I just purchased the Intel extreme 12 i9 kit and I am very satisfied. It is super compact, fast and still allows configuration and component replacement. Installation is a bit of a fingertip acrobatic exercise and it would be nice if some unused cables could be easier taken away, because space is really sparse. But all in all it is a very elegant solution. As long as Intel makes the compute unit easily available for repair/upgrade, this is a perfect compromise between Apple‘s highly integrated but extremely unrepairable / non-upgradable approach and a fully customizable machine. The only thing I miss is the optical disc drive. I am still old school with CDs and Blu-ray’s and will keep it that way to not be a slave of streaming. But it now has to be external.
@@ExplainingComputers and thank you for all your videos. Perhaps, to go a bit deeper: The really cool design of these extreme NUCs is the short path from the cool outside world to the hot components and out through the back or top again. The graphics card cooler fans are just behind the transparent right side, so that air does not have to travel through an intermediate enclosure as it happens in most large cases. Also having the power supply within the casing eliminates an external power supply hanging around. In a minimum setup, you would only need the power cable and video connection. Everything else could be wireless. Very clean. However, the NUC extreme will not be able to fit just any graphics card. I believe it is best with slightly shorter cards (two fans), since the full-length cards will seriously clash with the tailor fitted cables that run around the power supply. Also, mine brushes against the power supply rather tightly, leaving no space for any cable to squeeze in. Any card that is thicker than the perfect two slot width would clash with the case cover and/or the power supply, i.e. not fit in. Next, the power supply is 650W only and can only support 375W to the card. A few cards on NUC Intel's compatibility list require more power - not sure why they consider those. To run at sub-top-performance? Why then pay so much money to begin with, instead of going for a lower grade card that you can use to its full potential? A 3060 card or equivalent seems perfect. The Ti versions are likely already too beefy. And finally, with the current M2 SSD storage available, max internal storage is limited to 3x4TB. Which is a lot and high speed altogether ... but some might want to safe larger media files to slow discs. These would then be external drives. And a NAS is certainly a proper choice here. In summary: The NUC extreme is a beast, blazingly fast, silent, super space efficient and cleverly laid out. It is a great device for scientific or development work, a more than excellent gaming machine and easily maintainable. But if you need top notch graphics cards, or even want to run with multiples, if you need all your storage in one case or need even more RAM, you will have to go for a big case. And that is OK. NUC extreme is compact, maintainable power. Everything else is tower, laptop or small NUC. Finally, during initial setup I used the Intel integrated graphics only and it was superfast and smooth already. I believe that many home users and professionals, who are not into gaming, don't need a laptop but might want a multi-screen setup, can easily live with one of those smaller NUCs. The compute unit alone is very capable. And they can still swap components. Especially the M2 storage is only held back by what is currently available. So yeah, satisfied and for many the way to go.
Being old-fashioned is better than being "no-fashioned!" I am old-fashioned myself. I still use a desktop microcomputer, and would not care to exchange it for anything else. Also, I have a color laser printer, and a label printer that prints on laminated label tapes. Otherwise, I would not care to buy a laptop computer and carry it outside of home with me.🙂
@@captainkeyboard1007 you are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with a microcomputer - and neither with a large case. And funnily enough, Intel just released the next generation of the NUC extreme and it goes more and more towards mini tower again. But once I am at that size, I would probably go with a good old fashioned simple case.
After 15 years of using laptops only, I switched over to a desktop PC last year and couldn't be happier. It just feels like the real PC experience. Nice big monitor, full sized keyboard, good external speakers and upgradability. I don't need portability at all because my smartphone or tablet is good enough for that.
My attitude exactly. I already have a portable computer with my phone. I can get more desktop for the same money as a laptop. Plus if I'm actually doing real work, a desktop with multiple screens is far superior to any laptop or mobile device.
I had to move to a laptop when my son and I moved into an RV. But I chose a refurb Dell Precision M6800, a very nice business-class Laptop that can support 3 monitors (and at least one of those at 2K), and is fully customizable (even the graphics card can be replaced). However, 2 years ago we moved back into a suite, and I was looking forward to the day when I would switch back to a desktop. That time came, and I'm very happy to finally be able to type on the keyboard of my choice, and use a main monitor larger than 17" (I was already using a second monitor with the laptop, but now I can replace the laptop screen with a larger one also). It's also nice to be able to put in card readers, extra usb ports, more robust DVD/BluRay player/burner, and removable drive caddy. And it looks nice to put lights inside the case also! One thing I miss is having a battery backup power supply, so if the power suddenly goes out, the computer doesn't turn off. I guess I will have to invest in a UPS eventually.
Fully agree with you. Multiple monitors and CPU's running at twice the speed of their laptop counterparts speak for the desktop machines. I also need to point out the ergonomic advantage. Keyboard, Mouse and Monitor can be flexibly positioned to the most comfortable positions. This makes you more productive.
That is definitely true. We are not going anywhere, but we are a very small part of the market I think. So the feasability of offering components for this small market will be questioned. (sadly).
@@JeremyGreysmark But it also a highly profitable segment. Make cases for an OEM and earn $10 a case or so. Make it for retail and make earn $30-$50 on a case that sells for $150.
I am a retired computer system administrator. Back in the 1990s we were told by our vendor that we would need 6 TB of disk storage for our SAP systems. We calculated that this would require 50 ft (about 16 meters) of cabinets to hold the 10 Gb disk drives. Recently I bought a 5 Tb external disk drive to add to my desktop PC for about $130 US. I can't stop laughing.
I replaced my 2Tb hard drives in a Home Server with ten 16Tb drives. The 2008 server copes with five boxes of 8 drives but the more recent card only supports 5 drives on eSATA but 8 via USB. Windows 10 is limited to 26 drives if separately assigned.
I remember the old floppies and the storage media in between. Now with the USB sticks, I have to chuckle seeing the size of the stick and the amount of space on it (128GB for example). What I love about it is that mine is storing notes from three years of college (assignments etc) and now, I'm using it for my portfolio. With the external drive I have, love how I can store it all and not be overwhelmed with a pile of floppies.
Lol...I was a tig welder who worked at a place that made all the mainframes for the Coyote's, and Road Runner's in the 80's for a bunch of companies that are long gone...
I just watched a video about how during WW2 the US designed and built the B-29 in a couple of years. This aircraft was original in most of the important systems from it's pressurized cockpit to its new engines. When we put the effort, desire and cash into a project we can make huge strides in technology very quickly. I guess that's why I'm disappointing at the political Luddites who want to stop us from using technology when we have the ability to use technology to solve almost any problem.
I agree. But sadly I think we are headed down that route. And to some extent, we are already there, with no many computing devices being phones and tablets . . .
@@ExplainingComputers I can understand that for phones and tablets given space and size constraints. However, considering desktop PCs, even those small form factors have more than enough space to have individual parts replaced, there should be no logical reason to solder on the CPU, RAM and/or storage unless the intention is obviously planned obsolescence. Soldering the CPU, RAM and/or storage on desktop PCs is a dirty move. Hopefully, countries impose stricter regulations on these things to reduce the possibility of having to dispose a PC just because their soldered RAM/storage/CPU fails.
@@ExplainingComputers no joke - 2014 I took one of the first NUCs and installed xenserver 7 - 2012 server (Full domain controller) a windows 10 best and a windows 7 pro install. 4 different operating systems and all worked perfectly in the size of a box slightly bigger than a pack of cigarettes'. It's 2022 - they're doing some suppression everywhere to artificially keep physical computers and it's industry of waste alive.
I have wonderful memories of searching through Computer Shopper magazine, comparing mobos with chipsets then ordering the components to fit within my very limited budget. Of course putting them all together was the best part.
The tower PC is sooooooo much better for working on video, graphics and music and even gaming. I see them continuing to get better and easier to build.
I see the opposite happening. I think the PC will just continue to evolve like it always has. It's flexible, it allows for good airflow and heat management, its easy to maintain and upgrade, often offers the best bang for buck, and the best performance. Over the years it has continued to improve on and lead in all these areas. I see a lot of people caught up in the M1 hype coming back to tower PCs now.
One thing that RISC processors really help reduce is the amount of energy used, and thus, the amount of HEAT generated, which necessitates that MOST of the interior space of a tower these days be used for those massive fans and heatsinks (or fancy water cooling systems). If we could get all computers to use RISC rather than CISC processors, and integrate advanced graphics that were as powerful as their PCIe counterparts, and use M.2 SSD's all the way rather than hard drives or even 2.5" SSD's, then we wouldn't need those big towers anymore.
@@ebinrock if the processor can't compete with price, the tower PC will remain. The primary driver on why tower PC are still here is because it is still more expensive to own a compact PC with market equivalent parts.
good heat management -yes ; upgradable - yes ; (price/ )performance benefit - yes! However: dont expect the 90% average joes out there to think the same way you do. They have other priorities such as practicability and simplicity. They are satisfied with a gtx 3060 running at 80° in their laptop. They like the ability to store away their device and not have it waste/dominate significant space in the room. At my work (public administration) and my relatives' work desktop pcs are being replaced with laptops or thin clients(which dont have the benefits of the ATX form factor you had mentioned) It adds to the trend of desktop components becoming more expensive.
That's *exactly* what happened with me, and the nice thing was, this time, thanks to PCPartPicker, I was able to design my own, purchase my own parts, keep track of everything, and build it on my own. Can't ever beat that!
Christopher, I can't tell you how happy I am to see a new video from you on this topic. Your presentations have always been methodical, logical, comprehensive, well-articulated, and (refreshingly) slow enough for me to follow. That's compared to the many channels which seem to be in a race to CRAM-THE-MOST-SENTENCES-PER-MINUTE, editing out even the narrators' pauses to _breathe,_ and allowing me no time to mentally digest one point before they've moved on to the next! I've owned five desktop computers, with my most recent now being well behind the technology front line. But it's still very useful, because at purchase I loaded it with once-cutting-edge hardware, have updated it a few times, and now run Linux Mint as you do. I've fantasized for years _building_ my next one. This video has really updated me on the form factors and technology. While it has made the idea of a self-built somewhat less appealing for me, it has also shown me some upsides that will help me to let go of that dream if that's what I end up doing. A very nice overview and guide. Very well done.
Both graphics cards and CPU coolers are getting larger. There is no way small computers could house them. That's why I think that tower PCs will remain, just their specs will change. Even consoles are getting larger: both the PS5 and the Xbox Series X are larger than their predecessors. And also, it's fun to build you own tower desktop PC from the parts you yourself have chosen and bought each one separately where it's the cheapest. Where would I house all those drives?
Actually: The TDP of CPUs is dropping (Even performance level CPUs, especially Ryzens) and coolers are actually getting more compact, generally. Unless someone is overclocking. Example: Ryzen 5 5600x has a 65w TPD. Compare that an older performance CPU, like the AMD FX 8350, which has a 125w TDP.
@@creativestudios3d yeah, i can see that. my Ryzen 9 3950x is rated at 105W and with my OC settings, I've taken it to 125W @ 4600Mhz. edit: and that's with a custom water loop using a 240mm rad
@@creativestudios3d You are wrong. FXs were the outlier. 5600X uses 65 watts, but 7600X uses 105 watts. Look at wattage compared to chip sizes. New smaller dies use more energy than older larger dies. Compare Comet Lake to Skylake or Raptor Lake to Alder Lake.
The tower PC is never going away as long as high performance is something that the end device market demands. More computational power demands more transistors, more transistors expel more heat, more heat needs more cooling capabilities, and more cooling capabilities takes more space. Small form factors can't expel as much heat, and therefore will never have the number of transistors required to compete with larger ones in terms of performance. Apple's M1 was built on a 5nm node, a generation ahead of other micro devices on the market, and while I wouldn't say it is a bad product, we should do well to keep in mind that is was out performed by some of AMDs chips on the 7nm node. It was only out performed because of the size and power draw of AMDs cores, so just think about what a 5nm chip would be like with full desktop cores. You don't even have to imagine, because new chips from AMD were just announced with 25% performance uplift and x3d models with up to 30% more performance than that are coming. It's probably going to be around 50% average performance uplift for a ton of workloads when all is said and done! The point is, Apple silicone cannot be a generation ahead of it's competition in terms of manufacturing every single time and bigger die sizes will always outperform smaller ones making towers the only option for maximum performance.
IMHO, Apple M1 is overhyped. Apple M1 works as a portable device (power usage) but it can't compete with a tower. In short, the Apple M1 could throttle (even with light usage) and it is a big nope for anybody that need the most of the power.
Tower PCs will have much less market part in the future mainly because of cloud computing. Gamers (and probably big part of professionals) will use some kind of subscriptions - access to computing power from the cloud. I will be one of those dinosaurs still trying to build my own rig as I did in the last 25 years 👍
@@Sprytny_Roman If everything went to subscriptions big business will makes us pay through the nose for what we enjoy doing, a plus one for building our own rigs though
CPU coolers and GPUs seem to be getting bigger not smaller. Now even keeping a high performance nvme drive cool can require a decent amount of space and a heatsink. Dell were selling very small office based PCs over ten years ago and I imagine for low end usage that will continue, but I don't see larger cases going anywhere soon.
I can tell you what keeps me coming back to Tower PCs. For me, it's that I don't want a mess of cables and USB Hubs to hook up everything I want. The alternative to a Tower for me is to have to deal with an external GPU, an external Sound Card, and an external optical drive. Sure, a laptop or a NUC is fine if all you want is the base functionality of an M.2 and some USB sticks, with integrated audio and video. But it doesn't take much to get you back to the situation where you need a Tower PC. I will be pretty disappointed if in the future I can't have a box with everything I want and have to have everything spread on my desk with a USB hub because Laptop users decided that's good enough and I have to make do. Some of the more expensive laptops can rival a desktop, but everything is so tightly squeezed together and it's too hard to open them up and replace fans, etc. Also, you just can't run things as hot in the first place because there's not as much room for cooling.
@@robredzI have seen cheap mini PC less than $200 in Aliexpress with 16GB DDR4 RAM dual channel and 1TB nve SSD on Jasper lake CPU which can easily edit 4K video. As if this is not enough, you can install 1-2 TB SSD inside as well, costing around $50.
@@kamolhengkiatisak1527 Good luck running Pinnacle Studio 25 on that PC. It's laggy even on my 3070/Ryzen 9 5900X with 32.GB RAM and 4.TB M2 SSD. Also. Forget running Topaz, Waifu on any 200$ PC. Recommended RAM for Video editing minimum 64.GB RAM, but many struggles even with 256.GB RAM today. Uncompressed 4K video drains RAM as hell.
also, the anti right to repair and planned obsolescence from many big tech companies (which just care about maximizing profit in every possible ways, even dirty ones) also push those towers to be an endangered species
New laptops are all but sealed internet only junk ! No DVD ,no easy way to change out the battery ! Not all place one take a laptop has power or internet . The main purpose of one. Forced to use cloud based apps turns it into junk for a camper.
In that case people will boycott those tech companies which do not see value in the right to repair and who still support planned obsolescence. Probably we are going to see laws against this malpractice.
Thermal efficiency. The less power needed for more stuff done. But very likely 3.5 and 5.25 bays are going to disappear from the front of cases completely. If your lucky you will find a 3.5 mounting close to the PSU. Heck my case right now can not use the single 3.5 HHD mount if using a big PSU and RGB stuff in the case XD And laptops with there fans makes the small size a problem due to the noise. But a compact tower with multiple big fans can cool 700w and still be decently quite. No laptop can do that really. If it is 2010 components or 2023 components be dammed. A tower can handle 700W but a laptop is going to SCREAM trying to do the same trick. But looking at Apple there is a reality that performance is good enough now to not be needing fans to deal with the thermal efficiency losses for everyday use. Even some light gaming! Sweet. No fans is the best. But towers are not going anywhere fast. Just hard drives and all readers are DEAD. Truly DEAD.
@@TheDiner50 I think that enthusiests that want 3½" and 5¼" front accessable drive bays in the future will end up having to scratch build their own cases. Gamers who requier a top end graphics card and liquid cooling if they don't have a requierment for external drives don't need a tower case they just need a case where they can get air flow on the radiator(s) with the MB itself being ITX.
Tower PCs will never become obsolete because of the military factor. Our military grade non-stop defense computers uses the same principle used by security safe manufacturers that uses copper sheathing to defeat the oxy-acetylene torch (4000° F (2200° C) by having sufficient 99.99% pure copper thin fins of sufficient size and shape and we double their size and number above their engineering requirement. Military people find it amusing that civilian desktop computers are not up to par with our military grade non-stop defense computers in terms of heat dissipation and dispersion and the use of convection processes.
For such a thing to happen, GPUs and cooling solutions would need to be miniaturised. Even AIO coolers take a significant amount of space. I think this could be solved with small form factor PC cases that incorporate vapour chambers, radiator fins and a single fan into the design, along with standardised smaller GPU sizes. Edit: For more powerful PCs, anyway
I'm not entirely sure that's right. At the moment 4k 120fps is more or less relegated to the top end of GPUs, but a lot of people have already decided that they're fine with 1440p and don't really need more. As 4k becomes easier and easier to hit, I'm not entirely sure that people are going to feel the need to buy a high end, high power GPU to upgrade past that 4k 120 mark. And that mark will become easier and easier to hit with each successive generation. Even with the upcoming generation of GPUs, it's been leaked that Lovelace will be anywhere around a 4k ~150 - 200 FPS device, and RDNA 3 somewhere around 170 - 210 FPS, in the high end, which I think a lot of people (particularly those who bought a 4k 120hz TV) will decide is unnecessary, which means they might buy a lower end SKU that uses less power. What happens when a low profile card hits a high refresh rate 4k output with more or less maxxed settings? I think a lot of people will end up thinking "why do I even upgrade?" when considering a larger, power guzzling monster of a card designed for a resolution that they can't even see a difference in. What happens when an APU hits 1440p high settings? 4k high settings? A lot of people might just decide that it's not worth the bother of adding a GPU at that point. It's easy to look at the current generation of computer hardware and think that this trend of one-upping one another with increasingly less power efficient designs is going to keep going forever, but it does well to bear in mind that we're probably about to hit a soft wall in consumer demand as more exotic scaling solutions for GPUs appear, IMO.
well, the current line of gaming consoles are small and powerful enough and consume relatively very little power, the miniaturization already happened but not available yet on desktop apus for itx, a good small tower cooler exist, almost a decade old from companies like noctua not everybody likes liquid cooling
@@diablorojo3887 Good luck gaming, live streaming, rendering videos, compiling code, basically anything more demanding than dicking around on Facebook.
