6/10 for me. We not been good enough but still feel enough optimism due to this young but very talented team. Not having it Borthwick is inexperienced or not good enough. I’ve seen some good performances against a fixture list this year that has been extreme for a new team. 🏴
Well balanced review Tim. England’s youth is a huge advantage if the positive trends in the areas that improved this year continue. Agree that the RFU needs to re-think their policy re players outside the Prem.
As a French fan, I find the England team a bit like the French team before Fabien Galthié, with a lot of ‘encouraging defeats’ as the French press used to say. It was very frustrating for the young fan that I was and I'm really enjoying my team's current form. I totally agree that Jack Willis is one of the best in his position in the world. For me it's a 5/10 with a special mention for Cunningham-South who I've really discovered this year and who has impressed me every time I've seen him play.
My thoughts as a neutral: - England have shown a lot of promise, put in good performances with some unlucky results - They have a young squad with exciting talent - but things will never change so long as Bill Sweeney is in charge
@@subbie5498 You would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't think Du Pont isn't at least in the conversation for best player in the world. He could walk into literally any national team.
It’s a 4 from me. I find it hard to fathom how a team with this level of resource can be so low in the world ranking. An elite team requires an elite coaching set up. This doesn’t seem to be the case. This has to be based on results and they haven’t been good enough.
I agree so much about the press and reactionary fans. I remember when Eddie Jones picked robshaw and haskell for his first game and the fans were disgusted. He hadnt even coached one game!!!!! That was the start of his record run 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The thing that really gets me about not being able to select players playing abroad is that it should be a World Rugby rule, not up to individual countries. Of course it should be allowed. It only serves to improve the game as a whole in giving the players extra high level experience and making them better individually. I reckon it's part of the reason SA are so good at the moment.
@@joedennehy386 No, I wouldn't. I still think players should be able to play abroad and still be selected for their country. If a nation's coach doesn't feel the need to select such players, fair enough, but they should be eligible. Either that or no country can be allowed to do it. But that would be very hard on smaller rugby nations, like the south sea islanders.
I get your point, but imagine all the best players in your home club go play abroad in France or Japan etc. Club rugby would become even worse than it already has become.
@@darraghgeaney1602 I agree, that's a tricky one, and is the reason the RFU gives, I believe. I don't know how true it is, but top players going abroad leaves room for younger guns to get into the first team. Maybe that promotes a better through-put of talent. At the moment we lose the top guys, but a change of the rule would still allow them to be picked for the country. No clear cut answer really.
Unless the RFU resign English rugby is on a down ward same team no new face's tickets are expensive I've been going to Twickenham for 40 years but feel it has lost its soul
I wouldn’t even mind all that if the RFU was doing well in other areas but there is literally no metric by which they have improved the game since Bill Sweeney took charge in 2019 - commercial, participation, tradition, investment have all gone down The only thing that’s gone up has been the bonuses
How dare they drop the iconic name Twickenham. Who do you think you are Bill Sweeney.Went for a song at £200million, to a company like Allianze that's change down the back of the sofa 😢😢
Its great to be a fan, and there are a lot of good things to look forward to, but based on 2024, only one significant win is not good. without looking forward, its a 4 for me
After 10 seconds that was my assessment. 4/10 or a D. The pragmatism of the World Cup was fine but we needed more than that this year. Borthwick seems to be drifting towards playing favourites and I don’t like it.
3/10 sorry, no faith in Borthwick & his staff. I'm not an Exeter fan, but for me Rob Baxter is an exceptional talent, & someone I think the vast majority could respect & work with. (Not sure he'd accept though.)
Ship has sailed on Baxter and the last four? seasons have increasingly shown him as a busted flush wedded to one way of playing and with an inability to adapt to the game changing. He's tried to buy in the best and brightest from other clubs Academies and Wales and failed in most cases to develop them. IFW was always going to come good but him aside most of those bought in have plateaued or declined.
I know that what I am going to say might ruffle some feathers but I honestly think the problem lies with a sense of exceptionalism amongst England’s fans and media. Inherently there is an expectation that they should be wiping the floor with everyone. When that doesn’t happen, everything about the team is immediately crap and then everyone piles on the team and coaches. It’s a strange bit of national psychology the tears itself up from the inside. A lack of patience and a tendency towards binary extremes(great/crap) doesn’t help. The England team looks dangerous. They need time.
I've talked about this myself. The Premiership isn't nearly as good as it was in terms of nurturing international level players. The players often not nearly as good as many think (which relates back to the Premiership). Still, have a enough to be very competitive.
5/10 (not England fan). England are (slowly) building. People who think they are going backwards are the same people who got carried away by a world cup in which the only tier 1 team they beat was Argentina. The 6N will show if there has been any real improvement.
very equitable review. future looks bright player wise. I believe Farrell senior would win the 6N with those players. I'll refrain from any other comments on coaching.
before I saw your score and analysis sir I thought 5 or 6 - Im with you, the whole doom n gloom is dramatic - a couple of things going the other way and we'd have some good wins under the belt. The dissapointments for me were the Scotland game in the 6N and the Australia game in the Autumn series - however we were the only side to beat Ireland in the 6N and came very close in the autumn series and tour games - some of the defence errors were alarming - so perhaps thats what is getting the pearl clutching - but seems like the sudden departure of the defence coach would explain that
England this year have been a solid team surrounded by negative press and publicity. They had a good book of moves, which allbeit was quite conservative, worked in the world cup. With all the scores there its clear the team had 95% of their game put together. That 5% could be down to mentality of the players where week in week out theyre hearing reports and articles where there is nothing positive said about what is realistically not as bad as people say. Only thing I would change about england is bill 'swindler' sweenys salary/bonus (or just get rid of him and appoint someone who cares about the development of England).
The Ireland win is indeed doing a lot of heavy lifting. Borthwick would certainly be much closer to the exit if Smith hadn’t hit that drop goal… Then again you could say Borthwick would be sitting pretty if Itoje had held onto a restart and Ford’s penalty went 4m to the left… Borthwick’s England tenure has been one of sliding doors.
For me, regardless of being weak in some positions as mentioned and not having a proper international defensive system in place, mindset has always been our issue and has been the difference in the tight games against the best teams in the World.
Absolutely agree with your point on Jack Willis being chosen to play for England despite playing in France.The coach should be able to choose the best team available wherever they play.
I agree that the situation is far from dire for England. The biggest disappointment from an English perspective is that England didn't kick on from the NZ tour to the autumn. That said, I don't see England beating France in the 6 Nations. Right now, I think that SA, NZ and France are on another level, followed by the group of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Argentina, with England having the highest ceiling of those four going forward.
A scrappy year in terms of results, but a positive one in bringing in some new players and playing some more exciting rugby than the previous few years. Tighten up the defence and we'll be a fearsome team. I just hope no rash decisions are made to coaching until after we see how the 6 Nations goes.
Really enjoying the channel, Tim. Keep up the good work! Agree with all you said, and the potential of the team is massive. I worry that with defence as clearly the biggest work on, why we have replaced arguably the best defence coach in the world with the head coach of a team at the bottom of the French second division with (I think) no previous international experience. I hope it works out, but seems a massive risk…
Borthwick tends to select on past form rather than current. This led to mistakes in the Autumn by bring three players back from injury too soon, before they had re-established their form. This has not helped the team or the player's reputation.
2024 I would give 4/10. Alot of promise, but failing to deliver. I would stick with Borthwick til 2027 to give him the time to fulfil this promise and avoid another big coaching payout which the RFU can ill afford.
