DEBATE: w Gavin Ortlund | Sola Scriptura (Part 1)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 жов 2021
- Part 1 (of 2) of a discussion between Jimmy Akin and Gavin Ortlund of Truth Unites on the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura ("by scripture alone").
Gavin's channel Truth Unites: / truthunites
Gavin's original "Sola Scriptura DEFENDED" video: • Sola Scriptura Defended
My recent article on Sola Scriptura: jimmyakin.com/2021/10/a-new-ap...
I explore the argument in the linked article in this discussion, particularly in part 2 (forthcoming).
I find comfort in knowing an intellegent mind like Jim Akin is on our side.
Same
Um...I believe we're on the same side actually.
@@mj6493 um... the clue is the name "pro-test-ant" ....some/a lot of protestants even go as far as to say that the Catholic Church is satanic.
@@Dannyboy0202 I wouldn't base my opinion of Protestants on the most shrill voices among us. And I hope you know that the name "Protestant" was not a self designated descriptor. Most of us think of ourselves as part of the same Church founded at Pentecost. And, yes, I know that Roman Catholics have a different view on that.
@@mj6493 protestants are outside the Church and go to hell
Simply superb. Thank you, gentlemen.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
@@mynameis......23 Tldr. Also, copying and pasting something so long so that no one will respond to you is an illegal debate tactic.
@@mynameis......23
Catholicism was not “debunked” by anything that you wrote. You made too many points in one post.
Point one: Jimmy Akin debunks your debunking of Mary in Luke where the woman says to Jesus “blessed is the womb that bore you…”
Look up Jimmy Akin, “Blessed are the breasts” on his website. The word “rather” is better translated as “and”.
(Catholics do not venerate Mary’s breasts or uterus by the way. The utterance by the woman in Luke in no way makes sense to Catholics as far as what we venerate about Mary: it’s not her body, it’s her ontological essence. She is most blessed among women as Elizabeth said). This debunking is debunked.
@@mynameis......23
Your silliness about “calling no man ‘father’ shows just how poorly you understand much of anything. Paul called himself “father” to those he was teaching.
“In his First Letter to the Corinthians, St. Paul says, “For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor 4:15). This is particularly significant because he is claiming a spiritual role of fatherhood for himself.”
The use of the biological term ‘father’ was used by Jesus and Paul numerous times. What Jesus meant is “put no man above your Father in heaven”, since God is our true father. To say “call no man father” means “make” no man above your father in heaven. Holy cow dude, we all call our biological fathers by that appellation. Jesus referred to Father Abraham.
That argument is so stupid it’s embarrassing.
@@mynameis......23
Many of your points are just proof texts out of context and don’t seem to prove anything against catholic doctrine.
I appreciate the mutual graciousness of this conversation. I respect Dr. Ortlund's historical honesty and nuanced thinking. Great video as always, Jimmy!
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
I’ve never read a more confused polemic.
Ortlund is anything but honest historically, he has been debunked and exposed for forging quotes
Very Shallow arguments and not based on historical and biblical research..
This is what dialogue looks instead of debate, hence my preference in this type of format. 👉🏼📺👍🏼
Agreed. Rather refreshing, don’t you think.
I agree
Good works, good deeds. I volunteer way too much.
Both Jimmy and Gavin have reputations for being gentle with their debating styles. Very respectful of each other.
This type of open dialogue is much more relaxed, and a more in depth discussion without one or the other getting defensive while citing specific perspectives and beliefs. Easier for listeners to be engaged and track with the discussion in a non-emotional way.
Another Baptist Pastor in the room! Thanks Gavin for articulating our stances so very clearly and competently. And to Jimmy, wonderful job as well, you went into Catholicism, I came out of it. You are a very polite in your arguments.
Thank you, and God bless you, Pastor!
Catholicism gets the best Protestants and protestantism gets the worst Catholics
This is one of the most productive Catholic/Protestant discussions I’ve ever heard.
Mr. Jimmy, you are a gem. I'm reformed, Anglican, South African, but please accept my compliments to your style, knowledge, conduct and rigor. I'm always learning something new with you and Dr. Gavin.
I mean, now I can't wait to use "Florilegium" in a sentence.
I really appreciate the respectful and honest conversation. As a protestant who has become quite interested in Catholicism, I am grateful for the presentation. I have become a fan of Jimmy Akins Mysterious World through EWTN that I listen too regularly. Much respect for both of these gentlemen.
Thomas, think about this. Jesus never commanded anyone to write 27 Books and to call it the NT.
The NT is part of the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church.
Plus, why would it take 20-25 years to write the first Book of the NT IF sola scriptura was true?
I understand the natural draw for some towards sola scriptura. However, Jesus established a living church and even the NT states the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.
WHY? Because the church is led to the truth by the Holy Spirit. We see that happen in Acts re salvation.
@@annapennrose1158 Biblical argument for the canon of Scripture Hebrews 12:1“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience: the race that is set before us,” Jude 1:3“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Notice" so many witnesses e.g., Aramaic, Greek, Coptic, Latin, and other churches in the majority have received 27 books once delivered, so the 27-book canon agrees with Scripture. Paul, say we received the oracles of God from the Jews, so the Protestant OT books agree with Scripture. The mayor of Vatican City not so much. And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. Exodus 24:12
Praying rosary to Lady Carmel to get souls out of purgatory is not only not biblical is diabolical
@@annapennrose1158 lolo😅😅😅 the nt is written in Greek 😂😂 .
@@albusai I NEVER said it wasn't written Greek. lol :) :) ;)
I have to say, I appreciate both of your dispositions....a respectful dialogue where you can disagree without being condescending and without sacrificing your covictions. well done to you both.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.✝️✝️✝️✝️
I'm so glad this happened! I was literally thinking a while back about how great it would be if Jimmy and Dr. Ortlund could discuss Sola Scriptura.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
@@mynameis......23
You have no explanation for the bread of life discourse problem in John chapter 6: why did many disciples leave Jesus when He said “unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no life in you”. If Jesus wanted crackers and wine parties in his honor, the disciples would not have been scandalized. The Eucharist is real; you’re fake news. Sad for you.
I wish Protestants won’t always copy and paste all the time and use their minds in reasoning out .
@@mynameis......23really? No one can read all that!
What I really appreciate about this dialogue is that - instead of a six-minute, rapid-fire gish gallop of information in a debate - we can have both sides go through the data, carefully, one or two points at a time, while clarifying positions.
And that’s definitely what I watched here. Very informative.
Thanks, Akin and Ortlund!
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.✝️✝️✝️
@@mynameis......23 catholic is the greek for universal... thus we all inherently believe in a catholic church without reserve... and the catholic doctrines as well as practices most closely imitate the earliest forms of worship and Christianity found in the early Church... and thats a fact
I really appreciate this video and the work both of you put into having the discussion. Helpful! Now on to part 2...
As a recent convert to the Catholic Church (qualifier, I came in through the Eastern Byzantine rite) from a tribe within Protestantism very similar to Gavin's (his father was my pastor for a couple years), this conversation was edifying, delightful, and gave me hope that we might be closer to fulfilling our Lord's prayer as He was staring down the barrel of the passion (John 17) than I dared think. Jimmy, Gavin, there's something going on here that's bigger than both of you. Do this again...once a month.
But do you know Jesus personally?
Its not called a passion, thats your own opinion.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
@@mynameis......23 calling the Lord's church " catholic " is not wrong within itself since it just means universal. The word was actually used early on in church writers.
Going against the papacy, mostly Peter being "the rock" nonsense in Matt 16:18 I refer to the prophecies in OT that speaks of "foundation " and "stone/rock". Psalm 118:22 Jesus mentions Himself, Isaiah 8:14-15 & Isaiah 28:16 are interpreted by Peter and Paul as referring to Jesus Christ, not Peter being the "foundation " the church was built on. So Peter could ONLY be "a rock" instead of "THE ROCK" and that's in harmony with Eph 2:20.
