@@thurmanite77 So that would usually be 3x208V? Does that make a big difference on the power electronics or do they use a voltage doubler on the input and use the same IGBTs as the European units?
The 9390 is either 208, 400, or 480 3 phase. The large, heavy, silver metalled components that contained the inductors and the IGBTs are the power modules, 2 on the left are in the rectifier position and the 2 on the right are the inverter. The power modules are all the same in the units, it just depends on what position they’re in for whether they’re AC/DC or DC/AC. I believe the 400V and the 480V are the same modules, the 208V modules are different.
@@thurmanite77 So do you replace all the power modules when they blow up or just the bad ones? Are you still having problems with Smokey Bear/93PM caching on fire?
I think that I saw something that might be hall effect current sensors on the IGBT PCB, do you know if it uses a combination of CTs and hall-effect to take signals with DC-offset or non-zero average contnt or high crest factor into account? Regarding the 10 inductor chokes, it would be interesting to know in what kind of topology they were connected, and what kind of ferrite that was used inside of them. My guess without much knowledge would be that they are meant to be some kind of common mode-choke that can withstand very high series current without saturating too much.. I just don't know what that behavior would be used for apart from maybe detecting current zero-crossing or similar..
I have a lot of hall-effect current sensors. Ferrite toroid with a slot cut in it and a hall-effect sensor with 3 legs sitting there. The inductors is a single piece of block ferrite. Around 2x5x10cm and with windings almost 1 cm from the core on plastic spacers.
@@KaizerPowerElectronicsDk Thanks for the reply. Is every current measurement performed with hall-effect sensors on the primary side instead of the much less complex use of current transformers? I'm nerding deeper into this kind of technology since I have the opportunity to go from embedded software/electronics development to maybe get involved in designing 3-phase grid-connected power electronics where the primaries will be switching 3 phases in either clamped half-bridge, full-brige or dual-winding dual half-bridge mode where it looks like 20-100A and 700VAC peak needs to be dealt with using as few IGBTs/diodes/voltage drop paths as possible while being able to always handle full voltage short circuits, inrush current, lightning strike voltages while reaching enough efficiency for the thing to be of any economic use. Things like using added leakage inductance between windings is something that appeals to me just like using the lossy ESR of a standard wet electrolytic cap to add attenuation to a snubber circuit to save on component cost. One thing that I for example can't get my head around is how complex the design of EMI filtering needs to be in order to run a 100A IGBT-chopper with the kind of massive inductive wire-loops that such a gigantic contraption will have in comparison to the extremely compact multi-layer PCBs with good ground-planes that I used when I designed class-D amplifiers and SMPS in the ancient days of my youth as a hobbyist, or how difficult it is to actually make semiconductors survive current and voltage surges of the kind the standards hint about, or even just how to implement the IGBT drivers with fault detection, fast/slow turn-off and if even a DSP can drive them all with safety or if a FPGA + DSP solution is needed in order to safe-guard against a stack overflow causing a PWM-stage to get stuck..
One small UPS would do it. Just need to figure out how long you need to run it. Most people just have a small UPS and a generator that kicks in after about 30 seconds. If you have a generator with the auto start at the time the power is disrupted you can save a lot on batteries and a smaller UPS. I would buy an American made one though. Not a Chinese one like Eaton sells!
IGBT modules easiest is to use a grinder to cut the board around them, then simply use some steel wire threaded through the space between board and device, and a hot plate to reflow the solder, and pull the module out again. Sacrificial electric hot plate from the cheap store, some wire and a little practise and you will get at least half of them out.
I will come back with a inverter hack later on, as it turns out it might be useful afterall, the IGBT modules are somewhat different as the pins actually sits in sockets inside the IGBT module, so you can remove the module and the pins still sit in the PCB.
Are the modules arranged in parallel in groups of 5? As it is an Online UPS, there is an AC-DC and a DC-AC stage connected in back-to-back sharing the same DC bus. Looking at the datasheet of the reference FS35R12YT3 it appears that each module is a three-phase 2-level inverter. Do you think that some of these modules have also been used for the DC-DC stage (Buck-Boost) to interface with the battery?
