I can respect you wanting to talk about this Wizards and Warriors. But I wish that you would do more Sci-Fi video's. When will we see more on Star Wars or maybe even Star Trek?
This is the nerd shit I live for, economic and societal analysis of fantasy cultures that never existed because seeing how fantastical cultures functioned according to their own fantastical rules and history is just so much fun. Thank you for making the plunge for all of this for all of us.
I have to remind myself that Tolkiens works are fiction and not fact, it’s just so detailed and so much life put into it that it’s hard to believe that it is fantasy. Another excellent video Wizards 👍
Yeah he truly didn't only write awesome stories, but rather he created an incredible universe/world. I mean who creates several languages just for a story ...
@@manueljoshua175 From what I've read about Tolkien, which makes him that much more awesome, is that he created the languages first, THEN created the stories to use them in. Tier one imagination.
The relationship between the first men and the dwarfs, reminds me of the relationship between the Han Chinese townsfolks and the nomadic Jin of Manchuria. The Chinese exchanged horses with the Jin inexchange for weapons and protection.
Are you part of the wizards and warriors team because if so then explain why you won't be making anymore elderscrolls videos their is so much more to cover
I love those videos about economy and society of fictional worlds. It just shows how much (or how little in some cases) work's been put into the worldbuilding
Thank you for another great video. I watch every one of the videos on both your channels and enjoy them immensely. Every morning I look forward to seeing what new piece of knowledge and history I can learn thanks to your efforts. Keep up the good work!
I like the info on the currency of the lands of men and hobbits during these ages (2nd and 3rd ages). As there is scarce of any info on currency and the value of things in Tolkien's world, but you've put together the pieces and painted a better understanding on this. The illustrations of course help visualize this all so much better.
Enjoyed the video! You made some great pints. You also mentioned in your Roha video Gondor had stores of armory, so I guess that is another part of their income. Blacksmithing. The numenoreans learned a lot from the elves and the dwarves, and we can see it in your video. Great job!
arnor and gondor a most powerful and rich kingdoms. but unfortunately arnor fell to dark . but gondor still flourished under king aragorn. one of my fantasy universes. brillliant video. econmy of lotr is one of the not talken much. this videos are brilliant. love and huge fan of you from sri lanka.
I like how people jump on Martin's comment about Aragorn's tax policy when every video in this series expressly states that Tolkien didn't explain these things and the series is making best guesses by reading between the lines. We still don't know what his tax policy was but we can imagine what it might be given the evidence left for us.
Exactly. All Martin wanted to do is to understand what "Aragorn ruled wisely and well" actually meant. Was his tax policy so great that he is remembered as great administrator? Or his image as a fighter against Sauron and the great uniter of Arnor and Gondor was enough to earn him the praise that he received? Or was there another reason altogether? Martin has nothing but respect for Tolkien, but he wants to get into what exactly being a great ruler(or being a ruler as is) is. His "tax policy" quote has less to do with actual nitty-gritty details of state apparatus and more with what constitues the morality, status and personality of a ruler. If anything, it is a critique of "Fisher King" trope rather then Tolkien or LOTR.
Oh well, whatever tax policy Aragorn had I bet it was more lenient towards the people than policy in this regard of his distant ancestors ;). "They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines." -J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131 :)
Good video. Just a small pronunciation hint. CH in Tolkien languages is pronounced as a hard H, similar to say German "achtung", and NOT as in English CH, say in "church".
@@paulceglinski3087 hah, maybe! What was Sindarin pronunciation of CH? Soft CH as in German Ich before e, i and y and hard CH as in achtung before a, o and u? It's been some time since my last Sindarin excursion! :D
@@ilejovcevski79 LOL, nah I like the Shire. The folk know how to have a good time and they use the tongue of men. Only thing, they need to get higher ceilings. Cheers.
Thank you for exposing even more the genius of Tolkien, the amount of thought put into the LOTR universe is incredible. To add, thank you for all your videos, they help me sleep. 🤞🏻✌🏻
Minas Tirith is not inspired by Constantinople, but Osgiliath is. Osgiliath was the original capital of Gondor and mankinds largest city. The center of trade and culture as described by Boromir in the extended edition. And Osgiliath is divided into East and West by Water. But I can see the parallels in regards of defense between Minas Tirith and Constantinople though.
@pyropulse Osgiliath=Capital Constantinople=Capital Osgiliath=divieded by water Contantinople=divided by water Osgiliath=constantly under siege and historcially main targed by Gondors enemies Constantinple=constantly under siege and historcially main targed by Gondors enemies Osgiliath=The center of culture of the eastern part of the western world Constantinople=The center of culture of the eastern part of the western world Minas Tirith is definatly an important city. But our focus on the movies shifts the importance of Osgiliath away from our focus. In the lore, Osgiliath is the key city of mankind since the fall of Anor. And even before was one of the key cities next to the capital of Arnor. Thats why Denethor eyes Osgiliath so much. Its Gondors true prestige.
After securing an alliance with the Hobbits, and granting them vast new lands in the west to beef up production, Aragorn simply taxed the hell out of pipe-weed. The highest source of revenue was Butterburn's Dispensary in Bree.
I like the map you are using around 8:10. Specifically, I like the color distinctions between realms and the added labelling. Is there a location where this can be obtained?
