Dying Earth/Dying Planet is probably my favorite sub-genre/setting in SF. I think it does open up more possibilities and allows for that "science becoming magic" and vice versa more so than something set relatively near our own time. (Unsurprisingly) Gene Wolfe is my favorite writer and Book of the New Sun is my favorite "book." I have noticed over the past couple of years especially, as Wolfe has seemingly become more popular and recommended online, that the contrarians have come out in fuller force to criticize it. To each his own and that is the cross that all sacred cows must bear, but having read it now 5-6 times I agree with John Clute's assessment that "The Book is a feast and a eucharist; layer after layer, we have just begun to know it." I have only just begun to know it even after several readings, which has become a cliche but there is truth to it like practically all cliches. You mention that perhaps the book is less than the sum of its parts but, again, Clute came away with the opposite take: "The Book of the New Sun, all 400,000 grave and polished words of it, is far greater than the sum of its parts. So let us call it The Book for short, and spend some time in praise of the new Dante." What often gets lost with New Sun, for all that Wolfe fans like to compare him to Dante, Melville, Proust, etc., is that really it is his love letter to Vance and the pulp fiction Wolfe grew up reading and loving. There is obviously more to it than that, but I think it shares more with traditional sword and sorcery and planetary romance than most care to admit when evaluating it.
Agree with your last paragraph. Thing is, 'New Sun' was commercially pretty successful in the UK in the early 80s and like a number of other books ('Blindsight' and 'Roadside Picnic' come to mind) it seems to be almost a clickbait expectation of SF booktube channels now. I'm more likely to cover other Wolfe works that get sidelined before I do New Sun again- I think Clute has nailed it, really.
I'm very sorry to hear that you are dealing with debilitating health issues. I greatly appreciate the information and entertainment value of your UA-cam channel so I sincerely wish for your recovery and sustained good health in the future. When I encounter a person who, in my opinion, has an exceptional intellect, it saddens me to learn of chronic debilitating health issues (I prefer only villians getting ill). Also, thanks for the book suggestions.
Love the opening music on this one! Feels very authentically you and your channel. I wish copyright laws weren't so strict so we could hear more of your musical taste in different openings / endings.
Yeah, wish I could use my fave professionals at times- I'd like to do more about music, but it's a hell of a faff making videos and not knowing if YT will allow them.
Well, since some of the other comments seem to be dissing Mr. Wolfe's writing, I'll come to the rescue of his repute (not that it requires rescuing) and say that I, for one, am a huge fan of the Solar Cycle and his oeuvre as a whole. Thank you for such an informative video, Stephen, as always. The Dying Earth setting/subgenre might be my favorite in SF. Great pleasure to be subscribed to your channel, sir. P.S.: And thank you for the gift of Ballard, whose work I've finally acquainted myself with on the basis of your distinguished recommendation.
My absolute pleasure, glad you're enjoying the channel. I do think Wolfe deserves the work one has to put in, most of the time. There is room for 'difficult' writing- one of the key tenets of Modernism- while I can understand the frustration some feel with him at times (it has affected me when I've not been in the right frame of mind for him). I'd urge you to read M John Harrison if you haven't.
I have indeed just finished Light the other week (having read The Centauri Device a month or two ago), am yet to get to Viriconium, but am very much looking forward to it. Thank you very much, once again, as I have you to thank for discovering M. John as well.@@outlawbookselleroriginal
Great, great episode!! No ‘The Night Land’ by William Hope Hodgson…? I don’t think you can get much Dying Earth-ier than that. It’s maybe stretching, but I shoe-horn Hothouse by Aldiss and Son of Man by Silverberg into my personal Dying Earth shortlist. Reading over these comments, I am heartened how many people here in your comments are wanting you to devote an episode to Book of the New Sun- I also would really dig it. There is very little that the network of podcasters, guidebook writers, UA-camrs, etc. that have been called the ‘Wolfe Industrial Complex’ have not wrung from this juggernaut of a text, but it shows the trust we have in you to bring fresh insight. Anyway if you haven’t read New Sun in awhile, it is a book truly built for re-reads and new doors open on the 2nd and 3rd go-round. Anyway, great work as always.
Well, I did say 'series', thus excluding Hodgson, but you have a point ('Zothique' is a series of stories, plays, poems etc). I'll get to 'New Sun' when I re-read and think of something valid that no-one else has said.
Eyes of the Overworld and Cugel's Saga are two of my all time favourite books. Not so much the Dying Earth and Rhialto, which of course don't have Cugel in them. I think the Cugel character is essential
I'm a big Matt Hughes "Vancian" excursions in this territory, noting that he has been called on by the Vance estate to write sequels. He's a very witty writer who seems to draw on P.G.Wodehouse as much as Jack Vance. My first encounter was with the three Henghis Hapthorn titles, detective stories set when the universe is turning from a mode of science to one of magic. There are great elements where automated robotic assistants start mutating into flesh and blood "familiars" as the rules change.
The other writer who isn't mentioned as much as he was say 20 years ago is Jeffrey Ford, who was winning big prizes all over the place. 'The Physiognomy' is a favourite.
Stephen, I salute your diligence and tremendous output. To struggle as I do in keeping up with your posts, it's even more amazing (to me) you maintain the dizzying pace whilst compromised by health concerns. Loved the Steve Holmes piece. Loved the intro. Agree about Time Machine being a good starting point to understand SF. Cheers and, thanks for soldiering on!
The Time Machine was amazing, and so NOT what you expect! I do not know Clark Ashton Smith. Awesome... a new one to search for... Jack Vance! One of my all time favourites. I would be happy to listen to anyone talk about Wolfe, it might help cement my own feelings about his work, which have always been a trifle confused.
Well, I read 'The Time Machine' when I was very young and believe it's pretty much the first SF novel anyone should read. Wells codified and defined SF more than any other writer across the course of his first five SF novels, so I'd say all expectations should come from his work- but then the whole point of SF is to overturn reader expectations: so much of what people think is SF is based on what they've seen on screens, which is a different animal and a less sophisticated one much of the time. Glad you liked the vid.
A lovely collection Steve , dancers being my favourite probably because I read it so young but love Wolfe, M John and Vance also . The dying earth is a great premise although i don’t really read fantasy much anymore I still enjoy the end of time stuff . I recently picked up the second 3 corum books in one . Had them individually but couldn’t resist look forward to the all things moorcock.
I think that modern authors are too caught up in the whole "hard magic system" trend that it really sucks the FANTASY out of the fantasy genre. I've had more fun with a 120 page Moorcock novel where the magic makes no sense than with a 1,000+ page Sanderson novel where the spellcasting is explained to me in exhaustive scientific detail.
I agree about the ‘hard magic system’. People seem to have forgotten magic can had rules and make sense without being overly complicated or even explained in any great deal.
I can understand and appreciate the enjoyment of (and throw no shade on fans of ) such magic systems, but really aren't they ultimately derived from L. Sprague DeCamp, and what good can come of that?
Absolutely right. You can partially blame D&D for that, partially Rowling and a classic recent example of this is Samantha Shannon. All dreadful rubbish, of course. When I think of how Elric conjures Arioch in 'Elric of Melnibone', the elegance, invention and fleetness of the ritual is all you need.
In his introduction to the Masterworks edition of 'Monday Starts on Saturday' by the Strugatksy brothers - mentioned in my last reviews video earlier this week- Adam Roberts makes the point that REAL magic has no rules, is irrational and supernatural and that many 'Fantasy' writers are obsessed with systems, which suggests we are actually talking about Science (the natural, not the supernatural). I think both approaches can work, but ultimately it comes down to how imaginative the writer is- and the trouble with Fantasy now is that it became formulaic in the late 1970s for commercial rather than artistic reasons and it is actually the last place to look for truly imaginative writing. See my video 'the Artifical Fantsy Trilogy since 1977'.
