Is Star Trek's Mirror Universe Actually Worth Revisiting?
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
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▶Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction
01:49 - "Mirror, Mirror"
06:52 - The Mirror Universe in Novels and Comics
11:22 - The Mirror Universe on Deep Space Nine
16:22 - Enterprise: "In a Mirror, Darkly"
20:06 - The Mirror Universe on Discovery
23:40 - The Problem with Revisiting the Mirror Universe
27:00 - Sheer Desperation in the Face of Total Creative Bankruptcy
30:24 - Shoutouts, Plugs and Announcements
#startrek #startrektheoriginalseries #startrekdiscovery #startrekenterprise #startrekdeepspacenine - Розваги
Aren't you ignoring the part in Through the Looking Glass where Captain Sisko gets some closure and character development by having to deal with the Mirror Jennifer Sisko? That made the episode worth it and he probably would not have been open to a relationship with Cassidy Yates without having gone through that
Similar with Kira and mirror Bareil. I felt that relationship was useful in helping Kira complete a grieving process as well as was a nice illustration of different modes of religioisity e.g. mirror Bareil & Bareil were both believers in the Prophets but what they did with this metaphysical belief in terms of their lives was quite different..
However, I think Steve's point still holds. I like what mirror Jennifer & mirror Bareil due for Sisko & Kira's characters BUT for both characters--and the mirror Jennifer character in particular--the fact that they come from the previously established mirror universe is irrelevant to the character role they play. Indeed, mirror Jennifer doesn't really seem to function as a mirror counterpart in that she's pretty similar to Jennifer in terms of her basic goodness.
Ultimately, like Steve, I don't really care for the mirror universe episodes in DS9. I like original TOS episode & I like the Enterprise episodes because they are so over the top that they are funny. Humor is also why I kinda like mirror Worf & mirror Kira. However, DS9 & Discovery have the problem that they also seem to want to take the concept seriously & have us care about the injustices faced by human slaves (in the DS9 episodes) or non-human animals (in Discovery episodes) but if you take the mirror universe seriously you are confronted with an absolutely monstrously evil dystopian universe which makes comedy hard but comedy is what made the original TOS episode kinda fun.
So yeah, I'm just not interested in the mirror universe. There are better avenues for comedy in Trek & while there is power is showing the value of goodness in the face of overwhelming evil & adversity, I don't think we need mirror counterparts to do that well. Just watch the Dominion War arc in DS9 or the president Clark storyline in Babylon 5.
@@conrad4852 agree, O’Brien being basically just as decent changes the concept too. Not necessarily in a bad way, but it’s definitely a different concept.
I agree about the over the top episodes too, and I liked their Disco Season 3 instalment because it was more intense, sexier, and trashier. It didn’t try to play it seriously like Disco S1 did. Although I don’t think it was necessary or good for the overall plot in that season, much like with Enterprise, but on their own I like those.
Its a shame Kassidy Yates was such an atrocious character, easily the worst of DS9, and just poorly acted. They went from ‘hey i like baseball, you too’ to instantly moving in together and in-love, with no chemistry, no development, no progression, and quickly just became some bickering couple, where you end up disliking Kassidy becuz obviously we know Sisko better and we’ve seen no justification or build-up to their relationship
You think Sisko would have gotten stuck with his dead wife for all eternity and never moving through his loss to find another partner?
@GuineaPigEveryday I just think their relationship was toxic at best. She was a dick to him a lot. She blew up really tiny things and was very dishonest and USED HIM. In for the cause she was smuggling things to the Maquis and saying that it was for a Tholian Plague or whatever, and said went right to Sisko to get her search sped up so she could go and continue aiding terrorists was pretty horrible. Like she came back and was willingly arrested but... frankly if anyone ever used me like she used Sisko I'd leave them with no second thought. This is just a 20ish year old show though I'm probably reading too deep into it.
I also liked the fact that in Voyager the closest they came to the Mirror Universe was when the Doctor's backup version was found and he has to correct the history from a society who viewed Voyager as a warship.