As Tolkien wrote in a letter: “I am more conscious of my sketchiness in the archaeology and realien than in the economics: clothes, agricultural implements, metal-working, pottery, architecture and the like. Not to mention music and its apparatus. I am not incapable or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the ‘mortals’ go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that the economic likelihood is there and could be worked out. Gondor has sufficient ‘townlands’ and fiefs with good water and road approach to provide for its population and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older arts and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no very great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends) : no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire.” So he notes numerous 'industries' in Gondor, the shipbuilding, fishing, some sea trade in times when there was possibility of it and safety (the Corsairs of Umbar posed serious threat to all traffic on the sea in later time). Agriculture and horticulture, various arts, crafts and produce, mining, smelting etc. stonework, and stone quarries, construction, masonry and all sorts of professions and crafts.
In it's time of glory Arnor seems to have some significant wealth, though it's rather observable through a bit unusual way, the treasures of Barrow Downs, the tombs of the Tyrn Gorthad though in origin go way back to the First Age and Elder Days, they were used as burial grounds for the people of Arnor and many of their kings, lords and leaders were buried there, often with rich burial goods. This seems to imply that the lords and kings of Arnor had significant wealth in their time, seeing as the barrow in which Frodo and co. were imprisoned was supposed to be tomb of the last prince of Cardolan! So there were riches in the hands of their lords even in heavy decline of that time! "Tom went back in again, and there was a sound of much thumping and stamping. When he came out he was bearing in his arms a great load of treasure: things of gold, silver, copper, and bronze; many beads and chains and jewelled ornaments. He climbed the green barrow and laid them all on top in the sunshine." ... "They looked about in amazement, first at Frodo, and then at Tom standing large as life on the barrow-top above them; and then at themselves in their thin white rags, crowned and belted with pale gold, and jingling with trinkets." ... "While they were eating Tom went up to the mound, and looked through the treasures. Most of these he made into a pile that glistened and sparkled on the grass. He bade them lie there 'free to all finders, birds, beasts. Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it. He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last: 'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!' For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun." So many treasures definitely indicate a lot of wealth among the nobleborn. Arnor in the end despite it's difficulties, had as neighbors the elven realm (Lindon) and dwarven realm (Moria) so there was opportunity for trade! Especially with Dwarves of Moria, though Tolkien does not specify that it was so, it seems obvious Moria was still around as a realm when Arnor fought with Angmar. Mithril was still mined for quite some time. The basis of economy for Arnor is as always farming the land, kings once had many farms, woods, cornlands and vineyards, especially in the region which later became Shire! The grassy hills and open plains were ideal pastures and the Barrow Downs before their haunting were place for many flocks of sheep and grazing land! “The land was rich and kindly, and though it had long been deserted when they entered it, it had before been well tilled, and there the king had once had many farms, cornlands, vineyards, and woods. Forty leagues it stretched from the Far Downs to the Brandywine Bridge, and fifty from the northern moors to the marshes in the south. The Hobbits named it the Shire, as the region of the authority of their Thain, and a district of well-ordered business; and there in that pleasant corner of the world they plied their well-ordered business of living…”
Wait. If there was such a convenient trade route south of the mountains, why did the Fellowship have to go through Moria or over the mountains? In fact, it looks like going south through Arnor, they would have passed farther away from Isengard and Lothlórien.
I have just been re-reading the books. It is implied that: 1) Sauron and Sarumon would expect that, and so they would be caught easily going that way. 2) Even if they COULD avoid detection (unlikely due to the country being wide open) it was practically depopulated, with little chance to have food or shelter at need. Plus, wargs had found them when they failed to go over the Caradras mountain pass, so they had to get out of open country immediately. 3) It would take too long, over a year probably of travel going by foot. Could they afford to waste that much time with Sauron on the move knowing the ring is out there? 4) If they went that way they would have to pass through Gondor,.... and who knows what Boromir or his father would have done if the ring passed that way, completely in their possession if they wished it.
That road passes a few miles to the south of Isengard. And the area that the road passes through before Isengard was Dunland, which was basically under Saruman's control at that point.
Excellent video! It's funny how GRM started the stupid "what's Aragon's tax policy meme" when it's clear Tolkien put more effort into the fine detail of his world, reeks of jealousy tbh
Yeah the entire question just rubs me the wrong way. Like it’s just such a weird criticism to have of a series especially fantasy. It is meant to be unrealistic and as such don’t need to know every little detail of the world
I always found it strange that Tolkien basically implies Arnor and Dunland were practically depopulated by the time of the Fellowship, with the exception of Bree and her sister villages and the Shire. That huge land should be teeming with peoples and towns, or at least reasonable agrarian settlement like the Shire, but no realistic explanation is given why that isn't so.
I think he simply did not care about that region. Its to massive a region with too fertile soil and abundance of resource not to be populated. Also plagues do not kill everyone. At the height of the Black death it killed 1/3 of the entire European population because it needs live hosts to live itself.
I always thought of Osgiliath being more like Constantinople, with it being on the great river instead of the Bosporus Straight and the Dome of the Stars being similar to the hagia Sophia.
Another great video! Just putting it out there. The "ch" in elvish and mannish place names in Gondor and Arnor (ex. Lossarnach) is pronounced like the last sound in the Scottish word "loch" and not like the ch in cheese or leech.