So by having inspired prophecies being INTERPRETED by inspired apostles as making Jesus Christ as being the rock/stone foundation settles the catholic denominations misinterpretation of Matt 16:18
@@mynameis......23 wasn’t Mary a believer?
3:58, 4:26, 5:10, 19:48, 21:23, 27:30,
29:19, 30:26 - Clarifying Sola Scriptura
7:19, 8:01, 8:35 - Reaching agreement
9:02, 9:40, 9:59, 10:08 - Why was there disagreement in the past?
10:38, 11:03, 12:36 - Translations
11:52 - Jehovah’s Witnesses
14:02, 15:22, 15:47, 17:24, 18:25 - Did Catholicism push back against translations for the common folk in general, or just certain translations?
17:45, 17:58 - Fascinating history
28:07 - How to avoid caricatures
32:06 , 32:11 - How does the Westminster Confession of Faith handle tradition?
37:26 - What is the Church’s role in a Sola Scriptura framework?
37:48, 38:39 - Akin’s response
39:17, 40:16, 41:09, 41:28, 47:46 - Sola Scriptura before the Reformation?
42:35, 43:14 - Ortlund’s word of caution concerning the church writers
46:27, 47:46 - Cyril of Jerusalem
47:16 - Aquinas and Augustine on…
49:34, 56:24 - Akin’s take on Sola Scriptura before the Reformation
50:28, 50:36, 52:43, 52:58 - Akin elaborates on the church writers
50:58, 51:37 - Akin on the Gnostics in the 2nd century
52:05 - Akin on other contexts where scripture is emphasized
53:49, 53:58, 54:18 - Gavin’s response to Akin’s balanced view of the church writers
54:57, 55:18, 56:09 - Correct view of Catholic teaching about scripture and tradition
It's a privilege to listen to these stalwarts dialog. Thank you for doing this!
Two super intelligent, open minded and informed theologians discussing their differences .... Note: I am glad to be Catholic ;-)
But do you know Jesus personally and talk with him and he with you?
@@wojo9732 yes, all the time!
@@stephanelarochelle2484 What makes catholics sound silly is the fact the worship being a catholic instead of belonging to Christ. If you were the only person on earth, you could still be saved and know Jesus : )
@@wojo9732 prior to the reformation, to say you were Christian meant something. Today it has little meaning, since there is no unity.
When someone tells you they are Catholic, they lay it out there for your benefit. They are saying, “I trust Jesus and the Church HE built for us and in HIS wish for us to be one, as He and the Father are one.”
I notice you don’t bother identifying with a particular ecclesial community. When Protestants don’t identify themselves this way, several things come to my mind
-they don’t think it matters
-they aren’t prepared to explain their faith
-they are about to attack my faith and they find it easier to do it without defending their particular ideas
-they like to call Catholics “silly” for no other purpose, but to feel superior.
@@mikelopez8564 Jesus is the Christ the Son of the living God. Have no other Gods before him nor make any graven image.
Such a great dialogue! Thank you both for this fine example of respectful dialogue. Can’t wait for part 2
This has officially made my day!! God bless you brothers!!! This should be first of MANY videos of the two of you together.
Mr. Akin, I appreciate that you always keep your listeners in mind when you’re discussing. Many debaters seem to be having private debates and leave us watching feeling leftout and confused.
This was a fantastic dialogue! Please do more on other subjects! Both of you are great representatives of your traditions.
Thank you so much for this dialog. I learned a lot. To both of you, your demeanor while discussing these topics was a breath of fresh air as there often is so much vitriol in Protestant-Catholic interactions that dialog is impossible. Thank you again.
Really enjoyed seeing this dialogue. I've spoken to Dr. Ortlund in the past and appreciated that his attempt to find a better tenor for these discussions.
I'm glad this discussion led to Gavin clarifying how the term Gospel is used in American evangelical circles. As an Indian evangelical protestant, I found it hard to understand the American usage of it.
Great stuff! Looking forward to part 2.
Proper interpretation of scripture is serving it. Improper interpretation certainly will lead to error. If the protestants could solve their disputes from the Bible alone then they wouldn't have any disputes by now. They had 1500 years of work by the catholic church to go by and another 500 years of their own time to figure it out and what we see is more denominations over time not less.
This was a fantastic discussion to listen to. I appreciate the candor of both speakers.
Nice job to both of you. You both have very similar styles but they weren't in conflict, but complemented each other. I hope to see more conversations between the two of you in the future.
Looking forward to this. Seems like a constructive dialogue. God bless you and Gavin
Thank you, Jimmy and Dr. Ortlund for a very informative and cordial discussion.
Thank you so much!
I'm what one might call 'middle aged' and coming from Ireland I have always known one thing, that our Protestants brothers are not my enemies..I need to understand them, and 'language' in particular modern day and historic keeps us away.
In saying that, I'm so glad that 'conversation' has pushed it's wisdom into more than just TV!
I'm so glad for 'conversation'...and it has made me really want as a Catholic to get down there and understand my brothers and sisters!
I really hope the same is true, because truth be told I have also felt that perhaps even though there are BIG ideas.....I've never really seen awful people...just people.
I see their love of Christ no doubt!
I love them!
The issue is that Rome declares magisterium to be equivalent to Scripture but only Rome determines the meaning of Scripture. So no one needs Scripture because Rome gives you the meaning. Sola Scriptura defends us against such things.
The church, which Jesus founded Matt 16 18-19 is the pillar of Truth and predates the inerrant bible which she codified in 382. Sacred Tradition exists alongside the bible which does not contain everything Jn 21 25. Protestantism relies on sola fide and sola Scriptura which are not biblical. Apart from removing 7 books, Luther also added the word ALONE to Rom 3:28 contradicting James 2:24
@@geoffjsinstead of memorizing a script like a Muslim, have you ever considered thinking for yourself?
This was pretty good, God bless you both 🙏🙏🙏
Fab and interesting discussion. So enjoyable. Love how you were both so friendly, charitable and respectful of each other's views on this issue.
God bless you always Jimmy... tremendous work that you do for the faith, your my #1 pick as a catholic apologetic
Jimmy and Gavin! Finally!!!
I was very pleased to see this.
What a nice dialogue between two Christians!
I like this format. I like that it is cordial and laid back but that you’re also pushing back against each other. Debates are often not super helpful, but then there are also lots of dialogues where people are trying so hard not to debate that they don’t actually get to the crux of the matter and really dig into how and why they disagree. I think you guys straddle that line really well here!
An amazing and very informative discussion. Very cordial and respectful. I have a better understanding and appreciation of Sola Scriptura now.
Memento mori. Interesting discussion. The bit about Sola Scriptura not working before the 1400s due to cost was interesting.
These guys are so smart and thoughtful! What a blessing they both are!
This set the bar for how these dialogs should go from now on.
As an evangelical currently considering the claims of Catholicism and having seen a large number of videos on this subject, I have to say this is the most constructive, charitable and productive discussion I've come across. I come away feeling like I understand the nuances of both positions more clearly. Thank you Jimmy and Gavin! Can't wait for part 2 amd I strongly encourage you to keep these kinds of fruitful dialogues coming :)
Consider the claims of Orthodoxy 👍
I know this comment is about a year old. I know you were considering Catholicism. Whether you did or not, or are still on your journey, just know that taking your time, reading reliable sources, listening to Catholic Answers, and praying about it etc.. is the way to go. If you do decide to enter the Catholic Church, it will be such a life changing, fulfilling and beautiful thing, but you need to be ready because it's a process.
Wherever you end up in your journey, I will say a prayer for you.
