Arroyo Instruments is the kind of company that needs to be protected and kept alive at all costs. Any company that champions the owner's right to repair their purchase is to have loudest praises sung of them. As far as I am concerned, continuing to provide component-level technical support for a long since discontinued product is a cornerstone of the ceaseless process of upholding the mandates of right-to-repair legislation.
I agree, this level of service is truly remarkable these days. - If I had the money, I’d buy a temperature controller from the, even though I don’t need one, just to support their efforts :-)
Yes, a dutch power supply manifacturer bu the name of Delta also does this, you can just find all documentation about 60+year old power supply's on their website.
Hmm, capitalism? You can't just have the "good" parts and ignore the bad parts at a level that's almost defying reality... Oh wait, you are of course free to send Arroyo Instruments money. Nobody stops you from donating. Oh... you want that others donate and ... you just cash in the advantages?:P That is another possible solution, yes. It's called "bailout by the state." As with the banks. Of course I don't blame you, Scratch Pad. It was just a sarcastic and a bit cheeky comment:) Of course, I absolutely agree with you that such companies with great products that also support the right to repair should continue to exist. Such companies are a shining example that expertise, good products, customer service and honesty are not mutually exclusive. It is just your "that needs to be protected and kept alive at all costs" that made me smile and also think. Your statement is somewhat "heroic" but on the other side ... naive?!:) WHO pays? And WHAT exactly should kept alive (also the uneconomical or exploitative factors that perhaps led to the company's demise in the first place?)? Well, that is not a simple topic, but I hope the best for the future:)
@@dieSpinntwell if a system which destroys companies which does well to its customers because it can't cope with other companies bothered of only draining the life blood of their customers, I say such a system needn't exist.
My 2 Pfennigs: - Put a fan inside circulating the air. - We used stone tiles for thermal mass and electric insulation in front of heating wires (we didn't cool). - Never show this video to a scrap metal collector as he will break out in tears.
Good idea. I would design the fan to be passive, i.e. place the drive outside of the housing, which is shielding in principle. Any EMI from motors is poison for the tolerances of the measurement. Other circulation devices are also conceivable. Of course, this varies with the size of the thermal chamber. Neither is best and for such a small part this can be assured by better design for thermal properties. In addition, it was only a prototype for testing (see the blind spots caused by the screw connection). So, now to something completely different, the important point: Our scrap metal collector. This morning I passed the warehouse. There were around 20 to 30 copper strips (wound as coils) with a weight of around 180 tons. Next to it were the usual 2,500 tons of aluminum bars (for planing and rolling) and a few hundred tons of nickel strip material (I'm talking about coils with a diameter of 2.5 m and more and a width of 30 to 90 cm). Do you think that's enough for a heart attack? So for the scrap collector... Hehe
Very fancy! Although considering the Arroyo is from the USA I'm disappointed your first test wasn't a precision re-flowed S'more. 13:47 - You can use a TEG as a TEC and sleep well at night, the main difference is TEGs usually have a higher maximum operating temperature as heat sources tend to be hot. A TEC may be rated for 150 °C while a TEG may be rated for 350 °C. There are also some minor differences in junction geometry which affect efficiency and max delta T but those shouldn't be any issue in your application.
My understanding was some small percentage difference in performance, and an extra digit in price. Nice to hear that extra digit got some operating range too.
I am suspicious about the thermal camera results. The emission coefficient varies by material and surface quality rather likely more than the reported one degree difference. Or the spot size disallows spatial resolution smaller than the screw head size, in case you expected to read the copper temperature next to the screw.
I was surprised that the thermal camera showed about the right temperature. I often see the temperature of reflections when measuring shiny metal surfaces.
Don't trust the thermal camera when looking at metals, the emissivity is very low and depend a lot on surface oxidation and metal type. Hence I would not trust the low temperature spots on the screws. Painting the surface black normally works well, for example by using conductive graphite spray in several layers (or expensive IR emissivity paint if you have it).
I like your videos because they make me study some topics more in depth so that I can fully understand them. Great work as always and excited to see more
One of coolest (well, hot actually) giant heatsink usage would be big multi-tranny class A audio amplifier :) Just imagine a big row of power devices coupled to it :)
@Marco Reps @3:35 those two caps on the left of the switching supply look like they are bulging, I wasn't expecting to see that in a new piece of gear, it could just be an optical illusion but might be worth checking! (or it could be I am pre-disposed to finding bad capacitors in every piece of gear I look into LOL).
you could use heatpipes to make heat more eaven, the distribution of heat can be more controled and it is very fast in all parts that you put them (you can attch then in the side walls).
