If you continue your hypoxic training could you, please, get a blood test? It is very interesting whether your red blood cell count (RBC) and hemoglobin level (HGB) will change. If these two parameters rise (they usually rise as a body's compensatory response to chronic hypoxaemia, for example, in highlanders), you could definitely say that your performance improvement is due to your hypoxic training sessions. If your performance will improve further, but these parameters are relatively stable, you could be certain that all the benefits were a result of new training schedule.
This is actually really interesting. I happen to live at 2600meters over the sea level. I regularly go upwards of 3300m. On the rare occasion when I get closer to sea level, I feel immediately stronger and for longer periods of time. Then again, it is also more difficult to cut through the air. Now, i train without a power meter, so my experience is entirely one of feel, and not exact science, but the difference is definitely there. On a side note: Joe looks remarkably similar to Elijah Wood doesn’t he?
Pretty much all the scientific literature/meta-analysis are categoric on it : you don't get any long term benefits or physiological adaptations by training high. The thing that would be interesting is to incorporate blood work analysis before and after, because since they don't do it, there is now way of knowing if you get true physiological benefits. The method of the "study" is weak, but still, very interesting for the public. but nice video ! very well explain and I like the fact that Joe stayed sceptical and realistic on his experience.
Working without oxygen like this, does that not simply amount to doing more anaerobic work, period? I think it is generally understood that 6 weeks is basically the period during which anaerobic gains can be maximized, without much improvement to be expected beyond six weeks. Could that be the source of Joe's improvement?
would be interesting if it could be controlled by something like zwift, the higher up the mountain you go, the less oxygen you get, add in the kicker climb and it's the ultimate indoor climbing training
well done video, really glad you guys are not immediately jumping on a hype train for new training methods and keeping a skeptical eye on scientifically unproven methods. I'd be curious as to know how much the psychological aspect plays a role in results as well. I'd also be interested in learning about long term benefits and dangers of this sort of training. Keep up the good work guys!
That's an impressive FTP increase in just 6 weeks! It's a shame they don't have research backing up their claims because a permanent physiological adaptation such as increase in mitochondrial density would be amazing. But IMO it seems more likely, just like with time at altitude, it's a temporary gain caused by a higher red blood cell count. What do you think Joe?
it's normal they don't have research to back of their claims. Since the litterature is clear on it : there is no permanent/long term physiological benefits or adaptations by training high.
So it’s not much of an increase in hemoglobin, I work at a place similar to this in Calgary Canada. One of the reasons we see such good results is simply when as you train at altitude you get higher oxidative stress at any given workload. So that translates to increased stress on the energy systems but less stress on the muscular systems therefore you can recover faster, and the quality of the sea level workouts can be better. Or that you get the extra stress on the oxidative system that are just harder to reach at training at sea level. Exact mechanism at work here is being studied a lot right now, I’m not an expert yet compared to others out there but we know it shows results. And there is a ton of other applications to this type of training.
Yeah unfortunately the evidence is 'lacking' at best, with LHTL having a stronger argument of the two - 1. Lundby C, Millet GP, Calbet JA, Bärtsch P, Subudhi AW. Does “altitude training” increase exercise performance in elite athletes? Br J Sports Med. 2012;46(11):792-795. doi:10.1136/bjsports-2012-091231.
Exactly, and if training high, only do very short hard anaerobic efforts. That's to negate the lack of oxygen, as vo2 efforts aren't effective. So then, what's the point lol
Very interesting. Not really sure about this, but power based TSS is expected to drop if you are 'training at altitude.' TSS doesn't factor altitude, unless you've reset your FTP to the altitude test value, but then again I'm not sure if thats very precise if you are training simultaneously outdoors and at simulated altitude. hrTSS might be interesting to look at. Comparing blood markers before and after the training plan would have ideal.
very interesting and well done on those numbers. As cyclist we tend to always want to be in the best form to cycle but something very interesting that i came across is that everyone over looks the condition of theirs hearts. Would be interesting to see what effect this type of training has on your heart muscles. ECG and just a Echocardiogram to see if there is any abnormalities or thickening of the heart muscle and what happens to your resting heart rate. We all like to push the limit but never think of the damage we do to our hearts.