I know I'm in the minority, especially considering "the average user" but laptops are too limiting for me. My previous computer was a laptop (which I chose for various reasons) and it ended up being very non-portable due to the spaghetti of cables connecting external devices: two monitors, keyboard, mouse, USB hubs, external drives (because the internal storage isn't _nearly_ enough), speakers, etc. My current machine is a desktop and I'm so much happier. Plus, desktop hardware can be upgraded. I've already upgraded the (internal) storage, RAM, and GPU in mine. Laptops make more sense than desktops for an office environment. They need to be taken to meeting rooms, for example, or when we need to work from home. Imagine how the last two years would have been if everyone had desktops in the office and suddenly needed to switch to working from home full-time. I don't disagree with your argument that desktops will become more rare, but I for one hope they don't disappear entirely.
I agree with you. My laptop has basically one function. It is used as a clock with the clock screen saver! I use my desktop about 99.9% of the time, even though I have a laptop and two tablets plus my cell phone.
I'm sure you're aware that "enterprise/business grade" of laptops use "docking stations"???...and with the implementation of USB-C, v3.0+plus makes the laptop more expandable? You do realize that you are able to get external cases to house high-end graphics cards which you can then attach to your laptop via cable...right?🤔 But, yes, I'm on your side as far as an All-In-One unit Case that houses everything you need!!!
I agree. I hate laptops and my company forced me to get one. It has a docking station, which still uses plenty of cables. I prefer an SFF format to replace my oversized tower.
@@fookingsog My latest notebook is a higher end version of what my daughter uses as a work computer. She gets to run rather hefty spreadsheets, so hers is no slouch. I have four USB ports, three USB-A connectors, one USB-C. I have eternal SSD, I need an external card reader because the microSD card reader built in is of no use. An SDXC UHS-II reader would be good for almost everybody, those wanting microSD support just need to not lose the adaptor that comes with the cards. I also need to read CFExpress cars, fortunately no longer CF cards as I sold that camera. I could have cards from up to eight cameras to process. Extreme, perhaps, but there it is.
The one thing I always say when it comes to the idea of the full tower going away it is that gamer's and creators will always want as much power as possible. So as the tech gets smaller it just means that they can fit more and more into them. Not to mention that with most cases these days having a clear side, the tower has become as much a aesthetic art piece as it is a usable piece of hardware. Something to be said about full tower with dual reservoir custom loops. For more general use, yes the tower is almost gone already.
The worrying thing imo is the upgradeability of all of these new small form factor PCs with soldered SOCs that just simply cant be upgraded, including storage which Apple, in particular, charges a lot for. I think the progress with M1 and M2 is really impressive especially for laptops, however it removes the freedom to repair and improve our own hardware, meaning we have to buy a whole new product from them to get upgrades.
TBH, unless you upgrade your CPU every single year, with the rapid changes in sockets & motherboard capabilities (eg faster WIFI, Ethernet, busses, new USB 4.1 gen 2x2, etc) it is pointless to even worry if the CPU is soldered or not; you'll want/need a new MB along with the new CPU.
@@tombyrer1808 Let say the product only have 8GB rams, but soldered. You want to upgrade the RAM to let say 16GB. Which mean you sell the laptop and buy a new one? Impressive for throwing out money
@@tombyrer1808 I haven't upgraded my amd mobo for a couple generations now so that point doesn't ring true. Also what if you want to upgrade to a more powerful cpu within the same generation but you already have a fully capable mobo?
Things have changed dramatically in the last two decades. You don't even need a PC for most "casual" use cases. So, it looks like PCs in general are mostly used by computer enthusiasts and gamers. But since those groups of users use high-end CPUs/GPUs which require good cooling solutions, the big-ass tower cases aren't going to become extinct.
the way i see it, the people who did not use a computer regularly 20 years ago are the same ones that "don't need a tower pc" today. it's hard to go by without any computing capacity nowadays, but a smartphone will suffice for their usecase.
I think gamers will keep this tech alive for the foreseeable future. Games will only get exponentially more advanced and it’s not like a laptop is going to be running games and VR like a PC can.
What's considered causal today will not be causal in the future. It is likely you will need more powerful components to keep up with the demands of the casual use of the future.
I really hate this notion of having to kill off one thing for something else to exist. I also remember the days of when the laptop will kill off the desktop. It happens with programming languages as well, yet the oldies (and still goodies as far as I am concerned) are still around. Like with everything, it depends on usage type. I deal with programming (compiled languages), 3D modeling/sculpting/, 2D artwork, game dev and I still don't even consider a laptop for serious work in all of those fields combined. There are sacrifices made with mobile abilities. I do see more of everything being a service etc, especially with Windows and Mac, even their OSs. I remember the dummy terminal days, at least with the old days of not being connected to a WAN, there was more security compared to now with the always connected mentality. There are some markets that just won't exist in the same manor following a dummy terminal method, or at least not as well. If this happens, it will be more because customers are complacent about it happening compared to anything else. I don't think it is a viable future with Linux as that tends to go against the ethos of Linux, but for those that are on the other OSs, yep, I can see that easily happening.
It's not really killing off, they're just going to be less prevalent. People are still going to need powerful hardware. But for most normal people it just makes more sense to go for smaller computers.
Laptops will not kill off desktops because CPU and GPU manufacturers will never stop improving their products and the size trend is upwards for those components not down, and the biggest domestic PC market is gamers who demand power.
@@mjc0961 I think you missed what "that" is. "That" is in reference to this particular future that is being proposed goes against the ethos of Linux, not Linux itself.
The growth for Tower PCs will come from the gaming space. Apart from being able to bundle better and faster components the space inside combined with tower cases with transparent side panels allows gamers to showcase RGB ready internal components. The Tower PC is part of a showcase installation… the NUC option does not offer the same volume of showcasing space for components….
One of the things I've always loved about tower PC's is the ability to mod them... To make them look unique and/or add functionality and features. For example, my last case was a Zalman Z1 with stepper motor controlled top flaps to stop dust getting in from the top. I modded it around the idea of a stealth fighter jet. I built a little control panel that was right next to my right hand even though the case was on my desk. With it I could change the case lighting from RGB to UV, desk back-lighting on two brightness levels, it had fan control knobs, power and reset switches, a switch to open and close the top flaps and I put a 5.25" card reader/USB/eSATA thing into it too. Made it really look the part with adhesive letters to label each part.... I loved that case but when my kid starting walking, I knew her head would come into contact with it some time soon. So I had to get rid of it in favour of a mid-tower, which I have obviously modded! Modding a NUC....? Cut a hole and put another fan on top. That's about it, lads!
There's a large variety of tops available for NUCs (Pro range) to expand their functionality. The board is completely removable to do as you see fit with the chassis. I'm modding a couple of NUCs at the moment. They're an interesting challenge. Very much like modding ITX chassis, but for a 4x4in form factor. Note: there are different product ranges, including Perfomance and Extreme (shown in video), Pro models (with vPro support), Element (Celeron/Pentium variants of Performance), Compute (SBC embedded type using a proprietary slot in design to a mainboard), and laptops.
Manufacturers have an incentive to lock you into their proprietary hardware (as small as possible, stuck together with clue if necessary). You have to pay them to upgrade every 2 - 5 years as the planned obsolescence cycle dictates. This is, once again, convenience vs. freedom.
Similarly, look at how the Raspberry Pi has an enormous range of third-party cases, mods, expansion "hats", and rival SBCs with compatible form factors and GPIO pinouts. You might not be able to easily desolder the CPU and RAM chips the same way you can swap socketed parts but NUCs and other mini PCs don't have to mean the death of moddability.
@@saturnGEEK I wasn't aware of that because, as you can probably tell from my original post, I've been pretty narrow minded about NUC's thus far! Looks like something to have a little look into though! Thanks mate!
@@wereoctopus The thing I love about SBC's is the fact they've been made purely to be used for anything the maker wants them to be used for leaving it completely open to moddability whereas PC modding started kind of as a niche thing because people got sick of beige boxes and ATX boards need to go into ATX cases (unless you're a badass and make your own housing for them, which I'm not badass enough. Yet.) When I was talking about the lack of moddability on NUC's, I was thinking purely from a perspective of limited space. I admitted to Swilly that I have been narrow-minded, and I'll throw my hands up but it comes from the idea that I can throw water-cooled loops, fans, lights, PSU shrouds etc etc inside an ATX case and I can chop holes, add extra grilles, throw an Arduino Nano and a couple servos, probes etc inside to make other things happen etc etc. The space to play with is the bit that grabs me about towers. I won't badmouth SFF PC's or SBC's because they definitely have a place in the environment but for me personally, I like having the space to play with. Now... a NUC with an external control panel, like the one I mentioned before would be bitchin'! Have the NUC hidden away, carefully run the cabling from the controls and external IO. That's something I'd like to try :)
What I believe we need is a newer Standard. PC's are all about modularity and choice and giving that up is going to be a tough sell for companies. I look at my desktop and it isn't empty at all... The AIO, fans graphics card, along with the PCIe USB expansion card have filled the case up. I actually hope miniaturisation will occur, but right now, we just have diversification, with Mini PC's being the niche. Great video.
given the power requirements of new ryzen CPUs and upcoming GPUs it will ultimately be the cooling solutions that play a considerable role in dictating size and I don't see that getting any smaller yet
I own and operate few desktops and laptops. All this time still can't get used to laptop's keyboard. I probably will buy a mini PC / NUC sometime in the future but it still defeats the purpose of miniaturization - I will still have a hard time using it as mobile platform anyway. So still, laptop for mobile, PC for serious work.
I agree. I just went on vacation and I lugged my Desktop PC with me. It was quite heavy with all the stuff i have in it, but I wasn't going to settle with my laptop for a whole week to game with. The condo room had a large HDTV so I used that for my monitor. I would love to see a new smaller lighter standard thats still modular.
Go look at 80s computers for what PCs were like before VLSI and smd was the norm. SOC ie system on a chip is very good for lower spec low piwer PCs, but not for powerhouses.
My Tower is still standing! In fact, I'm into my 4th DIY tower build...and using it every day. Not only is it a tower...but a Super Tower, I think it was referred to. It is extra tall. I'm using a lot of advanced musical software and hard-ware connections, so I'm quite unwilling to give up on this form factor. I love your videos...Please keep it up!
For the third point to happen on "The Tower Falls" segment, they are going to have to come up with some very creative and very consistent cooling solutions, especially for gaming and graphic content. I just don't see that happening as soon as 2030. I have yet to see a gaming laptop outlive a gaming desktop. Aside from that, you also have to take in consideration the ability to upgrade parts which is not the easiest thing to do in a smaller form factor.
I do think towers will become more niche over time, but I don't see them going away completely. Noise issues alone are enough to keep me from having a system as powerful as my desktop in a laptop or mini from how fast the fans would need to run.
My small form factor computers, my Mac Mini, my HP ProDesk are a lot more quiet than my tower. althoug I've been working on quieting the latter with component replacement in fans and power supply.
What is keeping the big box PC alive is that high performance CPUs and Graphic Cards are creating more heat than ever before, which needs a big box to allow air flow and large aggressive cooling systems both of which take up a lot of space.
Yes, and all of that is driven by the development of ever more demanding software and monitor technology. Virtual reality will also be a potentially huge game changer :)
In the end "tower" PCs are still the *_best bang for the buck._* Even without all the expand ability they are better performers for less money than any of these others. Apple products will always be expensive for their lower performance. Things will get smaller but best bang for the buck won't be changing any time soon. And high performance computers still produce heat and tiny computers (NUCs, laptops, etc.) are either slower or get really hot. Excessive heat reduces lifespan. (RPi is a different category.)
I cannot agree about value for money. Value for money depends purely on production volume, and as these units become ever more niche they will lose any economy of scale and so will become very unaffordable for most people.
@@Hfil66 so long as gamers feel the need for more power they're going to be running hardware that needs a spacious fan-filled box to keep cool. Gaming isn't going to become "niche." Hard to say what will happen with the tech after ten years though.
@@2ndavenuesw481 You are talking about hard core gamers. The kind of people who will spend £2K on a graphics card are not going to working about spending £4K or more on the rest of the PC, but I would contend that this is even today a niche market. What I would contend with is that you will not be able to buy a tower PC for under £4K (plus inflation) within a few years (while most people are still looking to pay under £2K in 2020 prices for a PC), and that alone will scare anybody who is not looking for the creme de la creme in PCs. That pretty much defines a niche market.
@@Hfil66 Even now, artists still require relativity high end hardware. Eventually, waiting for Blender to finish a full day render while the laptop is hot enough to cook bacon starts to get tiring. Desktops may get smaller with MiniATX and ITX, but they aren't going away
HP did a good job of making a PC smaller & easy to service with models such as the HP Elite 8300. Components such as the hard drives and CD rom drive could be changed very quickly. It was also easy & quick to pull apart for removing dust & cleaning inside. In comparison most laptops are still a real pain to pull apart to clean fans or replace any component.
As usual, a concise and informed video Christopher. I will be one of those that maintains several tower cases, but also use the much smaller machines. As a builder I tend to lag the market and am gaming on a Ryzen7-1700x and GTX 1660 combo and in a nice, quiet, cool, easy to work on tower case. The machine I use as an office PC is a Jetway Industrial mini-ITX with an i7-3720QM in a 260mmx180x80 aluminum case, fanless, silent, cool. The machine we attach to out TV for streaming, a NUC6CAYS. What we older chaps call Horses for Courses.
Thanks for a very good summary of the current status of PC form factors. I have built my own computers for the last 30+ years. Until recently they have all been towers (except for the first two - 8088 and 386, which were 'desktops'). It has always been the case of doing the research, building it and then sometimes upgrading - you get the benefit of learning along the way. Gaming motherboards still appear to be evolving, but they may well favour the smaller form factor as you have indicated.
As someone who looks forward to a fresh build every 5-6 years like a kid on Christmas morning, the idea of a world where swapping or fixing my devices can only be done with a heat gun and shim card is very saddening. I'll be building my third tower in January next year and I certainly hope it's not my last.
i think that the perfect example of that is the pi itself, it has all the basics but the storage, no case in case you want to make your own the problem is expansion or upgrades, none available perhaps pi in the future can do that i do believe that itx will evolve alot thanks to amd apus at the level of consoles, leaving you the spave for a pcci express or two devices to be added
One big consideration... software, and software requirements. A tower is easier to upgrade over time. As someone who has both Raspberry Pi and Micro Form Factor Thinclient for desktop uses, I am going back to the idea of building my own tower PC. You cannot really beat them for upgradablity.
Size and cheapness of hardware will mean it will not be an either/or but multiple pieces doing more dedicated jobs leaving the generalities for the main PC.
The only thing which can compete with the tower PC in terms of upgradability, is a suitcase PC, which is like a flatter tower PC with a lot of riser/extension cables for the components. For example, the dedicated GPU would not be perpendicular to the motherboard, but parallel to it, sitting next to it on a frame. The storage would also be either on the motherboard, or on the same surface as the motherboard and dedicated GPU. The power source and battery would be the same way. And all of that would have a lot more airflow than a laptop, and comparable to the airflow of a tower PC, depending on it's case. Though this would require the motherboard to be shipped with a waterproof coating to protect against spilling and condensation during transport. Also, I hope we will see HDD-sized dedicated GPUs, namely 2.5" and 5", depending on the slimness of the device we want it on, and the space we have free. For example, we might choose a 5" GPU and deal with the extra weight, or we might choose a 2.5" GPU to have a lighter and/or smaller suitcase PC or add more fans or extend the heatsink to make it fit in a 5" slot. The 2.5" GPU form-factor would also fit very well in DIY handheld PCs, which would be somewhat similar to the steam deck, but would allow you to choose the screen, the controllers, and most of the other parts inside, including the power supply and battery.
At the moment I have a SFF build and have packed the most in there I can, there is no way towers are going anywhere when more powerful cards like the 4000 series are getting release every few years, these cards draw a lot of power and need high end cpus to fully utilize them, which calls for larger coolers and power supplies.
With a lot of the newer systems, you actually need all that "empty" space for either air movement or liquid cooling systems to keep these high power-high temp components from overheating and frying. Even a lot of new SFF (Small Form Factor) computers have a liquid cooling system, look at a case like the Louqe Ghost S1 where builders were placing a minimum of a 140mm AIO to keep the CPU cool. I don't see towers going totally away as gamers and some graphic artists want the large storage capability that many smaller computers don't provide. As a graphic artist, I want to have multiple storage bays for SSDs as well as an M.2 on the motherboard for the OS.
I'm definitely not against the "Fall of the Tower" -- Small form factors are very nice if you're building a mid-range machine with moderate cooling needs. I would however strongly dislike a loss of standardization. Laptops tend to have very limited performance & lifespan due to thermal management issues, and they're hard to repair and recycle. The Mac Mini and Intel NUCs are brand-specific, proprietary form factors. There are a lot of upgrade/repair paths which are made impossible, like switching to an AMD CPU for example. This also means that when a component fails, you're likely going to create more e-waste than strictly necessary. For this reason, I do love the mini-ITX standard. Despite the limited size, mini-ITX cases tend to offer a lot of flexibility.
tower won't fail, upcoming trends will give small form factor a LOT of issue with cooling, its literally a new space heater generation with hardware according to talk on it. That means larger cases to cope with it
i'm not saying t here won't be stronger small form factor computers than there is now (esp in oems) But the reality is that the higher end (and more sensible) systems WILL be at least mid tower if not full size towers or larger. After all linus troll tips PROVED that a top of the line small form factor pc is barely viable to build much less run safely in a real world environment. It was Toasty even during his test, give it a little neglect with dust or pet hair or smokers and that can much more easily go up in flames and smoke. Facts he conveniently only hinted at and neglected to mention or warn about. Not saying it isn't a risk even with more sensibly sized towers but more air flow and a more proper ventilation setup means it'd be able to take more before such a thing happened. And that was with CURRENT hardware, with the upcoming generation it'd probably overheat pretty fast if it'd even fit (probably would require a larger case at least) They've compared what the information about it would be like and basically it isn't viable at least with that case.
@@patg108 It is my suspicion that small form factor for next gen would very likely require custom cases, and by the looks of it, custom coolers if they are to remain performant. Blowmatrons can only go so far
My company, employing mostly engineers and CAD technicians, about 5 years ago completed a switch of all employees to laptops from desktop towers. I think enthusiasts will remain on tower computers for a long time and I'm ready to build myself a new one for home use but I also use a home laptop frequently. However as home users have migrated from desktop computers they have migrated to using multiple monitors which is a problem with most laptops. At my office we use docking stations to connect external keyboard and multiple monitors to a single laptop, but docking stations are somewhat problematic. If home computers migrate to small form factor they will have to integrate more external connectivity than laptops have. And for home use a small form factor PC will need to be cost competitive and currently they are not. I've looked at currently available small form factor computers and concluded that I can build a tower computer of similar power for significantly less cost.