Are you going to publish the CAD for this rig anywhere? Looks like a damn good rig (*short of maybe the heatsink lol*), and i feel that stuff like this would make one hell of an Open Source Electronics/Metrology Lab!
I've been trying to find a good quality pair of automatic wire strippers for mostly small wires that don't mess up the wires, like maybe 16-30AWG, what would you recommend?
If you wish to achieve good thermal field homogeneity inside the chamber you should introduce small fan in there. It should help a lot. Best luck from Czechia
I made a semi-amateur temp chamber with the internal size: "the size of a bread box", supposedly for my JRL resistance and home-made volt standards, +whatever. (it's in storage) All I had was a tablesaw and a drill. It was made of plywood, home insulation foam board, lined with aluminum panels (laminated sign-painting panels), and an Al block at the bottom for thermal mass. Of course there was a peltier/heatsink and constant fans on both sides of the heatsinks, one inside, one outside. I was worried about electrical noise from the internal fan. I suppose I could have added a fan blade on the inside (and on a long shaft)... with the motor on the outside, to keep the inside air moving. My local electronic surplus store had a 40w P.I.D. laser temp controller (Wavelength Electronics), and a (Lake Shore) cryogenic temp controller --> only to monitor the temps in two areas. I had it running and stable to about 1*C of my setpoint for a while, then it somehow lost it's settings and stability. It really looked like a Frankenstein machine... wires/fans/plywood.....home-brewed certainly. I had considered using Aerogel material for insulation, but that's $$$.
Be careful where those small metal splinters end up. I worked at a hospital once, and I heard really scary stories about old metal workers coming in for an MRI and finding out the painful way that they had small metal splinters in their eyes or in other body parts.....
18:32 Yep. If you look closely at the two alternating values, oscillating back and forth between two values: +50.380859 and +50.377930, then that gives a very strong clue that the ACTUAL resolution is 0.002929 degrees. It is most likely that the fluctuation is in fact the least significant bit, so that the step size (resolution) is about 3 milli-kelvin. One could analyze further to work out all sorts of things from this starting point. Cheers.
If you need nice solution for cables, that will be bent regularly i am sure, that sencom bran automotive wires would do excellent job. Those are coated, high temp silicone insulated and with really fine copper. Example part number would be SENLB1389-10 and i'm sure, that availability in germany is good as in cars doors have really common loom failures :> Any repair with those refuses to die, and i did a lot of them through years
Marco: Strange - I'm subscribed with the bell turned on but not getting notifications to your videos. UA-cam is suppressing your videos, maybe? I'll keep checking in so I don't miss. Keep up the fine work!
Nice. Did you thinking about make your chamber presurized and fill it with helium - event at atmospheric presure. Second idea is repleace screws with springs, from outside copper chamber to alu sink - no heat bridge, no temp. gradients.
It's intresting about PWM and Peltier. I don't think that this is linear mode in the bridge. PWM can be smoothed with caps and inductors and then it will be very close to linear behavor. I mean graph of the voltage produced.
Hey Marco, to reduce the difference in temperature between the halves of your sandwich toaster, would that copper EMI tape stuff help? Or would bonding both halves with some of that low impedance earth strapping make an appreciable difference?
It seems like water doesn't actually do the cooling, just moves the heat somewhere else where it can be cooled outboard. That would introduce all kinds of new variables and delays in between the cooling mechanism and the temperature sensing in the chamber, totally messing up the control loop.
Arroyo Instruments is the kind of company that needs to be protected and kept alive at all costs. Any company that champions the owner's right to repair their purchase is to have loudest praises sung of them. As far as I am concerned, continuing to provide component-level technical support for a long since discontinued product is a cornerstone of the ceaseless process of upholding the mandates of right-to-repair legislation.
I agree, this level of service is truly remarkable these days. - If I had the money, I’d buy a temperature controller from the, even though I don’t need one, just to support their efforts :-)
Yes, a dutch power supply manifacturer bu the name of Delta also does this, you can just find all documentation about 60+year old power supply's on their website.