What was you're previous 20min record? We don't know how fit you were related to you're previous record when started the six week program. That will probably give a better idea of the progression that can be expected.
Actually, Sky does some pretty altitude training year-roound and training round. they do motor-pacing, hill climbing on high altitude. occasionally some TT as well.
May be a daft question, but could you have not done the intervals on the turbo aswell? Or is the recovery between efforts, just too hard at altitude?(guessing by the look on Joe's face/pacing description)
Hats off to Joe for the effort and Tom for the training plan and encouragement. Nice anecdotal demonstration, although it looks like it would take real dedication (to wear the mask, if nothing else) and hurt like hell.
Great video! Definitely think there are benefits to training at altitude. However is it worth it if you take into account the cost? How much would it cost?
I grew up at sea level in Puerto Rico. When I was training for the Central America and Caribbean high school track and field championships in 2009 (that were hosted in altitud in Mexico) I bought a snorkeling pipe cut out the mouth piece and used it 2-3 times a week to do workouts while breathing through it. It was dirt cheap, not scientific at all and super dreadful. But it got the job done in restricting the ammount of air (thus oxigen) i could breath while working out. I still blew up like a mofo and ran 40 seconds slower than my PR fo the 3k so i cant say it worked lol but it was the best idea I had that I could afford. Maybe it goes to show that its not as simple as just restricting the amount of air u breath
What i replied above to a similar comment. ..... I grew up at sea level in Puerto Rico. When I was training for the Central America and Caribbean high school track and field championships in 2009 (that were hosted in altitud in Mexico) I bought a snorkeling pipe cut out the mouth piece and used it 2-3 times a week to do workouts while breathing through it. It was dirt cheap, not scientific at all and super dreadful. But it got the job done in restricting the ammount of air (thus oxigen) i could breath while working out. I still blew up like a MoFo and ran 40 seconds slower than my PR for the 3k so i cant say it worked lol but it was the best idea I had that I could afford. Maybe it goes to show that its not as simple as just restricting the amount of air u breath, or maybe we should have more ppl try it for longer period of time to see if there are any measurable differences.
You'll be pleased to know that there'll be a Jack Luke video going up some time tomorrow. Regrettably, it will not include scenes of him hurting himself during an FTP test.
I would have loved to see a "before and after" graph. It would then be easier for us, your viewers, to recognize what you mean. If you supplied a graph we could also come to an agreement easier. ....."Data is King" Nice Video p:)
It definitely wouldn't stand up as hard science, as Joe suggests at the end of the video, but it would have been interesting to have a control rider of similar ability go through the same training plan, without the hypoxia, to see how their performance compared.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Brilliant video. Really enjoyed that, even as a picky exercise physiologist I'd have to say you presented the "study" really well :)
If you continue your hypoxic training could you, please, get a blood test? It is very interesting whether your red blood cell count (RBC) and hemoglobin level (HGB) will change.
If these two parameters rise (they usually rise as a body's compensatory response to chronic hypoxaemia, for example, in highlanders), you could definitely say that your performance improvement is due to your hypoxic training sessions. If your performance will improve further, but these parameters are relatively stable, you could be certain that all the benefits were a result of new training schedule.
People will gladly pay for placebo.
@@stevengr4 If it makes you faster it a win win.
This is actually really interesting. I happen to live at 2600meters over the sea level. I regularly go upwards of 3300m. On the rare occasion when I get closer to sea level, I feel immediately stronger and for longer periods of time. Then again, it is also more difficult to cut through the air. Now, i train without a power meter, so my experience is entirely one of feel, and not exact science, but the difference is definitely there.
On a side note: Joe looks remarkably similar to Elijah Wood doesn’t he?
Pretty much all the scientific literature/meta-analysis are categoric on it : you don't get any long term benefits or physiological adaptations by training high. The thing that would be interesting is to incorporate blood work analysis before and after, because since they don't do it, there is now way of knowing if you get true physiological benefits. The method of the "study" is weak, but still, very interesting for the public.
but nice video ! very well explain and I like the fact that Joe stayed sceptical and realistic on his experience.