A marvelous presentation as always! The Dying Earth theme is what really got me into SF as my primary literary interest is 19thC Decadence (1890s London, Huysmans, etc.). I've read the End of Time trilogy and much of the Viriconium series, among other things. You're absolutely right about the Time Machine being 'ground zero' for the Dying Earth category; and indeed Wells was partly responding to Wildean aestheticism and decadence. I also have copies of Edward Bryant's Cinnabar and C. J. Cherryh's Sunfall (haven't read them yet); I'm wondering what you think about these titles. Speaking of Moorcock and decadence, one of my favourites is The Bro*hel in Rosenstrasse; I know, it's not SF, but it's all about decadence and entropy.
I've read 'Cinnabar' and you make a good comment re 'Brothel'. I read lots of the decadents/symbolists in my late teens/early 20s and remain a devotee of Huysmans now. To me, these are essential writers to read to understand the more ornate Fantasy and SF of the New Wave and post New Wave period. All good clean fun! LOL
Dancers at the End of Time is colorful and wonderfully written. One of my all time favorites. I've only read the trilogy, & was unaware of the others existence - I will have to hunt then down! Thanks! p.s. Pretty sure it's Mrs. Amelia Underwood not Amelia Earhart the aviator.
Yes it is, I realised immediately upon finishing the edit and I'm old, working from memory and had actually been shelving an Earhart bio at work the day before....'Dancers' is very much beloved by MM fans, whenever I talk to anyone about him, the serious devotees always mention the sequence.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal to me he never again hit the highs of the Dancers series and the first four Cornelius books. I have a hard time finding other works by him that have anything like the psychedelic/surreal undertones of those books. Talk about re-reads, these are all great books to come back to at intervals in your life. Having discovered them in my early teens, new doors opened in them when I read them in my 30s, my 50s.
@@philipbonner6523 I would agree with this, with the caveat that much of the 80s work is excellent - the first two volumes of 'Between The Wars' (the Pyat books), the first three Von Bek books. And yeah, always worth a third or fourth look.
@@philipbonner6523 I think he was trying very hard to conjure up the Spenser spirit, but I know what you mean. I need to re-read it as it's been decades.
I'm 75 and still learning quite a bit from you young man! Listened to a bit of Spirit Burning (Last of all Songs). Liked it. Reminds me of my music salad days, late 60s. I want to read some of Clark Ashton Smith. There's so much left to experience. Selah.
Dying Earth is definitely one of my favourite sub genres, I've read and enjoyed all the books you showed in your video, with Dancers at the End of Time being the first I encountered. I've read all of Clark Ashton Smith's stories, including his more traditional SF, and his Zothique stories have always been amongst my favourites. I've long described aspects of the sub genre as phantasmagorical irony, and very much saw that as coming from Smith and Peake. I also enjoy Tanith Lee's Tales of the Flat Earth and Brunner's Traveller in Black which have a similar feel.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal same here. While I have only read two other Brunner books, Stand on Zanzibar and Squares of the City, it's going to be hard to topple.
I’ve read the Book of the New Sun (and mostly enjoyed it) and I’ve been meaning to backtrack and read Vance and may start it today. Thanks for the recommendation.
Clark Ashton Smith, Zothique. Vance riffed on that with The Dying Earth series, and of course we have the ending of Wells' The Time Machine. Fascinating stuff. I have an ambiguous attitude towards Wolfe. I love his prose, his convoluted plots, metaphores, symbolism, then I wonder, Is he putting me on? Is he playing mind games with the reader? I don't know if I like that or not. I want to scream, "Wow, Wolfe is it!" Then I think, "Is he?" He's like the elephant in the room. You know he's there, you want to acknowledge him, but you're afraid to.
I know what you mean: he has his cards too close to his chest to make as much impact as he could, almost as if he dare not. Unlike, for example, Christopher Priest.
There are a few Viriconium stories in Harrison’s Things That Never Happen collection. I read that book when I was about sixteen and basically didn’t get it, but now since I gave it away (to an ingrate no less) and have, although I say so myself, matured as a reader, I really want return to it. I think your summation of his style-“fantasy as a masque for realism”-really gets to the heart of a lot of the stories in there. Also: a while ago I picked up a copy of The Savoy Book anthology, which contains his novelette “The Incalling”, as well as a number of other weird pieces.
Yeah, I sold my 'Things That Never Happen' when short of cash as I had all the contents elsewhere, but I must pick up the hardcover again one day. I sold my 'Savoy Book' decades ago, alongside most of my Savoy collection- they did great stuff, but the combination of irregular format and dreadful paper stock encouraged me to depart with them, though I've kept some things. "The Incalling" is of course in 'The Ice Monkey', his best single collection, I feel. There are a lot of uncollected stories from recent years as Mike is always contributing to odd little thematic anthologies.
Great episode! Thank you for the recommendations! My greatest reading achievement last year is to finish reading the tetralogy of The Book of the New Sun, followed by a even more thrilling and confusing read-through of The Urth of the New Sun in Spring 2024. And I know I only understand like less than 20% of the books (or even less!) and will definitely re-read them in my remaining years. I am eager to hear more from you on Gene Wolfe! And thank you also for giving the sample from the Dying Earth stories! Now I know I will need to read these! All the best to your health!
Cheers. Would suggest you watch my video on Gene Wolfe's "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories" from his book 'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories'- I think the video is entitled 'The Faux Escapism of Gene Wolfe'.
Great recommendations. I’m new to SF. Lifelong fantasy reader. Gene Wolfe has sort of drawn me over to SF and I then discovered your channel and I love it. I also recently started a moorcock collection. Old paperbacks of varying quality. As far as book of the new sun goes, I see it as a Social Science Fiction book. I see Severian as a complex personality/sociopath (by nurture) whose only measure of ethics is ‘law’. His lack of individual direction and his emptiness causes him to be dragged along by other peoples destinies. Any time he deviates from his submissive lawfulness is due to his sexual desires. An absolute blast to read if you just watch his warped personality (plural if you count Thecla) smash against the personalities he meets along the way. In that way it’s social speculative fiction. One of my favourite lines that seems to be a self aware nod to the symbolic fog of the book itself: “We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.”
I think that's a very good reading. You've clearly attended to the detail of the text/ I don't use the term speculative fiction myself (as I think it's a fudge used by the mainstream to avoid the tainted usage 'Science Fiction', but the old term does link closely to the Novum as the scientifically-excused new thing that allows paradigm shift, while all fiction speculates in some way). Excellent post.
It's always strange to me seeing otherwise well versed readers in literature not enjoying/understanding/praising Wolfe (same thing with Matt from Bookpilled, I assumed he would be raving about New Sun considering what other books he likes). Then again, considering that Wolfe is easier to misread than to read, I guess it's also a small miracle that he ever received any real recognition either. Though the definitive Wolfe scholar nowadays is Marc Aramini. I would have assumed people that have a chip on their shoulder regarding SF being recognized as "real" literature (and it tends to be SF fans in particular, and less so fantasy ones interestingly enough that have that particular chip) would be Wolfe's biggest champions. For me this suggests that the "genre" and "literary" fiction distinction is real and meaningful, and doesn't come from publishers or ivory tower critics, but from the rank and file readers themselves. If you can't recognize something as art, it can only ever otherwise be just a product.
I think that Wolfe can be far from opaque at times, but of course I get that- he just rarely hits me in the way I want him too. I think there is a distinction as you say re genre and mainstream, but I feel the real issue is that there are plenty of 'Genre' writers who actually produced literature. As for 'understanding' Wolfe, I think that's a different, subjective matter and that Clute probably nails it.
Normally I don't take much notice of the artwork on SF book covers - for me, the story itself trumps all - but I have to admit, the cover illustrations on the - 1980s Arrow published - Gene Wolfe books were something else. The covers of The 4 volume "Book of the New Sun" series, as well as "The Fifth Head of Cerebus", & "The Island of Dr Death & Other Stories" really looked the part - as well as being mind-bogglingly good reads.
