@Dave Micolichek 😂 Yeah, you’re right. It’s a Class A filter that puts out a good amount of heat too. As you said, it is a simple one, but it doesn’t really start to filter for at least a half hour. Lol
Build one of Nelsons low powered amps (amp camp kits) over at diy audio and you will find out quick how good low powered class a amps designed with minimum parts and a elegant design can sound😀
@33Ddg209Ret7 I wasn't familiar with the AER speaker so I went to their website and saw the coolest looking single driver, open baffle, clear acrylic speakers! If they sound half as good as they look (I realize this cabinet is not what you have) you've really got something there. My system is also DIY, 4'x8' sheets of subfloor material, standing on end and open in the back. They are not in my living room. A 15" Altec 515b does the bass, an Altec 203b 2 cell compression driven horn is my current midrange with a RAAL dipole ribbon tweeter for the top end. The Altecs are both vintage, circa 1960. I have three non-commercial 45 tube, 2 watt directly heated single ended triode amps, one of which I built myself, but currently I have a Nelson Pass designed Amp Camp Amp (that's it's name), built from a kit, 6 watts single ended transistor, driving the tweeter, with two of the SETs powering the Altecs. The crossover is active. These will do quiet and delicate, but they also get loud and deep without any harshness. The tweeter is 93db efficient, with the bass and horns 102db and 114db respectively. If I could hear no other speaker for the rest of my life, that would be just fine, I like this system that much.
@33Ddg209Ret7 I have never seen them, much less heard them. They were designed by Lukasz Fikus, The Polish engineer who started Lampizator. I used to follow his blog before he started his company, his advice helped my enjoyment of digital music greatly. I have owned two of his DACs, and although I have not heard very many top level modern DACs, the sound from his is superb. He posted the instructions for making that speaker in his blog over 10 years ago. lampizator.eu/SPEAKERS/PROJECTS/P17/Endorphine%20from%20Kingston%20Kitchen.html
One can build some of them first watt amps over at diy audio. Where else can you build a amp designed by Nelson and get questions and feedback on the amp your building😀
I have a Crown XLi2500, a "lower end" AB amp, a lot of power. It does a nice job especially with rock, electronic, blues. Not trying to say it is HiFi or anything, but definitely good quality, good power, neutral sound. Great for it's purpose.
The original DC300 was fully discrete. The DC300A used a ua 739 in the front end. Both measured flawlessly for their day, but sounded terrible. Many accused them of having very poor TIM performance. I'm not sure if that's true or not. The frequency response dropped like a rock just above 20kHz, and it used massive amounts of negative feedback.
Remember a friend (who is now running his music gear store he started in 1985) playing a turntable through a Phase Linear power amp and big Community Light and Sound horn loaded PA speakers. Sounded great at the time (~1976) or at least LOUD and fairly clean. It was five years later when I began gravitating toward "high end" with a Harmon Kardon PM660 amp and Infinity RSb speakers. PS Audio's Infinity affiliation is definitively affinitive relatively infinitely for me.
Here's the thing. Unless you are sitting a LONG distance away from very inefficient speakers, at normal listening volumes you are probably never going to use more than a few watts and 90% of the music you listen to will be in the 0.1 to 1 watt range. The first watt is the most important.
Bruno Rivademar Very true, I thought I was listening to my music at a loud volume and figured I'd check with my multimeter. It was about 3V peaks on my 85db sensitivity Chane A1.4s... About 6-7 feet away from them too. To anyone wondering what 3v means, that's under 1 watt on my 8ohm Chanes.
That Crown DC300 could start a car. But they also did exceedingly well with difficult and challenging speaker loads. The stability was stunning. Also, since guys were trying to have rock concerts in their homes back in the day, nobody came close to the power and fidelity that the Crown could deliver. The specs were about as good as anything before or at the time and in many ways, the DC300 did very well in critical listening reviews. Stereophile gave it about as glowing a review as the voice-coils were getting on JBL drivers all over the kingdom. Anyhow, I've had some pro audio amps in and out of my systems, always willing to give one a try. But they never satisfy with all of the nuance and sonic realism that hi-fi companies strive to create. But damn, the Crown DriveCore class D amps offer insanely great value and performance with many liking their hi-fi sound.
I wonder if PS Audio ever thought of building a PA power amp.Used to own a Chameleon Audio 1 unit high amp(Not class D) sounded very nice whatever volume
Thank you for the explanation as usual, Paul. No mention of Nelson Pass and his company, First Watt? I think Nelson AND Paul McGowan are both living legends of audio!
Big fan of Nelsons here and all his contributions to the diy audio community. Where else can you build some the best low powered class A first watt amps...and get help from nelson himself and from Wayne (his wizards assistant at pass labs) and other very smart builders? One listen to Nelsons amp camp kits and you will be hooked! Be assembling mine soon!
Yes! Absolutely! It’s so funny you bring the diy thing up. I’m building an F5 Turbo V2 right now! I managed to track down a new set of genuine Toshiba LSK170’s & LSJ74’s too! Just gotta buy the Dissipante chassis, and I’m in business. Can’t wait!
@@NickP333 it's ok😀 I'm starting out building a pair of amp cam 1.6 monos. It's funny you mention the f5 turbo. That is literally the next build I have been studying. Nice to hear you got your genuine Toshiba. The diy store seems to be out of stock on them alot. Where did you get them? You building yours with 2 power transformers? What brand, VA rating and voltage transformers? Been doing lots of studying and reading on that amp (and the aleph j amp). This would be a huge step for me to take building this. May have to get help along the way but I think it will be rewarding😀
@Brandon Burr That’s awesome that you’re doing a pair of AC 1.6 monoblocks. So, you’re on diyaudio too, huh? What’s your handle? Mine is: hiwattnick. I’ll add you as a friend. I bought the Toshibas from: www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-2SJ74-2SK170-LAB-MATCHED-QUAD-to-0-03mA-AND-4mV-7-8ma-range-/253603371917 Nelson, himself said they’re the real deal. The dude has tons of em. Lucky SOB! A little pricey, but when it comes to my HiFi components, I try and buy the best parts. It’s well worth it in the end. As far a transformers, I’m using Antek, cuz I also built an EAR 845p phono preamp clone using Antek, and it sounds amazing! Yes, I’m going with 2 of em in the F5T. Firstly, a true dual mono seems like a cleaner overall build. As I said, I don’t skimp when it comes to my HiFi stuff. Do it right once, and you’re set for life. I also bought 2 in case I ever wanna make a pair of monoblocks. They’re 24V AC on the secondaries. The diy audio forum is so amazing. As you mentioned, look at who you’ve got to ask about basically building a First Watt amp, Nelson and Wayne. That’s insanely awesome to me! Building your own equipment makes much more sense to me than buying it in certain cases. My phono pre is built WAY better than the original. Much better components, and you get to dial that shit in yourself so it sounds like you like it! 😃
High power PA sound is quite often running at 5-10 % thd... big amps are designed for power and stability only ... High end audio amps should behave the same at 1watt or at its max rms rating ... what makes an audio amp musical and really inviting is it's ability to be transparent with zero phase shifts across the frequency spectrum... and above all to handle many many different waveforms with no intermodulation whatsoever.
Then the Crown DC300A should have been great, it had very little phase shift, down to 0 at the bass end. the IM and TIM were as low as anything from that era. By your same criteria tube amps are terrible. Many people would argue those points.
