A lot of drivers don’t understand the extremely important difference between “I can’t see anything coming” and “I can see that there’s nothing coming.”
The disparity of sentences when it comes to stuff like this is insane. This guy was jailed yet a fella who hit a 10 year old girl on a bike while going through a red, drove off then tried to swap his plates to cover up only got a £900 fine?
It is really strange. Over in Scotland people regularly die due to careless driving and the offenders often get only suspended gaol sentences, or none at all. I think the punishment in this case is more reasonable than in these others.
And the guy who hit me in a similar fashion was let go without charge, officers didn't even report it as a collision even though it was all caught on camera. 2 years later and the police are still investigating their own officers behaviour at the scene, they are facing a mis conduct charge
Agreed. We see way too many instances of blatantly dangerous driving (and/or uninsured drivers) receiving little more than a token slap on the wrist - whilst this guy simply makes a stupid decision and goes to jail for a year. It's the offence itself that should be punished - the outcome is a different matter and should be dealt with in the form of "damages" and compensation.
so this occurred in broad day light and the cyclist was wearing a high vis jacket. there really isn't any excuse for not seeing the cyclist. not stopping at the give way line and taking a look both ways is really inexcusable.
I have been beeped from behind for not following a car blindly out of a junction and as the car cleared a motorbike came passed. Even after that vehicle behind blindly followed me out of the junction 🤦♂️ This here is the reason I take an extra second or two before emerging
@@ibs5080 I think it is something that happens everywhere unfortunately. Best thing is to remember that their impatience is their problem and to never be rushed into anything you are not comfortable with. One guaranteed way to annoy them though is to stall the car as you emerge 😉
At that age that person is never going to be the same again. They were 71, keeping fit and after this accident they'll have a period of bed rest that results in enormous muscle loss (sarcopenia) which is virtually impossible to get back at that age. I'm tired of poor cycling infrastructure & I've given up using my bike for anything but safe, segmented recreational routes
@aurimaspuscius7175 You're forgetting the fact that bikes cause far less damage than cars. There's little reason to restrict riding bikes when they cause 2/1633 (0.12%) of road deaths. Cars on the other hand kill over 95%, so people can't drive those if they're not fit to drive.
While most of the comments here are well balanced and thoughtful, I would suggest that anyone who thinks that a 1 year sentence is harsh needs to give their head a wobble. The driving error was entirely avoidable, the traffic conditions were light, the road design sufficient, there was nothing but the driver's incompetence and impatience that caused that collision. Contrary to the verbal description, the lady was nearly killed - the collision itself was the very definition of life-threatening - and speaking as someone who has broken several bones, the likelihood is that the rider will have permanent mobility problems and a long time to being pain-free from her injuries, if ever. When you are driving, though you would not believe it based on the general standard of driving of 80% of motorists, you are driving a dangerous piece of machinery. Therefore, at every decision point, a driver should be applying their full concentration. That rules out listening to audiobooks, talking on the phone, getting too wrapped up in what other road users are doing (one of my faults), in depth conversations to passengers (the conversations like on TV where drivers insist on looking at who they are talking to, argh!), making TikTok videos about your driving adventures. Driving stopped being fun, except for some very rare pieces of road, at least 20 years ago. All drivers need to accept it is a skilled task requiring 100% attention. The ideal driver is miserable company! Looking is especially skilled, because the brain is a con merchant and will make you believe you have seen clearly, but if your eyes are moving quickly, your vision will be switched off though you won't perceive it. This driver may well have pointed his eyes in both direction, but in his hurry, he may well not have been presented with a clear view of anything. You actually have to let your eyes settle, and also you need to realise that peripheral vision has nearly zero detail, all you see out of the corner of your eye is hints of movement, most of the detail you think you see is fabricated by the brain. So, yes, other people manage to get away with paltry sentences for killing and maiming - that's their problem, not this sentence. Don't like the idea that it is a mistake you could easily make? What are you going to do about it? There are plenty of advanced driving courses around which deal with exactly this issue. In fact the very first feedback I had was to make the point that rather than driving up to a give way and stopping, the technique was to approach slowly and allow yourself plenty of time to look around - and in fact then you often can safely progress without stopping because you know what you have seen - it ends up being quicker and safer. A point that motorists, especially outside London, don't seem to grasp, is that as a driver, we generally don't interact with many cyclists. A sort of panic sets in, assumptions are made and frustration is allowed to take over. Cyclists interact with 100x more drivers than drivers do with cyclists (a fellow cyclist has a Garmin radar and they clocked about 500 car interactions on a 25 mile return trip). So drivers with little or no experience of road cycling just do not have the experience to advise cyclists on how to deal with poor driving, because statistically, if say 10% of drivers are very poor, and 1% are maliciously dangerous, on any one day a cyclist like this lady (who may well have been out for a nice 50 mile ride around quiet Warwickshire lanes with her friends) will have had to dealt with 100 poor interactions and 10 dangerous drivers. (Think about that ratio as you drive around - what percentage of cars to you see being obviously careless, or dangerous - it's not a low number is it?) Bear in mind that ratio every time you see a social media post about all the terrible cyclists drivers see all the time. If we accept that the ratio of poor and deranged drivers and cyclists are roughly the same, for every fabled suicidal cyclist a driver has seen, a cyclist has seen many more homicidal drivers. Remember, for all those who like to bang on about defensive cycling, first and foremost the onus is on drivers to get it right, not for cyclists to spending their time evading other road user's poor driving... ...if they are 71, they've already seen it all. The social acceptability of poor driving is as dangerous today as the social acceptability of drink driving in the 70s.
Thank you for this video - it stopped me from having a crash this morning. There is a mini roundabout near me where it's impossible to see what's on your right until you've emerged, so I always take it slowly. As I came out I remembered what you said so I slowed right down, more than usual. A car that appeared 'out of nowhere' going at speed, clearly not going to stop as many drivers treat the mini roundabout as just a straight road. Because I was going slowly enough I was able to slam on my brakes and just avoided him. Thank god I had your voice in my brain going "if you can't see take it slowly so you have time to stop" and didn't end up being a sitting duck.
HGV drives on wrong side of road & hits my truck head on, causing serious injuries. Cheshire Police treating it as injury for driving without due care, which is a minor slap on wrist. I was off work 3 months & still having long term problems with knee's & mentally. Police are making laws up as they go, meaning one person gets charged with dangerous, while another committing same act gets minor charge if that.
I'm sorry that you were injured and are still suffering but it's wrong to blame the police if the charges don't meet your idea of the crime (and they don't make up laws either). The police investigate the incident then send a report to the CPS who then have the final say in what charges are to be brought, normally based on the most serious offence that they think they can get a conviction for.
@@stevegoodfellow3423 Unfortunately we let things like, ''but I have a family to support'' get in the way of justice. So sentences become lenient, which leads to discrepancy.
While not defending the police at all, it may be worth thinking about bringing a civil lawsuit against the driver for compensation rather than relying entirely on the criminal justice system in this case.
As a cyclist people who don't cycle themselves miss judge the speed a cyclist is going. For example 20 mph is comfortable, but people pull out like I'm doing 5 mph. I just prepare to stop and expect that everyone is out to kill me. Assumptions are the... 😅
Not excusing the driver but you make a valid point about judging speed and I'm watching the footage thinking she is on an electric bike, the type with throttle. If this is the case then not only will it be even harder to judge speed but it's good argument to make proper crash helmets a legal requirement on fully electric bikes
If anything, this just proves how great your responsibility is whilst driving. A 'simple' mistake can have life-changing, or -ending consequences. Dangerous driving offences cannot be tolerated.
Lots of surprise about the punishment here but i think sentences like this are important to help drivers underatand their responsibility, and that simply 'sorry mate I didnt see you' isn't an excuse.
This video reminds me very much of the one made by Tom Scott regarding the Stop sign crossroads in the New Forest which also had a considerable number of accidents between motor vehicles and cyclists. Ashley did a follow up video on this after the junction was fixed. I've actually traversed that junction on the way to Beaulieu and remembered the two videos.
If I'm on my motorbike or bicycle approaching a junction like this, I've always slowed and been ready to stop as there is a good chance I haven't been seen. I probably get a pull out like this once a month, and have managed to avoid it every time (so far...). As the the saying goes, graveyards are full of people with the right of way... Its obviously the cars fault, but dont rely on others to keep you safe.
@@andyedwards7800 I see your point, but I slow early enough that it wouldn't give an indication to them, nor do I slow so much it would do the same. Just enough that I could stop if they do pull out. On faster roads, it isnt practical to slow all the time, so I check my mirrors and if need be adjust my speed and postion to be the most visible and to give myself options if they do move. Sometimes you can do everything right and you still get taken out. People just dont look for bikes, whether powered or not. I live in London, so that might explain the higher likelihood of stupidity from other road users!
"Member of a local cycling club" meaning she regularly rides in groups where motorists can easily see them coming. Looks like she applied the same style and technique to riding solo. Big mistake.
I agree with everything Ashley says with one exception. Ashley states that if he'd been the cyclist, there is no way in the world he'd have been going that fast. Certainly when you look at video the cyclist does look as if they're travelling pretty quickly. However, if you download the video and determine the distance the cyclist travels between frames, then you can determine their speed as about 15mph. The distances covered by the cyclist and the car in the second prior to the collision are approximately the same, which means the car was also travelling at about 15mph. The trajectory of the bike following the collision (not shown in Ashley's video) also suggests the car and bike velocities were similar. The car appears to be travelling far more slowly than the cyclist in the video because the cyclist is moving across the camera, whereas the car is moving almost directly towards it. I wouldn't therefore consider 15mph to be an excessive speed for a cyclist approaching this junction. UPDATE: I know agree with shm5547's calaculation that the cyclist's speed was about 25mph. I determined the 15fps frame rate from the clock in the video, which wasn't accurate. The actual frame rate of 25fps is available in the video statistics. I still wouldn't regard 25mph as an excessive speed for a cyclist to approach this junction, as I would expect most vehicle drivers to be travelling at least this fast in the same circumstances.
I don't know ... firstly I'm not making apologies for the motorist, or criticising the cyclist, but 25 mph on a road bike in damp conditions means emergency stops just aren't happening, no matter how good the brakes are - your tyres just won't support it. Having had one fairly serious experience getting launched over a bonnet in similar circumstances, I have a very pessimistic outlook on other road users now. Personally I'd be braced for trouble in a situation like that, which might involve scrubbing a bit of speed, but my behaviour these days is a product of my experiences. I hope the cyclist here can make a full recovery. Nobody deserves that, and I'll be happy to make it to that age, let alone be able to still ride with such vigour.
@@rowgli The ability to stop quickly on a damp road will be dependent on the bike tyres. If the bike has narrow slick tyres then I'd agree with you, however if the tyres do have a tread they should grip the road as well as a car or motorbike tyre. I'm 70 this month and although I cruise on the flat at less than 20mph, I can certainly reach 30-40mph going downhill. I don't know this road, but I don't think I'd be anxious going through that junction at 25mph. I agree that experience is valuable. I've had two collisions with cars in 50+ years. My speed wasn't a factor in either incident though. In fact in the second I was stationary! Almost all accidents are due to one or both parties not seeing the other. In both my accidents the driver admitted they hadn't seen me. Experience gives you a sort of 6th sense of where you may not be seen, but I'm not sure it would have kicked in here, as it's likely the cyclist didn't see the car either, until it was too late.
@@southwirralcyclist1986 This is a slight misconception about treaded vs slick tyres. Slick tyres on a car are dangerous because of aquaplaning. However a bicycle tyre has a much smaller contact patch with a more rounded shape, and therefore a bike would have to be riding around 70mph to start aquaplaning. A treaded tyre therefore does not offer any additional grip in the wet, in fact it offers slightly less due to the gaps between the rubber in contact with the road. Treaded tyres are beneficial for grip on mud or loose gravel, so they are more suitable for mountain or gravel bike riding.
@@nbartlett6538 Thanks for the info. I've never used slick tyres on a bike, although I tend to wear treaded ones down to the canvas! It's good to know it makes little difference to road grip.
Don't think he deserves jail honestly. The cyclist was in the perfect blind spot there. PSA to any cyclist that should be taught from a young age. Until you see the car see you, assume they don't see you.
Drivers barrel through that junction as fast or faster than the lady cycle rider did. As much as the driver was unsighted by the Grey Civic, so was the lady on the bike. She was way past the point of no return when the driver crossed through the junction. She would have had to brake at least 5 seconds ahead of the junction to avoid the collision. I doubt any one else travelling in the same direction as the lady by any form of vehicle would have slowed sufficiently to avoid the collision even if they were covering the brakes in anticipation.
It's not impossible she considered braking but thought the car behind would not pull out so quick as it did, so let off the brakes to clear the situation. Just an idea I have. Of course ideally she should have slowed down way in advance.
As a pedestrian I exercise my priority when crossing at junctions and even in 20 zones drivers act like I'm in the wrong. Even when they were nowhere near the junction. The attitude is "I'm in a car, get out of my way". I always think what if it's a kid next time and they fail to see them as they enter a junction at speed on the wrong side of the road 🤔
The cyclist did absolutely nothing wrong, she was wearing a high viz jacket and white helmet, she done everything to be more visible on the road. She was riding in a normal position and under the speed limit despite the decent. Driving standards need to be tightened and more in-depth training, because everyone has witnessed an increase of bad drivers on the road nowadays.
@bazzacuda_Good luck getting calibrated speedometers installed on every bicycle, even £179.00 bikes from Halfords and Decathlon. The speedometer will need to be mechanical as bicycles don't come with alternators and batteries, and cannot be rechargeable as there might not be the opportunity to recharge it.
It's not about being under the speed limit it's about being able to react. The car drivers fault 100 % but some cyclists need to loose the entitled attitude and be more willing to compromise. At the end of the day metal will always win over flesh.
The comments made in the video about the cyclist are absolutely wrong. The cyclist just has to obey the speed limit and expect motorists to obey the law, she shouldn't have to slow down in this situation, she had right of way. She was very visible and completely in the right.
