Kinda funny how Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman have all been around nearly the same amount of time and only Superman has held onto a long lasting relationship, hell they even override new 52 just to give us back Lois and Clark from post crisis.
@@therealmr.incredible3179 Not really. Not just biologically incompatible but also Bruce is far too stubborn and focused on protecting Gotham to have a meaningful relationship.
Talia Al Ghul used to be my go to love interest for batman but sometimes I do go for catwoman. Talia Al ghul is such an interesting love interest concept because of the looming apsect of fallen in love with the daughter of one of your greatest enemies of all time. But unfortunately that ship has sailed because of the horrible shit that she did to batman.
I think Wonderwoman is the best love interest for Batman. The idea of Batman having a god falling in love with him amazes him because her love is actually genuinely towards him and you can see that in the DCAU being so well constructed to Batman. Another that is great is Zatanna as well. But definetly people ship more Batman and Catwoman due to be literally the main one, but in my eyes she is just way toxic to him.
@GuilhermeOliveira-qh8wf I agree. Catwoman will never leave the thief life and Wonder Woman is immortal so Batman will eventually die of old age while she'll still live
@@quentinjones6877 That doesn't mean she can't have Bruce's kids and anything. She can't fall in love with Superman tho, it would be to catastrophic as when their pair up they become villains mostly
I really do hate that they just made her into a female version of Rais. When she's way different before these comics that tainted her character. There's a reason why he fell in love with her, she was a flawed character but did truly love Bruce. Now she's just comically evil.
@Astartes-6969 fr it was such a massive waste of the character and now it's the popular version of her(meaning the one everyone knows) I hope one day they turn Talia back to the way she was before
@@jovon2935 What does turning Talia back to being what she was before mean exactly? What would her character be? I am by no means defending her actions. And there would have been other ways for Grant to have her go the villan arc. But she is a woman who herself has been raised in one of the most dangerous criminal organizations on the planet that has dealings with other criminal organizations. Not only that they train their members like a cult with her father having built up his image as being a demi god by using the lazarus pit to cheat death for 6-900 years. Her viewing Damian as the next Alexander and herself Olympias but not wanting to make the same mistake as Olympias by choosing the wrong father. Only for Bruce to turn down her dreams. For a woman who has lived a life where as long as she sets her mind to it and proves that she is capable enough to fight to get it. A dream that Ra's implanted in her from the start as he started to realize that the pit had started losing its effects on him after so many years, and feared there was no one to take his place if he was to perish and the pit couldn't revive him. She's going to jail, but I never felt her actions didn't make sense, in the way religious people have a twisted logic to justify their actions. From the very get go, Ra's with his offer to Bruce to take over the league with Talia by his side is set up to be the biggest temptation you could give Bruce. Not just because she's a beautiful woman. He could take his war on crime on a global scale and, instead of it being a war, it's not hard to imagine that he'd likely be able to turn the planet into a police state. Not unlike the one you see in the Justice Lords universe, or the one created in Neo Gotham Batman Beyond the White Knight. I never saw her as endgame material for Bruce, I always saw her as his test. The only two people I could realistically imagine canon Batman with is Selina or Diana. The reason I say Diana is because Bruce's biggest fear is that whoever he is with, will wind up being a target and used against him. Being with Diana, which of his main regular rouges would stand a chance at taking her down? In a way it would be Bruce choosing the safest love he could given the circumstances of his life. But that it also why I don't think he would do it, he's never going to feel like he deserves it. With Selina there is a certain level of danger, and they both understand each others darker impulses that they fight with all the time.
Talia and Bruce's relationship is a really interesting concept, I'm a sucker for those forbidden love type of stories. But there's no way I can fully support their ship given everything Talia's done to Bruce, the Batfamily and her own son. Any adaption that doesn't have her do horrible and crazy things to the Batfamily I can accept the ship (e.g. In BTAS she's a much more neutral character, and it actually feels like she loves Bruce, but is just caught between him and following her father's command).
@@Watch-0w1 But that doesn't make sense for her character. Especially when you go back to the source material, making her out to be the obsessed girlfriend already takes away the autonomy she already had.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117tbh I feel like Talia and her father felt rushed in city, but Talia did feel like a anti hero at the end when she help Bats, so it was a nice take on her character.
Something I really hope they do with Taila in the DCU is that I hope they make her more of a three dimensional character who isn't completely like her father and her love for Bruce is genuine and she's willing to disobey her father even she feels incredibly guilty about it, instead of her being just as much of a psycho as Ras Al Ghul and even r*** Bruce just to give birth to Damian. I much prefer how the DCAU depicted Taila as she clearly had a love for Bruce but wasn't completely dedicated to her father's vision. Even though I do prefer Bruce and Selina as the endgame Batman couple I do think Talia when written well with more moral complexity to her can be a compelling love interest for Bruce instead of making her lazily evil
Her DCAMU counterpart was great in Batman's son but then the sequels pretty much destroyed her character out of nowhere. I think the best version is definetly in the arkham series.
@@GuilhermeOliveira-qh8wf@GuilhermeOliveira-qh8wf I also really liked that depiction of her too, at least in The Son of Batman movie, where she showed that she truly cared about Damian, albeit slightly neglectful of his feelings but still ultimately loved him and had a passionate love for Bruce even if Bruce didn't reciprocate the same feelings for her. We even see her attempt to make the League of Assasins better and not follow her Ra's Al Ghul's vision of destruction but instead her own path as the new leader of the League of Assasins, which was very promising to have her as a more morally grey character but then she went bads**t crazy and became straight-up evil in Batman: Bad Blood, which was such a whiplash of a character change that really didn't make sense and only made Talia all the more of a hated character. Granted, people prefer her to be evil,l which is fair since she can be adapted in many different ways, but personally, I like to see more adaptions, especially in the DCU, to have her be more interesting as a character and have her love for Bruce be genuine and show how conflicted she is in obeying her father over her love for Bruce and Damian
@@milkiassamuel780 it would have been great. Anything besides the Bat and Cat ship, those 2 always felt like it is great watching as a kid. But as you grow up and understand about relationships, you start to understand that she is just toxic asf. She is contantly being sexually driven, manipulating, stealling and many other things. I think I want to see Bruce to be happy for once like he did in the dark knight rises, although Catwoman over there was a mixed bag, her character arc at the end felt a bit less shallow and more stronger and reliable than she was in the first 2 acts of the movie. I still prefer to see Wonderwoman just like in DCAU days. They actually go pretty well over there, and the idea of her falling in love with Bruce goes great and I still want to see DCAU storytelling being typed into the screen. DCAMU movies and DCAU universe are the best universes to adapt the Justice League. I would argue that the best version of Batman would have been from Arkham games.
I started reading Batman comics from around the Bronze Age with artwork from Marshall Rogers and I was surprised to read that someone named Silver St. Cloud was one of Bruce’s love interests during that period and I actually liked her inclusion and character from what I read. She was a normal woman who worked in organizing events and was Bruce’s gf in his personal life. Bruce is pretty serious about her, even thinking of marrying her, but struggles with how he’d even balance that with being Batman and her not knowing. She finds out he’s Batman anyways without him knowing, struggles with the truth, but decides to sadly walk away from him, because she doesn’t want to bear the emotions and thoughts of Bruce/Batman being killed, since she witnessed Batman chasing I think the Joker in Laughing Fish and almost being killed by him. Good stuff and she returns again in a later story where she gives him a chance to have her before she ultimately leaves Gotham, but Bruce seems to ultimately accept being Batman and not see her. I kinda would like to see more of this now, but I guess that was already done with the Nolan films and ones before.
Man, i hated this change so much. I honestly like Talia and Batman more than Batman and Catwoman, but nope, they made her pill Cosby and ruined her character. Shit sucks man
Yeah I prefer talia as someone thats in the middle between Ras and Bruce. She supports her father and sees the vision hes trying to do, but at the sametime she admires and adores Batman's noble and honorable ways. It would be interesting if the leviathan organization was her branch of the league of assassins but their techniques is a reflection of talia being in the middle.
Selina is someone who naturally developed with him. Who relates to him. And deeply understands him on a physical and emotional level. Wonderwoman is his best friend. Who any man would be lucky to have. Even Vicky vale has been portrayed as someone who deeply cares about him. And wants to support him. Talia has always been someone who he can't trust entirely. And doesn't love him for he is rather what she can provide to her. Which is toxic. Even at her best she is a pawn of her father. Or wants him for her family. Nowadays she's just a straight up villain. Which makes a good story for Damien. But it's hard to see her as a love interest.
Your joking with that Catwoman line right? Once upon a time she didn’t even want anything to do with Batman or when she did have something going with Batman she only wanted Batman not the man under the mask. Let’s not forget her jealous rampages she went on back in the 40s, Talia understands Bruce and Batman as well. If you’d read the original comics that were created by Dennis O’Neil you’d see that. Bruce/Batman symbolizes freedom and Justice; he quite literally is a motif for those said things, and let’s not forget Talia was brought up in a literal cult.
You named the problem in the end. It's the writers who mess up everything from minor inconsistencies to straight-up character assassinating retcons. I'm all for taking some creative liberties, but let's have some consistency instead of borderline resets every run
@@abiodunsulaiman2297not really. She discouraged Damian from going after and following her. With Damian basically telling her to shut up. Which is funny because his current girlfriend, Flatline aka Nika, is a big Talia fan.