Well, it is a warship, but with a little makeup
I don't know about Voyager. The show was uneven, because the writing was mediocre. "Threshold".
@@nathanieldaiken1064 I don't know...the premise of Threshold concerning the warp barrier - the sci-fi techno stuff was fine, Tom's "evolution" (?) into those lizard things at the end spoilt it.
I would laugh my butt off if, canonically, it was revealed that the mirror version of that episode involved the mirror version of the Doctor doing the same thing, except that the planets society remembers Voyager as a peaceful exploratory vessel instead of a warship 😂
I came here to say this. I think it's also one of the better "Anti-matter Universe" episodes in Trek because of it. I think it also goes over the way history can be written accurately and be wrong. And it's like not a bad episode storywise.
I rather enjoyed "In A Mirror Darkly", but that's partly for the hilarious moment in the opening in which Zefram Cochrane just shoots the Vulcan with a shotgun. Easily earned an 8/10 just for that. The rest of the two-parter was a bit interesting (and I thought it was better written than too many Enterprise episodes), but it is just funny "what if" fluff. I also remember enjoying "Dark Mirror" when I read it, but more or less as "I like TNG stuff, so it was good, now I'm gonna re-read a book about Worf in Starfleet Academy".
I don’t think it’s fluff. It comes right before the big Terra Prima storyline. I see it as a spotlight on where that ideology goes.
@paul scott: I feel like you put more thought into that then the writers did.
I love In A Mirror, Darkly.
Steve just hates fun.
To me, Crossover, In A Mirror, Darkly and Mirror, Mirror are (in that order) the trifecta of Mirror Universe episodes.
Also, Through The Looking Glass is pretty good, too.
The rest are some combination of "shit with good moments" and just "shit."
@@paulscott1792 To me, if was more so a final love letter to the Star Trek franchise for the writers since they expected for this to be the last series/season for Star Trek ever again. The episode arrangement does play nicely with the Terra Prime story line.
Scott Bakula was really hamming it up with his overacting in this episode. Maybe a little too much.
The relationship between the two Kyra characters was epic writing. The mirror Kyra's fascination with "herself" was delightful.
Colonel Kira: I want a Colonel's Woman that understands me.
I read Spock being the "good guy" in both universes as a statement that cooperation and compassion are actually not just the moral thing to do, but the objectively correct thing to do.
If you think about it carefully, being a good person makes sense. Spock does, so he is.
This sentiment is one of the most Star Trek things ever, and I love it. It helps that I 100% agree with it. Selfishness (not to mention cruelty) only *looks* like the rational thing to do to people who don't pay attention.
(I'll ignore comic-book Spock not making that decision, because continuity doesn't matter to me in this case and I only watched the TV series)
Well, when Kirk convinced Spock to consider taking over he did so by appealing to the Vulcan side of his. Not human compassion but Vulcan logic. So that very much checks out.
The Enterprise Mirror episodes are some of my favorites just because we get to see the actors stretch their range a bit. Mirror Archer is a fantastic character only because you can tell Bakula was having a great time chewing up the scenery. They are my favorite part of the series to be honest.
Ok you've sold me, I always want to see Scotty chewing up the scenery
Lets be honest, there’s also plenty fans who show up for those episodes for two other reasons; T’Pol and especially Hoshi. The latter for the obvious reasons but also because she’s super fun and wacky in the role, really getting to chew the scenery and over-act the way she never gets to as Hoshi
I admit mirror Yoshi checked all my boxes. However, the opening sequence of mirror “Enterprise” was really incredible. Archer was in the best form ever.
For a long time (long before Discovery did it with Lorca) I've thought it would have been hilarious if we'd learned, upon discovery of 'Tom' Riker, that they weren't one person split by transporter accident, but that one of them was the Mirror Universe version, but the transporter wiped and copied memory engrams or something. Then on further looking, it turns out that Will is the mirror double, and it was latent memories that cause him to grow the beard! That would have been pretty funny back in the day.
Hard disagree on "In a Mirror Darkly." I love those two episodes. They are fun, over the top, campy in all the right places. Everything a good Mirror Universe episode should be.