Hi Tim. Tigers fan here. if Pollock is not in the england training squad for the 6Ns I will be upset. he could be our dupont. He is 19 and i feel like I am watching an amazing player who has been plying their trade there for years
Before watching the video I would give us a 4-5/10. Bar Italy and Wales to start with it felt like there was a new way of playing and some healthy optimism in the team but just ended up on the wrong side of some results. Towards the end of the year it began to get frustrating because the rugby wasn’t as good and we continued to fall on the wrong side of the results
The world ranking is a concern - a year out from RWC seeding where if you’re not in top four you’re in trouble. Borthwick clearly is targeting RWC 2027, I imagine he *really* wanted more wins over development this year
Generous 4/10. RFU must change eligibility rules to give England any realistic hope of competing with the best. SB and coaches need to improve drastically or be replaced, 6 Nations will decide their future. Wish them good fortune.
Jack Willis may be the best English 7 currently playing. However I reckon if he played in those AI's he makes zero tangible difference. Reminds me of a similar scenario with Steffon Armitage but that was when England really were struggling for out and out open sides.
I'm a bit late to this one but here's my tuppence worth. Agree with a lot of what you said and a 4 seems about right. With regard to the centre issue I feel we need a bit of a rethink. In an ideal world we'd have a bosher to play at 12 but we simply don't have one available and trying to turn Lawrence into that player just doesn't work - he's powerful but physics is against him. Therefore there need to turn to plan b which is to have a link player there and I'd like to see either Dingwall (Northampton do pretty well in attack with him there) given another go or Lozowski (spelling?) and have Lawrence at 13 (I'd also like to see Northmore given a shot at some point but, as you say, the backline is already very inexperienced). But to make it work we'd need an experienced attack coach with a proven track record whilst we're lumbered with Wigglesworth.
Totally agree I’d love to see 2x Willis 6&7 over 2x Curry We’re a bit short in places and a plethora of riches in others I think overall I’d agree 4 /10 we’ve got a world class 15 not yet a world class 23 must do better
England don’t have any other options at centre!? YES WE DO! And it should have been done already move Freeman to centre fgs it’s so obvious! Then pick 2 speedsters out & out wingers on the wings!! Look at SA & French wingers!
I don't see that selection as that obvious. Freeman has started 12 games in the centre in his life. It *could work but not convinced it's a silver bullet.
Thank you so much for this amazing video! Just a quick off-topic question: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?
4 out of 10. Gone backwards since the WC and the following 6Ns… based on the AI’s where everyone was suggesting 4-0 would be doable (unrealistic), but 3-1 would be acceptable, 2-2 being a miss, and anything else a disaster… close games need to be converted, and they failed to convert them…
I absolutely agree the doom and gloom is unwarranted, as the England U20s coming through look set to rip up the current script. You can't win and please all of the fans all of the time, but equally none of the media any of the time!! The respective (6 Nations) Unions are also culpable in creating bad relations with players over the most nonsensical matters. Back in the day, the SRU asked an international player to deputise for a team mate who was due to speak at a hospitality event at Murrayfield, but got stuck in heavy traffic. Said deputy agreed, but as he wasn't there on official duties, he didn't have his SRU tie with him. "No problem - we'll get you one" came the reply. A few days later, the bill from the SRU for the tie arrived! Around this time, the ill feeling was so intense, that the players told the governing body in no uncertain terms, "we play for Scotland, not the SRU!" The initials SRU were subsequently removed from future team jerseys as a result, and to my knowledge, have never featured since.
I think England's problems are the same as Ireland's (lack of props, issues with lineout) but we just hide it better apart from the lineout which is a disgrace. The major difference is England's younger players will develop and be ready for the world cup whereas a lot of ours will have retired by then. Also England could field two teams of 15 easier than Ireland can as Farrell prefers to rely on the first team.
Allowing the selection of overseas based players is a double edged sword, just ask South Africa - if all of their literally hundreds of overseas based players were obligated to ply their trade in ZA, their local franchises would be significantly stronger, to the point where I would wager they would be absolutely dominating the URC and Champions Cup. If England for example had to open up their rules, the cream of the local crop would no doubt jump ship for France and Japan, leaving a bunch of foreigners, inexperienced youngsters and also-rans to pick up the pieces. Sure, it might work in the England national team's favour, but it will significantly diminish the already flagging English club circuit 🤘
Have to change the international player rules, cant attact the star talent we used to anyway and if you have a team youll keep following regardless. South africa is a brilliant blend of school rugby (potions) and the incentive to earn your place then make a killing around the world knowing you can still play for your country.
Respectfully, this is you at your most frustrating. Let’s go with “ever the optimist”. All the near misses, all the growing pains, all the reasons or excuses you can conjure… can’t circumvent the fact that it’s sports, it’s results-driven, and 5 years down the line no one is going to remember the qualifications. We lost a lot of games this year, with the resources and potential to have to won a lot more. The caveats can only be used to have some hope for looking forward. But it was a bad year. A C+ year being rather generous. And hold up, no centre stock???? Now we’re going with delusional. Fraser Dingwall? Just because Borthwick isn’t picking good players doesn’t mean we don’t have them.
🎯 Borthwick playing favourites is destined to lead us back to the early 80s. And I saw _all_ those 5 nations defeats. We were a nightmare as there were so many better players performing at their clubs.
I think the delusion is not realizing it’s a coaching problem and it will be very late if it goes much further than the 6 nations. The team are great but the coaches want to play a game that Marcus can’t plat, but there is too much pressure on the coaches want to not to leave him out. Build a team around fin smith. Of course you are right to believe they can beat Ireland and France so many big games over the last few years are won and lost by a point or two and England have been involved in many of them.
I wouldn’t agree with that Marcus Smith has been England’s best player this Autumn Nations Series so I wouldn’t say it’s a system he can’t play - the problem I have is they keep playing him at full back when this is clearly not his best position. I love the guy and he’s an incredible talent at 10 but he’s never put in a standout performance at full back for either England or Quins so why does we keep playing him there?
@ he was terrible in the champions league he certainly can win you a game be can also cost you a game, remember he wasn’t the 10 when England beat Ireland . He’s a guy who creates but has an extremely low rate of passing. A great player but is he a great team player.
@@davidwalker2402 I’m sorry but that is a bizarre reply. You originally said he can’t play in a Borthwick England system and your reply is he played a bad game for his club with a completely different system against a side with double the budget and weren’t the favourites to win anyway. Yes was on the bench in the Ireland game (which he ultimately won let’s not forget) and since then he’s become no.1 for England and been the best player. It baffles me that anyone could think he doesn’t deserve to be starting
@@John-ny7jn look your own words “ he’s an incredible 10 , well he wasn’t an incredible 10 last weekend, and that was my answer to that. So tell us what games in the 10 shirt has he started and won, Japan that’s is an incredible 10 surely would have made a difference in other close games. Ford played a great game against Ireland and that’s why the won . Smith has not proved himself to be an incredible 10 yet.
@@davidwalker2402 so you’re advocating Ford to start ahead of Smith? Let’s have a recap on the ANS quickly England were winning every game Marcus Smith was playing at 10 until he was either substituted or moved to full back apart from the game against the world champions. This included an 8 point lead against New Zealand which George Ford went on to lose almost single handedly. By contrast every game Ford played at 10 he lost for England this autumn. Ford is not a bad player and Borthwick brought him back too quickly after injury but there is zero evidence for why he should be starting ahead of Smith on current form. But let me guess you’ll probably find some game from the under 16s where Marcus played really badly and use that as a reason why he shouldn’t be starting
Hi Tim, sorry a bit off topic here but maybe one for the future, if we had to have a born and bread only WC tomorrow meaning only players born in that country could play, how might a WC turn out. It could be very interesting. Which country will come out tops!! Your views???