1:48, and his brother, Respawn, had it much worse. Not only did he not have the care that Talia provided Damian, be it the teachers and discipline or the being propped up to be the leader of the league, he was regularly harvested for organs to give to Damian and replace the ones he damaged due to his regenerative abilities making it that he would regenerate them.
@@JonesHon-m5h not a clone. He's not like Damian's other bothers. Just artificially made by Ra's from Slade and Talia's DNA in an artificial womb. And has been alive probably as long as Damian. So not artificially aged like Heretic either.
@@JonesHon-m5h first, bad news, they have done. There was even this storyline where a core premise was that whether Damian is Slade's son or not. Second, your explanation is literally what I said. Ra's created Respawn by combining the DNA of Talia and Slade in an artificial womb. And that doesn't mean he isn't a real person. Just the circumstances of his birth are different.
@ Priest had this weird thing making damian slades son instead of Bruce (thank god dc rejected the idea tho)… but yeah respawn is very much dead rn I believe
For Batman it’s hypocritical, he should choose either one of them since they impede on his code to stop ALL criminals but it seems that his go to method is to fuck them 😂.
Technically her change happened in the early 2000s. Not only did Jeff Loeb make her more antagonistic in his run on Superman, and made her relationship with Batman more strained in Hush. But, Geoff Johns would have her be a leader of the Secret Society for the Infinite Crisis event, which lasted for about 3 whole years. Morrison would take over after said event, and would use the reality shattering attacks of Earth-2 Superman & Superboy Prime to drastically change up the Batman canon along with making Talia even more vile after the Ra’s had died back in 2003 Completely coincidental, but Deathstroke also had an extreme villainous change in the 2000s, born from his depiction in the TT Cartoon. Probably in the minority, but I find that one actually worse😂
@@joeker5208 while those events are important, not in a single one of them Talia was as cruel and hateful as in Morrison's Batman run. Even in Hush, she while somewhat annoyed at least was accepting and respecting Selina and Bruce's relationship and was more focused on undermining Luthor and his company. Can't see Morrison's Talia do that. and this was before she was retconed to be a full on assassin since her younger years from Morrison onward. The most people she had unalived by that point were two people. Both of them to save Bruce's life.
@ 1. Sure, but that’s not the point I’m making. The issue I have is that people think the villainous Talia just shows up out of nowhere in Morrison’s run, when that’s just very false. Johns had her be one of the leaders behind the most evil group on the planet. She was apart of and agreed to nuking Bludhaven (which was said to kill at least 100k), was behind the kidnapping of several children around the world for her scheme (as seen in Gail Simone’s Birds of Prey), and knew about/helped with the O.M.A.C. assault (something that was a global attack). 2. The Bronze Age already had the lore that she was trained from birth. O’Neil just had it to where her trials in the League weren’t til her adulthood when she already met Batman. 3. That kill count might work for Pre-Crisis, but not even early Post-Crisis. As in the novel, “Son of The Demon” (which was written by Detective Comics writer, Mike Barr), Talia is flat out gunning down dozens people in her fight scenes. All of which of confirmed as dead, not that is was really up for debate when you’re human and blasted through with an assault rifle😂. And not was that novel under O’Neil’s supervision, but even going back to his first Ra’s story, he had Talia very much okay with his global genocide. It wasn’t ever just “she does what Ra’s tells hers to do because he’s her father”, but she also agrees with a lot of his ideology to a degree. And who can forget Judd Winick having Talia revive Jason Todd and sending him to Gotham with the sole purpose of hurting/killing Batman. All I’m saying is, whether you like or don’t like Morrison’s Talia, he is far from changing the character as she originally was in Pre-Crisis when it comes to her morality
@@mikhaelgribkov4117 I prefer Wolfman’s version, which very much has him as neutral as possible, only ever giving a damn when it pertains to his family. People forget that he was actually friends with the Titans for several years after the Judas Contract. Never cared for him just having a beef with the Titans for a reason in which he got over after actual character development
@@joeker5208 1. I get where you're coming from. I appreciate the explanation. I still somewhat stand by my stance. In none of the stuff you mentioned she does things like cooking someone's family and making them eat it. I feel like Morrison took something and went over 11 with it. And what you say while true has an explanation in regards to the 2000's. In Death and the Maidens Talia is brainwashed via torture by her half-sister Nyssa. After that arc, we do see a harsher Talia where the things with Society and OMAC that you said happen. However, one could tribute her actions to what Nyssa did to her. While in the new 52 Batman Inc and their retelling of Talia's origin to make Talia's story more coherent it Morrison basically makes it that she has always been this corrupt and malicious and she would become this corrupt hateful monster, especially with her drugging Batman to conceive Damian going back to her early days with him. And it's not like she was all doom and glum in early 2000's. She still helped to undermine Luthor from inside of his company and left nothing by selling everything to Wayne Enterprise while he was the president. She also Saves Selina life in Hush and brings Jason back to life against her father’s wishes, originally for Bruce’s sake. 3. I'm not sure about the canonicity of Son of Demon. IIRC Morrison even mentioned in an interview that the canonicity of it wasn't really something the Bat office could really agree on and it maybe playing a part in the whole Morrison being more comfortable to change stuff. And I'd argue that Morrison's Talia isn't anything like her father or the whole her being okay with genocide because of greater good, which even then is inconsistent because we also see her not agreeing with her father when she helps the heroes to stop him in Tower Of Babel and seeking Batman to stop her father in the old stuff a few times and even going to Gotham to play vigilante and help Bruce. Withe Ra's he at least had the excuse of wanting to better the planet but using extreme means to do it. Morrison's Talia though, she doesn't even really have that and isn't anything like her father. Most of her actions only seem to be motivated by her sheer pettines, jealousy and wanting to surpass her father and the whole being equal to Batman thing.
tara "terra" markov (shaking hands emoji) talia al ghul: the extreme levels of character assassination & victim-blaming the writers will have these two go through entirely to justify their own blatant misogyny, and the fact that neither of these characters will ever move on from said character assassination bc shock values & bad plots = money for dc comics.
So you're telling me the artist who made Talia in that thumbnail, had made that garment in such thin material, enough for it to be transparent, and yet didn't put nip bumps 😞
Talia's character will never be redeemed in the comics or outside media due to Grant Morrisons' actions that ruined her character. Sure, Talia's character started to slowly have problems during the early 2000s, especially with the Death and Maidens storyline, but it was Grant Morrisons run on Batman that was the final nail in the coffin that destroyed her.
I seriously hope that James Gunn or whoever is going to write Brave and the Bold can actually take a lot of the good aspects of Talia from the OG comics and her appearance in Batman: The Animated Series and find a genuine and consensual way to bring Damian into the universe. We have to avoid the Grant Morrison retcon altogether.
@wiinterflowers4277 Look..... I'm a Snyderverse fan, and I actually liked some of the concepts introduced. But.... I moved on, and I want to see something akin to the animated series that I grew up with
@@tonymata8070 I stopped supporting Snyder's crap after the toilet mess known as Rebel Moon. I don't support Brave and the Bold because the idiot who directed the Flash starring a predator is returning as the director, hence my statement on not supporting it.
I am by no means defending her actions. And there would have been other ways for Grant to have her go the villan arc. But she is a woman who herself has been raised in one of the most dangerous criminal organizations on the planet that has dealings with other criminal organizations. Not only that they train their members like a cult with her father having built up his image as being a demi god by using the lazarus pit to cheat death for 6-900 years. Her viewing Damian as the next Alexander and herself Olympias but not wanting to make the same mistake as Olympias by choosing the wrong father. Only for Bruce to turn down her dreams. For a woman who has lived a life where as long as she sets her mind to it and proves that she is capable enough to fight to get it. A dream that Ra's implanted in her from the start as he started to realize that the pit had started losing its effects on him after so many years, and feared there was no one to take his place if he was to perish and the pit couldn't revive him. She's going to jail, but I never felt her actions didn't make sense, in the way religious people have a twisted logic to justify their actions. From the very get go, Ra's with his offer to Bruce to take over the league with Talia by his side is set up to be the biggest temptation you could give Bruce. Not just because she's a beautiful woman. He could take his war on crime on a global scale and, instead of it being a war, it's not hard to imagine that he'd likely be able to turn the planet into a police state. Not unlike the one you see in the Justice Lords universe, or the one created in Neo Gotham Batman Beyond the White Knight. I never saw her as endgame material for Bruce, I always saw her as his test. The only two people I could realistically imagine canon Batman with is Selina or Diana. The reason I say Diana is because Bruce's biggest fear is that whoever he is with, will wind up being a target and used against him. Being with Diana, which of his main regular rouges would stand a chance at taking her down? In a way it would be Bruce choosing the safest love he could given the circumstances of his life. But that it also why I don't think he would do it, he's never going to feel like he deserves it. With Selina there is a certain level of danger, and they both understand each others darker impulses that they fight with all the time.
Wonder Woman is not ideal in any ways. Like for one, there are more than enough DC female characters who can handle themselves from Batman villains. So "WW can take care of herself" is truly not a very arguing point. For two, Batman has been bad at relationships is not truly he fears his lover got hurt or he can't find a powerful girlfriend. It's more that his own trauma and personality made him automatically being distanced from others. He also can't find a lot of people sharing that similar experience with him. Catwoman stands out because she shares a lot of similar trails of Batman. She is one of few to understand orphanage, childhood trauma etc. And Wonder Woman is definitely not that character to understand Batman's personal life. They have nothing more than JL's co-workers. She will never fully understand Batman's trauma and the motivation to fight against crime. Batman's core is tragedy and sadness. Wonder Woman is all about optimistic and love.