I'm the same - I like a great cover design, like anyone else, but ultimately it's the words that count. A good title lures me in much more than any picture ever did. Buy yes, the Penningtons- which as you say, were ported over to arrow from the sidgwick hardcovers- were pretty special.
I will fall on the side of the aisle that also appreciates Wolfe. I've only read Shadow of the Torturer and The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories...and Other Stories collection, but I've found his work utterly absorbing and without peer to some degree. Where I've struggled is with Vance. Thought some nice thrills were to be had in the initial The Dying Earth fix-up, but it felt very...creaky overall for my tastes. Would love to read something that would turn on the right switch in my brain and really see what the fuss is about. Good reminder that I need to crack open those copies of Viriconium and Dancers that I have someday soon. Also, I cannot WAIT for your Moorcock videos. Music to my ears to hear that.
I think Vance excels with flavour but is often light on plot and he has a tendency to lose interest in series half-way through. If he'd written less, he would have produced much better material, but he's very much a writer to read one book by, then put him down for a while- a dessert rather than a meal, I find.
Some Vance suggestions for a fellow Gene Wolfe aficionado : Short ones ( novella size ) : The Last Castle, The Dragon Masters, The Miracle Workers, The Moon Moth Single Novels : Emphyrio, The Blue World, Maske : Thaery Series : Tschai / Planet of Adventure , Alastor Cluster These are my favorite Vances, but you can't go wrong with any of his stuff as Wolfe once said in an interview. Unlike Mr.Andrews here I used to devour 3 - 4 Vance books in the row...😁
@@holydissolution85 many thanks! I tried The Star King, but I kept putting it down in order to read other things. I'll nab the ebook of that Jack Vance treasury that has those novellas and see how that suits me (I've got Emphyrio as well in a Library of America collection, it turns out, happy accident!).
Cugel's Saga looks wonderful and enchanting. Nice vinyl! Pennington's are stunning as always. I need to finish BotNS. I stalled on finishing the 3rd book. I enjoyed reading the series with the Lexicon Urthus which is a dictionary / encyclopedia. I got it after reading the first book. I didn't look up everything but it is fun to think of what I define a word he makes up vs what the "official" Lexicon says. I also owned A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: in All Countries and in All Times by George Cameron Stone prior to hearing about Wolfe so I liked existing connection.
To me, this is one of the problems with 'New Sun'. No novel should need a glossary, lexicon or dramatis personae- everything should be in the text itself, I feel, unless such things are made part of the narrative, nested and framed cleverly. This is one of the massive weaknesses of 'Dune' too, I feel.
Just a small point, but Jherek's lover is Amelia Underwood, Ms Ehrhart was off flying around the world. I always think that your comments on Gene Wolfe show that he just does not resonate with you. I have read the New Sun books five or six times and the Long Sun and Short Sun books are very different but just as full of meaning and depth. The thing that makes Wolfe so good is that in these books, the problems and puzzles he sets are solvable. In his later books, he does become more and more obscure, and the solutions to the books are often embedded in his Catholic beliefs, while being filtered through layers of various world mythologies. Moorcock is more fun, Harrison is more relevant to today, but Wolfe is the king. And although Wolfe admits a major influence from Vance, I'm afraid that I have never finished one of Vance's Dying Earth books. I love the language for a few chapters, and then it just gets tiresome and almost turns into a parody of itself.
Yeah, I was going from memory and I thought afterward 'Did I say Ehrhart?'. I do have ambivalent feelings about Wolfe much of the time, I admit. I still want to read more of his work- I have plenty of books by him I've not read- but I doubt he'll ever match M John for me, but they are very different despite some seeming similarities. Good to hear from you, Allan.
hi, steve. another awesome video! i'm a big fan of wolfe and love stories of the far future, though not necessarily those of a dying earth. i'll echo others and say that i would love to hear your thoughts on the book of the new sun. something to look forward to. there are so many books i would love to hear your thoughts on. i'll just throw a couple out there and make of them what you will... engine summer by john crowley is one of my all time favorite novels (along with little, big) for whatever reason, i'm reminded as well of the winterlong trilogy by elizabeth hand. talk about decadence and/or decline! hope you feel 100% sooner rather than later. cheers
@@outlawbookselleroriginal very happy to hear that. i drool like a baby when it comes to crowley and his oeuvre for many reasons. for example he usually write mostly singletons which i know you like. (me too!) i recently reread the deep which someone compared to game of thrones. the difference being that the deep is one book of 200 pages and game of thrones is...well we all know the score on that one! cheers
I always enjoy the awesome cover art by Rodney Matthews and Bruce Pennington. I also wish Ian Miller had done a few more graphic novels, as he's another artist with a truly unique vision and style. Of the Viriconium books, I think my favourite is a Storm of Wings because Viriconium is under siege while its protective gods, Matey and Gog, have decided to try being human instead, behaving like a couple of yobs to the exasperation of the hero they call 'the vicar'. It's a mixture of Science Fantasy with 19th century decadence and a welcome touch of humour.
I'm just getting over my own head cold, which I seem catch more often since COVID-19. Another stunning display of hardcovers. I love Clark Ashton Smith, even his poetry. I know George Stirling is an influence, but was he or CAS inspired by John Keats, whom I also adore? That DYING EARTH omnibus Masterworks paperback edition is scheduled for reading this year - if I can figure out which bloody moving box it's in. 😂
@@RodneyAllanPoe It's interesting: Romanticism is usually defined quite narrowly; Usually Britain, Early 19th C - American Romantics (although sometimes called such) are usually subsumed by the Transcendentalists. Yet, here's a California writer from over a century later and no one seems to flinch when reference material calls him a Romantic Poet!
Another interesting video, Steve. Jack Vance I'm OK with, but I find his writing a bit too samey from book to book, so, for me, he has serious limitations. Having said that, Cugel the Clever is a great character. I read some of the stories as they were published in F&SF and if there was a Cugel tale in an issue it would be the first thing I turned to. I guess dor me Vance is better a little at a time. M. John's Viriconium I've read most of, but I grew bored with them and have rarely felt the need to revisit. Moorcock's End of Time are my second favorite of his book sequences after the ajeery Cornelius books, but some of his singletons, Behold the Man for example, take precedence over both. Gene Wolfe was a bona fide genius. I've heard some readers say that he tried too hard to be clever. He didn’t, he was clever. The Book of the New Sun was, as you know, conceived as a single novel... according to Gene, and was split into four to meet the requirements of his publisher, so anyone who attempts to assess each volume in isolation is making a mistake.
Really enjoyable video. How about William Hope Hodgson “The Night Land” as an early Dying Earth prototype? It’s a hard(ok almost unreadable) book, but the imagery of huge, menacing creatures barely moving over millennia has stayed with me for decades!
Others have said this, but 'The Night Land' is not a series, so it's out of the bag. It's great, but I'm more of a 'House on the Borderland' guy generally.
I loved The Time Machine...remember that chapter when reading it as a teenager, so powerful. I liked Lyonesse but didn't enjoy Dying Earth as much. When Cugel came in, it wasn't for me. I do like the writing, completely agree. Only read Elric (the new omnibus volumes) which I liked and Corum (liked less) by Moorcock. And Gloriana. That one, the ending was not for me plus the Peake pastiche didn't work as well. His SF sounds interesting but his prose has its ups and downs for me. What a beautiful collection. 🙏🏽 Viriconium was not for me. In general I don't understand Harrison's works e.g. I liked Light but the next two books went over my head. I love Gormenghast, its an all-time favourite. Jeff Vandermeer is a favourite author of mine, Mieville tends to be much more hit or miss for me. Gene Wolfe, omg I am not a fan. BOTNS and Urth, ugh. First two novels of Long Sun, ugh. Then I tried his fantasy novel Knight, quit 15% in. Last one I tried and quit on was Fifth Head of Cerebrus, unbearable. Going back to BOTNS, I have in fact read it twice and still have the same question - just why? Generally speaking, reading is for enjoyment/entertainment and/or enrichment. This one offers neither. So...why? 🤣 Great video.