My Name ~in PA application they're not "tweeters" they are HF compression horns and most have either a seperate amp to drive them or they'll have very steep roll off filters and thermistor limiters
I am a fan of John Curl's work and he mostly designs Parasound's products. They are beautifully built (in Taiwan) and are excellent value for the money.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks Paul for answering! That is what I currently own, the Halo a31, which is powering my front 3 channels. I agree that they are great high value products. I do have a PS Audio power cable coming out of it ;). And it damn sure makes a difference in sound quality! Thanks again Paul for making great videos!!
@My Name If I were going to use a Crown for anything fidelic it would have to be a class I like the Itech or DCI. I think the old DC300 was class H maybe? Crown used to offer a Reference series which I am told was pretty good.
The DC300 and A were class AB + B. They would run the drivers at class AB and they would run the speaker line up to a few milliwatts then the outputs would take over. The Reference series used the same scheme except they were bridged amps.
@@johnhodgson5313 Wow. I guess Class AB had it's growth phase too. I always thought they were Class H because they really were not that impressive. What was your take on the Reference? I never heard them. I took a Crown (Macrotech 600 I think) from the live side and brought it into the studio one day just to hear it against our Haflers and Yamaha. We just used the Yami to drive headphones but as it turned out it was a pretty reasonable amp as well. The Crown was fairly smooth and of course had power for days but not very good detail. The Crown Reference was pretty expensive compared to the Haflers and they were pretty much the hot ticket in studio amps at the time. Late 90's btw. I had always meant to ask the rep to send over one to see but I was always too busy when she was around.
If the amp had been class H they could have made it smaller, the heatsink wouldn't have been so big and the transformer could have been smaller. I find it interesting to note that the 300 and 300A used a 1.2kw transformer and rated the amp just overt 500 watts total output. I am looking at a CE1000 and the transformer is MUCH smaller. I would give almost anything to have a day or 2 with a Reference. I talked with Clay Barclay who had a lot to do with the Reference and he said get either 2 Power Line 4 or PS400 and run them both bridged. It won't be a Reference but it will be good. I haven't done that yet.
hi ,i want to make this nelson pass f6 amp and i got toroidal transformer at home but its not 18 volt secondary but 24 volts so i got 6 volts excess. my question is. can i use this transformer! is this a good solution to put resistors between capacitors to reduce voltage supply! and what resistor value will be correct and watt of the resistor so this amp works with 2 amperes about.thanks for your help you can see the shematic at diyaudio
Best video yet and Paul Nailed it !!! One and done . If you can't get the first watt right all the rest will follow . I'll name one amp that has been ignored for years McIntosh MA6100 . Not the greatest specs or the greatest power but one of the juiciest amps ever made . This amp wasn't made for specs, it was made for music love making . Best example in getting the first watt right is speakers with 106 db 1 watt 1 meter efficiency. Okay I have made the argument that efficiency is not done across a full 20 Hz to 20 kHz width but at 1K but still that one watt is going to make some noise . I guess if your speakers are 80 db 1 watt 1 meter I wouldn't worry about those first 15 watts (this video is not for you). Sad emoji for you and ha ha emoji for me .
I second that. I was waiting as well. Pass labs amps are some of the best sounding. Definately has made some classics that have stood the test of time!
@joshua43214 😂 LOL! I certainly was, but it appears he didn’t have to, cuz all the Pass fans are going crazy! Nelson Pass himself is the one who originally said, “the first watt is the most important watt”, hence, First Watt amplifiers, of course. 🙂
A lot of Home Theater enthusiasts use Crown and Behringer amps for LARGE (15" +) subwoofers because of the wattage they put out. Not so much for the mains but definitely for sub, say 120Hz, stuff.
When transistor amps first came to market they exhibited specs 'better' than valve amps. Unfortunately these specs were at full power. At low volumes, as no account had been taken of the cross over region of class 'B' amps, the distortion was horrendous. Only the 'tips' of the signal reached the speaker at low volume. The rest got lost. There is also the presence of background circuit noise that intrudes at low volume. A mains hum which annoys at setting one, may be inaudible at setting 11. It is possible to design 'full range' preamps with 'slow' ic's such as the 741. A lot of mixer desks apparently had them before the likes of the 5534 came along with a nice wide bandwidth and low noise. You just have to take account of the slew rate limitations of the beast, limiting the gain accordingly. Modern power amps are much better behaved in the cross-over region (using class AB), or avoid it altogether by using class 'A'. How successful they are at driving speakers at low volume is another question. This was one of the driving forces for single driver speakers without crossovers to muddy the sound.
I remember the Crown DC300 amps and one of their advertising claims was that it could drive a 70.7 distribution line directly from its 8 ohm output. I am sure it could, but I would think it would still suffer huge losses in the lines to the speakers and coverage would be weak ant the end of the lines.
It did produce 70 volts at the speaker terminals bridged as does any 600 watt at 8 ohm amp. As for losses, a 70 volt line doesn't care how it gets the 70 volts, once it leaves the amp the line losses will be the same. A funny thing happened the first time I did this. We used old Bogens and TOA to drive temporary installs and people would hook up little 8 ohm speakers in odd areas despite being warned not to. This would bring the amp driving that line to its knees. We switched to a bridged Crown and someone hooked up their little speaker. We heard a very loud sound from some distant corner and then it stopped abruptly. I would have loved to see the smoke show.
I used to service commercial sound systems that operated on a 70.7 volt line. When an 8 ohm speaker without a line transformer is added, it appears as a "short" on the system. It will play very loud and shut off all the other speakers in the system. They rarely burned up though. This was rather common because people that did not know better would sometimes add a speaker and not even realize that they caused the system to fail. I can see why it burned up with the crown amp though. I think you are right about the Crown amp's ability to run the system though.
Well Paul how come may of the top recoding studios use Crown PSA and SA2s ? why dont you explain the importance of amp type design A/Ab ,D etc. since the effect of crossover and bias distortion at milliwatts is the key to sounding true at low watts. and dont forget the slew rate which is a time domain effect on the sound. yes it takes longer to reproduce a larger signal (uv/sec). limited by the amps active elements(tubes or semi) so its relitivley easy to design a 1 watt amp. with faithful reproduction pass thru. you worry about dithering with DAC dont you??
Paul, when you say the first watt is class -A and then goes to class D etc etc etc... does it mean that if i listen at 2 watts the first one will still be provided by the class A section?
Yes, but let's not think of this as separate things. It's the same amplifier in the first watt or the last watt. If you only listen to 2 watts and the first watt is biased to be class A then yes, you're listening to music in class A. The point is that once you get past a certain point in loudness the biasing of the amplifier isn't as important as the first bit because low level detail is what's majorly affected.
I think you mean class B not D. D is another bag of worms entirely. What you are essentially listening to is two separate amplifiers amplifying the positive and negative parts of the signal separately. In class B (actually AB) each amplifier is biased to stray a little over the zero volt boundary, so around the zero volt point both amplifiers are amplifying the signal and driving the speaker. If the amplifiers did not have a bias to have this shared region (pure class B), there would be a gap where no signal was being amplified, even though there was a a low level input. This mangles the signal, particularly at low levels. This shared region can be made very wide, giving what is described as 'push-pull class A', which may on signal peaks lead to just one output device conducting, not both, so it becomes class B for that peak.
Right, i feel Paul missed the answer on this one. The whole first watt issue came about because solid state has a basic property of improving sound quality as you turn it up. Pretty much all solid state amps sound best close to their limit. But most people do not listen at those volumes, and some amps sound really bad really low. I personally do most of my listening between 0.01 and 0.1 W and yes 0.1W is pretty loud on 91dB efficient speakers. So getting the first watt right is paramount because that's where the amp will spend most of its lifetime. And it is also the most difficult watt to get right.