Yep, the two parter was good fun and obviously with the redone intro and credits, the old sets and uniforms and weapons, they had a lot of heart doing it.
And it proved the original Enterprise looked great with modern effects.
I think Voyager could have had an interesting mirror universe in it. Picture this, Voyager is travelling through Borg space and finds itself stuck, dead ahead is a region of impassably dense Borg activity that it would take too long for the ship to safely circumnavigate, so they hide out in an asteroid field while they explore their options. Torres is charged with scouring through old Starfleet records and has a spark of inspiration when she reads the report of NCC-1701's first encounter with the mirror universe, and realises she can magnify the phenomenon and transport Voyager itself into the mirror universe, where they can take their chances with whatever they find there over their own universe's Borg threat. Once they cross over, as a twist they encounter a benevolent Borg Co-operative, who use their cybernetic technology to render aid across the galaxy. The mirror Borg here are so unambiguously morally good, that it's our Voyager who act as the agents of (relatively) amoral chaos.
I sometimes wonder what the Borg would have been like in the Mirror Universe. Thanks for beating me to the comment.
Stop whatever you're doing and write that Voyager noveL! I'm not a big fan of the whole Mirror Universe thing but this is one I'd read or watch!!
The tough part of a benevolent Borg would be that to increase their …uh… presence necessarily involves assimilation. I figure the Borg assimilate populations teetering on the edge of death thanks to the merciless empire’s program of pushing populations to that edge just because… well, they’re merciless an love to watch agony in progress. I guess I like to think only the reverse-Borg could be really interesting- and, whew, hard to write.
The Voyager episode "Living witness" was as close to a mirror Voyager we got on TV
@@papadopp3870There already is a Borg Cooperative whose members retain their individual personalities while still sharing memorie/knowledge through the hive-mind link. It could just work like that, and they only assimilate people with consent.
I always figured they made these more for the actors as a kind of stress relief. A kind of "casual Friday" for them once a season.
From the standpoint of the writers and actors, it's easy to see the appeal of doing some stories that are basically disconnected from the rest of the show and enable the cast to play different characters.
From hearing actors in interviews over decades, I imagine it goes something like...
writers and producers: "How do you feel about playing Sisko as a thoroughly evil character?"
Brookes: "Are you kidding? Bring it on!"
Actors love to "stretch" themselves, and fear being typecast. A "Mirror" roles kills both those birds with one stone
@@Neil070 ...and that's why we got Spiner playing Lore and Dr. Soong, everyone in Barclay's holodeck fantasies, Thomas Riker, etc. The desire to shake up the status quo and stretch their skills a bit makes total sense to me.
"Spock!!!, you green blooded pointed eared ........, HOW DARE YOU THROW ME IN THE BRIG!!!!".
Spock prime: " That felt very ........refreshing."
After tossing mirror McCoy in the brig.
Could you see Spock tossing mirror Kirk , McCoy , Scotty, and Uhura in the brig?.
The Mirror Universe arc was my favorite part of Discovery's first season. It gave us some fantastic character development for Burnham and her relationships with the rest of the crew, and it gave Tilly a chance to really come into her own. Meanwhile, the Lorca twist was amazing because it was set up so well. From the beginning, he had that ruthless pragmatism that just felt wrong for a Starfleet captain. But we also had time to get used to him and see him the way his crew sees him. So just when you're starting to appreciate the guy, bam, it snaps you back to all the moments you forgot about and recontextualizes everything you thought you knew about him. And you can see all that in Burnham too! Perfectly executed IMO.
Couldn’t agree more. Discovery mirror universe was my favorite. Getting to see the emperor and her ship, getting to see the rebellion that’s trying to survive the oppression… the mirror universe fundamentally left its mark on the prime universe.
See, now I'm wondering if Mirror Spock decided to NOT have a beard at the same time that Prime Spock DID have one during Discovery.