I'd suggest the study was very unscientific so that the zero benefit from this training was not shown up.
That’s an insane watts/kg!!!
Damn Joe, those are some seriously impressive numbers!
Working without oxygen like this, does that not simply amount to doing more anaerobic work, period? I think it is generally understood that 6 weeks is basically the period during which anaerobic gains can be maximized, without much improvement to be expected beyond six weeks. Could that be the source of Joe's improvement?
Super interesting content! Well-presented.
Kudos for your new power gains!
SWEET! i love this kind of experimental stuff!
would be interesting if it could be controlled by something like zwift, the higher up the mountain you go, the less oxygen you get, add in the kicker climb and it's the ultimate indoor climbing training
Only 3x1hr sessions per week? (did not sleep in the tent at night?)
well done video, really glad you guys are not immediately jumping on a hype train for new training methods and keeping a skeptical eye on scientifically unproven methods. I'd be curious as to know how much the psychological aspect plays a role in results as well. I'd also be interested in learning about long term benefits and dangers of this sort of training.
Keep up the good work guys!
Great video. Well done.
What was his protocol of altitude training?
That's an impressive FTP increase in just 6 weeks!
It's a shame they don't have research backing up their claims because a permanent physiological adaptation such as increase in mitochondrial density would be amazing. But IMO it seems more likely, just like with time at altitude, it's a temporary gain caused by a higher red blood cell count.
What do you think Joe?
it's normal they don't have research to back of their claims. Since the litterature is clear on it : there is no permanent/long term physiological benefits or adaptations by training high.
So it’s not much of an increase in hemoglobin, I work at a place similar to this in Calgary Canada. One of the reasons we see such good results is simply when as you train at altitude you get higher oxidative stress at any given workload. So that translates to increased stress on the energy systems but less stress on the muscular systems therefore you can recover faster, and the quality of the sea level workouts can be better. Or that you get the extra stress on the oxidative system that are just harder to reach at training at sea level. Exact mechanism at work here is being studied a lot right now, I’m not an expert yet compared to others out there but we know it shows results. And there is a ton of other applications to this type of training.
Yeah unfortunately the evidence is 'lacking' at best, with LHTL having a stronger argument of the two - 1. Lundby C, Millet GP, Calbet JA, Bärtsch P, Subudhi AW. Does “altitude training” increase exercise performance in elite athletes? Br J Sports Med. 2012;46(11):792-795. doi:10.1136/bjsports-2012-091231.
That's a good theory John, I hope to see some evidence to support it soon!
That's interesting. I'd be keen to hear more about this. What is the center you work for in Calgary?
I'd have searched for altitude training in the journal of applied physiology and not have bothered. Sleep high, train low has been well established.
Exactly, and if training high, only do very short hard anaerobic efforts. That's to negate the lack of oxygen, as vo2 efforts aren't effective. So then, what's the point lol
What was the training protocol?
Excellent video and information. Can you share that awesome 6 week training plan?
Very interesting. Not really sure about this, but power based TSS is expected to drop if you are 'training at altitude.' TSS doesn't factor altitude, unless you've reset your FTP to the altitude test value, but then again I'm not sure if thats very precise if you are training simultaneously outdoors and at simulated altitude. hrTSS might be interesting to look at.
Comparing blood markers before and after the training plan would have ideal.
great video! please do more like this!
Great Video Joe! Machine!!!
very interesting and well done on those numbers. As cyclist we tend to always want to be in the best form to cycle but something very interesting that i came across is that everyone over looks the condition of theirs hearts. Would be interesting to see what effect this type of training has on your heart muscles. ECG and just a Echocardiogram to see if there is any abnormalities or thickening of the heart muscle and what happens to your resting heart rate. We all like to push the limit but never think of the damage we do to our hearts.
What was you're previous 20min record? We don't know how fit you were related to you're previous record when started the six week program. That will probably give a better idea of the progression that can be expected.