From the moment the cyclist appears in the frame up until the car hits her, her legs aren't moving as she was free-wheeling down the slight descent so wasn't going any faster than what she could have done. No idea as to when she saw the car and applied the brakes though. Also, you say that the car driver couldn't see beyond the grey car to see her, but that is also true of the cyclist not being aware that the car is not going to stop - and even if she did I doubt she would have been able to stop in the time she had. Ok so may be she could have slowed a little on approaching the junction but as a cyclist I feel that this would cause more of an issue with drivers thinking 'I've got time to get across'...and how does that then impact on the speed of the cyclist and any traffic behind them? No doubt adding further issues of impatient drivers. I don't see that as being dangerous to me, even though we are classed as vulnerable road users (and I go everywhere by bike) there are times when you have to be assertive in your manner of cycling, speed and road positioning.
Exactly. Whatever this cyclist did, someone would apportion an amount of blame on her if she got hit - something that doesn't happen when it's car vs car if it's as obvious as this.
Listen to Ash. He said she should have been aware there could have been a hidden car. It was a tricky one I agree where everything aligned against the poor lady. I felt she had time to brake of swerve a little but did nothing. It would have taken a lot of skill and she still would likely have hit the car just at slower speed. Possible she never even saw the hidden car. Why we should brake if not sure. I try and look behind me when approaching a junction and get in the middle of the road. This makes it more likely I will be seen as cars look in the middle for other cars, not to the side for cycles. It also gives me more room to move to either side if I have to.
@@WansbeckBikecam yep, it seems if a cyclist is involved in a traffic incident, they MUST be partially to blame. This cyclist was wearing hi-viz and a helmet, she was driving to her priority and there was no indication that the driver was going to pull out on her. If she was driving a car instead of riding a bike and the exact same thing happened, nobody would question her responsibility in this incident. The analysis of this video seems to be a clear message to cyclists - 'know your place'. The only good thing to take from this is that the driver got a reasonable sentence.
@@glenn1534 agreed. I get the defensive riding take on this. Easy to see in hindsight but in reality she was on a main road freewheeling downhill probably at about 20 to 25 mph. Probably what any cyclist would be doing in the same place. Probably couldn't see the car emerging until it was too late to do anything about it. Very unpleasant experience for her and I'm actually amazed she wasn't more seriously injured or even killed. I'm pretty sure she will be feeling the effects for a long time.
This video brought tears to my eyes. I was the cyclist in a broadly similar event 30 years ago on an urban dual carriageway (roughly rush hour). Saw a car in the central reservation turning right across my path. It passed in front of me no problem but the driver of the car behind it in the queue to turn right followed across the carriageway and hit me. I landed in the opposite gutter as in the video. I saw the event unfold 'in slow motion' but did not have the skills/reactions (I was 19 at the time) to do anything other than make sure I hit the top of the bonnet rather than under the bumper. I felt (maybe right maybe not) that the driver made an understandable mistake in concentrating on whether there was a gap in the traffic on the carriageway. There had been a gap in front of me and I knew there was a gap behind me, so I was only disappointed (not shocked or surprised) that he pulled across my path. I'd hope my skills today would have caused me to slow to avoid the collision but my youthful joy in my fitness and my naiivety at the time took me straight into danger. The driver stopped & took me to hospital where I was diagnosed with a fractured skull. Took a while to recover.. The police wanted to charge the driver for careless driving but I did not agree to this out of a feeling that the driver made an honest mistake which could have been done by anyone (including me; I was/am a driver) and I felt that the driver was sufficiently shocked by the event that legal punishment wouldn't have helped much. Again; maybe right maybe wrong, but that's how I felt. I still have my bent bike frame hanging on the garage wall to this day as a reminder to take care & observe. And I'm still not perfect.
A typical reason for this is so called selective vision. We see what we look for, while we see «through» what we don’t look for. Typically we look out for danger, like other cars. But since pedestrians and bicyclists are not dangerous to us, our brains don’t process their precense. But this a matter of training our brains to change this «attitude» or rather lack of attitude. In Norway, where I live, drivers are very good at stopping for pedestrians who want to cross a zebra crossing. The pedestrians are very much on their radars, not like a blip, but as a important object to handle. Your case may have been this «blip», just as the cyclist in the video.
Thank you for this. I have been battling other cyclists thinking that if I have the right away, I can travel as fast as I can. It seems that defensive driving goes out of one’s head at times. From an old movie “your fault, my fault, no one’s fault, you’re still dead.
I agree with everything said. I also remember the "think bike" campaign, very relevant here. It's something I always do at junctions, but then I am a cyclist first, and a motorist very much second.
Prison seems excessively harsh. My most recent close call with a car pulling out that I was able to avoid was a woman driver with kids in the car leaving a community centre who 'didnt see me'. If I had been injured I wouldnt expect her to be jailed. I could stand on a street in town and in 10 minutes see many examples of downright dangerous driving I'd like to see prosecuted. This was careless mistake that all drivers have done if we are honest.
1 year harsh!.. NO. But if it is there's an easy way to avoid it, for instance, stopping at a give way. A man diving down the road past several junctions, eventually approaches another junction where another driver exited without stopping, his car was knocked down the road the other driver was headed, the other driver came to a stop in the road they didn't give way to. The other driver who failed to stop just hurled abuse towards the victim. Hope the dashcam got her rightly punished.
As a motorcyclist, I know its somewhat different, but I have been riding and driving for over 40 years, and in all that time I have had one accident on my bike, totally my fault!! I ride with the notion that no one sees me and I will ride defensively, meaning that I not only have to think for myself, but other road users also. I have been a professional driver for many, and an HGV advanced driver, and in this particular case, IMHO the cyclist was not at fault in any way. The driver of the car had an outright duty to ensure that the road ahead was clear before moving off, and if your sight line is obscured, wait until you are completely sure. We are now all in a real hurry to get from point A to point B and sometimes that pressure causes people to do stupid and dangerous things, but as we can see, the results can be catastrophic. Sentencing is a joke, not that I think this case was harsh, but there does need to be a review to ensure that the deterrent is enough to reduce such incidents.
And note the silver vehicle just carries on driving past despite the cyclist lying by the side of the road. The least he could have done is stop alongside so no other vehicle could run him over.
The driver would have seen the cyclist do a complete somersault and land in the road just ahead of them too. The driver would also have been a witness to what happened, which would have been invaluable had the CCTV camera not been there. I'm afraid many road users just don't want the hassle of getting involved.
Dont blame the cyclist. The driver just like most learn false patterns which eventually one day go wrong. I cant stand drivers going dull to reality. Alway, always look out for what you cant see.
@@abt833 I do think that is a stretch to describe that as blame, to be honest. I see it as 'let's reflect to see if anything could have been done to have achieved a better outcome'. Ashley does say that it is totally the car driver's fault.
@@TheBadVideoMaker I like Ashley's work and he treats cyclists well. But the wording in this video is a lot more harsh against the cyclist than Ashley usually is.
The driver is clearly in the wrong here, as people have said already there's a big difference between "I can't see anything" and "I can see there is nothing". I do wonder though, if the positions were reversed and a cyclist emerged on this road while a car sped through the junction without considering emerging traffic, would the cyclist be put 100% at fault or would the driver be criticised for not considering the possibility of traffic emerging and slowing down? I know I'd have been marked down on my motorcycle test if I went through a crossroads at 30mph without slowing or being prepared to stop.
The cycling Community would probably say, that you should expect people to be emerging at crossroads, and plan accordingly. Cyclists have priority over cars, don't you know. /s (only in certain situations, and against give-way lines, isn't one)
I had an almost identical scare on Sunday someone pulled out turning right from a side junction across me then stoped way across the centre line of the road I was cycling down, its 20mph limit as well being Wales. I continued as they stoped just to be close passed and then they had to stop in 20yrds for a roundabout. My 25 mile ride only had this short 200yrds section on the road the rest was cycleway and I had daylight running lights and bright gloves and jacket and they still can't see. The guy in your clip if you drive you have a great responsibility and a lot of drivers don't get this.
On a daily basis, you see lackadaisical road use. Thankfully, most of the time, it ends up not being an issue aside from mild annoyance at the offending party/parties. However, when it does become an issue, it often ends up as a horrible incident like this. Everyone needs to stop riding their luck on the road. The next lazy action they take could end up being someone’s last.
This video is going to cause a stir on certain sections of Twitter who will interpret this as victim blaming because they are completely incapable of seeing anything other than in a fault based mindset as opposed to an avoidance mindset. The most important consideration for them is who is at fault and everything then flows from that reasoning. To you and most sensible folk who aren't delivering punishments, it's less who is at fault but rather how can it be avoided in the first place and are there any steps one can take, even if that person is not at fault, to avoid it. This avoidance based mindset is the entire foundation of how defensive riding/driving works which is obviously alien to them. Sensible video that will be poorly received.
Well said 👏👏👏 This should be pinned to the top so everyone can see it immediately as this sums up everything that is wrong with attitudes today but at the same time how it can be fixed with little effort from everyone
i am sure you are slowing down to a low speed on every intersection when you are driving your car on a road with the right of way. Then you accellerate up again after passing it and then repeat this every 100 meters, as the good defensive driver you are. Probably the cars behind you will show their annoyance. But why should you care? But when you are riding a bicycle, this way will give you good (hard) excersise. So perhaps you don’t want to slow down like this, because it takes some juice out of your legs. If you are 71 years old, even more. Sure you want to be defensive in your way of driving/riding. But you are not a machine, you are a human who can zone out from time to time. Especially in the end of a long training ride. Pointing fingers is easy. Living up to the standard all the time can be hard. And that is what annoys me more and more about this channel. Sure, everybody should act perfectly all the time. But that is not what is real life.
Working out how an accident might have been avoided is addressing a problem that no longer exists. Finding fault is addressing the problem that does exist. We can all play Captain Hindsight.
@@jeremyashford2145 it's hardly only a skill that can only be used in hindsight. It's like not driving alongside someone on a roundabout as they often will drift lanes, or avoiding going down the inside of a lorry as a cyclist in case they don't see you. Were they to turn into accidents neither would be your fault, but were you anticipating them in advance you'd avoid the incident altogether. This is the point.
@@th5841 the whole point you've clearly missed because you reference "pointing fingers" is that no one is doing that. Again you just can't see it and you demonstrate exactly what I say is the issue.
Yet again you fall into biased, car-centric victim blaming. The cyclist was doing 19mph, on a perfectly straight, perfectly clear section of oad, wide and with good sight lines. You say you wouldn't be going that fast, yet 20 mph is the MINIMUM usually set speed limit for motor vehicles on UK roads, and very few of those and only in built up areas, the road in the video is probably at least 40mph, possibly 60, so the cyclist is doing half of the speed limit at most. The cyclist could not, and should not need to, do anything else, this was 100% the driver's fault. If their view is obscured for any reason, they must take more care before and while manoeuvring. If the moving car in front of them obscures enough of the road for a human sized object to not be visible, then they must wait for their view of the road to be clear. They must not expect other road users to anticipate their incompetence and take avoiding action. The fact that people do that sometimes does not set a precedent! Please, please stop with the victim blaming!
As a thought process, in a car you are expected to be able to stop in the distance you can see. If a kid runs in front of you, you are expected to be able to stop. How does that rule work on a bicycle? If i am on a bicycle and have a stopping distance twice that of a car (or more), am i still ok to ride at the speed limit? Or should i be riding more slowly to account for my lower braking capability? I am reluctant to victim-blame, and i am not doing so here because the car driver clearly is at fault, but is it not a reasonable expectation also that the cyclist should have been riding at a speed where she could have exercised some control over the event?
@@15bit62 Why do you say the stopping distance for a bike is twice that of a car? Is that a guess? If so, it's a poor one. As a general rule a cyclist can stop in half the distance of a driver, this has shifted a bit over the years as car brakes have improved, and they have got bigger and heavier, bike brakes have improved, and discs brakes are becoming more common. But there are other factors, probably more pertinent; a cyclist is much more manoeuvrable, able to quickly avoid an obstacle (go to Amsterdam to watch Dutch cyclists easily avoid most UK and US sightseers that wander into the cycle lanes 😂) Cyclists are generally more observant and assess risk much faster than drivers who do not cycle, that's why cyclists make better drivers than those who don't cycle, we tend to be able to share the road more equitably, better anticipate risk, and to take fewer risks, as demonstrated by the incompetent driver in the video. The driver did not 'make a mistake', they were incompetent, it's that simple.
@@CraggRock Experience with cars, motorbikes and bicycles. I know modern bike disc brakes are amazing, but i don't for a moment believe in reality that a bicycle can stop anywhere near as fast as a car. I never could on a motorbike, and i've yet to see a test with professional drivers where it happened. The grip is in principle there, but the high centre of gravity and the shift forward of the rider's weight under a real emergency situation make it unobtainable. Plus ABS - a car driver just has to stamp on the pedal and steer. A bike/bicycle rider has to apply the brakes with some care and balance, controlling the fact that the bike is on only one wheel (if they have hit the brakes to maximum effect).
That isn't the question. The question is how to stop vulnerable road users being hit and injured. I don't think it's any comfort to the injured cyclist to know that they were legally blameless.
Maybe to stop all traffic incidents we reduce the speed limit on all roads until there are none. If he follows the rules no accident the lady did nothing wrong. She rode in this manner straight and not doing anything wrong don’t blame the victim.
@Leidolfr no it doesn’t make sense. You’ve done something wrong - you cooked it for too long. You’re talking absolute nonsense, stop trying to justify it as you’re tying yourself in knots doing so.
@@ynotnilknarf39 what a well constructed intelligent comment well done you.🤣 Amazing how you can spot a BMW or Audi driver even by their you tube comments., what a dolt.🤣🤣🤣🥴
Ashley using your diagnosis of the accident its possible the cyclist never saw the red car either, so felt no need to slow down. It doesn't make to right suggest that the cyclists was anyway to blame for what happened to her though. That is a very surprising sentence tbh. Ive seen cyclists killed for similar and motorists get off virtually scot free.