I made a comment above, about the "Law of Conservation of Beards"
My favorite part of DS9's MU episodes was Rom trying to make sense of things, reflecting the viewers coming to the realization that this evil parallel universe is not 100 percent Opposite Land. "Their Captain O'Brien seems as nice as our Chief O'Brien..."
Everything Rom does is awesome. He's just such a fantastic character.
@@manjackson2772 O'Brien Must Suffer is not a universal constant...
...It's a multiversal constant.
This is a momentous occasion: the first time Steve has ever mentioned Voyager in an entirely positive manner.
They ruined The Borg, they arguably ruined Q, but at least they left the mirrorverse alone.
Absolutely love the commitment to the gag!!! "I don't like this fan service shit" immediately inserts his own version of fan service. I did enjoy the STE Mirror Episodes, but I can understand how people didn't. Loved the topic.
I’ve never been comfortable with the existence of evil counterparts in a universe where murder is a constant requirement. Somewhere in their past too many ancestors would have been eliminated or else affected by the non-existence of someone else. In order to arrive at exact counterparts it would mean that both universes are subject to predestination.
Indeed.
This glaring illogic does undermine any credibility the mirrorverse has as a "real place" within the fiction.
Or if the histories were identical, up to a relatively recent point.
It operates on the same principle that Worf had in Parallels. He never went to a universe where he wasn't on the Enterprise or wasn't still alive. Just have to assume there is no Mirror Universe but a collection of very similar universes that certain characters can only interact with when they are sufficiently similar (as in they are still alive or were recently enough) to allow for it. Just like we saw the Prime had numerous mostly similar universes in Parallels even though most realistically ought to have had no Worf (think of all the things that allowed for this Klingon to be officer on this particular ship), or no Enterprise, or no Starfleet, or no humans, or no space as we know it.
I was going to say something similar, and it's part of the reason why the Mirror Universe makes less sense the more Star Trek goes back to it. As a one-off in an episodic series of morality plays? Sure, it works fine. I disagree with Steve about the entertainment value of the DS9 episodes, because it's fun enough to watch the cast ham it up as wildly different characters. But it doesn't take long before you can't help but think of how little sense it makes that with at least hundreds of years of history being different in the galactic neighborhood, all of the same people are somehow born, all of the same technology is invented with the same appearance, all of the names are the same for the vessels which have the same basic design as their Prime counterparts.
And then when you get to Discovery it's revealed that the whole Mirror Universe is literally darker than the Prime universe. The laws of physics are slightly different there and yet somehow all the beings evolved the same only with more sensitive eyes (that for some reason require direct injections into the eyeball to tolerate the light in the Prime universe). The more it's returned to, the more it's explained, the less it actually holds together as a concept.
How does the transporter change your clothes while beaming to the mirror universe?.
2 minutes in....you MUST admit that the Mirror Universe did miracles for the theme song of Enterprise. Hopefully, you go on to mention this later in the video. Love your work!
Just imagine how atrocious the Enterprise theme song would benin the mirror universe. #shudder
Discovery didn't do their first mirror universe episodes just to do them, they did serve a purpose. While I can agree that the later mirror episodes don't really do anything but give everyone a chance to play around, the first season mirror episodes are conceptually brilliant. It actually bothers me a little that the whole situation with Lorca doesn't really get more than a couple passing references afterwards; they learn to trust Pike and then we kind of forget Lorca was even there. Rewatching the first season after knowing who he really is gives the whole thing a much more interesting tone. Everything from how he relates to Burnham to his interactions with Admiral Cornwell take on a new meaning. His actions are no longer that of an honorable Starfleet officer tainted and scarred by war, they're a calculated manipulation to further his cause. It's a good concept, it really just needed to be paced better.
While Voyager never visited the Mirror Universe, there was a Mirror Universe-like episode. In "Living Witness", the planet's history depicted Janeway & crew as evil and we see them acting in the same way as their Mirror Universe counterparts would have.
I usually agree with you on most topics but Enterprise Darkly episodes were really great! The episodes actually got me to watch Enterprise all the way through. The second episode was especially spectacular. Perhaps because this is where I started off with enterprise, it made a difference in my opinion.
