Powering An Old Mill - 1.5 Kw Lake District Overshot Waterwheel Project Part 3
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- Опубліковано 19 лис 2023
- In this episode we go back to the waterwheel and get some more jobs ticked off the list. However we still have alternator issues due to the alternator not being rated correctly. I contact the factory that makes them and they admit that they are not able to do the output advertised. So I am going to convert everything to work with a induction motor as generator
Kris do not be too harsh on yourself! the whole wheel looks absolutely amazing.
Ya build a beautiful car and the engine you buy fails. This is a Patronizing comment, Typical of our time. Make sure ya send Kris his participation Trophy. Kris got F'd by China.
some harshness is definitely warranted
you do great work. Lesson learned donr buy cheap chinese carp
When you see it on the menu it is so tempting.@@Melicoy
Lesson learned: do not thrust Chinese labels or stickers 😂
I’m a 71 year old electrical engineer. One thing I learned (eventually) is that critical path items must be tested before being installed. It’s time consuming and costly to do so, but there really is no reasonable option.
IE: bench test the alternator under controlled conditions before taking it into the field?
Yes. That would be my suggestion. 2kw is only about 3hp, so an electric motor of reasonable size could be used to drive the alternator. And a heater like the one he used could be the load. PITA, but could save a lot of driving and frustration. I really feel for this young fellow. He is such a careful, meticulous craftsman. Shame he god hoodwinked.
@@philterzian9162 Speaking of the heater, I'm a little confused by that failure mode. It seems like a loss of mains is precisely when you'd want your 2kW off-grid water wheel running. Unless it's only supposed to kick in when the controller itself fails.
People should also have faith in ratings / spectifiations. China is just un truth full !!
@@WolfePaws Good question Wolfe. I think he has a grid tied system of some sort. If the grid goes down you would not want to be tied to it for various reasons, phasing on restart for example. But it is puzzling. A water wheel charging a grid tied powerwall would be ideal I think.
Your 3 amp calculation is really per phase and you have 3 phases, so 9 amps seems realistic to me. You should also find out if the windings are star or delta connected. Resistance of wire varies and you won't get a good value by just considering the diameter. A better approach would be to measure the resistance of each phase then use P = V^2 / R
Came here to say the same thing
And another thing.....a motor is an inductive load so the impedance is more complex than the resistive part.
@jonathanstubbs1387; Are your referring to Delta or Y? (Wye) I have only heard of "Y" for generation over distance as in delivery across distance. ben/ michigan
Yeah. From what I remember, a 3 phase motor can be wound as delta or Y (aka star). Just the same as a transformer for power transmission
Remember your dealing with 3 phase. So you need to multiply by 1.732 to gain overall power (Root 3 in the 3 phase power equation). So P = V x I x 1.732 x PF (Power Factor).
Kris, You measured a single wire. That is a three phase generator so there are at least 3 wires being used to carry the total 2KW power. You would need to cut open the splices inside where all the wires come together to connect to the outgoing feeds. There could be several parallel windings in the stator. Your cover to keep water off the gearbox and generator is also acting as a "hot box" holding all the heat inside. Louvers, vents and a fan might just be what you need.
A fan on the alternator shaft would be a good idea
@@PaulG.x this. A passive fan and somewhere to direct the heat would solve the issue.
Yes, that wiring can handle the theoretical maximum of 2KW ... in open air. It all depends on the cooling. So maybe easier to fix the cooling than redesign the system.
Without a thermal model of the alternator in that housing there is no way to know what size it should be.
@Kris There is this great supply of water right next to the alternator. Perfect for feeding some cooling pipes attached to the housing. ...
Yeah, water cooling is a no brainer if there is a clog free way to achieve it@@henkspaaij7961
Forget the fan, look at all that cold water. Just redirect some of that water to pour over the alternator and it will be nice and cool.
You are an eloquent testament to the theory that progress is made through an iterative process of failures leading to eventual success. Your consistent positive attitude and wonderful sense of humility are amazing. Keep going!
I sure hope it stays this way, man it would be boring if we knew it all from the start lol.
NO david what Kris discovered is that iterative design is an expensive pain in the butt! (Just like SpaceX is discovering). The iterative design thing is a buzz word for putting off clients financial interests.
Hi Kris,
I watched your video last night and I've been following your project. A few thoughts: First, if I was in your situation now, with the added pressure of this being a customer installation a couple of hundred miles up the M6, I'd be exploring the simplest solution first - and for me this would mean getting a PMG/motor manufacturer on board (I have a company in mind) that could help with either a new unit, or a rewind of one of those chinese units with a different winding configuration and possibly a replacement lamination stack. From my experience in PMG design, it looks like (and this is just based on how it appears on screen) that unit/design/size should be able to manage 2kW at ~90-95% efficiency if wound correctly. If you want to try going down this route, I can help you talk to these guys from a PMG design point of view, the first thing they'd need would be a whole host of measurements such as lamination stack depth, slot depth/width, airgap size, target RPM, etc. and with these numbers plugged into their software you should be able to get a quick answer on whether or not a rewind would be feasible.
Regarding using an induction motor as a generator - whilst this can work, it's not as simple as a PMG because it needs an excitation voltage to generate, and if you do this with capacitors you will have to size everything for a single operating point/power point and then you have the problem of it being difficult to regulate, and possibly losing excitation and free-spinning. If I were going down this route, I'd be fearing 'opening up a can of worms' and I'd want to be fully testing and proving this in the workshop first, over the full operating range (using a motor-generator rig) before taking it on site. I've been involved in product developments in the past where the R&D spilled out onto a customers site, and for several weeks I was driving backwards and forwards to London every week trying to solve a motor control/stability problem that could've been solved at the lab, so I understand the stress involved.