Watt? I had a Harmon Kardon 30watt reciever. I always wondered how much power it was putting out so I bought a wattmeter from RadioShack and found that at a pretty loud at only 2 Watts. Sure it would put our more under peak loads, but it still wasn't that much. A while later my buddy invited his friends and we had a party. One of the guys wanted to hear what my stereo sounded like so I fired it up. It was about mid May at the time and when I put on Pink Floyd's we don't need no education with the door and windows open and cranked it loud enough to enjoy, we heard cheering. I stuck my head out the door and looked at the High School Football field next door. We discussed what might be going on because it was long long passed Football season, so one the the guys ran over to take a loot. He peeked through the vines that were growing out the fence, and he came running back, beer in had yelling turn it off. When he got the the apartment I asked what was going on, and the school was holding its graduation. So we shut ever thing off closed up and turn out the lights. Sure enough no sooner than we went silent the police showed up shining their light through our window. After a few minutes the left. But it didn't take much more than maybe 5 or 10 Watts to get arrested! Luckily they didn't knock on our door. There wasn't much room in the apartment for fifteen guys!
@@NickP333 lol 🤣 Well, I was just watching some older videos of Paul again and recognized: Nipper is missing. But I follow his vlog since those Nipper-times and can't remember the episode it was gone. 🤔😀
@Szilard Matral Maybe we need to do a bit of sleuthing, as I’ve also been following his vlog for years at this point. First one to figure it out gets a free BHK 250! 🤣😂
Low level details is the sounds in the music that is way softer than the rms level. If you have heard a very good resolving system, you will know what I'm talking about. Most people have not heard it in their lifetime.... unfortunately.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 Thank you, I did not want to assume what it meant, I also thought it might be resolution 70 hz. and below , example when a cello, electric bass and organ are all doing low notes being able to separate instruments in to layers. Some pipe organs used in churches can really become complicated buy them selves .
@@oysteinsoreide4323 example , E. POWER Biggs Toccata and Fugue Played from RTR , will test any subwoofer or large floorstaders that go low. sad how few subs can do this recording when he starts working the foot pedals. And everything goes really low, nothing under a 10 inch driver can make any sense of this recording at lower frequencies.
Lord this guy needs to go read some spec sheets and do some real world comparisons because he clearly hasn’t. The crown DC300 was built back when crown wasn’t exclusively pro audio and was a remarkable highly resolving amplifier that was actually used almost exclusively in home audio applications and is to this day one of the best sounding amplifiers I’ve ever heard at any price. Remarkable sound stage can be achieved from that amplifier. My pops still happens to own one and still uses it to this day. I have the little brother which was the DC150 and it to is an incredible amp. Almost identical specs but half the power. I don’t currently use it because my JBL 6290’s sound slightly better and have way more headroom but that doesn’t change the fact that Paul is constantly talking out his ass on some of these topics. I know because I have vast hands on experience with these very amplifies and am pretty well versed in crowns product history. These days I wouldn’t be caught dead using a crown amp in a resolving system but back in the day they made incredibly good amps for both pro and home applications. Regarding the first watt issue, as the greatest amplifier designer who’s ever lived Mr. Nelson Pass would say if the first watt doesn’t sound good who cares what the rest of them sound like after that. And yes I have experience with Pass amplifiers. Yet another reason why I’m comfortable saying Paul is full of crap regarding the regarding the crown DC300. As Paul would say end of rant. I didn’t mean to go on a tangent but lord sometimes he just says some off the wall stuff that has no basis in actual reality
There are so many things that can go wrong from 1W up to (say) 100W as the current draw increases, heat spreads and various sections of the circuit could be drawn out of linearity - among other things. But I will agree that if a design can't properly handle 1W, how can one hope things get better beyond that?
Some older high power amps sounded ok at low volume but when you pushed them their midrange screamed at you. Back then I preferred hot low power class A amps.
TONE IT TO TASTE with an EQ *AFTER you get it Laboratory accurate* My fully Horn loaded, Digitally Active Crossed over Klispchorns run by 3 D series decades old Crowns , sound terrific, from the 0.001 Watt, The audiophile snobs prefer colored sound instead of Laboratory Accurate sound, which you can then tune to taste.
Having never been known as an audio snob, I'd say you wouldn't have a clue. Sugden's A21 amp was streets ahead of the Crown even though its specs said otherwise. It was chalk and cheese.
Interesting to note that legendary mastering engineer Bernie Grundman uses Crown DC-300s in his mastering chain to make critical sound quality decisions.
I have a Crown DC-300A II that is use part of the time. Personally, I don't hear anything bad at all, and this is on Magnepans. (I always turn the input attenuators full clockwise). So, don't know what to tell these people, but it sounds fine to me.
Bagging a Crown DC300A? Just lost ALL your cred, Paul. All of it. Dissing LM301 opamps? Saying a 709 is great? You have utterly SHREDDED your rep. Shredded!
I thought the question was asking something like the performance of airplanes. Some high performance jets may stall at slower speeds as compared to other planes, and they aren't as efficient as they could be at non-stall minimum speeds. They fly better at cruising speed (beyond the first watt); this may not be an apt analogy though.
Depends. The Benchmark amp has similar distortion from half a watt all the way to the rated 100W. Many solid state amps do rise in distortion after around 70%. Sounding the best at 35% is rarely true. Look at the THD measurements Stereophile does for every power/integrated amp. Now, do take notice that anything below around 0.1% THD can be treated as inaudible.
@Dave Micolichek That is correct (and doesn’t contradict what I said). Take note that THD (as well as IMD, crosstalk, etc.) stacks across the components in your chain. So, while 1% THD at 8kHz may not be audible, that doesn’t mean you want a DAC that’s 1% THD at 8kHz. This is why I choose something like 0.1%.
Great video! Also, I was hoping, if anyone here in the comment section knows about professional audio gear, could you steer me in the right direction in terms of which power amplifiers (and also speakers) are musical in your opinion and which manufacturers tend to make such amplifiers. I do audio for a small church here in Indiana and we have a fairly simple audio setup, nothing fancy, but being an audiophile I’ve really wanted to see if I could put together a system that sounds musical. Hopefully, something somewhat affordable since we’re a small church and an expensive audio system is not exactly where you wanna put the community’s money towards lol. Any suggestions? And thank you in advance to anyone who can share some advice.
crown drivecore series many audiofiles use them. Cerwin-Vega CVi-152 with some subs Cerwin-Vega CVI118S . one extra tip double the amp power over the speakers rms rated power. this will give you clean sound no matter what volume.
Go with the Crown lxs 1002 about $290, or lxs 1502 driver core, class D, best to buy two or more they can be used as active crossovers built in DSP in all frequencies, and with subwoofer output can be bridged to mono as well. What speakers are you using...? Might want to look at tannoy 802 studio monitor speakers, cheap for what you get. Powerful with good base can be hung up on the wall or ceiling can buy them with stands for £319 at Gear4Music, I think that's each don't forget the prices per 1 speaker, they are active
Don't forget that human hearing, being fundamentally logarithmic in sensitivity, you might be right to be concerned about the first milliWatt. Check my math on this (I did some rounding -- forgive that). If a music crescendo requires 100 Watts to produce 100 dB at 3 feet, a reproduced sound ~70 dB below the 100 Watt level (a practical -70 dB noise floor) will be about ~0.0002 Watts. That is 0.2 milliWatts. Think that isn't important? Think of the triangle player in the back row with the percussion section. First Watt? I would say "first milliWatt." Engineers may be trained in a linear measurement world. Music lives in a logarithmic world. Thus, audio designers and builders find themselves much like the mythological Sisyphus.