I think Enterprise’s mirror-universe 2-parter is one of the more creative things they did. Some of their best work.
People tend to be critical of Enterprise but having recently re-watched it, I think it is underrated. Okay, it is a bit spotty but the good episodes are REALLY good and Scot Bakula is my favourite actor to play the Enterprise skipper. He starts off as an idealistic explorer and transitions during the Xindi episodes into a cynical, ruthless war leader - and he knows this and hates it.
Outstanding performance of a character arc that I found fascinating and new for Star Trek.
The Defiant was the crossover character in "In a Mirror, Darkly"! Also, my view on this is so different. I really am interested in the mirror universe, and I loved this two-parter most of all. The mirror universe forms a fascinating nature-vs-nurture narrative for me. Could Sisko and all the others have become as unhinged as their counterparts appear to be had their circumstances been reversed? Are we all just a few skipped meals from brutal and barbaric behavior? History would say yes. The mirror universe can be seen as an exploration of this concept. If our heroes were raised in a society like the ones shown in the mirror universe, would they be, from our universe's point of view, evil? Yes, I think they would.
My issue with the mirror universe is that its always so synchronized with the regular universe, but then a bunch of interesting stuff happens so it's obviously going to de-synchronize until the next time.
@@manjackson2772 that’s my head-canon. The reason folks always bump into mirrored situations when they cross over is that those are the points how here the universes are close enough to each other for the crossover to happen (or, alternatively, if we assume predestination, the crossover itself ripples backwards in time on either or both sides to bring the universes closer together to facilitate the crossing)
@@manjackson2772
The first time made sense to me. But having this same universe-with its diametrically opposite ethics and history-still have the same figures in it generations down the line? That breaks my suspension of disbelief.
my head canon is that these are just custom pocket universes with the appearance of a history similar to "remember me" and shaped by the people that are trapped in them.
@@BlackCover95 My head canon is that there are an infinite number of mirror universes...just as there are a number of "Prime universes." And it just happens to allow for crossovers because these are the ones that against all logic still remain similar enough. Just like Worf never went to a parallel universe where he served on a ship that wasn't the Enterprise...or heck where he wasn't still alive.
@@BlackCover95 I put suspension of disbelief away when, in "Mirror, Mirror", the Prime landing party materialize on the ISS Enterprise all wearing the uniforms of the Mirror landing party. And vice versa. It was at that exact point the MU stopped making any kind of sense. So it's better to set aside all logical considerations and just embrace the madness.
What I'd like to see, is a mirror take on Prodigy, with the twist being that the lives of the characters are actually BETTER in the mirror universe. So much better that it becomes a trolley problem for the heroes. Given the love the writers have for trek history, I would be more surprised if they didn't do this.
i always wanted a reverse dominion war where the dominion is a federation like nation come to save the alpha quadrant from the alliance
As soon as they enter the other universe they all instantly get goatees and realize they have had it rough
@@sword4005 🤣🤣 The Hirogen are here to help!
JUST IMAGINE A KLINGON CARDASSIAN RESISTANCE AGAINST BASHIR IMPERIUM AND HIS DOMINIOS ALLIES, STEALING THE PROTO STAR AND ACCIDENTLY CAME 2 NORMAL UNIVERSE
The DS9 mirror universe episodes were an excuse to have new cast members play fun mirror versions of the characters, and I think they did a good job of that.
I do not get the appeal of reading books or comics using the mirror universe though. You're right, plot is not the strength there. Enterprise I thought was fun too, and that theme song was the best Enterprise theme song by far.
13:00 ... This, in my opinion, is the true appeal of these episodes. It is great fun watching the cast ham it up to such a wondrous level.
I just want them to go to other parallel universes that are not the Mirror Universe for once just to see the crazy things they could come up with.
It would have been an interesting thing to do with the _Discovery_ after it’s final big jump it pops out next to the _Enterprise_ - with NCC-1701-A marked on the saucer - and receive a hail and see Chris Pine’s Kirk pop up on the view screen and the episode cuts to the credits after he introduces himself.