While I know I am in the minority; i've always enjoyed the look of a fully loaded tower case with every expansion bay filled. Its a goal I always strive for with every build; the latest containing two graphics cards (Not SLI but for rendering and more monitor outputs), capture card, sound card, m.2 storage, and 10 gig networking. Takes me back to those IBM PS/2 Model 60 tower behemoths. The tower case market may shrink however as long as there is demand for local high performance computing its never going away completely.
True. And I tried to get ahead of the curve. Chenbro RM24100. If desktop pc is going away, and servers are still made and built, better go get a server.
I grew up using tower PCs and now own one myself. I'd be sad if tower PCs as we know it ends up going away. But I guess technology has to keep moving on up... However, the fact that it could live on as retro tech gives me a bit of hope as well as a white hair or two. While tower PCs will end up falling out of favor for smaller, sleeker PCs, at least it'll live on in the retro tech community just like how the VCR and a lot of old gaming consoles have been. You know what else could be considered an endangered species? PCs with disc drives. There are still some in towers but with laptops? A lot of new ones don't have them. Awful if you're someone who still adores DVDs like it's a spouse or have software that comes on discs. Sure you can buy a USB disc drive but to me, that sounds like something the cat will knock down and break. By the way, I apologize but the Mac Pro looks like a cheese grater. A $6000 gigantic cheese grater. I wonder if you can actually use the front to grate some Parmesan? Now that's what I call mac and cheese. 🤪
I miss my old Server Tower I once had. It was 1m high case fitted with full size ATX, twin CDR, Twin 1Gb SCSI 10,000rpm HD, Voodoo 3DFX.... I loved those days. Now I still have a tower but much smaller, it has RGB but to be honest it's stuck under the desk
@@deanharrysmith718 I remember how my parents had tower PCs made by Compaq (rest in peace). I can't remember the specifics now but one of them ran Windows XP and had a LightScribe drive and the other ran Windows Vista. Believe it or not, the latter chugged on for several years before kicking the bucket! There was also a time we had two other towers; one of which ran either 95 or 98 and the other which ran XP. One of my earliest computing memories actually involves me trying to run some Bob the Builder PC game that was meant to run on 95/2000 on XP to no avail. Now, as for my current tower PC, it's a low-end HP one running Windows 10. It's good enough for drawing and running casual and older games, but I can see myself upgrading to a more powerful computer in the future.
@@allansh828 Open air computing sounds very intriguing but also a bit risky. Then again, I can't say crap about taking risks with computing because one time when I was younger, I was using my laptop while drinking some good old Sunny D on my bed and I accidentally spilled it all over the bed. It missed my laptop all because it was on top of a USB laptop cooler that I lost the cord to, but still have even to this day.
I've been hearing this for the last 10 years or so. Enthusiasts and gamers will always want to build their own PCs. As long as the market is there for components, the companies will continue to provide them.
They are custom building DESK with pc's built in them etc, so your right gamers will always stay to custom builds. Its even becoming popular with youtubers now to have the best cleanest most expensive pc right?!.
I've just bought one! There can't be many household devices that are so flexible or fixable! (it's predecessor lasted 9 years before the motherboard died.)
Or as reasonably priced. The video missed the fact that so many of these small devices with space for a video card are extremely expensive, and buying an external PCIe chassis for those that don't is also extremely expensive.
I doubt we'll ever truly see the end of the ATX tower PC - speaking as someone who built theirs, having room to expand and having easy access to all the components is in itself more than enough reason to keep the form factor, and that's a position widely held by enthusiasts, too. For the time being, ATX towers also benefit greatly from better thermal performance owing to either having airflow or the space to mount liquid cooling, further widening the compute performance gap.
Chris, one of the key reasons I think desktop computers will stay around is ergonomics. Phones and tablets are horrible on your back and wrists (especially if you have carpal tunnel). A ergo keyboard connected to a NUC or similar computer will be a major market for a long time.
There's also flexibility. There hasn't been much change since PC97 came out, but it didn't really change much other than specifying colors for a lot of the common ports and that was about the time that you started to see buttons that were electronic rather than mechanical, so you could have a computer that could switch off without touching the button. Personally, I do think that I'll probably go back to the '70s era of computing in terms of using a thin client for much of my work as the room I work in is rather small and gets hot rather easily. A small computer like a Raspberry Pi with a monitor, keyboard and mouse with the rest of the computer in a larger room where it's not baking me would work perfectly well. There's even off the shelf KVMs out there that do just that. Or, you can use VNC or RDP to do the job in a more DIY style.
I imagine there would be improved support for connecting peripherals. E.g external monitors, keyboards, mice. Samsung Dex works now but it's not perfect right now.
I agree that machines will be used this way, but they might as well be the same laptop you pack up and take to class or work. There are advantages to having two computers (and I'm glad I do), but most people would prefer to have just one. I have the big tower PC but it may well be my last one unless I decide to build the next one for silence, in which case I'll appreciate a large box. And I have a hacked Chromebook running Windows 10 that may as well be a NUC, because it has puffed up _two_ batteries now and this time I'm not replacing it. But before that, it did double duty as a laptop 2% of the time, and a set top box 98% of the time.
I don’t believe towers will go away for a while. They may not be in the mainstream market but may fall to Professional Workstations still and Gaming Markets. GPUs for the gaming market are still 2 and 3 slots, tons of heat and still power hungry. The smaller PCs will probably be in more end user homes and offices where they are more for client systems rather then Heavy Workstation. I understand that you can off load to a virtual server but the cost of that infrastructure is expensive.
I'm a curmudgeon. I am not giving up my 5.25 bays or optical. HDDs are still way more long-lasting granted you don't try to dribble them like a basketball. I still have old IDE HDDs that are still going strong. My line in the sand is set. If I can't tinker and fix it myself I don't want it.
@@dasit6034 Exactly this. The gaming PC market is the largest and most lucrative one. Especially because the workstation and gaming markets are sort of intertwined and workstations often use gaming PC parts. Towers aren't going anywhere, probably ever. You practically need one if you want to easily install a good watercooling setup.
I recently did a machine learning course and my 2019 tower PC handled all the computation requirements nicely. Dedicated GPU meant that geometric progression calculations were so much more efficient than running the same calculations on the CPU (CUDA+Python). Even so, some games can get the fans whirring along, so good luck with lag trying to play PvP.
A factor not mentioned in the decline of towers are the NAS boxes proliferating. A major reason to have a tower was to house all those hard drives. That function is now being split off into separate boxes.
Desktop sales may be lower because we can upgrade them and often do. A good motherboard generally goes through 3 or 4 video cards before we upgrade it to a newer motherboard to fit the bandwidth of our video cards potential.
back in the early 2000s people were predicting the end of desktop PCs... they were wrong then.. and they are wrong now. I believe there will always be a contingency of people who will opt to have a computer that they can build, maintain, and upgrade w/out external support.. and that IS the Tower PC. Most people that use Apple computers wouldn't know the difference between a ram stick and an M.2 drive if you showed it to them.
I hope you are correct. Note that here I am not predicting the end of desktop PCs, but of tower PCs . . . and sadly there is growing evident for that. What some people want to do rarely dictates changes in the market or technology. :(
Went to help Mum clean out her garage the other day, saw some old tower PCs still there. Brought back so much old childhood memories. There's certain charm about the retro look and feel. As they say everything old is new again eventually.
I remember when Tower pc's made (ok, I'm not sure what they were called) horizontal PC's obselete, there was a magazine called computer shopper that was literally an inch or more thick. Tower PC's are more user customize-able, though, you may not need an optical drive, HDD or floppy drive, but definitely the video card and being able to put peripheral cards in the slots for more USB ports, SCSI (if that's still used) etc
my main problem is still that though yes you can get laptops that have a lot of processing power and I/o ports they cost so much that it still makes sense just to build a tower and if you are a power user or the tech guru of your friends and family I almost always find uses for my tower that would either take forever on a laptop or wouldn't be possible/would require me to buy adapters and standalone hardware like a drive bay.
When someone wants a new *_laptop_* I'm often the one trying to convince them of the benefits of a desktop instead. A large amount of laptop buyers don't even use them as portable computers but they just sit on their desk instead. Same with people buying "all-in-one" computers...
I recently upgraded to a Mini ITX desktop and I admit it was a huge step forward from traditional ATX, largely due to the amount of space saved and the complexity of cable management. I very likely will not go back.
@@ExplainingComputers Hopefully they won't. The biggest part of the fun, at least for me, is spending hours comparing and selecting the parts that fit my budget. And after the machine is built, I get a big sense of accomplishment. I am sure that many people feel the same way and won't buy it with the laptops, tablets, etc. which are a nightmare to maintain, upgrade or simply repair.
@@GamesFromSpace May be. However, quality components are not cheap now too. Yet, people buy them simply because they enjoy building PCs. Also, when you build your own PC it is unique, that justifies the extra expense😊
I'm old school in that i prefer tower PCs, but then I am 57 so I guess that's to be expected. The space inside isn't wasted in my view, as it allows for plenty of airflow for cooling as well as expansion. Being an electronic musician i use a lot of storage for audio files which can be very large. Maybe not as much as a film maker, but it's a lot. Not been too fussed about graphics accelerators until recently as now there is a new tecnology that uses GPUs as DSPs, so now I am interested. In fairness, my current laptop is more powerful than any PC I have ever owned, with SSDs and buckets of RAM, but i still prefer a tower in the studio.
My first PC was 286. I remember it not being AT or ATX. I think it was called ST or XT. It was very heavy. My monitor was non color monitor, so I had only black and yellow colors. The graphics card was CGA. I believe that towers will stay with us for quiet a while. There is no other option when it comes to gaming PC's with watercooling and lots of noisy fanss. People are still going to use them.
I believe you're probably correct. However, there's a big benefit to the larger box: thermals. The big issue with ITX form factor gaming PC's at the moment is heat dissipation in high performance applications. Once that problem is solved, we'll probably see smaller form factor PC's become the norm, as you said, in the 2030's more than likely.
If designers like the ones at Apple weren't so damn consumed by the perfect aesthetics of everything, maybe they could include more ventilation slots all over the chassis (which might actually look cool if they give it a try), and that way the heat has plenty of spaces where it can go.
Also I normally use more than just 1 slot. The M.2 wifi adapter can be replaced by an E-key slot, but the other (RME interface) cannot. Sometimes you need some expansion but not a full ATX.
I kind of miss an ITX build because of the cost for a new case and power supply unit. But I would love to have one once I save up enough and my current hardware had done 4-6 years of service. Then I can pack them up, travel between countries and set them up like a mobile base. It would be a console killer.
Interesting times for sure, but even as an enthusiastic owner of an M1 Max, I think the desktop will continue to evolve and adapt much like your example of the AT to ATX evolution. Deep dives into the M1 architecture show that while the integrated components are a significant part of it's incredible performance per watt, it isn't the silver bullet. For example, the on-package memory is set up in an 8-channel configuration of LPDDR (which I believe has been called "the poor man's HBM") which is what allows it's ferocious memory speed. Likewise, the integrated GPU also relies heavily on this shared memory, which is why heavier projects that would saturate a PCI bus do much better on the SoC architecture. And of course, there's the other parts of the M1 architecture that are glossed over, such as the fixed-length instructions, lack of 32-bit instructions, and AArch64's own proprietary extension of the ARM ISA. I certainly agree with your point that the full tower desktop will become more niche in its application, however this doesn't necissarily mean the death of internal expansion. We still haven't seen what the ARM competition has or will come up with (many of which have stated their intention to build M1 competitors). Every other processor company has a different business model to Apple, which means that one specific point of leverage that Apple has cannot be afforded to their competiton: die size and transistor budget. Apple's M1 series have very large die sizes and incredible amounts of transistors, which are only sold in Apple computers. The cost of manufactue of which can be mitigated in the sale of the computer as a whole. The competition doesn't have this luxury, as they sell their processors to OEM's and consumers directly, meaning that the processor has to have a profit all its own. As an extension to the fact that we haven't seen the response from the ARM competition yet, the use of an SoC architecture doesn't necissarily prevent expansion. Another Apple example: The Mac Studio does have the SSD controller built onto the SoC, but has two socketed drives of "dumb memory". As well as the Mac Pro tower, which uses the T2 chip as a memory controller as has 2 drives of "dumb memory". As for things like PCI lanes and such, we know the M1 architecture allows for expansion through Thunderbolt ports, which are extended off the PCI bus. (The lack of graphical expansion being related to the architecture simply not being set up to communicate with any external graphics and having no drivers even if it could). Indeed, for the M-series Mac Pro it's already rumored to have two PCI expansion slots. It's not a great leap of logic to think that other competitiors who may adopt an SoC architecture for better efficiency would still have room for expansion. In the current x86 space processors with on-processor graphics already have the capability to be expanded upon with graphics cards. If NVidia gets into the SoC ring as they've stated their intentions to do so, I think they'd be keen to sell OEM's and consumers two products instead of one alone. I'm sure Qualcomm or Samsung would also be keen to be able to "outsource" the powerful graphics to AMD or NVidia rather than have to develop their own SoC to compete with them. I can certainly see socketable RAM dying out though, that's just a direct casualty of unified memory. But I can't name the last time I've had RAM fail on me, so that's neither here nor there. PCI expansion is just too ingrained in professional applications to go away completely (a non-graphics example I can think of is AVID cards for music recording.) And as a final note, Apple themselves tried the whole "non-expandable, small form factor, high performance desktop" in 2013. It flopped so badly they made a public apology in 2017 and released a tower in 2019.
I doubt socketable ram will ever die. No one wants to buy a new cpu just to get a ram upgrade. That is ridiculous, and furthermore there are probably limits to how much unified memory you can cram onto the chip. Good luck getting 2 Terabytes of ram on an SOC.
Miniaturization and integration certainly can do some great things for performance, but it also makes everything more obscure and closed to the user. Even with the current desktop paradigm we have plenty of invasive and restrictive features built into the hardware, affecting our security and privacy, which damage our freedoms. I see these future ultra-integrated monolithic machines not only as a detriment to consumer freedom (being able to choose and combine components into a custom setup), but also to general human freedom (not being surveilled and controlled by a state-corporate global tyranny). I wish that even in that coming market, perhaps a new set of open standards will spring up, even in the required smaller form factors that the industry seem to be going for, to allow the contiuing customizability of consumer level computers. Or that, at least, new players will pop into the market and offer freer alternatives to the offerings of big corporations so you won't be under their control as much. Well, that's assuming the world doesn't plunge into the new feudal slavery dark age that no small ammount of powerful people seem to be bent on getting us to, in wich case, there won't be any options at all...
I suspect we're going to reach a point where consumer level computers are good enough that they only get replaced when damaged. We're getting pretty close. I had my last PC for about 10 years. I upgraded the hard drive, ram, and processor and a friend's kid has been using it happily for three years now.
i5 3rd gen has enough processing power for most basic office users today. For the seniors market segment, we're already there for the entire segment. And that CPU is 10 years old now. Unless the "You will own nothing and be happy" thing happens, I can easily see a day when your LAPTOP is more likely to be older than your CAR.
I think we have been there for years. XP is an excellent OS which is both customizable and powerful. True I now use a Linux box for browsing and frequently use either my 'phone' or tablet to watch UA-cam on my 'telly' but no one has come up with a good reason to move to anything else other than 'X is new.'
I had kept on carrying over second hard drives to the next computer that I built. One hard drive, a SCSI HD lasted 12 years. Right now I have one hard drive that is probably about 12 years old now. It is my storage HD. I always have an operating system HD and a storage HD.
As already mentioned here in the comments... Computer Shopper magazine (which was roughly the size of a phone book) used to have pages and pages of tower cases in the back of magazine (for home computers, business computers and of course, servers!). I'm keeping my tower case so I can build a RPi cluster inside it one day. 🙂 Thanks for another great video Chris.
As I mentioned to another commenter here, Rosewill Challenger is the modern version of the old PC tower with tons of drive bays. If you ever need to expand, I'd recommend that one!
Your videos are awesome and educational! Gaming towers pc will be here for a long time but i agree on the other markets like offices it will be less and less. Reason for why it will stay here for gaming is because of being able to switch parts, better cooling, choosing what quality parts you want for like cooling and powersupply which is very important! A lot of the factory built PC have bad cooling and they cheap out on important things sadly for gaming.
Thanks for this. It is possible to change parts in smaller form-factor PCs like Mini-ITX and NUC Extreme. :) And there is no reason that tower PCs will stay for gamers. The history of computing is one of change, and of common standards and form-factors that make hardware economic across a variety of application areas. Gamers want to game, and if this in future can be achieved most (cost)effectively on other form-factors, this is what will (largely) happen. Certainly the gaming tower will be around for some time (5 to 10 years perhaps). But longer term I would be staggered it if remained the dominant gaming form-factor.
No doubt ATX will go the way of all things, but probably not as soon as some might think, for a couple of important reasons. More bangs per buck straight out of the box than any other form factor, and cheaper & easier (especially if you're a ham-fisted oaf like me) to repair/upgrade. ITX has been around for 20 years, it's only now starting to make its mark on the home consumer market. On that subject, the average tech user has long been led by the nose by marketers and advertisers selling their kit like fashion items. Check out any tv ad for any laptop you care to mention. In a 30 second ad you'll get 27 seconds of how slim and sleek it is, how lovely the case looks, and how many colours it comes in, and practically nothing about what's inside it.
This video is very accurate for the general market of consumers, who all prefer convenience above all else. However, as long as there's a group of super nerds (like me) who enjoy tinkering with their computers, upgrading them and/or changing the components, the tower PC market will remain alive. Great video as always!
This reminds me of an argument I heard at one point in time. Someone was proclaiming that 'Python wasn't programming because it didn't have programmer-controlled garbage collection - therefore, it was scripting and NOT programming.' Keep this quote in mind. The reason I bring this up is, back in the day, building your own micro-computer meant literally wiring a breadboard. Full control of every resistor, every transistor, every length of wire - within some parameters since your end-goal was usually a specific micro. Then, building your own computer became buying individual expansion boards or modules (in the case of very early 80's desktop devices, sometimes warts stuck out of every hole on the main case) and plugging them into a main machine - with all the issues that came about because of incompatible hardware or misconfigured devices (IRQ, DMA, I'm looking at you - I haven't forgotten the crashes!). Then, it became easier - now, it's all Plug-n-Play or equivalent and no more worrying about which device was on which IRQ address. Soon, it will be about case color and which PC-on-a-chip you want in that case. And if you are the one to place that chip in that case, you've 'built' your own computer. But is it any different to call the last section 'not really' building a PC? Is it the Python of computer production, a 'scripting' of home-built PCs? Is it so bad that we're getting away from the modern equivalent of breadboards and wiring diagrams? Time moves on.
People predicted the demise of the desktop PC all the way back in the early 2000s, and it didn't happen. People will always need them for creativity, production, business stuff, and gaming. There are some things you need a big keyboard and mouse for, as well as multiple monitors. And the ability to swap out expansions like GPUs. I love my smartphone but I would not want to use it for all of that stuff. I use it for pictures and media consumption. Also never use Apple as a roadmap of the future. They're the reason smartphone manufacturers keep taking away vital features people use.