I don't know how to contact you other than this comment section, and after a couple of tries my comment seems to not exist if I leave any hint of my details. Cheers, Andy
The same came to my mind after watching the video... at this point it would be a reasonable option to look for a local provider, who knows the trade, speaks proper English and has business ethics.
Great comment - I agree about trying to rewind it yourself btw...
Alternatively, you should be able to find used alternators. Test it to see it works, then refurbish bearings and so forth if it does. There are also still some European companies that make big alternators. Kohler is one that pops to mind.
Andy, you might consider his email which I believe is a link in the site...I do agree with your professional assessment!
@@szpl I am offering a new Baumuller Germany DSC100M64U10_8GDZ free of charge, shipping costs paid by swiss
for a job similar to this one
Kris, what a fantastic piece of engineering! Well done and meticulous executed.
Before you start redesigning your generator setup however, please consider that this motor can actually do it, based on 3 phase and 0.7mm wire (as several people pointed out in the comments). However, when generating 2KW electricity and 80% efficiency it produces approx 500W of heat. This is the case regardless of the generator configuration. A redesign might improve the efficiency a bit but the heat still has to go somewhere.
There are two ways to get rid of this heat: Convection and conduction. Convection transfers heat to the air around it and will require forced air flow. Conduction transfers the heat to the mounting bracket and the frame, from where convection will take over. Water cooling of the frame will reduce the convection needs, making this less dependent on the ambient temperature.
A very rough estimate of convection cooling: If the maximum motor housing temperature is 60C and the ambient air is 40C (consider the summer) then there is a 20 degree max temp difference. Newtons law of cooling states that the rate of cooling is directly proportional to the temperature difference. If the surface area of the motor is fixed and the temp difference is fixed then your variable is the air flow. The heat transfer is calculated as: heat transferred (500 Watt) = hc (transfer coefficient) * A (surface area) * dT (20 degrees temp difference).
'A' is the motor surface area (which is enlarged by the ribs). hc depends on air flow speed and surface radiance. For air flow this is roughly 30 W/m^2*K for an air flow of 5m/sec and 40W for 20m/sec (so not linear!). If we ballpark the surface area at 1/10sqm then an air flow of 5m/s will transfer: 30 * 1/10 * 20 = 60 watt. You will need nearly 0.5M^2 surface area with 20m/s air flow to make this work for 20C temp difference.
Disclaimer: this has some huge simplifications and should be properly calculated by a professional. Its been over 30 years since I last looked at this so no guarantees on the above.
How to improve the air flow? Perhaps a fan blade on the generate pulley will do. It needs an opening in the housing where the fan can draw air inside. A big round hole in the cover in front of the fan would do nicely. This assumes that the air exit through the bottom isn't too obstructed.
Probably best to combine this with conductive cooling using some of that water. Summers are getting hot and water stays cooler providing a greater temperature difference to work with. Conductive cooling has its own formulas based on transference of heat through a solid but this post is already long enough. I'd be happy to help bouncing off ideas if you like.
Last, you can test this on your work bench by putting a 500W heating element in the motor cover and put a cowl over it. Then cut a hole and blow some air through and see the temp drop.
Good luck and I hope your resolve it without too much headache.
Nah, you'd have to directly cool the windings of the alternator. Blowing air or water over the frame won't increase it's capability much. Especially for a 100% duty cycle of what this is meant for.
The windings are simply too small, and the unit's output is grossly over rated.
It IS what it IS.
Kris you are a one man business, developing an engineering product from scratch. .Don't lose heart, like you said you know how to fix this. You have created an amazing system and you have uncovered a product shortcoming very early in the process really.
Your work is typically so well engineered and thought through; I can see how incredibly frustrating it would be to have faulty (lying) suppliers. Press on young man!
Sorry you have to deal with all that crap, but life is a learning experience. You do absolutely amazing work. ☮️
Refining and developement WILL BECOME THE ISSUE FOR THIS ENTERPRISES ' SUCCESS..LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE , EH..?
I think you have to take a step back and just admire the whole projekt. This is absolutely stunning! Also huge props to the gully builder, that's looking really good!
As I am watching my imagination starts to make me smell the welding, (which I actually like.) Ether that or I’m having a stroke. Watching you work is very soothing. Thanks very much. 🙂
Live and learn. The work you've done is amazing. Don't kick yourself for the decision regarding the motor. Reasonable decision. Things happen. You've learned so much from the incident. You admitting the flaws makes you an honest man and sets you apart from the vast majority of people. Good on you! Keep it up Kris 💪
The generator just needs airflow around it. The sheet metal splash hood 19:40 they built is trapping heat inside. If they attach a mechanical blower to the generator shaft, it will likely work fine at 2 kilowatt.
34:47 The label alone provides for mistrust in the alternator's ability.
Otherwise, your work on the wheel, all things mechanical and your commitment to a job well done is inspirational!
What about the label gives you mistrust?
@@SageThyme23 the label says 2kW @ 500 rpm...
In my experience, divide chinese amp ratings by 1.7 to get close to the real capacity.
Mistakes are a very normal part of any engineering project, don't be hard of yourself and keep innovating, the next iteration will be much better!
P.S absolutely loving this series!