Didn't voyager do that with species 8472?
Worth mentioning: "The Fairest Of Them All." This was the fan-made *sequel* episode to "Mirror Mirror" made especially for UA-cam, and considered to be one of the most well-produced and highest quality fan-made series of all. In this episode, Mirror Spock goes full-blown renegade, abandoning the Empire and embracing the advice of Goody-Goody Prime Universe Kirk. Look up "Star Trek Continues" here on UA-cam to find this episode and several others, all well worth watching. (Behind-the-scenes gossip: the guy who played Kirk in this series turned out to be a jerk in real life, to put it mildly; but that doesn't detract from the quality of this UA-cam series.)
I just said the same - you beat me to it by a month. 😁👍
There was one novel thing Discovery did with the Mirror Universe - they used it to make a moral tale that only space Nazi's would destroy the environment for short term gain.
One of those subtle allegories Star Trek is known for
The one thing I have never understood about the mirror universe is... How do all the same parents and grandparents and great grandparents and so on, end up together in the mirror universe as in ours? That means that not only does everyone live on the correct planets, but they "mate" on the exact same days. Even Spock somehow his mother a terran falls for what is now a slave vulcan dude. And if that wasn't enough... it stays going with everyone mating at the same time to end up with our heroes from later franchises.
Somehow no one in the mirror universe, which is well known for imprisoning and executing people, never prematurely kills any of the heroes family tree.
Yes! I commented on how unlikely it is that things are pretty much the same with the same people on the same ship but you put it much better and more specifically.
Not always, necessarily. Jake Sisko doesn't exist in the mirror universe, for example.
At least in "Mirror, Mirror", this point doesn't actually matter, because the way they get to the other universe relies on the existence of duplicates with which to switch. One could imagine a bunch of other alternate universe Enterprises beaming their crews through the ion storm, but because they don't have just the right crew members, or aren't there at just the right time, they aren't the ones that get switched with the prime crew. The real strange thing is that the same mirror universe, including the past meetings between the two, keeps meeting up with the same prime universe, rather than it being a different alternate every time.
there is no Mirror Burnham ... and im sure others dont exist as well
I think they just knew it didn’t make sense and decided to do it anyway
Honestly I really really really love the two-parter in Discovery S3. Michelle Yeoh gives her best performance of the series. If it weren't for these episodes I might not have seen Everything Everywhere All At Once.
I absolutely love the part in the last DS9 mirror episode when Rom and Quark are carrying a cloaked cloaking device down the corridor and they almost get busted by Sisko and Martok 😂
I like the “Shattered Mirrorverse” from DS9! They went somewhere with the universe aside from just more evil doubles.
For Discovery i can say at least that Mirror Georgiou was maybe my favorite character and i'm really sad she is no longer in the show.
She was amazing! Such inner strength and self awareness. And her acerbic wit!
I was happy to hear about the Mirror Georgiou movie being announced but then the writer´s strike happened and now its most likely going to be delayed by years in the most optimistic scenario.
One of my favorite "mirror" episodes doesn't have anything to do with the mirror universe. It's Living Witness from Voyager. Seeing Janeway as a cold evil U-boat captain and the Doctor as a torture-bot was fun, and it pulled off the "bad version" gimmick in a unique way. It helped that the episode didn't rely too much on the action of the evil versions but had the focus primarily on the real Doctor and the people who were trying to tell the story of Voyager.
That being said it still didn't carry the same weight because it was set hundreds of years in the future with an alternate backup Doctor, but still. It was fun.
Re: Season One Disco mirror episodes, exactly. The reason you enjoy a mirror universe episode is to watch the actors have fun doing something else for a bit...but if you don't already know them, that falls flat. It was a weird choice.
I have done Star Trek RPGs for a long time now, and whenever a plotline for our sim goes to the Mirror Universe, I like making a character who is a more-scared and weaker version of my prime character, rather than the typical super-aggressive counterpart. I wish Star Trek would do more like that, or show a mirror/parallel universe where the galaxy is much more different (ie: like the Riker from "Parallels" where the Borg have taken over, or one where Humanity is more of a subjective species to, say, Romulans).