@My Name I don't wish to niggle, but in the example I offered, I was referring to the triangle playing alone. Thus, the first milliWatts count very much. And it would be much better if you can hear it, and it sounds like a triangle, not a sleigh bell. 12 bars down the score, you'd still like to hear the tutti crescendo as it is, not like the truck that empties a dumpster. So bugabee?
Back in the "good old days" ; when I was working in Retail Audio, I was "shopped" by a new Sales Rep from Crown. When I said essentially your response to the 300A, He was so incensed; The SOB, tried to have me Fired ! Fortunately, my Boss stood by me. Needless to say; all that Factory Rep from Crown did, was create an Enemy. Because, He wanted to prevent Dealers and Salespeople from having an opinion, counter to his own. I'd say the Rep was short sighted, and just plain stupid !
Yep that doesn't sound like great business, he seems to have the same attitude as the upper management of a lot of these companies these days that pay for op-ed's blaming "millennials" for declining sales, they never seem to blame poor marketing, poor attitudes or that the product is shit or nobody wants to buy it anymore because the market has changed.
@@RoaroftheTiger Was I correct? I don't think Crown will go the way of these fast casual restaurants or canned tuna but it sounds like the same kind of attitude.
@@jim9930- Jim No problem. btw - If your referencing the Preamp " 150" ( I believe the 'IC-150'), I couldn't agree with You more, The Balance Control alone," was a trip". As It could also "reverse balance" and go to a Mono Mix as well. Meanwhile, All the Best. ;)
I’m surprised anyone would try to use a 308 or 741 op amp in an audio application. I’m familiar with them because in the 1980’s they were used extensively in analog industrial electronics. These were circuits amplifiying or filtering sensor signals for measuring flow, pressure, temperature, etc... they were rugged but low fidelity. They weren’t designed for audio.
No, but an opamp is an opamp... They are fine for audio, the 741 a bit noisy and slew limited if you want a few volts out of it at 20 kHz... Too many amatwurs talking shit. As usual...
If you have nothing else, and discrete transistors aren't cutting it, as regards performance vs board space vs power required, you go with what is available. Keep gain low enough to cover the audio bandwidth and take care with decoupling power supplies and stuff and even the 741 and 301 will put in an acceptable performance. I have a Quantum Electronics preamp with nice specs from the '70's which used 301's which sounds nice. It sounds slightly better with a modern opamp, although with the circuitry involved it required an common mode performance close to the rails hard to find (the original 301 didn't). The 301 also makes an appearance in the Quad 402. Again the specs were adequate to good.
If you use the last watts, you have a too weak amplifier. There should always be generous headroom left when you play or else you will get distortion. If you want to play loud, then get some very efficient speakers, then you are more safe. But your ears might not be equally safe 😊
It's not the neutrality that decides if you like the sound or not. Most solid state amplifiers are very neutral, but still they sound different. It's how the sound is presented in the speakers that is most important. And most pro amplifiers has noisy fans which is very audible in low volume situations.
@@Enemji They sound different, because only slightly different sound can be very audible. But also the speaker match is the biggest impact. Two amplifiers can almost sound like with one set of speakers, but very different with another. Being neutral is just one of many measurable traits of an amplifier. You should never just shop amplifier without thinking about what type of speakers you will be using, and how loud you will be playing.
Is that why my cheap Denon AVR has like no volume up until 40/100? My Yamaha RX500u (late 80's) is really loud with it's knob barely turned up. Why is this?
@@jim9930 0.01% thd is actually not low for an amp. This indicates that imd will be much higher than 0.01% I would call any amp over 0.003% at 10W hifi. And over 0.0001% 10W ideal.
@@jim9930 Room is different. Also, multitone is what matters. Plus room reflection can be interpreted by our brain. .01% thd is just no where near ideal.
@room-ten-oh-nine ! depends on the speakers, first at least. Actually, SPL measurements are done at 1W/1m (or better said, 2.83V / 8 Ohm / 1m) so speaker sensitivity does matter a lot. For every 3dB loss in sensitivity you pay with half the sound pressure level at the same 1W - and vice versa. Regarding perceived loudness we can say a 85dB speaker is 1/10 that 'intense' at 1W (or mostly at any levels) 😊 than a 95dB speaker (taking the same 1W from the amp). We can do smaller parties with flea watt apmlifiers too if the speaker drivers are sensitive enough (either by construction or because of room modes, horn boxes, etc). But if speaker sensitivity is medium or low, these amps will have a moderate loudness only. Music is just the second factor. 😊
I got turned onto Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers a couple years ago. Just started building his DIY designs he released to the general public to build for themselves. It’s been manna from heaven. Nelson has a cult like following in the audio community and for good reason. I’m hooked on that First Watt, especially if you have high efficiency speakers it’s addictive.
Shout out to Nelson Pass
What is a nelson pass?
I think it’s a very complicated filter of some kind. 😂
@@thegrimyeaper Eye'm not sure... Better ask Pierre-Charles-Jean-Baptiste-Silvestre de Villeneuve.
@Dave Micolichek 😂 Yeah, you’re right. It’s a Class A filter that puts out a good amount of heat too. As you said, it is a simple one, but it doesn’t really start to filter for at least a half hour. Lol
Build one of Nelsons low powered amps (amp camp kits) over at diy audio and you will find out quick how good low powered class a amps designed with minimum parts and a elegant design can sound😀
As a lover of flea watt single ended triode amplifiers, yes the first watt is important. So is the other watt.
@33Ddg209Ret7 I wasn't familiar with the AER speaker so I went to their website and saw the coolest looking single driver, open baffle, clear acrylic speakers! If they sound half as good as they look (I realize this cabinet is not what you have) you've really got something there. My system is also DIY, 4'x8' sheets of subfloor material, standing on end and open in the back. They are not in my living room. A 15" Altec 515b does the bass, an Altec 203b 2 cell compression driven horn is my current midrange with a RAAL dipole ribbon tweeter for the top end. The Altecs are both vintage, circa 1960. I have three non-commercial 45 tube, 2 watt directly heated single ended triode amps, one of which I built myself, but currently I have a Nelson Pass designed Amp Camp Amp (that's it's name), built from a kit, 6 watts single ended transistor, driving the tweeter, with two of the SETs powering the Altecs. The crossover is active. These will do quiet and delicate, but they also get loud and deep without any harshness. The tweeter is 93db efficient, with the bass and horns 102db and 114db respectively. If I could hear no other speaker for the rest of my life, that would be just fine, I like this system that much.
@John LeBeau 😂🤣 Perfect! Not sure your “other watt” joke landed. I personally thought it was very funny and clever!
If you have to explain it.... I'm glad someone got it. Thanks.
@33Ddg209Ret7 I have never seen them, much less heard them. They were designed by Lukasz Fikus, The Polish engineer who started Lampizator. I used to follow his blog before he started his company, his advice helped my enjoyment of digital music greatly. I have owned two of his DACs, and although I have not heard very many top level modern DACs, the sound from his is superb. He posted the instructions for making that speaker in his blog over 10 years ago. lampizator.eu/SPEAKERS/PROJECTS/P17/Endorphine%20from%20Kingston%20Kitchen.html
Many audiophiles use Crown, QSC, and other Class D Amps in active crossover (DSP) systems for the bass drivers with excellent results.
Yes!
the can deliver some power for sure
First Watt Amplifiers are some of the best in the world. Nelson Pass. Passlabs.
One can build some of them first watt amps over at diy audio. Where else can you build a amp designed by Nelson and get questions and feedback on the amp your building😀
Brandon Burr I built mine
@@coldfinger459sub0 Built mine too, a F5. Absolutely awesome!. Thanks, Nelson Pass!!!