The user statistics presented in this video more or less prove that the demise - not the complete extinction - of the desktop PC has already occurred. When was the last time you heard a kid ask for a desktop PC? For most young people in the world, particularly those in developing nations, the smartphone is now their their only computing device. In more affluent countries, the next step is usually a tablet followed by a laptop (with a smartwatch often thrown in). Nowadays, few people can even comprehend the need for a device that is not fully mobile. While being very user savvy, most people are blissfully ignorant of the technical specifications and capabilities of their devices. The vast majority buy their devices on the basis of model, brand, and styling alone. They have no real understanding of what is under the hood or why it matters. They are easily manipulated by sales staff. Just ask 10 people how much RAM, storage, and what processor their device has. This is precisely why trendy integrated devices will dominate the future marketplace. Even though they are always teetering on the edge of financial insolvency, I cannot convince my granddaughters that their iMacs and iPhones are expensive fashion accessories. An old decrepit dinosaur like me can buy a cheap midrange smartphone, simple tablet, basic laptop, and a performance desktop PC; all for less than they spend on their smartphone alone.
@@jasonjames4254 Over here at my college, most of the students in the CS program have built their own PCs (probably for gaming, lets be honest). I think it is only a trend for young people that aren't technically literate, which is still a large chunk.
you also have to consider things like the Intel NUC didn't exist in the early 2000s, its impact is not to be discounted, as well as other peripherals like USB-C hub docks, that let you even connect a full array of standard Desktop PC peripherals to even a smart phone or something like the Steam Deck Obviously for Bleeding Edge gaming performance, the Desktop PC isn't going anywhere but will become a smaller and smaller part of the market as technology improves which allows newer "lower end" hardware to run games that used to take a full graphics cards(also as games technology plateaus and no longer requires higher and higher end tech), in a much smaller package. it is only inevitable
@@jasonjames4254 I don’t think the statistics prove anything except that major manufacturers have shifted more towards laptops than desktops. It says nothing about people building their own PCs, which has become far more mainstream in the last decade.
@@Hornet135 Perhaps. But you may hang out with a niche crowd. Every time someone mentions their new phone, tablet, or laptop, I ask them about the specs. Not one person I have ever asked has known the specs on their new device. Do an experiment and ask 10 random people who are NOT involved in tech what the specs are on their various devices. Ask them how many desktops they have built. Ask them if they prefer a HDD or a SSD, SSD or m.2, etc.
Hi, very interesting video. I'm sure some of the space in the tower is there to allow cooling - which with more efficient ARM chips is less necessary. Plus with the rise in rental of processing power in the cloud accessible from many different types of device, we are heading back in some ways to the dumb terminals connected to a mainframe paradigm. Whether that is good or bad I don't know.
I would argue that the centralization of processing power, with the obvious potential ease of data monitoring, as well as becoming a primary point of failure in multiple ways, the terminal - mainframe model isn't particularly attractive. Some malicious person / group / state could more easily target centralized data centers for attacks of various types, be they data-ransom or destruction, or simply crippling competition by dealing with network infrastructure or power supply. I think the wider distribution of processing power and data retention offers a more difficult target to bulk vulnerabilities than the mainframe model both in terms of physical and data security for individuals. I'm sure that others will argue as proponents of the mainframe model, but those proponents should remember that when buying computational power, money is not an infinite resource. Patience in waiting for computer intensive tasks will have a number of benefits. I think that ideally, a mixture of the models will emerge, where people can buy computational power when most needed, but still have their own systems for routine use is likely to be most effective.
If you do something that is latency sensitive, the cloud is the worst thing you can use. Google Stadia has proven this with other platforms just like it.
I don't think it will ever be a one or the other situation. As an engineer I love the fact that I can spin up an Amazon EC2 instance to test an internal app. Back in the day I would have had to buy a server, find space on an existing server, or find an old computer somewhere which needed updates and may not have the hardware config that I needed. I wouldn't give up my personal computers though. I'll always have a Linux or FreeBSD machine running somewhere. I think having the option for most people is fine.
@@mjc0961 It'll be a mix. Remember the rental model allows the flexibility to adapt to near-term demands. Virtualization allows one to move things around easily.
Nowadays PC cases have a lot of "wasted space" where one would mount hard drives or optical drives due to the fact that modern components are running hotter and most people don't really need an optical drive or many hard drives, so modern cases leave the main bay mostly empty to make sure case fans can push and pull as much air as possible. However, some case manufacturers nowadays try and strike a balance between airflow and functionality, so that 5.25" bays and 3.5" mounting can still be achieved with modern airflow oriented design, for those who require such functionality in their cases.
While I've enjoyed (and also had my share of stress with) building my own PC twice, I personally wouldn't mind if they make PC's the size of a Rubik's Cube the norm - in fact, I'd welcome it if it were still powerful enough to edit 4K, 8K, or whatever video. In other words, it should have the same or more powerful CPU/GPU/RAM/storage capacity as an advanced traditional tower. The main thing I hope never goes away is the full-size keyboard and mouse, or something very similar. I HATE to type anything on a smartphone or tablet, as I am ALWAYS mistyping on those damn touchscreens. I have a smartphone, yes, but I consider it a necessary evil for on-the-go rather than my preferred go-to computing device. No matter what technology ever comes about, human dexterity is what it is, and will never change. I need large, tactile interfaces and a large enough screen to really do my main work and be comfortable.
What if something goes wrong and it's impossible to open, service and replace the faulty part? Do you just go buy another complete unit setup everything from scratch and download all your data etc. from the cloud.
I have many towers and all were at bargain basement prices, full of RAM and modern processors. My favorite "new" type of desktop PC is an RPI 4 with as hat for a bit more connectivity and a slick case capable of standing up like a "min-mini" tiny tower. Obviously not quite the power of the modern day PC, or for that matter Mac, small or virtually non-existent (ie Mac) form factor. Technology advancements aside...gimme a tower any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I hope that the space in a tower soon gets filled with a BATTERY that can run the machine for a short time unplugged, but especially works well as a UPS and power filter to avoid spikes etc. One of the laptop's strengths is not worrying about unplugging them, as the battery takes over. No desktop has ever had this feature unless an external UPS is added.
Another great video Chris, thank you for this. I build as well, and I'm trying to get my son into building his own, but I also enjoy pushing the limits with hardware into smaller form factor builds.
Well, this is how it's always been, has it not? At first we had gigantic computer mainframes that stretched from wall to wall, and eventually we got PC desktop towers. Now we have smaller towers and mini PC boxes. When it comes to computers, everything gets smaller and smaller over time. Remember all those video game cartridges in the 80's and 90's? Compare those to a Nintendo Switch game. Although they look completely different and are more like a micro card, they are technically still the same kind of thing. This is a phenomenon that will continue far into the future. These modern day mini PC's may look tiny now, but 20 years from now they'll be looking unnecessarily huge. I can already picture them someday being less then half the size of the ones shown at 8:16
I just bought a new tower PC earlier this year. In the past, every time I would buy a new PC, I'd just buy the whole thing (sans hard drives), including the case. This is because there were many innovations in case design for better airflow, cable management, hard drive slots, etc. Sadly, nowadays this innovation has largely stalled, and it's still possible to buy a case released to the market 7+ years ago as a new product. Same with PSUs actually. This does signify that tower PCs are becoming more niche. However, ironically, it also makes them easier to upgrade. For a power user like myself, buying an entirely new PC without a case used to really feed my FOMO, which added even more to the cost and complexity of the purchase. Now though it was much less painful, giving this old giant "full tower" case a new lease on life. I can foresee using it at least until 2027, but likely even longer than that.
Sometimes it's just cheaper and easier to leave a working system working, rather than recycling the case, even when the case would be adequate for the new build. I suppose it depends on the value you place on the old system -- whether it's a backup, or a pile of parts. If you've raided it for parts on the new build, there's no consideration of maybe keeping them both running.
I too think 'big tower' when I see PC mentioned. Being a producer/composer, I liked the fact 'PC's' were highly hardware configurable at the get go. I had dreams of a computer controlling patch bays, automating MIDI mixers, playing hardware and software simultaneously in perfect sync. etc. And all this was achievable - the same as building your own dream house or car from scratch! What soundcard is best? What's the best MIDI bay? Yamaha uses FD, SCSI, and SD, while my Roland uses a Zip drive - should I get those on the tower as well? And of course, cost of software to do everything - hopefully smoothly. So what started as a $800 PC with good RAM and HD and all, turned into a $8000.00 box with all the add ons and software et al. So I held off and got a laptop to do 'generic work'. Lo and behold, its soundcard was decent, the cheap 'virtual studio' actually was pretty decent, the VST's and DX instruments played well, and with a USB audio unit hooked up, I had ample MIDI, 1/4", and RCA ins and outs to choose from. Though the laptop was $2000.00 at the time, the music extras may have only been $200-300 for it. YET - I still fantasize of one day getting a tower that would rival all other computers, synthesizers and studio's and make them envious! LOL
I discovered your channel recently. I like the content, and personal style of presentation. Best wishes for every success. From London, Ontario, Canada.
Greetings! Now that I have actually watched the what seems like an Explaining Computers meets Explaining the Future video, I agree that sadly, the desktop PC is on the decline. Full size towers are getting more and more rare and "desktops" are getting smaller and smaller. While I do have a few "micro form factor" devices, I do and will continue to keep at least a of couple of desktop sized PCs available for my data. These are easier to keep and replace multiple drives for RAID redundancy and backups. I do have phones and tablets but these are mainly transactional devices or chat devices and keep little to no important data. I also believe in "owning your own data" and keeping it local and not "in the cloud" which is difficult to do if using handheld devices exclusively. I share some data in the cloud but nothing personally identifiable if at all possible. Regarding your comment on business PCs, I am seeing ever increasing numbers of my clients using VDI and thin clients where the user basically has a kb, mouse and monitor with a small box attached to the back and when they logon they get their company's default base image so they can get their job done with access to a network share for storage. This has caused a drastic decrease in physical desktop usage. These customers are also increasingly NOT installing ethernet in new construction and relying solely on WiFi (shudder).
Unless they can reduce the power required by high end CPUs and GPUs or shrink high wattage PSUs, midi towers at least will still be around for gaming and video editing PCs! Also small form factors are a lot harder to cool restricting CPUs and GPUs that can be used. But I agree for most office and work applications the form factor will reduce or be integrated with the monitor (as these do not need to be upgraded piecemeal, like gaming PCs when on a budget). You will also see more use of APUs (Accelerated Processor Unit) combining CPU and GPU on one chip (usually sharing available memory between them).
Born in the 70's I fear my fate is the same as the tower PC ;) However, we still have some more years in us. Mr Barnatt, I appreciate this channel and the years of entertainment you have provided. Started in 1983 (age 10) with a TRS-80 for around $399 my first experience with layaway purchases. Then I entered the IMB clone years with a FastData 486 for around $1500. The last tower low spec gaming pc, I built in 2018 for $430, my last purchase this year (for turning 50) was an MSI Katana 15 with an I7, a low budget gaming laptop $899. In between was a second hand TRS-Model 100 laptop all the way to Raspberry Pi single board computers. Plus many consoles from Atari 2600 to PlayStation 4 (for my kid).
My friend built a PC and in building his PC he found out that it’s actually a little bit of a thing where some people actually build their hard drives with lots of empty space so having a big PC tower thing probably won’t go extinct but they are getting very empty
I don't see a "big wasted space" as something bad - more space for effective air cooling, as I do play games sometimes and often leave my PC on to participate in distributed computing projects on BOINC, thus it's under 100% load most of the time. However, I do see your point - smaller PCs do indeed make sense, it's been years since I've done any upgrades to my PC, on the other hand, mine is a bit non-typical having a lot of HDDs in it occupied by dozens of games installed out of hundreds I got (mostly through launchers like Steam, Epic, Origin, Amazon, Battle NET etc), many of them taking up a lot of drive space.
I've been in I.T. for over 43 years. I had a Commodore Vic-20, a Commodore 64, an Atari TRS-80 a PC 8088, 80286, and so on. I remember feeling like a KING when I got my brand new 10Mb Seagate hard drive! Let's be honest, everything about this channel looks cheezy: Graphics, sounds, and even Chris' haircut. But still, this is by FAR the best channel if you want to learn about computers. And that's exactly why all the "cheezy" and old style is just perfect in this case. You don't get distracted by all the flash and gizmos. You're not lost with 10,000 words with 9,950 being useless! The speed of the narration is perfect, the explanations clear and simple, and most important... the content is very accurate. Cheezy you think? I'd say well thought of and pretty smart... I consider that anyone getting into I.T., whatever the field (Networking, programming, etc...), should watch those videos. This channel and PowerCert Animated are a must!
Great video as always :-) I have moved to the ITX mini standard instead. It is still a standard, but it is small factor case, I love it. You can use standard graphic cards, and put in M.2 SSD's in it, and Harddrives and BR/DVD drivs too if you prefer that media. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with all of us 🙂
if ever they make more external interfaces that allows interconnecting components outside small powerful pcs (like that gpu card connected outside a laptop) it could be, let's see. i like the small form factor by the way, makes the work desk less clutter
The only way to get a GPU connected outside a laptop is with a 1x PCI-E cable, and that only runs the card at one 16th of it's potential throughput. You may as well just use the laptop's onboard video, or use a USB-video dongle, if you're entertaining THAT nonsense.
@@BlackEpyon well, if you are "sure about the future" that interfaces will not change for its 1/16th of throughput. necessity is the mother of all inventions. my sentence uses the "let's see" and thus open-ended mr. wise.
Small form factor with just a few expansions will look like a bloody mess of units and wires! Trust me, i have been there and now i'm back to the tower PC again, a slick look and no cable mess.
Speaking for myself, as a home user, I have both tower and laptop PCs. For stationary home use I prefer towers for more cooling, storage and peripheral options. Otherwise, another great, informative presentation. Best regards.
I expected this to be about the history of tall tower PCs, like PS/2 model 80 and the ATX cases that had 50% extra height for more drives. Common characteristic is filling the physical space between floor and desk.
I disagree with Tower PC's being endangered. They may be so in the office space, bot not in the gamer space. You can't stick a RTX 3090 into the space in a NUC, Phone, or Tablet. While mobile devices are great for when you are on the go, most of computer you mentioned are nothing more than content creator/consumer devices meant for people who only browse the web, view, edit or upload videos or play basic Facebook browser games.
@@ExplainingComputers that is true, however it isn’t practical for the vast majority of gamers, who prefer to have the space in a tower PC, where components aren’t crammed together. Airflow isn’t an issue either compared to an ITX/small form factor build.
@@diablorojo3887 that is definitely not true, and besides with the amount of PC gamers there are and how much the market will continue to grow, full tower/mid tower cases won’t be going away or become endangered. Oh and also, it’s not specific to gamers either. Content creators, HEDT enthusiasts, AI and ML workloads. So even if these are just portions of the PC community as a whole, it’d be a fallacy to say that all of them combined wouldn’t be enough to “un-endanger” the tower cases.
I have 3 towers and 3 compacts. I will keep the towers for sure because I can upgrade the parts easily. I started with 2 gig memory and easily plugged in 16 gig when the cost dropped. Same with the hard drives to SSDs as the cost dropped.
I just purchased the Intel extreme 12 i9 kit and I am very satisfied. It is super compact, fast and still allows configuration and component replacement. Installation is a bit of a fingertip acrobatic exercise and it would be nice if some unused cables could be easier taken away, because space is really sparse. But all in all it is a very elegant solution.
As long as Intel makes the compute unit easily available for repair/upgrade, this is a perfect compromise between Apple‘s highly integrated but extremely unrepairable / non-upgradable approach and a fully customizable machine.
The only thing I miss is the optical disc drive. I am still old school with CDs and Blu-ray’s and will keep it that way to not be a slave of streaming. But it now has to be external.
Thanks for this comment, which is most appreciated. It is great to have practical feedback from a user of an i9 NUC Extreme.
@@ExplainingComputers and thank you for all your videos.
Perhaps, to go a bit deeper:
The really cool design of these extreme NUCs is the short path from the cool outside world to the hot components and out through the back or top again. The graphics card cooler fans are just behind the transparent right side, so that air does not have to travel through an intermediate enclosure as it happens in most large cases.
Also having the power supply within the casing eliminates an external power supply hanging around. In a minimum setup, you would only need the power cable and video connection. Everything else could be wireless. Very clean.
However, the NUC extreme will not be able to fit just any graphics card. I believe it is best with slightly shorter cards (two fans), since the full-length cards will seriously clash with the tailor fitted cables that run around the power supply. Also, mine brushes against the power supply rather tightly, leaving no space for any cable to squeeze in. Any card that is thicker than the perfect two slot width would clash with the case cover and/or the power supply, i.e. not fit in.
Next, the power supply is 650W only and can only support 375W to the card. A few cards on NUC Intel's compatibility list require more power - not sure why they consider those. To run at sub-top-performance? Why then pay so much money to begin with, instead of going for a lower grade card that you can use to its full potential? A 3060 card or equivalent seems perfect. The Ti versions are likely already too beefy.
And finally, with the current M2 SSD storage available, max internal storage is limited to 3x4TB. Which is a lot and high speed altogether ... but some might want to safe larger media files to slow discs. These would then be external drives. And a NAS is certainly a proper choice here.
In summary: The NUC extreme is a beast, blazingly fast, silent, super space efficient and cleverly laid out. It is a great device for scientific or development work, a more than excellent gaming machine and easily maintainable.
But if you need top notch graphics cards, or even want to run with multiples, if you need all your storage in one case or need even more RAM, you will have to go for a big case. And that is OK. NUC extreme is compact, maintainable power. Everything else is tower, laptop or small NUC.
Finally, during initial setup I used the Intel integrated graphics only and it was superfast and smooth already. I believe that many home users and professionals, who are not into gaming, don't need a laptop but might want a multi-screen setup, can easily live with one of those smaller NUCs. The compute unit alone is very capable. And they can still swap components. Especially the M2 storage is only held back by what is currently available.
So yeah, satisfied and for many the way to go.
Being old-fashioned is better than being "no-fashioned!" I am old-fashioned myself. I still use a desktop microcomputer, and would not care to exchange it for anything else. Also, I have a color laser printer, and a label printer that prints on laminated label tapes. Otherwise, I would not care to buy a laptop computer and carry it outside of home with me.🙂
@@captainkeyboard1007 you are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with a microcomputer - and neither with a large case.
And funnily enough, Intel just released the next generation of the NUC extreme and it goes more and more towards mini tower again. But once I am at that size, I would probably go with a good old fashioned simple case.