>never saw the red car either, so felt no need to slow down. But that's the mistake. Unless you can see that there is no conflicting traffic, you should be slowing down. And with that kind of junction, you should be slowing down anyway.
@@ryanmitcham5522 No, that is NOT the mistake, the women did ZERO wrong, Neal does not apply this when driving or riding his bike in any case. Focusing on what the vulnerable could/should do means less focus on those doing the harm. this ends up with more harm for the vulnerable, hence since helmet wearing has been pushed, we've seen a 50% increase in cyclist serious injuries in the UK whilst all other road users have seen a drop since the mid 00s - when helmets began to be pushed in racing and for general riding. repeat that in countries that mandated helmet wearing for ordinary riding and all sports that mandated them.
So that’s ok then isn’t it, 19.2 mph? If it was a car doing that speed you’d say they were going a reasonable/careful speed and it was entirely the red cars fault, so why is any blame being imparted on the cyclist here?
@@neilmartin3013 >so why is any blame being imparted on the cyclist here? Because a cyclist is not a car. You have to be aware that as a small cyclist you are less visible than a large car, therefore safe approach speeds are not the same.
Problem comes with nothing happening 99.99% of the time so most road users can become complacent in everyday road use - it’s a miracle that the statistics aren’t far worse. Unfortunately for both parties it was one of those moments - fortunately the cyclist was okay but as a cyclist and driver I think the sentence was harsh in contrast to other examples where there have been fatalities or near misses - spending a year in jail is not going to help society imo
@@mikewade777 no, because then the murderers, rapists, paedos etc would be running free committing their respective crimes again and again (in some cases) - put yourself in the position of the driver, as a driver, which presumably you are and ask yourself *if* you made this mistake, horrifying as it was, would you put your hand up to be locked up for a year? Considering also that worse accidents and fatalities happen every day yet sentencing is more lenient when they hit the news? The US woman who killed the motorcyclist by driving the wrong way springs to mind plus all the hit and runs where the police didn’t pursue them - it seems this case was an easy target to throw the book at imo…
@bazzacuda_ this is exactly the problem when stories are reported in this manner i.e. "driver gets jail for hitting cyclist" - at face value, purely based on the footage, the driver didn't look like he was playing GTA and running over grannies on bikes on purpose - he paused and pulled out rather than blast through the junction. Similarly he stopped rather than "hit and run" and thus on the assumption he didn't have a string of previous careless/dangerous driving convictions, nor was there permanent damage as it were i.e. no fatality or life changing injuries, my point is that this could happen to "(m)any" drivers - it probably does in car on car scenarios at junctions just like this - BUT it seems like someone is trying to make an example with the sentence, whilst not a bad thing (I also cycle and have idiots close pass me or drive straight at me *intentionally*) I have sympathy for the driver here, when as I stated above, other intentional crimes have lesser consequences...
Agree it does fall below the standard but as Ashley also points out, it was a mistake that even he thinks happens a lot. So I rewatched the clip again a couple of times - it was careless (not classed as dangerous as I wrongly assumed) but my conclusion remains the same - it was not intentional just like many accidents on the roads and by comparison to other reports of worse instances and fatalities (aside from any assumptions about background) a year in jail plus the criminal record is overly harsh imo - again put yourself in the driver’s position and *if* you made a similar mistake would you feel differently to a year in jail with the paedos, drug dealers, rapists etc? That’s not to say he doesn’t deserve a punishment but I still don’t understand what a year in jail will do for him or society when he is already banned and also had the criminal conviction - I would personally think that society has failed me at that point and call it a day 😢
It's obvious that the car was mainly at fault but I can guarantee this wouldn't have happened if I was the cyclist. I would not have been approaching that junction at such speed, especially with all those cars around. I also suspect I would have seen the car pulling out earlier and could have avoided it by going behind. The lessons you promote Ashley should be the lessons the government should promote; Everyone is responsible for everyone's safety and we all need to look out for each other. But we also need to take personal responsibility and reduce the risk to ourselves where possible.
Halleluja!, One of the more sensible comments, from someone that realises that safety is everyone's responsibility - and that the person that is mainly responsible for safety, is that person themselves.
My take away is not to make progress at a junction where the view is limited. Instead of an emerge, just stop and wait until it is really clear. That’s something I’m going to add because I’m not certain I would have seen that cyclist under the circumstances. If I’d been on the bike I’d have slowed down at the junction, there were cars there anyway, so the danger was apparent, but I’d do that anyway because of the chance of a driver shooting across at high speeds - I’ve seen that happen in a town centre.
On looking at video, the car did not even stop fully. He slowed, had in my opinion a micro look, & carried on. Very careless driving. Had he stopped to look, the collision probably would not have happened. Every day, motorists just pull out & many don't look.
Still trying to dig at the cyclist, she did nothing wrong at all the idiot driver should of stopped give himself a few seconds then he would of seen cyclist
The driver was just in a hurry to get across what can be a busy road, and did the minimal observations possible. He had already decided to go when the grey car started moving. As a cyclist though you can never afford to be head down, whenever I am approaching junctions I have my fingers covering the brake lever and am thinking of escape routes should one of the cars at the junction start moving.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about how it's the police and insurance companies who have to take a blame based look at situations like this. That doesn't mean on a human level the rest of us have to see it that way, and shouldn't strive to avoid situations like this from occurring by trying to all share the road as best as we can.
The police and CPS got it right, the driver failed to stop at the give way line when it was not safe to proceed, they commited the offence of careless driving.
As much as I have total sympathy for the cyclist and of course, it was the motorists fault but I'm genuinely surprised at the sentence imposed, including jail time. I could perhaps understand if it was drunk driving or a stolen car but this was a surprise. Basically, any one of us could end up being arrested and serve jail time for a fairly basic mistake, even though we may otherwise be good drivers. Again, total sympathy to the cyclist but I do find this worrying.
Yes, I feel like this should fall into a category of careless driving rather than dangerous driving. I've seen people driving deliberately badly and injuring people getting a lesser sentence.
actions have consequences. if you operate lethal machinery then there is no room for mistakes. more people need to realise this instead of pretending car crashes and deaths are inevitable.
Definitely dangerous driving the lack of observation is unforgivable. As for the sentence it’s a miracle that the victim wasn’t killed and the perpetrator shouldn’t get a lesser sentence just because of a miracle. It shows a weakness in driver licensing and training they need awareness training of how vulnerable other users are….. compulsory experience cycling or horse riding on the public highway would open their eyes to the impact of their poor behaviour.
@@TPH250290would you feel that way if it was you or a relative on the bike whom this happened to? Should have been banned for longer and retested before he gets his licence back.
A sensible analysis, I think. I doubt I would have driven through that crossroads at that speed, let alone cycled. I know momentum is a thing, but eejits in metal boxes are a bigger thing. Don't trust them.
A few years ago I was hit by a car speeding through a red light, i fractured my spine in three places plus a lot of smaller injuries. The first thing Jessica McManus (the driver) said while I was still on the floor was i just need to ring my boss to say I'll be late. This is before ringing for an ambulance. When the police showed up there main priority was clearing the busy road. Not only that, the driver tried to sue me for damage to the car. A year later i saw her racing along the same road.
I gave up cycling many years ago because of similar incidents - the only difference being that I was able to stop or avoid being yet another statistic due to my observations and/or travelling at a lower speed. The car driver should've stopped at the Give Way markings as this might've enabled enough time to correctly assess the situation. FWIW - Thanks for redacting some of that footage.
There's interesting research from fighter jet pilots that shows why SMIDSYs (Sorry Mate I Didn't See You) crashes happen. You can actually genuinely have looked, but for various reasons the brain does not extract the key details from the images. Given this and the huge proportion of accidents that happen at junctions, I do the following. 1. Look in BOTH directions at least TWICE (the second scan adds further information, and allows for vehicle / pedestrain movements) 2. Another concept from aviation I apply is the concept of a sterile flight deck. This means that at key moments (eg take-off / landing) conversation between crew is kept to an absolute necessary minimum. On the road I apply this as at difficult junctions, exiting motorways, driving in unfamiliar town centre layouts I will mute music / radio and if I have passengers ask them just to pause conversations. I know this will be inconvenient and OTT to most people, but my attitude on the road is that my key responsibility is to make sure that others, along with myself are safe.
Yep, 100%, it's a shame more folk aren't told about saccadic masking. I find it intriguing that our eyes see everything but our brains decide what we actually 'see' also make things up too, by prediction. A useful tip to prevent Saccadic masking at junctions is to focus on something near & far by sweeping your gaze up & down too, whilst turning your head slower then normal, not snapping your head left/right quickly. It takes a while to learn, but I've found it very useful.
From looking at the video, it's a downhill section and the temptation to pick up speed and momentum is there. But as the cyclist is more vulnerable, they should cycle defensively and expect not to be seen. As Ashley said, it looks like the grey car blocked the view and the cyclist couldn't be seen briefly. The driver of the red car maybe knew the road and perhaps they were a bit complacent. I think the accident would've happened even if the cyclist was cycling more slowly, but it would've been less severe. I cycle too and the temptation when cycling quickly downhill is there, but I'm always aware of my vulnerability against metal boxes. I've seen worse examples of driving, but it's a painful lesson for everyone involved.
Going downhill needs care and I use the brakes to keep the speed down. Hit a pothole or an animal running across the road is risky too. I reign my speed in at junctions and try and be prepared.
Ive only been driving a little under a year, but the number of times that something unseen has emerged after i took an extra second to look again is staggering. Where i live there are tons of cyclist, mopeds, kids on scooters, and unfortunately, just bad drivers and tailgaters. Loads of the junctions are narrow and difficult to see around due to cars parked right up to the junction. Just take a couple of extra seconds to be sure, and remember to creep. It really doesn't slow your journey down as much as people think it does.
I wonder, did the driver even look to his left? He had a passenger. Did he rely on their observation? My wife, also a qualified driver, tries to assist in this way when she is a passenger. I always double check, not relying on her continuing to look, and confirm for myself that it's clear to proceed.
When crossing a road on foot or in a car (as in this example) you should be looking left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right until you are across the road. If you fail to see a car or a cyclist the first time, with my method you will see it the 2nd time or the 3rd time. That should be good enough to avoid a collision. I have seen countless examples of pedestrians and motorists who look once then cross with head locked in the forward position.
I must say Ashley learned me to think more in terms of "have I been seen" -- when approaching a junction like at 4:00 in the video, I'd definitely slow down because of the blocked view to the left.
That hi viz vest didn't help him! I can't see the custodial sentence being much use when the effort isn't being put in to educating drivers. His misfortune was he failed to see a cyclist, there will be thousands of very similar collisions, just involving cars, every year that the police pay no attention to.
The problem is idiot motorists are not actually looking at what is there, all their feeble mind is telling them is a motor vehicle isn't there, because that is all they are looking for. I ride my bike with a headlamp on at all times, bright to fluorescent clothing, and a light on top of my helmet in the dark. I have had way too many close calls with motorists, any that I was able to converse with, all said 'I didn't see you' Seems to me they are not competent and shouldn't be driving if that's the case. Still waiting for the first apology also.
What I don't understand is that drivers haven't gotten away with far worse, either because they know the right people or because they can't be traced (cloned plates, rental car, owner refuses to say who was driving, etc etc etc) or after the driver called his cousins brothers uncles private hire taxi firm and got a lift away from the area.
“Do you think the cyclist could have done anything better? Absolutely” Absolute nonsense. Absolute ****ing nonsense. She was going at less than 20 mph. That’s not too fast for the conditions at ALL. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if a car was going at that speed and the same thing had happened. Or are you telling us you slow down to
This judgement on how the cyclist could have reduced risk is, I feel, fair, but it’s important to note that it doesn’t get rid of the risk entirely due to blame with the driver. I had a similar issue recently, except I slowed down significantly upon approaching the junction, and the car didn’t look and pulled out on me anyway, knocking me off my bike. I’m thankfully okay, but it goes to show there is still a lot of responsibility with drivers. This happened while I was using a segregated cycle lane as well!
To be completely honest I think I would ride my bike just as fast on that downhill in nice dry conditions with good visibility like this. However seeing the way the red car is approaching the intersection even before the grey car croses the give way line somehow screemed to me "this one is not stopping" even before you started explaining. I was very surprised there was no visible effort to stop by the cyclist. I would have been braking hard before I even entered the field of view of the camera that filmed this. And my bike stops about 30% faster than what is physically possible for an upright like this cyclist was riding. That should be enough to pass behind the rear of the red car rather than hit its front left corner. But it would have been close, very close. Probably avoiding a crash but definitely not something that could be declared "safe". I really hate to admit this but Ashley is right and what my normal speed is in situations like this is not as safe as it should be even if I assume zero mistakes in my observation. Something to keep in mind.
Honestly, I'd ride at a similar speed downhill too, but if I saw a hazard like a pedestrian about to cross (in my state, Oregon, they have priority at all intersections), a car masked behind another car that couldn't see me, or something similar, then I'd slow down
have you considered she didn't see the car in the same way Neal states the car driver didn't see the rider? There should never be any onus on the vulnerable here to do anything different, moving focus onto the vulnerable away from those that harm means more harm occurs!
@@ynotnilknarf39 I have considered it but the situation is not symmetrical. She can be hidden from the red car driver by even a portion of the grey car especially given how glued to it he drove. However if there ever was a moment the grey car completely masked the entire red car for her it was a very short moment. I think the interval for which she couldn't see the red driver was quite long but a good portion of his car was visible most of the time or possibly all of the time. And a car coming my way whose driver I cannot see is another thing that screams "start braking" to me. I have been in very very similar situations before. And after I started using my current system of lights over 15 years ago the situation where I cannot see the head of the driver is the only one with high risk I am not being noticed in time. So maybe that's why I am so used to watching out for it. Again not her fault she got hit but I think the opportunity to fix the red driver's mistake or at least lessen its consequences was there even after the decision to ride the downhill at that speed. But my judgement on it might be wrong because it has been over 20 years since I have ridden an upright bike at that speed. So my mental model of the braking distance and how controllable such bike is during emergency braking is quite rusty. I'm much more used to the longer wheelbase and lower center of mass and higher moment of inertia around the vertical axis that my current bike has. Maybe she couldn't do much once she had that speed and being slower in the first place would have been her only chance.