Hmm, capitalism? You can't just have the "good" parts and ignore the bad parts at a level that's almost defying reality...
Oh wait, you are of course free to send Arroyo Instruments money. Nobody stops you from donating. Oh... you want that others donate and ... you just cash in the advantages?:P That is another possible solution, yes. It's called "bailout by the state." As with the banks. Of course I don't blame you, Scratch Pad. It was just a sarcastic and a bit cheeky comment:)
Of course, I absolutely agree with you that such companies with great products that also support the right to repair should continue to exist. Such companies are a shining example that expertise, good products, customer service and honesty are not mutually exclusive. It is just your "that needs to be protected and kept alive at all costs" that made me smile and also think. Your statement is somewhat "heroic" but on the other side ... naive?!:) WHO pays? And WHAT exactly should kept alive (also the uneconomical or exploitative factors that perhaps led to the company's demise in the first place?)? Well, that is not a simple topic, but I hope the best for the future:)
@@dieSpinntwell if a system which destroys companies which does well to its customers because it can't cope with other companies bothered of only draining the life blood of their customers, I say such a system needn't exist.
My 2 Pfennigs:
- Put a fan inside circulating the air.
- We used stone tiles for thermal mass and electric insulation in front of heating wires (we didn't cool).
- Never show this video to a scrap metal collector as he will break out in tears.
Good idea. I would design the fan to be passive, i.e. place the drive outside of the housing, which is shielding in principle. Any EMI from motors is poison for the tolerances of the measurement. Other circulation devices are also conceivable. Of course, this varies with the size of the thermal chamber. Neither is best and for such a small part this can be assured by better design for thermal properties. In addition, it was only a prototype for testing (see the blind spots caused by the screw connection).
So, now to something completely different, the important point: Our scrap metal collector. This morning I passed the warehouse. There were around 20 to 30 copper strips (wound as coils) with a weight of around 180 tons. Next to it were the usual 2,500 tons of aluminum bars (for planing and rolling) and a few hundred tons of nickel strip material (I'm talking about coils with a diameter of 2.5 m and more and a width of 30 to 90 cm). Do you think that's enough for a heart attack? So for the scrap collector... Hehe
at 21:18 i expected some "Demon Core" reference 😂
Exactly, I expected a flash when the screwdriver slipped
was looking for this comment, couldn't be me the only one that thought about that reference ahahah
@@bansci I even when "ahh" in my mind when it slipped.
I went to the comments section to say exactly this!
Your videos always inspire us 👍👍 What a huge pleasure we are to be one part of your thermal chamber 😇🍻
Good grief that's some thicc copper! 🤯 Definitely making the most of the sponsorships! 😸
Very fancy! Although considering the Arroyo is from the USA I'm disappointed your first test wasn't a precision re-flowed S'more.
13:47 - You can use a TEG as a TEC and sleep well at night, the main difference is TEGs usually have a higher maximum operating temperature as heat sources tend to be hot. A TEC may be rated for 150 °C while a TEG may be rated for 350 °C. There are also some minor differences in junction geometry which affect efficiency and max delta T but those shouldn't be any issue in your application.
My understanding was some small percentage difference in performance, and an extra digit in price. Nice to hear that extra digit got some operating range too.
21:20 I like the demon core reference
The temperature diff on the screws is likely the emissivity difference of the metals. The temp is most likely an artifact of the IR camera sensor
I am suspicious about the thermal camera results. The emission coefficient varies by material and surface quality rather likely more than the reported one degree difference. Or the spot size disallows spatial resolution smaller than the screw head size, in case you expected to read the copper temperature next to the screw.
I was surprised that the thermal camera showed about the right temperature. I often see the temperature of reflections when measuring shiny metal surfaces.
Yep, usually for serious applications thermally conductive tape with known emission is used.
Yep, cover the area over a screw in black insulation tape and then look for cold spots.
The inside of the box seems to be covered in tape. Check the bottom left corner at 19:00
@@FF177- good catch.
Hah loved the demon core like screw-driver application at the end of the video 😂
Don't trust the thermal camera when looking at metals, the emissivity is very low and depend a lot on surface oxidation and metal type. Hence I would not trust the low temperature spots on the screws. Painting the surface black normally works well, for example by using conductive graphite spray in several layers (or expensive IR emissivity paint if you have it).