Yes, the Chinese cannot be trusted to be truthful in their advertising. I believe this is because of the fear that workers have of projecting facts which management doesn’t want to hear that would make the item more expensive to build. Management has an unrealistic expectation of an output, but the worker/engineer cannot this accomplish due to the reality of the science/physics behind it. It’s an insane system, which is why they have the reputation that they have. Another lesson learned, so now you move on to accommodating the materials that will make your project work.
Love your work on everything you do!👍👍👍
A chines never lie but dont tell the whole truth instead ;-)
Not only is this totally fascinating to follow, but your positive approach that learning is learning (& not 'failure') is really encouraging and inspiring.
Chris take it to a local motor repair company they will rewind it to what you want. You will have confidence it will work.😊
exactly what i was going to say cheers
... yes, and let them use the gauge for 2kW - so there will be less windings and therefore less voltage - but Vi = di/dt, so when you get higher rpm, you can get 230-240V and you hav the possibilities with the gear/pulley.
probably not enough space to fit thicker wire in as still need same number or turns.@@ardufreak6973
It's not physically big enough to make that power no matter what you do with it.
But the mettle housing simply isn't big enough to fit a winding that can produce a 2Kw output.
These videos lower my blood pressure. Not joking. Awesome and purposeful engineering plus the great outdoors. Love it!
I find them relaxing and have had my eyes closed just listening and fell asleep a couple times
You're such an inspiration Kris....on so many levels. Your creativity combined with engineering reminds me of Leonardo De Vinci on a smaller scale. I bet he never had to deal with a bunch of patent stealing, peasants that can't spell the word quality! Time for a beer, hot bath, good nights kip then soldier on with the revision to the original design. As Robert Pirsig so wisely observed in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, if you don't overcome the "gumption trap" that this has created for you, you'll just engineer your bad mood into the next phase. Keep on old son, you're soooooo on the right track.
Hey Kris, the wheel is looking fantastic! some input for the electronics, if its of any addition to what you already know.
The difference here is that they specify 2KW but this will be the short term Peak rating not the continuous rating. This is not that unusual to state peak rather than continuous, Chinese or otherwise. Motors, inverter, speaker, power amps always tend to use peak because people love big numbers. It also not just the wire, it is the power density/efficiency the wire you measured will be one of at least two for just one of the phases so current capability is ok (especially as the rating is KWpeak).
Running a higher voltage from the motor for the same amount of power (lower current) will reduce the temperature rise in the wires/motor. Double the voltage/half the current but 1/4 the temperature rise of the Alternator. This is also more efficient to run at a higher VDC down the cable to your controller (of course short distance 30M or so this doesn't matter so much but every bit is a hit in over all system efficiency). If you get the output of the alternator to be in the top 1/3 or 1/4 of the operating voltage rating of the Solis DC input for peak RPM of the wheel.
Also take advantage of some of the shaft rpm to shift air around inside that enclosure.
Hope this helps.
This... Read this a few times Kris.
Yes, this!
Nothing worse than having to explain to a customer that you’ve done everything to the best of your knowledge, and then to look like a fool because you’ve been lied to by a supplier. I really hope your customer understands and isn’t holding back on “too much” cash. This is what kills small business’, when all you want to do is have a happy customer who will spread your name, but go into the red because of nonsense like this. Head up mate! You’re doing a great job!
Absolutely 💯% nailed it! Kris has overspecced his top quality product so much the lying suppliers stuff becomes immediately obvious! - I *hope* the customer sees this as what it is and not what it isn't!! Your right, 5417 like this from "quick quid manufacturers" kills small pioneers and it's not fair!! Especially considering it also affects the manufacturers repeat business trade... 🤬🤬
Choosing suppliers is part of the job you are paid for. You are supposed to know what you sell to your customer.
@@niconico3907 I 100% agree. But if I order a red car, and I’m supplied with an orange car that has been spray painted red, only for the red to peel off during installation, that is not my fault…of course I’ll never use that supplier again, but I do expect my customer to have some sympathy to the situation.
@@mrgazzoify it won't happen if you buy the car from a reputable manufacturer. If you buy it from a poor quality manufacturer you don't really know what you are going to get.
It is also important to buy from a company with good after sale service.
@@niconico3907 yes... 99% of the time what someone specs for a job is reliant on the data sheet provided by the manufacturer, he spec'd the job around what the client wanted {can't remember if this project was 220v at 1kw or 60v at 1kw} being that was what he read off the data sheet as an optimal performance (not maximum performance) it seems a reasonable assumption thar it would work.... If you buy a kettle you are told will boil water at 3kw you don't expect it to only hit 50 degrees at 250w max.... Or maybe more relatable a bearing rated to spin 4000rpm constant - 8000 max that constantly implode at 800rpm.... If they lie on the data sheet then how are you {the fitter} supposed to know any different unless you have had experience with that exact product before and know it's utter BS, what Kris does is bespoke and uses bespoke materials - how is he supposed to know any different when the data sheet lies? I'd like to see you take a custom spec sheet and hit the same and hit the nail on the head the 1st time...
I know it's frustrating Kris, but we are learning from you. Your equipment is fine, but now we know what to look out for from the other manufactures. I expect next week we will learn even more. Thank you for handling it so well. I hope this next week is better for you.
Keep learning kid, and your tenacity is admired. Lots of help around from the old school for those willing to ask.
As. Classic race car engineer, I’m really addicted to this channel it’s great to hear a guy with this amount of knowledge on the case
I can totally understand the frustration. But you are very thorough and smart enough to find a solution, which is why I love watching the channel. Good luck on this one Kris !👍👍
Kris, great work, bummer about the alternator windings being under sized.