Ashely your analysis here is garbage. A) the driver was charged with causing serious injury through careless driving and was given the starting point sentence for the offence. B)The cyclist WAS seriously injured. You entirely omitted that she had a bleed on the brain. C) she was visibly traveling at 19mph - she has likely slowed considerably coming down the hill where the coasting speed is 30mph. D) your comment that you would not pass through a junction without being sure the driver has seen you is clearly nonsense, many drivers look but do not see and in many scenarios it is impossible to tell if a driver has seen you, at night for instance. E)under the TRL study that you have previously cited regarding stopping distance. Even travelling at 7mph she would have likely still collided with the vehicle (hitting it this time as opposed to being hit by the driver. I assume your bias here has led you to vastly overestimate her speed or possibly underestimate the speed that you pass junctions in your car (or bike). This really was all down to the driver.
@@ggnombe3832Ironically, I feel that if this took place at night. The flashing strobe lights (assuming the cyclist has them) might have been more likely to be seen through the grey car's windows or over the car, assuming they had helmet lights. Compared to this rainy day weather with no lights.
Yeah I agree that it's hard to see if a driver has seen you at night. But as someone who commuted out and about, if you look directly at driver's face in their cars (during the day), you can tell quite easily most of the time when they haven't seen you, because you won't see their face. Honestly I don't know if I would have done anything differently if I were the cyclist here, other than maybe also slow down, or even go upright on my bike to see over the grey car to ensure the car on the junction has seen me. But that's all hindsight.
One thing that I think many people are not aware of is how easy it is to miss cyclist. When we scan at an intersection we move our eyes quickly from left to right. If our brain kept the data of those fast movements our vision would be blurry. So our brain prefers to see pictures. The stuff between those frames/pictures our brain makes up. And this is the point where a cyclist can get lost. One way to avoid that is to slow down the scan. Give your brain the time to take everything in. It's better to take one second longer than to turn that second into a year. And to the cyclist. Intersections are a danger zone. Act accordingly.
Not to mention I have read that there is some evidence that when making observations in a busy urban environment, because of the sheer amount of things happening, your brain will filter out things that aren't going to threaten you such as cyclists and motorcyclists. Which means that a cyclist could actually be observed plainly but be discarded. That being said I've done the exact same thing before on my bike and completely missed a car, so maybe that theory has been overstated!
Drivers in Japan FEAR hitting cyclists and they know it! One night my brother commented to his now wife when cars screech safely to a halt as a cyclist in black and without lights cut across their path to get into a side road. In an accident the driver(s) would be arrested, possibly by her father who was a Japanese police officer. My brother thinks Japanese drivers train themselves to notice cyclist. P.S. He used bike and train while in Japan. P.P.S. Bikes parked in the wrong place are removed quickly.
There must have been additional circumstances to the sentencing. Ie some history because as a first offence that seems massively ridiculous tbh (And I have huge sympathy for the cyclist and the motorist 99% at fault)
I wonder if the speed of the cyclist can be calculated from the video footage? or are there too few frames? I also noticed from google street view that there was a digital 'Your Speed' sign close to the junction on the main road.
There are 16 frames with the cyclist shown prior to the collision and the cyclist covers one bike length in 4 frames. The video is 15 frames per second. That gives 15mph. It doesn't look as if the cyclist was able to slow significantly, but that doesn't surpirise me as she only had a single second to react after the car crossed the give way line.
When I saw "71 year old cyclist" I wasn't expecting to see someone riding like a bat out of hell, was quite surprised! I know it was downhill but sheesh! Based on the distance she covered on google maps and the time of the collision she was doing approx 30.57 mph! I thought my grandad was fast!
Had a near miss for the same reason. Was travelling at 20mph+ on a wide fast road on bicycle in the wet, only 1 other car on my side. As a car came to a giveway to my right to turn right, didn't see me due to the car overtaking me. He waited till the car passed then pulled out infront of me, not looking as just waiting for the car to pass. I sent the video to the police but asked them to have a word with the driver , but not to prosecute as they simply need to improve their observation skills by looking again before pulling out and needing to realise that there could be something in a blindspot behind a vehicle..
It's always a red flag when I'm cycling past a junction as a car obstructs the view of the car waiting at the junction. I always subconsciously think that that one car has essentially made me invisible. That's why I always find it a good idea to go tall on the bike to look over cars and see what they do.
Question: (I know this is a bit of whataboutery, but I think it’s an interesting question) If this was two cars and the car on the main road ploughed into the bonnet of the car pulling across without even a hint of braking. Would they face any repercussions?
Depends if an occupant was injured as equally as the cyclist in this example (in a fair world anyway - but the courts seem to have a pretty wide scale for this, which shouldn't be the case).
It probably wouldn't have resulted in any injuries and so the police probably wouldn't have got involved. It's unlikely therefore that the CCTV footage would have been examined. The insurance companys would put the red car driver at fault as they crossed the give way. The driver of a car on the main road would only be considered to be at fault if there was evidence they were breaking the speed limit.
There seems to be confusion whether the cyclist pled guilty to 'careless' or 'dangerous' driving. The daily mail article mentions both, and even this video features both, which was it?
That reminds Me of a collision I was in. I stopped at a stop sign, I had an obstructed view, I did NOT creep forward before making the decision to go. I got hit in the front passenger corner, and got pushed up the sidewalk into a telephone pole. No one was injured. I learned My lesson, I'm a really careful driver.
Thank God the cyclist survived that devastating crash at 71 years old. Clearly she is fit, and I think it played a role, however her injuries will likely linger for the rest of her life. Your analysis is first class, Ashley.
I wasn't sure about saying the cyclist should have been able to have stopped in time , and that she seemed to be going too fast and the car didn't seem to be. The camera angle and perspective may have been misleading and i was not sure that in that case i was being unfair but then you revealed that there was a slight hill , and I can imagine her free wheeling , so it was an unfortunate set of circumstances, taking the grey car into account.
If a car doing 19mph hit the red car, everyone would blame the red car no question asked. The attempt to blame the cyclist shows just what's wrong on the roads.
My policy now is to look for eye contact after a driver ran over my front wheel, I was saved from going under by my low speed, I was able to avoid body contact and roll away from the car, what I don't get is why that woman kept on going after her front wheels went over something as large as a bike!
I can't help but notice the toxic comments surrounding the original video too. Mostly blaming the lady for going too fast. One guy had done some crude calculations and posted the results, showing she was doing approximately 19 mph with the speed limit being 30. I'm not saying she course have done anything to protect herself, but wow, there's some nasty people out there...
Why does everyone immediately compare things to rape thinking it is victim blaming? It is not Advice is already given to help people avoid that, don’t walk down dark alleys, walk with friends or companions when you can, stay in busy areas. This video includes advice about keeping yourself safe by reducing speed, reducing risk at high risk points on the road and keeping safe
All the “advice” you say is given to women is effectively victim blaming? Why *should* women have to do that? Because some men are dickheads. Why *should* cyclists have to do that? Because some drivers are dickheads. In this case the driver was a dickhead and the cyclist is 100% the victim. The problem as it stands needs to be dealt with at source
Thankyou Ashley yes maybe we all do this . This is precisely the reason I watch your videos. For my benefit . I learn from someone else’s mistake . Sorry for the rider and driver . I can do something to make sure that I do no harm . That was a shocker but so worthy . I hope we all can just stop watch and pay attention to this video and then maybe save a life or change a course of terrible action. 👍
WOW: Talk about Victim-blaming and gaslighting the poor 71 year old cyclist who sustained multiple injuries which you claim were not serious? 5 days in hospital!! I hope you never get hit by a one ton plus vehicle while you're on your bike!!
He won’t. He NEVER does anything even close to remotely wrong when he’s on the road, car or bike included. Haven’t you watched his videos? He’s perfect
@@neilmartin3013 Stop it!! Your comment was way too funny😂😂 I know he's perfect? Wearing dark clothing, dark coloured helmet and having no lights on to be better seen when testing out an E-bike that was sent to him.
Here's one to add fuel to the fire: I've been in the opposite situation, when I was driving along a road, when I approached a junction. A moped was approaching the give-way line, on the left, at the junction about 30m away. The rider looked to their left, but not right, towards me. The moped was not slowing down for the give way. Then I noticed the green deliveroo box, so I prepared to slow or stop. at 10m away the rider looked directly at me, then pulled out, turning left. I was already slowing, expecting exactly that. Since I had priority, should I have carried on, and knocked the rider off?, after all it was his fault, as i had priority. Of course not, when approaching junctions, i look into them, and if there is someone turning, then I slow slightly, so they can clear. I was taught that if you can't see, then don't go. It stopped me being run-over many times. Many people don't look, when turning left, they just continue. The best one, was a sunday cycle club, just stream out of a junction, over the give way, while I was approaching. None of them even looked, I did'nt expect them to, as they approached at pace, looking left. So I stopped an waited, as they streamed through, not one looked right, at all.
How many drivers out there get annoyed by waiting behind a car looking right, left, right, left. I know I’ve been beeped a few times. Imagine if we relent to bullies. This could happen.
I don't think it's fair to fault the cyclists speed here. I've had a similar encounter happen to me, except it was on a roundabout. I had slowed to 12kph, he slowed, we made eye contact, but he didn't stop to emerge. Luckily, he noticed me eventually, screeched to a halt, and missed me by inches. It was slow-motion for me. There was nothing I could've done to avoid it. I was entirely reliant on the driver seeing me. Ii's the arrogance of these types of drivers thats the problem here. They seem incapable of calculating risk. The confidence these people have that nothing bad will happen is revolting. That cyclist could have been going walking speed (it happens to pedestrians too), and still been hit.
I've literally made eye contact with drivers and they've still pulled out in front of me at junctions. Some drivers are terrible at judging how fast a cyclist is travelling or simply don't care.
I've been cycling for many years and I consider roundabouts as the most dangerous situation for cyclists. You also get may rear endings (vehicle on vehicle) entering roundabouts for the same reasons. Drivers enetering a roundabout are judging whether vehicles already on the roundabout are far enough away that the've time to pull out. They aren't focussed on what's immediately in front of them whether that be another vehicle ahead of them, that has stopped unexpectedly, or a cyclist. I thereofre always ensure I have a plan B on roundabouts if a driver does pull out. Generally, I'd consider myself safe going through the junction in the video though, at a similar speed to this cyclist. There are nevertheless circumstnaces where it isn't safe. A combination of an impatient driver and the view of driver and cyclist being obscured by another vehicle.
A lot of drivers don’t understand the extremely important difference between “I can’t see anything coming” and “I can see that there’s nothing coming.”
"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Too many people don't get it.
Really good way of wording that. Been helping teach my friend about safe riding (motorbike) to get him on the road. Gonna have to steal that one
The disparity of sentences when it comes to stuff like this is insane. This guy was jailed yet a fella who hit a 10 year old girl on a bike while going through a red, drove off then tried to swap his plates to cover up only got a £900 fine?
It is really strange. Over in Scotland people regularly die due to careless driving and the offenders often get only suspended gaol sentences, or none at all. I think the punishment in this case is more reasonable than in these others.
And the guy who hit me in a similar fashion was let go without charge, officers didn't even report it as a collision even though it was all caught on camera. 2 years later and the police are still investigating their own officers behaviour at the scene, they are facing a mis conduct charge
The cycalist was probably a member of the same bowling club as the judge.
Agreed. We see way too many instances of blatantly dangerous driving (and/or uninsured drivers) receiving little more than a token slap on the wrist - whilst this guy simply makes a stupid decision and goes to jail for a year. It's the offence itself that should be punished - the outcome is a different matter and should be dealt with in the form of "damages" and compensation.
Yes that case was particularly egregious. I think there was some victim blaming by the judge as the girl didn’t have lights or hi-viz on.
so this occurred in broad day light and the cyclist was wearing a high vis jacket. there really isn't any excuse for not seeing the cyclist.
not stopping at the give way line and taking a look both ways is really inexcusable.
When drivers say "I didn't see you" they really mean "I wasn't looking"
@@northeastcyclist1507 well said, you'll never see what you aren't looking for
I have been beeped from behind for not following a car blindly out of a junction and as the car cleared a motorbike came passed. Even after that vehicle behind blindly followed me out of the junction 🤦♂️
This here is the reason I take an extra second or two before emerging
I can totally relate and just made a similar comment.
@@ibs5080 I think it is something that happens everywhere unfortunately. Best thing is to remember that their impatience is their problem and to never be rushed into anything you are not comfortable with.
One guaranteed way to annoy them though is to stall the car as you emerge 😉
Never just follow the leader take time observe make sure it’s safe and only go if you feel it is safe Nevermind people behind you
@@chrisopie5810 Absolutely.
@@chrisopie5810 motorcyclist stops at light, car behind. Light goes green, bike stalled, impacted by car....driver ''the light was green''
At that age that person is never going to be the same again. They were 71, keeping fit and after this accident they'll have a period of bed rest that results in enormous muscle loss (sarcopenia) which is virtually impossible to get back at that age. I'm tired of poor cycling infrastructure & I've given up using my bike for anything but safe, segmented recreational routes
@aurimaspuscius7175 probably best to just keep your thoughts to yourself.
@aurimaspuscius7175Why shouldn't they?
@aurimaspuscius7175 You're forgetting the fact that bikes cause far less damage than cars. There's little reason to restrict riding bikes when they cause 2/1633 (0.12%) of road deaths. Cars on the other hand kill over 95%, so people can't drive those if they're not fit to drive.
While most of the comments here are well balanced and thoughtful, I would suggest that anyone who thinks that a 1 year sentence is harsh needs to give their head a wobble. The driving error was entirely avoidable, the traffic conditions were light, the road design sufficient, there was nothing but the driver's incompetence and impatience that caused that collision. Contrary to the verbal description, the lady was nearly killed - the collision itself was the very definition of life-threatening - and speaking as someone who has broken several bones, the likelihood is that the rider will have permanent mobility problems and a long time to being pain-free from her injuries, if ever.