I have a Crown XLi2500, a "lower end" AB amp, a lot of power. It does a nice job especially with rock, electronic, blues. Not trying to say it is HiFi or anything, but definitely good quality, good power, neutral sound. Great for it's purpose.
The original DC300 was fully discrete. The DC300A used a ua 739 in the front end. Both measured flawlessly for their day, but sounded terrible. Many accused them of having very poor TIM performance. I'm not sure if that's true or not. The frequency response dropped like a rock just above 20kHz, and it used massive amounts of negative feedback.
The 300a used an LM301 for the input amp. Used to drive CUTTER HEAD on recording lathes...
And you want to diss this beast?
Don't make me laugh!
No one can hear anything above 20KHz anyway. Maybe, a baby can.
Remember a friend (who is now running his music gear store he started in 1985) playing a turntable through a Phase Linear power amp and big Community Light and Sound horn loaded PA speakers. Sounded great at the time (~1976) or at least LOUD and fairly clean. It was five years later when I began gravitating toward "high end" with a Harmon Kardon PM660 amp and Infinity RSb speakers. PS Audio's Infinity affiliation is definitively affinitive relatively infinitely for me.
Here's the thing. Unless you are sitting a LONG distance away from very inefficient speakers, at normal listening volumes you are probably never going to use more than a few watts and 90% of the music you listen to will be in the 0.1 to 1 watt range. The first watt is the most important.
WORD!
Bruno Rivademar Very true, I thought I was listening to my music at a loud volume and figured I'd check with my multimeter.
It was about 3V peaks on my 85db sensitivity Chane A1.4s... About 6-7 feet away from them too.
To anyone wondering what 3v means, that's under 1 watt on my 8ohm Chanes.
Yeah thats true. I listen in near Field. My amplifier Has vu meters and while i listen vu meters shows 0.5 W to about 1.5 W max.
I love how this guy acts like he has all the answers...
That Crown DC300 could start a car. But they also did exceedingly well with difficult and challenging speaker loads. The stability was stunning. Also, since guys were trying to have rock concerts in their homes back in the day, nobody came close to the power and fidelity that the Crown could deliver. The specs were about as good as anything before or at the time and in many ways, the DC300 did very well in critical listening reviews. Stereophile gave it about as glowing a review as the voice-coils were getting on JBL drivers all over the kingdom. Anyhow, I've had some pro audio amps in and out of my systems, always willing to give one a try. But they never satisfy with all of the nuance and sonic realism that hi-fi companies strive to create. But damn, the Crown DriveCore class D amps offer insanely great value and performance with many liking their hi-fi sound.
Very good overview of this subject
I wonder if PS Audio ever thought of building a PA power amp.Used to own a Chameleon Audio 1 unit high amp(Not class D) sounded very nice whatever volume
Thank you for the explanation as usual, Paul. No mention of Nelson Pass and his company, First Watt?
I think Nelson AND Paul McGowan are both living legends of audio!
Big fan of Nelsons here and all his contributions to the diy audio community. Where else can you build some the best low powered class A first watt amps...and get help from nelson himself and from Wayne (his wizards assistant at pass labs) and other very smart builders? One listen to Nelsons amp camp kits and you will be hooked! Be assembling mine soon!
Yes! Absolutely! It’s so funny you bring the diy thing up. I’m building an F5 Turbo V2 right now! I managed to track down a new set of genuine Toshiba LSK170’s & LSJ74’s too! Just gotta buy the Dissipante chassis, and I’m in business. Can’t wait!
@Brandon Burr Which amp are you building? I got so excited talking about my build, I forgot to ask you about yours. How rude!
@@NickP333 it's ok😀 I'm starting out building a pair of amp cam 1.6 monos. It's funny you mention the f5 turbo. That is literally the next build I have been studying. Nice to hear you got your genuine Toshiba. The diy store seems to be out of stock on them alot. Where did you get them? You building yours with 2 power transformers? What brand, VA rating and voltage transformers? Been doing lots of studying and reading on that amp (and the aleph j amp). This would be a huge step for me to take building this. May have to get help along the way but I think it will be rewarding😀
@Brandon Burr That’s awesome that you’re doing a pair of AC 1.6 monoblocks.
So, you’re on diyaudio too, huh? What’s your handle? Mine is: hiwattnick.
I’ll add you as a friend.
I bought the Toshibas from: www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-2SJ74-2SK170-LAB-MATCHED-QUAD-to-0-03mA-AND-4mV-7-8ma-range-/253603371917
Nelson, himself said they’re the real deal. The dude has tons of em. Lucky SOB!
A little pricey, but when it comes to my HiFi components, I try and buy the best parts. It’s well worth it in the end.
As far a transformers, I’m using Antek, cuz I also built an EAR 845p phono preamp clone using Antek, and it sounds amazing!
Yes, I’m going with 2 of em in the F5T. Firstly, a true dual mono seems like a cleaner overall build. As I said, I don’t skimp when it comes to my HiFi stuff. Do it right once, and you’re set for life. I also bought 2 in case I ever wanna make a pair of monoblocks.
They’re 24V AC on the secondaries.
The diy audio forum is so amazing. As you mentioned, look at who you’ve got to ask about basically building a First Watt amp, Nelson and Wayne. That’s insanely awesome to me!
Building your own equipment makes much more sense to me than buying it in certain cases. My phono pre is built WAY better than the original. Much better components, and you get to dial that shit in yourself so it sounds like you like it! 😃
High power PA sound is quite often running at 5-10 % thd... big amps are designed for power and stability only ...
High end audio amps should behave the same at 1watt or at its max rms rating ... what makes an audio amp musical and really inviting is it's ability to be transparent with zero phase shifts across the frequency spectrum... and above all to handle many many different waveforms with no intermodulation whatsoever.
Then the Crown DC300A should have been great, it had very little phase shift, down to 0 at the bass end. the IM and TIM were as low as anything from that era. By your same criteria tube amps are terrible. Many people would argue those points.
Dave Micolichek ,~ yeah no doubt there are .... but who cares about distortion when the SPL is running at 115-120 dB !!
My Name ~in PA application they're not "tweeters" they are HF compression horns and most have either a seperate amp to drive them or they'll have very steep roll off filters and thermistor limiters
Wonder what Paul thinks about Parasound?
I am a fan of John Curl's work and he mostly designs Parasound's products. They are beautifully built (in Taiwan) and are excellent value for the money.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Thanks Paul for answering! That is what I currently own, the Halo a31, which is powering my front 3 channels. I agree that they are great high value products. I do have a PS Audio power cable coming out of it ;). And it damn sure makes a difference in sound quality! Thanks again Paul for making great videos!!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio Lucasfilm Sound-designer Ben Burtt used Parasound amps in his personal editing suite.
@@X2FileWrightonite Parasound along with its designer John Curl make great products.
Some audiophiles are using the new crown amps with good results
@My Name If I were going to use a Crown for anything fidelic it would have to be a class I like the Itech or DCI. I think the old DC300 was class H maybe? Crown used to offer a Reference series which I am told was pretty good.
The DC300 and A were class AB + B. They would run the drivers at class AB and they would run the speaker line up to a few milliwatts then the outputs would take over. The Reference series used the same scheme except they were bridged amps.