One quick note, for 3 phase calculations, the formula for wattage is: P(W) = √3 × PF × I(A) × VL-L(V). P=power (in Watts), PF=Power Factor (you can assume 1 here), I=current (in Amps), VL-L=Volt, line to line (in Volts) this would be the voltage between phases.
To "solve" for Current, the formula is I = P / √3 PF x VL-L
Since the output is labeled as 220V, putting that into the formula gives you a current of 5.25A for an output of 2kW. Still more then that winding wire can handle.
Hope that is able to help some of your calculations for wires sizes in the future.
While your correct, the 3a rating isn't right that's for an over simplified insulated cable so very far under what it can actually do
@@shaynegadsden Based on the video it looks like the alternator has 12 coils. This matches with a 4 pole alternator for 3 phase power and is in the ballpark of the used rpm.
In this case there are 4 coils per phase in parallel, so the total current per phase with a 3A rated wire would be 12A per phase. So the alternater should be all right, because 2kW at 220V 3 phase is only 5.25A per phase.
It looks like the problem is the load for the alternator. As far as I can see it, the alternater is connected to a bridge rectifier which is connected to the inverter (practically a big capacitor) without any power factor correction at all. This is the worst case.
With a capacitiv or inductiv load on 3 phase power you get a phase shift between voltage and current (the power factor), but the current has still the shape of a sin-wave.
With a rectifier and capacitor like Kris you get no current flow as long as the sinusoidal voltage from the alternator is below the capacitor voltage of the inverter. After the rises above the capacitor voltage of the inverter you get a huge current flow. This occurres twice per rotation and has to deliver all the power to the inverter.
The problem is, that the wire (especially in the alternator) gets hot proportional the current squard by Ohmes law. So it is easily possible to produce 3 times the heat in the alternator with a "terrible" current waveform compared with a proper sinus waveform in e.g. a heater.
This is the main reason, why power companies demand power factor corrections for practically all power supplies, because otherwise the mains cables would get much hotter (and the power companies had to pay for the extra heat generated).
@Kris One way to solve your alternator problem is with a much bigger one to compensate for the excess heat production for the "terrible" waveform of the rectifier-inverter constellation. Another solution is to build in a power factor correction between the alternator and the inverter. Maybe a switch mode power supply from 3 phase to DC with a wide input range would do it, but I'm not shure. It depends on how the power supply would handle low input voltages an high output loads. Better power supply might simple turn off in the needed range of operation, cheaper ones might work.
@@Kubus-8472 well the rectifier has no effect and grid connect inverter are just a big switch mode power supply , honestly none of it would have much effect the main issue is heat management there is no airflow and a cover keeping the heat in
For 3 phase generators and motors the current per winding is not Power/voltage; it is (power/voltage)/( square root of 3). The square root of 3 is 1.732, so your 9 amps is actually 5.2 amps. Also you will find there are many windings of the small wire connected to the 3 main wires so the current is divided between these wires. When many wires are crammed into a tight space the current carrying capacity (due to temperature) is greatly reduced. I have found that the ratings of electrical products that are made in China are usually exaggerated. Best of luck with your great project.
The plate says that It’s rated for 220V not 415V. It’s single phase.
At 6:30 into the video, He shows the 3 phase rectifier and points to where the 3 phase wires enter the control box. Three phase motors and generators can be made for any desired voltage.@@MrSimonious
You have inspired me to leave London after 18 years and return to the valleys of Wales to get involved in forestry projects. Just need to find a job and a house now!
Kris, kudos to you for exposing the lies as you did. I can only imagine your frustration, but everyone who watches this channel knows you will more than make everything right in the end for your client. That water wheel is a work of art. And once done, I am certain it will run for years.
Very talented engineering here, great to see. You will get it working fine and then the alternators can be used for another project. Great to watch!
The old saying Buy cheap buy twice comes to mind ! Hope you get it sorted Kris
If the ampacity of the winding is ~3A, that is 3A per phase, which should give you ~9A combined. It would be interesting to see if the wire is in fact copper. I would guess that somewhere along the line the copper specified in the design has been substituted for copper-coated-aluminium which has a much lower ampacity as well as a lower service temperature. It might make sense to explore re-winding it yourself. Best of luck.
If I remember my schoolboy physics of many decades ago, Assuming the alternator is a delta winding, I don't think it would be 9 anps, the line current is not 3 times the phase current, it's the square root of 3 (1.73) multiplied the line current which would be 5.2 Amps I've probably got it wrong, but I'm sure someone will correct me if it is haha
It could also be a thicker insulation coating than designed for..
@@petejones1957 Correct. Getting a balanced 9A line current from a delta connected generator means a winding current of 5.22A. And in a wye connected generator means that line current is winding current.
@@TheJfast2surely there is more than one pole per phase on the generator? I’m curious about the Solis inverter. From a quick scan on the internet, it seems the inverter is a PV MPPT inverter which won’t be suitable for a PMA. It would need a controller with a calibrated power curve as do wind turbines.
@@TheJfast2 The consideration that also has to be made is the gross efficiency loss of running an alternator that is generating so much heat. That energy being dissipated as heat is kWh that the wheel is generating and the customer is not seeing in their electrical generation.
Running it long term would make a mockery of the work Kris has done to design an efficient wheel, even if it is capable of making more than the 2kWe he has designed it for. Chances are it would bake the lacquer on the windings and short internally fairly quickly, especially with loose winding wire hanging around in there.
As unfortunate as it is, I think Kris is on the right path with either an induction motor or finding a more reputable alternator supplier.