SA and France. Although I don't think the measure of where you're born is a good one. Sam Underhill for example. Born in USA because his father was a military man. English, but living abroad. Similar Marcus Smith - he's English but born abroad. Many players move when young. I wouldn't allow the residency rule personally though, I'm not a fan of that, but glad it's 5 years now not 3
If they got at least one win against the ABs and did not lose that Aussie game it could have been 6 or maybe even 6.5 out of 10. Dont forget yhey were competative against the Boks too. But they had those close losses so for me its a 5/10.
There are some great younger English players,Smith being one of them and a number not selected or playing in France. future stars like Willis,Obano Pollock,from Northampton but the standard of Borthwick coaching is club level not international so not much to be positive about😮 Rugby Grinch 😅
England get a 4/10 for me because we saw glimpses of greatness but we struggled seeing off matches which if gets sorted out they can easily go up to an 8
Overall a 6 out of 10. Borthwick a 5 out of 10. I'm generally a supporter of Borthwicks and whilst I fee like the team let him down on a number of occasions in the AIs I also think this is the first time both the picks he did and didn't make were a major issue. Too many players with little or no game time started. International rugby isn't the place to "find" your form it is the place to demonstrate a continuation of current good form. To much talk of players lacking fitness then picking the same players, CCS in particular, who show they aren't fit enough at this level. The omission of Tom Willis feels crazy. Dombrandt had had enough caps to show he simply doesn't cut it at International level. Earl is game but is better suited to a more open game and wider channels. For me he's the 7 we need. He can do pretty much everything Underhill does but is an actual link-player in attack and had pace to challenge the opposition. I expect to be a lone voice but we're running up a blind alley with M Smith at 10. He's an excellent individual but not a great team player unless he has the time to build that understanding. You simply don't get that at International level. I don't think he's a FB either but for me he has a place on the bench where I think his impact could be decisive. We have to balance the 23 better to ensure there isn't such a huge drop off in leadership and quality when the bench comes on. He'll back the same faces for the 6 Nations but all fit I'd like to see: Genge, Dan/Langdon, Stuart, Itoje(C) Martin, Chessum, Earl, T Willis, Mitchell, F Smith, IFW, Dingwall, Lawrence, Freeman, Furbank Baxter, George, Fasogban, T Hill, CCS, Randall, M Smith, Sleightholme.
I think 4 is harsh. More a 5-6 out of ten for me. Losing jones has been disruptive and Borthwick is a bit of a paint by numbers coach who doesn’t have great in game decision making imo. BUT a lot of new faces and not far away from the top level and as an Irish man I’m definitely worried about 1 Feb in Dublin.
You almost have to exclude the games against Japan ... especially since they have the Eddie Jones shackle back & are no longer even Tier-2-worthy. Once you've done that, it looks pretty bleak. Some close losses, but also very narrow wins ... against teams that were well and truly spanked by others. Still, I would have given them a 5. Without Marcus Smith they'd be solid 4's though.
It’s a 4/10 for me given the 5/12 win/loss ratio, poor defence and no sign of shape in attack. Borethick is out of his depth and his coaching team if Borthers Mates don’t cut it. Another 4 wasted years….
As long as the rot at the top exists, the roots will never spread out and gain sustanance sufficient for it to prosper fully. The English RFU, like English politics, resembles a large, rotten to the heartwood, Millenium English oak tree: an ancient monolith, riddled with innumerable parasites . As for the men's 1st XV? 6.5/10.
I maintain that (1) England went backwards from the RWC, and (2) the coaches were not sufficiently capable to improve the squad. Based on results I would give them 4/10, and on performances 4.5/10 (the defence and attack for the AIs was terrible but they were close).
Blaming Slade is ok because he was terrible - but to be honest that was Borthwicks fault given he hadn’t payed - stupid decision. ditto ford - who had not played….
Blaming Slade is ok because he was terrible - but to be honest that was Borthwicks fault given he hadn’t played - stupid decision. ditto ford - who had not played….and curry ….
Blaming Slade is ok because he was terrible - but to be honest that was Borthwicks fault given he hadn’t played - stupid decision. ditto ford - who had not played….and curry ….
J Willis. No one else. Even there watching Toulouse Willis is magnificent but boy that's an easy team to look good in. After a great start on his first cap for England before he went to France my memory is of Willis being pretty average in a couple of 6 Nations games including V France (I may have remembered wrong though)
England consistently have second rate fly half's. You mentioned Farrell who would struggle to get into any southern hemisphere side at provincial level. Smith the current England fly half is streets ahead of Farrell. NZ currently have historically poor fly half's and that is why the All Blacks suddenly look so ordinary.
Couldn't disagree more. Farrell has 6 Prem titles, 3 European titles, second only in points scored to Dan Carter in the history of the sport. Led England to 2nd and 3rd in World Cups, winning Grand Slams, equalling the world record number of consecutive tests wins in history, world and european player of the year nominee many times (winner of some too). After Wilkinson, the best English 10 ever and I have a feeling several of the losses in 2024 would've been wins with his mentality in the side. He's a legend.
@EggchasersRugby One of the consistent differences between northern and southern hemisphere rugby is the selection policies. Here in NZ there is often disbelief at which England players are favoured, though I do think those differences are diminishing. Smith would get selected in NZ, Farrell would not.
do you think protecting the premiership by not selecting those guys playing in France is the same as what Razor is trying to fight against down here... Personally I want Razor to bring back Mounga, Frizell, Leicester F etc etc into the AB wider squad, many NZ pundents and fans dont want us to do what SA are doing but the way i see it, put limits on who can be considered to come back into the ABs based on tests/current form etc, limit the number who can do it say 3~4 a year. Benefits; we dont pay them those years for SR, they get "free" training in a new environment, it lets other NPC players rise to SR sides and get exp in pro level... I dont think losing 3-4 players per SR season is going to do anything worst than what is currently happening, in the end as long as schedules line up (and they do with Japans seasons) we could have our best come back to at least train with the wider AB squad!!!
You can't pick overseas players because it protects the home based clubs, well that didn't work did it Bill, on your watch, with you overseeing all, how many clubs have we lost compared to any other tenure? Do the decent thing and FRO!
This is probably the thing which annoys me most about people who moan about England and 'getting younger guys in'. There's maybe 4 guys in the 23 over 30, we all know going full youth squad with no experienced guys doesn't work, just look at Wales. The average age has been about 26 and people STILL moan. Yes, we do have problems and it's likely more in the back office with 'work environments' and the RFU leadership overall but the squad itself is young and exciting.
Think 5/10, disappointing results but we gave some young prospects their chances (CCS, Baxter, AOF, Sleightholme, probably a couple more I’m forgetting). Actually completely disagree with you on the selection policy, I’m 100% in agreement with it. Without it, we lose all of our best English players to France, who would absolutely leave if they were given the opportunity (more money in a better league, you’re kidding yourself if you most won’t go), the quality of the league worsens, and without the league, our national team doesn’t stand a chance. It might benefit us in the short term, like when we were crying out for Armitage, but in long term, it would be disastrous. Maybe some day the situation will change but right now, it’s a necessity we keep the rules as they are.
Most won't go, because of the JIFF rules, which require 16/17 out of every match day squad to be French. Also, spots are also open to South Africans, Scots, Fijians etc. I won't be nearly as bad as some fear. BUT, when Prem teams are struggling financially, I'd prefer some of the better players to be paid by a French club and divert that money to the next generation of England stars. Limiting a player's earnings by holding their international ambitions hostage feel wrong to me. And doesn't help England.