Meh
@@johnhodgson5313 Wow. I guess Class AB had it's growth phase too. I always thought they were Class H because they really were not that impressive. What was your take on the Reference? I never heard them. I took a Crown (Macrotech 600 I think) from the live side and brought it into the studio one day just to hear it against our Haflers and Yamaha. We just used the Yami to drive headphones but as it turned out it was a pretty reasonable amp as well. The Crown was fairly smooth and of course had power for days but not very good detail. The Crown Reference was pretty expensive compared to the Haflers and they were pretty much the hot ticket in studio amps at the time. Late 90's btw. I had always meant to ask the rep to send over one to see but I was always too busy when she was around.
If the amp had been class H they could have made it smaller, the heatsink wouldn't have been so big and the transformer could have been smaller. I find it interesting to note that the 300 and 300A used a 1.2kw transformer and rated the amp just overt 500 watts total output. I am looking at a CE1000 and the transformer is MUCH smaller. I would give almost anything to have a day or 2 with a Reference. I talked with Clay Barclay who had a lot to do with the Reference and he said get either 2 Power Line 4 or PS400 and run them both bridged. It won't be a Reference but it will be good. I haven't done that yet.
The Crown IC 300 had a sound like a strongman lifting heavy weights. Powerful. Yet, also straining.
Live music is evolving sir, theres definitely alot more hifi in live shows now than ever before with certain shows- example- alt j
hi ,i want
to make this nelson pass f6 amp and i got toroidal transformer at home but its not 18
volt secondary but 24 volts so i got 6 volts excess. my question is.
can i use this transformer! is this a good solution to put resistors
between capacitors to reduce voltage supply! and what resistor value
will be correct and watt of the resistor so this amp works with 2 amperes
about.thanks for your help you can see the shematic at diyaudio
Best video yet and Paul Nailed it !!! One and done . If you can't get the first watt right all the rest will follow . I'll name one amp that has been ignored for years McIntosh MA6100 . Not the greatest specs or the greatest power but one of the juiciest amps ever made . This amp wasn't made for specs, it was made for music love making .
Best example in getting the first watt right is speakers with 106 db 1 watt 1 meter efficiency.
Okay I have made the argument that efficiency is not done across a full 20 Hz to 20 kHz width but at 1K but still that one watt is going to make some noise . I guess if your speakers are 80 db 1 watt 1 meter I wouldn't worry about those first 15 watts (this video is not for you). Sad emoji for you and ha ha emoji for me .
your talking about nelson pass firstwatt
Who else was waiting for Paul to say the wrong thing and trigger all the Nelson Pass fans? :)
joshua43214 ~ and Nelson himself !!
I second that. I was waiting as well. Pass labs amps are some of the best sounding. Definately has made some classics that have stood the test of time!
@joshua43214 😂 LOL! I certainly was, but it appears he didn’t have to, cuz all the Pass fans are going crazy!
Nelson Pass himself is the one who originally said, “the first watt is the most important watt”, hence, First Watt amplifiers, of course. 🙂
Nick Pantazi ..... somewhat like the first love 💖
@Janina Palmer ~ Perfect! So true too. You never do forget your first love. That’s why there’s so many songs about it. 🎼🥰
A lot of Home Theater enthusiasts use Crown and Behringer amps for LARGE (15" +) subwoofers because of the wattage they put out. Not so much for the mains but definitely for sub, say 120Hz, stuff.
@@jim9930 I'd be super interested in seeing that.
Watt degree do you have to do to get into audio and stuff like that?
electronic/audio engineering
When transistor amps first came to market they exhibited specs 'better' than valve amps. Unfortunately these specs were at full power. At low volumes, as no account had been taken of the cross over region of class 'B' amps, the distortion was horrendous. Only the 'tips' of the signal reached the speaker at low volume. The rest got lost. There is also the presence of background circuit noise that intrudes at low volume. A mains hum which annoys at setting one, may be inaudible at setting 11. It is possible to design 'full range' preamps with 'slow' ic's such as the 741. A lot of mixer desks apparently had them before the likes of the 5534 came along with a nice wide bandwidth and low noise. You just have to take account of the slew rate limitations of the beast, limiting the gain accordingly. Modern power amps are much better behaved in the cross-over region (using class AB), or avoid it altogether by using class 'A'. How successful they are at driving speakers at low volume is another question. This was one of the driving forces for single driver speakers without crossovers to muddy the sound.
I remember the Crown DC300 amps and one of their advertising claims was that it could drive a 70.7 distribution line directly from its 8 ohm output. I am sure it could, but I would think it would still suffer huge losses in the lines to the speakers and coverage would be weak ant the end of the lines.
It did produce 70 volts at the speaker terminals bridged as does any 600 watt at 8 ohm amp. As for losses, a 70 volt line doesn't care how it gets the 70 volts, once it leaves the amp the line losses will be the same. A funny thing happened the first time I did this. We used old Bogens and TOA to drive temporary installs and people would hook up little 8 ohm speakers in odd areas despite being warned not to. This would bring the amp driving that line to its knees. We switched to a bridged Crown and someone hooked up their little speaker. We heard a very loud sound from some distant corner and then it stopped abruptly. I would have loved to see the smoke show.
I used to service commercial sound systems that operated on a 70.7 volt line. When an 8 ohm speaker without a line transformer is added, it appears as a "short" on the system. It will play very loud and shut off all the other speakers in the system. They rarely burned up though. This was rather common because people that did not know better would sometimes add a speaker and not even realize that they caused the system to fail. I can see why it burned up with the crown amp though.
I think you are right about the Crown amp's ability to run the system though.
Well Paul how come may of the top recoding studios use Crown PSA and SA2s ?
why dont you explain the importance of amp type design A/Ab ,D etc. since the effect of crossover and bias distortion at milliwatts is the key to sounding true at low watts.
and dont forget the slew rate which is a time domain effect on the sound. yes it takes longer to reproduce a larger signal (uv/sec). limited by the amps active elements(tubes or semi)
so its relitivley easy to design a 1 watt amp. with faithful reproduction pass thru.
you worry about dithering with DAC dont you??
Equipment for the masses is built to a price point. Price no object at the other end. Any middle ground?
Paul, when you say the first watt is class -A and then goes to class D etc etc etc... does it mean that if i listen at 2 watts the first one will still be provided by the class A section?
Yes, but let's not think of this as separate things. It's the same amplifier in the first watt or the last watt. If you only listen to 2 watts and the first watt is biased to be class A then yes, you're listening to music in class A. The point is that once you get past a certain point in loudness the biasing of the amplifier isn't as important as the first bit because low level detail is what's majorly affected.
I think you mean class B not D. D is another bag of worms entirely. What you are essentially listening to is two separate amplifiers amplifying the positive and negative parts of the signal separately. In class B (actually AB) each amplifier is biased to stray a little over the zero volt boundary, so around the zero volt point both amplifiers are amplifying the signal and driving the speaker. If the amplifiers did not have a bias to have this shared region (pure class B), there would be a gap where no signal was being amplified, even though there was a a low level input. This mangles the signal, particularly at low levels. This shared region can be made very wide, giving what is described as 'push-pull class A', which may on signal peaks lead to just one output device conducting, not both, so it becomes class B for that peak.
Right, i feel Paul missed the answer on this one. The whole first watt issue came about because solid state has a basic property of improving sound quality as you turn it up. Pretty much all solid state amps sound best close to their limit. But most people do not listen at those volumes, and some amps sound really bad really low. I personally do most of my listening between 0.01 and 0.1 W and yes 0.1W is pretty loud on 91dB efficient speakers. So getting the first watt right is paramount because that's where the amp will spend most of its lifetime. And it is also the most difficult watt to get right.
Sorin G I custom built my DIY 98 efficiency speakers. Not possible for me to listen to 1 W of power will damage my hearing and disturb my neighbors.