Wow! No one could have anticipated this kind of fraud. I'm floored. Chris, you are doing the entire community a real service!
The alternators do produce 2kW, only 600w is electricity, the rest is heat. Not really what is expected though.
@@cheeto4493also duty cycle and surge rating matters a lot. Inverters are bad for that too.
Everyone who has previously dealt with Chain: 'Yes, we could expect this type of fraud!'.
In the USA, some companies rate the horsepower of their vacuum cleaners, air compressors, etc. by multiplying the startup current by the voltage! So you get a surge start number as your "horsepower", which is usually about 2.5 times the running power.
This is exactly what people buying wind generation equipment are finding as well. The promoted generation numbers are often 10X of the true capabilities .
Super impressed with the change from the new nozzle/flu. Great job
Really valuable information . You help so many people with sharing this lesson. I would of made this the same mistake.
Looking around the UK for alternators, they are expensive (compared to Chinese) but the rating will be 100% guaranteed. I found one called the "stamford" in single or 3 phase outputs. They are also pretty heavy...like 75kg!
This does suggest that a larger chinese one, multiplying it by the chinese bullshit factor to get the right size, is still going to be the best deal.
@@herseem Not if the only thing different on the "larger" chinese one is the sticker...
@@herseem Indeed. Chinese factories DO make good stuff, but I've found they struggle with honesty. Most companies looking to offshore manufacturing to China end up posting their own QC team inside of the factory. They have to keep tabs on them, or they'll start cutting corners without telling you. I'm sure there are Chinese manufacturers that don't do this, but the general reputation for the nation has been sadly earned.
If you're willing to sort through the sea of cheap crap, there is some excellent stuff made over there.
@@WhyBeNick your experiences mirror mine
Kris, have a rewind done on that motor in thicker wire to give you the 2.5 3kw that your needing. Sure it can be done by a rewind company in the UK and be cheaper then the cost of your time and materials on reworking the mounts.
or rewind it your self
Exactly what I suggested to him. It's his cheapest fix if he was pleased with everything else on the alternator.
Unless I misunderstood, I believe he addresses that the proper sized copper wire required is 3-times larger in diameter and would not even fit in the existing case requiring a replacement unit so much larger that it will not even mount on his existing bracket or under the covering hood without at least modification.
To make it with a better quality wire and more windings and in effect would of saved the extra work in Part4
Forget the heater to slow it, just make a governor made with a car disk or drum brake, when it spins fast the centrifugal force pulls the brake cable. The same as what they used to use on old steam engines. This will work even in a flood and you have a milling machine, 2 weights attached to the main shaft, when they spin they fly out and pull a colar up the shaft which is attached to the handbrake part of a car disk drum brake.
Get an Induction generator with a proper drive for it, the type used for CNC machines can do the braking and control acceleration/ de-acceleration, forget using the solar charger to control the generator. Attaching a heater to an electric generator to stop over-speed when you are dealing with the chance of flood waters sounds like you want to come home with your house burnt to the ground and flooded :) but seriously a flood will mean the chance of a burnt out generator. Use an old steam engine style governor with brass balls that fly out and a big brake drum on your wheel, it will look awesome.
That winding you showed of the 3 phase alternator with the endshield removed, no phase insulation between phases and sustandard varnish on the winding which is suppised to hold
the winding together/firm so the individual wires cannot rub,vibrate against each other. Also have a look at the winding connection to the output leads to see if there is any
parallel connection of the individual winding wires...Keep up the great work, so so interesting.
I feel like in the grid outage scenario, you'd be better off with some form of solenoid released trapdoor in the channel which just releases causing all the water to be discharged before the water wheel, stopping the wheel. I feel like trying to use the dump resistor is just a real risk on many levels - if any component fails (which is quite probable in a rarely used emergency system), then there are quite a few different failure modes, some more spectacular than others. But above all else, assuming that dump resistor goes straight across the generator output, you're likely to get very low voltage and high current, potentially leading to the generator overheating issues you've already seen. The other option would a brake that brings the wheel to a controlled stop, but a trap door in the channel feels like the easiest solution, even if it requires a manual reset afterwards.
That or something that unwinds itself and just closes a dam to the waterwheel / opens the route to the bypass. I was thinking the same thing,
@@thomasvnlTrapdoor seems more failure tolerant. Any mechanical movement of the dam could be blocked by twigs, branches, etc.
@@paulreinhardt6052 gravity or momentum assisted movement might be a viable option though. Like keeping something closed unless power is released and therefore releasing like a spring to unwind and turn a lever/dam door. Something the likes of that comes to my mind. Of course, this would have to be refined but turning mechanical energy into a heater outdoor just seems silly to me (although I get why as it seems a very easy solution). But the issue Kris had already with the sudden torque after power was restored and the wheel was unloaded from the burden resistor shows this easy method needs refining as well.
@@thomasvnl I know nothing about this specifically, but I can’t imagine many many people haven’t already figured something out. Perhaps heater is a standard solution. Idk. 🤷🏻♂️
Or a grid solenoid controlled brake on the wheel.