After 15 years of using laptops only, I switched over to a desktop PC last year and couldn't be happier. It just feels like the real PC experience. Nice big monitor, full sized keyboard, good external speakers and upgradability. I don't need portability at all because my smartphone or tablet is good enough for that.
My attitude exactly. I already have a portable computer with my phone. I can get more desktop for the same money as a laptop. Plus if I'm actually doing real work, a desktop with multiple screens is far superior to any laptop or mobile device.
I had to move to a laptop when my son and I moved into an RV. But I chose a refurb Dell Precision M6800, a very nice business-class Laptop that can support 3 monitors (and at least one of those at 2K), and is fully customizable (even the graphics card can be replaced).
However, 2 years ago we moved back into a suite, and I was looking forward to the day when I would switch back to a desktop. That time came, and I'm very happy to finally be able to type on the keyboard of my choice, and use a main monitor larger than 17" (I was already using a second monitor with the laptop, but now I can replace the laptop screen with a larger one also). It's also nice to be able to put in card readers, extra usb ports, more robust DVD/BluRay player/burner, and removable drive caddy. And it looks nice to put lights inside the case also!
One thing I miss is having a battery backup power supply, so if the power suddenly goes out, the computer doesn't turn off. I guess I will have to invest in a UPS eventually.
i fell you.i was doped for a month or so with my first new gen high end pc
Fully agree with you. Multiple monitors and CPU's running at twice the speed of their laptop counterparts speak for the desktop machines. I also need to point out the ergonomic advantage. Keyboard, Mouse and Monitor can be flexibly positioned to the most comfortable positions. This makes you more productive.
Yes smartphone for mobility and a desk top will last longer for stationary use.
Mark my words, 10 years from now tower PCs will still be going strong. Enthusiasts who want to build their own systems aren't going away...
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That is definitely true. We are not going anywhere, but we are a very small part of the market I think. So the feasability of offering components for this small market will be questioned. (sadly).
I hope your right. But it's the component makers who have the final say sadly.
@@JeremyGreysmark But it also a highly profitable segment. Make cases for an OEM and earn $10 a case or so. Make it for retail and make earn $30-$50 on a case that sells for $150.
I am a retired computer system administrator. Back in the 1990s we were told by our vendor that we would need 6 TB of disk storage for our SAP systems. We calculated that this would require 50 ft (about 16 meters) of cabinets to hold the 10 Gb disk drives. Recently I bought a 5 Tb external disk drive to add to my desktop PC for about $130 US. I can't stop laughing.
Progress is indeed amazing.
I replaced my 2Tb hard drives in a Home Server with ten 16Tb drives. The 2008 server copes with five boxes of 8 drives but the more recent card only supports 5 drives on eSATA but 8 via USB. Windows 10 is limited to 26 drives if separately assigned.
I remember the old floppies and the storage media in between. Now with the USB sticks, I have to chuckle seeing the size of the stick and the amount of space on it (128GB for example). What I love about it is that mine is storing notes from three years of college (assignments etc) and now, I'm using it for my portfolio. With the external drive I have, love how I can store it all and not be overwhelmed with a pile of floppies.
Lol...I was a tig welder who worked at a place that made all the mainframes for the Coyote's, and Road Runner's in the 80's for a bunch of companies that are long gone...
I just watched a video about how during WW2 the US designed and built the B-29 in a couple of years. This aircraft was original in most of the important systems from it's pressurized cockpit to its new engines. When we put the effort, desire and cash into a project we can make huge strides in technology very quickly. I guess that's why I'm disappointing at the political Luddites who want to stop us from using technology when we have the ability to use technology to solve almost any problem.
Hopefully not. A future where PCs get disposed when parts like CPU, RAM, GPU and storage that are soldered on break down/fail is not a bright one.
I agree. But sadly I think we are headed down that route. And to some extent, we are already there, with no many computing devices being phones and tablets . . .
@@ExplainingComputers I can understand that for phones and tablets given space and size constraints.
However, considering desktop PCs, even those small form factors have more than enough space to have individual parts replaced, there should be no logical reason to solder on the CPU, RAM and/or storage unless the intention is obviously planned obsolescence.
Soldering the CPU, RAM and/or storage on desktop PCs is a dirty move. Hopefully, countries impose stricter regulations on these things to reduce the possibility of having to dispose a PC just because their soldered RAM/storage/CPU fails.
@@ExplainingComputers no joke - 2014 I took one of the first NUCs and installed xenserver 7 - 2012 server (Full domain controller) a windows 10 best and a windows 7 pro install. 4 different operating systems and all worked perfectly in the size of a box slightly bigger than a pack of cigarettes'. It's 2022 - they're doing some suppression everywhere to artificially keep physical computers and it's industry of waste alive.
A lot of tech is already like that. Nobody will remember.
Maybe by then we will be able 3D print cases? If there’s a demand to build your own PC, someone will provide the capability.
I have wonderful memories of searching through Computer Shopper magazine, comparing mobos with chipsets then ordering the components to fit within my very limited budget. Of course putting them all together was the best part.
That's what I'm gonna do in a few months!!
Still got My 20 year old Dell Dimension sitting opposit Me in My front room, it's not been switched on in 3 years.
ahh... the good old days when you could easily repair a computer
I still have an old copy of that magazine that I keep for nostalgia! 👍👍
@@HOLLASOUNDS CMOS battery is probably discharged...
The tower PC is sooooooo much better for working on video, graphics and music and even gaming. I see them continuing to get better and easier to build.
I see the opposite happening. I think the PC will just continue to evolve like it always has. It's flexible, it allows for good airflow and heat management, its easy to maintain and upgrade, often offers the best bang for buck, and the best performance. Over the years it has continued to improve on and lead in all these areas. I see a lot of people caught up in the M1 hype coming back to tower PCs now.
One thing that RISC processors really help reduce is the amount of energy used, and thus, the amount of HEAT generated, which necessitates that MOST of the interior space of a tower these days be used for those massive fans and heatsinks (or fancy water cooling systems). If we could get all computers to use RISC rather than CISC processors, and integrate advanced graphics that were as powerful as their PCIe counterparts, and use M.2 SSD's all the way rather than hard drives or even 2.5" SSD's, then we wouldn't need those big towers anymore.
@@ebinrock if the processor can't compete with price, the tower PC will remain.
The primary driver on why tower PC are still here is because it is still more expensive to own a compact PC with market equivalent parts.
good heat management -yes ; upgradable - yes ; (price/ )performance benefit - yes! However: dont expect the 90% average joes out there to think the same way you do. They have other priorities such as practicability and simplicity. They are satisfied with a gtx 3060 running at 80° in their laptop. They like the ability to store away their device and not have it waste/dominate significant space in the room.
At my work (public administration) and my relatives' work desktop pcs are being replaced with laptops or thin clients(which dont have the benefits of the ATX form factor you had mentioned) It adds to the trend of desktop components becoming more expensive.
The "influencers" don't game with laptops. they have RGB blinding gaming setups that keeps the PC tower alive and to be honest more exclusive.
That's *exactly* what happened with me, and the nice thing was, this time, thanks to PCPartPicker, I was able to design my own, purchase my own parts, keep track of everything, and build it on my own. Can't ever beat that!
You simply can't beat a tower case on airflow & cooling options.
The meshlicious (and its many clones) can match it in just 15 liters.
Yup! 🎯
,... Not to mention it's cool LED lights and G-FORCE graphic card insignia on full display! ✔️✔️✔️
Christopher, I can't tell you how happy I am to see a new video from you on this topic. Your presentations have always been methodical, logical, comprehensive, well-articulated, and (refreshingly) slow enough for me to follow. That's compared to the many channels which seem to be in a race to CRAM-THE-MOST-SENTENCES-PER-MINUTE, editing out even the narrators' pauses to _breathe,_ and allowing me no time to mentally digest one point before they've moved on to the next!
I've owned five desktop computers, with my most recent now being well behind the technology front line. But it's still very useful, because at purchase I loaded it with once-cutting-edge hardware, have updated it a few times, and now run Linux Mint as you do.
I've fantasized for years _building_ my next one. This video has really updated me on the form factors and technology. While it has made the idea of a self-built somewhat less appealing for me, it has also shown me some upsides that will help me to let go of that dream if that's what I end up doing. A very nice overview and guide. Very well done.
Thanks for this. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Both graphics cards and CPU coolers are getting larger. There is no way small computers could house them. That's why I think that tower PCs will remain, just their specs will change. Even consoles are getting larger: both the PS5 and the Xbox Series X are larger than their predecessors. And also, it's fun to build you own tower desktop PC from the parts you yourself have chosen and bought each one separately where it's the cheapest. Where would I house all those drives?
Everything shrinks eventually.
@@SpaceCattttt I know, wait until you reach my age!
Actually: The TDP of CPUs is dropping (Even performance level CPUs, especially Ryzens) and coolers are actually getting more compact, generally. Unless someone is overclocking. Example: Ryzen 5 5600x has a 65w TPD. Compare that an older performance CPU, like the AMD FX 8350, which has a 125w TDP.
@@creativestudios3d yeah, i can see that. my Ryzen 9 3950x is rated at 105W and with my OC settings, I've taken it to 125W @ 4600Mhz.
edit: and that's with a custom water loop using a 240mm rad
@@creativestudios3d You are wrong. FXs were the outlier. 5600X uses 65 watts, but 7600X uses 105 watts. Look at wattage compared to chip sizes. New smaller dies use more energy than older larger dies. Compare Comet Lake to Skylake or Raptor Lake to Alder Lake.
The tower PC is never going away as long as high performance is something that the end device market demands. More computational power demands more transistors, more transistors expel more heat, more heat needs more cooling capabilities, and more cooling capabilities takes more space. Small form factors can't expel as much heat, and therefore will never have the number of transistors required to compete with larger ones in terms of performance.
Apple's M1 was built on a 5nm node, a generation ahead of other micro devices on the market, and while I wouldn't say it is a bad product, we should do well to keep in mind that is was out performed by some of AMDs chips on the 7nm node. It was only out performed because of the size and power draw of AMDs cores, so just think about what a 5nm chip would be like with full desktop cores. You don't even have to imagine, because new chips from AMD were just announced with 25% performance uplift and x3d models with up to 30% more performance than that are coming. It's probably going to be around 50% average performance uplift for a ton of workloads when all is said and done!
The point is, Apple silicone cannot be a generation ahead of it's competition in terms of manufacturing every single time and bigger die sizes will always outperform smaller ones making towers the only option for maximum performance.
IMHO, Apple M1 is overhyped.
Apple M1 works as a portable device (power usage) but it can't compete with a tower. In short, the Apple M1 could throttle (even with light usage) and it is a big nope for anybody that need the most of the power.
Apple silicone shines in laptops. I’d take my pc tower any day of the week as my main rig though.
Agree!
Tower PCs will have much less market part in the future mainly because of cloud computing. Gamers (and probably big part of professionals) will use some kind of subscriptions - access to computing power from the cloud. I will be one of those dinosaurs still trying to build my own rig as I did in the last 25 years 👍
@@Sprytny_Roman If everything went to subscriptions big business will makes us pay through the nose for what we enjoy doing, a plus one for building our own rigs though
CPU coolers and GPUs seem to be getting bigger not smaller. Now even keeping a high performance nvme drive cool can require a decent amount of space and a heatsink. Dell were selling very small office based PCs over ten years ago and I imagine for low end usage that will continue, but I don't see larger cases going anywhere soon.
I can tell you what keeps me coming back to Tower PCs. For me, it's that I don't want a mess of cables and USB Hubs to hook up everything I want. The alternative to a Tower for me is to have to deal with an external GPU, an external Sound Card, and an external optical drive. Sure, a laptop or a NUC is fine if all you want is the base functionality of an M.2 and some USB sticks, with integrated audio and video. But it doesn't take much to get you back to the situation where you need a Tower PC. I will be pretty disappointed if in the future I can't have a box with everything I want and have to have everything spread on my desk with a USB hub because Laptop users decided that's good enough and I have to make do. Some of the more expensive laptops can rival a desktop, but everything is so tightly squeezed together and it's too hard to open them up and replace fans, etc. Also, you just can't run things as hot in the first place because there's not as much room for cooling.
For editing and media creation a Tower is a decent option, try editing 4K video on a NUC with 8 gig RAM and external USB drives.
I totally agree. It almost makes me want to buy couple of towers before they are extinct😪
@@robredzI have seen cheap mini PC less than $200 in Aliexpress with 16GB DDR4 RAM dual channel and 1TB nve SSD on Jasper lake CPU which can easily edit 4K video. As if this is not enough, you can install 1-2 TB SSD inside as well, costing around $50.
@@kamolhengkiatisak1527 Good luck running Pinnacle Studio 25 on that PC. It's laggy even on my 3070/Ryzen 9 5900X with 32.GB RAM and 4.TB M2 SSD. Also. Forget running Topaz, Waifu on any 200$ PC. Recommended RAM for Video editing minimum 64.GB RAM, but many struggles even with 256.GB RAM today.
Uncompressed 4K video drains RAM as hell.
also, the anti right to repair and planned obsolescence from many big tech companies (which just care about maximizing profit in every possible ways, even dirty ones) also push those towers to be an endangered species
Agreed, sadly.
New laptops are all but sealed internet only junk ! No DVD ,no easy way to change out the battery ! Not all place one take a laptop has power or internet . The main purpose of one. Forced to use cloud based apps turns it into junk for a camper.
@@George196207 Sad it's start to see them on entry-mid level market. Heck, even some gaming laptop has soldered RAM for absolutely no reason.
In that case people will boycott those tech companies which do not see value in the right to repair and who still support planned obsolescence. Probably we are going to see laws against this malpractice.
Lol. People don't care.
Thermals will largely dictate the size of cases, at least for high-end PCs that require liquid cooling and substantial fans/air flow.
Thermal efficiency. The less power needed for more stuff done.
But very likely 3.5 and 5.25 bays are going to disappear from the front of cases completely. If your lucky you will find a 3.5 mounting close to the PSU. Heck my case right now can not use the single 3.5 HHD mount if using a big PSU and RGB stuff in the case XD
And laptops with there fans makes the small size a problem due to the noise. But a compact tower with multiple big fans can cool 700w and still be decently quite. No laptop can do that really.
If it is 2010 components or 2023 components be dammed. A tower can handle 700W but a laptop is going to SCREAM trying to do the same trick. But looking at Apple there is a reality that performance is good enough now to not be needing fans to deal with the thermal efficiency losses for everyday use. Even some light gaming! Sweet.
No fans is the best. But towers are not going anywhere fast. Just hard drives and all readers are DEAD. Truly DEAD.
@@TheDiner50 I think that enthusiests that want 3½" and 5¼" front accessable drive bays in the future will end up having to scratch build their own cases.
Gamers who requier a top end graphics card and liquid cooling if they don't have a requierment for external drives don't need a tower case they just need a case where they can get air flow on the radiator(s) with the MB itself being ITX.
Tower PCs will never become obsolete because of the military factor. Our military grade non-stop defense computers uses the same principle used by security safe manufacturers that uses copper sheathing to defeat the oxy-acetylene torch (4000° F (2200° C) by having sufficient 99.99% pure copper thin fins of sufficient size and shape and we double their size and number above their engineering requirement. Military people find it amusing that civilian desktop computers are not up to par with our military grade non-stop defense computers in terms of heat dissipation and dispersion and the use of convection processes.
@@darthvader5300 That is a niche example and doesn't represent the huge numbers of the population for general computing. But your post is fascinating!
Yeh but the tech is now leaning toward optical processing with radioactive powered mpu`s.
For such a thing to happen, GPUs and cooling solutions would need to be miniaturised. Even AIO coolers take a significant amount of space. I think this could be solved with small form factor PC cases that incorporate vapour chambers, radiator fins and a single fan into the design, along with standardised smaller GPU sizes.
Edit: For more powerful PCs, anyway
a desktop celeron is 65watts, a mobile i7 is 17~35w, the solution in simple
@@diablorojo3887 Right, right...I mean...good luck GAMING in that.
I'm not entirely sure that's right. At the moment 4k 120fps is more or less relegated to the top end of GPUs, but a lot of people have already decided that they're fine with 1440p and don't really need more. As 4k becomes easier and easier to hit, I'm not entirely sure that people are going to feel the need to buy a high end, high power GPU to upgrade past that 4k 120 mark.
And that mark will become easier and easier to hit with each successive generation. Even with the upcoming generation of GPUs, it's been leaked that Lovelace will be anywhere around a 4k ~150 - 200 FPS device, and RDNA 3 somewhere around 170 - 210 FPS, in the high end, which I think a lot of people (particularly those who bought a 4k 120hz TV) will decide is unnecessary, which means they might buy a lower end SKU that uses less power.
What happens when a low profile card hits a high refresh rate 4k output with more or less maxxed settings? I think a lot of people will end up thinking "why do I even upgrade?" when considering a larger, power guzzling monster of a card designed for a resolution that they can't even see a difference in.
What happens when an APU hits 1440p high settings? 4k high settings? A lot of people might just decide that it's not worth the bother of adding a GPU at that point.
It's easy to look at the current generation of computer hardware and think that this trend of one-upping one another with increasingly less power efficient designs is going to keep going forever, but it does well to bear in mind that we're probably about to hit a soft wall in consumer demand as more exotic scaling solutions for GPUs appear, IMO.
well, the current line of gaming consoles are small and powerful enough and consume relatively very little power, the miniaturization already happened but not available yet on desktop apus
for itx, a good small tower cooler exist, almost a decade old from companies like noctua
not everybody likes liquid cooling
@@diablorojo3887 Good luck gaming, live streaming, rendering videos, compiling code, basically anything more demanding than dicking around on Facebook.
I know I'm in the minority, especially considering "the average user" but laptops are too limiting for me. My previous computer was a laptop (which I chose for various reasons) and it ended up being very non-portable due to the spaghetti of cables connecting external devices: two monitors, keyboard, mouse, USB hubs, external drives (because the internal storage isn't _nearly_ enough), speakers, etc. My current machine is a desktop and I'm so much happier. Plus, desktop hardware can be upgraded. I've already upgraded the (internal) storage, RAM, and GPU in mine.
Laptops make more sense than desktops for an office environment. They need to be taken to meeting rooms, for example, or when we need to work from home. Imagine how the last two years would have been if everyone had desktops in the office and suddenly needed to switch to working from home full-time.
I don't disagree with your argument that desktops will become more rare, but I for one hope they don't disappear entirely.
I agree with you. My laptop has basically one function. It is used as a clock with the clock screen saver! I use my desktop about 99.9% of the time, even though I have a laptop and two tablets plus my cell phone.
I'm sure you're aware that "enterprise/business grade" of laptops use "docking stations"???...and with the implementation of USB-C, v3.0+plus makes the laptop more expandable? You do realize that you are able to get external cases to house high-end graphics cards which you can then attach to your laptop via cable...right?🤔 But, yes, I'm on your side as far as an All-In-One unit Case that houses everything you need!!!