When you are driving, though you would not believe it based on the general standard of driving of 80% of motorists, you are driving a dangerous piece of machinery. Therefore, at every decision point, a driver should be applying their full concentration. That rules out listening to audiobooks, talking on the phone, getting too wrapped up in what other road users are doing (one of my faults), in depth conversations to passengers (the conversations like on TV where drivers insist on looking at who they are talking to, argh!), making TikTok videos about your driving adventures. Driving stopped being fun, except for some very rare pieces of road, at least 20 years ago. All drivers need to accept it is a skilled task requiring 100% attention. The ideal driver is miserable company!
Looking is especially skilled, because the brain is a con merchant and will make you believe you have seen clearly, but if your eyes are moving quickly, your vision will be switched off though you won't perceive it. This driver may well have pointed his eyes in both direction, but in his hurry, he may well not have been presented with a clear view of anything. You actually have to let your eyes settle, and also you need to realise that peripheral vision has nearly zero detail, all you see out of the corner of your eye is hints of movement, most of the detail you think you see is fabricated by the brain.
So, yes, other people manage to get away with paltry sentences for killing and maiming - that's their problem, not this sentence.
Don't like the idea that it is a mistake you could easily make? What are you going to do about it? There are plenty of advanced driving courses around which deal with exactly this issue. In fact the very first feedback I had was to make the point that rather than driving up to a give way and stopping, the technique was to approach slowly and allow yourself plenty of time to look around - and in fact then you often can safely progress without stopping because you know what you have seen - it ends up being quicker and safer.
A point that motorists, especially outside London, don't seem to grasp, is that as a driver, we generally don't interact with many cyclists. A sort of panic sets in, assumptions are made and frustration is allowed to take over. Cyclists interact with 100x more drivers than drivers do with cyclists (a fellow cyclist has a Garmin radar and they clocked about 500 car interactions on a 25 mile return trip). So drivers with little or no experience of road cycling just do not have the experience to advise cyclists on how to deal with poor driving, because statistically, if say 10% of drivers are very poor, and 1% are maliciously dangerous, on any one day a cyclist like this lady (who may well have been out for a nice 50 mile ride around quiet Warwickshire lanes with her friends) will have had to dealt with 100 poor interactions and 10 dangerous drivers. (Think about that ratio as you drive around - what percentage of cars to you see being obviously careless, or dangerous - it's not a low number is it?) Bear in mind that ratio every time you see a social media post about all the terrible cyclists drivers see all the time. If we accept that the ratio of poor and deranged drivers and cyclists are roughly the same, for every fabled suicidal cyclist a driver has seen, a cyclist has seen many more homicidal drivers.
Remember, for all those who like to bang on about defensive cycling, first and foremost the onus is on drivers to get it right, not for cyclists to spending their time evading other road user's poor driving... ...if they are 71, they've already seen it all. The social acceptability of poor driving is as dangerous today as the social acceptability of drink driving in the 70s.
Absolutely.
Drivers need to realise that they need to slow down and pay attention.
Classic example of drivers who only look for other motor vehicles but not bicycles.
No. Idiots like that do it to other drivers too.
Thanks for this. Been driving for over 20 years but a warning now and then really helps. Let’s all look out for each other.
Salutary reminder that there is no room for sloppiness or complacency on the roads.
Thank you for this video - it stopped me from having a crash this morning. There is a mini roundabout near me where it's impossible to see what's on your right until you've emerged, so I always take it slowly. As I came out I remembered what you said so I slowed right down, more than usual. A car that appeared 'out of nowhere' going at speed, clearly not going to stop as many drivers treat the mini roundabout as just a straight road. Because I was going slowly enough I was able to slam on my brakes and just avoided him. Thank god I had your voice in my brain going "if you can't see take it slowly so you have time to stop" and didn't end up being a sitting duck.
HGV drives on wrong side of road & hits my truck head on, causing serious injuries. Cheshire Police treating it as injury for driving without due care, which is a minor slap on wrist. I was off work 3 months & still having long term problems with knee's & mentally. Police are making laws up as they go, meaning one person gets charged with dangerous, while another committing same act gets minor charge if that.
I'm sorry that you were injured and are still suffering but it's wrong to blame the police if the charges don't meet your idea of the crime (and they don't make up laws either). The police investigate the incident then send a report to the CPS who then have the final say in what charges are to be brought, normally based on the most serious offence that they think they can get a conviction for.
@@stevegoodfellow3423 Unfortunately we let things like, ''but I have a family to support'' get in the way of justice. So sentences become lenient, which leads to discrepancy.
Was it a foreign lorry driver and foreign lorry?
@@smc2069
No. White British driver in 50's
While not defending the police at all, it may be worth thinking about bringing a civil lawsuit against the driver for compensation rather than relying entirely on the criminal justice system in this case.
As a cyclist people who don't cycle themselves miss judge the speed a cyclist is going. For example 20 mph is comfortable, but people pull out like I'm doing 5 mph. I just prepare to stop and expect that everyone is out to kill me. Assumptions are the... 😅
Exactly. Doing 30mph gives you almost NO ability to avoid bad road users. At 20 you can brake and are more likely to be seen.
Not excusing the driver but you make a valid point about judging speed and I'm watching the footage thinking she is on an electric bike, the type with throttle. If this is the case then not only will it be even harder to judge speed but it's good argument to make proper crash helmets a legal requirement on fully electric bikes
If anything, this just proves how great your responsibility is whilst driving. A 'simple' mistake can have life-changing, or -ending consequences. Dangerous driving offences cannot be tolerated.
This is the main reason why I used to be extremely nervous when starting to drive for the first time. All it takes is a split second.
@bazzacuda_ I agree - that’s why I used scare quotes. I wouldn’t call this a mistake - yet many other people have.
It wasn't a "simple mistake" it was criminally bad driving. It was inevitable that driver would eventually hit someone.
@@khaitomretro Yeah that's why I used scare quotes
Lots of surprise about the punishment here but i think sentences like this are important to help drivers underatand their responsibility, and that simply 'sorry mate I didnt see you' isn't an excuse.
Until you don't see someone behind another car and end up in prison for a year.
This video reminds me very much of the one made by Tom Scott regarding the Stop sign crossroads in the New Forest which also had a considerable number of accidents between motor vehicles and cyclists. Ashley did a follow up video on this after the junction was fixed. I've actually traversed that junction on the way to Beaulieu and remembered the two videos.
Maybe this is why America loves stop signs so much
Is that the one with the "moving" blind spot? That was really interesting .
@@Interstellar83516 That's exactly the one.
@@frafraplanner9277Yes they kill many times more people on their roads with their motor vehicles than we do.
One question though, if you slow for the junction are you not giving the impression to the driver you are slowing to let them out?
If I'm on my motorbike or bicycle approaching a junction like this, I've always slowed and been ready to stop as there is a good chance I haven't been seen. I probably get a pull out like this once a month, and have managed to avoid it every time (so far...). As the the saying goes, graveyards are full of people with the right of way... Its obviously the cars fault, but dont rely on others to keep you safe.
I'll slow if the visibility is poor, or it's dark or there are cars but if the junction is clear from vehicles I won't necessarily slow.
That's a lot of people pulling out on you, maybe it is because you see them and slow down?
@@andyedwards7800 I see your point, but I slow early enough that it wouldn't give an indication to them, nor do I slow so much it would do the same. Just enough that I could stop if they do pull out.
On faster roads, it isnt practical to slow all the time, so I check my mirrors and if need be adjust my speed and postion to be the most visible and to give myself options if they do move. Sometimes you can do everything right and you still get taken out.
People just dont look for bikes, whether powered or not.
I live in London, so that might explain the higher likelihood of stupidity from other road users!
"Member of a local cycling club" meaning she regularly rides in groups where motorists can easily see them coming. Looks like she applied the same style and technique to riding solo. Big mistake.
The only priority that ultimately matters is that of self-preservation.
So the recommendations for cyclists is to slow down whenever a car may do something stupid? The problem is that's all the time.
I agree with everything Ashley says with one exception. Ashley states that if he'd been the cyclist, there is no way in the world he'd have been going that fast. Certainly when you look at video the cyclist does look as if they're travelling pretty quickly. However, if you download the video and determine the distance the cyclist travels between frames, then you can determine their speed as about 15mph. The distances covered by the cyclist and the car in the second prior to the collision are approximately the same, which means the car was also travelling at about 15mph. The trajectory of the bike following the collision (not shown in Ashley's video) also suggests the car and bike velocities were similar. The car appears to be travelling far more slowly than the cyclist in the video because the cyclist is moving across the camera, whereas the car is moving almost directly towards it.
I wouldn't therefore consider 15mph to be an excessive speed for a cyclist approaching this junction.
UPDATE: I know agree with shm5547's calaculation that the cyclist's speed was about 25mph. I determined the 15fps frame rate from the clock in the video, which wasn't accurate. The actual frame rate of 25fps is available in the video statistics. I still wouldn't regard 25mph as an excessive speed for a cyclist to approach this junction, as I would expect most vehicle drivers to be travelling at least this fast in the same circumstances.
I don't know ... firstly I'm not making apologies for the motorist, or criticising the cyclist, but 25 mph on a road bike in damp conditions means emergency stops just aren't happening, no matter how good the brakes are - your tyres just won't support it.
Having had one fairly serious experience getting launched over a bonnet in similar circumstances, I have a very pessimistic outlook on other road users now.
Personally I'd be braced for trouble in a situation like that, which might involve scrubbing a bit of speed, but my behaviour these days is a product of my experiences. I hope the cyclist here can make a full recovery. Nobody deserves that, and I'll be happy to make it to that age, let alone be able to still ride with such vigour.
@@rowgli The ability to stop quickly on a damp road will be dependent on the bike tyres. If the bike has narrow slick tyres then I'd agree with you, however if the tyres do have a tread they should grip the road as well as a car or motorbike tyre. I'm 70 this month and although I cruise on the flat at less than 20mph, I can certainly reach 30-40mph going downhill. I don't know this road, but I don't think I'd be anxious going through that junction at 25mph.
I agree that experience is valuable. I've had two collisions with cars in 50+ years. My speed wasn't a factor in either incident though. In fact in the second I was stationary! Almost all accidents are due to one or both parties not seeing the other. In both my accidents the driver admitted they hadn't seen me. Experience gives you a sort of 6th sense of where you may not be seen, but I'm not sure it would have kicked in here, as it's likely the cyclist didn't see the car either, until it was too late.
@@southwirralcyclist1986 This is a slight misconception about treaded vs slick tyres. Slick tyres on a car are dangerous because of aquaplaning. However a bicycle tyre has a much smaller contact patch with a more rounded shape, and therefore a bike would have to be riding around 70mph to start aquaplaning. A treaded tyre therefore does not offer any additional grip in the wet, in fact it offers slightly less due to the gaps between the rubber in contact with the road. Treaded tyres are beneficial for grip on mud or loose gravel, so they are more suitable for mountain or gravel bike riding.
@@nbartlett6538 Thanks for the info. I've never used slick tyres on a bike, although I tend to wear treaded ones down to the canvas! It's good to know it makes little difference to road grip.
This man is ridiculous blame the victim who had the right of way. It was down to the driver who rightly got punished
Don't think he deserves jail honestly. The cyclist was in the perfect blind spot there. PSA to any cyclist that should be taught from a young age. Until you see the car see you, assume they don't see you.
Drivers barrel through that junction as fast or faster than the lady cycle rider did.
As much as the driver was unsighted by the Grey Civic, so was the lady on the bike.
She was way past the point of no return when the driver crossed through the junction. She would have had to brake at least 5 seconds ahead of the junction to avoid the collision. I doubt any one else travelling in the same direction as the lady by any form of vehicle would have slowed sufficiently to avoid the collision even if they were covering the brakes in anticipation.
It's not impossible she considered braking but thought the car behind would not pull out so quick as it did, so let off the brakes to clear the situation. Just an idea I have. Of course ideally she should have slowed down way in advance.
The driver didn't even seem to slow down for the junction and proceeded at the same speed as they approached.
As a pedestrian I exercise my priority when crossing at junctions and even in 20 zones drivers act like I'm in the wrong. Even when they were nowhere near the junction. The attitude is "I'm in a car, get out of my way". I always think what if it's a kid next time and they fail to see them as they enter a junction at speed on the wrong side of the road 🤔
The cyclist did absolutely nothing wrong, she was wearing a high viz jacket and white helmet, she done everything to be more visible on the road. She was riding in a normal position and under the speed limit despite the decent. Driving standards need to be tightened and more in-depth training, because everyone has witnessed an increase of bad drivers on the road nowadays.
@@cyclingSausage why should there be in this case? the cyclist was going well below the speed limit.
@@cyclingSausageShe was doing 20, ever so slightly slower than the blue car moving in the same direction, which nobody has criticised the speed of
@bazzacuda_Good luck getting calibrated speedometers installed on every bicycle, even £179.00 bikes from Halfords and Decathlon. The speedometer will need to be mechanical as bicycles don't come with alternators and batteries, and cannot be rechargeable as there might not be the opportunity to recharge it.
It's not about being under the speed limit it's about being able to react. The car drivers fault 100 % but some cyclists need to loose the entitled attitude and be more willing to compromise. At the end of the day metal will always win over flesh.
@@Maxdukemax Your language is appalling, it's the language of victim-blaming.
The comments made in the video about the cyclist are absolutely wrong. The cyclist just has to obey the speed limit and expect motorists to obey the law, she shouldn't have to slow down in this situation, she had right of way. She was very visible and completely in the right.