Moorcock becomes more literary as the end of the 1970s approaches and he changes quite a lot in the 1980s. You have to remember that the famous S&S series were written primarily to financially support New Worlds magazine and were not intended as the ultimate statements of his art. I'm amazed you like Peake but can't get on with M John: don't try and understand him, I'd say, just go with the flow. His best works are the short stories, I think. I'd also say that reading is sometimes about challenging the audience- 'difficulty' is one of the key tenets of Modernism and without a little difficulty in SF or Fantasy, we end up with pap- which is why so much genre fiction after the mid 1990s is basically for kids. Thanks for watching and for your comments, good to have you here.
Hi Steve . Can we place Sterling Lanier in that space . I have Hiero's Journey but have only read the blurb . Tried to start Harrisons Light, tough . Wolfe is one of the authors who "try me " . Alas i one of those readers who hate to admit that i could not even get to half way in a book , so i plod on and on , until i admit defeat . Wolfes a bit like Watson except more trying than Watson, my bias and (immature?) take away .Thanks for the as always informative video
I think Walt has a point below. Funnily enough, the two Hiero books are being reissued as Gollanca Masterworks. Yeah, Ian Watson can be difficult, sometimes infuriatingly so, but when he nails it- oh boy!
Maybe this is off topic, but have you read Matheson's The Incredible Shrinking Man? The ending of that novel was (to me) as much as an upper as The Time Machine was a downer. Both shocked me, but in polar-opposite directions.
I think 'The Shrinking Man' (to give it the correct title) is an utter masterpiece- I have mentioned it on the channel quite some time ago. Its depiction of a man alone in an unimaginable personal situation is typical of RM's genius for sympathetic portrayals of individuals under extreme stress, I think.
As others have mentioned picayune details that would have spurred my apparent autism to pique I have tried to let my extreme pedantry fall to the wayside, especially while watching your excellent videos (usually be cause you are MORE correct than I). But I am helpless before my compulsion to mention (an oversight on your part due no doubt to your weakened state, and should be regarded as a hiccup in such a lettered commentator) that I - in my intercontinental ignorance - have not heard of "The Return of the Fireclown" as an alternate title to "The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming" only "Messiah at the End of Time" and unconfirmed whispers of "Constant Fire." More importantly, I have never seen those two HC's and I am insanely jealous. Likewise, although I have not read Wolfe, I must point out I am also awed by (what the kids would call) such "A Girthy Display."
'Return of the Fireclown' was definitely used as a title in some territories on some editions, but not for many, many years. "Constant Fire" (note my use of double parenthesis for a short work, single for a novel title) is one of the three novellas that make up 'Legends from the End of Time' (I'm going from a faulty memory now, as those books are now behind a ton of 'unhaul' (!) boxes. Ironic use of 'unhaul', natch!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Although I do understand the proper use of quotation marks, I fear that I am terribly inconsistent about using them in comments. When composing anything on my phone it feels like a miracle if I even go back to fix spelling, let alone worry about MLA handbook standards. I fear I tend to capitalize / spell / punctuate for emphasis or satirical purposes far more than grammatical correctness or ideological purity. I confess it is a personal failing & and I probably deserve your scorn. . . Likewise my copy of 'Legends' is buried beneath boxes, leaving me unwilling to check, but I am willing to take your retort re: 'Fire' as correct (Note my use of single quotes to differentiate a title while showing complete disregard for actually presenting the whole title and instead presenting an ad hoc abbreviation.) More importantly is that there are thousands and thousands more "Messiahs at the End of Time" than "Transformations of Miss Mavis Ming" when seeking out these texts, making it a weightier mention. Still, tongue firmly in cheek. Still, fully in awe of your girthy 1st's!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal yes, it was, & i *thought* later UK editions as well, but half of my info on that is hearsay. Sorry for the tsunami. I suppose this is a warning sign that I have been listening to too many of Harlan Ellison's essays of late. Try reading my comment out loud, the goal was to make you laugh.
I love the dying earth books, a list of more would be great. Also, is there a classification or search term for books with a fantasy setting overlaid upon the ruins of a sci fi civilization?
I think you need to clarify what you mean with examples- actual book titles. Do you mean works where there is actual magic (the supernatural) emerging after a civilisation that has until then been technological? A book cannot be both SF and Fantasy, it will be one or the other- it doesn't matter how many SF tropes are in a book (spaceships, robots, aliens), once the supernatural appears and is not scientifically explicable (i.e. natural) a work ceases to be SF and becomes Fantasy.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Sorry, I'll try to be more specific. I'm looking for something that includes a Medieval technology level society or below has established itself in a setting that contains the ruins of an ancient civilization whose technology was based on magic or is so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic. They people of the newer culture have little or no knowledge of the previous one. EX. ‘The Jade Man’s Eyes’,
@@clint8050 Right. I can't think of any bit of terminology for such a specific scenario and if there is one, it will be in 'The Encyclopedia of Fantasy' by Clute & Grant. This is an enormous volume, but if I come across something that fits, I'll let you know.
I've read 'New Sun'- and the first volume twice. I've read other, more approachable Wolfe. I'm not certain I'll ever get around to late Wolfe, honestly. But we'll see.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I gotta say, Book of the Short Sun is stunning, flabbergasting, absolutely rewarding work, just about his best. But, that you need to have multiply close-read 9 dense, difficult volumes to get to it means that few will actually get there.
@@philipbonner6523 Agreed., but it's interesting how Wolfe is so revered and yet M John Harrison is so little known by comparison- different techniques, but close reading required in his work too.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I’m not going to touch this. You probably can deduce what my opinions are in the matter. Let’s just say I greatly respect your insights in this venue and I would love to one day see you do a simultaneous re-assessment of both Harrison and Wolfe’s Dying Earth work here.
Yes, but it's not a SERIES. Read the title of the video in the thumbnail. And you'e only the third person to mention it here. You're not dealing with an amateur here- I first read Hodgson forty odd years ago, so cut the angry emojis if you will.
Dying Earth/Dying Planet is probably my favorite sub-genre/setting in SF. I think it does open up more possibilities and allows for that "science becoming magic" and vice versa more so than something set relatively near our own time. (Unsurprisingly) Gene Wolfe is my favorite writer and Book of the New Sun is my favorite "book." I have noticed over the past couple of years especially, as Wolfe has seemingly become more popular and recommended online, that the contrarians have come out in fuller force to criticize it. To each his own and that is the cross that all sacred cows must bear, but having read it now 5-6 times I agree with John Clute's assessment that "The Book is a feast and a eucharist; layer after layer, we have just begun to know it." I have only just begun to know it even after several readings, which has become a cliche but there is truth to it like practically all cliches. You mention that perhaps the book is less than the sum of its parts but, again, Clute came away with the opposite take: "The Book of the New Sun, all 400,000 grave and polished words of it, is far greater than the sum of its parts. So let us call it The Book for short, and spend some time in praise of the new Dante."
What often gets lost with New Sun, for all that Wolfe fans like to compare him to Dante, Melville, Proust, etc., is that really it is his love letter to Vance and the pulp fiction Wolfe grew up reading and loving. There is obviously more to it than that, but I think it shares more with traditional sword and sorcery and planetary romance than most care to admit when evaluating it.
Agree with your last paragraph. Thing is, 'New Sun' was commercially pretty successful in the UK in the early 80s and like a number of other books ('Blindsight' and 'Roadside Picnic' come to mind) it seems to be almost a clickbait expectation of SF booktube channels now. I'm more likely to cover other Wolfe works that get sidelined before I do New Sun again- I think Clute has nailed it, really.
I'm very sorry to hear that you are dealing with debilitating health issues. I greatly appreciate the information and entertainment value of your UA-cam channel so I sincerely wish for your recovery and sustained good health in the future. When I encounter a person who, in my opinion, has an exceptional intellect, it saddens me to learn of chronic debilitating health issues (I prefer only villians getting ill). Also, thanks for the book suggestions.