Well the economy of those lands nad it's peoples is never directly adressed by Tolkien, BUT there are some things indirectly which can explain some of those, obviously the land of Harad, or Haradwaith in general is a vast generalization of entire region, of the far south, equivalent of Africa in our world, so naturally one expects it similar economically, from the snippets we see of the warriors of Harad, they wore a lot of gold jewellery: "They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold." So one can expect Harad lands to be as is usually the case with such 'exotic' locations, to be rich in gold, ivory and other such resources, metals like copper, tin (since brazen plates are mentioned to be used by Haradrim so bronze production, probably lots of gems, the big part would be also: slavery, since we know that slaves and probably slave trade would be big part of economic activities in those lands (Umbar took slaves in raids, as well as lots and lots of plunder, capturing peoples from Gondor or other places so they could most likely sell them, or put to work on the oars in their ships), we can also expect that a lot of the tribes of Haradrim would have similar economy to those of real world ancient Africa, desert peoples being horsemen and herders, probably lots of exotic products from agriculture and local plant species, salt trade probably like in ancient times West Africa, caravans of camels (on the annotated map by Tolkien there is reference to camels in Harad) Mumakil were probably also big thing, beasts of burden as well as war beasts, they could provide a lot of labor force for the Haradrim in transportation, in construction helping build "many towns and walls of stone" (as is said to have been build among those peoples under influence of Sauron in Silmarillion). As for Rhun it is mostly inhabited (at least in westernost parts) by numerous tribes of nomadic or semi-nomadic peoples so asking what their economy would be like asking what was say....Scythian economy (they were mostly nomads and warriors and a lot of Easterling tribes may share passing similarity with the Scythians, so their economy was based on nomadic or seminomadic animal breeding and herding (horses, cattle, and sheep). Wealth, especially in the case of the Scythian aristocracy, was acquired in wars and pillaging raids and through the slave trade with the Greeks from around the Black Sea, in case of Easterlings it may be actually the same! But instead of Greeks they would be trading with their closest neighbors, Variags of Khand, Haradrim etc. the Wainrider tribe enslaved the Northmen of Rhovanion in their time when they expanded into the west, so slavery and slave trade once again is also highly probably in their case).
Great video, but I am sure that you show Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul too far in the North. According to the maps I know it was more or less opposite to Osgiliath and Minas Anor/Minas Tirith, just a little bit more to the North
Can you talk about the military of the different factions in Middle Earth? Because in the video games, players and gamers would find many different units that each faction has. Also, I'm very much interested in these kinds of things.
OOooooOOoo neat, I am a major nerd for this stuff. Be cool if you did the economies of other settings someday, I wonder if Elder Scrolls has enough lore towards their economies?
If you want a working economy in an Elder Scrolls game, just look at Daggerfall. Despite its crippling bugs due to procedural generation (one can enter a dungeon and be trapped within because there is literally no way out), it had more simulation elements than most modern games today. Want to buy a house? You can get a mortgage for it. But make sure not to miss your monthly payments to the bank, else you might end up being accused of crime, at which point you have to defend yourself in front of the judge. You can even try to lie your way through it... That said, Daggerfall is an oddity. When we look at "modern" Elder Scrolls (Starting with Morrowind), we can see that there are signs of an integrated economy among the provinces of the Empire. Metalwork from Skyrim, woodwork from Valenwood, weird, exotic plants and animals from Black Marsh/ Morrowind, etc. However the value of the "Septim" is unreliable due to there not being lower denominations. Also it makes little sense. One would need to lug around gigantic bags of money for casual everyday transactions. I can understand having a single denomination of money for gameplay reasons, but it oversimplifies the economy to the point where we can't use the currency to help explain how it works.
@@Darkdaej That is why my Skyrim build has a mod that has other coinage, both outdated and modern, it adds to the economy. But I do sometimes laugh that there is not a single coin type smaller than a gold piece, which in theory is made pointless with the transmute spell. Anyone who had that and some iron would ruin the markets of the whole Empire. And don't get me started on how the slave system works on Morrowind by raiding OTHER IMPERIAL CITIZIANS and no one seems to mind beyond going "Ehh they really shouldn't do that" Hell, in every game you find beggars, why? You can literally pick money off the ground in the form of plants to sell as ingredients. I know it is a game, so I don't really mind but the more I look at it, or Cyberpunk I have to wonder why there is literal fortunes just ready to be snatched up by anyone.
@@lowenergyvideos4658 Then you have practically unknown games like the X franchise of space simulators that (usually, forget X:Rebirth, it's garbage) pull it off really well. X3: Reunion is a great example of having an economy run itself. However these games are extremely complex and hard to get into (heck scripting knowledge is actually beneficial). But I can let the game sim itself for months and watch the markets ebb and flow depending on the random events occurring in the universe, all starting off of the Energy Cell as the most basic trade resource, up to foodstuffs, clothing, jewelry, electronics, weapons, starships and even entire space stations being purchased and sold. Your interference in that economy can create incredibly opportunities...or bring absolute chaos. It's up to you. Be warned though. EVERYTHING costs money. Even saving your game is considered "Salvage Insurance" and costs 5,000 credits a pop. Thankfully you get a free save at the last space station you dock at, but if you're just out exploring and feel like saving because Pirates just showed up, you gotta make sure you bought some beforehand...