@@hmw4166 That last line made my point for me but is also why, as I pointed out why it wouldn't work. He'd feel like and fear he'd end up dragging her down into his darkness. You are right in that there are other women in the DC universe that could take care of themselves but that wasn't my only consideration. For instance Bruce could have a fun few months dating Zatanna so long as they were not working together, so it would be a strictly off hours relationship. For one simple reason, even before the recent story came out that shows Bruce's training. Every Batman fan has asked themselves the question. Why is he not the greatest sorcerer in the world? He lives in a world where he knows for a fact magic is real, and unlike being a meta human or from another planet that you need to be born with. Its a skill he could acquire. The answer always seemed obvious to me, he'd end up worse than Constantine. And if he was sharing a life with someone like Zatanna eventually either an injury or age would get him to resort to asking her for help. After either made him fail to save someone. She would not be able to say no, he'd get help, be able to do the job better than ever before. Then slowly but surely the magic would start collecting its taxes and he'd wind up in a very dark place. I also am limiting myself to women that he's had any kind of history with. I mainly pointed Diana out because if there ever was a woman who perhaps could bring any sort of light into his life. While still being Batman. Unlike when he dates someone like Julie because Batman isn't a part of the equation, the second he's Batman again their relationship is over. Don't tell me crazier thing than him ending up with Diana has not happened. When I first started realizing what was going on with Bruce and Harley in White Knight. I thought Murphy had lost his mind. Somehow he managed to not only earn it, but you end up rooting for Bruce to get out of his own way because she's the only one who dares to call him out, not just what he is doing but why he is doing it. When he starts to regress to going lone wolf. Ultimately in regular canon, I'm for Selina all the way. Even though I know that relationship is playing against Vegas odds. The chances of him not screwing it up somehow, and winding up alone in the mansion like he does in Beyond. Not exactly great. But after their crime fighting days and the honeymoon phase of their life is over. They just might be able to make it in the sort of, they make a point of getting together. Yet need to live different lives in order for their relationship to not fall apart to the point where it couldn't be repaired. Bruce is too broken, Selina needs to have a sense of freedom for them to ever have that live in the manor happily ever after.
Personally, the weakest parts of past Batman movies are the romance plots. The character just doesn't lend himself to romance the same way Superman and to a certain extent wonder woman do. Instead, I feel the romance stories should be replaced with Batman being a father and mentor for the Bat family.
I agree, especially when you take into consideration that Batman is supposed to be the living embodiment of Justice, Vengeance, Consequence. And like love, Justice is fickle as hell. And that's also why he's okay with falling in love with an eco-terrorist/assassin and a internationally wanted thief.
Selina isn’t much better my man Bruce need a better love interest new character please Bruce needs someone similar to what felicity was to Oliver in concept not execution especially season 4 my gosh
That's why Julie Madison and Silver St Cloud will always be my top two love interests for Bruce. Selina Kyle and Talia al Ghul are completely overrated, in my opinion.
I am more of a Batman x Zatanna shipper and I personally think that Talia did not deserve this. I hate how DC made her a bad guy and made Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy and Catwoman 'good guys'. I personally think that pre Grant morrison Talia was a much better love interest for Batman than Catwoman.
Like Harley killed children and murders innocents at her own will and Poison Ivy doesn’t care about human life and will kill anyone without thinking twice yet I’m meant to believe that they joined the justice league and are friends with some of the leaguers. Make it make sense.
@@CreativelyBankrupt-gc4dw thanks 🫱🏻🫲🏼 especially Harley, I have no problem with a bad guy becoming good, but Harley's redemption arc was so overrated. Do we have to excuse what she did just because she was in a toxic relationship? The worst part is in "injustice" I had murderous urges
@histoire_ia5779 animated Harley is redeemable and is more better, comic Harley is a monster like joker but she gets a pass because she got abused by someone she willingly joined even though she knew he is an awful person who kills for fun and the writers don’t like to admit that Harley probably traumatized people with her action.
@ only one I like more is, Silver St. Cloud, Zatanna & Vicki but I don’t see them as endgame except for maybe Zatanna, Talia & Bruce have a child together & it’s been retconned consensual
@@lordbatkusanda She didn’t force Batman, they were both emotionally volatile, and he didn’t want to take advantage of that. While he may not have given verbal consent he did relax the grip when he made the mental decision and then had consensual sex with her.
Grant Morrison did the same thing to Talia that they did to Magneto, made both characters mustache twirling victims which is why Marvel and DC almost immediately undid the major consequences 😂
While Morrison can be a great writer unfortunately he has a thing with taking Anti-Villains and making them ridiculously evil for the shock of it, just look at whet he did with Magneto duriing his New X-men run. It was so bad Marvel reconned it immediately afterwards.
You should made a video about Silencer. Does anyone remember Silencer from New Age of DC heroes. Honor Guest aka Silencer was more like Talia’s version of Dick Grayson. This happen in Silencer Annual back in 2018 Talia told Silencer, that she is the daughter of the demon. She has no time for bonds and family. Except for Silencer. Talia also told Silencer about she does have a family either. Do not let thoughts interfere with your purpose. After Silencer save a family from Gangstas and when Talia told Silencer that Batman is on Ra’s Al Ghul’s hit list. Silencer figure out that Talia is a hypocrite. Silencer have thought what is family. Silencer questioned why Batman is family to Talia. Why protect is he goal’s opposes Talia goal’s? As Talia told Silencer he will be part of family and important to Leviathan. This takes place before Talia created Leviathan. Silencer did caught on how evil Talia is so Silencer left to start her own family. She wants to have a normal life. Silencer has a Husband and Son she truly wants to protect from Talia, Levitation and League of Shadows. I am angry that Bendis made Silencer works for Talia again in Event Levitation. After everything Silencer went through her own series she works for Talia again. Silencer was Last seen in Wonder Woman. And Silencer still wants to have a normal life with her family. Man, I wish Silencer more popular in comics. Like Silencer was in CW Arrow but she needs this weird device to activate her meta powers. Not like in the comics where Silencer can use meta powers by listen shushing in her finger. Silencer did have a crossover with Nightwing. I heard Silencer was in Red Hood and the Outlaws webtoon comic. 9:23 It happened a lot. There been people tries to use past comics without contexts to gaslight others that it always like this.
I think Batman and Talia could work in Elseworlds. Like if Bruce took over the league of shadows. He and Talia establish a dictatorship like injustice superman
Talia doesn’t want the league to be a dictatorship, she just wants her fathers money and recourses so she can help Bruce achieve his goal, she doesn’t believe in the world cleansing angle like Ra’s.
Selina Kyle/Catwoman is The Greatest & The Best Bruce Wayne/Batman's love interest. I hope it's eventually retconned that Bruce Wayne & Selina Kyle is Terry McGinnis/Batman Beyond's biological parents or Damian Wayne & Raven is.
I was looking for this comment. In the comic, Talia kisses Jason Todd when she helps him escape from Ra's after he is revived. I was so confused and I don't see anyone talking about that.
It wasn't to get back at Bruce, for once she wasn't even mean in this comic, I don't know, it was just weird. I think it's just that dc doesn't know how to write a man and a woman alone without it escalating and a bed being involved
I would also like to argue the idea that they could write her in one of these Batman runs as a completely good character just considering the way that sadly she has been ridden was a character that tries to play being in the middle but then went all the way back so the next thing from a writing point of view is the character seeking some level Redemption and I think they're kind of already doing that by her wanting to be a better mother to Damien honestly I would even love if Damian gets another comic book where we see him find himself as he's currently not robbing anymore and seemingly even got them where he has his finding himself moment but also one of the constant supporting characters is Talia maybe helping him through funding his adventures and whatever he does cuz if not making her a completely good character to everyone in the bat family make her a good character to Bruce and Damian
I used to really like Talia's character I even prefered her over catwomen as a love interest for a while. and Grant started writing her. Even the dcamu did her dirty
That's the funny thing about it all for me is that a I have always been team Catwoman but I've never truly been against the idea of Talia al Ghul because I never have felt like in the modern day was it ever truly explored in a way where I feel like I've genuinely got a taste for the person Talia was for Bruce before she went like batshit crazy. I do more hope and it was something that I found refreshing in like the Damian Comics was that Talia was a supportive mother seemingly so and actually did take time to understand him to a point considering in the runway Batman does confront Damian again I believe it's Talia that tells Bruce that he's gone too hard on him. I would definitely like if they did want to bring Talia more into the bat family fold if she was a more like Auntie character but not really just under the idea that she's someone who's there just trying to help either Damien or Bruce and have their relationship be more reminiscent of a co-parenting thing that's why I love the fight between Bruce and Talia fighting Deathstroke for Damien I loved seeing them work together. And I would love more things like that where she's the unlikely Ally and then maybe you can transform that more into let's say a Spider-Man and Black Cat just under the idea that it's the flirtatious love interest just to see how the fans start to warm up to her because if ultimately the fans start to want that then I would say sure test it out
Also if you ask me the love interest of Batman in general, is Batman has been designed more or less James Bond type of character, who attracts a lot of beautiful women in his life but will never be in a stable relationship. Even Talia did not go with that crazy psychopath road, her loyalty to her father has always been the issue. Even we went back to O'Neil's period, Talia basically keeps jumping between Batman and Ra's, and that idea itself, represents she will never build a stable relationship with Batman. And for his other lovers? It's also not designed as stable relationship type. Catwoman is more a mirror to Batman, and shares some interesting dynamic because they are against each other but meanwhile accidentally shares a lot of common. They can also work together as one interesting duo. However, None of them will settle down for building a life together. Batman won't stop putting his personal mission first and Catwoman won't stop for chasing thrilling and freedom. They are great for one night but not long-term. And these two are the most important ones in Batman's life already. Let's not even talk about Superman. Spider-Man even seems to have way more possibilities than Batman because he has MJ, and MJ will be the most ideal partner when she was written right (PS: Not modern MJ obviously). And even though Spider-Man also has similar character like Black Cat, Felicia has never been promoted as "the one" like Selina, and Peter wants a peaceful life outside of Spider-Man. Batman is too broken to even chase his happiness. That's the biggest difference.