You're very kind, thanks a lot. It's been over a year now and the end is in sight, but it may take another 6 months. Fingers crossed.
Love the opening music on this one!
Feels very authentically you and your channel. I wish copyright laws weren't so strict so we could hear more of your musical taste in different openings / endings.
Yeah, wish I could use my fave professionals at times- I'd like to do more about music, but it's a hell of a faff making videos and not knowing if YT will allow them.
Well, since some of the other comments seem to be dissing Mr. Wolfe's writing, I'll come to the rescue of his repute (not that it requires rescuing) and say that I, for one, am a huge fan of the Solar Cycle and his oeuvre as a whole. Thank you for such an informative video, Stephen, as always. The Dying Earth setting/subgenre might be my favorite in SF. Great pleasure to be subscribed to your channel, sir.
P.S.: And thank you for the gift of Ballard, whose work I've finally acquainted myself with on the basis of your distinguished recommendation.
My absolute pleasure, glad you're enjoying the channel. I do think Wolfe deserves the work one has to put in, most of the time. There is room for 'difficult' writing- one of the key tenets of Modernism- while I can understand the frustration some feel with him at times (it has affected me when I've not been in the right frame of mind for him). I'd urge you to read M John Harrison if you haven't.
I have indeed just finished Light the other week (having read The Centauri Device a month or two ago), am yet to get to Viriconium, but am very much looking forward to it. Thank you very much, once again, as I have you to thank for discovering M. John as well.@@outlawbookselleroriginal
@@apriori_dasein I love all Mike's stuff, but prefer 'Viriconium' to his Space Operas. He's a legend.
Great, great episode!!
No ‘The Night Land’ by William Hope Hodgson…? I don’t think you can get much Dying Earth-ier than that.
It’s maybe stretching, but I shoe-horn Hothouse by Aldiss and Son of Man by Silverberg into my personal Dying Earth shortlist.
Reading over these comments, I am heartened how many people here in your comments are wanting you to devote an episode to Book of the New Sun- I also would really dig it. There is very little that the network of podcasters, guidebook writers, UA-camrs, etc. that have been called the ‘Wolfe Industrial Complex’ have not wrung from this juggernaut of a text, but it shows the trust we have in you to bring fresh insight. Anyway if you haven’t read New Sun in awhile, it is a book truly built for re-reads and new doors open on the 2nd and 3rd go-round.
Anyway, great work as always.
Well, I did say 'series', thus excluding Hodgson, but you have a point ('Zothique' is a series of stories, plays, poems etc). I'll get to 'New Sun' when I re-read and think of something valid that no-one else has said.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal got ya! I didn’t even consider the ‘series’ part.
@@philipbonner6523 The devil is in the detail with books, always.
Some of my favorites, here. I’ve taken decent amounts of inspiration in my own writing from stories like these.
Eyes of the Overworld and Cugel's Saga are two of my all time favourite books. Not so much the Dying Earth and Rhialto, which of course don't have Cugel in them. I think the Cugel character is essential
I prefer 'Dying Earth' and 'Eyes of the Overworld' above the latter pair, I must say.
I'm a big Matt Hughes "Vancian" excursions in this territory, noting that he has been called on by the Vance estate to write sequels.
He's a very witty writer who seems to draw on P.G.Wodehouse as much as Jack Vance. My first encounter was with the three Henghis Hapthorn titles, detective stories set when the universe is turning from a mode of science to one of magic. There are great elements where automated robotic assistants start mutating into flesh and blood "familiars" as the rules change.
The other writer who isn't mentioned as much as he was say 20 years ago is Jeffrey Ford, who was winning big prizes all over the place. 'The Physiognomy' is a favourite.
That passage you read of Vance’s is incredible. It’s everything good fantasy writing should be.
Exactly! Immaculately expressed, witty, self-parodic of the genre and suitably archaic and traditional.
Stephen, I salute your diligence and tremendous output. To struggle as I do in keeping up with your posts, it's even more amazing (to me) you maintain the dizzying pace whilst compromised by health concerns. Loved the Steve Holmes piece. Loved the intro. Agree about Time Machine being a good starting point to understand SF. Cheers and, thanks for soldiering on!
Salutations to your good self as ever, Rick! Much appreciated.
The Time Machine was amazing, and so NOT what you expect!
I do not know Clark Ashton Smith. Awesome... a new one to search for...
Jack Vance! One of my all time favourites.
I would be happy to listen to anyone talk about Wolfe, it might help cement my own feelings about his work, which have always been a trifle confused.
Well, I read 'The Time Machine' when I was very young and believe it's pretty much the first SF novel anyone should read. Wells codified and defined SF more than any other writer across the course of his first five SF novels, so I'd say all expectations should come from his work- but then the whole point of SF is to overturn reader expectations: so much of what people think is SF is based on what they've seen on screens, which is a different animal and a less sophisticated one much of the time. Glad you liked the vid.
A lovely collection Steve , dancers being my favourite probably because I read it so young but love Wolfe, M John and Vance also . The dying earth is a great premise although i don’t really read fantasy much anymore I still enjoy the end of time stuff . I recently picked up the second 3 corum books in one . Had them individually but couldn’t resist look forward to the all things moorcock.
Well, MM delivers imagination, unlike the sad wannabees who call themselves Fantasy writers these days.
I think that modern authors are too caught up in the whole "hard magic system" trend that it really sucks the FANTASY out of the fantasy genre. I've had more fun with a 120 page Moorcock novel where the magic makes no sense than with a 1,000+ page Sanderson novel where the spellcasting is explained to me in exhaustive scientific detail.
I agree about the ‘hard magic system’. People seem to have forgotten magic can had rules and make sense without being overly complicated or even explained in any great deal.
I can understand and appreciate the enjoyment of (and throw no shade on fans of ) such magic systems, but really aren't they ultimately derived from L. Sprague DeCamp, and what good can come of that?
Absolutely right. You can partially blame D&D for that, partially Rowling and a classic recent example of this is Samantha Shannon. All dreadful rubbish, of course. When I think of how Elric conjures Arioch in 'Elric of Melnibone', the elegance, invention and fleetness of the ritual is all you need.
In his introduction to the Masterworks edition of 'Monday Starts on Saturday' by the Strugatksy brothers - mentioned in my last reviews video earlier this week- Adam Roberts makes the point that REAL magic has no rules, is irrational and supernatural and that many 'Fantasy' writers are obsessed with systems, which suggests we are actually talking about Science (the natural, not the supernatural). I think both approaches can work, but ultimately it comes down to how imaginative the writer is- and the trouble with Fantasy now is that it became formulaic in the late 1970s for commercial rather than artistic reasons and it is actually the last place to look for truly imaginative writing. See my video 'the Artifical Fantsy Trilogy since 1977'.
My must read books list grows ever larger.
This is the trouble- I'm actually working on get mine down, as I must have 300 books I haven't read.
A marvelous presentation as always! The Dying Earth theme is what really got me into SF as my primary literary interest is 19thC Decadence (1890s London, Huysmans, etc.). I've read the End of Time trilogy and much of the Viriconium series, among other things. You're absolutely right about the Time Machine being 'ground zero' for the Dying Earth category; and indeed Wells was partly responding to Wildean aestheticism and decadence. I also have copies of Edward Bryant's Cinnabar and C. J. Cherryh's Sunfall (haven't read them yet); I'm wondering what you think about these titles. Speaking of Moorcock and decadence, one of my favourites is The Bro*hel in Rosenstrasse; I know, it's not SF, but it's all about decadence and entropy.
I've read 'Cinnabar' and you make a good comment re 'Brothel'. I read lots of the decadents/symbolists in my late teens/early 20s and remain a devotee of Huysmans now. To me, these are essential writers to read to understand the more ornate Fantasy and SF of the New Wave and post New Wave period. All good clean fun! LOL
Amazing video Dad! 😮
Dancers at the End of Time is colorful and wonderfully written. One of my all time favorites.