@ that’s a fair point, I still think we’d be losing our best players; imagine the Premiership without Itoje, Earl, M. Smith, Mitchell, Tom Curry. If we were losing just 5-6 of the best English players to France, I think that alone could cause real damage to the league. I do understand your point, but think we should be doing our best to improve the quality of the league to improve our national team. Appreciate your response though, always enjoy hearing your views, thanks Tim!
Irelands defence is world class, but they suck in offence, lineouts and discipline. Pointless been great in defence if thats all your doing for the most part
Ireland v nz. Lets look, absolutely great in defence, it took 70 minutes for nz to score one try. 13 penalties, lineouts shocking and couldnt string more then 5 phases in attack. The ireland defense coach is doing a good job thats it
@@ianeveratt7273 Italy are not a tier 1 nation nor are wales just now, both behind Fiji in the rankings 🤣 and although England lost by small margins the also only won by small margins Italy 3 wales 2 and Ireland 1 .
I think it's fair to say that the future is bright for England. However the results this year were bad. Only one good win against Ireland, the rest were against poor teams (Japan, Italy and Wales). The third place at the RWC mostly eclipsed England's poor performance during the tournament. I'm most worried about the dip after the 6 nations, they have not been able to maintain the level of performance they've had against France and Ireland. Hopefully they can get back there this year.
@@thomaslequesne5475 Australia beat England in England they also beat tier 1 team Argentina, England beat Ireland by a single point at home last minute and although the came close against NZ they were beaten 3 times. I think 4 is fair on results .
@@davidwalker2402 we've established that England wasn't having a great year and Argentina, although they've been better, are still ways from the top 4 teams in the world. I would argue beating Ireland is more impressive than beating England and Argentina. England also was really competitive against France and NZ, two of the best teams in the world. I think the two seasons were very similar. Giving Australia a better mark is fine by me, but I don't think this much of a difference is justified.
Forget the funding resources being the biggest, how about having the third biggest population next to France and Italy, then look at the poulation numbers of the nations that continually win the WC's and other tournaments. England are lacking something else.
One thing that has really annoyed me about the way this England team is discussed is this myth that they are a young side. Yes, they've lost some experienced players, but everyone (bar maybe SA) has, that's how post world cup years work! By average age, the players they've used this year are right there with Scotland, NZ & Argentina at around 27, and far older than France, Australia, Wales & Italy.
Taking the biggest game for each team in November series (ie the one they went "strongest" for, eg Eng v SA, NZ, Ire v NZ, Arg v Ire etc. England and France lowest average age 26 (identical 26.2 for starting XV, England .3 above for matchday 23 - the Dan Cole effect, ha). New Zealand and Argentina 27. Scotland 28. Ireland 29. South Africa 30. So it stands, this England team is among the youngest in the world. Equal youngest of the Top 7 sides. No "myth" involved, and it does back up the fact that the same group, given a couple of years could well improve significantly. Wales are 26.3 - same as Eng and France pretty much, Australia are 26.1, a fraction younger and Italy the 6N/Rugby Championship sides at 25.7. Thanks for the interaction!
@@EggchasersRugby Ireland and SA are in their own category, beyond Sexton, neither lost much after the last World Cup. All the other big rugby nations did, including England, while Australia had to perform an even bigger overhaul and recovery. My point isn't that England don't have promising young players, they very obviously do, it is that they are not in some unique rebuilding situation and are, as the numbers suggest, in a very similar spot age profile wise to France, NZ & Argentina, but have worse results than all the above. Also, when you pick one game like that, rather than an average age over a whole season, it's pretty easy to skew results, e.g. England picking JvP over Spencer in that SA game pushed down that teams' average age by .67....
Agree on this - and also, many current and former players say it, JJ was one of the best defending 13s in that notoriously difficult channel. Not a big hitter, but had perfect timing, never got run over, and just could preempt the play so well. I remember watching him at 13 in the 2016 Aus tour and just whenever it got out to the wide channel in Aus attack.. it was stopped, dead. Really underrated defender, and quality attacker as we know. We have struggled since he moved on out of Test level. Think it was mainly Kerevi opposite him in 2016 too - big powerful bloke, tried running at and through JJ, didn’t get any change .. tried running around him.. also none given.
@Alex-mj5dv The rush defence would totally nullify what he was so good at, matadoring the attacker to one side then flooring them. Loved JJ in his prime.
5 out of 10. No more. We have some very good players coming through in nearly all positions. Apparently, not fit enough according to Mr Borthwick. Maybe. But I doubt it. They're all putting a shift in but there are too many mistakes under pressure. I reckon it's much more mental than physical. We're back to the play-book again. Trying to engineer the ball over the try-line. Doesn't work...give them the freedom to play heads-up rugby.
Yeh England haven’t been great but look on the bright side - Bill Sweeney can now afford a 2nd yacht 👍👍👍
Haha
He can bring back Willis marchant and a revamped Kyle sinckler.
6/10 for me. We not been good enough but still feel enough optimism due to this young but very talented team. Not having it Borthwick is inexperienced or not good enough. I’ve seen some good performances against a fixture list this year that has been extreme for a new team. 🏴
Well balanced review Tim. England’s youth is a huge advantage if the positive trends in the areas that improved this year continue. Agree that the RFU needs to re-think their policy re players outside the Prem.
as long as bill is financially sound we should be happy
As a French fan, I find the England team a bit like the French team before Fabien Galthié, with a lot of ‘encouraging defeats’ as the French press used to say. It was very frustrating for the young fan that I was and I'm really enjoying my team's current form. I totally agree that Jack Willis is one of the best in his position in the world. For me it's a 5/10 with a special mention for Cunningham-South who I've really discovered this year and who has impressed me every time I've seen him play.
My thoughts as a neutral:
- England have shown a lot of promise, put in good performances with some unlucky results
- They have a young squad with exciting talent
- but things will never change so long as Bill Sweeney is in charge
and antoine du pont is your favourite player😂
@ ?
@ and?
@@subbie5498 You would be hard pressed to find someone who didn't think Du Pont isn't at least in the conversation for best player in the world. He could walk into literally any national team.
@@stiofain88only if he plays at loftus or eden park
It’s a 4 from me. I find it hard to fathom how a team with this level of resource can be so low in the world ranking. An elite team requires an elite coaching set up. This doesn’t seem to be the case. This has to be based on results and they haven’t been good enough.
I agree I was suprised the ABs didnt lose any of those matches, esp the first 2 after the clear out of coaching staff and key AB players!
I agree so much about the press and reactionary fans.
I remember when Eddie Jones picked robshaw and haskell for his first game and the fans were disgusted.
He hadnt even coached one game!!!!! That was the start of his record run 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Amen
The thing that really gets me about not being able to select players playing abroad is that it should be a World Rugby rule, not up to individual countries. Of course it should be allowed. It only serves to improve the game as a whole in giving the players extra high level experience and making them better individually. I reckon it's part of the reason SA are so good at the moment.
If New Zealand beat South Africa next year, will you say that system is better?
@@joedennehy386
No, I wouldn't. I still think players should be able to play abroad and still be selected for their country. If a nation's coach doesn't feel the need to select such players, fair enough, but they should be eligible.
Either that or no country can be allowed to do it. But that would be very hard on smaller rugby nations, like the south sea islanders.
I get your point, but imagine all the best players in your home club go play abroad in France or Japan etc. Club rugby would become even worse than it already has become.