Very frustrating 🙁
Fair play to you for having the skills and knowledge to work it out 👍🏻
Good luck with rectifying all the issues 🍀
This whole project is beautiful. What it does prove is how intelligent you are. As far as I am concerned you are a genius. How many people that purchase that item could figure out what the problem was? Not many, and that is what unscrupulous vendors are counting on. It confirmed my suspicions that you can't trust a lot of vendors over there. I bought a couple items that were made there and they fell apart because they are very poorly made with cheap materials. I am sorry you had that experience, but take courage that your projects are the epitome of quality. I am really enjoying your timber frame barn project. Keep up the excellent work. Tim
Problems arise now and then, but you persevere so good on you. I have enjoyed this series, thanks for filming it Kris
That's some pretty amazing troubleshooting skills you've got there. Clearly, they don't expect people to figure out they've been cheated. I bet you could make one of those alternators put it on the market and give those lying cheats a run for their money. That was a costly lesson. Yikes. I have faith you'll get it all sorted out.
Kris' 12 bore shotgun alternators should be a thing 😂😂😂 referring to 12 gauge windings to keep that thing running at full kaboom with minimal heat loss 👍
I think it can do 2kw when run at double or even triple the speed you were running it at before. A modified car alternator will do 2-3 kw continuous with less copper than this one. Forget what the tag says about rated rpm and what not, you just need to make sure the voltage doesnt exceed whatever that grid inverter is capable of. You already kinda hinted at this in the last video where the water wheel was spinning too fast but the alternator wasnt overheating.
Just a thought on the dump load / heater. The problem isn't the power wattage, you need the 2 kW in the end to burn off the power of the water wheel. The problem is the instant torque difference at the moment of switching from grid to the heater. You could solve this with an additional 500W heater and a timer relay. The first, let say 5 seconds of grid down, the power goes only to the 500W heater. Because it's smaller you don't get that torque shock. After 5 seconds, the timer relay adds the original 2000W heater to the load, making it 2500W. Great project, I keep following it. 👍
Look how far you’ve come, this is a tiny blip on your amazing journey of experience! You’re fantastic and inspiring as always, cheers Rob.
Quick tip; When modifying the generator guard, add some strategically placed venting holes. These generators, and especially synchronous motors rely on open air to properly cool. That might fix the overheating issue.
I thought attaching a radial vane fan to the drive pully inside the housing would turn the housing into a squirrel cage fan of sorts and remove that heat island effect around the alternator.
Venting holes pose a risk of water ingress. On the other hand, since there is plenty of cool flowing water at hand, a good thermal connection to the housing might be a good idea, then a little water could be diverted to cool the housing.
I would add fan blades to the pulley to aid in cooling
Still not going to be enough. That chart he showed is about gauge of wire and carrying capacity with it's known resistance and the thermals that will generate. Sure you might cool it down a couple degrees, but that chart is basic physics and there's no way you're going to get from 650 W to 1.5 kW. Those wires will fry long before that :(
why dont he use copper pipes warped around the generator and same water to take away the heat to get atleast 20 percent more power output comfortably
You are helping a lot of people avoiding frustrations with this video! Think about it, I bet you will feel a bit better! One solution could be to rise the rpm (Higher voltage means lower currents). For this you have to make sure the wire isolation is rated for the higher voltage and also the maximum input voltage of the inverter. (The inverter input voltage could be fixed with an transformator before the rectifier, its another thing you have to add but maybe worth if you have to change the whole design instead...). Hope the ideas help!
I wanted to make the same suggestion . When you double the speed the voltage also doubles. The iron losses will also double. But I think the losses of the current are much higher. I am wondering if the currents in the generator are sinusoidal. Is there a bride rectifier?
The 220v on the label is also very confusing. Does it mean the rectified voltage, the phase to ground voltage or the phase to phase voltage. Normally there are two numbers one for phase to ground and phase to phase.
Personally I don’t think it will help. It the power that is generating the heat not just the current. Up the voltage and drop the current the power (kw) is the same
@@johnwarwick4105 the current is doing the losses not the voltage or the power
@@johnwarwick4105 its the current what generates the heat, not the power! (Actually the friction of the moving electrons trough the metal wire)
I love this series and particularly that you name and shame the charlatans who are mis-selling wares. They need exposing for the liars that they are. After being sold crap like this myself, I'll never again buy from Aliexpress. They would not accept a return from me even though it was not the goods i had ordered.
Otherwise... this series is absolute gold Kris. I'm inspired by your work and I've started building a wind turbine to supplement my solar.
it is so good that someone that knows what he is talking about . keep it up.
You're like an industrial detective. Sherlock Harbour. Love it!
Your work is brilliant Kris, and this issue relates directly to basic dishonesty on the supplier's behalf, a problem I have run into time after time with Chinese suppliers unfortunately.
I have learned a lot from this video of yours! Thank you very much! Keep it up!
Fascinating and a Beautiful work of art!!!
A good honest episode. A lesson learnt. If you find a suitable replacement, you could use the lathe as a test bed, having made a fixture for it.
might be an interesting project to have an automated sluice gate controlled by the frequency from the alternator to "tune" the waterflow to maximum efficency.
My thoughts as well. Actuator that could control flow
It would need to be well designed so if anything fails, anywhere, the sluice closes.
How about using a gate valve like they do in refineries..That is powered by electric 😊😊😊
No need for complicated system, a purely mechanical system can do it. A floating buoy on an arm can open and close the overflow sluice gate to keep the water at the right level behind the dam. If the level is constant, the flow on the wheel will be constant.
@@niconico3907 how would the float know the load on the alternator. If there's no load you need less water so the system needs to be triggered by wheel speed not water level
Ah man, what a pain! These things are sent to test us sometimes! Great job mate! Stick with it! All the best.
It’s only a stupid mistake if you make it twice. This has still showcased your work as top drawer. More work will come, and your a wiser kris now. Really enjoyed this project 👌
You may already have experienced this: every redo always turns out better. The school of doing is one hell of a teacher! Clear your mind and go at this anew, as if it is new … because it is new, again and so is the day.! 👍 You are mastering this as you go; just don’t be dangerous.