From the moment the cyclist appears in the frame up until the car hits her, her legs aren't moving as she was free-wheeling down the slight descent so wasn't going any faster than what she could have done. No idea as to when she saw the car and applied the brakes though. Also, you say that the car driver couldn't see beyond the grey car to see her, but that is also true of the cyclist not being aware that the car is not going to stop - and even if she did I doubt she would have been able to stop in the time she had. Ok so may be she could have slowed a little on approaching the junction but as a cyclist I feel that this would cause more of an issue with drivers thinking 'I've got time to get across'...and how does that then impact on the speed of the cyclist and any traffic behind them? No doubt adding further issues of impatient drivers. I don't see that as being dangerous to me, even though we are classed as vulnerable road users (and I go everywhere by bike) there are times when you have to be assertive in your manner of cycling, speed and road positioning.
Exactly. Whatever this cyclist did, someone would apportion an amount of blame on her if she got hit - something that doesn't happen when it's car vs car if it's as obvious as this.
Listen to Ash. He said she should have been aware there could have been a hidden car. It was a tricky one I agree where everything aligned against the poor lady. I felt she had time to brake of swerve a little but did nothing. It would have taken a lot of skill and she still would likely have hit the car just at slower speed. Possible she never even saw the hidden car. Why we should brake if not sure. I try and look behind me when approaching a junction and get in the middle of the road. This makes it more likely I will be seen as cars look in the middle for other cars, not to the side for cycles. It also gives me more room to move to either side if I have to.
@@glenn1534 exactly right. How many people driving a car would slow down approaching this junction? None I would venture.
@@WansbeckBikecam yep, it seems if a cyclist is involved in a traffic incident, they MUST be partially to blame. This cyclist was wearing hi-viz and a helmet, she was driving to her priority and there was no indication that the driver was going to pull out on her.
If she was driving a car instead of riding a bike and the exact same thing happened, nobody would question her responsibility in this incident.
The analysis of this video seems to be a clear message to cyclists - 'know your place'.
The only good thing to take from this is that the driver got a reasonable sentence.
@@glenn1534 agreed. I get the defensive riding take on this. Easy to see in hindsight but in reality she was on a main road freewheeling downhill probably at about 20 to 25 mph. Probably what any cyclist would be doing in the same place. Probably couldn't see the car emerging until it was too late to do anything about it. Very unpleasant experience for her and I'm actually amazed she wasn't more seriously injured or even killed. I'm pretty sure she will be feeling the effects for a long time.
This video brought tears to my eyes.
I was the cyclist in a broadly similar event 30 years ago on an urban dual carriageway (roughly rush hour). Saw a car in the central reservation turning right across my path. It passed in front of me no problem but the driver of the car behind it in the queue to turn right followed across the carriageway and hit me.
I landed in the opposite gutter as in the video.
I saw the event unfold 'in slow motion' but did not have the skills/reactions (I was 19 at the time) to do anything other than make sure I hit the top of the bonnet rather than under the bumper. I felt (maybe right maybe not) that the driver made an understandable mistake in concentrating on whether there was a gap in the traffic on the carriageway. There had been a gap in front of me and I knew there was a gap behind me, so I was only disappointed (not shocked or surprised) that he pulled across my path.
I'd hope my skills today would have caused me to slow to avoid the collision but my youthful joy in my fitness and my naiivety at the time took me straight into danger.
The driver stopped & took me to hospital where I was diagnosed with a fractured skull. Took a while to recover..
The police wanted to charge the driver for careless driving but I did not agree to this out of a feeling that the driver made an honest mistake which could have been done by anyone (including me; I was/am a driver) and I felt that the driver was sufficiently shocked by the event that legal punishment wouldn't have helped much. Again; maybe right maybe wrong, but that's how I felt.
I still have my bent bike frame hanging on the garage wall to this day as a reminder to take care & observe.
And I'm still not perfect.
A typical reason for this is so called selective vision. We see what we look for, while we see «through» what we don’t look for.
Typically we look out for danger, like other cars. But since pedestrians and bicyclists are not dangerous to us, our brains don’t process their precense.
But this a matter of training our brains to change this «attitude» or rather lack of attitude.
In Norway, where I live, drivers are very good at stopping for pedestrians who want to cross a zebra crossing. The pedestrians are very much on their radars, not like a blip, but as a important object to handle.
Your case may have been this «blip», just as the cyclist in the video.
What you described is careless, it might not have been reckless or dangerous (by intent).
Thank you for this. I have been battling other cyclists thinking that if I have the right away, I can travel as fast as I can. It seems that defensive driving goes out of one’s head at times. From an old movie “your fault, my fault, no one’s fault, you’re still dead.
I agree with everything said. I also remember the "think bike" campaign, very relevant here. It's something I always do at junctions, but then I am a cyclist first, and a motorist very much second.
Prison seems excessively harsh. My most recent close call with a car pulling out that I was able to avoid was a woman driver with kids in the car leaving a community centre who 'didnt see me'. If I had been injured I wouldnt expect her to be jailed. I could stand on a street in town and in 10 minutes see many examples of downright dangerous driving I'd like to see prosecuted. This was careless mistake that all drivers have done if we are honest.
I agree with you but I wonder whether he may have had previous incidents that meant that the sentence given was tougher than it might have been?
1 year harsh!.. NO. But if it is there's an easy way to avoid it, for instance, stopping at a give way.
A man diving down the road past several junctions, eventually approaches another junction where another driver exited without stopping, his car was knocked down the road the other driver was headed, the other driver came to a stop in the road they didn't give way to.
The other driver who failed to stop just hurled abuse towards the victim. Hope the dashcam got her rightly punished.
As a motorcyclist, I know its somewhat different, but I have been riding and driving for over 40 years, and in all that time I have had one accident on my bike, totally my fault!! I ride with the notion that no one sees me and I will ride defensively, meaning that I not only have to think for myself, but other road users also. I have been a professional driver for many, and an HGV advanced driver, and in this particular case, IMHO the cyclist was not at fault in any way. The driver of the car had an outright duty to ensure that the road ahead was clear before moving off, and if your sight line is obscured, wait until you are completely sure. We are now all in a real hurry to get from point A to point B and sometimes that pressure causes people to do stupid and dangerous things, but as we can see, the results can be catastrophic. Sentencing is a joke, not that I think this case was harsh, but there does need to be a review to ensure that the deterrent is enough to reduce such incidents.
And note the silver vehicle just carries on driving past despite the cyclist lying by the side of the road. The least he could have done is stop alongside so no other vehicle could run him over.
The driver would have seen the cyclist do a complete somersault and land in the road just ahead of them too. The driver would also have been a witness to what happened, which would have been invaluable had the CCTV camera not been there. I'm afraid many road users just don't want the hassle of getting involved.
Dont blame the cyclist. The driver just like most learn false patterns which eventually one day go wrong. I cant stand drivers going dull to reality. Alway, always look out for what you cant see.
Has anyone blamed the cyclist? I haven't seen anyone do that.
Yes 3:33 in Ashley blamed the cyclist in a sort of way.
@@abt833 I do think that is a stretch to describe that as blame, to be honest. I see it as 'let's reflect to see if anything could have been done to have achieved a better outcome'. Ashley does say that it is totally the car driver's fault.
@@TheBadVideoMaker I like Ashley's work and he treats cyclists well. But the wording in this video is a lot more harsh against the cyclist than Ashley usually is.
The driver is clearly in the wrong here, as people have said already there's a big difference between "I can't see anything" and "I can see there is nothing". I do wonder though, if the positions were reversed and a cyclist emerged on this road while a car sped through the junction without considering emerging traffic, would the cyclist be put 100% at fault or would the driver be criticised for not considering the possibility of traffic emerging and slowing down? I know I'd have been marked down on my motorcycle test if I went through a crossroads at 30mph without slowing or being prepared to stop.
The cycling Community would probably say, that you should expect people to be emerging at crossroads, and plan accordingly.
Cyclists have priority over cars, don't you know. /s
(only in certain situations, and against give-way lines, isn't one)
I had an almost identical scare on Sunday someone pulled out turning right from a side junction across me then stoped way across the centre line of the road I was cycling down, its 20mph limit as well being Wales. I continued as they stoped just to be close passed and then they had to stop in 20yrds for a roundabout. My 25 mile ride only had this short 200yrds section on the road the rest was cycleway and I had daylight running lights and bright gloves and jacket and they still can't see. The guy in your clip if you drive you have a great responsibility and a lot of drivers don't get this.
On a daily basis, you see lackadaisical road use. Thankfully, most of the time, it ends up not being an issue aside from mild annoyance at the offending party/parties.
However, when it does become an issue, it often ends up as a horrible incident like this.
Everyone needs to stop riding their luck on the road. The next lazy action they take could end up being someone’s last.
This video is going to cause a stir on certain sections of Twitter who will interpret this as victim blaming because they are completely incapable of seeing anything other than in a fault based mindset as opposed to an avoidance mindset. The most important consideration for them is who is at fault and everything then flows from that reasoning. To you and most sensible folk who aren't delivering punishments, it's less who is at fault but rather how can it be avoided in the first place and are there any steps one can take, even if that person is not at fault, to avoid it. This avoidance based mindset is the entire foundation of how defensive riding/driving works which is obviously alien to them. Sensible video that will be poorly received.
Well said 👏👏👏
This should be pinned to the top so everyone can see it immediately as this sums up everything that is wrong with attitudes today but at the same time how it can be fixed with little effort from everyone
i am sure you are slowing down to a low speed on every intersection when you are driving your car on a road with the right of way. Then you accellerate up again after passing it and then repeat this every 100 meters, as the good defensive driver you are. Probably the cars behind you will show their annoyance. But why should you care?
But when you are riding a bicycle, this way will give you good (hard) excersise.
So perhaps you don’t want to slow down like this, because it takes some juice out of your legs. If you are 71 years old, even more.
Sure you want to be defensive in your way of driving/riding. But you are not a machine, you are a human who can zone out from time to time. Especially in the end of a long training ride.
Pointing fingers is easy. Living up to the standard all the time can be hard.
And that is what annoys me more and more about this channel.
Sure, everybody should act perfectly all the time. But that is not what is real life.
Working out how an accident might have been avoided is addressing a problem that no longer exists.
Finding fault is addressing the problem that does exist.
We can all play Captain Hindsight.
@@jeremyashford2145 it's hardly only a skill that can only be used in hindsight. It's like not driving alongside someone on a roundabout as they often will drift lanes, or avoiding going down the inside of a lorry as a cyclist in case they don't see you. Were they to turn into accidents neither would be your fault, but were you anticipating them in advance you'd avoid the incident altogether. This is the point.
@@th5841 the whole point you've clearly missed because you reference "pointing fingers" is that no one is doing that. Again you just can't see it and you demonstrate exactly what I say is the issue.
Yet again you fall into biased, car-centric victim blaming.
The cyclist was doing 19mph, on a perfectly straight, perfectly clear section of oad, wide and with good sight lines.
You say you wouldn't be going that fast, yet 20 mph is the MINIMUM usually set speed limit for motor vehicles on UK roads, and very few of those and only in built up areas, the road in the video is probably at least 40mph, possibly 60, so the cyclist is doing half of the speed limit at most.
The cyclist could not, and should not need to, do anything else, this was 100% the driver's fault. If their view is obscured for any reason, they must take more care before and while manoeuvring.
If the moving car in front of them obscures enough of the road for a human sized object to not be visible, then they must wait for their view of the road to be clear. They must not expect other road users to anticipate their incompetence and take avoiding action. The fact that people do that sometimes does not set a precedent!
Please, please stop with the victim blaming!
As a thought process, in a car you are expected to be able to stop in the distance you can see. If a kid runs in front of you, you are expected to be able to stop. How does that rule work on a bicycle? If i am on a bicycle and have a stopping distance twice that of a car (or more), am i still ok to ride at the speed limit? Or should i be riding more slowly to account for my lower braking capability?
I am reluctant to victim-blame, and i am not doing so here because the car driver clearly is at fault, but is it not a reasonable expectation also that the cyclist should have been riding at a speed where she could have exercised some control over the event?
@@15bit62 Why do you say the stopping distance for a bike is twice that of a car? Is that a guess? If so, it's a poor one. As a general rule a cyclist can stop in half the distance of a driver, this has shifted a bit over the years as car brakes have improved, and they have got bigger and heavier, bike brakes have improved, and discs brakes are becoming more common.
But there are other factors, probably more pertinent; a cyclist is much more manoeuvrable, able to quickly avoid an obstacle (go to Amsterdam to watch Dutch cyclists easily avoid most UK and US sightseers that wander into the cycle lanes 😂)
Cyclists are generally more observant and assess risk much faster than drivers who do not cycle, that's why cyclists make better drivers than those who don't cycle, we tend to be able to share the road more equitably, better anticipate risk, and to take fewer risks, as demonstrated by the incompetent driver in the video.
The driver did not 'make a mistake', they were incompetent, it's that simple.
@@CraggRock Experience with cars, motorbikes and bicycles. I know modern bike disc brakes are amazing, but i don't for a moment believe in reality that a bicycle can stop anywhere near as fast as a car. I never could on a motorbike, and i've yet to see a test with professional drivers where it happened.
The grip is in principle there, but the high centre of gravity and the shift forward of the rider's weight under a real emergency situation make it unobtainable. Plus ABS - a car driver just has to stamp on the pedal and steer. A bike/bicycle rider has to apply the brakes with some care and balance, controlling the fact that the bike is on only one wheel (if they have hit the brakes to maximum effect).
I gave this a like for the "look and look again" advice. The incident illustrates why it's so important.
Yeah but let's blame the victim
That description... 🙈 You see many people making that mistake ??? And worry about the driver. Shocking.
He doesn’t stop at the junction so doesn’t have time to assess the situation totally his fault don’t victim blame
The lady was following the Highway Code the driver didn’t
That isn't the question. The question is how to stop vulnerable road users being hit and injured. I don't think it's any comfort to the injured cyclist to know that they were legally blameless.
Maybe to stop all traffic incidents we reduce the speed limit on all roads until there are none. If he follows the rules no accident the lady did nothing wrong. She rode in this manner straight and not doing anything wrong don’t blame the victim.
@Leidolfrthat’s the same thing isn’t it? Saying she could have done things better is the same as saying she did things wrong (I.e. not 100% correct)!