I agree. I hate laptops and my company forced me to get one. It has a docking station, which still uses plenty of cables. I prefer an SFF format to replace my oversized tower.
@@fookingsog Yes, but the enclosures can be the price of a GPU and most laptops now tend to get less and less repairable.
@@fookingsog My latest notebook is a higher end version of what my daughter uses as a work computer. She gets to run rather hefty spreadsheets, so hers is no slouch.
I have four USB ports, three USB-A connectors, one USB-C. I have eternal SSD, I need an external card reader because the microSD card reader built in is of no use. An SDXC UHS-II reader would be good for almost everybody, those wanting microSD support just need to not lose the adaptor that comes with the cards. I also need to read CFExpress cars, fortunately no longer CF cards as I sold that camera. I could have cards from up to eight cameras to process. Extreme, perhaps, but there it is.
Informative, calm and even-handed. I really appreciate your style.
Thanks. :) Not everybody here seems to agree . . .
The one thing I always say when it comes to the idea of the full tower going away it is that gamer's and creators will always want as much power as possible. So as the tech gets smaller it just means that they can fit more and more into them. Not to mention that with most cases these days having a clear side, the tower has become as much a aesthetic art piece as it is a usable piece of hardware. Something to be said about full tower with dual reservoir custom loops. For more general use, yes the tower is almost gone already.
Example of a literal work of art
ua-cam.com/video/t03rmc-prJo/v-deo.html
The worrying thing imo is the upgradeability of all of these new small form factor PCs with soldered SOCs that just simply cant be upgraded, including storage which Apple, in particular, charges a lot for. I think the progress with M1 and M2 is really impressive especially for laptops, however it removes the freedom to repair and improve our own hardware, meaning we have to buy a whole new product from them to get upgrades.
Very true.
TBH, unless you upgrade your CPU every single year, with the rapid changes in sockets & motherboard capabilities (eg faster WIFI, Ethernet, busses, new USB 4.1 gen 2x2, etc) it is pointless to even worry if the CPU is soldered or not; you'll want/need a new MB along with the new CPU.
@@tombyrer1808 Let say the product only have 8GB rams, but soldered. You want to upgrade the RAM to let say 16GB. Which mean you sell the laptop and buy a new one?
Impressive for throwing out money
@@tombyrer1808 I haven't upgraded my amd mobo for a couple generations now so that point doesn't ring true. Also what if you want to upgrade to a more powerful cpu within the same generation but you already have a fully capable mobo?
It will be like smart phones where they are designed to be replaced entirely by the time the next model is released.
I love seeing how much you were into the video. Almost singing there at the end. :)
Things have changed dramatically in the last two decades. You don't even need a PC for most "casual" use cases. So, it looks like PCs in general are mostly used by computer enthusiasts and gamers. But since those groups of users use high-end CPUs/GPUs which require good cooling solutions, the big-ass tower cases aren't going to become extinct.
the way i see it, the people who did not use a computer regularly 20 years ago are the same ones that "don't need a tower pc" today.
it's hard to go by without any computing capacity nowadays, but a smartphone will suffice for their usecase.
I think gamers will keep this tech alive for the foreseeable future. Games will only get exponentially more advanced and it’s not like a laptop is going to be running games and VR like a PC can.
@@OShackHennessy You can't even buy a game anymore without internet ! That alone blows chunks !
@@George196207 I wish you hadn't said that. Chunks is my dog's name...
What's considered causal today will not be causal in the future. It is likely you will need more powerful components to keep up with the demands of the casual use of the future.
I really hate this notion of having to kill off one thing for something else to exist. I also remember the days of when the laptop will kill off the desktop. It happens with programming languages as well, yet the oldies (and still goodies as far as I am concerned) are still around. Like with everything, it depends on usage type. I deal with programming (compiled languages), 3D modeling/sculpting/, 2D artwork, game dev and I still don't even consider a laptop for serious work in all of those fields combined. There are sacrifices made with mobile abilities. I do see more of everything being a service etc, especially with Windows and Mac, even their OSs. I remember the dummy terminal days, at least with the old days of not being connected to a WAN, there was more security compared to now with the always connected mentality. There are some markets that just won't exist in the same manor following a dummy terminal method, or at least not as well. If this happens, it will be more because customers are complacent about it happening compared to anything else. I don't think it is a viable future with Linux as that tends to go against the ethos of Linux, but for those that are on the other OSs, yep, I can see that easily happening.
It's not really killing off, they're just going to be less prevalent. People are still going to need powerful hardware. But for most normal people it just makes more sense to go for smaller computers.
Killing something is a fancy way to say that it will become unpopular. Which is a fact, not a need.
Do you want to try that last sentence again? Linux goes against the ethos of Linux?
Laptops will not kill off desktops because CPU and GPU manufacturers will never stop improving their products and the size trend is upwards for those components not down, and the biggest domestic PC market is gamers who demand power.
@@mjc0961 I think you missed what "that" is. "That" is in reference to this particular future that is being proposed goes against the ethos of Linux, not Linux itself.
The growth for Tower PCs will come from the gaming space. Apart from being able to bundle better and faster components the space inside combined with tower cases with transparent side panels allows gamers to showcase RGB ready internal components. The Tower PC is part of a showcase installation… the NUC option does not offer the same volume of showcasing space for components….
One of the things I've always loved about tower PC's is the ability to mod them... To make them look unique and/or add functionality and features. For example, my last case was a Zalman Z1 with stepper motor controlled top flaps to stop dust getting in from the top. I modded it around the idea of a stealth fighter jet. I built a little control panel that was right next to my right hand even though the case was on my desk. With it I could change the case lighting from RGB to UV, desk back-lighting on two brightness levels, it had fan control knobs, power and reset switches, a switch to open and close the top flaps and I put a 5.25" card reader/USB/eSATA thing into it too. Made it really look the part with adhesive letters to label each part.... I loved that case but when my kid starting walking, I knew her head would come into contact with it some time soon. So I had to get rid of it in favour of a mid-tower, which I have obviously modded!
Modding a NUC....? Cut a hole and put another fan on top. That's about it, lads!
There's a large variety of tops available for NUCs (Pro range) to expand their functionality.
The board is completely removable to do as you see fit with the chassis.
I'm modding a couple of NUCs at the moment. They're an interesting challenge. Very much like modding ITX chassis, but for a 4x4in form factor.
Note: there are different product ranges, including Perfomance and Extreme (shown in video), Pro models (with vPro support), Element (Celeron/Pentium variants of Performance), Compute (SBC embedded type using a proprietary slot in design to a mainboard), and laptops.
Manufacturers have an incentive to lock you into their proprietary hardware (as small as possible, stuck together with clue if necessary). You have to pay them to upgrade every 2 - 5 years as the planned obsolescence cycle dictates. This is, once again, convenience vs. freedom.
Similarly, look at how the Raspberry Pi has an enormous range of third-party cases, mods, expansion "hats", and rival SBCs with compatible form factors and GPIO pinouts.
You might not be able to easily desolder the CPU and RAM chips the same way you can swap socketed parts but NUCs and other mini PCs don't have to mean the death of moddability.
@@saturnGEEK I wasn't aware of that because, as you can probably tell from my original post, I've been pretty narrow minded about NUC's thus far! Looks like something to have a little look into though! Thanks mate!
@@wereoctopus The thing I love about SBC's is the fact they've been made purely to be used for anything the maker wants them to be used for leaving it completely open to moddability whereas PC modding started kind of as a niche thing because people got sick of beige boxes and ATX boards need to go into ATX cases (unless you're a badass and make your own housing for them, which I'm not badass enough. Yet.)
When I was talking about the lack of moddability on NUC's, I was thinking purely from a perspective of limited space. I admitted to Swilly that I have been narrow-minded, and I'll throw my hands up but it comes from the idea that I can throw water-cooled loops, fans, lights, PSU shrouds etc etc inside an ATX case and I can chop holes, add extra grilles, throw an Arduino Nano and a couple servos, probes etc inside to make other things happen etc etc. The space to play with is the bit that grabs me about towers. I won't badmouth SFF PC's or SBC's because they definitely have a place in the environment but for me personally, I like having the space to play with.
Now... a NUC with an external control panel, like the one I mentioned before would be bitchin'! Have the NUC hidden away, carefully run the cabling from the controls and external IO. That's something I'd like to try :)
What I believe we need is a newer Standard. PC's are all about modularity and choice and giving that up is going to be a tough sell for companies. I look at my desktop and it isn't empty at all... The AIO, fans graphics card, along with the PCIe USB expansion card have filled the case up. I actually hope miniaturisation will occur, but right now, we just have diversification, with Mini PC's being the niche. Great video.
I totally agree -- and wish I'd thought of this and said it! :)
given the power requirements of new ryzen CPUs and upcoming GPUs it will ultimately be the cooling solutions that play a considerable role in dictating size and I don't see that getting any smaller yet
I own and operate few desktops and laptops. All this time still can't get used to laptop's keyboard. I probably will buy a mini PC / NUC sometime in the future but it still defeats the purpose of miniaturization - I will still have a hard time using it as mobile platform anyway. So still, laptop for mobile, PC for serious work.
I agree. I just went on vacation and I lugged my Desktop PC with me. It was quite heavy with all the stuff i have in it, but I wasn't going to settle with my laptop for a whole week to game with. The condo room had a large HDTV so I used that for my monitor. I would love to see a new smaller lighter standard thats still modular.
Go look at 80s computers for what PCs were like before VLSI and smd was the norm.
SOC ie system on a chip is very good for lower spec low piwer PCs, but not for powerhouses.
My Tower is still standing!
In fact, I'm into my 4th DIY tower build...and using it every day.
Not only is it a tower...but a Super Tower, I think it was referred to. It is extra tall.
I'm using a lot of advanced musical software and hard-ware connections, so I'm quite unwilling to give up on this form factor.
I love your videos...Please keep it up!
For the third point to happen on "The Tower Falls" segment, they are going to have to come up with some very creative and very consistent cooling solutions, especially for gaming and graphic content. I just don't see that happening as soon as 2030. I have yet to see a gaming laptop outlive a gaming desktop. Aside from that, you also have to take in consideration the ability to upgrade parts which is not the easiest thing to do in a smaller form factor.
Tower pc will indeed be the best for a long long time because of cooling and just choosing what you want to be inside.
I do think towers will become more niche over time, but I don't see them going away completely. Noise issues alone are enough to keep me from having a system as powerful as my desktop in a laptop or mini from how fast the fans would need to run.
Noise is an issue for me as well; I narrate audio books and a laptop gets too noisy. I will keep on using my tower PC to narrate.
My small form factor computers, my Mac Mini, my HP ProDesk are a lot more quiet than my tower. althoug I've been working on quieting the latter with component replacement in fans and power supply.
@Joe Twist is that really the apple chip you're talking about? Even with their resources they can't solve heat.
What is keeping the big box PC alive is that high performance CPUs and Graphic Cards are creating more heat than ever before, which needs a big box to allow air flow and large aggressive cooling systems both of which take up a lot of space.
Yes, and all of that is driven by the development of ever more demanding software and monitor technology. Virtual reality will also be a potentially huge game changer :)
In the end "tower" PCs are still the *_best bang for the buck._* Even without all the expand ability they are better performers for less money than any of these others. Apple products will always be expensive for their lower performance. Things will get smaller but best bang for the buck won't be changing any time soon. And high performance computers still produce heat and tiny computers (NUCs, laptops, etc.) are either slower or get really hot. Excessive heat reduces lifespan. (RPi is a different category.)
I cannot agree about value for money.
Value for money depends purely on production volume, and as these units become ever more niche they will lose any economy of scale and so will become very unaffordable for most people.
@@Hfil66 so long as gamers feel the need for more power they're going to be running hardware that needs a spacious fan-filled box to keep cool. Gaming isn't going to become "niche." Hard to say what will happen with the tech after ten years though.
@@2ndavenuesw481 You are talking about hard core gamers. The kind of people who will spend £2K on a graphics card are not going to working about spending £4K or more on the rest of the PC, but I would contend that this is even today a niche market.
What I would contend with is that you will not be able to buy a tower PC for under £4K (plus inflation) within a few years (while most people are still looking to pay under £2K in 2020 prices for a PC), and that alone will scare anybody who is not looking for the creme de la creme in PCs. That pretty much defines a niche market.
@@Hfil66 what a fantasy
@@Hfil66
Even now, artists still require relativity high end hardware. Eventually, waiting for Blender to finish a full day render while the laptop is hot enough to cook bacon starts to get tiring. Desktops may get smaller with MiniATX and ITX, but they aren't going away
HP did a good job of making a PC smaller & easy to service with models such as the HP Elite 8300. Components such as the hard drives and CD rom drive could be changed very quickly. It was also easy & quick to pull apart for removing dust & cleaning inside. In comparison most laptops are still a real pain to pull apart to clean fans or replace any component.
Today I saw a downsized Dell tower. It's maybe 2/3 the size of my old dell tower and way lighter. I'm not a computer person but am just mentioning it.
As usual, a concise and informed video Christopher. I will be one of those that maintains several tower cases, but also use the much smaller machines. As a builder I tend to lag the market and am gaming on a Ryzen7-1700x and GTX 1660 combo and in a nice, quiet, cool, easy to work on tower case. The machine I use as an office PC is a Jetway Industrial mini-ITX with an i7-3720QM in a 260mmx180x80 aluminum case, fanless, silent, cool. The machine we attach to out TV for streaming, a NUC6CAYS. What we older chaps call Horses for Courses.
Horses for courses indeed.
I love towers and their customization options. They can become a beautiful piece of art and I personally hope they will never disappear
They wont vanish completely for a long time, but they clearly will become more and more niche.
Thanks for a very good summary of the current status of PC form factors. I have built my own computers for the last 30+ years. Until recently they have all been towers (except for the first two - 8088 and 386, which were 'desktops'). It has always been the case of doing the research, building it and then sometimes upgrading - you get the benefit of learning along the way. Gaming motherboards still appear to be evolving, but they may well favour the smaller form factor as you have indicated.
As someone who looks forward to a fresh build every 5-6 years like a kid on Christmas morning, the idea of a world where swapping or fixing my devices can only be done with a heat gun and shim card is very saddening. I'll be building my third tower in January next year and I certainly hope it's not my last.
I will cross my fingers that you get to towers 4 and 5! :)
I'm not inherently against a transition to the smaller computers, so long as we still have the ability to build and customise them.
i think that the perfect example of that is the pi itself, it has all the basics but the storage, no case in case you want to make your own
the problem is expansion or upgrades, none available
perhaps pi in the future can do that
i do believe that itx will evolve alot thanks to amd apus at the level of consoles, leaving you the spave for a pcci express or two devices to be added
One big consideration... software, and software requirements. A tower is easier to upgrade over time.
As someone who has both Raspberry Pi and Micro Form Factor Thinclient for desktop uses, I am going back to the idea of building my own tower PC. You cannot really beat them for upgradablity.
Easy to upgrade and easy to maintain
Size and cheapness of hardware will mean it will not be an either/or but multiple pieces doing more dedicated jobs leaving the generalities for the main PC.
The only thing which can compete with the tower PC in terms of upgradability, is a suitcase PC, which is like a flatter tower PC with a lot of riser/extension cables for the components. For example, the dedicated GPU would not be perpendicular to the motherboard, but parallel to it, sitting next to it on a frame. The storage would also be either on the motherboard, or on the same surface as the motherboard and dedicated GPU. The power source and battery would be the same way. And all of that would have a lot more airflow than a laptop, and comparable to the airflow of a tower PC, depending on it's case. Though this would require the motherboard to be shipped with a waterproof coating to protect against spilling and condensation during transport.
Also, I hope we will see HDD-sized dedicated GPUs, namely 2.5" and 5", depending on the slimness of the device we want it on, and the space we have free. For example, we might choose a 5" GPU and deal with the extra weight, or we might choose a 2.5" GPU to have a lighter and/or smaller suitcase PC or add more fans or extend the heatsink to make it fit in a 5" slot. The 2.5" GPU form-factor would also fit very well in DIY handheld PCs, which would be somewhat similar to the steam deck, but would allow you to choose the screen, the controllers, and most of the other parts inside, including the power supply and battery.
At the moment I have a SFF build and have packed the most in there I can, there is no way towers are going anywhere when more powerful cards like the 4000 series are getting release every few years, these cards draw a lot of power and need high end cpus to fully utilize them, which calls for larger coolers and power supplies.
Arm is changing that
@@JamesCook76131 arm? :o
With a lot of the newer systems, you actually need all that "empty" space for either air movement or liquid cooling systems to keep these high power-high temp components from overheating and frying. Even a lot of new SFF (Small Form Factor) computers have a liquid cooling system, look at a case like the Louqe Ghost S1 where builders were placing a minimum of a 140mm AIO to keep the CPU cool.
I don't see towers going totally away as gamers and some graphic artists want the large storage capability that many smaller computers don't provide. As a graphic artist, I want to have multiple storage bays for SSDs as well as an M.2 on the motherboard for the OS.
I'm definitely not against the "Fall of the Tower" -- Small form factors are very nice if you're building a mid-range machine with moderate cooling needs.
I would however strongly dislike a loss of standardization. Laptops tend to have very limited performance & lifespan due to thermal management issues, and they're hard to repair and recycle. The Mac Mini and Intel NUCs are brand-specific, proprietary form factors. There are a lot of upgrade/repair paths which are made impossible, like switching to an AMD CPU for example. This also means that when a component fails, you're likely going to create more e-waste than strictly necessary. For this reason, I do love the mini-ITX standard. Despite the limited size, mini-ITX cases tend to offer a lot of flexibility.
I see itx slowly replacing atx in the coming decades.
tower won't fail, upcoming trends will give small form factor a LOT of issue with cooling, its literally a new space heater generation with hardware according to talk on it. That means larger cases to cope with it
i'm not saying t here won't be stronger small form factor computers than there is now (esp in oems)
But the reality is that the higher end (and more sensible) systems WILL be at least mid tower if not full size towers or larger.
After all linus troll tips PROVED that a top of the line small form factor pc is barely viable to build much less run safely in a real world environment. It was Toasty even during his test, give it a little neglect with dust or pet hair or smokers and that can much more easily go up in flames and smoke.
Facts he conveniently only hinted at and neglected to mention or warn about.
Not saying it isn't a risk even with more sensibly sized towers but more air flow and a more proper ventilation setup means it'd be able to take more before such a thing happened.
And that was with CURRENT hardware, with the upcoming generation it'd probably overheat pretty fast if it'd even fit (probably would require a larger case at least) They've compared what the information about it would be like and basically it isn't viable at least with that case.