Please make more videos on the elder scrolls universe I don't understand why you said in your most recent one that it would be your last one their is so much more to cover the war of the red diamond and Cameron the usurper the establishment of the skyrim empire and so much more
Explaining "The Warp in the West" would be nigh on impossible. In terms of "Dragon Breaks", this one is just incomprehensible. A good way to make all of Daggerfall's endings canon, but it's still a nightmare to understand how it could actually work. All we can do is say that all of them happened at the same time. And to do it proper justice it would need to be at least an hour long.
Ah yes. The Trad-Classical architecture enthusiasts had excellent trade ties to the Cottagecore women through the Palantir of Etsy and it's ability to double the price of any good.
Well, I can't wait to see how fanboys try to make Martin seem like a Tolkien hater this time... Let's use one example that he mentioned (which wasn't a criticism) and act like he dislikes his favorite author and favorite fantasy books.
Martin seemed like he had inspiration from Tolkien. I'm no expert and have read Tolkien's works plus a lot of R.R. Martin. It seems to me that Martin's stuff is relatable to Tolkien, but more of a human world. No hobbits, but a fair share of orcs or goblins or whatever the creatures above the wall were. Just thoughts. Cheers.
@@paulceglinski3087 Martin rereads LOTR every year(at least he says this himself). He absolutely does not see himself as some kind of anti-Tolkien, just wants to explore the themes that he thinks were neglected by Tolkien or that he didn't look into.
@@Dreaming05Man Sir,if you read my post, I agree with you. I just stated his "world" is more human oriented. True? I've read both and like, fairly well, both authors. May have even read Lord before you were out of diapers. Just saying. Cheers.
@@paulceglinski3087 oh, I do not argue with you. Just wanted to point out (and agree with you) that Martin does view Tolkien as inspiration, unlike what general opinion about him states.
He actually hated pipe weed being equated with marijuana- He didn't like the association with hippies. He himself smoked pipe tobacco; I think it was his love of tobacco that spawned leaf.
5:01 that’s not the banner of andor dude you just copped and pasted the first image you googled the official flag of Arnor was a black field displaying the Septur of Annuminas flanked by two snakes as was displayed on the ring of Barahir and crowned by 7 stars
Our other series:
Middle-Earth - ua-cam.com/video/cVHygcEZbjY/v-deo.html
Witcher - ua-cam.com/video/VISScJAyl5s/v-deo.html
Game of Thrones - ua-cam.com/play/PL2Qq-rUSt7b3JN6nfgBaXCO-Fq2AI3m16.html
Warhammer Fantasy - ua-cam.com/video/bn1Oj9QEf3U/v-deo.html
Star Wars - ua-cam.com/play/PL2Qq-rUSt7b3RzrRLfjpViIqP5rE959xT.html
Elder Scrolls - ua-cam.com/play/PL2Qq-rUSt7b0GMTIPuM1fMHowJEFbbC9D.html
Meh
Looking forward to battles from the first age 👍
I can respect you wanting to talk about this Wizards and Warriors. But I wish that you would do more Sci-Fi video's. When will we see more on Star Wars or maybe even Star Trek?
I know this Voice. instant sub :) I have no idea where from like lol (historygraph?)
This is the nerd shit I live for, economic and societal analysis of fantasy cultures that never existed because seeing how fantastical cultures functioned according to their own fantastical rules and history is just so much fun. Thank you for making the plunge for all of this for all of us.
I have to remind myself that Tolkiens works are fiction and not fact, it’s just so detailed and so much life put into it that it’s hard to believe that it is fantasy. Another excellent video Wizards 👍
Yeah he truly didn't only write awesome stories, but rather he created an incredible universe/world.
I mean who creates several languages just for a story ...
@@manueljoshua175 From what I've read about Tolkien, which makes him that much more awesome, is that he created the languages first, THEN created the stories to use them in. Tier one imagination.
@@michaelfisher7170 well if you look at what he studied it makes total sense.
@@manueljoshua175 Exactly.
@@manueljoshua175 a phonologist apparently.
Fascinating to see the nods to real world history that Tolkien wrote into Middle Earth. A whole video dedicated to those parallels would be fantastic.
The relationship between the first men and the dwarfs, reminds me of the relationship between the Han Chinese townsfolks and the nomadic Jin of Manchuria. The Chinese exchanged horses with the Jin inexchange for weapons and protection.
Interesting
“Aragorn ruled wisely and well”
Well Martin... Here it is... Here's your Economy of Middle earth
Are you part of the wizards and warriors team because if so then explain why you won't be making anymore elderscrolls videos their is so much more to cover
Cry less
@@balabanasireti the fuck?
@@balabanasireti It seems you are the one crying here.
@@alfieingrouille1528
1) He obviously isn't and
2) why should they owe you an explanation, anyway? 😂
I love those videos about economy and society of fictional worlds. It just shows how much (or how little in some cases) work's been put into the worldbuilding
Thank you for another great video. I watch every one of the videos on both your channels and enjoy them immensely. Every morning I look forward to seeing what new piece of knowledge and history I can learn thanks to your efforts. Keep up the good work!
I like the info on the currency of the lands of men and hobbits during these ages (2nd and 3rd ages). As there is scarce of any info on currency and the value of things in Tolkien's world, but you've put together the pieces and painted a better understanding on this. The illustrations of course help visualize this all so much better.