@@darraghgeaney1602 I agree, that's a tricky one, and is the reason the RFU gives, I believe. I don't know how true it is, but top players going abroad leaves room for younger guns to get into the first team. Maybe that promotes a better through-put of talent. At the moment we lose the top guys, but a change of the rule would still allow them to be picked for the country. No clear cut answer really.
@@robinguitar Yeah you have another good point. It's very much a grey area unfortunately
Unless the RFU resign English rugby is on a down ward same team no new face's tickets are expensive I've been going to Twickenham for 40 years but feel it has lost its soul
The fact that they changed it to "Allianz Stadium" only reinforces your point. Soulless. Corporate. The opposite of what rugby should be.
I wouldn’t even mind all that if the RFU was doing well in other areas but there is literally no metric by which they have improved the game since Bill Sweeney took charge in 2019 - commercial, participation, tradition, investment have all gone down
The only thing that’s gone up has been the bonuses
How dare they drop the iconic name Twickenham. Who do you think you are Bill Sweeney.Went for a song at £200million, to a company like Allianze that's change down the back of the sofa 😢😢
As a Saffa I score England a 4/10
Its great to be a fan, and there are a lot of good things to look forward to, but based on 2024, only one significant win is not good. without looking forward, its a 4 for me
great minds think alike
After 10 seconds that was my assessment.
4/10 or a D.
The pragmatism of the World Cup was fine but we needed more than that this year.
Borthwick seems to be drifting towards playing favourites and I don’t like it.
3/10 sorry, no faith in Borthwick & his staff. I'm not an Exeter fan, but for me Rob Baxter is an exceptional talent, & someone I think the vast majority could respect & work with. (Not sure he'd accept though.)
Ship has sailed on Baxter and the last four? seasons have increasingly shown him as a busted flush wedded to one way of playing and with an inability to adapt to the game changing.
He's tried to buy in the best and brightest from other clubs Academies and Wales and failed in most cases to develop them. IFW was always going to come good but him aside most of those bought in have plateaued or declined.
I know that what I am going to say might ruffle some feathers but I honestly think the problem lies with a sense of exceptionalism amongst England’s fans and media. Inherently there is an expectation that they should be wiping the floor with everyone. When that doesn’t happen, everything about the team is immediately crap and then everyone piles on the team and coaches. It’s a strange bit of national psychology the tears itself up from the inside. A lack of patience and a tendency towards binary extremes(great/crap) doesn’t help. The England team looks dangerous. They need time.
I agree with a lot of what you mention about England and the general psychology. A new attitude wouldn't go a-miss
I've talked about this myself. The Premiership isn't nearly as good as it was in terms of nurturing international level players. The players often not nearly as good as many think (which relates back to the Premiership). Still, have a enough to be very competitive.
I agree, this whole issue where Borthwick can't play any players who play abroad is ridiculous.
5/10 (not England fan).
England are (slowly) building. People who think they are going backwards are the same people who got carried away by a world cup in which the only tier 1 team they beat was Argentina.
The 6N will show if there has been any real improvement.
very equitable review. future looks bright player wise. I believe Farrell senior would win the 6N with those players. I'll refrain from any other comments on coaching.
before I saw your score and analysis sir I thought 5 or 6 - Im with you, the whole doom n gloom is dramatic - a couple of things going the other way and we'd have some good wins under the belt. The dissapointments for me were the Scotland game in the 6N and the Australia game in the Autumn series - however we were the only side to beat Ireland in the 6N and came very close in the autumn series and tour games - some of the defence errors were alarming - so perhaps thats what is getting the pearl clutching - but seems like the sudden departure of the defence coach would explain that
England this year have been a solid team surrounded by negative press and publicity. They had a good book of moves, which allbeit was quite conservative, worked in the world cup.
With all the scores there its clear the team had 95% of their game put together. That 5% could be down to mentality of the players where week in week out theyre hearing reports and articles where there is nothing positive said about what is realistically not as bad as people say.
Only thing I would change about england is bill 'swindler' sweenys salary/bonus (or just get rid of him and appoint someone who cares about the development of England).
Imagine a back row of Hill,Willis & Earl with Cunningham &Pollock on bench 😊
The Ireland win is indeed doing a lot of heavy lifting. Borthwick would certainly be much closer to the exit if Smith hadn’t hit that drop goal…
Then again you could say Borthwick would be sitting pretty if Itoje had held onto a restart and Ford’s penalty went 4m to the left…
Borthwick’s England tenure has been one of sliding doors.
Fair assessment!
6/10 for me. Promise but need to learn to win those close games.
England are a bit of a mystery at the moment, I don't think they're far away at all and will worry about them before they meet Ireland during the 6N.
For me, regardless of being weak in some positions as mentioned and not having a proper international defensive system in place, mindset has always been our issue and has been the difference in the tight games against the best teams in the World.
Absolutely agree with your point on Jack Willis being chosen to play for England despite playing in France.The coach should be able to choose the best team available wherever they play.
I agree that the situation is far from dire for England. The biggest disappointment from an English perspective is that England didn't kick on from the NZ tour to the autumn.
That said, I don't see England beating France in the 6 Nations.
Right now, I think that SA, NZ and France are on another level, followed by the group of England, Ireland, Scotland, and Argentina, with England having the highest ceiling of those four going forward.
A scrappy year in terms of results, but a positive one in bringing in some new players and playing some more exciting rugby than the previous few years. Tighten up the defence and we'll be a fearsome team. I just hope no rash decisions are made to coaching until after we see how the 6 Nations goes.
England have a media problem you guys have a great team they're improving
The only thing the English press loves doing more than hyping our sports stars is tearing them down. Look at Farrell.
Fozzie was fired with a 70% win rate. 42% is unacceptable
@@joedennehy386 win rate is an awful metric
Really enjoying the channel, Tim. Keep up the good work! Agree with all you said, and the potential of the team is massive. I worry that with defence as clearly the biggest work on, why we have replaced arguably the best defence coach in the world with the head coach of a team at the bottom of the French second division with (I think) no previous international experience. I hope it works out, but seems a massive risk…
Borthwick tends to select on past form rather than current. This led to mistakes in the Autumn by bring three players back from injury too soon, before they had re-established their form. This has not helped the team or the player's reputation.
2024 I would give 4/10. Alot of promise, but failing to deliver. I would stick with Borthwick til 2027 to give him the time to fulfil this promise and avoid another big coaching payout which the RFU can ill afford.
Alot of. Asilly and alazy error. 😅
@smythharris2635 anomates! 😂😂😂
Hi Tim. Tigers fan here. if Pollock is not in the england training squad for the 6Ns I will be upset. he could be our dupont. He is 19 and i feel like I am watching an amazing player who has been plying their trade there for years
From a saffa. Some mental fortitude and some time they will go strength to strength!
Before watching the video I would give us a 4-5/10. Bar Italy and Wales to start with it felt like there was a new way of playing and some healthy optimism in the team but just ended up on the wrong side of some results. Towards the end of the year it began to get frustrating because the rugby wasn’t as good and we continued to fall on the wrong side of the results
The world ranking is a concern - a year out from RWC seeding where if you’re not in top four you’re in trouble. Borthwick clearly is targeting RWC 2027, I imagine he *really* wanted more wins over development this year
Generous 4/10. RFU must change eligibility rules to give England any realistic hope of competing with the best. SB and coaches need to improve drastically or be replaced, 6 Nations will decide their future. Wish them good fortune.
Jack Willis may be the best English 7 currently playing. However I reckon if he played in those AI's he makes zero tangible difference. Reminds me of a similar scenario with Steffon Armitage but that was when England really were struggling for out and out open sides.
7/10
The team/players are nearly there, but coaching turnover, some game tactics, and some questionable selection choices are an issue
Mainly, some older players still getting selected and players coming back from injury/not on great form getting selected and players
A 7? Really?