@@patg108
It is my suspicion that small form factor for next gen would very likely require custom cases, and by the looks of it, custom coolers if they are to remain performant. Blowmatrons can only go so far
Mini ITX are a decent solution for many
My company, employing mostly engineers and CAD technicians, about 5 years ago completed a switch of all employees to laptops from desktop towers. I think enthusiasts will remain on tower computers for a long time and I'm ready to build myself a new one for home use but I also use a home laptop frequently. However as home users have migrated from desktop computers they have migrated to using multiple monitors which is a problem with most laptops. At my office we use docking stations to connect external keyboard and multiple monitors to a single laptop, but docking stations are somewhat problematic. If home computers migrate to small form factor they will have to integrate more external connectivity than laptops have. And for home use a small form factor PC will need to be cost competitive and currently they are not. I've looked at currently available small form factor computers and concluded that I can build a tower computer of similar power for significantly less cost.
While I know I am in the minority; i've always enjoyed the look of a fully loaded tower case with every expansion bay filled. Its a goal I always strive for with every build; the latest containing two graphics cards (Not SLI but for rendering and more monitor outputs), capture card, sound card, m.2 storage, and 10 gig networking. Takes me back to those IBM PS/2 Model 60 tower behemoths.
The tower case market may shrink however as long as there is demand for local high performance computing its never going away completely.
True.
And I tried to get ahead of the curve.
Chenbro RM24100. If desktop pc is going away, and servers are still made and built, better go get a server.
I grew up using tower PCs and now own one myself. I'd be sad if tower PCs as we know it ends up going away. But I guess technology has to keep moving on up... However, the fact that it could live on as retro tech gives me a bit of hope as well as a white hair or two. While tower PCs will end up falling out of favor for smaller, sleeker PCs, at least it'll live on in the retro tech community just like how the VCR and a lot of old gaming consoles have been.
You know what else could be considered an endangered species? PCs with disc drives. There are still some in towers but with laptops? A lot of new ones don't have them. Awful if you're someone who still adores DVDs like it's a spouse or have software that comes on discs. Sure you can buy a USB disc drive but to me, that sounds like something the cat will knock down and break.
By the way, I apologize but the Mac Pro looks like a cheese grater. A $6000 gigantic cheese grater. I wonder if you can actually use the front to grate some Parmesan? Now that's what I call mac and cheese. 🤪
I miss my old Server Tower I once had. It was 1m high case fitted with full size ATX, twin CDR, Twin 1Gb SCSI 10,000rpm HD, Voodoo 3DFX.... I loved those days. Now I still have a tower but much smaller, it has RGB but to be honest it's stuck under the desk
I had tower PCs and moved to open air bench a couple of years ago. Open air is so much quieter and easier to maintenance.
@@deanharrysmith718 I remember how my parents had tower PCs made by Compaq (rest in peace). I can't remember the specifics now but one of them ran Windows XP and had a LightScribe drive and the other ran Windows Vista. Believe it or not, the latter chugged on for several years before kicking the bucket!
There was also a time we had two other towers; one of which ran either 95 or 98 and the other which ran XP. One of my earliest computing memories actually involves me trying to run some Bob the Builder PC game that was meant to run on 95/2000 on XP to no avail.
Now, as for my current tower PC, it's a low-end HP one running Windows 10. It's good enough for drawing and running casual and older games, but I can see myself upgrading to a more powerful computer in the future.
@@allansh828 Open air computing sounds very intriguing but also a bit risky.
Then again, I can't say crap about taking risks with computing because one time when I was younger, I was using my laptop while drinking some good old Sunny D on my bed and I accidentally spilled it all over the bed. It missed my laptop all because it was on top of a USB laptop cooler that I lost the cord to, but still have even to this day.
It’s an improvement over the “trash can”
I've been hearing this for the last 10 years or so.
Enthusiasts and gamers will always want to build their own PCs. As long as the market is there for components, the companies will continue to provide them.
They are custom building DESK with pc's built in them etc, so your right gamers will always stay to custom builds. Its even becoming popular with youtubers now to have the best cleanest most expensive pc right?!.
I've just bought one! There can't be many household devices that are so flexible or fixable! (it's predecessor lasted 9 years before the motherboard died.)
Or as reasonably priced. The video missed the fact that so many of these small devices with space for a video card are extremely expensive, and buying an external PCIe chassis for those that don't is also extremely expensive.
The important thing to remember is, as small as the chip dies may get, you can always have more of them, which will still require a larger case.
I doubt we'll ever truly see the end of the ATX tower PC - speaking as someone who built theirs, having room to expand and having easy access to all the components is in itself more than enough reason to keep the form factor, and that's a position widely held by enthusiasts, too. For the time being, ATX towers also benefit greatly from better thermal performance owing to either having airflow or the space to mount liquid cooling, further widening the compute performance gap.
Chris, one of the key reasons I think desktop computers will stay around is ergonomics. Phones and tablets are horrible on your back and wrists (especially if you have carpal tunnel). A ergo keyboard connected to a NUC or similar computer will be a major market for a long time.
There's also flexibility. There hasn't been much change since PC97 came out, but it didn't really change much other than specifying colors for a lot of the common ports and that was about the time that you started to see buttons that were electronic rather than mechanical, so you could have a computer that could switch off without touching the button.
Personally, I do think that I'll probably go back to the '70s era of computing in terms of using a thin client for much of my work as the room I work in is rather small and gets hot rather easily. A small computer like a Raspberry Pi with a monitor, keyboard and mouse with the rest of the computer in a larger room where it's not baking me would work perfectly well. There's even off the shelf KVMs out there that do just that. Or, you can use VNC or RDP to do the job in a more DIY style.
I imagine there would be improved support for connecting peripherals. E.g external monitors, keyboards, mice. Samsung Dex works now but it's not perfect right now.
I truly hope so, no keyboard and miniature dumbed down displays don't inspire you to do anything.
I agree that machines will be used this way, but they might as well be the same laptop you pack up and take to class or work. There are advantages to having two computers (and I'm glad I do), but most people would prefer to have just one. I have the big tower PC but it may well be my last one unless I decide to build the next one for silence, in which case I'll appreciate a large box. And I have a hacked Chromebook running Windows 10 that may as well be a NUC, because it has puffed up _two_ batteries now and this time I'm not replacing it. But before that, it did double duty as a laptop 2% of the time, and a set top box 98% of the time.
I don’t believe towers will go away for a while. They may not be in the mainstream market but may fall to Professional Workstations still and Gaming Markets. GPUs for the gaming market are still 2 and 3 slots, tons of heat and still power hungry. The smaller PCs will probably be in more end user homes and offices where they are more for client systems rather then Heavy Workstation. I understand that you can off load to a virtual server but the cost of that infrastructure is expensive.
gaming is just getting bigger. if for that reason alone this form factor isnt going anywhere
@@dasit6034 unlimited rendering in the lambda process will do gaming in when fixed wireless dominates in 2023
@@dasit6034 yes, mobile gaming
I'm a curmudgeon. I am not giving up my 5.25 bays or optical. HDDs are still way more long-lasting granted you don't try to dribble them like a basketball. I still have old IDE HDDs that are still going strong. My line in the sand is set. If I can't tinker and fix it myself I don't want it.
@@dasit6034 Exactly this. The gaming PC market is the largest and most lucrative one. Especially because the workstation and gaming markets are sort of intertwined and workstations often use gaming PC parts. Towers aren't going anywhere, probably ever. You practically need one if you want to easily install a good watercooling setup.
I recently did a machine learning course and my 2019 tower PC handled all the computation requirements nicely. Dedicated GPU meant that geometric progression calculations were so much more efficient than running the same calculations on the CPU (CUDA+Python). Even so, some games can get the fans whirring along, so good luck with lag trying to play PvP.
A factor not mentioned in the decline of towers are the NAS boxes proliferating. A major reason to have a tower was to house all those hard drives. That function is now being split off into separate boxes.
A very good point.
I have a couple of tower PC's, been handy for extra space for drives
Desktop sales may be lower because we can upgrade them and often do. A good motherboard generally goes through 3 or 4 video cards before we upgrade it to a newer motherboard to fit the bandwidth of our video cards potential.
back in the early 2000s people were predicting the end of desktop PCs... they were wrong then.. and they are wrong now. I believe there will always be a contingency of people who will opt to have a computer that they can build, maintain, and upgrade w/out external support.. and that IS the Tower PC. Most people that use Apple computers wouldn't know the difference between a ram stick and an M.2 drive if you showed it to them.
I hope you are correct. Note that here I am not predicting the end of desktop PCs, but of tower PCs . . . and sadly there is growing evident for that. What some people want to do rarely dictates changes in the market or technology. :(
Went to help Mum clean out her garage the other day, saw some old tower PCs still there. Brought back so much old childhood memories. There's certain charm about the retro look and feel. As they say everything old is new again eventually.
I remember when Tower pc's made (ok, I'm not sure what they were called) horizontal PC's obselete, there was a magazine called computer shopper that was literally an inch or more thick. Tower PC's are more user customize-able, though, you may not need an optical drive, HDD or floppy drive, but definitely the video card and being able to put peripheral cards in the slots for more USB ports, SCSI (if that's still used) etc
my main problem is still that though yes you can get laptops that have a lot of processing power and I/o ports they cost so much that it still makes sense just to build a tower and if you are a power user or the tech guru of your friends and family I almost always find uses for my tower that would either take forever on a laptop or wouldn't be possible/would require me to buy adapters and standalone hardware like a drive bay.
When someone wants a new *_laptop_* I'm often the one trying to convince them of the benefits of a desktop instead. A large amount of laptop buyers don't even use them as portable computers but they just sit on their desk instead. Same with people buying "all-in-one" computers...
I recently upgraded to a Mini ITX desktop and I admit it was a huge step forward from traditional ATX, largely due to the amount of space saved and the complexity of cable management. I very likely will not go back.
There never be an end to the tower PC simply because people like to build computers themselves and will not settle down for pre-built (mostly) crap😉
Pretty similar to my final conclusion . . . :) But I think the opportunities to build will sadly decline.
@@ExplainingComputers Hopefully they won't. The biggest part of the fun, at least for me, is spending hours comparing and selecting the parts that fit my budget. And after the machine is built, I get a big sense of accomplishment. I am sure that many people feel the same way and won't buy it with the laptops, tablets, etc. which are a nightmare to maintain, upgrade or simply repair.
@@bobbysup I do feel the same 👍
That will eventually not be the cheaper option, and there won't be enough people willing to pay extra just to pick components.
@@GamesFromSpace May be. However, quality components are not cheap now too. Yet, people buy them simply because they enjoy building PCs. Also, when you build your own PC it is unique, that justifies the extra expense😊
I'm old school in that i prefer tower PCs, but then I am 57 so I guess that's to be expected. The space inside isn't wasted in my view, as it allows for plenty of airflow for cooling as well as expansion. Being an electronic musician i use a lot of storage for audio files which can be very large. Maybe not as much as a film maker, but it's a lot. Not been too fussed about graphics accelerators until recently as now there is a new tecnology that uses GPUs as DSPs, so now I am interested.
In fairness, my current laptop is more powerful than any PC I have ever owned, with SSDs and buckets of RAM, but i still prefer a tower in the studio.
My first PC was 286. I remember it not being AT or ATX. I think it was called ST or XT. It was very heavy. My monitor was non color monitor, so I had only black and yellow colors. The graphics card was CGA. I believe that towers will stay with us for quiet a while. There is no other option when it comes to gaming PC's with watercooling and lots of noisy fanss. People are still going to use them.
I believe you're probably correct.
However, there's a big benefit to the larger box: thermals.
The big issue with ITX form factor gaming PC's at the moment is heat dissipation in high performance applications. Once that problem is solved, we'll probably see smaller form factor PC's become the norm, as you said, in the 2030's more than likely.
If designers like the ones at Apple weren't so damn consumed by the perfect aesthetics of everything, maybe they could include more ventilation slots all over the chassis (which might actually look cool if they give it a try), and that way the heat has plenty of spaces where it can go.
lol itx cases now can have same and better thermals than normal atx towers and most common itx cases can even support liquid cooling up to 360mm
@@ebinrock Yea because ventilation is the main issue with apple :|
Also I normally use more than just 1 slot. The M.2 wifi adapter can be replaced by an E-key slot, but the other (RME interface) cannot. Sometimes you need some expansion but not a full ATX.
I kind of miss an ITX build because of the cost for a new case and power supply unit.
But I would love to have one once I save up enough and my current hardware had done 4-6 years of service.
Then I can pack them up, travel between countries and set them up like a mobile base.
It would be a console killer.
Interesting times for sure, but even as an enthusiastic owner of an M1 Max, I think the desktop will continue to evolve and adapt much like your example of the AT to ATX evolution.
Deep dives into the M1 architecture show that while the integrated components are a significant part of it's incredible performance per watt, it isn't the silver bullet. For example, the on-package memory is set up in an 8-channel configuration of LPDDR (which I believe has been called "the poor man's HBM") which is what allows it's ferocious memory speed. Likewise, the integrated GPU also relies heavily on this shared memory, which is why heavier projects that would saturate a PCI bus do much better on the SoC architecture. And of course, there's the other parts of the M1 architecture that are glossed over, such as the fixed-length instructions, lack of 32-bit instructions, and AArch64's own proprietary extension of the ARM ISA.
I certainly agree with your point that the full tower desktop will become more niche in its application, however this doesn't necissarily mean the death of internal expansion. We still haven't seen what the ARM competition has or will come up with (many of which have stated their intention to build M1 competitors). Every other processor company has a different business model to Apple, which means that one specific point of leverage that Apple has cannot be afforded to their competiton: die size and transistor budget. Apple's M1 series have very large die sizes and incredible amounts of transistors, which are only sold in Apple computers. The cost of manufactue of which can be mitigated in the sale of the computer as a whole. The competition doesn't have this luxury, as they sell their processors to OEM's and consumers directly, meaning that the processor has to have a profit all its own.
As an extension to the fact that we haven't seen the response from the ARM competition yet, the use of an SoC architecture doesn't necissarily prevent expansion. Another Apple example: The Mac Studio does have the SSD controller built onto the SoC, but has two socketed drives of "dumb memory". As well as the Mac Pro tower, which uses the T2 chip as a memory controller as has 2 drives of "dumb memory". As for things like PCI lanes and such, we know the M1 architecture allows for expansion through Thunderbolt ports, which are extended off the PCI bus. (The lack of graphical expansion being related to the architecture simply not being set up to communicate with any external graphics and having no drivers even if it could). Indeed, for the M-series Mac Pro it's already rumored to have two PCI expansion slots.
It's not a great leap of logic to think that other competitiors who may adopt an SoC architecture for better efficiency would still have room for expansion. In the current x86 space processors with on-processor graphics already have the capability to be expanded upon with graphics cards. If NVidia gets into the SoC ring as they've stated their intentions to do so, I think they'd be keen to sell OEM's and consumers two products instead of one alone. I'm sure Qualcomm or Samsung would also be keen to be able to "outsource" the powerful graphics to AMD or NVidia rather than have to develop their own SoC to compete with them.
I can certainly see socketable RAM dying out though, that's just a direct casualty of unified memory. But I can't name the last time I've had RAM fail on me, so that's neither here nor there. PCI expansion is just too ingrained in professional applications to go away completely (a non-graphics example I can think of is AVID cards for music recording.)
And as a final note, Apple themselves tried the whole "non-expandable, small form factor, high performance desktop" in 2013. It flopped so badly they made a public apology in 2017 and released a tower in 2019.
Great post. :)
I doubt socketable ram will ever die. No one wants to buy a new cpu just to get a ram upgrade. That is ridiculous, and furthermore there are probably limits to how much unified memory you can cram onto the chip. Good luck getting 2 Terabytes of ram on an SOC.
Always Enjoy your Delightful PC Builder's Insight. Thank you
Miniaturization and integration certainly can do some great things for performance, but it also makes everything more obscure and closed to the user.
Even with the current desktop paradigm we have plenty of invasive and restrictive features built into the hardware, affecting our security and privacy, which damage our freedoms. I see these future ultra-integrated monolithic machines not only as a detriment to consumer freedom (being able to choose and combine components into a custom setup), but also to general human freedom (not being surveilled and controlled by a state-corporate global tyranny).
I wish that even in that coming market, perhaps a new set of open standards will spring up, even in the required smaller form factors that the industry seem to be going for, to allow the contiuing customizability of consumer level computers. Or that, at least, new players will pop into the market and offer freer alternatives to the offerings of big corporations so you won't be under their control as much. Well, that's assuming the world doesn't plunge into the new feudal slavery dark age that no small ammount of powerful people seem to be bent on getting us to, in wich case, there won't be any options at all...
I suspect we're going to reach a point where consumer level computers are good enough that they only get replaced when damaged. We're getting pretty close. I had my last PC for about 10 years. I upgraded the hard drive, ram, and processor and a friend's kid has been using it happily for three years now.
Very true.
i5 3rd gen has enough processing power for most basic office users today. For the seniors market segment, we're already there for the entire segment. And that CPU is 10 years old now. Unless the "You will own nothing and be happy" thing happens, I can easily see a day when your LAPTOP is more likely to be older than your CAR.
I think we have been there for years. XP is an excellent OS which is both customizable and powerful. True I now use a Linux box for browsing and frequently use either my 'phone' or tablet to watch UA-cam on my 'telly' but no one has come up with a good reason to move to anything else other than 'X is new.'
@@KnowledgeDriven It's up to us all to ensure that "You'll own nothing and be happy" never happens 💪
I had kept on carrying over second hard drives to the next computer that I built. One hard drive, a SCSI HD lasted 12 years. Right now I have one hard drive that is probably about 12 years old now. It is my storage HD. I always have an operating system HD and a storage HD.
We enthusiasts will keep the tower alive. Airflow, airflow, airflow
As already mentioned here in the comments... Computer Shopper magazine (which was roughly the size of a phone book) used to have pages and pages of tower cases in the back of magazine (for home computers, business computers and of course, servers!). I'm keeping my tower case so I can build a RPi cluster inside it one day. 🙂 Thanks for another great video Chris.
As I mentioned to another commenter here, Rosewill Challenger is the modern version of the old PC tower with tons of drive bays. If you ever need to expand, I'd recommend that one!
Your videos are awesome and educational!
Gaming towers pc will be here for a long time but i agree on the other markets like offices it will be less and less.
Reason for why it will stay here for gaming is because of being able to switch parts, better cooling, choosing what quality parts you want for like cooling and powersupply which is very important!
A lot of the factory built PC have bad cooling and they cheap out on important things sadly for gaming.