@Leidolfr no it doesn’t make sense. You’ve done something wrong - you cooked it for too long. You’re talking absolute nonsense, stop trying to justify it as you’re tying yourself in knots doing so.
I ride a motorbike, I always slow down at these junctions simply because I assume everyone on the road hasn't seen me.
To less than 25mph?
@@lebowskii98_9 depends on roads conditions etc man but yes if necessary.
@@tombombadil66 you're one of a kind. 👍
Always, utter bullcrap!
@@ynotnilknarf39 what a well constructed intelligent comment well done you.🤣 Amazing how you can spot a BMW or Audi driver even by their you tube comments., what a dolt.🤣🤣🤣🥴
Ashley using your diagnosis of the accident its possible the cyclist never saw the red car either, so felt no need to slow down. It doesn't make to right suggest that the cyclists was anyway to blame for what happened to her though. That is a very surprising sentence tbh. Ive seen cyclists killed for similar and motorists get off virtually scot free.
>never saw the red car either, so felt no need to slow down.
But that's the mistake. Unless you can see that there is no conflicting traffic, you should be slowing down. And with that kind of junction, you should be slowing down anyway.
@@ryanmitcham5522 No, that is NOT the mistake, the women did ZERO wrong, Neal does not apply this when driving or riding his bike in any case.
Focusing on what the vulnerable could/should do means less focus on those doing the harm. this ends up with more harm for the vulnerable, hence since helmet wearing has been pushed, we've seen a 50% increase in cyclist serious injuries in the UK whilst all other road users have seen a drop since the mid 00s - when helmets began to be pushed in racing and for general riding.
repeat that in countries that mandated helmet wearing for ordinary riding and all sports that mandated them.
4:50 anyone else notice the blue car driving past the scene of the collision, going at the same speed as the cyclist?
@ 4:42 the video has been slowed down.
about ½ speed? check @ 1:10.
Someone worked out the speed of the cyclist on Facebook at 19.2 mph . Im not good at working stuff out like this, so i can only take there word for it
I'd say it's over 19.2 mph (I used to average that speed at one time), but I do estimate it to be under 25mph based on the decline of the hill.
So that’s ok then isn’t it, 19.2 mph? If it was a car doing that speed you’d say they were going a reasonable/careful speed and it was entirely the red cars fault, so why is any blame being imparted on the cyclist here?
@neilmartin3013 can't see where I've put the blame on the cyclist
@@darrenthomas9928 didn’t say it was you that had
@@neilmartin3013 >so why is any blame being imparted on the cyclist here?
Because a cyclist is not a car. You have to be aware that as a small cyclist you are less visible than a large car, therefore safe approach speeds are not the same.
A-pillar blind spot as well as masking by the grey car?
Problem comes with nothing happening 99.99% of the time so most road users can become complacent in everyday road use - it’s a miracle that the statistics aren’t far worse. Unfortunately for both parties it was one of those moments - fortunately the cyclist was okay but as a cyclist and driver I think the sentence was harsh in contrast to other examples where there have been fatalities or near misses - spending a year in jail is not going to help society imo
I agree!
"'Spending a year in jail is not going to help society ''.... So should we empty and shut down all prisons then!
@@mikewade777 no, because then the murderers, rapists, paedos etc would be running free committing their respective crimes again and again (in some cases) - put yourself in the position of the driver, as a driver, which presumably you are and ask yourself *if* you made this mistake, horrifying as it was, would you put your hand up to be locked up for a year?
Considering also that worse accidents and fatalities happen every day yet sentencing is more lenient when they hit the news? The US woman who killed the motorcyclist by driving the wrong way springs to mind plus all the hit and runs where the police didn’t pursue them - it seems this case was an easy target to throw the book at imo…
@bazzacuda_ this is exactly the problem when stories are reported in this manner i.e. "driver gets jail for hitting cyclist" - at face value, purely based on the footage, the driver didn't look like he was playing GTA and running over grannies on bikes on purpose - he paused and pulled out rather than blast through the junction. Similarly he stopped rather than "hit and run" and thus on the assumption he didn't have a string of previous careless/dangerous driving convictions, nor was there permanent damage as it were i.e. no fatality or life changing injuries, my point is that this could happen to "(m)any" drivers - it probably does in car on car scenarios at junctions just like this - BUT it seems like someone is trying to make an example with the sentence, whilst not a bad thing (I also cycle and have idiots close pass me or drive straight at me *intentionally*) I have sympathy for the driver here, when as I stated above, other intentional crimes have lesser consequences...
Agree it does fall below the standard but as Ashley also points out, it was a mistake that even he thinks happens a lot. So I rewatched the clip again a couple of times - it was careless (not classed as dangerous as I wrongly assumed) but my conclusion remains the same - it was not intentional just like many accidents on the roads and by comparison to other reports of worse instances and fatalities (aside from any assumptions about background) a year in jail plus the criminal record is overly harsh imo - again put yourself in the driver’s position and *if* you made a similar mistake would you feel differently to a year in jail with the paedos, drug dealers, rapists etc? That’s not to say he doesn’t deserve a punishment but I still don’t understand what a year in jail will do for him or society when he is already banned and also had the criminal conviction - I would personally think that society has failed me at that point and call it a day 😢
Blaming the cyclist here is not far short of suggesting she wouldnt have been knocked off if she'd have stayed in bed.
100% 👌
Damn right. If only there were rules to follow in uk...
It's obvious that the car was mainly at fault but I can guarantee this wouldn't have happened if I was the cyclist. I would not have been approaching that junction at such speed, especially with all those cars around. I also suspect I would have seen the car pulling out earlier and could have avoided it by going behind. The lessons you promote Ashley should be the lessons the government should promote; Everyone is responsible for everyone's safety and we all need to look out for each other. But we also need to take personal responsibility and reduce the risk to ourselves where possible.
Halleluja!, One of the more sensible comments, from someone that realises that safety is everyone's responsibility - and that the person that is mainly responsible for safety, is that person themselves.
My take away is not to make progress at a junction where the view is limited. Instead of an emerge, just stop and wait until it is really clear. That’s something I’m going to add because I’m not certain I would have seen that cyclist under the circumstances. If I’d been on the bike I’d have slowed down at the junction, there were cars there anyway, so the danger was apparent, but I’d do that anyway because of the chance of a driver shooting across at high speeds - I’ve seen that happen in a town centre.
On looking at video, the car did not even stop fully. He slowed, had in my opinion a micro look, & carried on. Very careless driving. Had he stopped to look, the collision probably would not have happened. Every day, motorists just pull out & many don't look.
Still trying to dig at the cyclist, she did nothing wrong at all the idiot driver should of stopped give himself a few seconds then he would of seen cyclist
The driver was just in a hurry to get across what can be a busy road, and did the minimal observations possible. He had already decided to go when the grey car started moving.
As a cyclist though you can never afford to be head down, whenever I am approaching junctions I have my fingers covering the brake lever and am thinking of escape routes should one of the cars at the junction start moving.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about how it's the police and insurance companies who have to take a blame based look at situations like this. That doesn't mean on a human level the rest of us have to see it that way, and shouldn't strive to avoid situations like this from occurring by trying to all share the road as best as we can.
The police and CPS got it right, the driver failed to stop at the give way line when it was not safe to proceed, they commited the offence of careless driving.
?!! Who are you saying should be to blame here?
As much as I have total sympathy for the cyclist and of course, it was the motorists fault but I'm genuinely surprised at the sentence imposed, including jail time. I could perhaps understand if it was drunk driving or a stolen car but this was a surprise. Basically, any one of us could end up being arrested and serve jail time for a fairly basic mistake, even though we may otherwise be good drivers. Again, total sympathy to the cyclist but I do find this worrying.
Yes, I feel like this should fall into a category of careless driving rather than dangerous driving. I've seen people driving deliberately badly and injuring people getting a lesser sentence.
learn to drive propaly then you will not get sentenced
actions have consequences. if you operate lethal machinery then there is no room for mistakes. more people need to realise this instead of pretending car crashes and deaths are inevitable.
Definitely dangerous driving the lack of observation is unforgivable. As for the sentence it’s a miracle that the victim wasn’t killed and the perpetrator shouldn’t get a lesser sentence just because of a miracle. It shows a weakness in driver licensing and training they need awareness training of how vulnerable other users are….. compulsory experience cycling or horse riding on the public highway would open their eyes to the impact of their poor behaviour.
@@TPH250290would you feel that way if it was you or a relative on the bike whom this happened to? Should have been banned for longer and retested before he gets his licence back.
A sensible analysis, I think. I doubt I would have driven through that crossroads at that speed, let alone cycled. I know momentum is a thing, but eejits in metal boxes are a bigger thing. Don't trust them.
What at 19mph?
A few years ago I was hit by a car speeding through a red light, i fractured my spine in three places plus a lot of smaller injuries. The first thing Jessica McManus (the driver) said while I was still on the floor was i just need to ring my boss to say I'll be late. This is before ringing for an ambulance. When the police showed up there main priority was clearing the busy road. Not only that, the driver tried to sue me for damage to the car. A year later i saw her racing along the same road.
I gave up cycling many years ago because of similar incidents - the only difference being that I was able to stop or avoid being yet another statistic due to my observations and/or travelling at a lower speed.
The car driver should've stopped at the Give Way markings as this might've enabled enough time to correctly assess the situation.
FWIW - Thanks for redacting some of that footage.
Some drivers are bad and do not think of blind spots caused by other cars etc.
@@andrewnorris5415
💯 mate.
Unfortunately, many of them live in my area 😮.
Thx for the reply.
There's interesting research from fighter jet pilots that shows why SMIDSYs (Sorry Mate I Didn't See You) crashes happen. You can actually genuinely have looked, but for various reasons the brain does not extract the key details from the images. Given this and the huge proportion of accidents that happen at junctions, I do the following.
1. Look in BOTH directions at least TWICE (the second scan adds further information, and allows for vehicle / pedestrain movements)
2. Another concept from aviation I apply is the concept of a sterile flight deck. This means that at key moments (eg take-off / landing) conversation between crew is kept to an absolute necessary minimum. On the road I apply this as at difficult junctions, exiting motorways, driving in unfamiliar town centre layouts I will mute music / radio and if I have passengers ask them just to pause conversations.
I know this will be inconvenient and OTT to most people, but my attitude on the road is that my key responsibility is to make sure that others, along with myself are safe.
Yep, 100%, it's a shame more folk aren't told about saccadic masking. I find it intriguing that our eyes see everything but our brains decide what we actually 'see' also make things up too, by prediction.
A useful tip to prevent Saccadic masking at junctions is to focus on something near & far by sweeping your gaze up & down too, whilst turning your head slower then normal, not snapping your head left/right quickly. It takes a while to learn, but I've found it very useful.
From looking at the video, it's a downhill section and the temptation to pick up speed and momentum is there. But as the cyclist is more vulnerable, they should cycle defensively and expect not to be seen. As Ashley said, it looks like the grey car blocked the view and the cyclist couldn't be seen briefly. The driver of the red car maybe knew the road and perhaps they were a bit complacent. I think the accident would've happened even if the cyclist was cycling more slowly, but it would've been less severe. I cycle too and the temptation when cycling quickly downhill is there, but I'm always aware of my vulnerability against metal boxes. I've seen worse examples of driving, but it's a painful lesson for everyone involved.
Going downhill needs care and I use the brakes to keep the speed down. Hit a pothole or an animal running across the road is risky too. I reign my speed in at junctions and try and be prepared.
If you work the cyclist's speed out by considering the distance covered between frames it's only about 15mph.
Ive only been driving a little under a year, but the number of times that something unseen has emerged after i took an extra second to look again is staggering. Where i live there are tons of cyclist, mopeds, kids on scooters, and unfortunately, just bad drivers and tailgaters. Loads of the junctions are narrow and difficult to see around due to cars parked right up to the junction. Just take a couple of extra seconds to be sure, and remember to creep. It really doesn't slow your journey down as much as people think it does.
Great breakdown of the video. I didn't think about the cyclist being obscured by the other car when I first seen the video.
I wonder, did the driver even look to his left? He had a passenger. Did he rely on their observation? My wife, also a qualified driver, tries to assist in this way when she is a passenger. I always double check, not relying on her continuing to look, and confirm for myself that it's clear to proceed.
When crossing a road on foot or in a car (as in this example) you should be looking left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right until you are across the road.
If you fail to see a car or a cyclist the first time, with my method you will see it the 2nd time or the 3rd time. That should be good enough to avoid a collision.
I have seen countless examples of pedestrians and motorists who look once then cross with head locked in the forward position.
I must say Ashley learned me to think more in terms of "have I been seen" -- when approaching a junction like at 4:00 in the video, I'd definitely slow down because of the blocked view to the left.
"Learned me"?
@@jfluffydog2110 Taught me (am not an English native speaker)
That hi viz vest didn't help him!
I can't see the custodial sentence being much use when the effort isn't being put in to educating drivers. His misfortune was he failed to see a cyclist, there will be thousands of very similar collisions, just involving cars, every year that the police pay no attention to.
The usual victim blaming shite on here backed up with added "the sentence seems harsh". Well done Ashley, more dangerous roads for the vulnerable....
Anyone driving would be doing 25mph+ at this junction and just trust cars to give way to them not the 17mph the cyclist was doing
The problem is idiot motorists are not actually looking at what is there, all their feeble mind is telling them is a motor vehicle isn't there, because that is all they are looking for. I ride my bike with a headlamp on at all times, bright to fluorescent clothing, and a light on top of my helmet in the dark. I have had way too many close calls with motorists, any that I was able to converse with, all said 'I didn't see you' Seems to me they are not competent and shouldn't be driving if that's the case. Still waiting for the first apology also.
What I don't understand is that drivers haven't gotten away with far worse, either because they know the right people or because they can't be traced (cloned plates, rental car, owner refuses to say who was driving, etc etc etc) or after the driver called his cousins brothers uncles private hire taxi firm and got a lift away from the area.
“Do you think the cyclist could have done anything better? Absolutely”
Absolute nonsense. Absolute ****ing nonsense.