0:22 Thank You I been waiting for like two years for my question. I heard that some people said It was retconned but never to me which comic it is. Edit: The Comic is from Batman and Robin Born to kill ( a comic I also own / Read)
0:18 - Didn't even know they went back to the original over the retcon. 3:43 - I straight up forgot that happened. 6:28 - That right there was my 3rd introduction to Talia as a character and is what made me dislike her from that point on. I'm not even a big Damian fan but even that was way too much for him. 8:25 - It is, you talk about it at the end of the video but during the wedding event for Batman and Catwoman it came off as weird and wrong that she would still talk to Batman like she didn't do all the horrible crap to both him and Damian.
Honestly, I'm a huge Grant Morrison hater and will never forgive him for what he did. I'm hoping one day they fix Talia and make her a more complex character once again.
Hot take: But grants version of the events is actually a good thing for modern and even old comics. There always was a decent amount of denial against abusive mothers, so much so that they were allowed to beat their child in public just because it "Wasnt the father doing it" Fathers have been and still are demonized in comics. It really helped people see that both parents can be abusive.
Yeah, it really is a hot take because his racist caricature of the Al Ghul's does nothing for the characters or for the narrative that you're trying to push, he put the r*ape storyline in for shits and giggles and didn't even address it with the proper respect it deserved.
GOD…Talia could’ve been such a complicated and important character in the continuity besides being the one to give Batman his next robin(and without consent too 🙏💀), like we could see how she approaches "motherhood" knowing that she doesn’t have the best example. And the hope that Batman being the father gives her.Batman’s conflicting feelings about the whole thing…god it could’ve been so PEAK but these comic writers gotta have that sweet shock value so they don’t have to actually craft a compelling narrative but it’s mostly the fault of the publishers at dc tbh.
Your forgetting the time that she forged aDNA test to make it look like Damian was actually the sun of death stroke and even convinced slade that Damian was his son all so she could get slade and Bruce to fight each other witch lead to slade finding out that Bruce was Batman cuz why would Batman care that Bruce Wayne got cucked and she did all this just cuz she loves drama
Recent detective comics have retconned out & re-established her prior Damian birth characterization. They do have a compelling dynamic & most of bad stuff were just very clear racism & misogyny. Heck Damian even steals lot of Talia’s arc in crisis in choosing between Batman & Ra ideology.
@@Ashkenightcrawler nothing was really retconed out in the Ram V run. They just seem to be changing the Bruce and Talia dynamic to be more like the one before Morrison and trying to ignore it. Although, the previous Nightwing run did have a reference to some of her actions, meaning they're still canon.
I'm late but here's my view(I'm probably gonna get jumped but) Catwoman (WHEN NOT FLANDERIZED I'M LOOKING AT YOU NEW BATMAN ADVENTURES) is my favorite famale Batman character qnd CLEARLY his soul mate (Long Holloween I love ya for giving me that) I liked Talia on how she wanted to get out of her dad's abuse but then she just became "daddy's girl and crazy ex wife stereotype' Batman x Batgirl 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮 I see him and Wonder Woman as friends and teammates though Diana would make a good mentor for Tim Edit: I know some HATE Catwoman like Kendrick Lamar hate Drake hate but this is just my opinion on her and the other wemon Brice is shipped with of you like dome others go ahead (As long as it ain't no Barbara Gordon)
@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω😶😶😨 I I don't even know what to say about that I wasn't referring to bed activities I just meant that that's who I like for Batman to be with the most I I'm just confused
We all know Gotham is Batman's main love interest.
Its actually me
Basically the graveyard scene in The Batmam
To quote Knightfall… “Ignore the pain. It doesn’t matter, you don’t matter. Only Gotham Matters”
Nah we all know it's Joker
Crazy Quilt!
Talia's legacy has and will forever be tainted
Shes the hank pym of dc.
Until the day comes when the DC Comic Universe gets reset again, the current Talia did things that the Wayne family should not forgive.
@@dorememe8548 Exactumundo
“You don’t want her to come off as a female version of her father”
*Batman Beyond flashbacks*
😬
Oh god
Ra's Al Ghul took over his own daughter's body to acquire Batman 's body
He is madman
yeah....
Batman x Crime Fighting is the best Batman Ship ever. Change my Mind.
Yes but the best bat family is jason todd x crowbars
Corny
@@jatinjaiswal4762 even more corny ngas hate being creative 😂
Just as good as Deku x hospital beds
@@jatinjaiswal4762lmao
Kinda funny how Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman have all been around nearly the same amount of time and only Superman has held onto a long lasting relationship, hell they even override new 52 just to give us back Lois and Clark from post crisis.
I would say Diana and Steve are not that far behind, whenever Steve is not dying they are usually together
@@JustaguythatcamebyBatman and Wonder Woman are the Perfect Match
@@therealmr.incredible3179nope
The actual difference between Superman from Spidey and Batman is that Supes still has Lois consistently
@@therealmr.incredible3179 Not really. Not just biologically incompatible but also Bruce is far too stubborn and focused on protecting Gotham to have a meaningful relationship.
Talia Al Ghul used to be my go to love interest for batman but sometimes I do go for catwoman. Talia Al ghul is such an interesting love interest concept because of the looming apsect of fallen in love with the daughter of one of your greatest enemies of all time. But unfortunately that ship has sailed because of the horrible shit that she did to batman.
Yes but she did give Bruce s son. No matter what, she would be important in batman lore
@@Watch-0w1He really didn’t need one.
I think Wonderwoman is the best love interest for Batman. The idea of Batman having a god falling in love with him amazes him because her love is actually genuinely towards him and you can see that in the DCAU being so well constructed to Batman. Another that is great is Zatanna as well. But definetly people ship more Batman and Catwoman due to be literally the main one, but in my eyes she is just way toxic to him.
@GuilhermeOliveira-qh8wf I agree. Catwoman will never leave the thief life and Wonder Woman is immortal so Batman will eventually die of old age while she'll still live
@@quentinjones6877 That doesn't mean she can't have Bruce's kids and anything. She can't fall in love with Superman tho, it would be to catastrophic as when their pair up they become villains mostly
I really do hate that they just made her into a female version of Rais. When she's way different before these comics that tainted her character.
There's a reason why he fell in love with her, she was a flawed character but did truly love Bruce.
Now she's just comically evil.
@Astartes-6969 fr it was such a massive waste of the character and now it's the popular version of her(meaning the one everyone knows) I hope one day they turn Talia back to the way she was before
@@jovon2935 What does turning Talia back to being what she was before mean exactly? What would her character be?
I am by no means defending her actions. And there would have been other ways for Grant to have her go the villan arc. But she is a woman who herself has been raised in one of the most dangerous criminal organizations on the planet that has dealings with other criminal organizations. Not only that they train their members like a cult with her father having built up his image as being a demi god by using the lazarus pit to cheat death for 6-900 years.
Her viewing Damian as the next Alexander and herself Olympias but not wanting to make the same mistake as Olympias by choosing the wrong father. Only for Bruce to turn down her dreams. For a woman who has lived a life where as long as she sets her mind to it and proves that she is capable enough to fight to get it. A dream that Ra's implanted in her from the start as he started to realize that the pit had started losing its effects on him after so many years, and feared there was no one to take his place if he was to perish and the pit couldn't revive him.
She's going to jail, but I never felt her actions didn't make sense, in the way religious people have a twisted logic to justify their actions.
From the very get go, Ra's with his offer to Bruce to take over the league with Talia by his side is set up to be the biggest temptation you could give Bruce. Not just because she's a beautiful woman. He could take his war on crime on a global scale and, instead of it being a war, it's not hard to imagine that he'd likely be able to turn the planet into a police state. Not unlike the one you see in the Justice Lords universe, or the one created in Neo Gotham Batman Beyond the White Knight.
I never saw her as endgame material for Bruce, I always saw her as his test. The only two people I could realistically imagine canon Batman with is Selina or Diana. The reason I say Diana is because Bruce's biggest fear is that whoever he is with, will wind up being a target and used against him. Being with Diana, which of his main regular rouges would stand a chance at taking her down? In a way it would be Bruce choosing the safest love he could given the circumstances of his life. But that it also why I don't think he would do it, he's never going to feel like he deserves it. With Selina there is a certain level of danger, and they both understand each others darker impulses that they fight with all the time.
Grant Morrison deserves most blame, but the editor deserves a little too, at least one of the editors.
Remember in Batman Beyond when Rhas took over Talia's body and made out with Bruce? Pepperidge farm remembers
WTF did I read
@MikaMilm that's what happened yep. Totally a family bonding moment...