Enjoyed the video! You made some great pints. You also mentioned in your Roha video Gondor had stores of armory, so I guess that is another part of their income. Blacksmithing.
The numenoreans learned a lot from the elves and the dwarves, and we can see it in your video. Great job!
arnor and gondor a most powerful and rich kingdoms. but unfortunately arnor fell to dark . but gondor still flourished under king aragorn. one of my fantasy universes. brillliant video. econmy of lotr is one of the not talken much. this videos are brilliant. love and huge fan of you from sri lanka.
I like how people jump on Martin's comment about Aragorn's tax policy when every video in this series expressly states that Tolkien didn't explain these things and the series is making best guesses by reading between the lines. We still don't know what his tax policy was but we can imagine what it might be given the evidence left for us.
Exactly. All Martin wanted to do is to understand what "Aragorn ruled wisely and well" actually meant. Was his tax policy so great that he is remembered as great administrator? Or his image as a fighter against Sauron and the great uniter of Arnor and Gondor was enough to earn him the praise that he received? Or was there another reason altogether?
Martin has nothing but respect for Tolkien, but he wants to get into what exactly being a great ruler(or being a ruler as is) is. His "tax policy" quote has less to do with actual nitty-gritty details of state apparatus and more with what constitues the morality, status and personality of a ruler. If anything, it is a critique of "Fisher King" trope rather then Tolkien or LOTR.
Oh well, whatever tax policy Aragorn had I bet it was more lenient towards the people than policy in this regard of his distant ancestors ;).
"They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and ‘factories’ of lords seeking wealth, and the Númenóreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Númenóreans began the forging of arms and engines."
-J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 131
:)
This is the kind of shit I love. Thanks K&G/W&W 🙏🏾
Good video. Just a small pronunciation hint. CH in Tolkien languages is pronounced as a hard H, similar to say German "achtung", and NOT as in English CH, say in "church".
It's possible Officially Devin has a little Elven blood and can't pronounce the soft ch? Cheers.
@@paulceglinski3087 hah, maybe! What was Sindarin pronunciation of CH? Soft CH as in German Ich before e, i and y and hard CH as in achtung before a, o and u? It's been some time since my last Sindarin excursion! :D
@@ilejovcevski79 LOL, nah I like the Shire. The folk know how to have a good time and they use the tongue of men. Only thing, they need to get higher ceilings. Cheers.
Thank you for exposing even more the genius of Tolkien, the amount of thought put into the LOTR universe is incredible. To add, thank you for all your videos, they help me sleep. 🤞🏻✌🏻
Minas Tirith is not inspired by Constantinople, but Osgiliath is. Osgiliath was the original capital of Gondor and mankinds largest city. The center of trade and culture as described by Boromir in the extended edition. And Osgiliath is divided into East and West by Water.
But I can see the parallels in regards of defense between Minas Tirith and Constantinople though.
@pyropulse Osgiliath=Capital
Constantinople=Capital
Osgiliath=divieded by water
Contantinople=divided by water
Osgiliath=constantly under siege and historcially main targed by Gondors enemies
Constantinple=constantly under siege and historcially main targed by Gondors enemies
Osgiliath=The center of culture of the eastern part of the western world
Constantinople=The center of culture of the eastern part of the western world
Minas Tirith is definatly an important city. But our focus on the movies shifts the importance of Osgiliath away from our focus. In the lore, Osgiliath is the key city of mankind since the fall of Anor. And even before was one of the key cities next to the capital of Arnor. Thats why Denethor eyes Osgiliath so much. Its Gondors true prestige.
Minas Tirith is in fact based in Constantinople but not a parallel
After securing an alliance with the Hobbits, and granting them vast new lands in the west to beef up production, Aragorn simply taxed the hell out of pipe-weed. The highest source of revenue was Butterburn's Dispensary in Bree.
I like the map you are using around 8:10. Specifically, I like the color distinctions between realms and the added labelling. Is there a location where this can be obtained?
such a good channel
Finally, we got to see Aragon's tax policy!
I just wish I could ask Mr. Tolkien whether they grow Maize in the Shire, and if they have chili peppers in Umbar.
Please If you could I would like a society e economy from Númenor.
As Tolkien wrote in a letter:
“I am more conscious of my sketchiness in the archaeology and realien than in the economics: clothes, agricultural implements, metal-working, pottery, architecture and the like. Not to mention music and its apparatus.
I am not incapable or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the ‘mortals’ go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that the economic likelihood is there and could be worked out. Gondor has sufficient ‘townlands’ and fiefs with good water and road approach to provide for its population and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older arts and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no very great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends) : no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire.”
So he notes numerous 'industries' in Gondor, the shipbuilding, fishing, some sea trade in times when there was possibility of it and safety (the Corsairs of Umbar posed serious threat to all traffic on the sea in later time). Agriculture and horticulture, various arts, crafts and produce, mining, smelting etc. stonework, and stone quarries, construction, masonry and all sorts of professions and crafts.
Point of Order: Osgiliath was the Capitol of Gondor, Not Minas Tirith, Minas Tirith was build and meant to be a Fortress/Citadel....