Picard anyone?
and Wesley Crusher being the Emporer in STO, it's worth it
Like they did with O’Brien!
Fingers crossed we get Mirror Steve Trek Actually at the beginning of April.
Also I feel like asking for more of the joke shows how badly I missed the point.
Nicely done! I hope we run into Mirror Steve again, but that might go against the argument!
I KNEW it was coming, and was not disappointed. Well done, Steve. Well done.
In Doctor Who we had one mirror universe story totally lifted from Star Trek called Inferno. Most of the story has a climate activist message, but another part of it is a Mirror Universe story where the 3rd Doctor ends up in an (even more) fascist parallel of Britain.
In that, the Brigadier is reintroduced as the villainous Brigade Leader, and rather than give him a goatee, they shaved off his moustache and gave him an eyepatch.
Inferno is schlocky in parts (the primords are typically lame Dr Who monsters) but it's a neat story
@@alanpennie8013 yeah felt like they just needed a monster because sadly there is an awful lot of dragging out the dialogue scenes which begins to get tedious. I think the Primords were introduced just to give the story more from a visual perspective, and to increase the threat. For me the story doesn't really get off on its feet until the parallel universe plotline.
I think DS9 did toooo many Mirror Universe episodes. Mostly because the idea of it became even sillier. In DS9 it was like jumping on a bus to the town over there.
But I kinda loved ‘In a Mirror Darkly’ because it was fun to see a mirror universe episode completely in the mirror universe without all the ‘why the universes are crossing over pseudo science’.
I actually find the Mirror Universe stories fun. I've had to wonder tho if there is some sort of quantum entanglement between the universes to keep them synced. If a Red Shirt dies on an away mission in the PU (Prime Universe), does that mean his double in the MU (Mirror Universe) has died as a result of the Agonizer booth or assassination, or he WILL die from something to keep the universes aligned? Or vice-versa? If someone is killed in the MU, is their fate sealed in the PU? There must be something keeping things aligned or the spiral of changes from a death in one universe could create exponential changes compared to the universe where that person didn't die (having kids that only exist in one universe, impacting relationships or co-workers, taking a job that someone else would have to fill in the other universe, etc). Sure, it's silly, but it's kind of fun to consider.
I think an opportunity the Mirror Universe offers for repeat use is the mirror symbolism itself. The alternate characters can be evil but reflect qualities that the prime characters have in ways that aren't just superficial. My favorite part in the original episode is how mirror Spock is able to avoid the over the top aspect of his portrayel which creates an interesting take for him in the evil universe. You can have the characters acting different but give the prime versions a reason to reflect on what they witnessed so it serves for more than just a gag.
I like to think that the "Mirror Universe" is the exact 180° antithesis of the Prime Universe, out of the infinite universes a la TNG's "Parallels" episode.
I like the Enterprise In A Mirror, Darkly. It’s hilarious! Shakespeare is just as grim everywhere.
And come on, while Discovery is kind of a bad show, I loved Tilly’s “if you greeted me that way I’d cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots.” Best line from Discovery!
The events of Terra Firma are NOT irrelevant to the mirror OR prime universes. The sandbox let Emperor Georgiou explore who she had become. She still thought she was unchanged by living in the prime universe; the sandbox experience made her realize that she HAD changed. I don't think they needed to "establish" that - we as the audience already knew it. But Georgiou did not. This was her chance to learn how much she'd grown. Regardless, my husband & I enjoy the mirror universe episodes. Different strokes. :)
One take on the concept I really enjoyed was the recent IDW comics one shot "Hell's Mirror", which explores the events of what happens when the mirror Enterprise finds the Botany Bay.
Khan and his followers are treated completely true to their characters as they were frozen before the "point of divergence" in the two timelines.
Which leads to an interesting scenario where Khan is doing his usual megalomaniacal "take over everything" schtick but this time his argument has a lot more weight. He openly laments the works of culture and art that Humanity has just abandoned in the Mirror universe and is trying to recruit Kirk to his cause by showing him all the things humanity created before the Empire.