Information, spot on. Just don't report the end of the world. It'll be over before the report.
My PRX535s with Crown amps sound average at low levels, but sound pretty decent for PA speakers at higher volumes.
Watt? I had a Harmon Kardon 30watt reciever. I always wondered how much power it was putting out so I bought a wattmeter from RadioShack and found that at a pretty loud at only 2 Watts. Sure it would put our more under peak loads, but it still wasn't that much. A while later my buddy invited his friends and we had a party. One of the guys wanted to hear what my stereo sounded like so I fired it up. It was about mid May at the time and when I put on Pink Floyd's we don't need no education with the door and windows open and cranked it loud enough to enjoy, we heard cheering. I stuck my head out the door and looked at the High School Football field next door. We discussed what might be going on because it was long long passed Football season, so one the the guys ran over to take a loot. He peeked through the vines that were growing out the fence, and he came running back, beer in had yelling turn it off. When he got the the apartment I asked what was going on, and the school was holding its graduation. So we shut ever thing off closed up and turn out the lights. Sure enough no sooner than we went silent the police showed up shining their light through our window. After a few minutes the left. But it didn't take much more than maybe 5 or 10 Watts to get arrested! Luckily they didn't knock on our door. There wasn't much room in the apartment for fifteen guys!
Hey Paul, I love your vids.. what happened to Nipper ? :)
@ Szilard Matral I was wondering the same thing! I didn’t wanna bring it up in case Nipper got hit by a car or something. 😂
@@NickP333 lol 🤣 Well, I was just watching some older videos of Paul again and recognized: Nipper is missing. But I follow his vlog since those Nipper-times and can't remember the episode it was gone. 🤔😀
@Szilard Matral Maybe we need to do a bit of sleuthing, as I’ve also been following his vlog for years at this point. First one to figure it out gets a free BHK 250! 🤣😂
I wonder if it was after the move of PS Audio across the street. Hmm....
@@NickP333 no. Before somewhere... Before the movement and before the new music room.
Interesting video, thanks Paul.
Paul,
I keep hearing the term (low level detail).
I understand it's meaning in business management but not in audio , can someone define this for me?
Low level details is the sounds in the music that is way softer than the rms level. If you have heard a very good resolving system, you will know what I'm talking about. Most people have not heard it in their lifetime.... unfortunately.
@@oysteinsoreide4323
Thank you, I did not want to assume what it meant, I also thought it might be resolution 70 hz. and below , example when a cello, electric bass and organ are all doing low notes being able to separate instruments in to layers.
Some pipe organs used in churches can really become complicated buy them selves .
@@oysteinsoreide4323 example ,
E. POWER Biggs Toccata and Fugue
Played from RTR , will test any subwoofer or large floorstaders that go low.
sad how few subs can do this recording when he starts working the foot pedals.
And everything goes really low, nothing under a 10 inch driver can make any sense of this recording at lower frequencies.
when you hear their whiskers brush on the microphone
Lord this guy needs to go read some spec sheets and do some real world comparisons because he clearly hasn’t. The crown DC300 was built back when crown wasn’t exclusively pro audio and was a remarkable highly resolving amplifier that was actually used almost exclusively in home audio applications and is to this day one of the best sounding amplifiers I’ve ever heard at any price. Remarkable sound stage can be achieved from that amplifier. My pops still happens to own one and still uses it to this day. I have the little brother which was the DC150 and it to is an incredible amp. Almost identical specs but half the power. I don’t currently use it because my JBL 6290’s sound slightly better and have way more headroom but that doesn’t change the fact that Paul is constantly talking out his ass on some of these topics. I know because I have vast hands on experience with these very amplifies and am pretty well versed in crowns product history. These days I wouldn’t be caught dead using a crown amp in a resolving system but back in the day they made incredibly good amps for both pro and home applications. Regarding the first watt issue, as the greatest amplifier designer who’s ever lived Mr. Nelson Pass would say if the first watt doesn’t sound good who cares what the rest of them sound like after that. And yes I have experience with Pass amplifiers. Yet another reason why I’m comfortable saying Paul is full of crap regarding the regarding the crown DC300. As Paul would say end of rant. I didn’t mean to go on a tangent but lord sometimes he just says some off the wall stuff that has no basis in actual reality
There are so many things that can go wrong from 1W up to (say) 100W as the current draw increases, heat spreads and various sections of the circuit could be drawn out of linearity - among other things. But I will agree that if a design can't properly handle 1W, how can one hope things get better beyond that?
Some older high power amps sounded ok at low volume but when you pushed them their midrange screamed at you. Back then I preferred hot low power class A amps.
I"m still not sure class A amps (or at least class A for lower watts range) aren't the best way to go. What do you prefer now?
TONE IT TO TASTE with an EQ *AFTER you get it Laboratory accurate*
My fully Horn loaded, Digitally Active Crossed over Klispchorns run by 3 D series decades old Crowns , sound terrific, from the 0.001 Watt,
The audiophile snobs prefer colored sound instead of Laboratory Accurate sound, which you can then tune to taste.
Having never been known as an audio snob, I'd say you wouldn't have a clue. Sugden's A21 amp was streets ahead of the Crown even though its specs said otherwise. It was chalk and cheese.
Interesting to note that legendary mastering engineer Bernie Grundman uses Crown DC-300s in his mastering chain to make critical sound quality decisions.
Oh dear....
I have a Crown DC-300A II that is use part of the time. Personally, I don't hear anything bad at all, and this is on Magnepans. (I always turn the input attenuators full clockwise). So, don't know what to tell these people, but it sounds fine to me.
Bagging a Crown DC300A?
Just lost ALL your cred, Paul.
All of it.
Dissing LM301 opamps?
Saying a 709 is great?
You have utterly SHREDDED your rep.
Shredded!
I heard an amplifiers sweetspot for sound is at 35% volume
I thought the question was asking something like the performance of airplanes. Some high performance jets may stall at slower speeds as compared to other planes, and they aren't as efficient as they could be at non-stall minimum speeds. They fly better at cruising speed (beyond the first watt); this may not be an apt analogy though.
Depends.
The Benchmark amp has similar distortion from half a watt all the way to the rated 100W.
Many solid state amps do rise in distortion after around 70%.
Sounding the best at 35% is rarely true.
Look at the THD measurements Stereophile does for every power/integrated amp.
Now, do take notice that anything below around 0.1% THD can be treated as inaudible.
@Dave Micolichek
That is correct (and doesn’t contradict what I said).
Take note that THD (as well as IMD, crosstalk, etc.) stacks across the components in your chain. So, while 1% THD at 8kHz may not be audible, that doesn’t mean you want a DAC that’s 1% THD at 8kHz.
This is why I choose something like 0.1%.
i would say that depends on the amplifier
Great video! Also, I was hoping, if anyone here in the comment section knows about professional audio gear, could you steer me in the right direction in terms of which power amplifiers (and also speakers) are musical in your opinion and which manufacturers tend to make such amplifiers. I do audio for a small church here in Indiana and we have a fairly simple audio setup, nothing fancy, but being an audiophile I’ve really wanted to see if I could put together a system that sounds musical. Hopefully, something somewhat affordable since we’re a small church and an expensive audio system is not exactly where you wanna put the community’s money towards lol. Any suggestions? And thank you in advance to anyone who can share some advice.
crown drivecore series many audiofiles use them. Cerwin-Vega CVi-152 with some subs Cerwin-Vega CVI118S . one extra tip double the amp power over the speakers rms rated power. this will give you clean sound no matter what volume.
I would think something with a horn, perhaps some jbl or reconditioned Altec like Voice of the Theater?