-From a life long Catholic ❤️
@@Jilli8310can God lead you away from the Catholic Church? Because I did exactly what you suggested. Over the last 10 years, I have studied the church fathers extensively. I have watched thousands of hours worth of videos and debates between different positions. I’ve prayed non-stop. With all that being said, I find the Roman Catholic claims completely untenable and I believe the Lord has led me into Orthodoxy. I wish you the best on your own faith journey.
updates?
Did you ever make a decision? I'm in the same boat boat
looking forward to part 2
It will be out tomorrow (Thursday) morning!
"The Norming Norm that is not Normed"
Years of watching Cheers make this an especially amusing alliteration.
Excellent conversation, lots of information was presented here. Thank you!
Absolutely wonderful discussion. Not everyone will agree with you guys, but hopefully we can get all Christians to agree that this is at least how we would expect Christians to behave towards each other for the most part.
Both are civil, and honest in regards to their position. Thank you for this video.
Good and civil debate.
So nice to hear dr Gavin on thos. His words reinforce my evangelical convinctions. Thanks to you both.
Have been really looking forward to this and I do not agree with Dr. Ortlund but I wish he had more time to speak in this conversation. Though I I appreciate Jimmy Akin's careful and considerate thoughts very much.
Happy Easter Jimmy!
This was an amazing discussion. I appreciate Jimmy Akin challenging his protestant doctrine and presuppositions in a respectful and charitable way. Everything sounds good until it's tested!
And I must add Dr.Gavin is a class act too. Even when he doesn't have an answer he's honest enough to admit and say he will get back to you. Much respect to that!
Thank you for these videos.
Jimmy is polite, but can I offer this observation: I think if you went back and added up the time he spent talking vs Dr. Ortlund, it will be clear that Jimmy takes a lot of air-time, which is odd when you have a guest on your show to present his views on Scripture.
"The Church didn't give us the Bible; it recognized the Bible."
A false dichotomy in my view.
The Church was and is composed of individuals with individual opinions BUT they were are all part of the Church - the people who wrote the books and the people who later read them.
So in that sense, of course the Church gave us the Bible. No doubt.
Individuals differed but over time the recognition coalesced into the official canon not least because the members of the hierarchy at some point declared the official canon after which no doubt was possible without committing heresy.
To summarize, the Church gave us the canon and then recognized it.
As pointed out by mostly Catholics, the disciples went everywhere preaching the Good News even WITHOUT the New Scriptures/ the New Testament books in hand. Maybe one or some certainly not all. They did that even before all the books were written.
Sola Scriptura was literally impossible at that time.
Not only that, even the concept that there would be a new set of scriptures outside the Jewish scriptures was formed in the bosom of the Church Catholic - among the people that comprised it.
Christ did not predict a new set of scriptures.
No mention whatsoever.
It was the CHURCH that realized both the concept of a new set of scriptures AND the books that belonged in that category.
What Jesus clearly mentioned was assigning PEOPLE properly deputized by HIM to teach His truths - not books that those people would later produce. Some of those writers were apostles some laymen but they were all Body of Christ - in other words, the Church.
He prophesied and instituted HIS CHURCH.
AND gave certain people a certain level of authority.
He breathed upon them, SOME mind you - not all. See Romans 12:5
"As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.” When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.” John 20:21
That is to be given authority. That is to be deputized.
Only God can forgive sins but these are his deputies who received the Master's breath.
In 2 Timothy 3:16, Paul states, “All Scripture is God-breathed.."
But Christ did not breath on the "new" scriptures - they were not even mentioned at that time much less written.
He left that to the Church through the people who were given authority.
That is the Church, duly authorized and deputized by the Master, that gave us the NEW scriptures and then subsequently recognized them.
Both speakers are well informed and polite. Great job from both
Thank you for this excellent discussion, amazing! I learned a ton.
I am commenting because I want this channel to grow :)
Not catholic myself, but always appreciated Jimmy during my days when I was considering it.
Excellent discussion.
Very charitable discussion - both "parties" are just wonderful.
Thank you Jimmy you are poised as always. I enjoy listening to you articulate about different issues. Your grasp of doctrine and christology makes my heart sing. I am grateful to learn more from you. The more understanding I gain from debates and discussions like this strengthens my faith.
What a careful and gracious discussion.
Regarding Mr. Akin's point around the 1:00 mark about the availability of scripture to most people through most of church history, my initial impression is that this would cut the other way. That is, even if scripture was always the final and only infallible authority, in circumstances in which most people did not have access to it or familiarity with it, that authority would necessarily be mediated through (or in some sense transferred to) those with access to the scriptures - the Fathers, bishops, and more broadly the Magisterium of the church.
However, when the scriptures become more universally available, if people gain more direct familiarity with them and come to the conclusion that the tradition or Magisterium has *not* been faithfully conveying the actual teaching of the scriptures in certain areas, then it forces a reconsideration and clarification of where the final authority truly lies. That seems a natural point for the doctrine to be clarified.
Agree it has been a pleasant informative discussion. You return to the problem of who and how scripture is interpreted, who is to say weather or not Tradition or the Magisterium has been faithful or not, especially if both are guided by the Holy Spirit. Who of us is qualified to unequivocally determine a teaching is in direct opposition to scripture. For this reason councils are called to clarify understanding, the system makes sense.
And this is exactly why I really don't know who is truly right. I wouldn't even call myself a Protestant (a label given to me by orthodox and catholics) since I don't want to protest. I simply have problems with practises on both sides.
LORD, have mercy on us...
@@wishyouthebest9222 perhaps the name 'protestant' would be more acceptable if you look to it's origins as a political class: namely some regional governments protesting the repeal of an imperial law allowing freedom of conscience regarding religion. (Wikipedia is a good starting point here)
@@j.g.4942 What gain is in this?
@@wishyouthebest9222 that the first protestants were named so specifically for supporting freedom of conscience in the Holy Roman Empire, rather than a generic 'protest' that you said you didn't like?
Prostestant who loves Jimmy’s point on the printing press. Really cool idea. Loved this discussion.
Well, another Protestant losing a debate and exposing Protestant error. What a priori bias Gavin expresses in his argument ...
Great dialogue and I really enjoyed this!
I want to express something that I don’t think is addressed well enough by the RCC, but I struggle with how to address it because I acknowledge it comes across very hostile. But take this from a Sola Scriptura Protestant that is very open to the Catholic tradition:
The reason Sola Scriptura is necessary for the church is due to the failings and corruption of the medieval era RCC that condemned Catholic theologian John Wycliffe and Catholic priest Jan Huss for their challenging errant papists justifying truly corrupt lifestyles. Jan Huss rebuked the church for its role in indulgences and simony for example, and the RCC burned him alive as a heretic and dressed him in demonic robes to mock him. The history on this issue is so gruesome that two popes have now apologized for the church’s role in the story of Jan Huss. There is simply no justifying the condition of the RCC in this era. It was so sinfully depraved that it was more of a political institution than a religious one. Papists referred to the pope as “Our Lord and God on earth - The Pope.” They bought, sold, and traded church offices for power, not for religious service. They whored in brothels, drank, gambled, murdered, committed genocides against fellow Christians for challenging the papists and their debauchery.
I don’t see how the RCC can reconcile its broken condition from that era. And the only remedy to challenge the papists and the corruption in the church was a Sola Scriptura approach similar to how John Wycliffe challenged papal involvement in nations and possession of lands. The papists could argue the pope was essentially king of everything with a bull. But Wycliffe challenged them to see how their false doctrines were conflicting with Scripture and even the apostle’s own God ordained roles.
There is nothing stopping the church from going down that dark path again without Sola Scriptura. There are bad popes. Some that have even been anathematized. There are bad bishops. The medieval church is the best rationality for the necessity of Sola Scriptura to check the power of the papists and their corruption in that age. And it is evidence why we should never ever revisit papist doctrines as authoritative again. While the church may be in a much better place today, there is no guarantee that will never happen again, unless there is an unmoving, unchanging absolute authority. Sola Scriptura. This is not an attack, this is a plea for reason. Simply reading the history of Jan Huss and the Hussite wars should be a pretty reasonable place for dialogue on this issue.