Great assessment.
England played really well in Autumn series. Could have been a win against the Boks
I'm a bit late to this one but here's my tuppence worth.
Agree with a lot of what you said and a 4 seems about right.
With regard to the centre issue I feel we need a bit of a rethink. In an ideal world we'd have a bosher to play at 12 but we simply don't have one available and trying to turn Lawrence into that player just doesn't work - he's powerful but physics is against him. Therefore there need to turn to plan b which is to have a link player there and I'd like to see either Dingwall (Northampton do pretty well in attack with him there) given another go or Lozowski (spelling?) and have Lawrence at 13 (I'd also like to see Northmore given a shot at some point but, as you say, the backline is already very inexperienced).
But to make it work we'd need an experienced attack coach with a proven track record whilst we're lumbered with Wigglesworth.
very balanced as always Tim. Thanks
Totally agree I’d love to see 2x Willis 6&7 over 2x Curry
We’re a bit short in places and a plethora of riches in others I think overall I’d agree 4 /10
we’ve got a world class 15 not yet a world class 23 must do better
A couple of giant, horrible props would make a big difference.
@ Baxter Davison Opoku-Fordjour Iyogun still green let em develop we’ll see I’m sure I’ve missed a couple
England don’t have any other options at centre!? YES WE DO! And it should have been done already move Freeman to centre fgs it’s so obvious! Then pick 2 speedsters out & out wingers on the wings!! Look at SA & French wingers!
I don't see that selection as that obvious. Freeman has started 12 games in the centre in his life. It *could work but not convinced it's a silver bullet.
They're either winning, or very close to winning, basically all of their games. Very competitive side. Seems like 4/10 is a bit harsh
C+
They proved they could hang v good teams like the AB’s.
Beat Ireland and only had narrow losses with only 2 by more than 7 points 🤷🏽♂️
Thank you so much for this amazing video! Just a quick off-topic question: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). What's the best way to send them to Binance?
4 out of 10. Gone backwards since the WC and the following 6Ns… based on the AI’s where everyone was suggesting 4-0 would be doable (unrealistic), but 3-1 would be acceptable, 2-2 being a miss, and anything else a disaster… close games need to be converted, and they failed to convert them…
I absolutely agree the doom and gloom is unwarranted, as the England U20s coming through look set to rip up the current script. You can't win and please all of the fans all of the time, but equally none of the media any of the time!! The respective (6 Nations) Unions are also culpable in creating bad relations with players over the most nonsensical matters. Back in the day, the SRU asked an international player to deputise for a team mate who was due to speak at a hospitality event at Murrayfield, but got stuck in heavy traffic. Said deputy agreed, but as he wasn't there on official duties, he didn't have his SRU tie with him. "No problem - we'll get you one" came the reply. A few days later, the bill from the SRU for the tie arrived! Around this time, the ill feeling was so intense, that the players told the governing body in no uncertain terms, "we play for Scotland, not the SRU!" The initials SRU were subsequently removed from future team jerseys as a result, and to my knowledge, have never featured since.
I think England's problems are the same as Ireland's (lack of props, issues with lineout) but we just hide it better apart from the lineout which is a disgrace. The major difference is England's younger players will develop and be ready for the world cup whereas a lot of ours will have retired by then. Also England could field two teams of 15 easier than Ireland can as Farrell prefers to rely on the first team.
Allowing the selection of overseas based players is a double edged sword, just ask South Africa - if all of their literally hundreds of overseas based players were obligated to ply their trade in ZA, their local franchises would be significantly stronger, to the point where I would wager they would be absolutely dominating the URC and Champions Cup. If England for example had to open up their rules, the cream of the local crop would no doubt jump ship for France and Japan, leaving a bunch of foreigners, inexperienced youngsters and also-rans to pick up the pieces. Sure, it might work in the England national team's favour, but it will significantly diminish the already flagging English club circuit 🤘
Mate, I would give us a 6/10 ..... we are not that far away!!!! C'mon England
5 out of 10. D
Celebrating winning the 3rd place match is damning with faint prise if ever I heard it.
I didn't "celebrate" winning bronze. But i DID think it was a good outcome given the mess coming into the world cup.
Have to change the international player rules, cant attact the star talent we used to anyway and if you have a team youll keep following regardless.
South africa is a brilliant blend of school rugby (potions) and the incentive to earn your place then make a killing around the world knowing you can still play for your country.
Respectfully, this is you at your most frustrating. Let’s go with “ever the optimist”. All the near misses, all the growing pains, all the reasons or excuses you can conjure… can’t circumvent the fact that it’s sports, it’s results-driven, and 5 years down the line no one is going to remember the qualifications. We lost a lot of games this year, with the resources and potential to have to won a lot more. The caveats can only be used to have some hope for looking forward. But it was a bad year. A C+ year being rather generous. And hold up, no centre stock???? Now we’re going with delusional. Fraser Dingwall? Just because Borthwick isn’t picking good players doesn’t mean we don’t have them.
🎯
Borthwick playing favourites is destined to lead us back to the early 80s. And I saw _all_ those 5 nations defeats. We were a nightmare as there were so many better players performing at their clubs.
I think England actually were pretty good regardless of the issues with the rfu, I'd go with a 6/10
I think the delusion is not realizing it’s a coaching problem and it will be very late if it goes much further than the 6 nations. The team are great but the coaches want to play a game that Marcus can’t plat, but there is too much pressure on the coaches want to not to leave him out. Build a team around fin smith. Of course you are right to believe they can beat Ireland and France so many big games over the last few years are won and lost by a point or two and England have been involved in many of them.
I wouldn’t agree with that Marcus Smith has been England’s best player this Autumn Nations Series so I wouldn’t say it’s a system he can’t play - the problem I have is they keep playing him at full back when this is clearly not his best position. I love the guy and he’s an incredible talent at 10 but he’s never put in a standout performance at full back for either England or Quins so why does we keep playing him there?
@ he was terrible in the champions league he certainly can win you a game be can also cost you a game, remember he wasn’t the 10 when England beat Ireland . He’s a guy who creates but has an extremely low rate of passing. A great player but is he a great team player.
@@davidwalker2402 I’m sorry but that is a bizarre reply. You originally said he can’t play in a Borthwick England system and your reply is he played a bad game for his club with a completely different system against a side with double the budget and weren’t the favourites to win anyway. Yes was on the bench in the Ireland game (which he ultimately won let’s not forget) and since then he’s become no.1 for England and been the best player. It baffles me that anyone could think he doesn’t deserve to be starting
@@John-ny7jn look your own words “ he’s an incredible 10 , well he wasn’t an incredible 10 last weekend, and that was my answer to that. So tell us what games in the 10 shirt has he started and won, Japan that’s is an incredible 10 surely would have made a difference in other close games. Ford played a great game against Ireland and that’s why the won . Smith has not proved himself to be an incredible 10 yet.
@@davidwalker2402 so you’re advocating Ford to start ahead of Smith? Let’s have a recap on the ANS quickly England were winning every game Marcus Smith was playing at 10 until he was either substituted or moved to full back apart from the game against the world champions. This included an 8 point lead against New Zealand which George Ford went on to lose almost single handedly. By contrast every game Ford played at 10 he lost for England this autumn. Ford is not a bad player and Borthwick brought him back too quickly after injury but there is zero evidence for why he should be starting ahead of Smith on current form. But let me guess you’ll probably find some game from the under 16s where Marcus played really badly and use that as a reason why he shouldn’t be starting
England could have such a strong side without the RFU agreement. It's limiting and hurting Englands potential
Hi Tim, sorry a bit off topic here but maybe one for the future, if we had to have a born and bread only WC tomorrow meaning only players born in that country could play, how might a WC turn out. It could be very interesting. Which country will come out tops!! Your views???