I've only read the trilogy, & was unaware of the others existence - I will have to hunt then down!
Thanks!
p.s. Pretty sure it's Mrs. Amelia Underwood not Amelia Earhart the aviator.
Yes it is, I realised immediately upon finishing the edit and I'm old, working from memory and had actually been shelving an Earhart bio at work the day before....'Dancers' is very much beloved by MM fans, whenever I talk to anyone about him, the serious devotees always mention the sequence.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal to me he never again hit the highs of the Dancers series and the first four Cornelius books. I have a hard time finding other works by him that have anything like the psychedelic/surreal undertones of those books. Talk about re-reads, these are all great books to come back to at intervals in your life. Having discovered them in my early teens, new doors opened in them when I read them in my 30s, my 50s.
@@philipbonner6523 I would agree with this, with the caveat that much of the 80s work is excellent - the first two volumes of 'Between The Wars' (the Pyat books), the first three Von Bek books. And yeah, always worth a third or fourth look.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I did very much enjoy Gloriana, though it wasn’t as weird as I wanted it to be.
@@philipbonner6523 I think he was trying very hard to conjure up the Spenser spirit, but I know what you mean. I need to re-read it as it's been decades.
I always feel a bit sorry for people for whom Vance has no resonance.
I'm 75 and still learning quite a bit from you young man! Listened to a bit of Spirit Burning (Last of all Songs). Liked it. Reminds me of my music salad days, late 60s.
I want to read some of Clark Ashton Smith. There's so much left to experience. Selah.
This is the thing, even if you stick to a certain period and its offshoots, there's always a bit more....
Dying Earth is definitely one of my favourite sub genres, I've read and enjoyed all the books you showed in your video, with Dancers at the End of Time being the first I encountered. I've read all of Clark Ashton Smith's stories, including his more traditional SF, and his Zothique stories have always been amongst my favourites. I've long described aspects of the sub genre as phantasmagorical irony, and very much saw that as coming from Smith and Peake.
I also enjoy Tanith Lee's Tales of the Flat Earth and Brunner's Traveller in Black which have a similar feel.
All good choices. I'm a massive fan of 'The Compleat Traveller In Black', which is actually my favourite Brunner book.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal same here. While I have only read two other Brunner books, Stand on Zanzibar and Squares of the City, it's going to be hard to topple.
I’ve read the Book of the New Sun (and mostly enjoyed it) and I’ve been meaning to backtrack and read Vance and may start it today. Thanks for the recommendation.
Expect something lighter, but very elegant.
Clark Ashton Smith, Zothique. Vance riffed on that with The Dying Earth series, and of course we have the ending of Wells' The Time Machine. Fascinating stuff. I have an ambiguous attitude towards Wolfe. I love his prose, his convoluted plots, metaphores, symbolism, then I wonder, Is he putting me on? Is he playing mind games with the reader? I don't know if I like that or not. I want to scream, "Wow, Wolfe is it!" Then I think, "Is he?" He's like the elephant in the room. You know he's there, you want to acknowledge him, but you're afraid to.
I know what you mean: he has his cards too close to his chest to make as much impact as he could, almost as if he dare not. Unlike, for example, Christopher Priest.
There are a few Viriconium stories in Harrison’s Things That Never Happen collection.
I read that book when I was about sixteen and basically didn’t get it, but now since I gave it away (to an ingrate no less) and have, although I say so myself, matured as a reader, I really want return to it.
I think your summation of his style-“fantasy as a masque for realism”-really gets to the heart of a lot of the stories in there.
Also: a while ago I picked up a copy of The Savoy Book anthology, which contains his novelette “The Incalling”, as well as a number of other weird pieces.
Yeah, I sold my 'Things That Never Happen' when short of cash as I had all the contents elsewhere, but I must pick up the hardcover again one day. I sold my 'Savoy Book' decades ago, alongside most of my Savoy collection- they did great stuff, but the combination of irregular format and dreadful paper stock encouraged me to depart with them, though I've kept some things. "The Incalling" is of course in 'The Ice Monkey', his best single collection, I feel. There are a lot of uncollected stories from recent years as Mike is always contributing to odd little thematic anthologies.
Great episode! Thank you for the recommendations!
My greatest reading achievement last year is to finish reading the tetralogy of The Book of the New Sun, followed by a even more thrilling and confusing read-through of The Urth of the New Sun in Spring 2024. And I know I only understand like less than 20% of the books (or even less!) and will definitely re-read them in my remaining years. I am eager to hear more from you on Gene Wolfe!
And thank you also for giving the sample from the Dying Earth stories! Now I know I will need to read these!
All the best to your health!
Cheers. Would suggest you watch my video on Gene Wolfe's "The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories" from his book 'The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories'- I think the video is entitled 'The Faux Escapism of Gene Wolfe'.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I watched it a few weeks ago! Top quality video review! 😀
Great recommendations. I’m new to SF. Lifelong fantasy reader. Gene Wolfe has sort of drawn me over to SF and I then discovered your channel and I love it. I also recently started a moorcock collection. Old paperbacks of varying quality.
As far as book of the new sun goes, I see it as a Social Science Fiction book. I see Severian as a complex personality/sociopath (by nurture) whose only measure of ethics is ‘law’. His lack of individual direction and his emptiness causes him to be dragged along by other peoples destinies. Any time he deviates from his submissive lawfulness is due to his sexual desires.
An absolute blast to read if you just watch his warped personality (plural if you count Thecla) smash against the personalities he meets along the way. In that way it’s social speculative fiction.
One of my favourite lines that seems to be a self aware nod to the symbolic fog of the book itself:
“We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.”
I think that's a very good reading. You've clearly attended to the detail of the text/ I don't use the term speculative fiction myself (as I think it's a fudge used by the mainstream to avoid the tainted usage 'Science Fiction', but the old term does link closely to the Novum as the scientifically-excused new thing that allows paradigm shift, while all fiction speculates in some way). Excellent post.
Please do a Book of the New Sun video after a full re-read. It is my favorite work.
You may wait some time, but one day....
It's always strange to me seeing otherwise well versed readers in literature not enjoying/understanding/praising Wolfe (same thing with Matt from Bookpilled, I assumed he would be raving about New Sun considering what other books he likes). Then again, considering that Wolfe is easier to misread than to read, I guess it's also a small miracle that he ever received any real recognition either. Though the definitive Wolfe scholar nowadays is Marc Aramini.
I would have assumed people that have a chip on their shoulder regarding SF being recognized as "real" literature (and it tends to be SF fans in particular, and less so fantasy ones interestingly enough that have that particular chip) would be Wolfe's biggest champions. For me this suggests that the "genre" and "literary" fiction distinction is real and meaningful, and doesn't come from publishers or ivory tower critics, but from the rank and file readers themselves. If you can't recognize something as art, it can only ever otherwise be just a product.
I think that Wolfe can be far from opaque at times, but of course I get that- he just rarely hits me in the way I want him too. I think there is a distinction as you say re genre and mainstream, but I feel the real issue is that there are plenty of 'Genre' writers who actually produced literature. As for 'understanding' Wolfe, I think that's a different, subjective matter and that Clute probably nails it.
I relished this post and you are much appreciated!
I relish your thanks, with is reciprocated.
Normally I don't take much notice of the artwork on SF book covers - for me, the story itself trumps all - but I have to admit, the cover illustrations on the - 1980s Arrow published - Gene Wolfe books were something else. The covers of The 4 volume "Book of the New Sun" series, as well as "The Fifth Head of Cerebus", & "The Island of Dr Death & Other Stories" really looked the part - as well as being mind-bogglingly good reads.
I'm the same - I like a great cover design, like anyone else, but ultimately it's the words that count. A good title lures me in much more than any picture ever did. Buy yes, the Penningtons- which as you say, were ported over to arrow from the sidgwick hardcovers- were pretty special.