“IT WAS ME DETECTIVE!!! I POSSESSED MY OWN DAUGHTER AND DUPED YOU INTO KISSING ME”
Talia and Bruce's relationship is a really interesting concept, I'm a sucker for those forbidden love type of stories. But there's no way I can fully support their ship given everything Talia's done to Bruce, the Batfamily and her own son. Any adaption that doesn't have her do horrible and crazy things to the Batfamily I can accept the ship (e.g. In BTAS she's a much more neutral character, and it actually feels like she loves Bruce, but is just caught between him and following her father's command).
I see her as a yandere, aka crazy obsessed gf
@Watch-0w1 Yeah that makes a lot of sense
@@Watch-0w1 But that doesn't make sense for her character. Especially when you go back to the source material, making her out to be the obsessed girlfriend already takes away the autonomy she already had.
This why Arkham city take on Talia was so refreshing for me.
To be fair, she barely does anything and goes down quickly.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117tbh I feel like Talia and her father felt rushed in city, but Talia did feel like a anti hero at the end when she help Bats, so it was a nice take on her character.
That was really my first time learning about her but when I found out what she did to Bruce in the comics, I started looking at her differently
Talia was the most forgettable aspect of Arkham City lol
@@StraightEdgeKnight19not her design
Something I really hope they do with Taila in the DCU is that I hope they make her more of a three dimensional character who isn't completely like her father and her love for Bruce is genuine and she's willing to disobey her father even she feels incredibly guilty about it, instead of her being just as much of a psycho as Ras Al Ghul and even r*** Bruce just to give birth to Damian. I much prefer how the DCAU depicted Taila as she clearly had a love for Bruce but wasn't completely dedicated to her father's vision. Even though I do prefer Bruce and Selina as the endgame Batman couple I do think Talia when written well with more moral complexity to her can be a compelling love interest for Bruce instead of making her lazily evil
Her DCAMU counterpart was great in Batman's son but then the sequels pretty much destroyed her character out of nowhere. I think the best version is definetly in the arkham series.
@@GuilhermeOliveira-qh8wf@GuilhermeOliveira-qh8wf I also really liked that depiction of her too, at least in The Son of Batman movie, where she showed that she truly cared about Damian, albeit slightly neglectful of his feelings but still ultimately loved him and had a passionate love for Bruce even if Bruce didn't reciprocate the same feelings for her. We even see her attempt to make the League of Assasins better and not follow her Ra's Al Ghul's vision of destruction but instead her own path as the new leader of the League of Assasins, which was very promising to have her as a more morally grey character but then she went bads**t crazy and became straight-up evil in Batman: Bad Blood, which was such a whiplash of a character change that really didn't make sense and only made Talia all the more of a hated character. Granted, people prefer her to be evil,l which is fair since she can be adapted in many different ways, but personally, I like to see more adaptions, especially in the DCU, to have her be more interesting as a character and have her love for Bruce be genuine and show how conflicted she is in obeying her father over her love for Bruce and Damian
@@milkiassamuel780 it would have been great. Anything besides the Bat and Cat ship, those 2 always felt like it is great watching as a kid. But as you grow up and understand about relationships, you start to understand that she is just toxic asf. She is contantly being sexually driven, manipulating, stealling and many other things.
I think I want to see Bruce to be happy for once like he did in the dark knight rises, although Catwoman over there was a mixed bag, her character arc at the end felt a bit less shallow and more stronger and reliable than she was in the first 2 acts of the movie.
I still prefer to see Wonderwoman just like in DCAU days. They actually go pretty well over there, and the idea of her falling in love with Bruce goes great and I still want to see DCAU storytelling being typed into the screen.
DCAMU movies and DCAU universe are the best universes to adapt the Justice League. I would argue that the best version of Batman would have been from Arkham games.
THIS!
This right here is what I desperately want for Talia in the DCU.
@@milkiassamuel780 yes they completely butchered her character later on
"Talia pulling a Cardi B."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 please never change!!!
For the good Morrison did, they did some irreplaceable damage to the Talia character in many people's eyes, even outside comics.
In order to make W's, you need to crack some L's
@mantraki Some wise words.
@@mantraki except grant morrison never made any wins. all of their comics were racist & every other kind of bigoted as fuck lmao
I started reading Batman comics from around the Bronze Age with artwork from Marshall Rogers and I was surprised to read that someone named Silver St. Cloud was one of Bruce’s love interests during that period and I actually liked her inclusion and character from what I read. She was a normal woman who worked in organizing events and was Bruce’s gf in his personal life. Bruce is pretty serious about her, even thinking of marrying her, but struggles with how he’d even balance that with being Batman and her not knowing.
She finds out he’s Batman anyways without him knowing, struggles with the truth, but decides to sadly walk away from him, because she doesn’t want to bear the emotions and thoughts of Bruce/Batman being killed, since she witnessed Batman chasing I think the Joker in Laughing Fish and almost being killed by him.
Good stuff and she returns again in a later story where she gives him a chance to have her before she ultimately leaves Gotham, but Bruce seems to ultimately accept being Batman and not see her. I kinda would like to see more of this now, but I guess that was already done with the Nolan films and ones before.
Man, i hated this change so much. I honestly like Talia and Batman more than Batman and Catwoman, but nope, they made her pill Cosby and ruined her character. Shit sucks man
Yeah I prefer talia as someone thats in the middle between Ras and Bruce. She supports her father and sees the vision hes trying to do, but at the sametime she admires and adores Batman's noble and honorable ways. It would be interesting if the leviathan organization was her branch of the league of assassins but their techniques is a reflection of talia being in the middle.
I think we’re afraid to mention it, but that THUMBNAIL GOT ME ACTING UP
Nah fr 💀
1:06 the mask stays ON
If I was batman I would wear the mask during s*x too tbh
Those fools at WB wouldn’t let Batman and Catwoman get married!
They tried in 2020 with Tom King's run, but it ended with Catwoman leaving Bruce at the altar (because Joker was so against them getting married).
@@civilbeast165 they would never last, Selina is a complete mess of traumas
@@lordbatkusandayeah but at least she isn't raping Bruce and acting like a psycho ex wife
Selina is someone who naturally developed with him. Who relates to him. And deeply understands him on a physical and emotional level.
Wonderwoman is his best friend. Who any man would be lucky to have.
Even Vicky vale has been portrayed as someone who deeply cares about him. And wants to support him.
Talia has always been someone who he can't trust entirely. And doesn't love him for he is rather what she can provide to her. Which is toxic. Even at her best she is a pawn of her father. Or wants him for her family. Nowadays she's just a straight up villain. Which makes a good story for Damien. But it's hard to see her as a love interest.
Don't forget Silver St. Cloud...
Your joking with that Catwoman line right? Once upon a time she didn’t even want anything to do with Batman or when she did have something going with Batman she only wanted Batman not the man under the mask. Let’s not forget her jealous rampages she went on back in the 40s, Talia understands Bruce and Batman as well. If you’d read the original comics that were created by Dennis O’Neil you’d see that. Bruce/Batman symbolizes freedom and Justice; he quite literally is a motif for those said things, and let’s not forget Talia was brought up in a literal cult.
That was several continuities reboots ago @Gemini053
You named the problem in the end. It's the writers who mess up everything from minor inconsistencies to straight-up character assassinating retcons. I'm all for taking some creative liberties, but let's have some consistency instead of borderline resets every run
Just imagine how taila would act with damian brought home a girl she didn't like.
I think she's fine with damians current gf, flatline
@@abiodunsulaiman2297not really. She discouraged Damian from going after and following her. With Damian basically telling her to shut up. Which is funny because his current girlfriend, Flatline aka Nika, is a big Talia fan.
@@NightRunner2099 and yet she's more of Damian's idea of Selina, Nika that is.
1:48, and his brother, Respawn, had it much worse. Not only did he not have the care that Talia provided Damian, be it the teachers and discipline or the being propped up to be the leader of the league, he was regularly harvested for organs to give to Damian and replace the ones he damaged due to his regenerative abilities making it that he would regenerate them.
Respawn isn’t a human, he’s just a clone
@@JonesHon-m5h not a clone. He's not like Damian's other bothers. Just artificially made by Ra's from Slade and Talia's DNA in an artificial womb. And has been alive probably as long as Damian. So not artificially aged like Heretic either.
@he was created by ras i believe right. Just made by the dna of Talia & Slade, I dont wanna believe Slade hit Talia personally that’s just me tho🤷🏾♂️
@@JonesHon-m5h first, bad news, they have done. There was even this storyline where a core premise was that whether Damian is Slade's son or not.
Second, your explanation is literally what I said. Ra's created Respawn by combining the DNA of Talia and Slade in an artificial womb. And that doesn't mean he isn't a real person. Just the circumstances of his birth are different.
@ Priest had this weird thing making damian slades son instead of Bruce (thank god dc rejected the idea tho)… but yeah respawn is very much dead rn I believe
7:44 Shock of all shocks the choice between a kleptomaniac and an actual terrorist is extremely easy.
Barely a choice really
For Batman it’s hypocritical, he should choose either one of them since they impede on his code to stop ALL criminals but it seems that his go to method is to fuck them 😂.