In it's time of glory Arnor seems to have some significant wealth, though it's rather observable through a bit unusual way, the treasures of Barrow Downs, the tombs of the Tyrn Gorthad though in origin go way back to the First Age and Elder Days, they were used as burial grounds for the people of Arnor and many of their kings, lords and leaders were buried there, often with rich burial goods. This seems to imply that the lords and kings of Arnor had significant wealth in their time, seeing as the barrow in which Frodo and co. were imprisoned was supposed to be tomb of the last prince of Cardolan! So there were riches in the hands of their lords even in heavy decline of that time!
"Tom went back in again, and there was a sound of much thumping and stamping. When he came out he was bearing in his arms a great load of treasure: things of gold, silver, copper, and bronze; many beads and chains and jewelled ornaments. He climbed the green barrow and laid them all on top in the sunshine."
...
"They looked about in amazement, first at Frodo, and then at Tom standing large as life on the barrow-top above them; and then at themselves in their thin white rags, crowned and belted with pale gold, and jingling with trinkets."
...
"While they were eating Tom went up to the mound, and looked through the treasures. Most of these he made into a pile that glistened and sparkled on the grass. He bade them lie there 'free to all finders, birds, beasts. Elves or Men, and all kindly creatures'; for so the spell of the mound should be broken and scattered and no Wight ever come back to it. He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last:
'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!'
For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun."
So many treasures definitely indicate a lot of wealth among the nobleborn. Arnor in the end despite it's difficulties, had as neighbors the elven realm (Lindon) and dwarven realm (Moria) so there was opportunity for trade! Especially with Dwarves of Moria, though Tolkien does not specify that it was so, it seems obvious Moria was still around as a realm when Arnor fought with Angmar. Mithril was still mined for quite some time.
The basis of economy for Arnor is as always farming the land, kings once had many farms, woods, cornlands and vineyards, especially in the region which later became Shire! The grassy hills and open plains were ideal pastures and the Barrow Downs before their haunting were place for many flocks of sheep and grazing land!
“The land was rich and kindly, and though it had long been deserted when they entered it, it had before been well tilled, and there the king had once had many farms, cornlands, vineyards, and woods.
Forty leagues it stretched from the Far Downs to the Brandywine Bridge, and fifty from the northern moors to the marshes in the south. The Hobbits named it the Shire, as the region of the authority of their Thain, and a district of well-ordered business; and there in that pleasant corner of the world they plied their well-ordered business of living…”
What kind of authority succeeded Arnor in the region...
Awesome video can't wait for more.
Wait.
If there was such a convenient trade route south of the mountains, why did the Fellowship have to go through Moria or over the mountains?
In fact, it looks like going south through Arnor, they would have passed farther away from Isengard and Lothlórien.
As I recall Sauron and Sauramon we're watching the roads south.
I have just been re-reading the books. It is implied that:
1) Sauron and Sarumon would expect that, and so they would be caught easily going that way.
2) Even if they COULD avoid detection (unlikely due to the country being wide open) it was practically depopulated, with little chance to have food or shelter at need. Plus, wargs had found them when they failed to go over the Caradras mountain pass, so they had to get out of open country immediately.
3) It would take too long, over a year probably of travel going by foot. Could they afford to waste that much time with Sauron on the move knowing the ring is out there?
4) If they went that way they would have to pass through Gondor,.... and who knows what Boromir or his father would have done if the ring passed that way, completely in their possession if they wished it.
but the road passes by Isengard. Not sure this reason is ever mentioned though.
@@BountyFlamor Pretty sure that the road passing close to Isengard is mentionned in the movie.
That road passes a few miles to the south of Isengard. And the area that the road passes through before Isengard was Dunland, which was basically under Saruman's control at that point.
Im actually impressed! 10/10 ...Tough it seems that some 8 amazon "superfans" do not share my apreciation.
Excellent video!
It's funny how GRM started the stupid "what's Aragon's tax policy meme" when it's clear Tolkien put more effort into the fine detail of his world, reeks of jealousy tbh
Yeah the entire question just rubs me the wrong way. Like it’s just such a weird criticism to have of a series especially fantasy. It is meant to be unrealistic and as such don’t need to know every little detail of the world
@@robertoleary5470 really well put
Wish for videos about Stargate series soon...
A great channel. Keep up the good work
I always found it strange that Tolkien basically implies Arnor and Dunland were practically depopulated by the time of the Fellowship, with the exception of Bree and her sister villages and the Shire. That huge land should be teeming with peoples and towns, or at least reasonable agrarian settlement like the Shire, but no realistic explanation is given why that isn't so.
Because arnor was conquered and razed by the witch king's forces?
Disease, famine, and the Witch King’s campaigns depopulated the land.
I think he simply did not care about that region.
Its to massive a region with too fertile soil and abundance of resource not to be populated.
Also plagues do not kill everyone.
At the height of the Black death it killed 1/3 of the entire European population because it needs live hosts to live itself.
Simple, he needed to be like that for his story arc - a good king (Aragorn) makes the land prosper again.
Men did live in Minhiriath and Enedwaith but in minor settlements
Could you please cover the Battle of Autobot City?
I always thought of Osgiliath being more like Constantinople, with it being on the great river instead of the Bosporus Straight and the Dome of the Stars being similar to the hagia Sophia.
Brilliant stuff, thanks 👍
What a great video! Thanks!⚔🏹🧙
Wow not very often that we hear about 4th age stuff, brief as it is in this vid.
Great video! :O
It would be awesome if you'll consider making some video based on the Legend of the Five Rings ;)
Do you plan a Warhammer 40K series?