I will fall on the side of the aisle that also appreciates Wolfe. I've only read Shadow of the Torturer and The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories...and Other Stories collection, but I've found his work utterly absorbing and without peer to some degree.
Where I've struggled is with Vance. Thought some nice thrills were to be had in the initial The Dying Earth fix-up, but it felt very...creaky overall for my tastes. Would love to read something that would turn on the right switch in my brain and really see what the fuss is about.
Good reminder that I need to crack open those copies of Viriconium and Dancers that I have someday soon. Also, I cannot WAIT for your Moorcock videos. Music to my ears to hear that.
I think Vance excels with flavour but is often light on plot and he has a tendency to lose interest in series half-way through. If he'd written less, he would have produced much better material, but he's very much a writer to read one book by, then put him down for a while- a dessert rather than a meal, I find.
Some Vance suggestions for a fellow Gene Wolfe aficionado :
Short ones ( novella size ) : The Last Castle, The Dragon Masters, The Miracle Workers, The Moon Moth
Single Novels : Emphyrio, The Blue World, Maske : Thaery
Series : Tschai / Planet of Adventure , Alastor Cluster
These are my favorite Vances, but you can't go wrong with any of his stuff as Wolfe once said in an interview.
Unlike Mr.Andrews here I used to devour 3 - 4 Vance books in the row...😁
@@holydissolution85 Good choices.
@@holydissolution85 many thanks! I tried The Star King, but I kept putting it down in order to read other things. I'll nab the ebook of that Jack Vance treasury that has those novellas and see how that suits me (I've got Emphyrio as well in a Library of America collection, it turns out, happy accident!).
@@TBRKyle You're welcome, enjoy !
Jack Vance!! I have read and re-read these since I first discovered them in my teens.Need I say more?
Yep, great books. Check out the other Vance videos on my channel.
Cugel's Saga looks wonderful and enchanting. Nice vinyl! Pennington's are stunning as always. I need to finish BotNS. I stalled on finishing the 3rd book. I enjoyed reading the series with the Lexicon Urthus which is a dictionary / encyclopedia. I got it after reading the first book. I didn't look up everything but it is fun to think of what I define a word he makes up vs what the "official" Lexicon says. I also owned A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor: in All Countries and in All Times by George Cameron Stone prior to hearing about Wolfe so I liked existing connection.
To me, this is one of the problems with 'New Sun'. No novel should need a glossary, lexicon or dramatis personae- everything should be in the text itself, I feel, unless such things are made part of the narrative, nested and framed cleverly. This is one of the massive weaknesses of 'Dune' too, I feel.
Just a small point, but Jherek's lover is Amelia Underwood, Ms Ehrhart was off flying around the world.
I always think that your comments on Gene Wolfe show that he just does not resonate with you. I have read the New Sun books five or six times and the Long Sun and Short Sun books are very different but just as full of meaning and depth. The thing that makes Wolfe so good is that in these books, the problems and puzzles he sets are solvable. In his later books, he does become more and more obscure, and the solutions to the books are often embedded in his Catholic beliefs, while being filtered through layers of various world mythologies. Moorcock is more fun, Harrison is more relevant to today, but Wolfe is the king.
And although Wolfe admits a major influence from Vance, I'm afraid that I have never finished one of Vance's Dying Earth books. I love the language for a few chapters, and then it just gets tiresome and almost turns into a parody of itself.
Yeah, I was going from memory and I thought afterward 'Did I say Ehrhart?'. I do have ambivalent feelings about Wolfe much of the time, I admit. I still want to read more of his work- I have plenty of books by him I've not read- but I doubt he'll ever match M John for me, but they are very different despite some seeming similarities. Good to hear from you, Allan.
hi, steve. another awesome video!
i'm a big fan of wolfe and love stories of the far future, though not necessarily those of a dying earth. i'll echo others and say that i would love to hear your thoughts on the book of the new sun. something to look forward to.
there are so many books i would love to hear your thoughts on. i'll just throw a couple out there and make of them what you will...
engine summer by john crowley is one of my all time favorite novels (along with little, big)
for whatever reason, i'm reminded as well of the winterlong trilogy by elizabeth hand. talk about decadence and/or decline!
hope you feel 100% sooner rather than later.
cheers
I like Crowley and am going to cover him in some depth at some point. 'Beasts' is my preferred JC text.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal very happy to hear that. i drool like a baby when it comes to crowley and his oeuvre for many reasons. for example he usually write mostly singletons which i know you like. (me too!) i recently reread the deep which someone compared to game of thrones. the difference being that the deep is one book of 200 pages and game of thrones is...well we all know the score on that one! cheers
I always enjoy the awesome cover art by Rodney Matthews and Bruce Pennington. I also wish Ian Miller had done a few more graphic novels, as he's another artist with a truly unique vision and style. Of the Viriconium books, I think my favourite is a Storm of Wings because Viriconium is under siege while its protective gods, Matey and Gog, have decided to try being human instead, behaving like a couple of yobs to the exasperation of the hero they call 'the vicar'. It's a mixture of Science Fantasy with 19th century decadence and a welcome touch of humour.
'Storm' is difficult, but like all of M John's work, rewarding when you make the effort. Agree re Miller, a big talent.
Epic.
Morning brings a terrible clarity:
Elric was a Dying Earth tale as well. . .
...but not an End of Time saga....hence "Elric at the End of Time".
I'm just getting over my own head cold, which I seem catch more often since COVID-19. Another stunning display of hardcovers. I love Clark Ashton Smith, even his poetry. I know George Stirling is an influence, but was he or CAS inspired by John Keats, whom I also adore? That DYING EARTH omnibus Masterworks paperback edition is scheduled for reading this year - if I can figure out which bloody moving box it's in. 😂
Sorry to hear you've been unwell, hang in there with that big move!
CAS was referred to as "The Last Of the Romantics" so an observed Keatsian influence seems likely. . .
@@salty-walt Thank you. I did read some commentary years ago, but couldn't remember how the dots joined up.
@@RodneyAllanPoe It's interesting: Romanticism is usually defined quite narrowly; Usually Britain, Early 19th C - American Romantics (although sometimes called such) are usually subsumed by the Transcendentalists. Yet, here's a California writer from over a century later and no one seems to flinch when reference material calls him a Romantic Poet!
Another interesting video, Steve.
Jack Vance I'm OK with, but I find his writing a bit too samey from book to book, so, for me, he has serious limitations. Having said that, Cugel the Clever is a great character. I read some of the stories as they were published in F&SF and if there was a Cugel tale in an issue it would be the first thing I turned to. I guess dor me Vance is better a little at a time.
M. John's Viriconium I've read most of, but I grew bored with them and have rarely felt the need to revisit.
Moorcock's End of Time are my second favorite of his book sequences after the ajeery Cornelius books, but some of his singletons, Behold the Man for example, take precedence over both.
Gene Wolfe was a bona fide genius. I've heard some readers say that he tried too hard to be clever. He didn’t, he was clever. The Book of the New Sun was, as you know, conceived as a single novel... according to Gene, and was split into four to meet the requirements of his publisher, so anyone who attempts to assess each volume in isolation is making a mistake.
I can add nothing sensible to that, so I'll do a Wittgenstein.
Really enjoyable video. How about William Hope Hodgson “The Night Land” as an early Dying Earth prototype? It’s a hard(ok almost unreadable) book, but the imagery of huge, menacing creatures barely moving over millennia has stayed with me for decades!
I agree with The Night Land! What a writer.
I was hoping *someone* mentioned it, but after all, he said "favorites."
Others have said this, but 'The Night Land' is not a series, so it's out of the bag. It's great, but I'm more of a 'House on the Borderland' guy generally.
I loved The Time Machine...remember that chapter when reading it as a teenager, so powerful.
I liked Lyonesse but didn't enjoy Dying Earth as much. When Cugel came in, it wasn't for me. I do like the writing, completely agree.
