What Size Whitewater Kayak? | Go Big! I After Hours Podcast
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- Buying a Dagger Kayak online? Please use this link: rb.gy/pv8h8k
Need outfitting materials? Use this link to find what I use on Amazon: rb.gy/7xc70c
Choosing the right size whitewater kayak can be really hard. Most of the time the sizing information provided by whitewater kayak manufacturers is vague and confusing. In some cases sizing appears to span from the smallest person that can fit with all the provided shims installed to the largest person that can fit with no outfitting at all.
It is hard to begrudge a kayak maker for trying to make their boats appeal to the largest number of whitewater kayakers possible, and account for different tastes, but the process of choosing a boat is hard enough already. Here are some tips for figuring out what size boat will fit you best.
Featured Kayaks are the Pyranha Machno and Pyranha Jed
MountainmanOutdoors.com
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We've been having "inside baseball" conversations about whitewater kayaking and the paddle-sports industry for years. The After Hours Podcast is our way of letting the average paddler peak behind the hype and the social media posts. We hope you appreciate us trying to increase transparency and cut through nonsense and rumors. This is a pet project we do on our own time, and while we admit it is at the risk of annoying some of our friends and sponsors, we promise we have the best of intentions.
Key Words: Whitewater, White Water, Kayak, Kayaking, Raft, Rafting, Canoe, River, Adventure, Extreme, Dagger Kayaks, Wavesport Kayaks, Perception Kayaks, Jackson Kayaks, Jackson Adventures, Eric Jackson, Dane Jackson, NIck Troutman,
Buying a Dagger Kayak online? Please use this link: rb.gy/pv8h8k
Need outfitting materials? Use this link to find what I use on Amazon: rb.gy/7xc70c
Great video as always, Alex!
As someone who is an “in between” range typically, I’m 5’ 11” 185 - 190lbs - medium vs large boats. For class II-III overnight trips and a good creeker quiver boat, would you recommend a medium or large Dagger Code? My fear is the large with the extra volume would feel like an absolute tank. Thanks - keep the videos coming!🫵🫡🤘🛶
Large, and plan to build your strength to grow into the boat.
Absolutely right on critique of the stated weight ranges being stated too broadly by the manufacturer.
Thanks! Unfortunately nothing has changed
Excellent reasoning and well argued.
This is exactly the info I’ve been looking for to help me decide between the Gnarvana Medium or Large; I demoed both this week but despite how fun, floaty, playful, yet stable it was… the large felt so… large. At 220-230lbs I still thought I might be better off downsizing, but I think you’re right about the trade offs favoring a larger boat.
In your Gnarvana review you also mentioned you were going to go with the large this season and this helped me understand your thinking.
Now off to order my new boat!
Glad I could help! You're gonna love it!
This video was so helpful. It made me feel better about my purchase and the fact I need to bring more strength. I’m 5’6” and 148#. I was shopping for a kayak and the salesman put me in a small zen. My legs and hips were a tight squeeze in shorts and a tshirt with everything loosened. He kept insisting it was fine. I left and ended up buying a medium zen from a club replacing their boats. My learning plateau’d and had me wondering if I had too much boat.
I'm glad! At ~150 you're going to be able to choose between small and medium most of the time. Sounds like this was a purchase without on-water demoing. I would change that going forward to make the best decisions.
Alex, I'm 6'1" and currently about 167lbs. I expect to gain some muscle, as I'm working out and recovering from having lost muscle over the past 20 years. I'm looking at getting a Jackson Antix 2.0. 20 years ago I was a raft guide and kayaked class 3 and 4 in western NC (and guided rafts on the Lower Gauley some) over the course of 3 years, out on the river all summer, lots of trips. I expect that I will get comfortable playing on rivers again pretty quickly, and have more interest in playing around and taking my time, and little interest in taking risks. I'm 53, and ego is not my motivator, but love of water and being out playing in it. What do you think about choosing either a medium or large Antix 2.0? I would be at the bottom of the floater weight (without gear) on the large. I expect that would give me more confidence running the river, but I wonder if it will make playing more challenging? What are your thoughts? - One other thought, I would probably use it on occasion to play on lakes with my family. I expect the longer length in the large would make it a bit better for lakes, yes?
If you aren't worried about standing the boat up on the stern then I would say large would be a comfortable dry ride. However, you will need a lot more strength to throw it around than you would in the medium.