God bless my siblings in Christ.
My goodness, the nature of this debate is in examplar for us youtube debaters in the comments section.
All too often are they combative and emotionally charged. I have much to learn, and this debate shall be my source.
Great conversation! Very charitable. Some good Catholic apologetics to take with me.
Appreciate this discussion format. I don't get as much edification from debates. I think both sides were presented well but I remain sola scriptura.
incredibly good dialogue
Here's what I don't get:
I see a lot of folks claiming that Protestants have a role for traditions, and that they study the Fathers. Okay...but, how can an objective observer distinguish between...
(a.) actually listening to the Fathers on topics where they have strong consensus, even when they disagree with me; and,
(b.) cherry-picking the Fathers whenever they happen to agree with my own interpretation, and utterly disregarding them whenever they don't?
I ask this, because option (b.) can be described as "giving tradition a role" and "studying the Fathers," but in the end, it refuses to take action on the Fathers' opinions. By having no practical difference from "Solo" Scriptura, it functionally reduces to "Solo" Scriptura; that is, to an utterly individual, private, "Jus' Me An' My Bible" mode of deriving the content of the Christian faith. It reduces to "Solo Scriptura" precisely because it never admits error by changing itself to match the Fathers' interpretation of Scripture...not even on occasions where their testimony is entirely uniform and ubiquitous, and even blasé!
Take, for example, the Catholic and Orthodox (and Coptic and Assyrian and Nestorian) practice of petitioning the deceased saints for their intercession. Now, I'm sorry, but this was just EVERYWHERE in early Christianity. They have some evidence of it among some Nestorians as far away as modern China. It was common practice in Roman Gaul. It was practiced among the first missionaries to the British Isles. Most of the early churches were built over martyrs' bones for the expressed purpose of seeking their patronage and intercession. The book of Revelation depicts the heavenly altar as covering the "souls" of the martyrs just as the earthly altars covered their relics. When Christianity was first legalized and Constantine's mom went 'round making shrines, they were always associated with seeking intercession from dead saints.
In short: The practice was universal. And of course it's quite easy to argue from Scripture that the "great cloud of witnesses" isn't just cheering for us like spectators in the stands, but is also willing to pray for us, and even to carry OUR prayers to the throne of God FOR US. (See Revelation chapters 5 and 8.)
So, if Protestants consider the Fathers to have ANY kind of relevance to Christian practice AT ALL, why aren't all the Protestant ministers regularly asking St. Paul (to name one obvious suggestion) to pray for them, and to carry their own prayers to the throne of Jesus, at the right hand of the Father?
If even this supremely widespread practice isn't sufficient to overcome the Protestant tradition of Not Doing That Because It Sounds Too Catholic, then what interpretation or tradition of the Fathers ever possibly COULD provoke Protestants to change their interpretation or tradition?
And if there really isn't anything the Fathers can say or do to override a Protestant theologian's private opinion, then, really, what justifies the claim that they aren't ALL doing "Solo" Scriptura?
Isn't the claim of attentiveness to the Fathers really just a fig leaf? An attempt to make "Solo" Scriptura look more broadminded and scholarly than it is? A nice "smile and nod," full of "polite nothings" about the Fathers' piety, but with no intention of ever letting the Fathers' opinions override one of my personal views?
Was there ever a group of Baptists who said, "Gee, looks like all the early Christians baptized infants and believed some form of baptismal regeneration; I guess we all need to change our views on that." ...?
NOTE: In the above ^^^, I've stated my view as questions, because if there really IS some practical differentiation between "the Sola Scriptura of historical Protestantism" and the "Jus' Me An' My Bible" approach, I am open to hearing what that practical difference is.
But at present, I don't believe that, in practice, Protestants have a distinction-with-a-difference between "Sola" and "Solo."
As Steven Crowder says: "Change My Mind!"
@cordswork ...spot on!! What you articulated (incoherence of sola scriptura, giving lip service to the church fathers, ignorance and/or misrepresentation of church history, etc..) are some of the many reasons I'm no longer a Confessional Reformed Presbyterian/staunch Calvinist/anti Catholic!! I'm so blessed to now be experiencing the fullness of our faith in Christ's on true holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church!!
Concerning your example of praying to the saints, I don't claim to be an expert in church history but it is my understanding that the practice is not found until about the third century and then began to spread until it was officially accepted by the church centuries later.
Well, I don't know about a "group", but I am someone who used to be a Baptist, whom upon understanding the early church's practices of infant baptism and their views on baptismal regeneration, changed my stance on both these things.
@@nathanbatten9220:
Yep, me too.
I grew up in Southern Baptist (and SB-influenced non-denom) churches, and pretty much assumed that what I experienced there was the standard shape of Christian belief and practice everywhere and everywhen. From age 5 to age 35, I just assumed this WAS "Christianity" as such. I wasn't at all dissatisfied with it; and I wasn't looking to change anything.
But, around that time, I was interacting with some people who were trying to claim that early Christianity didn't morally oppose sexual acts between members of the same sex. (You know: "Paul was only opposed to a certain kind of temple prostitution," that kind of thing.) That didn't sound likely to me, but to argue their position, they were doing the same kind of thing that pastors often do: "Well, you know, this word, in the original Greek, means such-and-such." It was a "textualist/lexical" argument.
So I reasoned about it this way: "People can tendentiously select definitions of words in all kinds of ways and make all kinds of claims. But IF what these guys are claiming really HAD been the attitude the apostles taught to their earliest disciples, then THAT would have angered various people -- not least the rabbinical Jews, but also certain Greek ethicists -- who held otherwise. So it makes sense that those folks would have objected, and the early Christians would have responded to those objections, and so on: There would be documentary evidence of the debate. And later, when Christians began to shift away from this supposedly-early approval of same-sex acts, towards a supposedly-later opposition to them, then there would have been pushback from the persons holding the more-permissive view, and once again, the debate would have provided documentary evidence."
So I went and looked for the documents: For everything that showed (a.) a controversy had arisen; (b.) how widespread the controversy was; and (c.) which of the views being proposed was being proposed "out of the blue"; i.e. as a contradiction of that which had been inherited from the apostles.
Well, needless to say, I easily found there was no plausible argument that the apostolic teaching on human sexuality was libertine, at all. History had proven my interlocutors' textual/lexical case to be utterly vacuous.
But I also found out that the Eucharist was a sacrifice, and that for Ignatius of Antioch in AD 107 (!), the "heretics" were those who "denied that the Eucharist we received was the flesh of Jesus which hung on the cross for our sins." I found that the early Christians held "baptismal regeneration," and that baptism remitted sins, and that the Church had authority through her bishops (!) to judicially remit sins (!!) after baptism, and that the main controversy about THAT was whether post-baptismal serious sins could only be remitted once (after which, a second failure meant inescapable hellfire!) or whether post-baptismal sins could be absolved many times (albeit with an imposition of years-long periods in the "order of penitents"), with each absolution acting to rescue the penitent from the danger of hellfire.
Ultimately, the Bishop of Rome (!) held the latter view, and the Christian world fell into line: Your second serious sin after baptism didn't necessarily result in hell, but serious penance was in order, and confession to your bishop (!). Which was often public (!!!). And usually meant a period of months or years during which you couldn't receive communion (!!!), such that councils had to legislate reminders to bishops that they should give penitents communion if they were in danger of death.
I realized, from all this, that none of the early Christians held "once saved, always saved" as a practical/experiential reality. At most, they could state that since God knew the future, He knew all along who was saved in the end, but that they themselves, who didn't know the future, had no basis for confidence UNLESS they "persevered to the end," intentionally repenting from every serious sin.