Go with the Crown lxs 1002 about $290, or lxs 1502 driver core, class D, best to buy two or more they can be used as active crossovers built in DSP in all frequencies, and with subwoofer output can be bridged to mono as well. What speakers are you using...? Might want to look at tannoy 802 studio monitor speakers, cheap for what you get. Powerful with good base can be hung up on the wall or ceiling can buy them with stands for £319 at Gear4Music, I think that's each don't forget the prices per 1 speaker, they are active
Great question!!! And answer 😀
The other aspect of the question is that most of our listening is done using less than one watt of power.
Don't forget that human hearing, being fundamentally logarithmic in sensitivity, you might be right to be concerned about the first milliWatt.
Check my math on this (I did some rounding -- forgive that).
If a music crescendo requires 100 Watts to produce 100 dB at 3 feet,
a reproduced sound ~70 dB below the 100 Watt level (a practical -70 dB noise floor) will be about ~0.0002 Watts.
That is 0.2 milliWatts.
Think that isn't important? Think of the triangle player in the back row with the percussion section.
First Watt? I would say "first milliWatt."
Engineers may be trained in a linear measurement world. Music lives in a logarithmic world.
Thus, audio designers and builders find themselves much like the mythological Sisyphus.
@Jim Shaw That’s an interesting point. Now you’ve got me thinking about stuff too much, and I just wanna go to sleep! lol 😴😂
@My Name I don't wish to niggle, but in the example I offered, I was referring to the triangle playing alone. Thus, the first milliWatts count very much. And it would be much better if you can hear it, and it sounds like a triangle, not a sleigh bell. 12 bars down the score, you'd still like to hear the tutti crescendo as it is, not like the truck that empties a dumpster. So bugabee?
@My Name No, I don't have to realize that, because it is fallacy.
Back in the "good old days" ; when I was working in Retail Audio, I was "shopped" by a new Sales Rep from Crown. When I said essentially your response to the 300A, He was so incensed; The SOB, tried to have me Fired ! Fortunately, my Boss stood by me. Needless to say; all that Factory Rep from Crown did, was create an Enemy. Because, He wanted to prevent Dealers and Salespeople from having an opinion, counter to his own. I'd say the Rep was short sighted, and just plain stupid !
Yep that doesn't sound like great business, he seems to have the same attitude as the upper management of a lot of these companies these days that pay for op-ed's blaming "millennials" for declining sales, they never seem to blame poor marketing, poor attitudes or that the product is shit or nobody wants to buy it anymore because the market has changed.
@@ryacus Thanks for your understanding.
@@RoaroftheTiger Was I correct? I don't think Crown will go the way of these fast casual restaurants or canned tuna but it sounds like the same kind of attitude.
@@ryacus That "shoppers incident", happened a Long time ago. I trust Crown has learned It's lession ... least, I hope so. ; )
@@jim9930- Jim No problem. btw - If your referencing the Preamp " 150" ( I believe the 'IC-150'), I couldn't agree with You more, The Balance Control alone," was a trip". As It could also "reverse balance" and go to a Mono Mix as well. Meanwhile, All the Best. ;)
I’m surprised anyone would try to use a 308 or 741 op amp in an audio application. I’m familiar with them because in the 1980’s they were used extensively in analog industrial electronics. These were circuits amplifiying or filtering sensor signals for measuring flow, pressure, temperature, etc... they were rugged but low fidelity. They weren’t designed for audio.
No, but an opamp is an opamp...
They are fine for audio, the 741 a bit noisy and slew limited if you want a few volts out of it at 20 kHz...
Too many amatwurs talking shit.
As usual...
If you have nothing else, and discrete transistors aren't cutting it, as regards performance vs board space vs power required, you go with what is available. Keep gain low enough to cover the audio bandwidth and take care with decoupling power supplies and stuff and even the 741 and 301 will put in an acceptable performance. I have a Quantum Electronics preamp with nice specs from the '70's which used 301's which sounds nice. It sounds slightly better with a modern opamp, although with the circuitry involved it required an common mode performance close to the rails hard to find (the original 301 didn't). The 301 also makes an appearance in the Quad 402. Again the specs were adequate to good.
I'm generally more worried about the last watts 😅
If you use the last watts, you have a too weak amplifier. There should always be generous headroom left when you play or else you will get distortion. If you want to play loud, then get some very efficient speakers, then you are more safe. But your ears might not be equally safe 😊
@@oysteinsoreide4323 The problem is that i like vintage amps and most of them ain't that powerful so yeah, I worry about those last few watts 😅
@@FullFledged2010 Then it's critical to find the right amplifier and speaker combo.
to misquote cat stevens, 'the first watt is the deepest'.
Good one, but i think that was Rod Stewart. ;)
The modern crown amplifiers are very good there designed to be flat with no colouration
Correct, flatter the better
a flat amp + flat speakers needs a flat listening room. Even then, you may not enjoy the music.
It's not the neutrality that decides if you like the sound or not. Most solid state amplifiers are very neutral, but still they sound different. It's how the sound is presented in the speakers that is most important. And most pro amplifiers has noisy fans which is very audible in low volume situations.
Oystein Soreide - huh?
@@Enemji They sound different, because only slightly different sound can be very audible. But also the speaker match is the biggest impact. Two amplifiers can almost sound like with one set of speakers, but very different with another. Being neutral is just one of many measurable traits of an amplifier. You should never just shop amplifier without thinking about what type of speakers you will be using, and how loud you will be playing.
I was hopeing he'd mention Class D amps as well, many sound TERRIBLE at low levels.
Is that why my cheap Denon AVR has like no volume up until 40/100? My Yamaha RX500u (late 80's) is really loud with it's knob barely turned up. Why is this?
So watt ???
So fckin watt??
Kurt Cobain used a Crown as his guitar amp :P
And then shot himself in the head...
There must be measurements wrong with the crown.
@@jim9930 0.01% thd is actually not low for an amp. This indicates that imd will be much higher than 0.01%
I would call any amp over 0.003% at 10W hifi. And over 0.0001% 10W ideal.
@@jim9930 Room is different. Also, multitone is what matters. Plus room reflection can be interpreted by our brain. .01% thd is just no where near ideal.
What about carver amps?
Made no sense to me but who am I to judge.
my first dislike to Paul. i didnt get any understanding of the problem
The majority of people do not even use more then one watt of aplifier power.
Yeah 'cause they use mobile phones and headphones.. 🤣
Depends on the speakers...
Poor people. I use anywhere from a few dozen to 3000 watts. Gotta feel the music!!
@room-ten-oh-nine ! depends on the speakers, first at least. Actually, SPL measurements are done at 1W/1m (or better said, 2.83V / 8 Ohm / 1m) so speaker sensitivity does matter a lot. For every 3dB loss in sensitivity you pay with half the sound pressure level at the same 1W - and vice versa. Regarding perceived loudness we can say a 85dB speaker is 1/10 that 'intense' at 1W (or mostly at any levels) 😊 than a 95dB speaker (taking the same 1W from the amp). We can do smaller parties with flea watt apmlifiers too if the speaker drivers are sensitive enough (either by construction or because of room modes, horn boxes, etc). But if speaker sensitivity is medium or low, these amps will have a moderate loudness only. Music is just the second factor. 😊
@room-ten-oh-nine ! Nobody seems to be taking music into account for some reason why is that?
I got turned onto Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers a couple years ago. Just started building his DIY designs he released to the general public to build for themselves. It’s been manna from heaven. Nelson has a cult like following in the audio community and for good reason. I’m hooked on that First Watt, especially if you have high efficiency speakers it’s addictive.