Would be great if a UK-based alternator manufacturer might see this and get involved! I guess on the "bright" side you have a spare 600w alternator and a heater that might work on future projects. Thanks for doing the hard, painful work to inform us all of such pitfalls. And, despite a setback here and there, I continue to have: No. Doubt. In my mind.
Yea I was thinking for non-critical home projects without a customer. But most important, the UK-based alternator manufacturers need to take notice! @BreatheScotland
@@CharlesKiblinger - I thought ALL manufacturing was done in China or India.
@@cmmartti - No disagreement. I have received many working devices from China, I have never received a NiMH battery from China that comes anywhere near spec, same for flashlight intensities, and I've tried many.
A desultory google search turned up "Stamford | AvK." But I bet the prices ain't the same.... :) @@jrstf
Hi Kris, great video ( as always) I would have extended the shute feeding the water to the top of the wheel a tad more to give the wheel more energy from the force of the water.
Also, I would have made the shaft "through" the wheel to accept the whole torque and use course threads as opposed to welds.
Apart from that I would give yourself a 10/10 for a fine job......keep up the vids and great work.
Most online sales are not to be trusted, and I really hope you get it all sorted out. I really like the whole waterwheel power projects, so it would be very nice to see it fully working at max power without getting too hot or break.
3 amps in that size wire is a pretty conservative rating, you can get very high temperature enamel (>200C) and the insulation cooking is the real limiting factor. The chart you flashed up is talking about domestic wiring in PVC, totally different kettle of fish (melts at ~80C)
Exactly this, take a look at the windings in any transformer found in domestic appliance. i.e. microwave. They are very thin, and it's just fine
But he literally tested it and it was getting unreasonably hot well before the rated output. Obviously something isn’t up to snuff there.
High temperatures are a bad idea for a whole raft of reasons. Higher energy at lower current requires more voltage. More voltage needs higher shaft speed. That alternator is a non starter, the dreadfull winding quality is totally unsuited to high voltage.
@@brianpennington4202 Yes, shouldn’t the generator be actively cooled?
@@brianpennington4202 Enamelled wire isn't needed on something that doesn't get up to 80C. They're designed to run hot, this isn't a laptop that needs to be safe to touch
I get that you probably need to move it occasionally for clearance, but i can only imagine how much easier that sheet metal roller would be to use if it was semi-permanently fixed down.
May I suggest braked castors
Or could it be motorised - hopefully a bit simplified than water wheel project
Keep your head up Kris, I’m sure it will all come good. You’ve put a lot of hard work in so far, tackled many teething issues, made improvements, and so one day soon you will have everything running as planned and will have learned many valuable lessons along the way, which is what life is all about. Further, your product will be better refined for the next customer. Looking forward to your next video!
I admire your tenacity. Keep at it, document your lessons learned, and carry on!
Kris, problem solving is what you do - I have every confidence that you’ll sort it! Also lots of great advice from the electromotive geeks and engineers in the comments. There’s some gems in there I’m sure.
All is not lost. Thank you for putting in the time on this. The world is a better place for it! Cheers! Keep on keeping on.🥃
You’re a proper inspiration Kris. There’s so much in your videos that should be shown, particularly to young men. Not exclusively, but to those boys that school isn’t really working for. You’ve got a great skill set, and your get it done, and properly, attitude is nothing short of exceptional. The modern world needs more of you mate. Great work. If I had a son, I’d be sending him to you to turn into a man!
Get an ambulance alternator with 150 amperes...thick good wires to handle even your welding machine
Please check what is the ideal RPM recommend for the manufacturer of the alternator...Adjust the settings of the gears you are using...my opinion is that you are using too much torque ...if the water flux is for instance ten liters per second, you are easily putting 150 kilograms on the alternator with the diameter of that wheel you built...my opinion is that the alternator could be running at very low RPM with too much torque. Keep me posted, please. I would like to see if we can move from trial and error to "builders of hydroelectrics via Vertical Water Displacement!
Not your fault, the time and effort that you put into your progects is always worth the reward.
That is horrible. I have no doubt that you have proven to your customers your effort, reliability and quality are not to blame for this issue. Really really sucks to think that you're almost done and then have it get screwed up like this. Super proud of the work you do even if you aren't always. :)
Great video Kris. Too bad that you had this issue but it is totally inspiring that you keep going and do whatever it takes to get it right. I cannot wait for the next video. And furthermore I think these videos should be shown in schools because you are one hell of a guy who is prepared to have a go at anything and do it really well.
So love the methodical testing. Really nice to watch and learn!
A wonderful reminder of yesteryear and the grain mills that changed the world. Your work is beautiful and practical. Looking forward to the improved model.
That's why critical electrical components must be either from reputable sources or tested prior to installation.
I'm so sorry I couldn't see the finished water wheel generator but, I'm delighted that you are going in such depth to inform everybody to all the inner works of such interesting and realistic projects.
"Look at that angle.... perfect" I know too well the pride that comes from something that goes as you hope, but that has generated so much anxiety... Really top work!!
Very rare- an extremely intelligent guy with an extremely practical grasp on things. Possibly a wee bit jealous!
In a 3 phase generator the power is split between the phases. Each phase delivers 1/3 of the power. Your calc for wire size should be 666 watts at 220v is 3 amps. In cars there is often a fan on the alternator shaft to keep the alternator cool. You might be able to fit a second alternator on one belt to spread the load but you'll need to rectify that separately and put the two rectifier outputs in parallel. This is the most professional water wheel I've seen in modern times. Looks beautiful.