SA and France. Although I don't think the measure of where you're born is a good one. Sam Underhill for example. Born in USA because his father was a military man. English, but living abroad. Similar Marcus Smith - he's English but born abroad. Many players move when young.
I wouldn't allow the residency rule personally though, I'm not a fan of that, but glad it's 5 years now not 3
@@EggchasersRugby Born and bread as a matter of interest or just for the heck of it or for the interest of it!!
If they got at least one win against the ABs and did not lose that Aussie game it could have been 6 or maybe even 6.5 out of 10. Dont forget yhey were competative against the Boks too. But they had those close losses so for me its a 5/10.
As a kiwi, I don't think England are too far from winning more consistently against tier 1 sides.
There are some great younger English players,Smith being one of them and a number not selected or playing in France. future stars like Willis,Obano Pollock,from Northampton but the standard of Borthwick coaching is club level not international so not much to be positive about😮 Rugby Grinch 😅
As long as England don't fall into the Wales trap with young players where the only experience they are getting is knowing how to lose.
4/10 for 2024. 6/10 for 2025
England get a 4/10 for me because we saw glimpses of greatness but we struggled seeing off matches which if gets sorted out they can easily go up to an 8
On balance, I think Australia was worse than England this year. Aus losses were emphatic. Eng 4 and Aus 6.5? Maybe the other way around.
Jeez , 4 outa 10 Tim , thats a bit rough , England were in the mix in all the big games , they're at least worthy a 7 , c'mon John (NZ)
I would have had then as a 4 as well
Overall a 6 out of 10. Borthwick a 5 out of 10.
I'm generally a supporter of Borthwicks and whilst I fee like the team let him down on a number of occasions in the AIs I also think this is the first time both the picks he did and didn't make were a major issue.
Too many players with little or no game time started. International rugby isn't the place to "find" your form it is the place to demonstrate a continuation of current good form. To much talk of players lacking fitness then picking the same players, CCS in particular, who show they aren't fit enough at this level.
The omission of Tom Willis feels crazy. Dombrandt had had enough caps to show he simply doesn't cut it at International level. Earl is game but is better suited to a more open game and wider channels. For me he's the 7 we need. He can do pretty much everything Underhill does but is an actual link-player in attack and had pace to challenge the opposition.
I expect to be a lone voice but we're running up a blind alley with M Smith at 10. He's an excellent individual but not a great team player unless he has the time to build that understanding. You simply don't get that at International level. I don't think he's a FB either but for me he has a place on the bench where I think his impact could be decisive.
We have to balance the 23 better to ensure there isn't such a huge drop off in leadership and quality when the bench comes on.
He'll back the same faces for the 6 Nations but all fit I'd like to see:
Genge, Dan/Langdon, Stuart, Itoje(C) Martin, Chessum, Earl, T Willis, Mitchell, F Smith, IFW, Dingwall, Lawrence, Freeman, Furbank
Baxter, George, Fasogban, T Hill, CCS, Randall, M Smith, Sleightholme.
I think 4 is harsh. More a 5-6 out of ten for me. Losing jones has been disruptive and Borthwick is a bit of a paint by numbers coach who doesn’t have great in game decision making imo. BUT a lot of new faces and not far away from the top level and as an Irish man I’m definitely worried about 1 Feb in Dublin.
You almost have to exclude the games against Japan ... especially since they have the Eddie Jones shackle back & are no longer even Tier-2-worthy.
Once you've done that, it looks pretty bleak. Some close losses, but also very narrow wins ... against teams that were well and truly spanked by others.
Still, I would have given them a 5. Without Marcus Smith they'd be solid 4's though.
4.5/10
Showing progress, but needed to land a couple of results. Their defense needs work
It’s a 4/10 for me given the 5/12 win/loss ratio, poor defence and no sign of shape in attack. Borethick is out of his depth and his coaching team if Borthers Mates don’t cut it. Another 4 wasted years….
Really want Farrell to take Willis with the lions
Slap the RFU with a cold fish
Let’s not forget Farrell himself probably isn’t the biggest fan of the RFU after being sacked by them
that would be class
As long as the rot at the top exists, the roots will never spread out and gain sustanance sufficient for it to prosper fully. The English RFU, like English politics, resembles a large, rotten to the heartwood, Millenium English oak tree: an ancient monolith, riddled with innumerable parasites . As for the men's 1st XV? 6.5/10.
I maintain that (1) England went backwards from the RWC, and (2) the coaches were not sufficiently capable to improve the squad. Based on results I would give them 4/10, and on performances 4.5/10 (the defence and attack for the AIs was terrible but they were close).
Blaming Slade is ok because he was terrible - but to be honest that was Borthwicks fault given he hadn’t payed - stupid decision. ditto ford - who had not played….
Blaming Slade is ok because he was terrible - but to be honest that was Borthwicks fault given he hadn’t played - stupid decision. ditto ford - who had not played….and curry ….
Blaming Slade is ok because he was terrible - but to be honest that was Borthwicks fault given he hadn’t played - stupid decision. ditto ford - who had not played….and curry ….
Getting the right players on the pitch, selection is an issue. With the best 23 picked and used to best effect, England could be good
Who are those 23 for you? That Borthwick could pick so not France based.
If we could select overseas exiles, who's in or back that will push for a starting slot? Against say, France?)
J Willis. No one else. Even there watching Toulouse Willis is magnificent but boy that's an easy team to look good in. After a great start on his first cap for England before he went to France my memory is of Willis being pretty average in a couple of 6 Nations games including V France (I may have remembered wrong though)
Are English coaches chosen by Welsh, Irish and Scottish supporters?
4 out of 10
England consistently have second rate fly half's. You mentioned Farrell who would struggle to get into any southern hemisphere side at provincial level. Smith the current England fly half is streets ahead of Farrell. NZ currently have historically poor fly half's and that is why the All Blacks suddenly look so ordinary.
Couldn't disagree more. Farrell has 6 Prem titles, 3 European titles, second only in points scored to Dan Carter in the history of the sport. Led England to 2nd and 3rd in World Cups, winning Grand Slams, equalling the world record number of consecutive tests wins in history, world and european player of the year nominee many times (winner of some too). After Wilkinson, the best English 10 ever and I have a feeling several of the losses in 2024 would've been wins with his mentality in the side. He's a legend.
@EggchasersRugby One of the consistent differences between northern and southern hemisphere rugby is the selection policies. Here in NZ there is often disbelief at which England players are favoured, though I do think those differences are diminishing. Smith would get selected in NZ, Farrell would not.
B+, 7 out of 10. To come so close to the very best teams in the World has to be a positive score
Nonsense
do you think protecting the premiership by not selecting those guys playing in France is the same as what Razor is trying to fight against down here... Personally I want Razor to bring back Mounga, Frizell, Leicester F etc etc into the AB wider squad, many NZ pundents and fans dont want us to do what SA are doing but the way i see it, put limits on who can be considered to come back into the ABs based on tests/current form etc, limit the number who can do it say 3~4 a year. Benefits; we dont pay them those years for SR, they get "free" training in a new environment, it lets other NPC players rise to SR sides and get exp in pro level... I dont think losing 3-4 players per SR season is going to do anything worst than what is currently happening, in the end as long as schedules line up (and they do with Japans seasons) we could have our best come back to at least train with the wider AB squad!!!