Orrrr, just put a piece of black tape on it. He'd probably not want to paint it.
THE room temperature room from community. Nice :D
ua-cam.com/video/VxxYqE4Gil8/v-deo.html
Beautiful reference at the end.
The demon temperature chamber
I cannot describe why but your videos are like ASMR for electronics dorks and Engineers. no, I will not elaborate
I like your videos because they make me study some topics more in depth so that I can fully understand them. Great work as always and excited to see more
I love the room temperature room clip edited on that screen!
I don't think a better use for the giant heatsink is gonna come up, as cool as a giant electronic load might have been
One of coolest (well, hot actually) giant heatsink usage would be big multi-tranny class A audio amplifier :) Just imagine a big row of power devices coupled to it :)
Hehe, that little demon core analogy in the end was just 👌
Uhm . . . not sure if this is a technical channel or a stand-up comedy routine, but I likes it.
@Marco Reps @3:35 those two caps on the left of the switching supply look like they are bulging, I wasn't expecting to see that in a new piece of gear, it could just be an optical illusion but might be worth checking! (or it could be I am pre-disposed to finding bad capacitors in every piece of gear I look into LOL).
I would like to see extreme precision toasted sandwiches in the future
Nice 'Demon Core' touch at the end. :)
Appreciated that demon core reference
"Not great, not terrible."
Oh, the famous last words... 😬
I genuinely LMAO'd at the Louis Slotin screwdriver!!! Well done sir!
you could use heatpipes to make heat more eaven, the distribution of heat can be more controled and it is very fast in all parts that you put them (you can attch then in the side walls).
Just got this recommended from UA-cam, amazing video! Keep it up :)
Well done Aroyo instruments! And thank you so much Marco! it was super interesting ...again:)
New old s̶t̶o̶c̶k̶ Marco Reps video!
Are you going to publish the CAD for this rig anywhere?
Looks like a damn good rig (*short of maybe the heatsink lol*), and i feel that stuff like this would make one hell of an Open Source Electronics/Metrology Lab!
Marco, you haven’t been posting enough for my personal satisfaction. That said, this was acceptable
The demon core reference at the end killed me!
i've always wanted a german panini-maker
Nice demon core reference at the end :)
We now need the Arroyo Steak Cooker™. To Cook steak to mathematical perfection
Great little and handy project. Awesome work.
For a minute I thought that the birds chirping was here and not on the video, nice
Wow, this is looks cool!
Fabulous project, German engineering sense with a sense of German humor
I've been trying to find a good quality pair of automatic wire strippers for mostly small wires that don't mess up the wires, like maybe 16-30AWG, what would you recommend?
Marco Reps produces some of the funniest UA-cam videos. However, some bemused viewers in this house don't agree.
It's amazing what pcbway can produce, what's next, custom LCD's in 10 days..🤔
Haha, loved the community clip @0:15 . Foreshadowing a sun chamber build? ;p
If you wish to achieve good thermal field homogeneity inside the chamber you should introduce small fan in there. It should help a lot. Best luck from Czechia
Was that a demon core reference at the end there with the screwdriver?
21:22 Louis Slotin reference
Awesome! Thank you for sharing your electronics genius with us!
Beautiful setup. Great video.
Nice Demon Core reference, very subtle
21:19 is that a reference to the demon core?
I made a semi-amateur temp chamber with the internal size: "the size of a bread box", supposedly for my JRL resistance and home-made volt standards, +whatever. (it's in storage)
All I had was a tablesaw and a drill. It was made of plywood, home insulation foam board, lined with aluminum panels (laminated sign-painting panels), and an Al block at the bottom for thermal mass.
Of course there was a peltier/heatsink and constant fans on both sides of the heatsinks, one inside, one outside. I was worried about electrical noise from the internal fan. I suppose I could have added a fan blade on the inside (and on a long shaft)... with the motor on the outside, to keep the inside air moving.
My local electronic surplus store had a 40w P.I.D. laser temp controller (Wavelength Electronics), and a (Lake Shore) cryogenic temp controller --> only to monitor the temps in two areas.
I had it running and stable to about 1*C of my setpoint for a while, then it somehow lost it's settings and stability. It really looked like a Frankenstein machine... wires/fans/plywood.....home-brewed certainly.
I had considered using Aerogel material for insulation, but that's $$$.