I spotted the TI TMS microprocessor on the CPU board, the other 4 big ICs appear to be Altera Max FPGAs. I can see the current transformers not being easy to use without the analogue processing board which you didn't get.
They are just regular 50 Hz current transformers, possible with a material for higher harmonic measurements, but I guess they could just be reused as a normal current transformer for outputting a ratio current. But I got too many other current transformers, monitors and transducers to even save these :)
Ouch! No wonder they get scrapped, as a new installation with new warranty is preferable to critical businesses. Noone wants to overhaul a machine, for it to fail shortly after.
That was great and painful to watch. How much did you have to pay for all that? I would love to play with those things also, take them apart. I just disassembled some PC supply transformers, wonder if you could use acetone also on those you have. Based on battery with 480v @ 135A, I would was this is 60kVA unit also, this is based on top right sticker But I think this was upgreaded or something to 80KVa/72kw, since lower sticker says 480V @ 180A
It was a damn shame they got smashed before I found them. I do not pay for electronics as its a waste product for the junk yard, but I also return most of the copper to them afterwards. The inductors were not varnished, just cable ties securing each end.
@@KaizerPowerElectronicsDk it might be possible to get you some components (or even full working unit). But it depends on arrangements for the replacement process (yet to be determined).
Wow, a 400V 9390. Never seen one of those and I service 9390's every week. Gonna have to watch this video again with audio.
Denmark and most of Europe uses 3 phase 400VAC, where do you service on these?
America. I’m a OEM field engineer.
@@thurmanite77 So that would usually be 3x208V? Does that make a big difference on the power electronics or do they use a voltage doubler on the input and use the same IGBTs as the European units?
The 9390 is either 208, 400, or 480 3 phase. The large, heavy, silver metalled components that contained the inductors and the IGBTs are the power modules, 2 on the left are in the rectifier position and the 2 on the right are the inverter. The power modules are all the same in the units, it just depends on what position they’re in for whether they’re AC/DC or DC/AC. I believe the 400V and the 480V are the same modules, the 208V modules are different.
@@thurmanite77 So do you replace all the power modules when they blow up or just the bad ones? Are you still having problems with Smokey Bear/93PM caching on fire?
Wow. I remember assembling IBM stack servers'124KVA UPS system back in 1992.
Quite a nostalgic feeling. And a little envy about contemporary diodes.
What is the exact name of those IBM systems, a quick google search did not turn up much.
I think that I saw something that might be hall effect current sensors on the IGBT PCB, do you know if it uses a combination of CTs and hall-effect to take signals with DC-offset or non-zero average contnt or high crest factor into account?
Regarding the 10 inductor chokes, it would be interesting to know in what kind of topology they were connected, and what kind of ferrite that was used inside of them. My guess without much knowledge would be that they are meant to be some kind of common mode-choke that can withstand very high series current without saturating too much.. I just don't know what that behavior would be used for apart from maybe detecting current zero-crossing or similar..
I have a lot of hall-effect current sensors. Ferrite toroid with a slot cut in it and a hall-effect sensor with 3 legs sitting there.
The inductors is a single piece of block ferrite. Around 2x5x10cm and with windings almost 1 cm from the core on plastic spacers.
@@KaizerPowerElectronicsDk Thanks for the reply. Is every current measurement performed with hall-effect sensors on the primary side instead of the much less complex use of current transformers? I'm nerding deeper into this kind of technology since I have the opportunity to go from embedded software/electronics development to maybe get involved in designing 3-phase grid-connected power electronics where the primaries will be switching 3 phases in either clamped half-bridge, full-brige or dual-winding dual half-bridge mode where it looks like 20-100A and 700VAC peak needs to be dealt with using as few IGBTs/diodes/voltage drop paths as possible while being able to always handle full voltage short circuits, inrush current, lightning strike voltages while reaching enough efficiency for the thing to be of any economic use. Things like using added leakage inductance between windings is something that appeals to me just like using the lossy ESR of a standard wet electrolytic cap to add attenuation to a snubber circuit to save on component cost. One thing that I for example can't get my head around is how complex the design of EMI filtering needs to be in order to run a 100A IGBT-chopper with the kind of massive inductive wire-loops that such a gigantic contraption will have in comparison to the extremely compact multi-layer PCBs with good ground-planes that I used when I designed class-D amplifiers and SMPS in the ancient days of my youth as a hobbyist, or how difficult it is to actually make semiconductors survive current and voltage surges of the kind the standards hint about, or even just how to implement the IGBT drivers with fault detection, fast/slow turn-off and if even a DSP can drive them all with safety or if a FPGA + DSP solution is needed in order to safe-guard against a stack overflow causing a PWM-stage to get stuck..