Technically her change happened in the early 2000s. Not only did Jeff Loeb make her more antagonistic in his run on Superman, and made her relationship with Batman more strained in Hush. But, Geoff Johns would have her be a leader of the Secret Society for the Infinite Crisis event, which lasted for about 3 whole years. Morrison would take over after said event, and would use the reality shattering attacks of Earth-2 Superman & Superboy Prime to drastically change up the Batman canon along with making Talia even more vile after the Ra’s had died back in 2003
Completely coincidental, but Deathstroke also had an extreme villainous change in the 2000s, born from his depiction in the TT Cartoon. Probably in the minority, but I find that one actually worse😂
To be fair, I love my Deathstroke more openly monstrous than trying to justify his Terra stuff or how he treats his kids.
@@joeker5208 while those events are important, not in a single one of them Talia was as cruel and hateful as in Morrison's Batman run. Even in Hush, she while somewhat annoyed at least was accepting and respecting Selina and Bruce's relationship and was more focused on undermining Luthor and his company. Can't see Morrison's Talia do that. and this was before she was retconed to be a full on assassin since her younger years from Morrison onward. The most people she had unalived by that point were two people. Both of them to save Bruce's life.
@
1. Sure, but that’s not the point I’m making. The issue I have is that people think the villainous Talia just shows up out of nowhere in Morrison’s run, when that’s just very false. Johns had her be one of the leaders behind the most evil group on the planet. She was apart of and agreed to nuking Bludhaven (which was said to kill at least 100k), was behind the kidnapping of several children around the world for her scheme (as seen in Gail Simone’s Birds of Prey), and knew about/helped with the O.M.A.C. assault (something that was a global attack).
2. The Bronze Age already had the lore that she was trained from birth. O’Neil just had it to where her trials in the League weren’t til her adulthood when she already met Batman.
3. That kill count might work for Pre-Crisis, but not even early Post-Crisis. As in the novel, “Son of The Demon” (which was written by Detective Comics writer, Mike Barr), Talia is flat out gunning down dozens people in her fight scenes. All of which of confirmed as dead, not that is was really up for debate when you’re human and blasted through with an assault rifle😂. And not was that novel under O’Neil’s supervision, but even going back to his first Ra’s story, he had Talia very much okay with his global genocide. It wasn’t ever just “she does what Ra’s tells hers to do because he’s her father”, but she also agrees with a lot of his ideology to a degree. And who can forget Judd Winick having Talia revive Jason Todd and sending him to Gotham with the sole purpose of hurting/killing Batman.
All I’m saying is, whether you like or don’t like Morrison’s Talia, he is far from changing the character as she originally was in Pre-Crisis when it comes to her morality
@@mikhaelgribkov4117 I prefer Wolfman’s version, which very much has him as neutral as possible, only ever giving a damn when it pertains to his family. People forget that he was actually friends with the Titans for several years after the Judas Contract. Never cared for him just having a beef with the Titans for a reason in which he got over after actual character development
@@joeker5208 1. I get where you're coming from. I appreciate the explanation. I still somewhat stand by my stance. In none of the stuff you mentioned she does things like cooking someone's family and making them eat it. I feel like Morrison took something and went over 11 with it. And what you say while true has an explanation in regards to the 2000's. In Death and the Maidens Talia is brainwashed via torture by her half-sister Nyssa. After that arc, we do see a harsher Talia where the things with Society and OMAC that you said happen. However, one could tribute her actions to what Nyssa did to her. While in the new 52 Batman Inc and their retelling of Talia's origin to make Talia's story more coherent it Morrison basically makes it that she has always been this corrupt and malicious and she would become this corrupt hateful monster, especially with her drugging Batman to conceive Damian going back to her early days with him. And it's not like she was all doom and glum in early 2000's. She still helped to undermine Luthor from inside of his company and left nothing by selling everything to Wayne Enterprise while he was the president. She also Saves Selina life in Hush and brings Jason back to life against her father’s wishes, originally for Bruce’s sake.
3. I'm not sure about the canonicity of Son of Demon. IIRC Morrison even mentioned in an interview that the canonicity of it wasn't really something the Bat office could really agree on and it maybe playing a part in the whole Morrison being more comfortable to change stuff. And I'd argue that Morrison's Talia isn't anything like her father or the whole her being okay with genocide because of greater good, which even then is inconsistent because we also see her not agreeing with her father when she helps the heroes to stop him in Tower Of Babel and seeking Batman to stop her father in the old stuff a few times and even going to Gotham to play vigilante and help Bruce.
Withe Ra's he at least had the excuse of wanting to better the planet but using extreme means to do it. Morrison's Talia though, she doesn't even really have that and isn't anything like her father. Most of her actions only seem to be motivated by her sheer pettines, jealousy and wanting to surpass her father and the whole being equal to Batman thing.
In Bad Blood, when Talia said "Start with the batard. We can always make more" that was freaking diabolical.
Personally I prefer Catwoman as Batman's love interest.
WHY THEY DON'T FIT EITHER
Same here. I'm a diehard BatCat shipper!
tara "terra" markov (shaking hands emoji) talia al ghul: the extreme levels of character assassination & victim-blaming the writers will have these two go through entirely to justify their own blatant misogyny, and the fact that neither of these characters will ever move on from said character assassination bc shock values & bad plots = money for dc comics.
So you're telling me the artist who made Talia in that thumbnail, had made that garment in such thin material, enough for it to be transparent, and yet didn't put nip bumps 😞
I'm quite certain he did, the artist doesn't shy away from nudity AT ALL, but it's DC who has the final say in what can be published as a cover.
It’s refreshing to see one of these videos where the creator actually knows the books inside and out
Talia's character will never be redeemed in the comics or outside media due to Grant Morrisons' actions that ruined her character. Sure, Talia's character started to slowly have problems during the early 2000s, especially with the Death and Maidens storyline, but it was Grant Morrisons run on Batman that was the final nail in the coffin that destroyed her.
HER CHARACTER WAS REEDEEMED FEW YEARS AGO
@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω That might be true but you still see that Talia haters keep pushing “she r*ped Batman” agenda 15 years later so….
Thumbnail got me acting unwise
DC just needs to marry Bruce and Selena already like they do with Supes and Lois. It’s about time they just make it happen 4real this time
I seriously hope that James Gunn or whoever is going to write Brave and the Bold can actually take a lot of the good aspects of Talia from the OG comics and her appearance in Batman: The Animated Series and find a genuine and consensual way to bring Damian into the universe.
We have to avoid the Grant Morrison retcon altogether.
I will *NOT* support Brave and the Bold.
@wiinterflowers4277 Cool.
Continue to wallow in your self-pity.
I'm a Snyderverse fan, and I'm excited to see a comics accurate Batman.
@wiinterflowers4277 Look..... I'm a Snyderverse fan, and I actually liked some of the concepts introduced.
But.... I moved on, and I want to see something akin to the animated series that I grew up with
@@tonymata8070 I stopped supporting Snyder's crap after the toilet mess known as Rebel Moon. I don't support Brave and the Bold because the idiot who directed the Flash starring a predator is returning as the director, hence my statement on not supporting it.
@@tonymata8070 Honestly just make the kid a test tube baby taken from Talia and Batman without either consent so both look confused
500 million on Daimen?
Was only 50 million for Batman in Arkham city…
Inflation is a motherf*** 😂😂
I am by no means defending her actions. And there would have been other ways for Grant to have her go the villan arc. But she is a woman who herself has been raised in one of the most dangerous criminal organizations on the planet that has dealings with other criminal organizations. Not only that they train their members like a cult with her father having built up his image as being a demi god by using the lazarus pit to cheat death for 6-900 years.
Her viewing Damian as the next Alexander and herself Olympias but not wanting to make the same mistake as Olympias by choosing the wrong father. Only for Bruce to turn down her dreams. For a woman who has lived a life where as long as she sets her mind to it and proves that she is capable enough to fight to get it. A dream that Ra's implanted in her from the start as he started to realize that the pit had started losing its effects on him after so many years, and feared there was no one to take his place if he was to perish and the pit couldn't revive him.
She's going to jail, but I never felt her actions didn't make sense, in the way religious people have a twisted logic to justify their actions.
From the very get go, Ra's with his offer to Bruce to take over the league with Talia by his side is set up to be the biggest temptation you could give Bruce. Not just because she's a beautiful woman. He could take his war on crime on a global scale and, instead of it being a war, it's not hard to imagine that he'd likely be able to turn the planet into a police state. Not unlike the one you see in the Justice Lords universe, or the one created in Neo Gotham Batman Beyond the White Knight.
I never saw her as endgame material for Bruce, I always saw her as his test. The only two people I could realistically imagine canon Batman with is Selina or Diana. The reason I say Diana is because Bruce's biggest fear is that whoever he is with, will wind up being a target and used against him. Being with Diana, which of his main regular rouges would stand a chance at taking her down? In a way it would be Bruce choosing the safest love he could given the circumstances of his life. But that it also why I don't think he would do it, he's never going to feel like he deserves it. With Selina there is a certain level of danger, and they both understand each others darker impulses that they fight with all the time.
Wonder Woman is not ideal in any ways. Like for one, there are more than enough DC female characters who can handle themselves from Batman villains. So "WW can take care of herself" is truly not a very arguing point. For two, Batman has been bad at relationships is not truly he fears his lover got hurt or he can't find a powerful girlfriend. It's more that his own trauma and personality made him automatically being distanced from others. He also can't find a lot of people sharing that similar experience with him. Catwoman stands out because she shares a lot of similar trails of Batman. She is one of few to understand orphanage, childhood trauma etc. And Wonder Woman is definitely not that character to understand Batman's personal life. They have nothing more than JL's co-workers. She will never fully understand Batman's trauma and the motivation to fight against crime. Batman's core is tragedy and sadness. Wonder Woman is all about optimistic and love.