You can't pick overseas players because it protects the home based clubs, well that didn't work did it Bill, on your watch, with you overseeing all, how many clubs have we lost compared to any other tenure? Do the decent thing and FRO!
This is probably the thing which annoys me most about people who moan about England and 'getting younger guys in'. There's maybe 4 guys in the 23 over 30, we all know going full youth squad with no experienced guys doesn't work, just look at Wales. The average age has been about 26 and people STILL moan. Yes, we do have problems and it's likely more in the back office with 'work environments' and the RFU leadership overall but the squad itself is young and exciting.
Well said. This generation will prosper..and will travel to ensure it! Not at the end of their careers too. Maybe the days of 100 caps are done?
I think 4 is a bit harsh mate.
England are not nearly as poor as what your media and some supporters say / think they are.
They are at least a 5 imo.
England are better than the ranking…..but
Think 5/10, disappointing results but we gave some young prospects their chances (CCS, Baxter, AOF, Sleightholme, probably a couple more I’m forgetting).
Actually completely disagree with you on the selection policy, I’m 100% in agreement with it. Without it, we lose all of our best English players to France, who would absolutely leave if they were given the opportunity (more money in a better league, you’re kidding yourself if you most won’t go), the quality of the league worsens, and without the league, our national team doesn’t stand a chance. It might benefit us in the short term, like when we were crying out for Armitage, but in long term, it would be disastrous. Maybe some day the situation will change but right now, it’s a necessity we keep the rules as they are.
Most won't go, because of the JIFF rules, which require 16/17 out of every match day squad to be French. Also, spots are also open to South Africans, Scots, Fijians etc. I won't be nearly as bad as some fear. BUT, when Prem teams are struggling financially, I'd prefer some of the better players to be paid by a French club and divert that money to the next generation of England stars. Limiting a player's earnings by holding their international ambitions hostage feel wrong to me. And doesn't help England.
@ that’s a fair point, I still think we’d be losing our best players; imagine the Premiership without Itoje, Earl, M. Smith, Mitchell, Tom Curry. If we were losing just 5-6 of the best English players to France, I think that alone could cause real damage to the league. I do understand your point, but think we should be doing our best to improve the quality of the league to improve our national team. Appreciate your response though, always enjoy hearing your views, thanks Tim!
Irelands defence is world class, but they suck in offence, lineouts and discipline. Pointless been great in defence if thats all your doing for the most part
Ireland v nz. Lets look, absolutely great in defence, it took 70 minutes for nz to score one try. 13 penalties, lineouts shocking and couldnt string more then 5 phases in attack. The ireland defense coach is doing a good job thats it
England to Win Six Nations 2025 its a good bet
@@EugueneInnis do you mean a good bet because they could win or a good bet because you’ll get good odds 🤣
How many years have we been saying england are nearly there? Im so over it now
Two of the five wins were against a 2nd tier nation, so against 1st tier teams it's W3 L7 which is very poor indeed. 3/10
@@ianeveratt7273 Italy are not a tier 1 nation nor are wales just now, both behind Fiji in the rankings 🤣 and although England lost by small margins the also only won by small margins Italy 3 wales 2 and Ireland 1 .
@@davidwalker2402 I agree I was being generous to England, there was progress in the six nations and summer, but the autumn was a big step back.
rfu - stop gouging the fans, but also the team will deliver
I think it's fair to say that the future is bright for England. However the results this year were bad. Only one good win against Ireland, the rest were against poor teams (Japan, Italy and Wales). The third place at the RWC mostly eclipsed England's poor performance during the tournament.
I'm most worried about the dip after the 6 nations, they have not been able to maintain the level of performance they've had against France and Ireland. Hopefully they can get back there this year.
Still don't think 4 is a fait mark though. 6,5 for Australia and 4 for England ? Seems to me like you're not holding both teams to the same standards.
@@thomaslequesne5475 Australia beat England in England they also beat tier 1 team Argentina, England beat Ireland by a single point at home last minute and although the came close against NZ they were beaten 3 times. I think 4 is fair on results .
@@davidwalker2402 we've established that England wasn't having a great year and Argentina, although they've been better, are still ways from the top 4 teams in the world. I would argue beating Ireland is more impressive than beating England and Argentina.
England also was really competitive against France and NZ, two of the best teams in the world. I think the two seasons were very similar. Giving Australia a better mark is fine by me, but I don't think this much of a difference is justified.
Forget the funding resources being the biggest, how about having the third biggest population next to France and Italy, then look at the poulation numbers of the nations that continually win the WC's and other tournaments. England are lacking something else.
3rd place finish in 6N is decent? If that’s acceptable then is it any wonder we are not winners?
If we were allowed to pick the international players, we couldn't afford Bill Sweeneys bonus !!!
😂😂😂
8/10
One thing that has really annoyed me about the way this England team is discussed is this myth that they are a young side. Yes, they've lost some experienced players, but everyone (bar maybe SA) has, that's how post world cup years work!
By average age, the players they've used this year are right there with Scotland, NZ & Argentina at around 27, and far older than France, Australia, Wales & Italy.
Taking the biggest game for each team in November series (ie the one they went "strongest" for, eg Eng v SA, NZ, Ire v NZ, Arg v Ire etc.
England and France lowest average age 26 (identical 26.2 for starting XV, England .3 above for matchday 23 - the Dan Cole effect, ha).
New Zealand and Argentina 27.
Scotland 28.
Ireland 29.
South Africa 30.
So it stands, this England team is among the youngest in the world. Equal youngest of the Top 7 sides. No "myth" involved, and it does back up the fact that the same group, given a couple of years could well improve significantly.
Wales are 26.3 - same as Eng and France pretty much, Australia are 26.1, a fraction younger and Italy the 6N/Rugby Championship sides at 25.7.
Thanks for the interaction!
@@EggchasersRugby Ireland and SA are in their own category, beyond Sexton, neither lost much after the last World Cup. All the other big rugby nations did, including England, while Australia had to perform an even bigger overhaul and recovery.
My point isn't that England don't have promising young players, they very obviously do, it is that they are not in some unique rebuilding situation and are, as the numbers suggest, in a very similar spot age profile wise to France, NZ & Argentina, but have worse results than all the above.
Also, when you pick one game like that, rather than an average age over a whole season, it's pretty easy to skew results, e.g. England picking JvP over Spencer in that SA game pushed down that teams' average age by .67....
Weird one but are we missing a dynamic centre like jonathan joseph? Seemed to work much better with him.
Marchant WAS that guy.
Agree on this - and also, many current and former players say it, JJ was one of the best defending 13s in that notoriously difficult channel. Not a big hitter, but had perfect timing, never got run over, and just could preempt the play so well. I remember watching him at 13 in the 2016 Aus tour and just whenever it got out to the wide channel in Aus attack.. it was stopped, dead. Really underrated defender, and quality attacker as we know. We have struggled since he moved on out of Test level.
Think it was mainly Kerevi opposite him in 2016 too - big powerful bloke, tried running at and through JJ, didn’t get any change .. tried running around him.. also none given.
@@EggchasersRugby 100% so dynamic, any suggestion he'll return to English rugby?
@Alex-mj5dv The rush defence would totally nullify what he was so good at, matadoring the attacker to one side then flooring them. Loved JJ in his prime.
5 out of 10. No more. We have some very good players coming through in nearly all positions. Apparently, not fit enough according to Mr Borthwick. Maybe. But I doubt it. They're all putting a shift in but there are too many mistakes under pressure. I reckon it's much more mental than physical. We're back to the play-book again. Trying to engineer the ball over the try-line. Doesn't work...give them the freedom to play heads-up rugby.
6 for me