Do the edges of your two copper plates touch? It seems like that could help keep even heat.
Maybe thermal pads along the edge of the copper?
1:45 trippy transition
This got me dehydrated from drooling so much
The black 3458A is under enormous pressure with the heavy weight above it......obviously to keep the PPM's from escaping.
Who else caught the man spreading joke? Never change, Marco, never change
Great video, as always!
You can get screws and bolts made of PEEK if you need a very high amount of isolation.
Be careful where those small metal splinters end up. I worked at a hospital once, and I heard really scary stories about old metal workers coming in for an MRI and finding out the painful way that they had small metal splinters in their eyes or in other body parts.....
we havent seen any of the cnc, did it go bust?
Wow. That was a big D. You weren't kidding.
#MANSPREADER ^_^
About the screwdriver there at the end... Do you know the history of the "Demon Core"? 😬
18:32 Yep. If you look closely at the two alternating values, oscillating back and forth between two values: +50.380859 and +50.377930, then that gives a very strong clue that the ACTUAL resolution is 0.002929 degrees. It is most likely that the fluctuation is in fact the least significant bit, so that the step size (resolution) is about 3 milli-kelvin. One could analyze further to work out all sorts of things from this starting point. Cheers.
If you need nice solution for cables, that will be bent regularly i am sure, that sencom bran automotive wires would do excellent job. Those are coated, high temp silicone insulated and with really fine copper. Example part number would be SENLB1389-10 and i'm sure, that availability in germany is good as in cars doors have really common loom failures :> Any repair with those refuses to die, and i did a lot of them through years
maybe a little thermal interface foam at the junctions between the sides?
@6:47 glad im not the only one with horrid fusion 360 timelines!
Did anyone notice that he diddnt plug it in at 1:50? Seems like his gear works out of pure respect
19:00 which thermal camera are you using? Image looks pretty sharp
Marco: Strange - I'm subscribed with the bell turned on but not getting notifications to your videos. UA-cam is suppressing your videos, maybe? I'll keep checking in so I don't miss. Keep up the fine work!
would it at all benefit from an internal fan to convect the different temperatures around?
Why cant you just make the copper halves meet when you close the lid? Or am I completely missing the point of their separation?
Nice.
Did you thinking about make your chamber presurized and fill it with helium - event at atmospheric presure. Second idea is repleace screws with springs, from outside copper chamber to alu sink - no heat bridge, no temp. gradients.
Ehi Marco, at around 19:00 what cap are you using to solder the thermocouple?
Do you know what the cost of the two copper parts would have been?
8:26 I want “Fluke 87 for scale“ to become a thing :D (bananas are boring)
Fyi, titanium screws are easy to find for RC cars. They come in all kinds of fancy colors, but still have the crap thermal conductivity you crave.
What connector were you using on the peltier module?
I love thermal experiments! Is there any temperature probe besides a (S)PRT that comes close to those three decimals on the display?
Any reason why you can't just go with copper screws?
It's intresting about PWM and Peltier. I don't think that this is linear mode in the bridge. PWM can be smoothed with caps and inductors and then it will be very close to linear behavor. I mean graph of the voltage produced.
So, it was Demon Core incident reenactment at the end of the video?
Iso 2768 is ok but then you have to specify f, m or c to say anything about the linear tolerances And why didn’t you close the corners?
Where is your cnc machine that you build, we want to see that. Cutting titanium 😎
How much was the add-on for the Siglent? ;)
What TECs did you use, please ?
@0:12 in the background - on the PS display 🤣
Is that for grill?
Hey Marco, to reduce the difference in temperature between the halves of your sandwich toaster, would that copper EMI tape stuff help? Or would bonding both halves with some of that low impedance earth strapping make an appreciable difference?
Next. Playing with vacuum
21:24 Tickling the Dragon‘s Tail?
More LTC1000s?
Why don't you use copper screws instead, so you have an even temperature inside?
wow that's Cool
cool
Have u heard of piezoelectric generators??
ARROYO!
2:33 should have autotuned this bit for the lulz
21:19 Was that a demon core re-enactment?
Why not water cooling?
It seems like water doesn't actually do the cooling, just moves the heat somewhere else where it can be cooled outboard. That would introduce all kinds of new variables and delays in between the cooling mechanism and the temperature sensing in the chamber, totally messing up the control loop.