@@hmw4166 That last line made my point for me but is also why, as I pointed out why it wouldn't work. He'd feel like and fear he'd end up dragging her down into his darkness.
You are right in that there are other women in the DC universe that could take care of themselves but that wasn't my only consideration. For instance Bruce could have a fun few months dating Zatanna so long as they were not working together, so it would be a strictly off hours relationship. For one simple reason, even before the recent story came out that shows Bruce's training. Every Batman fan has asked themselves the question. Why is he not the greatest sorcerer in the world? He lives in a world where he knows for a fact magic is real, and unlike being a meta human or from another planet that you need to be born with. Its a skill he could acquire. The answer always seemed obvious to me, he'd end up worse than Constantine. And if he was sharing a life with someone like Zatanna eventually either an injury or age would get him to resort to asking her for help. After either made him fail to save someone. She would not be able to say no, he'd get help, be able to do the job better than ever before. Then slowly but surely the magic would start collecting its taxes and he'd wind up in a very dark place.
I also am limiting myself to women that he's had any kind of history with. I mainly pointed Diana out because if there ever was a woman who perhaps could bring any sort of light into his life. While still being Batman. Unlike when he dates someone like Julie because Batman isn't a part of the equation, the second he's Batman again their relationship is over.
Don't tell me crazier thing than him ending up with Diana has not happened. When I first started realizing what was going on with Bruce and Harley in White Knight. I thought Murphy had lost his mind. Somehow he managed to not only earn it, but you end up rooting for Bruce to get out of his own way because she's the only one who dares to call him out, not just what he is doing but why he is doing it. When he starts to regress to going lone wolf.
Ultimately in regular canon, I'm for Selina all the way. Even though I know that relationship is playing against Vegas odds. The chances of him not screwing it up somehow, and winding up alone in the mansion like he does in Beyond. Not exactly great. But after their crime fighting days and the honeymoon phase of their life is over. They just might be able to make it in the sort of, they make a point of getting together. Yet need to live different lives in order for their relationship to not fall apart to the point where it couldn't be repaired. Bruce is too broken, Selina needs to have a sense of freedom for them to ever have that live in the manor happily ever after.
I think part of this is why Damian has had so much hate. Like he’s a better character now but the taste is still there.
I always liked him.Those flaws made him as interesting as a kid can be
i never understood why DC won't let Bruce have a family, Clark has a family and he still able balance it with being a superhero.
Because of maintaining the status quo. Hopefully they finally do something new, interesting, and LASTING with absolute batman.
Personally, the weakest parts of past Batman movies are the romance plots. The character just doesn't lend himself to romance the same way Superman and to a certain extent wonder woman do. Instead, I feel the romance stories should be replaced with Batman being a father and mentor for the Bat family.
I agree, especially when you take into consideration that Batman is supposed to be the living embodiment of Justice, Vengeance, Consequence. And like love, Justice is fickle as hell. And that's also why he's okay with falling in love with an eco-terrorist/assassin and a internationally wanted thief.
I agree with you, I don't see Bruce in a "conventional" romantic relationship, only small romances without commitment
Selina isn’t much better my man Bruce need a better love interest new character please Bruce needs someone similar to what felicity was to Oliver in concept not execution especially season 4 my gosh
Y'know zatanna to my knowledge is available, bruce has non OC options
@ nah I’m of the mindset that Bruce need someone who can help with the crusade but not be in the field
That's why Julie Madison and Silver St Cloud will always be my top two love interests for Bruce. Selina Kyle and Talia al Ghul are completely overrated, in my opinion.
Silver St cloud🤷🏾♀️ but dc seems to have forgotten it
@@brandonscott4808 oh yesss Julie Madisson I had forgotten her
You might forget to mention her and Red Hood relationship. That's also fucked up thing to do, almost par with Batman and Batgirl shit.
Can you please make a video on Batman’s second most insane love interest, Jezebel Jet, a member of the Black Glove
Bruce really needs to learn to choose his love interests
I am more of a Batman x Zatanna shipper and I personally think that Talia did not deserve this. I hate how DC made her a bad guy and made Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy and Catwoman 'good guys'. I personally think that pre Grant morrison Talia was a much better love interest for Batman than Catwoman.
Like Harley killed children and murders innocents at her own will and Poison Ivy doesn’t care about human life and will kill anyone without thinking twice yet I’m meant to believe that they joined the justice league and are friends with some of the leaguers. Make it make sense.
@@CreativelyBankrupt-gc4dw thanks 🫱🏻🫲🏼 especially Harley, I have no problem with a bad guy becoming good, but Harley's redemption arc was so overrated. Do we have to excuse what she did just because she was in a toxic relationship? The worst part is in "injustice" I had murderous urges
@histoire_ia5779 animated Harley is redeemable and is more better, comic Harley is a monster like joker but she gets a pass because she got abused by someone she willingly joined even though she knew he is an awful person who kills for fun and the writers don’t like to admit that Harley probably traumatized people with her action.
@@CreativelyBankrupt-gc4dw Animated Harley was always sympathetic and could be redeemed but comic harley? Yea hell no
Yeah Grant Morrison should’ve never cooked…
I wish they try another love interest like zatanna as they had a will they wont they for the past 30 years.
In a comic if I recall Bruce said he didn't like Zatanna like that just as a friend and he used her for s€x so...
One of Batmans most formidable foes is the great adversary every man must face sooner later.
A crazy ex-girlfriend.
I liked Talia and Batman’s relationship in Arkham city the most, it seemed more genuine. Either way I’d fold for her 😂
I need her redemption in the DCU, I need a Good love interest and give someone else a chance not being Catwoman again.
What's wrong with Selina?
6:18 hold on he like that 😭😭😭
Talia’s the best love interest for bruce
NO NOT REALLY
@ only one I like more is, Silver St. Cloud, Zatanna & Vicki but I don’t see them as endgame except for maybe Zatanna, Talia & Bruce have a child together & it’s been retconned consensual
@@JonesHon-m5hI’m actually a fan of Vicki and Bruce. It seems more healthy and really cute. Too bad it isn’t that popular.
@@CreativelyBankrupt-gc4dw I’d like Bruce & Vicki to happen bcoz the dynamic Of him & Vicki with Clark & Lois would be peak
@@JonesHon-m5h it's mostly because it looks too much like Cark and Louis so some are a bit like "meh"
7:44 if you have the context of that comic... You know that Selina is not inocent either
What did she do?
@sectionskywalker5080 she forced him
Damn whats the comic? Ive never heard of this@@lordbatkusanda
@@ImTitan16 it's a Catwoman comic (they never selled well but here we got) I think it's Catwoman Vol 3 #1
@@lordbatkusanda
She didn’t force Batman, they were both emotionally volatile, and he didn’t want to take advantage of that. While he may not have given verbal consent he did relax the grip when he made the mental decision and then had consensual sex with her.
Talia for me was always a crazy character in my opinion
Grant Morrison did the same thing to Talia that they did to Magneto, made both characters mustache twirling victims which is why Marvel and DC almost immediately undid the major consequences 😂
While Morrison can be a great writer unfortunately he has a thing with taking Anti-Villains and making them ridiculously evil for the shock of it, just look at whet he did with Magneto duriing his New X-men run. It was so bad Marvel reconned it immediately afterwards.
Que bueno que no toco a deadpool
And this is why, I prefer Selina Kyle over Talia.
I honestly think there are ways of making her become evil without it being contrived
Or make him a villain without the Batman-obsessed side which is very uncomfortable
Im just wondering what well james gunn do to handle her ?
Considering that he's made tweets about having read the ORIGINAL Son Of The Demon, I think he'll give Talia her due diligence.
Yeah I'm wondering the same thing since Damian will be in brave and the bold
You should made a video about Silencer. Does anyone remember Silencer from New Age of DC heroes.
Honor Guest aka Silencer was more like Talia’s version of Dick Grayson.
This happen in Silencer Annual back in 2018
Talia told Silencer, that she is the daughter of the demon. She has no time for bonds and family. Except for Silencer.
Talia also told Silencer about she does have a family either. Do not let thoughts interfere with your purpose.
After Silencer save a family from Gangstas and when Talia told Silencer that Batman is on Ra’s Al Ghul’s hit list. Silencer figure out that Talia is a hypocrite.
Silencer have thought what is family.
Silencer questioned why Batman is family to Talia. Why protect is he goal’s opposes Talia goal’s?
As Talia told Silencer he will be part of family and important to Leviathan. This takes place before Talia created Leviathan.
Silencer did caught on how evil Talia is so Silencer left to start her own family. She wants to have a normal life. Silencer has a Husband and Son she truly wants to protect from Talia, Levitation and League of Shadows.
I am angry that Bendis made Silencer works for Talia again in Event Levitation. After everything Silencer went through her own series she works for Talia again.
Silencer was Last seen in Wonder Woman. And Silencer still wants to have a normal life with her family.
Man, I wish Silencer more popular in comics. Like Silencer was in CW Arrow but she needs this weird device to activate her meta powers.
Not like in the comics where Silencer can use meta powers by listen shushing in her finger.
Silencer did have a crossover with Nightwing.
I heard Silencer was in Red Hood and the Outlaws webtoon comic.