She was going at less than 20 mph. That’s not too fast for the conditions at ALL. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if a car was going at that speed and the same thing had happened.
Or are you telling us you slow down to
This judgement on how the cyclist could have reduced risk is, I feel, fair, but it’s important to note that it doesn’t get rid of the risk entirely due to blame with the driver. I had a similar issue recently, except I slowed down significantly upon approaching the junction, and the car didn’t look and pulled out on me anyway, knocking me off my bike. I’m thankfully okay, but it goes to show there is still a lot of responsibility with drivers. This happened while I was using a segregated cycle lane as well!
To be completely honest I think I would ride my bike just as fast on that downhill in nice dry conditions with good visibility like this. However seeing the way the red car is approaching the intersection even before the grey car croses the give way line somehow screemed to me "this one is not stopping" even before you started explaining. I was very surprised there was no visible effort to stop by the cyclist. I would have been braking hard before I even entered the field of view of the camera that filmed this. And my bike stops about 30% faster than what is physically possible for an upright like this cyclist was riding. That should be enough to pass behind the rear of the red car rather than hit its front left corner. But it would have been close, very close. Probably avoiding a crash but definitely not something that could be declared "safe". I really hate to admit this but Ashley is right and what my normal speed is in situations like this is not as safe as it should be even if I assume zero mistakes in my observation. Something to keep in mind.
Honestly, I'd ride at a similar speed downhill too, but if I saw a hazard like a pedestrian about to cross (in my state, Oregon, they have priority at all intersections), a car masked behind another car that couldn't see me, or something similar, then I'd slow down
have you considered she didn't see the car in the same way Neal states the car driver didn't see the rider?
There should never be any onus on the vulnerable here to do anything different, moving focus onto the vulnerable away from those that harm means more harm occurs!
@@ynotnilknarf39 I have considered it but the situation is not symmetrical. She can be hidden from the red car driver by even a portion of the grey car especially given how glued to it he drove. However if there ever was a moment the grey car completely masked the entire red car for her it was a very short moment. I think the interval for which she couldn't see the red driver was quite long but a good portion of his car was visible most of the time or possibly all of the time. And a car coming my way whose driver I cannot see is another thing that screams "start braking" to me. I have been in very very similar situations before. And after I started using my current system of lights over 15 years ago the situation where I cannot see the head of the driver is the only one with high risk I am not being noticed in time. So maybe that's why I am so used to watching out for it.
Again not her fault she got hit but I think the opportunity to fix the red driver's mistake or at least lessen its consequences was there even after the decision to ride the downhill at that speed. But my judgement on it might be wrong because it has been over 20 years since I have ridden an upright bike at that speed. So my mental model of the braking distance and how controllable such bike is during emergency braking is quite rusty. I'm much more used to the longer wheelbase and lower center of mass and higher moment of inertia around the vertical axis that my current bike has. Maybe she couldn't do much once she had that speed and being slower in the first place would have been her only chance.
Ashely your analysis here is garbage. A) the driver was charged with causing serious injury through careless driving and was given the starting point sentence for the offence. B)The cyclist WAS seriously injured. You entirely omitted that she had a bleed on the brain. C) she was visibly traveling at 19mph - she has likely slowed considerably coming down the hill where the coasting speed is 30mph. D) your comment that you would not pass through a junction without being sure the driver has seen you is clearly nonsense, many drivers look but do not see and in many scenarios it is impossible to tell if a driver has seen you, at night for instance. E)under the TRL study that you have previously cited regarding stopping distance. Even travelling at 7mph she would have likely still collided with the vehicle (hitting it this time as opposed to being hit by the driver. I assume your bias here has led you to vastly overestimate her speed or possibly underestimate the speed that you pass junctions in your car (or bike). This really was all down to the driver.
@@ggnombe3832Ironically, I feel that if this took place at night. The flashing strobe lights (assuming the cyclist has them) might have been more likely to be seen through the grey car's windows or over the car, assuming they had helmet lights.
Compared to this rainy day weather with no lights.
Yeah I agree that it's hard to see if a driver has seen you at night. But as someone who commuted out and about, if you look directly at driver's face in their cars (during the day), you can tell quite easily most of the time when they haven't seen you, because you won't see their face.
Honestly I don't know if I would have done anything differently if I were the cyclist here, other than maybe also slow down, or even go upright on my bike to see over the grey car to ensure the car on the junction has seen me. But that's all hindsight.
I'd just like to point out it was "causing serious injury by careless driving" I think the report you are using might be incorrect.
One thing that I think many people are not aware of is how easy it is to miss cyclist.
When we scan at an intersection we move our eyes quickly from left to right.
If our brain kept the data of those fast movements our vision would be blurry. So our brain prefers to see pictures. The stuff between those frames/pictures our brain makes up.
And this is the point where a cyclist can get lost.
One way to avoid that is to slow down the scan. Give your brain the time to take everything in.
It's better to take one second longer than to turn that second into a year.
And to the cyclist. Intersections are a danger zone. Act accordingly.
Not to mention I have read that there is some evidence that when making observations in a busy urban environment, because of the sheer amount of things happening, your brain will filter out things that aren't going to threaten you such as cyclists and motorcyclists.
Which means that a cyclist could actually be observed plainly but be discarded.
That being said I've done the exact same thing before on my bike and completely missed a car, so maybe that theory has been overstated!
Yes, most drivers are semi sentient incompetents and have no business using sharp implements, let alone controlling a motor vehicle.
Drivers in Japan FEAR hitting cyclists and they know it! One night my brother commented to his now wife when cars screech safely to a halt as a cyclist in black and without lights cut across their path to get into a side road. In an accident the driver(s) would be arrested, possibly by her father who was a Japanese police officer.
My brother thinks Japanese drivers train themselves to notice cyclist.
P.S. He used bike and train while in Japan.
P.P.S. Bikes parked in the wrong place are removed quickly.
There must have been additional circumstances to the sentencing.
Ie some history because as a first offence that seems massively ridiculous tbh
(And I have huge sympathy for the cyclist and the motorist 99% at fault)
You've victim blamed the cyclist. Also, the driver didn't not make a mistake, he was negligent and dangerous.
I wonder if the speed of the cyclist can be calculated from the video footage? or are there too few frames? I also noticed from google street view that there was a digital 'Your Speed' sign close to the junction on the main road.
Yes, 15mph
There are 16 frames with the cyclist shown prior to the collision and the cyclist covers one bike length in 4 frames. The video is 15 frames per second. That gives 15mph. It doesn't look as if the cyclist was able to slow significantly, but that doesn't surpirise me as she only had a single second to react after the car crossed the give way line.
When I saw "71 year old cyclist" I wasn't expecting to see someone riding like a bat out of hell, was quite surprised! I know it was downhill but sheesh! Based on the distance she covered on google maps and the time of the collision she was doing approx 30.57 mph! I thought my grandad was fast!
Had a near miss for the same reason. Was travelling at 20mph+ on a wide fast road on bicycle in the wet, only 1 other car on my side. As a car came to a giveway to my right to turn right, didn't see me due to the car overtaking me. He waited till the car passed then pulled out infront of me, not looking as just waiting for the car to pass.
I sent the video to the police but asked them to have a word with the driver , but not to prosecute as they simply need to improve their observation skills by looking again before pulling out and needing to realise that there could be something in a blindspot behind a vehicle..
It's always a red flag when I'm cycling past a junction as a car obstructs the view of the car waiting at the junction.
I always subconsciously think that that one car has essentially made me invisible. That's why I always find it a good idea to go tall on the bike to look over cars and see what they do.
Question: (I know this is a bit of whataboutery, but I think it’s an interesting question) If this was two cars and the car on the main road ploughed into the bonnet of the car pulling across without even a hint of braking. Would they face any repercussions?
No
Depends if an occupant was injured as equally as the cyclist in this example (in a fair world anyway - but the courts seem to have a pretty wide scale for this, which shouldn't be the case).
It probably wouldn't have resulted in any injuries and so the police probably wouldn't have got involved. It's unlikely therefore that the CCTV footage would have been examined. The insurance companys would put the red car driver at fault as they crossed the give way. The driver of a car on the main road would only be considered to be at fault if there was evidence they were breaking the speed limit.
No. Ash is victim blaming here, I feel.
Effective observation is key. We need to look for cyclists and motorbikers, not cars because we'll see a car when looking for smaller road users.
There seems to be confusion whether the cyclist pled guilty to 'careless' or 'dangerous' driving. The daily mail article mentions both, and even this video features both, which was it?
That reminds Me of a collision I was in. I stopped at a stop sign, I had an obstructed view, I did NOT creep forward before making the decision to go. I got hit in the front passenger corner, and got pushed up the sidewalk into a telephone pole. No one was injured. I learned My lesson, I'm a really careful driver.
Thank God the cyclist survived that devastating crash at 71 years old. Clearly she is fit, and I think it played a role, however her injuries will likely linger for the rest of her life.
Your analysis is first class, Ashley.
I wasn't sure about saying the cyclist should have been able to have stopped in time , and that she seemed to be going too fast and the car didn't seem to be. The camera angle and perspective may have been misleading and i was not sure that in that case i was being unfair but then you revealed that there was a slight hill , and I can imagine her free wheeling , so it was an unfortunate set of circumstances, taking the grey car into account.
If a car doing 19mph hit the red car, everyone would blame the red car no question asked.
The attempt to blame the cyclist shows just what's wrong on the roads.
My policy now is to look for eye contact after a driver ran over my front wheel, I was saved from going under by my low speed, I was able to avoid body contact and roll away from the car, what I don't get is why that woman kept on going after her front wheels went over something as large as a bike!
I can't help but notice the toxic comments surrounding the original video too. Mostly blaming the lady for going too fast.
One guy had done some crude calculations and posted the results, showing she was doing approximately 19 mph with the speed limit being 30.
I'm not saying she course have done anything to protect herself, but wow, there's some nasty people out there...
Why does everyone immediately compare things to rape thinking it is victim blaming? It is not
Advice is already given to help people avoid that, don’t walk down dark alleys, walk with friends or companions when you can, stay in busy areas. This video includes advice about keeping yourself safe by reducing speed, reducing risk at high risk points on the road and keeping safe
All the “advice” you say is given to women is effectively victim blaming? Why *should* women have to do that? Because some men are dickheads. Why *should* cyclists have to do that? Because some drivers are dickheads. In this case the driver was a dickhead and the cyclist is 100% the victim. The problem as it stands needs to be dealt with at source
Thankyou Ashley yes maybe we all do this . This is precisely the reason I watch your videos. For my benefit . I learn from someone else’s mistake . Sorry for the rider and driver . I can do something to make sure that I do no harm . That was a shocker but so worthy . I hope we all can just stop watch and pay attention to this video and then maybe save a life or change a course of terrible action. 👍
WOW: Talk about Victim-blaming and gaslighting the poor 71 year old cyclist who sustained multiple injuries which you claim were not serious? 5 days in hospital!! I hope you never get hit by a one ton plus vehicle while you're on your bike!!
He won’t. He NEVER does anything even close to remotely wrong when he’s on the road, car or bike included. Haven’t you watched his videos? He’s perfect
@@neilmartin3013 Stop it!! Your comment was way too funny😂😂 I know he's perfect? Wearing dark clothing, dark coloured helmet and having no lights on to be better seen when testing out an E-bike that was sent to him.
Here's one to add fuel to the fire:
I've been in the opposite situation, when I was driving along a road, when I approached a junction.
A moped was approaching the give-way line, on the left, at the junction about 30m away.
The rider looked to their left, but not right, towards me.
The moped was not slowing down for the give way. Then I noticed the green deliveroo box, so I prepared to slow or stop.
at 10m away the rider looked directly at me, then pulled out, turning left. I was already slowing, expecting exactly that.
Since I had priority, should I have carried on, and knocked the rider off?, after all it was his fault, as i had priority.
Of course not, when approaching junctions, i look into them, and if there is someone turning, then I slow slightly, so they can clear.
I was taught that if you can't see, then don't go. It stopped me being run-over many times.
Many people don't look, when turning left, they just continue.
The best one, was a sunday cycle club, just stream out of a junction, over the give way, while I was approaching.
None of them even looked, I did'nt expect them to, as they approached at pace, looking left.
So I stopped an waited, as they streamed through, not one looked right, at all.
How many drivers out there get annoyed by waiting behind a car looking right, left, right, left. I know I’ve been beeped a few times. Imagine if we relent to bullies. This could happen.
I don't think it's fair to fault the cyclists speed here. I've had a similar encounter happen to me, except it was on a roundabout. I had slowed to 12kph, he slowed, we made eye contact, but he didn't stop to emerge. Luckily, he noticed me eventually, screeched to a halt, and missed me by inches. It was slow-motion for me. There was nothing I could've done to avoid it. I was entirely reliant on the driver seeing me.
Ii's the arrogance of these types of drivers thats the problem here. They seem incapable of calculating risk. The confidence these people have that nothing bad will happen is revolting. That cyclist could have been going walking speed (it happens to pedestrians too), and still been hit.
I've literally made eye contact with drivers and they've still pulled out in front of me at junctions. Some drivers are terrible at judging how fast a cyclist is travelling or simply don't care.
I've been cycling for many years and I consider roundabouts as the most dangerous situation for cyclists. You also get may rear endings (vehicle on vehicle) entering roundabouts for the same reasons. Drivers enetering a roundabout are judging whether vehicles already on the roundabout are far enough away that the've time to pull out. They aren't focussed on what's immediately in front of them whether that be another vehicle ahead of them, that has stopped unexpectedly, or a cyclist. I thereofre always ensure I have a plan B on roundabouts if a driver does pull out. Generally, I'd consider myself safe going through the junction in the video though, at a similar speed to this cyclist. There are nevertheless circumstnaces where it isn't safe. A combination of an impatient driver and the view of driver and cyclist being obscured by another vehicle.
Looks like stop signs would be better than yield at that junction.
I absolutely agree with you Ashley, I wouldn’t have cycled with no anticipation through that junction…