Thanks for this. It is possible to change parts in smaller form-factor PCs like Mini-ITX and NUC Extreme. :) And there is no reason that tower PCs will stay for gamers. The history of computing is one of change, and of common standards and form-factors that make hardware economic across a variety of application areas. Gamers want to game, and if this in future can be achieved most (cost)effectively on other form-factors, this is what will (largely) happen. Certainly the gaming tower will be around for some time (5 to 10 years perhaps). But longer term I would be staggered it if remained the dominant gaming form-factor.
No doubt ATX will go the way of all things, but probably not as soon as some might think, for a couple of important reasons. More bangs per buck straight out of the box than any other form factor, and cheaper & easier (especially if you're a ham-fisted oaf like me) to repair/upgrade. ITX has been around for 20 years, it's only now starting to make its mark on the home consumer market.
On that subject, the average tech user has long been led by the nose by marketers and advertisers selling their kit like fashion items. Check out any tv ad for any laptop you care to mention. In a 30 second ad you'll get 27 seconds of how slim and sleek it is, how lovely the case looks, and how many colours it comes in, and practically nothing about what's inside it.
This video is very accurate for the general market of consumers, who all prefer convenience above all else. However, as long as there's a group of super nerds (like me) who enjoy tinkering with their computers, upgrading them and/or changing the components, the tower PC market will remain alive.
Great video as always!
This reminds me of an argument I heard at one point in time. Someone was proclaiming that 'Python wasn't programming because it didn't have programmer-controlled garbage collection - therefore, it was scripting and NOT programming.' Keep this quote in mind.
The reason I bring this up is, back in the day, building your own micro-computer meant literally wiring a breadboard. Full control of every resistor, every transistor, every length of wire - within some parameters since your end-goal was usually a specific micro. Then, building your own computer became buying individual expansion boards or modules (in the case of very early 80's desktop devices, sometimes warts stuck out of every hole on the main case) and plugging them into a main machine - with all the issues that came about because of incompatible hardware or misconfigured devices (IRQ, DMA, I'm looking at you - I haven't forgotten the crashes!). Then, it became easier - now, it's all Plug-n-Play or equivalent and no more worrying about which device was on which IRQ address.
Soon, it will be about case color and which PC-on-a-chip you want in that case. And if you are the one to place that chip in that case, you've 'built' your own computer. But is it any different to call the last section 'not really' building a PC? Is it the Python of computer production, a 'scripting' of home-built PCs? Is it so bad that we're getting away from the modern equivalent of breadboards and wiring diagrams? Time moves on.
People predicted the demise of the desktop PC all the way back in the early 2000s, and it didn't happen. People will always need them for creativity, production, business stuff, and gaming. There are some things you need a big keyboard and mouse for, as well as multiple monitors. And the ability to swap out expansions like GPUs. I love my smartphone but I would not want to use it for all of that stuff. I use it for pictures and media consumption. Also never use Apple as a roadmap of the future. They're the reason smartphone manufacturers keep taking away vital features people use.
The user statistics presented in this video more or less prove that the demise - not the complete extinction - of the desktop PC has already occurred. When was the last time you heard a kid ask for a desktop PC? For most young people in the world, particularly those in developing nations, the smartphone is now their their only computing device. In more affluent countries, the next step is usually a tablet followed by a laptop (with a smartwatch often thrown in). Nowadays, few people can even comprehend the need for a device that is not fully mobile. While being very user savvy, most people are blissfully ignorant of the technical specifications and capabilities of their devices. The vast majority buy their devices on the basis of model, brand, and styling alone. They have no real understanding of what is under the hood or why it matters. They are easily manipulated by sales staff. Just ask 10 people how much RAM, storage, and what processor their device has. This is precisely why trendy integrated devices will dominate the future marketplace. Even though they are always teetering on the edge of financial insolvency, I cannot convince my granddaughters that their iMacs and iPhones are expensive fashion accessories. An old decrepit dinosaur like me can buy a cheap midrange smartphone, simple tablet, basic laptop, and a performance desktop PC; all for less than they spend on their smartphone alone.
@@jasonjames4254
Over here at my college, most of the students in the CS program have built their own PCs (probably for gaming, lets be honest). I think it is only a trend for young people that aren't technically literate, which is still a large chunk.
you also have to consider things like the Intel NUC didn't exist in the early 2000s, its impact is not to be discounted, as well as other peripherals like USB-C hub docks, that let you even connect a full array of standard Desktop PC peripherals to even a smart phone or something like the Steam Deck
Obviously for Bleeding Edge gaming performance, the Desktop PC isn't going anywhere but will become a smaller and smaller part of the market as technology improves which allows newer "lower end" hardware to run games that used to take a full graphics cards(also as games technology plateaus and no longer requires higher and higher end tech), in a much smaller package. it is only inevitable
@@jasonjames4254 I don’t think the statistics prove anything except that major manufacturers have shifted more towards laptops than desktops. It says nothing about people building their own PCs, which has become far more mainstream in the last decade.
@@Hornet135 Perhaps. But you may hang out with a niche crowd. Every time someone mentions their new phone, tablet, or laptop, I ask them about the specs. Not one person I have ever asked has known the specs on their new device. Do an experiment and ask 10 random people who are NOT involved in tech what the specs are on their various devices. Ask them how many desktops they have built. Ask them if they prefer a HDD or a SSD, SSD or m.2, etc.
Hi, very interesting video. I'm sure some of the space in the tower is there to allow cooling - which with more efficient ARM chips is less necessary. Plus with the rise in rental of processing power in the cloud accessible from many different types of device, we are heading back in some ways to the dumb terminals connected to a mainframe paradigm. Whether that is good or bad I don't know.
Bad for sure. There is no cloud, it's just somebody else's computer. I'd prefer my files to be on my own computer.
I would argue that the centralization of processing power, with the obvious potential ease of data monitoring, as well as becoming a primary point of failure in multiple ways, the terminal - mainframe model isn't particularly attractive. Some malicious person / group / state could more easily target centralized data centers for attacks of various types, be they data-ransom or destruction, or simply crippling competition by dealing with network infrastructure or power supply.
I think the wider distribution of processing power and data retention offers a more difficult target to bulk vulnerabilities than the mainframe model both in terms of physical and data security for individuals.
I'm sure that others will argue as proponents of the mainframe model, but those proponents should remember that when buying computational power, money is not an infinite resource. Patience in waiting for computer intensive tasks will have a number of benefits.
I think that ideally, a mixture of the models will emerge, where people can buy computational power when most needed, but still have their own systems for routine use is likely to be most effective.
If you do something that is latency sensitive, the cloud is the worst thing you can use. Google Stadia has proven this with other platforms just like it.
I don't think it will ever be a one or the other situation. As an engineer I love the fact that I can spin up an Amazon EC2 instance to test an internal app. Back in the day I would have had to buy a server, find space on an existing server, or find an old computer somewhere which needed updates and may not have the hardware config that I needed.
I wouldn't give up my personal computers though. I'll always have a Linux or FreeBSD machine running somewhere.
I think having the option for most people is fine.
@@mjc0961 It'll be a mix. Remember the rental model allows the flexibility to adapt to near-term demands. Virtualization allows one to move things around easily.
Nowadays PC cases have a lot of "wasted space" where one would mount hard drives or optical drives due to the fact that modern components are running hotter and most people don't really need an optical drive or many hard drives, so modern cases leave the main bay mostly empty to make sure case fans can push and pull as much air as possible.
However, some case manufacturers nowadays try and strike a balance between airflow and functionality, so that 5.25" bays and 3.5" mounting can still be achieved with modern airflow oriented design, for those who require such functionality in their cases.
While I've enjoyed (and also had my share of stress with) building my own PC twice, I personally wouldn't mind if they make PC's the size of a Rubik's Cube the norm - in fact, I'd welcome it if it were still powerful enough to edit 4K, 8K, or whatever video. In other words, it should have the same or more powerful CPU/GPU/RAM/storage capacity as an advanced traditional tower. The main thing I hope never goes away is the full-size keyboard and mouse, or something very similar. I HATE to type anything on a smartphone or tablet, as I am ALWAYS mistyping on those damn touchscreens. I have a smartphone, yes, but I consider it a necessary evil for on-the-go rather than my preferred go-to computing device. No matter what technology ever comes about, human dexterity is what it is, and will never change. I need large, tactile interfaces and a large enough screen to really do my main work and be comfortable.
What if something goes wrong and it's impossible to open, service and replace the faulty part? Do you just go buy another complete unit setup everything from scratch and download all your data etc. from the cloud.
I have many towers and all were at bargain basement prices, full of RAM and modern processors. My favorite "new" type of desktop PC is an RPI 4 with as hat for a bit more connectivity and a slick case capable of standing up like a "min-mini" tiny tower. Obviously not quite the power of the modern day PC, or for that matter Mac, small or virtually non-existent (ie Mac) form factor. Technology advancements aside...gimme a tower any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I hope that the space in a tower soon gets filled with a BATTERY that can run the machine for a short time unplugged, but especially works well as a UPS and power filter to avoid spikes etc.
One of the laptop's strengths is not worrying about unplugging them, as the battery takes over. No desktop has ever had this feature unless an external UPS is added.
Holy, crap, why has an internal UPS module not been invented?
Another great video Chris, thank you for this. I build as well, and I'm trying to get my son into building his own, but I also enjoy pushing the limits with hardware into smaller form factor builds.
Greetings Paul. :)
I really enjoyed watching this video. I love to work on my desktop pc. I love the fact that it stays cool with lots of air flow.
Well, this is how it's always been, has it not? At first we had gigantic computer mainframes that stretched from wall to wall, and eventually we got PC desktop towers. Now we have smaller towers and mini PC boxes. When it comes to computers, everything gets smaller and smaller over time. Remember all those video game cartridges in the 80's and 90's? Compare those to a Nintendo Switch game. Although they look completely different and are more like a micro card, they are technically still the same kind of thing. This is a phenomenon that will continue far into the future. These modern day mini PC's may look tiny now, but 20 years from now they'll be looking unnecessarily huge. I can already picture them someday being less then half the size of the ones shown at 8:16
Agreed,
I just bought a new tower PC earlier this year. In the past, every time I would buy a new PC, I'd just buy the whole thing (sans hard drives), including the case. This is because there were many innovations in case design for better airflow, cable management, hard drive slots, etc. Sadly, nowadays this innovation has largely stalled, and it's still possible to buy a case released to the market 7+ years ago as a new product. Same with PSUs actually. This does signify that tower PCs are becoming more niche. However, ironically, it also makes them easier to upgrade. For a power user like myself, buying an entirely new PC without a case used to really feed my FOMO, which added even more to the cost and complexity of the purchase. Now though it was much less painful, giving this old giant "full tower" case a new lease on life. I can foresee using it at least until 2027, but likely even longer than that.
Sometimes it's just cheaper and easier to leave a working system working, rather than recycling the case, even when the case would be adequate for the new build. I suppose it depends on the value you place on the old system -- whether it's a backup, or a pile of parts. If you've raided it for parts on the new build, there's no consideration of maybe keeping them both running.
I remember 2 other towers that met their demise on this day.
Sadly so.
I too think 'big tower' when I see PC mentioned. Being a producer/composer, I liked the fact 'PC's' were highly hardware configurable at the get go. I had dreams of a computer controlling patch bays, automating MIDI mixers, playing hardware and software simultaneously in perfect sync. etc. And all this was achievable - the same as building your own dream house or car from scratch! What soundcard is best? What's the best MIDI bay? Yamaha uses FD, SCSI, and SD, while my Roland uses a Zip drive - should I get those on the tower as well? And of course, cost of software to do everything - hopefully smoothly. So what started as a $800 PC with good RAM and HD and all, turned into a $8000.00 box with all the add ons and software et al. So I held off and got a laptop to do 'generic work'. Lo and behold, its soundcard was decent, the cheap 'virtual studio' actually was pretty decent, the VST's and DX instruments played well, and with a USB audio unit hooked up, I had ample MIDI, 1/4", and RCA ins and outs to choose from. Though the laptop was $2000.00 at the time, the music extras may have only been $200-300 for it. YET - I still fantasize of one day getting a tower that would rival all other computers, synthesizers and studio's and make them envious! LOL
I discovered your channel recently. I like the content, and personal style of presentation. Best wishes for every success. From London, Ontario, Canada.
Greetings!
Now that I have actually watched the what seems like an Explaining Computers meets Explaining the Future video, I agree that sadly, the desktop PC is on the decline. Full size towers are getting more and more rare and "desktops" are getting smaller and smaller. While I do have a few "micro form factor" devices, I do and will continue to keep at least a of couple of desktop sized PCs available for my data. These are easier to keep and replace multiple drives for RAID redundancy and backups.
I do have phones and tablets but these are mainly transactional devices or chat devices and keep little to no important data. I also believe in "owning your own data" and keeping it local and not "in the cloud" which is difficult to do if using handheld devices exclusively. I share some data in the cloud but nothing personally identifiable if at all possible.
Regarding your comment on business PCs, I am seeing ever increasing numbers of my clients using VDI and thin clients where the user basically has a kb, mouse and monitor with a small box attached to the back and when they logon they get their company's default base image so they can get their job done with access to a network share for storage. This has caused a drastic decrease in physical desktop usage. These customers are also increasingly NOT installing ethernet in new construction and relying solely on WiFi (shudder).
Thanks for this. I too shudder at the thought of WiFi only buildings. That is madness.
Unless they can reduce the power required by high end CPUs and GPUs or shrink high wattage PSUs, midi towers at least will still be around for gaming and video editing PCs! Also small form factors are a lot harder to cool restricting CPUs and GPUs that can be used. But I agree for most office and work applications the form factor will reduce or be integrated with the monitor (as these do not need to be upgraded piecemeal, like gaming PCs when on a budget). You will also see more use of APUs (Accelerated Processor Unit) combining CPU and GPU on one chip (usually sharing available memory between them).
Born in the 70's I fear my fate is the same as the tower PC ;) However, we still have some more years in us.
Mr Barnatt, I appreciate this channel and the years of entertainment you have provided.
Started in 1983 (age 10) with a TRS-80 for around $399 my first experience with layaway purchases. Then I entered the IMB clone years with a FastData 486 for around $1500.
The last tower low spec gaming pc, I built in 2018 for $430, my last purchase this year (for turning 50) was an MSI Katana 15 with an I7, a low budget gaming laptop $899.
In between was a second hand TRS-Model 100 laptop all the way to Raspberry Pi single board computers. Plus many consoles from Atari 2600 to PlayStation 4 (for my kid).
My friend built a PC and in building his PC he found out that it’s actually a little bit of a thing where some people actually build their hard drives with lots of empty space so having a big PC tower thing probably won’t go extinct but they are getting very empty
I don't see a "big wasted space" as something bad - more space for effective air cooling, as I do play games sometimes and often leave my PC on to participate in distributed computing projects on BOINC, thus it's under 100% load most of the time. However, I do see your point - smaller PCs do indeed make sense, it's been years since I've done any upgrades to my PC, on the other hand, mine is a bit non-typical having a lot of HDDs in it occupied by dozens of games installed out of hundreds I got (mostly through launchers like Steam, Epic, Origin, Amazon, Battle NET etc), many of them taking up a lot of drive space.
I've been in I.T. for over 43 years. I had a Commodore Vic-20, a Commodore 64, an Atari TRS-80 a PC 8088, 80286, and so on. I remember feeling like a KING when I got my brand new 10Mb Seagate hard drive! Let's be honest, everything about this channel looks cheezy: Graphics, sounds, and even Chris' haircut. But still, this is by FAR the best channel if you want to learn about computers. And that's exactly why all the "cheezy" and old style is just perfect in this case. You don't get distracted by all the flash and gizmos. You're not lost with 10,000 words with 9,950 being useless! The speed of the narration is perfect, the explanations clear and simple, and most important... the content is very accurate. Cheezy you think? I'd say well thought of and pretty smart...
I consider that anyone getting into I.T., whatever the field (Networking, programming, etc...), should watch those videos. This channel and PowerCert Animated are a must!
Thanks for watching, and your kind feedback. :)
@@ExplainingComputers Kind and well deserved. You're one of the too few gems on UA-cam:)
Great video as always :-)
I have moved to the ITX mini standard instead.
It is still a standard, but it is small factor case, I love it.
You can use standard graphic cards, and put in M.2 SSD's in it, and Harddrives and BR/DVD drivs too if you prefer that media.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with all of us 🙂
if ever they make more external interfaces that allows interconnecting components outside small powerful pcs (like that gpu card connected outside a laptop) it could be, let's see. i like the small form factor by the way, makes the work desk less clutter
The only way to get a GPU connected outside a laptop is with a 1x PCI-E cable, and that only runs the card at one 16th of it's potential throughput. You may as well just use the laptop's onboard video, or use a USB-video dongle, if you're entertaining THAT nonsense.
Less clutter until you have 6-8 external devices that used to be internal
@@BlackEpyon well, if you are "sure about the future" that interfaces will not change for its 1/16th of throughput. necessity is the mother of all inventions. my sentence uses the "let's see" and thus open-ended mr. wise.
Small form factor with just a few expansions will look like a bloody mess of units and wires!
Trust me, i have been there and now i'm back to the tower PC again, a slick look and no cable mess.
@@marcussoininen2084 Yup those mini PC all have power brick, more powerful one have huge power brick so the case seem smaller :))
Speaking for myself, as a home user, I have both tower and laptop PCs. For stationary home use I prefer towers for more cooling, storage and peripheral options. Otherwise, another great, informative presentation. Best regards.
I expected this to be about the history of tall tower PCs, like PS/2 model 80 and the ATX cases that had 50% extra height for more drives. Common characteristic is filling the physical space between floor and desk.
I disagree with Tower PC's being endangered. They may be so in the office space, bot not in the gamer space. You can't stick a RTX 3090 into the space in a NUC, Phone, or Tablet. While mobile devices are great for when you are on the go, most of computer you mentioned are nothing more than content creator/consumer devices meant for people who only browse the web, view, edit or upload videos or play basic Facebook browser games.
But you can stick an RTX 3090 into a NUC Extreme . . .
@@ExplainingComputers that is true, however it isn’t practical for the vast majority of gamers, who prefer to have the space in a tower PC, where components aren’t crammed together. Airflow isn’t an issue either compared to an ITX/small form factor build.
@@HazzyDevil the '"majority of gamers" is 0,01% of market
@@diablorojo3887 that is definitely not true, and besides with the amount of PC gamers there are and how much the market will continue to grow, full tower/mid tower cases won’t be going away or become endangered. Oh and also, it’s not specific to gamers either. Content creators, HEDT enthusiasts, AI and ML workloads. So even if these are just portions of the PC community as a whole, it’d be a fallacy to say that all of them combined wouldn’t be enough to “un-endanger” the tower cases.
I have 3 towers and 3 compacts. I will keep the towers for sure because I can upgrade the parts easily. I started with 2 gig memory and easily plugged in 16 gig when the cost dropped. Same with the hard drives to SSDs as the cost dropped.