Indeed, however that 3 amp rating is for open air wires, not bundled. This constraint is briefly shown at the top of the chart on the phone. How much the actual amperage is depends on the thermal configuration of the alternator. Given enough cooling this alternator could work as specified, so the 'theoretical maximum' is actually correct.
Rather than redesigning the whole system, which seems a rather massive task, maybe a water based cooling system would be easier.
Impressive setup and very well done. I hope you get things sorted out.
Wattage delivered from a 3 phase generator is calculated using the square root of 3 if you know the phase current.
W=1.73 x phase current x voltage x power factor.
:)
@@JOHNTHE8TH1 Is that true when the phases are rectified to DC? I thought that was for a 3 phase load where the phases are connected in a wye. With a rectifier AC doesn't flow between phases - the load doesn't see peak-to-peak voltage between phases
@@senorjp21 think of it this way.
only the phase with the highest voltage will conduct to the dc circuit through the rectifying diodes. the phase may still be on the positive side of the cycle but it will stop conducting once another phase takes over, so most of the sine wave of each phase isn’t used and the power transferred cannot be a straight multiplication by 3.
It's cool to see how your skills and shop/homestead have progressed over the years, I've been binge watching your Playlist over the last month. Thanks for all the inspiration and great vids.
Well done my friend you have a great knowledge so don't beat yourself up you have done a excellent job in your work and your diagnosis take care and well done regards Alan and Ella.
Hi,Kris. I had a lot of involvement with a water wheel/alternator installation at an old mill building. My part in the project was making many mechanical parts to get the pulleys ,shafts,pillow blocks and all the belt tension adjusters etc for the toothed belts. The installation I worked on used wind turbine 'pancake' style alternators with the wind turbine blades removed and a custom taper lock hub fitted to mount toothed pulleys instead of the wind blades. This system is 3 phase with 3 alternators all being driven by the same countershaft and each alternator being switchable for in or out of the system depending on how much water flow is available at the time. You might have some joy by looking at what 'pancake' wind turbine alternators may fit into your limited space at the drive end.
I loved the detective work of the wire etc.
thanks for the video, I was talking with someone about this process of power generation 2 days ago, and you have just taught me so much in a single 40 minute video. Lots of food for thought here.
Great video, I used to work for a world renowned hydroelectric turbine company from the lakes, and travelled all over the world doing installs and the number of times we would come across projects with Chinese hardware and the customer would tell us that it wouldn t produce what they stated was crazy, also kit would fail very quickly due to inferior materials used.
Take it as a lesson learnt and carry on with your great projects, your doing great
I do enjoy your updates on this project. I’ll be waiting for your next updates.❤
Great work. A nice way to finish stainless after welding is a scotchbrite pad on an orbital sander with kerosene.
Be mindful of cutting stainless on your plasma, it can generate a large amount of hexavalent chromium which isn't very healthy (ask Erin Brokavich). A downdraft exhaust fan is probably worth considering.
Keep up the good work, love it!
I know how frustrating this has been for you - but seeing you dismantle their BS so succinctly was immensely satisfying and I'm glad they've been outed - these types of things drive me MAD and I love it when they get their comeuppance
They often make the windings using several thiner wires in parallel rather than single thick ones. Not only it is easier to manufacture but in fact it has some advantages too because windings fill the gap in the core better. But the problem is it has to be properly connected to terminals which is not always the case.
Love these hydro power videos and why I originally came to the channel. I think what you are experiencing is super normal when you rely on subcontractors. Keep up the good work.
What a great job you have done on the whole setup it's just a shame people lie for profit which wastes everybody's time and effort. It's very valuable information for anyone else who is looking into doing the same thing though. Great video 👍❤️💛💚
WOW! I'M SUPER IMPRESSED WITH THE SHOOT SPLASH IMPROVEMENT! AMAZING ENGINEERING!
Hi Chris , I enjoy all of your videos.
On this actual video, you are frustrated because of the poor performance.
As a retired elctrical ingeneer from Denmark,I could suggest you to contact a electro mechanic and ask Them if it is possible to get rid of the poor windings and put in new coils with insulation that are rated for very High temperatures. Class F is rated for 130˚C if I recall it right.
It is possible to apply new windings in the original motor with a vacuum resin treatment that gives extra improved cooling.
You could consider applying a kind of external cooling (I mean you have coolingwater at hand😎)
God luck and best wishes.
This is absolutely amazing Kris, I'm so inspired!
I'm sad about the device not matching to specifications. Amazing how you were able to get them to admit it in the end. You were sold nothing but a bald-faced lie. In the meantime, the 316 stainless nozzle was a work of art and thing of great beauty in action. Bravo! Keep up the great work!
Excellent work and video! Might I suggest, your shafts and hardware need nickel-anti-seize paste when assembling. It will make assembly and future maintenance much easier, especially in a wet environment.
You’ve proved what I thought, I’d been looking at those cheap Chinese pma generators to build a wind turbine because I need a 380v pma, I was suspicious about the output figures so glad I’ve not bought one, back to the drawing board for me….
Lessons learned are always the biggest expense of any job. Really enjoy your videos Kris thanks for sharing
it used to be so simple, you ran the water wheel to work the mill that crushed grain. Now you have to deal with voltages, alternators, etc and not only do you need your design to work but now you have to double check other peoples design!
Great video! hope to see it working one day