The biggest problem I see in advising people to go bigger in creek boats is that the excessive width of many large boats impedes performance and edge control in the hands of a medium sized paddler. Large sized boats come in a range of widths so this depends on the model, but for those with 27” wide hulls or greater, it’s an important factor. Going up in size can also require much greater investment of time and effort in getting the outfitting padded out and fitted right.
90% of people already aren't spending enough time outfitting so I don't see the harm.
As for the width, I really don't think this is an issue for most people. Some smaller paddlers don't have the torso length to make the switch ergonomic, but if you're between sizes then it isn't going to be a big deal.
6'5" 254lb /196cm 115kg & oldish, Jackson MonStar & Large Nirvana here.. haven't found a half slice yet...
Burn 3XL good also, super carvie up front.
Check out the Super Ego and the Super Clean
I have a medium Jed at 130-140 lbs and I struggle to get the bow under for bow stalls. I can sorta get it to sternie. I love how this boat surfs, but damn its hard to do freestyle stuff.
If you have to you can always step down, but you will loose a lot of that speed and looseness surfing
This video is so helpful! By the way, WHERE are you paddling in this video, sick!
Thanks! This is the Moose in NY
Nice video thanks for the information. Being very athletic and more on the weightlifter side of training I find it incredibly frustrating they make all these awesome boats for 150-190 pounds folks. It's like a whole new level when you are over 215-220 pounds and shopping. I want the ability to go whitewater and river boating mostly. Hope I said that right...still picking up the lingo. I think I will have to go large even over medium. I don't want to be sinking with just me in the boat. Going to a festival to demo this weekend. Wish me luck
Nathan try the Medium Gnarvana. That is one medium that will handle it. There will also be a M/L Flux coming out very shortly
@@AlexBarham Thanks for the info. Is that the Nirvana model? I was looking at them this weekend. I liked that one quite a bit.
@@AlexBarham sorry that is the name lol. Its by Jackson right? It holds like 400 plus right?
It is the newer version. Annoyingly confusing I know. Check out my review for more info.
Have you or thought about doing vid for big guys? Above 250 I’ve really only found two monster n Bigfoot are there any others? Sure prob sm percentage
I could.... yeah maybe. Have a look at the Large Code, Gnarvana and Flow
Thanks for this, Alex. I think one of the reasons some paddlers prefer smaller boats is that they feel they are more (not less) responsive: the front rails and parting line are more easily engaged, and more of the boat is in the water (i.e. the water line is longer)--and they don't like the floaty, bathtubby feeling of the big baots. I suspect this may be particularly true for boaters who grew up on smaller boats or have a slalom background. I also wonder how much difference trim makes: you can be in the right size of boat, but sit in the wrong position, and it feels all wrong...
Trim is very important once you're in the right size boat, but if you're in the wrong boat it's not going to make a huge difference.
Unfortunately there's no hard and fast rule for trimming. I usually aim to be slightly bow up, then start fidgeting around in the boat until I have the sweet spot and outfit around it.
THANK YOU, FOR THIS GREAT ADVICE!!! MUCH APPRECIATED!!
You're very welcome
Weight range problems: A zen3 is rated for 240 lbs. A large Ozone is rated to 265. The zen large is great for me and the large Ozone is way too tippy for me.
No, that is a width and design philosophy problem. The Zen3 is supposed to be more stable than anything else on the market and is VERY wide. The Ozone is supposed to be hyper playful and stand up on the stern. As such it is quite edgy, especially if you have one from the first year when the seat seems to have been higher.
Try ripping the seat pad out of your Ozone and sitting on the plastic.
This was an awesome video. When you rolled under the water in those giant waves I thought that was the last of you, and you were just playing around. Wow I am not ready to try that stunt.
Can you explain how you track perfectly down the middle of the narrow winding creek in the first boat footage? You don't appear to be paddling very much. I suspect leaning the boat produces some edging that turns somewhat. Again great job.
There's some advice here : ua-cam.com/video/mfp5R6OXmps/v-deo.html
Mainly this comes down to reading water, maintaining speed, and steering with your body, not your paddle.
Great piece. I'm 5'5 but like 155lbs, weight said medium for Jitsu but I was too small to make it work as I couldn't get the leverage, gone back to s mall and SO much improvement. Happy Christmas man
At 155 you may find that different models perform better or worse for you because of your weight. Sizing can be really strange.
Merry Christmas to you too!