Actually, Sky does some pretty altitude training year-roound and training round. they do motor-pacing, hill climbing on high altitude. occasionally some TT as well.
Very interesting!
I wonder though how much would you have been able to improve further if you carried on for another 6 weeks?
What about those breathing masks in amazon? They reduce oxygen intake for 20 bucks. Will it work as well?
They restrict your breathing. They don't reduce the amount of oxygen in the air you breathe.
Try this again but doing no structured training
on another topic how do you keep a near 5watt/kg fitness with your "normal" training and job?
why not do a ramp test and remove the pacing variable?
May be a daft question, but could you have not done the intervals on the turbo aswell? Or is the recovery between efforts, just too hard at altitude?(guessing by the look on Joe's face/pacing description)
Hats off to Joe for the effort and Tom for the training plan and encouragement.
Nice anecdotal demonstration, although it looks like it would take real dedication (to wear the mask, if nothing else) and hurt like hell.
How long can you hang onto those power numbers after stopping training with the generator (keeping you normal training volume)?
How much is that thing?
Great video! Definitely think there are benefits to training at altitude. However is it worth it if you take into account the cost? How much would it cost?
Spend the money on a good coach, train regularly. Done
So is there a less expensive way to train at altitude? Or could you simulate it by just restricting oxygen?
Lots of MMA fighters and boxers (including Anthony Joshua) use altitude masks: altitude-mask.com/
I grew up at sea level in Puerto Rico. When I was training for the Central America and Caribbean high school track and field championships in 2009 (that were hosted in altitud in Mexico) I bought a snorkeling pipe cut out the mouth piece and used it 2-3 times a week to do workouts while breathing through it. It was dirt cheap, not scientific at all and super dreadful. But it got the job done in restricting the ammount of air (thus oxigen) i could breath while working out. I still blew up like a mofo and ran 40 seconds slower than my PR fo the 3k so i cant say it worked lol but it was the best idea I had that I could afford. Maybe it goes to show that its not as simple as just restricting the amount of air u breath
Does the Training Mask or restricted-air training replicate this experience?
What i replied above to a similar comment. ..... I grew up at sea level in Puerto Rico. When I was training for the Central America and Caribbean high school track and field championships in 2009 (that were hosted in altitud in Mexico) I bought a snorkeling pipe cut out the mouth piece and used it 2-3 times a week to do workouts while breathing through it. It was dirt cheap, not scientific at all and super dreadful. But it got the job done in restricting the ammount of air (thus oxigen) i could breath while working out. I still blew up like a MoFo and ran 40 seconds slower than my PR for the 3k so i cant say it worked lol but it was the best idea I had that I could afford. Maybe it goes to show that its not as simple as just restricting the amount of air u breath, or maybe we should have more ppl try it for longer period of time to see if there are any measurable differences.
Where is Jacke Luke?I want to see his video.
You'll be pleased to know that there'll be a Jack Luke video going up some time tomorrow. Regrettably, it will not include scenes of him hurting himself during an FTP test.
Joe you look younger. Maybe that altitude training is good after all ;)
Haha, the last two years have aged me terribly! Thanks for watching, Joe.
@@bikeradar my mistake, I thought this video was out our yesterday. Oops...
so best to live at 1500m :D i reckon some weight training would increase your own ftp ;)
No comments... :-(
what's up with that red wire at 11:34 ? heheehehehehehe
5:40 "no one cared who I was until I put on the mask"
Live at altitude train lower
I would have loved to see a "before and after" graph. It would then be easier for us, your viewers, to recognize what you mean. If you supplied a graph we could also come to an agreement easier. ....."Data is King" Nice Video p:)
I suspect you improved because your new trainer pushed you harder than usual.
It definitely wouldn't stand up as hard science, as Joe suggests at the end of the video, but it would have been interesting to have a control rider of similar ability go through the same training plan, without the hypoxia, to see how their performance compared.
I guess it's good for training for high altitude events. Doing it for extra gains is some dumb shit. Live high train low
Great neckbeard.
Bane
Waste of money, consistent training is the key.
Why the neck beard?