Since I had been raised in a church that taught "once saved, always saved," this was a bit of a shock. Mine was a "conservative" church, or so I thought. (We weren't quite "fundamentalist" but more "liberal" Christians sometimes wanted to lump us into that category.) To find out that, on a topic bearing on serious matters of salvation, we were the "liberals" (!) made me wonder how many of my categories were fundamentally wrongheaded.
That was why I really got into studying the early Fathers, and made a point (for about four years) of focusing on the period from the Ascension to about AD 400. I chose that range of dates because I knew that if anyone in my childhood church were to argue against the conclusions I was drawing, they'd try to do so on the basis of their interpretation of certain Scripture passages. But, I also knew that the canon of the New Testament remained unsettled until the 300's, and that the evidence we moderns have for the accepting our current 27-book New Testament canon all comes to us from Christians between AD 200 (Origen) and AD 400 (Augustine, Jerome, the Synods of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo, and Athanasius' Easter Letter of 372).
I realized that anyone I was arguing the interpretation of Scripture with couldn't justifiably ignore the opinions of that group of early Christians. If they said, "Aw, you're accepting baptismal regeneration and the notion that people can reject salvation by failure to repent post-baptismal sin...but the Christians you're getting those ideas from were all wrong, all heretics" ...then I could reply, "Oh? Then why are you trusting those exact same heretics for your knowledge that the book of Hebrews belongs in the Bible? Or the book of James? Or Revelation? or Jude? Or 2nd Peter? Or 2nd and 3rd John? Why do you take their word for it when they claim that the gnostic texts are spurious, or that 1st Clement and the Didache and the letters of Ignatius of Antioch are orthodox for devotional reading, but don't quite belong in the Bible?"
To me, that reasoning seemed pretty airtight: If you want to have a Bible with a knowable Table of Contents, you have to assume that the guys you're getting it from AREN'T a boatload of utter heretics, especially about topics on which they all agree.
But that's where I've found my Protestant brothers and sisters to be a bit...schizophrenic. It doesn't seem to faze them that they hold a different notion about salvation, or ecclesiology, or sacraments, from the folks whom they trust implicitly for the reliability of their canon-of-Scripture. A rare few have said, "Yeah, I grant that that's not consistent." But most seem to have a mental block about it, where they're unable to ask themselves the question, "If this is true, what would it mean?" They just change the subject.
There's a website called "Less Wrong" that popularized the idea of "Ugh Fields." I think the people who want to have a canonized New Testament but reject the Church Fathers on other topics kind of have an "Ugh Field" around the question, "What if my church, where I'm happy and comfortable, isn't teaching the truth?": It's like an invisible frictionless force-field around that idea. Whenever their mind wanders in that direction, it bounces off the forcefield and wanders off to some other topic.
Paul says to pray without ceasing and with the intercession of all the saints in heaven who intercede for us. Paul also says to practice and to keep the teachings and traditions of the apostles (the teachings and traditions that St. Judes [& other 11 apostles] gave and passed down to us) via written or word of mouth.
This means that all 12 apostles were given instructions from Jesus himself and guided by the holy spirit to teach(spread the gospel) and to pass down traditions (that were approved by the Holy Spirit). Some of the teaching and traditions were written down and some were spoken. But the Protestants take away all of the teachings and traditions whilst lying about obeying the bible only. If they did went by the bible then they’re obligated to keep the teaching & traditions and becoming catholic. The Catholic Church has everything you need.
Protestants are rebels.
Awesome discussion! It’s great to see such a charitable conversation on these topics, especially between a Protestant and a Catholic. One thing I might recommend though Jimmy is letting other guy talk more. lol Seemed like you were talking a majority of the time, and Gavin didn’t have as much time to respond. Like 5 minutes for you and 1 minute for him. Just something to think about. Not saying you weren’t letting him or anything like that, just how the flow went. Both of you were very kind and respectful. Appreciate the discussion and hope you’ll debate/discuss other issues with Gavin!!! He’s one of the best I’ve ever come across. 🙏✝️🙏
I really enjoyed this dialog, it provided some excellent things to consider.
At about the 1 hour mark there is the question of whether limited book access prior to the printing press is congruent with a church wide practice of scripture as the final authority. I don’t find this historical argument particularly effective. There clearly were enough books being passed around the churches for their contents to be generally known. This can be shown from the broad base of citations by Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and others. The question, both for a bishop defending his view to a layperson as well as between the bishops/elders, was always was this taught in the prophets writings and in the Apostles teachings.
In the first couple of generations appeal might have been made to oral tradition, but as time went on the surety of this witness was reduced. Naturally such evidence of the universal teaching of the bishops would be grounds for appeal, but that does not support the idea that the bishops had authority to create doctrine that was not set forth by the Apostles. Rather it was used as evidence that this teaching was original to the Apostles. This is seen in Clement of Rome’s distinction between himself and the Apostles. And even in Irenaeus’ appeal to Rome because it “maintained the Apostolic traditions.” Nevertheless, Irenaeus only makes this appeal after stating that the heretics, being refuted by scripture, accuse scripture of uncertainty (as regards basic doctrines) and they appeal to the “living voice” of Paul and secret sayings for their heresy. The appeal to KNOWN traditions was to counter this false appeal to secret tradition (Against Heresies, book 3, ch.1-2).
The question then becomes, are there any Roman Catholic teachings that do not appeal to written Apostolic tradition, but to oral teachings which were not preserved in the scriptures? If there are any that support unique Roman teachings that would be interesting, as well as the Roman church’s basis for knowing this oral tradition as Apostolic.
To say that the Roman church has the power to select from oral tradition from any teaching put forward by teachers in the church throughout its history is quite different from an appeal to evidence of Apostolic oral tradition. Lack of conclusive evidence for Apostalicity, means that the Roman church does not need to appeal to Apostolic tradition, but only to their own authority to declare new infallible truth. The fact that it is tied to a doctrinal history does not make it Apostolic.
If in fact, the Roman church MOST frequently claims only a fallible authority to settle disputes on church doctrine, why is there a need to be able to claim infallibility with regard to some claims? Especially as the ones in dispute with historic Protestantism are the most attenuated based upon scripture and church tradition (on account of known diversity in the church fathers).
If the Roman church limits its claims to authority to settle disputes between doctrines that are ambiguous enough to garner significant approval among various fathers, and it is acknowledged that scripture is not reasonably clear on the point (such as transubstantiation, as opposed to real presence, or the Marian dogmas), why is there a need to “settle” these points? Why not simply continue to acknowledge that a variety of views are acceptable?
Sola Scriptura seems compatible with the Irenaeus’ appeals to church unity on basic doctrines. So why should the Roman Church’s apologists deny it? Such would only seem to be necessary if it affirmed the two source theory of authority. But it does not (dogmatically). So why should Rome deny scripture as the only infallible rule for faith and practice?
There seems to be only one reason, the claim to Roman infallibility. But this belief is the most lacking of all in historical support. That, it seems, is the controlling issue that now separates Protestants from Rome. At least, it prevent’s Rome from even being able to self-correct at any one point of dogma. One does not have to admit one is wrong on any one point to say one could be wrong, except on this one point of Church infallibility. But that makes this point central.
Why is the Holy Spirit’s work of preserving the truth in the Church only possible through its infallibility rather than its self-correction through time, under the infallible Words of the Prophets and Christ’s Apostles?
@@afterthesemessages756, sure, everybody should read the scriptures, but “determining a doctrine of the Church” for “oneself” should not be isolated from help and insight from prior Christian readings to gain clarity on possible distortions I or they might have.
If you were taught that we need not concern ourselves with other Christian’s readings, then that would seem to be a departure from the Protestant view. If on the other hand, you just mean that scripture should get priority, even after taking the history of interpretation into consideration, then that sounds about right.