Only read Elric (the new omnibus volumes) which I liked and Corum (liked less) by Moorcock. And Gloriana. That one, the ending was not for me plus the Peake pastiche didn't work as well. His SF sounds interesting but his prose has its ups and downs for me.
What a beautiful collection. 🙏🏽
Viriconium was not for me. In general I don't understand Harrison's works e.g. I liked Light but the next two books went over my head. I love Gormenghast, its an all-time favourite. Jeff Vandermeer is a favourite author of mine, Mieville tends to be much more hit or miss for me.
Gene Wolfe, omg I am not a fan. BOTNS and Urth, ugh. First two novels of Long Sun, ugh. Then I tried his fantasy novel Knight, quit 15% in. Last one I tried and quit on was Fifth Head of Cerebrus, unbearable. Going back to BOTNS, I have in fact read it twice and still have the same question - just why? Generally speaking, reading is for enjoyment/entertainment and/or enrichment. This one offers neither. So...why? 🤣
Great video.
Moorcock becomes more literary as the end of the 1970s approaches and he changes quite a lot in the 1980s. You have to remember that the famous S&S series were written primarily to financially support New Worlds magazine and were not intended as the ultimate statements of his art.
I'm amazed you like Peake but can't get on with M John: don't try and understand him, I'd say, just go with the flow. His best works are the short stories, I think. I'd also say that reading is sometimes about challenging the audience- 'difficulty' is one of the key tenets of Modernism and without a little difficulty in SF or Fantasy, we end up with pap- which is why so much genre fiction after the mid 1990s is basically for kids.
Thanks for watching and for your comments, good to have you here.
Hi Steve . Can we place Sterling Lanier in that space . I have Hiero's Journey but have only read the blurb . Tried to start Harrisons Light, tough . Wolfe is one of the authors who "try me " . Alas i one of those readers who hate to admit that i could not even get to half way in a book , so i plod on and on , until i admit defeat . Wolfes a bit like Watson except more trying than Watson, my bias and (immature?) take away .Thanks for the as always informative video
Heiero's Journey and the sequel aren't really that far forward after the apocalypse, no such pessimism or impending doom that I recall.
I think Walt has a point below. Funnily enough, the two Hiero books are being reissued as Gollanca Masterworks. Yeah, Ian Watson can be difficult, sometimes infuriatingly so, but when he nails it- oh boy!
Maybe this is off topic, but have you read Matheson's The Incredible Shrinking Man? The ending of that novel was (to me) as much as an upper as The Time Machine was a downer. Both shocked me, but in polar-opposite directions.
I think 'The Shrinking Man' (to give it the correct title) is an utter masterpiece- I have mentioned it on the channel quite some time ago. Its depiction of a man alone in an unimaginable personal situation is typical of RM's genius for sympathetic portrayals of individuals under extreme stress, I think.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Thanks for the correction. Sorry for confusing the movie/book titles.
As others have mentioned picayune details that would have spurred my apparent autism to pique I have tried to let my extreme pedantry fall to the wayside, especially while watching your excellent videos (usually be cause you are MORE correct than I). But I am helpless before my compulsion to mention (an oversight on your part due no doubt to your weakened state, and should be regarded as a hiccup in such a lettered commentator) that I - in my intercontinental ignorance - have not heard of "The Return of the Fireclown" as an alternate title to "The Transformation of Miss Mavis Ming" only "Messiah at the End of Time" and unconfirmed whispers of "Constant Fire."
More importantly, I have never seen those two HC's and I am insanely jealous.
Likewise, although I have not read Wolfe, I must point out I am also awed by (what the kids would call) such "A Girthy Display."
'Return of the Fireclown' was definitely used as a title in some territories on some editions, but not for many, many years. "Constant Fire" (note my use of double parenthesis for a short work, single for a novel title) is one of the three novellas that make up 'Legends from the End of Time' (I'm going from a faulty memory now, as those books are now behind a ton of 'unhaul' (!) boxes. Ironic use of 'unhaul', natch!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Although I do understand the proper use of quotation marks, I fear that I am terribly inconsistent about using them in comments. When composing anything on my phone it feels like a miracle if I even go back to fix spelling, let alone worry about MLA handbook standards. I fear I tend to capitalize / spell / punctuate for emphasis or satirical purposes far more than grammatical correctness or ideological purity.
I confess it is a personal failing & and I probably deserve your scorn. . .
Likewise my copy of 'Legends' is buried beneath boxes, leaving me unwilling to check, but I am willing to take your retort re: 'Fire' as correct (Note my use of single quotes to differentiate a title while showing complete disregard for actually presenting the whole title and instead presenting an ad hoc abbreviation.) More importantly is that there are thousands and thousands more "Messiahs at the End of Time" than "Transformations of Miss Mavis Ming" when seeking out these texts, making it a weightier mention.
Still, tongue firmly in cheek.
Still, fully in awe of your girthy 1st's!
@@salty-walt I'm pretty sure 'Messiah' was the US title is all I have to say after your tsunami of words (not a band soaking, though!). 🙂
@@outlawbookselleroriginal yes, it was, & i *thought* later UK editions as well, but half of my info on that is hearsay.
Sorry for the tsunami.
I suppose this is a warning sign that I have been listening to too many of Harlan Ellison's essays of late.
Try reading my comment out loud, the goal was to make you laugh.
@@salty-walt I did! 🙂
wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen... Wittgenstein
I love the dying earth books, a list of more would be great. Also, is there a classification or search term for books with a fantasy setting overlaid upon the ruins of a sci fi civilization?
I think you need to clarify what you mean with examples- actual book titles. Do you mean works where there is actual magic (the supernatural) emerging after a civilisation that has until then been technological? A book cannot be both SF and Fantasy, it will be one or the other- it doesn't matter how many SF tropes are in a book (spaceships, robots, aliens), once the supernatural appears and is not scientifically explicable (i.e. natural) a work ceases to be SF and becomes Fantasy.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Sorry, I'll try to be more specific. I'm looking for something that includes a Medieval technology level society or below has established itself in a setting that contains the ruins of an ancient civilization whose technology was based on magic or is so advanced as to be indistinguishable from magic. They people of the newer culture have little or no knowledge of the previous one. EX. ‘The Jade Man’s Eyes’,
@@clint8050 Right. I can't think of any bit of terminology for such a specific scenario and if there is one, it will be in 'The Encyclopedia of Fantasy' by Clute & Grant. This is an enormous volume, but if I come across something that fits, I'll let you know.
I found Gene Wolfe’s, “Book of the Long Sun” to be much more approachable. I would suggest starting with it.
I've read 'New Sun'- and the first volume twice. I've read other, more approachable Wolfe. I'm not certain I'll ever get around to late Wolfe, honestly. But we'll see.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I gotta say, Book of the Short Sun is stunning, flabbergasting, absolutely rewarding work, just about his best. But, that you need to have multiply close-read 9 dense, difficult volumes to get to it means that few will actually get there.
@@philipbonner6523 Agreed., but it's interesting how Wolfe is so revered and yet M John Harrison is so little known by comparison- different techniques, but close reading required in his work too.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I’m not going to touch this. You probably can deduce what my opinions are in the matter.
Let’s just say I greatly respect your insights in this venue and I would love to one day see you do a simultaneous re-assessment of both Harrison and Wolfe’s Dying Earth work here.
@@philipbonner6523 A big and challenging idea 🙂
The Nightland !!!! by William Hope Hodgson ( 1912 )
Yes, but it's not a SERIES. Read the title of the video in the thumbnail. And you'e only the third person to mention it here. You're not dealing with an amateur here- I first read Hodgson forty odd years ago, so cut the angry emojis if you will.
Gene Wolfe: I made it as far as halfway through The Sword of the Lictor and decided that life is too short.
Another refreshingly dissenting voice. I think people often think they should revere Wolfe, when his reputation could do with some re-examination.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I should probably clarify that I enjoyed the first couple of books but, for me, diminishing returns set in thereafter.