Good job done 👍 knowledge
wow those components are so BIG!
How many of these do I need to power my Minecraft server when the power goes out :)
1
One small UPS would do it. Just need to figure out how long you need to run it. Most people just have a small UPS and a generator that kicks in after about 30 seconds. If you have a generator with the auto start at the time the power is disrupted you can save a lot on batteries and a smaller UPS. I would buy an American made one though. Not a Chinese one like Eaton sells!
IGBT modules easiest is to use a grinder to cut the board around them, then simply use some steel wire threaded through the space between board and device, and a hot plate to reflow the solder, and pull the module out again. Sacrificial electric hot plate from the cheap store, some wire and a little practise and you will get at least half of them out.
I will come back with a inverter hack later on, as it turns out it might be useful afterall, the IGBT modules are somewhat different as the pins actually sits in sockets inside the IGBT module, so you can remove the module and the pins still sit in the PCB.
@@KaizerPowerElectronicsDk do you have the ref part number of the IGBT modules? :)
@@kepaodriozola4619 FS35R12YT3
@@KaizerPowerElectronicsDk thank you so much!! ;)
Are the modules arranged in parallel in groups of 5? As it is an Online UPS, there is an AC-DC and a DC-AC stage connected in back-to-back sharing the same DC bus. Looking at the datasheet of the reference FS35R12YT3 it appears that each module is a three-phase 2-level inverter. Do you think that some of these modules have also been used for the DC-DC stage (Buck-Boost) to interface with the battery?
I spotted the TI TMS microprocessor on the CPU board, the other 4 big ICs appear to be Altera Max FPGAs.
I can see the current transformers not being easy to use without the analogue processing board which you didn't get.
They are just regular 50 Hz current transformers, possible with a material for higher harmonic measurements, but I guess they could just be reused as a normal current transformer for outputting a ratio current. But I got too many other current transformers, monitors and transducers to even save these :)
Open an Ebay store to sell the parts that are in good condition but you have no use for?
Sitting here with mine, looking at the 13k cost to replace the caps and fans... 😥
Ouch! No wonder they get scrapped, as a new installation with new warranty is preferable to critical businesses. Noone wants to overhaul a machine, for it to fail shortly after.
Yep, too bad some of us non profits can't afford new ones every 7 years!
how rump up x ray genrator rapiscan 627xr
Good
That was great and painful to watch. How much did you have to pay for all that? I would love to play with those things also, take them apart. I just disassembled some PC supply transformers, wonder if you could use acetone also on those you have.
Based on battery with 480v @ 135A, I would was this is 60kVA unit also, this is based on top right sticker
But I think this was upgreaded or something to 80KVa/72kw, since lower sticker says 480V @ 180A
It was a damn shame they got smashed before I found them. I do not pay for electronics as its a waste product for the junk yard, but I also return most of the copper to them afterwards. The inductors were not varnished, just cable ties securing each end.
That's the smallest 9390 (60KVA) I've seen. We run stand alone 80KVA and 6x parallel 160KVA 9390.
They are old and about to be thrown out.
I am interested in the power electronics of the 160kVA units, are you getting them?
@@KaizerPowerElectronicsDk it might be possible to get you some components (or even full working unit). But it depends on arrangements for the replacement process (yet to be determined).
@ 4:28 😂
I stopped mining. It was not earning itself in.