I wonder how the economy of the Mordor will look like
Work the orcs to death, literally. More can be made. LoL. Cheers.
everything is owned by the state
“I am a Land-Stander. I Stand On Land!”
In this world, would Nazeem have been to the Cloud District of Minas Tirith?
the real question is, does he get to be there very often?
Another great video! Just putting it out there. The "ch" in elvish and mannish place names in Gondor and Arnor (ex. Lossarnach) is pronounced like the last sound in the Scottish word "loch" and not like the ch in cheese or leech.
What would be the economy and society of numeromol?
Will the lands of Rohan, Harad, Umbar, Khand and Rhûn be discussed for their economy and society?
Well the economy of those lands nad it's peoples is never directly adressed by Tolkien, BUT there are some things indirectly which can explain some of those, obviously the land of Harad, or Haradwaith in general is a vast generalization of entire region, of the far south, equivalent of Africa in our world, so naturally one expects it similar economically, from the snippets we see of the warriors of Harad, they wore a lot of gold jewellery:
"They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold."
So one can expect Harad lands to be as is usually the case with such 'exotic' locations, to be rich in gold, ivory and other such resources, metals like copper, tin (since brazen plates are mentioned to be used by Haradrim so bronze production, probably lots of gems, the big part would be also: slavery, since we know that slaves and probably slave trade would be big part of economic activities in those lands (Umbar took slaves in raids, as well as lots and lots of plunder, capturing peoples from Gondor or other places so they could most likely sell them, or put to work on the oars in their ships), we can also expect that a lot of the tribes of Haradrim would have similar economy to those of real world ancient Africa, desert peoples being horsemen and herders, probably lots of exotic products from agriculture and local plant species, salt trade probably like in ancient times West Africa, caravans of camels (on the annotated map by Tolkien there is reference to camels in Harad) Mumakil were probably also big thing, beasts of burden as well as war beasts, they could provide a lot of labor force for the Haradrim in transportation, in construction helping build "many towns and walls of stone" (as is said to have been build among those peoples under influence of Sauron in Silmarillion). As for Rhun it is mostly inhabited (at least in westernost parts) by numerous tribes of nomadic or semi-nomadic peoples so asking what their economy would be like asking what was say....Scythian economy (they were mostly nomads and warriors and a lot of Easterling tribes may share passing similarity with the Scythians, so their economy was based on nomadic or seminomadic animal breeding and herding (horses, cattle, and sheep). Wealth, especially in the case of the Scythian aristocracy, was acquired in wars and pillaging raids and through the slave trade with the Greeks from around the Black Sea, in case of Easterlings it may be actually the same! But instead of Greeks they would be trading with their closest neighbors, Variags of Khand, Haradrim etc. the Wainrider tribe enslaved the Northmen of Rhovanion in their time when they expanded into the west, so slavery and slave trade once again is also highly probably in their case).
When describing Men and Dwarves it is referring to the Middle Men of Dale mainly
Wow & literally first 🥇, wish for videos about Forgotten Ruin series universe soon.
No one cares
Great video, but I am sure that you show Minas Ithil/Minas Morgul too far in the North. According to the maps I know it was more or less opposite to Osgiliath and Minas Anor/Minas Tirith, just a little bit more to the North
Are you guys going to cover Brandon Sanderson's world?
So good
I'd like to make a run to Arnor for some good pipe weed.
waiting for the economies of skyrim and high eleves😂
please do some star wars & star trek battles in your youtube channel please
YES. ARAGORN'S TAX POLICY.
Can you talk about the military of the different factions in Middle Earth? Because in the video games, players and gamers would find many different units that each faction has. Also, I'm very much interested in these kinds of things.
OOooooOOoo neat, I am a major nerd for this stuff.
Be cool if you did the economies of other settings someday, I wonder if Elder Scrolls has enough lore towards their economies?
If you want a working economy in an Elder Scrolls game, just look at Daggerfall. Despite its crippling bugs due to procedural generation (one can enter a dungeon and be trapped within because there is literally no way out), it had more simulation elements than most modern games today. Want to buy a house? You can get a mortgage for it. But make sure not to miss your monthly payments to the bank, else you might end up being accused of crime, at which point you have to defend yourself in front of the judge. You can even try to lie your way through it...
That said, Daggerfall is an oddity.
When we look at "modern" Elder Scrolls (Starting with Morrowind), we can see that there are signs of an integrated economy among the provinces of the Empire. Metalwork from Skyrim, woodwork from Valenwood, weird, exotic plants and animals from Black Marsh/ Morrowind, etc. However the value of the "Septim" is unreliable due to there not being lower denominations. Also it makes little sense. One would need to lug around gigantic bags of money for casual everyday transactions.
I can understand having a single denomination of money for gameplay reasons, but it oversimplifies the economy to the point where we can't use the currency to help explain how it works.
@@Darkdaej That is why my Skyrim build has a mod that has other coinage, both outdated and modern, it adds to the economy.
But I do sometimes laugh that there is not a single coin type smaller than a gold piece, which in theory is made pointless with the transmute spell.
Anyone who had that and some iron would ruin the markets of the whole Empire.
And don't get me started on how the slave system works on Morrowind by raiding OTHER IMPERIAL CITIZIANS and no one seems to mind beyond going "Ehh they really shouldn't do that"
Hell, in every game you find beggars, why? You can literally pick money off the ground in the form of plants to sell as ingredients.