Am a beginner kayaking can roll on a lake easily but looking to start class one and two rapids am 6 4 280 know I need to try first but any starter advice
Large Gnarvana or Code will be your best bets
Great channel , excellent discussions. I'm a big guy 6'2' 220......ish. Im mostly interested kayak camping . Sort of been eyeball the dagger katana 10.4. I'd really like a a play boat to build some skills. Tried a Jackson 4.0 yesterday, that was a no go for me. Referencing the comment above, I see the Monstar is no longer available. Any other options out there? Appreciate the help
The Katana is pretty good. The other classic is the Remix XP 10
I'm not sure what the issue was, but at your height and weight the 4.0 L should fit fine with the seat slid back a little.
Thanks for the reply. Hmmm, my knees were well above the skirt line even with the seat maxed out. I’m headed out this weekend again. Maybe I’ll try one more time
I just just found a Superfun a few hours north of me. Could you provide some insight into that setup? Much TIA
I don't recommend river-running playboats.
You're awesome! Thanks for all the great vids and info!
You got it!
New to kayaking here... How important is the volume described in specs? What exactly does it mean? If you’ve already explained previously, can you share link? Thanks
Don't obsess over volume. You'll probably never notice a change smaller than 5%. That said it does seem to be a really good way to quickly communicate the size of a boat. Most people can picture a 55 gallon drum. If I tell you that the average medium playboat is 52-56 gallons and 6 feet long suddenly you have a really good idea of scale.
Like I said, eventually you'll come to have a sense for what the numbers mean. So for example I know that the L Newmad is ~96 gallons, and the L Machno is ~98. When Liquidlogic announced that the Alpha is coming in a 90 gallon size I know that all 3 boats are the same length, so the Alpha will be less beefy.
That make sense?
Alex Barham Yes and thanks for the prompt and thorough response! Trying not to obsess but its frustrating nonetheless to not have a clear understanding here. Relocating to Columbus GA, where class II-IV will be readily available to me.
Workin with local outfitter and we narrowed down Remix XP or Katana 10.4. (6’2”, 240 lb, and broad shouldered). The Remix is an inch shorter but 3/4” wider, with 105 gallons compared to 104 Katanwa. The cockpits are close in specs too.
I can’t tell a significant difference between the two only that the Katana is about 7 pounds heavier. Where does this extra weight come from? Material? Also, there is a $250 difference. Again, why? Branding?
Travis,
Okay first off those are crossover boats and I hate putting people in crossover boats just to see them progress beyond the boat's scope in a season. If you're dedicated to whitewater the Nirvana L, Large Machno, and L Nomad are all solid choices.
Weight varies based on shape, exact plastic resin used, oven operator skill, company priorities, warranty rates, etc. We aren't talking competition freestyle, so don't worry about it. Dagger does tend to be the heaviest in class which I believe is a material density and quantity thing. Many blame the outfitting, but as someone that swaps boat guts on a regular basis I have to say I can hardly tell a difference.
Price varies for many of the same reasons as weight because with more material comes more material cost. Additionally you have to factor in warranty, outfitting quality, and a few other things. Remember that no one is getting rich in the paddlesports industry. Buy the right gear for you. You aren't getting ripped off, it just costs more to make.
Hey Alex, tried a few boats and ended up choosing one of your suggestions, the Machno. Thanks again for the advice!
Hey Alex, what do you think is the best ww beginner kayak to step into?
It is going to depend a lot on what you're looking to do in the sport. A quick one of each to start looking at would be the Machno, Antix 2.0, Jed, and Mamba
Thanks Alex. I am currently have this debate in my head. Heaver side of a medium vs lighter side of a large. Wish I could demo but the world has other plans for the moment.
Lighter side of Large is always my pick. Like I said, sometimes it is a little rough in really big water, but it is a winner the rest of the time.
@@AlexBarham 185 with no gear on. Thinking 9RII large
Alex; I appreciate your work and knowledge; One quesion for you; Are some creekers easier to roll than others? You never/never mention ease of rolling a boat. You are young/ a professional kayaker and run
class 4-5 routinely but there are others who are older, class 3-4 boaters that rolling a very large boat is more of a challenge. I began kayaking in old school boats 24" wide displacement boats that roll really nice. I had a 1st gen Large Burn that was much harder due to high side walls and increased volume. Rolling is a critical function of creeking to me. I rather be a little slower and more sluggish but have a solid roll. You should develop a rolling index for a boat-put the RPM as standard for easy rolling. Maybe the Large Burn one of the harder ones. Why the reluctance to speak of rolling-come off your high horse.
Haha hey now!
Perhaps this is a blind spot, but in my mind none of these boats are harder to roll than any of the others except the Element which I brought up. Compared to the boxes we used to call boats like the Vision, Astro, Transformer, and Y that I came into the sport with everything is so easy to roll now that I take it for granted.