@@afterthesemessages756 I think there is a lot more Orthodox unity than you seem to indicate even among independent charismatic churches. And if we are realistic, we see that diversity is also present among Roman Catholics-Dominicans (Calvinists), Franciscans (Arminians), and Jesuits, etc.
Protestants are Reformed Catholics who hold to the universal teachings contained in the Apostolic deposit (the Bible). Any Roman Catholic that affirms the supremacy of the Apostles over later tradition is affirming sola scriptura (based upon the Roman Churches own understanding of what constitutes the historically acknowledged Apostolic record) they just selectively chose to follow tradition when it goes further than the Apostles taught. If that makes you feel better and more secure, then I wish you the best. I do. I just wish you would understand why others don’t see this as “Catholic,” but an unnecessarily restrictive understanding of what it means to be a community under the lordship of Jesus.
It's absolutely amazing that Ortlund is willing to admit the reality of binding decision-making authority in a church body. That's more than most Protestants are willing to do. But of course, it only begs the question: WHICH church body does in fact have that binding, if not infallible, authority? Jimmy could have and maybe should have explicitly called that out. I couldn't help but chuckle when Ortlund referred to 900 million Protestants as if they really constituted one body of consistent doctrine or as if there was one binding decision-making authority for them all.
4 years ago I was neither protestant nor Catholic in my theology. I was merely a church goer to a non-demonational but Baptist/Calvin leaning (though I was unaware of the Baptist/Calvin part) "Sola" professing church.
As I began to question what I was hearing, I "waded" into church history.
What I found was that there are two distinct types of protestants in regard to Sola Scriptura. The first, rooted in the reformation, hold to their confessions as the idea that individuals can interpret Scripture is voided by their confessional assertions that Scripture is only infallible in its original languages. Well, who can read Greek and Hebrew? Only the thelogians.
To your observation about him admitting an authority outside of Scripture, Luther would endorse this position.
The other prostestants (modern day Evangelical and Bible churches for sure) take Sola Scriptura too litteraly in my opinion to mean everyone can be their own interpreter of Scripture. Of course, they're philosophy of what is essential to believe vs non-essential keeps the peace.
I'm probably not telling you anything that you don't already know but I wanted to share how confusing it was for me to navigate and sift through the Sola Scriptura viewpoints.
@@m4641 Thanks for sharing. I've only come across this caveat regarding the original languages a couple times. Interesting, but one cannot escape the need for authoritative interpretation, regardless of which language, original or translation. So I would view the language issue as more of a side issue, if not a red herring.
Where in Scripture is this "philosophy of what is essential to believe vs non-essential"? I'm very aware of it, but it seems like another "man-made tradition" from Protestantism. But again, it STILL begs the question WHICH church body can authoritatively interpret Scripture so as to declare certain beliefs essential and others not. The only way to arrive at such a philosophy from Scripture is to first notice WHO in Scripture is doing the binding and loosing (i.e. Peter, Paul, Council of Jerusalem, the apostles Jesus chose, and the bishops chosen by the apostles) and WHY them. The fundamental question for Christians is the same as for the Jews of that time: "By what authority do you do these things?" (Mark 11:28; Matt 21:23)
@YAJUN YUAN Nothing I've said is in contradiction to those 2 quotes by Jimmy Akin. No one is saying that the individual shouldn't interpret Scripture. Catholics, including myself, do it all the time. The issue/question is not who should interpret Scripture but whose interpretations carry authority that is binding on the consciences of the all Christians. The Catholic Church has a clear answer to that. Ortlund does NOT have a clear answer to that because, though he admits the reality of binding decision-making authority in a church body, he does not tell us WHICH Church body does in fact have that authority. I'd be interested to hear him answer that question.
@YAJUN YUAN "has never made any actual interpretations"
As you know, Jimmy has never said that. He said "almost every case." The Catholic Church has certainly exercised its authority in history binding at least one certain interpretation to certain verses.
@YAJUN YUAN Jimmy Akin is doing his next two Mysterious World episodes on Ellen G White.
Jimmy you are awesome
Jimmy ties the printing press and increased literacy to sola scriptural. But I don’t think that a high rate of literacy was achieved at the same time the printing press was invented. You had more books available but I don’t think there was a great increase in the number of people who suddenly could read. The people who could read and discuss these issues before the printing press were the same people after the inventing of the printing press.
Beautiful discussion
00:00 perspicuity of scripture
19:35 sola scriptura
It's a shame that Jimmy moves quickly past the point that Gavin was making at 1:03:40. It seems like in the minutes up until that, Jimmy is continuing to work off of some non-historical understanding of what sola scripture is, but at that timestamp Gavin makes it clear that the concept doesn't mean that all individuals need to have the scriptures to determine what it says, it only matters that the church possesses the scriptures and they are used as the sole infallible authority. I hope Jimmy is/was able to come back to that point and I'd be curious to hear his response.
I’m not Catholic but I’ve become a Jimmy fan!
There’s a Catholic in each one of us fighting to get out.
@Leroy Spencer
Protestants believe in lower case cathloicty.
@@specialteams28I let him out- he informed me that truth is actually Orthodoxy, not the RCC.
@@countryboyred I’ll let your current faith in orthodoxy run it’s course.. I don’t have the words to make you aware of the mistake. I’ll pray though that the Good Shepherd will bring you back to his fold.
@@specialteams28 I’ll let your current faith in Rome run it’s course.. I don’t have the words to make you aware of the mistake. I’ll pray that the Good Shepard brings you back to the fold.
Response to Gavin on his view that Cyril of Jerusalem advocated Sola Scriptura...
CYRIL of JERUSALEM (two quotes):
i. 'But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now DELIVERED TO THEE by THE CHURCH, AND which has been built up strongly out of all the SCRIPTURES.' Catechetical Lectures 5,12
ii. 'Learn also diligently, and FROM THE CHURCH, WHAT ARE THE BOOKS of the Old Testaments, and WHAT are the books of the NEW' Catechetical Lectures 5,33
Gavin should be made aware of the following historical context of Cyril's alleged Sola Scriptura quote, which he read in the show, to better understand what Cyril meant. Cyril was born, and ruled as a bishop, during the height of the Arian heresy. As a matter fact, two Roman Emperors during Cyril's life were Arians. Thus, since Cyril was a bishop and catechist teacher during this period, he most likely was endeavouring to promote precise theology from the Scriptures AND the Church to defeat Arian heresies. And this is perfectly consonant with what the Catholic Church has always taught because it is Tradition which the Church employed to determine the canon of Scritpure, since Scripture certainly doesnt tell us what the canon is, and moreover Tradition has always been regarded as one of the three indispensable pillars (Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium) which the Church professes to rest on.
great defense of sola scriptura Dr Ortlund. Glory to God alone. I love both of you gentlemen and all Christian brothers and sisters. Let God lead us to the truth ❤
This dialogue exemplifies grace, humility and truth on both sides, and brought to my mind when our Lord says to the disciples, "By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
No brainer here to smash the subscribe button ⏺
One thing that does not come up in this debate is the fact of Jesus promises in scripture to guide the truth so hear is my question. I appreciate the kindness of these two fellows; I don't want my question to seem polemic but here it is. I am desperate for an answer on this one question. Let me just take one disagreement between Catholic and Protestant. The question is how can we trust the Bible? Catholics say the Church put the Bible together. Protestants say “NO the Bible revealed itself." Protestants say "the Church no more gave us the Bible than Newton gave us gravity.” For me not growing up in a religious home I just read the Bible until I was convinced that it was not a myth. I read it carefully many times, so I know the contents pretty well. So to the question as to why we should trust anything the early Church did; this is what the Bible says: Jesus said 1) He was going to build a single Church. 2) He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. 3) He said that He would be with the Church until the end of the age. 4) He said that He was going to send the "Spirit of Truth" to guide the Church in all truth. Then Paul says 5) the pillar and bulwark of truth is “the church.” Okay so let us look in church history at the Canon. In 382 AD the Church had the Council at Rome and determined that the canon was 73 books. They chose which books are infallible. That would be a radically important thing right? So the question is why would we trust those 73 books? Well, the answer is that Jesus said he would be with the Church to the end of the age. He also said he would give it the Holy Spirit to guide it in all truth. So we should trust what he says right? So from 382 AD to 1520 AD the Church that operated on the earth had the 73 book canon. But then Protestants come along and around 1520 AD and they claim that the early Church got the 73 book canon wrong. I am not being rude or belligerent but I really would like someone to explain - calmly and in simple language because I am slow - Please tell me how that is not absurd to say the Church got the 73 book Canon wrong based on Jesus promise to be with the Church to the end of the age and to send the “Spirit of Truth” to guide the church in All TRUTH.