I know it is a game, so I don't really mind but the more I look at it, or Cyberpunk I have to wonder why there is literal fortunes just ready to be snatched up by anyone.
@@lowenergyvideos4658 Then you have practically unknown games like the X franchise of space simulators that (usually, forget X:Rebirth, it's garbage) pull it off really well.
X3: Reunion is a great example of having an economy run itself. However these games are extremely complex and hard to get into (heck scripting knowledge is actually beneficial).
But I can let the game sim itself for months and watch the markets ebb and flow depending on the random events occurring in the universe, all starting off of the Energy Cell as the most basic trade resource, up to foodstuffs, clothing, jewelry, electronics, weapons, starships and even entire space stations being purchased and sold. Your interference in that economy can create incredibly opportunities...or bring absolute chaos. It's up to you.
Be warned though. EVERYTHING costs money. Even saving your game is considered "Salvage Insurance" and costs 5,000 credits a pop. Thankfully you get a free save at the last space station you dock at, but if you're just out exploring and feel like saving because Pirates just showed up, you gotta make sure you bought some beforehand...
Please make more videos on the elder scrolls universe I don't understand why you said in your most recent one that it would be your last one their is so much more to cover the war of the red diamond and Cameron the usurper the establishment of the skyrim empire and so much more
Explaining "The Warp in the West" would be nigh on impossible. In terms of "Dragon Breaks", this one is just incomprehensible. A good way to make all of Daggerfall's endings canon, but it's still a nightmare to understand how it could actually work.
All we can do is say that all of them happened at the same time. And to do it proper justice it would need to be at least an hour long.
Make one about Rohan!! Please
Thank you :)
But what was Aragorn's Tax Policy?
Aragorns tax policies
indeep geek did all of this like a year ago
I think he taxed the rich and fed the poor
Great but few about economy
Is this also king and generals channel?
Minas arnor bottom walls were the same same stone of Isengard
I'd have loved to live in arnor at its height
whats a "dorf"?
It comes from "waldorf". Basically the dorfs invented the waldorf salad (chopping the celery and apples with their axes).
I wonder if George RR martin has seen this
Hahaha I get the reference 🤣
*Sees title, George RR Martin heavy breathing*
Hahahahaaha
Basically, men were nomadic societies and dwarves were settled societies.
How come you never ever ever say "Dwarf" but always end up dropping the W?
do battletech pls
aragorn's tax rate intensifies
@9:09 So Hobbits were the first to smoke pipe weed? They always know how to live the good life.
Why do you say dorv/dorves?
Someone send this to George Martin, Tolkien has his tax policy and complete books 🤣
George R.R. Martin can rest easy, for we now know Aragorn's tax policy.
Ah yes. The Trad-Classical architecture enthusiasts had excellent trade ties to the Cottagecore women through the Palantir of Etsy and it's ability to double the price of any good.
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Well, I can't wait to see how fanboys try to make Martin seem like a Tolkien hater this time...
Let's use one example that he mentioned (which wasn't a criticism) and act like he dislikes his favorite author and favorite fantasy books.
Martin seemed like he had inspiration from Tolkien. I'm no expert and have read Tolkien's works plus a lot of R.R. Martin. It seems to me that Martin's stuff is relatable to Tolkien, but more of a human world. No hobbits, but a fair share of orcs or goblins or whatever the creatures above the wall were. Just thoughts. Cheers.
@@paulceglinski3087 Martin rereads LOTR every year(at least he says this himself). He absolutely does not see himself as some kind of anti-Tolkien, just wants to explore the themes that he thinks were neglected by Tolkien or that he didn't look into.
This quote is absolutely misunderstood and used completely out of context of what Martin meant originally.
@@Dreaming05Man Sir,if you read my post, I agree with you. I just stated his "world" is more human oriented. True? I've read both and like, fairly well, both authors. May have even read Lord before you were out of diapers. Just saying. Cheers.
@@paulceglinski3087 oh, I do not argue with you. Just wanted to point out (and agree with you) that Martin does view Tolkien as inspiration, unlike what general opinion about him states.
Arnorian. Not Arnorish
Yes, I am that pedantic
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In for Aragorn's tax policy.....for the benefit of George Martin 🙂
Obligatory comment for the algorithm
All I need to know about is Aragorn’s tax policies
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what J.R.R. Tolkien meant with Pipe Weed.
I don't think it was tabac. Hobbits like a good time.
Are you saying the Hobbits were a bunch of weird stoners?
@@jeremypaillotin9801 yes.
He actually hated pipe weed being equated with marijuana- He didn't like the association with hippies.
He himself smoked pipe tobacco; I think it was his love of tobacco that spawned leaf.
He meant Tobacco.
Lmao this intense battle music over the economics of fantasy tobacco/cannabis
And Amazon comes and shits on Tolkien
The Kingdom of Arnor sounds a lot like the Kingdom of Sarnor from "A Song of Ice and Fire".
Why call Arnor Western Kingdom? That's more like the Northern Kingdom 🤷
5:01 that’s not the banner of andor dude you just copped and pasted the first image you googled the official flag of Arnor was a black field displaying the Septur of Annuminas flanked by two snakes as was displayed on the ring of Barahir and crowned by 7 stars
Fifth comment!
Its Sad that you care so much about that
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