I do these reviews with the expectation that you'll still go and demo before you buy. Rolling is part of a demo to me. As I said if one is noticeably hard to roll I'll call it out, but modern outfitting and design have taken the edge off most rolling issues.
@@AlexBarham Ok, is there no difference in rolling ability of the 82 gal Med Machno and the 98 gal Large Machno? Thanks for your note and knowdlege as always.
@@patyounger8904 Generally if there is a difference it will be between two different designs, not sizes of the same boat
I recently picked up a Jackson Antix in large. I am 6' 2" and only weigh 150 so i am quite a bit lighter than the min recommended weight. I can not fit into a medium but feel very unstable and loose in the boat. Is there anything I can do to help the situation im in?
Yikes. Yeah I would not have put you into an Antix. You'd have fit better into a Ripper, Braaap or something. Try just padding thr hell out of it
@@AlexBarham I tried the medium but was only able to fit with the seat as far back as it can go and still felt cramped. Thanks for the help. I have no problem just paddling the crap out of it!
happy holidays and merry paddling 🤙🍻
Merry Xmas!
Alex - You publish great reviews. I would love to know your height and weight?
Thanks Dane. I'm 5'10" and fluctuate from 190-210
So if im 125lbs im right in between small and medium? Well i got a nirvana med hope it was the right choice, I deff feel like a floater!
125 is very solidly a small. 150 is usually the minimum ideal weight range for the average medium kayak.
This is something I'm struggling with. I'm 6'0 and 129kg or 284lbs currently I have the katana the only other boat suitable for me is the lettemann granate which I'm hoping to get a demo of this year
You're definitely going to have a hard time, but there are still options. See if the Large Machno will work. If not the Large Karma will be fine with it's ~107 gallons of volume.
@@AlexBarham yea looking at the machno but its reccomend max weight is down as 130kg going to demo one of them too. Just got a feeling once I put dry suit,deck,pfd,helmet and have paddle in my hands my weight is over the 130kg but I do know they have loads of volume. I've been using my clubs large kanarli and I find that confidence sucking
@@SuperTightheadprop3 I think it'll be fine from what I've seen. If not the Karma's got you. The OG is also above 100 gallons, but Waka's reputation for being relatively fragile and lack of warranty support is a bad mix for big guys.
Hi Alex, I purchased a Dagger Nomad Large. The first two trips out were on a calm lake and a slow moving flat river. Both times produces the same results. As I would get the boat moving faster I could hold a straight line for a while and then the cross wind would blow the boat into an out of control spin. I did not have this problem going into the direction of a head or tail wind. Until I have better control I am not thinking I am ready for whitewater. I was expecting with more speed I would hold a straight line better. What do you think? Am I expecting too much out of this boat. I have been told that these whitewater boats are difficult to hold a straight line in flat water, now I know that to be very true. Will it perform better in whitewater or will I have the same problem?
Here's some food for thought:
ua-cam.com/video/mfp5R6OXmps/v-deo.html
community.nrs.com/duct-tape/author/alexbarham/
Two things to remember here:
- Whitewater boats are built to perform in current. This is especially true for the Nomad which is meant for rock bouncing. There's no keel line and minimal chines because this is a purpose built craft
- No one is born a Class 4 paddler. It is a skill set that's unique to itself and you have to expect to focus on learning each baby step till mastery if you want to be a really good paddler. That's why there are so few whitewater kayakers out there. In other words "This is normal"
Hey Alex I'm 155 and bought a jackson zen 3.0 large think that is ok i had no clue when bought it
So the lessons learned here would be check the tech info for every boat before you buy, and if you can always demo.
You're on the bottom end of the weight range, but if it is working for you then just enjoy it. You can always sell it and try a more aggressive boat in a medium size down the road. Paddling a big boat will build strength and pound the need to edge into your head.
6’4 265 need help finding a nice kayak
Playboat? Creeker? Skill level?
Alex Barham wanted white water kayak also for just a nice hiking kayak how’s the old town loon 126
Try the Dagger Zydeco
Alex Barham where is the best deal for new
I find it so hard being 145lb because I only see S and L used kayaks available. There's one that's 165-275lb that I really want but I feel like I'd be too much of a floater
Would I be too light for the 165lb min >.>
Yeah there is no way buying a boat where you are 20lbs outside the weight range is a good idea, unless you plan on using it for over-nighters and you are going to add that weight in gear.