I am not being belligerent here really, I earnestly want to know. Did Jesus lie? Did He make a mistake? Did the Holy Spirit make an error with the 73 book canon?
I cannot for the life of me bring myself to believe that the church which is described as the “pillar and bulwark of truth” was not even on the earth from 382 To 1520. But then let’s move on; let’s say that the Protestants are right and the Church errored in the 73 Book canon. If the Church errored in the 73 book canon did God wait from 382 AD until 1520 before He restored the real truth? Are we really going to believe that for 1200 years the true Christian Church was not there? You could not say the true church was there if they could not even get the correct books in the canon. And I don’t see any other church in history declaring anything different than the 73 book canon. So the real church with the correct Bible was not on earth if the Protestant claim is true. Can that make any sense? I am just a guy who read the Bible very closely and came down on the Catholic side only recently but now I have Protestants telling me I am going to hell. I am not being rude or accusatory. But please tell me how it is not incoherent that Jesus says he would create one Church. He would be with the Church to the end of the age. He would give it the Holy Spirit to guide it in ALL TRUTH. But then for one of the most important issues in all of Christianity the early Church gets 73 book canon wrong and so the real truth on this issue is not there until 1520. If that is true that would make me question the Christian truth claims entirely. Just a reasoned answer to this question would really help me. I pray for all of us and long for unity.
The church did not start in the 3rd century, it started in the Day of Pentecost.
Eventually you are just going to have to pick a side. Because the Orthodox make the exact same claims the Romans do and cite their sources, have long discussions and arguments about it, etc.
Gavin seems like someone who's open minded and really looking for the truth. I won't be surprised if in a couple years he ends up a Catholic :) may God guides him to the truth.
Also, thanks Jimmy for showing us how to disagree with our protestant brothers and sisters respectfully and meekfully.
Actually he said that his protestantism has been morely confirmed :D
*Gavin seems like someone who's open minded and really looking for the truth.....
You take open mindedness as a sign he is going to become Catholc. Does this mean you see Jimmy as closed minded and really not looking for truth?
@@Lambdamale. when someone is open minded, he/she'll find out the truth sooner or later. And I do believe truth is in Catholicsm, not in 10,000s protestant denominations that can't even agree on fundamental issues
@@adennyh 10,001....Catholicism is just ONE more voice amongst the confusion. But for some reason it seems to excuse itself.
@@Lambdamale. not really sure what you mean by that, but if you study history of Christianity back on the church fathers time, you'll find out Catholic church is the church founded by Jesus Christ through his apostles
Liking, commenting, and subscribing :)
Nice conversation!
Jimmy, please do one or two videos a day... THE WORLD WILL BE A BETTER PLACE IF YOU DO. Jimmy, you walk with Our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. Thank You for working for Him.
Jimmy Akin: Very good point. The practical impossibility of sola scriptura has impact on what Gavin terms conceptual sola scriptura exactly because Gods plan was deployable from the word 'go'. All God's plans especially pertaining to salvation were implementable from te beginning. That is why Catholic missionary successfully evangelised my great parents in Africa much more than any Protestant missionaries could.
In Bohemia the oldest known translation of the bible (from the Vulgate) to the national language is from year 1360 (Staročeská bible Leskovecko - Drážďanská). It was widespread in Bohemia with several subsequent editions.
hale konečně nějaký čech nebo slovák? :-)
@@jirkahanus7545 Zdravím! Maďar ze Slovenska a občan ČR 🙃
It will be interesting to maybe know in heaven what we got correct and what we got wrong. Bless you all in Lord Jesus Christ!
I love these dialogues. Where you have a guy who’s Catholic on one side, and then a guy that doesn’t know he’s going to become Catholic on the other.
Protestant here. 😂. Good one.
I do think I see Jimmy’s point on several issues in this discussion.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
There is only one Mediator between God and men LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
____________________________________
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary.
_________________________
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics.
_________________________
Also, if the apostles didn't wrote it, I don't want it.
@@mynameis......23 what Jesus meant by "more than that" is, also, or, as well. BTW smarty pants, where did you get the scripture? Answer, The Holy Roman Catholic Church. Haha. And remember, even Satan knows the scriptures. Be careful pharisee, your father is the devil. You've been brainwashed and trained to hate Catholics. Guess who also hates Catholics, and Jesus and Mary? Satan. Your father.
@@mynameis......23 that’s an easy one. So Mary really is more blessed than the rest of us because not only was she 100% obedient to God but she also bore him in her womb. 😉
@@enniomojica7812 all his claims can be answered with a bit of sincere research lol
I laughed when I read number 9: "The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself, and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly." The problem with this is not HOW we are to interpret Scripture but WHO is to be the judge. Everyone reads Scripture and searches for other places that "speak more clearly" and yet they still disagree. 30,000 sects contradicting each other and all using this same rule. Scripture cannot interpret itself. It is people who read passages and interpret. Yet they all disagree with each other. Scripture cannot be the rule of faith, not because Scripture is wrong. Scripture is never wrong. It is infallible. But the problem is that it is very easily misinterpreted. Oh, and don't pretend to tell me "The Holy Ghost told me." Sure. Everyone makes this laughable claim as well and they all STILL DISAGREE. So, we need a visible infallible Church to assure the true meaning of Scripture.
Holy Scripture is quite clear that we must cooperate with God's saving grace and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and love one another and persevere to the end to be saved! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
But protestants rejected the Sacraments that dispenses God's Saving Grace and replaced it with the false sola fide and sola scriptura doctrine
Jimmy argues that the early church was primarily illiterate and yet: "Thus, the fact that most Christians were illiterate is not at all unusual and certainly not grounds for being suspicious of whether they really placed a high value on texts. Contrary to the assumptions of our modern Western mindset, it was possible for groups, such as early Christians, to be largely illiterate and yet still have quite a sophisticated textual culture. The majority of Christians would have been exposed regularly to texts through public readings and recitations, teaching and preaching, and intensive catechetical instruction.15 Thus illiteracy was not a barrier to being immersed in Christian writings."
The Heresy of Orthodoxy (Foreword by I. Howard Marshall) (p. 183). Crossway. Kindle Edition.
There is a great meaning in being breathed on. We see it over and over in the Scriptures. To be breathed on automatically implies that someone is present with you, such as when as when teaching is passed on. This means that the Spirit of God must be passed in person. From one to another. Reading Scripture alone does not do this. This means that there is more to be passed on than just Scripture alone. There is something living that is passed on that cannot be captured by paper and ink alone. The entirety of God cannot be contained within the pages of a book or even a universe full of books.
Well done Jimmy
I have gone through your video and have heard others from both of you.
Through listening to you often l have come to learn that you are learned and well informed on both historical and current Christian facts.
Sola Scriptura is a topic which first emerged first in the sixteenth century and was raised by Martin Luther.
And Luther was adamant on this topic and stressed that all matters of faith and salvation should be confined
to what is stated in the bible.