9:23 It happened a lot. There been people tries to use past comics without contexts to gaslight others that it always like this.
Grant Morrison, you will never know peace!
I think Batman and Talia could work in Elseworlds. Like if Bruce took over the league of shadows. He and Talia establish a dictatorship like injustice superman
Talia doesn’t want the league to be a dictatorship, she just wants her fathers money and recourses so she can help Bruce achieve his goal, she doesn’t believe in the world cleansing angle like Ra’s.
Selina Kyle/Catwoman is The Greatest & The Best Bruce Wayne/Batman's love interest. I hope it's eventually retconned that Bruce Wayne & Selina Kyle is Terry McGinnis/Batman Beyond's biological parents or Damian Wayne & Raven is.
Let's not forget Talia also slept with Jason Todd/Red Hood just to get back at Bruce 😂😂😂
I was looking for this comment. In the comic, Talia kisses Jason Todd when she helps him escape from Ra's after he is revived. I was so confused and I don't see anyone talking about that.
It wasn't to get back at Bruce, for once she wasn't even mean in this comic, I don't know, it was just weird. I think it's just that dc doesn't know how to write a man and a woman alone without it escalating and a bed being involved
@histoire_ia5779 Nah bro her sleeping with Jason was 100% to punish Bruce for killing Ras.
I would also like to argue the idea that they could write her in one of these Batman runs as a completely good character just considering the way that sadly she has been ridden was a character that tries to play being in the middle but then went all the way back so the next thing from a writing point of view is the character seeking some level Redemption and I think they're kind of already doing that by her wanting to be a better mother to Damien honestly I would even love if Damian gets another comic book where we see him find himself as he's currently not robbing anymore and seemingly even got them where he has his finding himself moment but also one of the constant supporting characters is Talia maybe helping him through funding his adventures and whatever he does cuz if not making her a completely good character to everyone in the bat family make her a good character to Bruce and Damian
I used to really like Talia's character I even prefered her over catwomen as a love interest for a while. and Grant started writing her. Even the dcamu did her dirty
That's the funny thing about it all for me is that a I have always been team Catwoman but I've never truly been against the idea of Talia al Ghul because I never have felt like in the modern day was it ever truly explored in a way where I feel like I've genuinely got a taste for the person Talia was for Bruce before she went like batshit crazy.
I do more hope and it was something that I found refreshing in like the Damian Comics was that Talia was a supportive mother seemingly so and actually did take time to understand him to a point considering in the runway Batman does confront Damian again I believe it's Talia that tells Bruce that he's gone too hard on him.
I would definitely like if they did want to bring Talia more into the bat family fold if she was a more like Auntie character but not really just under the idea that she's someone who's there just trying to help either Damien or Bruce and have their relationship be more reminiscent of a co-parenting thing that's why I love the fight between Bruce and Talia fighting Deathstroke for Damien I loved seeing them work together. And I would love more things like that where she's the unlikely Ally and then maybe you can transform that more into let's say a Spider-Man and Black Cat just under the idea that it's the flirtatious love interest just to see how the fans start to warm up to her because if ultimately the fans start to want that then I would say sure test it out
Also if you ask me the love interest of Batman in general, is Batman has been designed more or less James Bond type of character, who attracts a lot of beautiful women in his life but will never be in a stable relationship.
Even Talia did not go with that crazy psychopath road, her loyalty to her father has always been the issue. Even we went back to O'Neil's period, Talia basically keeps jumping between Batman and Ra's, and that idea itself, represents she will never build a stable relationship with Batman.
And for his other lovers? It's also not designed as stable relationship type. Catwoman is more a mirror to Batman, and shares some interesting dynamic because they are against each other but meanwhile accidentally shares a lot of common. They can also work together as one interesting duo. However, None of them will settle down for building a life together. Batman won't stop putting his personal mission first and Catwoman won't stop for chasing thrilling and freedom. They are great for one night but not long-term.
And these two are the most important ones in Batman's life already. Let's not even talk about Superman. Spider-Man even seems to have way more possibilities than Batman because he has MJ, and MJ will be the most ideal partner when she was written right (PS: Not modern MJ obviously). And even though Spider-Man also has similar character like Black Cat, Felicia has never been promoted as "the one" like Selina, and Peter wants a peaceful life outside of Spider-Man. Batman is too broken to even chase his happiness. That's the biggest difference.
0:22 Thank You I been waiting for like two years for my question. I heard that some people said It was retconned but never to me which comic it is.
Edit: The Comic is from Batman and Robin Born to kill ( a comic I also own / Read)
Comic one really makes Talia of DCAMU look a slightly better mother
Who's a worse parent: Shou Tucker, Gendo Ikari, or Talia al Ghul?
0:18 - Didn't even know they went back to the original over the retcon.
3:43 - I straight up forgot that happened.
6:28 - That right there was my 3rd introduction to Talia as a character and is what made me dislike her from that point on. I'm not even a big Damian fan but even that was way too much for him.
8:25 - It is, you talk about it at the end of the video but during the wedding event for Batman and Catwoman it came off as weird and wrong that she would still talk to Batman like she didn't do all the horrible crap to both him and Damian.
Honestly, I'm a huge Grant Morrison hater and will never forgive him for what he did. I'm hoping one day they fix Talia and make her a more complex character once again.
7:45 good lorrrrd...M think he slick 💀
This epitomizes my issue with new 52 in general. Darker and edgier just for the sake of being darker and edgier.
Talia will always be Batman’s baby mama
the kat william clip is so perfect for this 🤣
Hot take: But grants version of the events is actually a good thing for modern and even old comics.
There always was a decent amount of denial against abusive mothers, so much so that they were allowed to beat their child in public just because it "Wasnt the father doing it"
Fathers have been and still are demonized in comics. It really helped people see that both parents can be abusive.
Yeah, it really is a hot take because his racist caricature of the Al Ghul's does nothing for the characters or for the narrative that you're trying to push, he put the r*ape storyline in for shits and giggles and didn't even address it with the proper respect it deserved.
Bro dropping heat after heat after heat
It’s not as worse as her fate in the in the cartoon series
arkham talia is still the best one
The king has returned 🎉
I love whats going on with damian and Punchline currently
GOD…Talia could’ve been such a complicated and important character in the continuity besides being the one to give Batman his next robin(and without consent too 🙏💀), like we could see how she approaches "motherhood" knowing that she doesn’t have the best example. And the hope that Batman being the father gives her.Batman’s conflicting feelings about the whole thing…god it could’ve been so PEAK but these comic writers gotta have that sweet shock value so they don’t have to actually craft a compelling narrative but it’s mostly the fault of the publishers at dc tbh.
If it ain't a cat i don't wanna tap
4:32 I’d love this to get animated
Your forgetting the time that she forged aDNA test to make it look like Damian was actually the sun of death stroke and even convinced slade that Damian was his son all so she could get slade and Bruce to fight each other witch lead to slade finding out that Bruce was Batman cuz why would Batman care that Bruce Wayne got cucked and she did all this just cuz she loves drama
This is so exaggerated that it makes me laugh😂
Just like Wolvie you forget everything comics after the 2000s same with my favorite bat broad Talia.
Fuckin love this channel
Unfortunately I encountered/dated some Talia’s😔
1:02 that kid wasn’t Damian back then.
Idk why dc never made a comic about ra al ghul fighting vandal savage they been around thousands of years
Recent detective comics have retconned out & re-established her prior Damian birth characterization. They do have a compelling dynamic & most of bad stuff were just very clear racism & misogyny. Heck Damian even steals lot of Talia’s arc in crisis in choosing between Batman & Ra ideology.
@@Ashkenightcrawler nothing was really retconed out in the Ram V run. They just seem to be changing the Bruce and Talia dynamic to be more like the one before Morrison and trying to ignore it. Although, the previous Nightwing run did have a reference to some of her actions, meaning they're still canon.
@@NightRunner2099 So, all of that was for nothing then? Great…..
6:17 thank you
*that* change was absolutely awful
Does it matter?
They created a BADASS
Who was confirmed to become the future in most timelines
I prefer Batman true love interest Aka his love for adopting every little criter around him in 39 mile radius
Damien's issue is not that he is spoiled, it is that he is batman with the arrogance cranked up to 11. Maybe even 12.
I'm late but here's my view(I'm probably gonna get jumped but)
Catwoman (WHEN NOT FLANDERIZED I'M LOOKING AT YOU NEW BATMAN ADVENTURES) is my favorite famale Batman character qnd CLEARLY his soul mate (Long Holloween I love ya for giving me that)
I liked Talia on how she wanted to get out of her dad's abuse but then she just became "daddy's girl and crazy ex wife stereotype'
Batman x Batgirl 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
I see him and Wonder Woman as friends and teammates though Diana would make a good mentor for Tim
Edit: I know some HATE Catwoman like Kendrick Lamar hate Drake hate but this is just my opinion on her and the other wemon Brice is shipped with of you like dome others go ahead (As long as it ain't no Barbara Gordon)
no she is not
soul mate means more than just good sex
Bruce Timm was sick for making that ship.
@@CreativelyBankrupt-gc4dwAgreed great artist tho but not a fan of his writing at times
@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω😶😶😨 I I don't even know what to say about that
I wasn't referring to bed activities I just meant that that's who I like for Batman to be with the most I
I'm just confused
@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω😶😶 I I'm not gonna even try to respond to that I'll just let you have your own opinions
Same for Spidey.
This is rough…
why
@ You’re kidding, right?