother. He is our brother. This is silly.
Maybe to you.
If you took a second to listen to what I was actually saying, you’d realize that i’m saying Protestants don’t understand that the same way - that’s the difference I was trying to clarify.