To day after a lot of criticism the position has shifted to say the bible has sufficient information to attain eternal salvation and actually some protestant denominations ignore this rigidity.
Let us be honest and face Christian historical facts and note the following;
1. Jesus preached the Gospel and made elaborations but never said write a book and call it a bible.
Jesus did not define the cannon of the Scripture.
2. The Apostles as well did not define the cannon of the Scriptures.
3. Sola Scriptura or bible alone is against the teachings of the bible as mentioned in John 20: 21: 25 where it is stated there are many other things which Jesus did and write but are not written for practical purposes.
In John 15: 12-15 where Jesus said there were many things I wanted to tell you but you will not understand them now but the Holy Spirit would reveal them to you when he comes.
4. Bible alone is not adequate but equally important is to correctly intepretetion of the bible .
The bible itself does not provide modality for its interpretation.
The bible is a collection of books recommended by the the Catholic Councils of Carthage, Hippo and finally Council of Rome under Pope Damusus in 382 which approved the first edition of thr bible.
When the bible was compiled and approved in 382 AD. The gospels were already interpreted first by Jesus himself and passed over to the apostles and on to the early church fathers.
This understanding of the word of God as passed over from Jesus and Apostles and beyond became known as sacred tradition. So that the meaning of the scripture contents should be the same at the time of Jesus and to day.
Kindly read Hebrews 13 :7-9 where in summary it says remember those who brought you the faith and remember their teachings and conduct and imitate them and not be drawn to strange teachings as Jesus is the same yesterday today and for ever.
The deposits of Christian faith include; the bible sacred tradition and church councils decisions.
Actually compilation of the bible is a product of church councils decisions .
Protestant unfortunately are not united in doctrine and are continuously splitting.
Protestant use individual understanding, Greek and Exegesis to intepret the Bible as said above matters which are not mentioned in the bible.
In Mathew16:13-18 Jesus established a his church and gave it powers to bind and unbind and promised to be with his church until the end times.
We cannot limit the teachings of Jesus to the bible alone He is always with his church and does reveal additional devine revelation building on what he has told us in the bible.
Thouout the existence of the Catholic Church Jesus himself or through the apostles, mother Mary saints and Angels has delivered a lot of information to his church and this includes the apparitions of Mother Mary for instance Fatma, Sister Faustina on devine mercy St. Francis of Asisi Magret Allacok and currently the Miracles of Medjugure in Bosnia.
These informations are available in Google and Wikipedia and are worth reading.
I would advise my protestant brothers to go deeper into Christian history beyond 1500 and learn what
Jesus has done within the Catholic Church throughout the 2000 years of its existence
Remember Jesus in John 17 prayed for Christian Unity and for over 1,000 years the church was united and spead christianity to the entire Europe North Africa and the Middle East qnd compiled the bible. The church like any human being led institutions has committed errors but the best way is not to split and start other churches but to be humble and pray to God for his guidance.
Since the so called reformation those churches which then split have split to several denominations now amounting to about 45,000.
Instead of speading the good news of Jesus Christ these churches are preoccupied with quarrels among themselves and preaching hatred and false Gospels.
Remember in Luke 11:17-18: a nation which has groups fights among themselves will not survive.
Because of our disunity and contradictions people are leaving Christianity and sadly christianity is slowly dying.
We should not allow this to happen let us pray that.God leads us to the truth and let us revisit the early church and dGod will lead us to the trueth.
I am available on WhatsApp +255763022685 for futher exchange of views.
.y God save Christianity. May Jesus preserve Christian unity.
So refreshing
the problem with thinking that there is "clarity when it comes to what is needed for salvation" ... is that it's not. That's why there are about 10 different protestatn formulas for "what must i do to be saved?" And they all claim that it's clear by scripture, and that everyone else is either not right, or ignoring the Spirit, or heretics. You need an authority that's an extension from God, to accurately come to conclusions of truth like that. Thank you Akin and Trent Horn, and Tim Staples for helping me see the light and joining the CC. Never been happier or more grounded in my walk with the Lord than 22 years as a protestant.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:46 *🎙️ Gavin Ortland and Jimmy Akin engage in a discussion on sola scriptura, highlighting their mutual respect for theological dialogue.*
05:50 *📖 Sola scriptura affirms the clarity of Scripture, especially regarding salvation-related teachings, though not all aspects of Scripture are equally clear to everyone.*
06:44 *🤝 Gavin emphasizes the importance of accurately representing opposing views in theological discussions to avoid caricatures and promote understanding.*
07:52 *🤔 Both Catholics and Protestants can agree on the clarity of Scripture regarding salvation, despite doctrinal differences.*
10:36 *📚 Gavin and Jimmy discuss differing perspectives on the relationship between church leaders and the laity in interpreting Scripture.*
14:03 *📜 Historical instances suggest episodes where the Church restricted translations of Scripture into the vernacular, impacting perspectives on sola scriptura.*
21:27 *💬 Gavin and Jimmy delve into interpretations of sola scriptura, discussing whether it necessitates explicit biblical support for all theological beliefs.*
23:15 *📖 Examination of confessional statements reveals a principle within sola scriptura emphasizing the necessity of explicit or inferred biblical support for theological doctrines.*
24:38 *💡 The Westminster Confession emphasizes the authority of the Old and New Testaments as being immediately inspired by God and thus authentic.*
25:33 *🔍 In matters of religion, the Church is to appeal to Scripture, indicating its final authority.*
26:01 *📖 The infallible rule of interpreting Scripture is Scripture itself, implying that clarity can be sought from other passages.*
29:29 *🤔 While Protestants uphold sola scriptura, they recognize the role of tradition, creeds, and councils, affirming Scripture as the only infallible norm.*
30:55 *💬 Protestants, historically, view Scripture as the supreme and infallible judgment in matters of faith, allowing for reformable decisions by the Church.*
37:12 *💬 Protestants like Francis Turretin assert that sola scriptura concerns the supreme and infallible judgment of Scripture over church decisions.*
40:22 *🚩 Caution is needed when interpreting the Church Fathers regarding sola scriptura, as their usage of language and context might differ from modern interpretations.*
41:59 *📜 Martin Chemnitz distinguishes various meanings of "tradition" in the Church Fathers, cautioning against equivocation and misinterpretation.*
46:24 *📚 Cyril of Jerusalem's teachings show recognition of Scripture's paramount authority, emphasizing the necessity of grounding statements in the holy scriptures.*
48:14 *📜 Gavin Ortlund discusses how certain passages in the Fathers seem to suggest a recognition of the authority of scripture.*
50:32 *🛐 Church Fathers emphasized scripture, tradition, and the magisterium based on the controversies they faced.*
56:27 *💡 Solo Scriptura may have been impractical before the printing press due to limited access to scripture.*
01:00:12 *📚 Solo Scriptura became feasible on a larger scale only after the invention of the printing press.*
01:04:52 *🤝 Catholics acknowledge the unique role of Scripture as divinely inspired compared to tradition and the magisterium.*
01:06:18 *📖 Church documents emphasize Scripture as the primary rule for all preaching and Christian religion.*
01:11:56 *📜 Acceptance of infallible dogmas doesn't necessarily equate to them being part of the core message of salvation, according to Catholic doctrine.*
01:12:11 *😇 Rejecting teachings from Scripture jeopardizes salvation, even if they are not part of the core gospel message.*
01:13:49 *📜 Infallibly defined teachings are considered true by divine authority, and rejecting them is seen as rejecting divine authority.*
01:14:31 *💬 Discussion on the role of the Magisterium in interpreting and defining doctrine, particularly regarding the bodily assumption of Mary.*
01:15:26 *🔍 Debate on whether sola scriptura needs explicit mention in the Bible or if implicit teachings suffice.*
Love Gavin ortlund 😄