Would love to see the fall of the Terran Empire and the rise of the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance on screen.
I generally skip the mirror episodes when I’m rewatching, but I actually don’t hate the ones on DISCO, and maybe that’s because there seemed to be (somewhat) more impact to the Prime universe because of Georgio and Lorca (and maybe it was just the shock factor on the first watch and I haven’t rewatched DISCO). What I really wish is that they would do some continuity with Tilly. There were moments when Tilly would need to be tough (or at least fake it) and I wanted a moment of her muttering “be Killy, not Tilly” or something to get herself into the part.
Edit: I hadn’t fininshed watching when I commented and had COMPLETELY blocked out the S3 episodes. I don’t hate the S1 DISCO arc is what I meant.
I agree, I liked the S1 DISCO mirror universe episodes because the Lorca twist was good and meshed with the themes of the season.
The S3 mirror episodes were just frustrating because they were exemplary of the problem I had with S3 episodes: the sidestory either overstayed its welcome, or was not developed upon enough. I would have greatly preferred the mirror universe episodes be halved so that we could get more of Unification III instead.
@@Enforcer6k or just missing entirely and Carl sent her away quickly!
I’d always considered the “growing the beard” troupe a subtle satirical inversion of the mirror universe, similar to the addition of the medium place in The Good Place.
“Growing the goatee.”
When a show abruptly changes it’s premise and kills off most of the cast, pivoting towards a radically different, darker storyline.
What immediately comes to mind are the final seasons of “Earth: Final Conflict” or “Fringe”.
I hadn't thought of a 'different take' on the mirror universe until Steve mentioned it. I always assumed it would be a joke to an extent. But thinking about how the mirror universe could be dark vs comedic I think DS9 could have done a good job with that premise. If they went to the mirror universe and the factions there easily defeated the Dominion because of how evil or authoritarian they were. It could be a look at the ends justifying the means, especially during the darkest days of the Dominion war. If it could be a struggle for some of the main cast to debate how far they were willing to go to defeat the Dominion when the alternative was losing the war. Obviously there are other ways of executing this premise besides the mirror universe, but I think showing this way could be interesting. I think about how in WW2 how the US and Germans mobilized for war in a unifying way, with one being authoritarian.
"You should be evil, it works better" is not a very Star Trek moral. Part of what makes Mirror, Mirror itself work is how much better the good Enterprise crew are than their evil counterparts at understanding and empathy - they manage to successfully (ish) impersonate their counterparts and are actually convincing to the Mirrorverse version, while in reverse it's a failure handled off screen.
Sisko already did this, in canon, with the Maquis. He also pleaded with the wormhole aliens to destroy an entire fleet; not to delay them, but total overkill.
@@WhammeWhamme And despite some fans desperate desire, the Mirror universe being more competent is not supported in canon. The Mirror universe falls behind the Prime at every opportunity despite all kinds of cheats and their lack of morals and rapacious actions. Almost like the Mirror is the literal antithesis of what Trek is about. The Terran Starfleet of the Ent-era conquered alien worlds but did so through stolen Vulcan tech and ultimately was still flying around NX's despite that tech boost a century earlier. Oh and in the process of being violently overthrown. They get the TOS-era USS Defiant as a stay of execution, and are still flying around in Connie's more than a century later with no indication from our intrepid heroes that the ISS Enterprise was markedly different (in capability) let alone more powerful than their Enterprise. The Terran Empire collapses and the rebel Terrans have to steal the plans for the DS9-era Defiant. Where an untrained crew with a single Starfleet officer (admittedly the best one to captain this knockoff) was able to take out an entire fleet of Mirror universe ships. It's almost like having a society of might makes right and insane levels of aggression isn't conducive for the contemplative study of the universe that allows the Prime Starfleet and Federation to accidentally make cosmic WMD's (Omega particles, Genesis device, Mannheim temporal experiments, etc) every few decades, let alone all their actual dedicated scientific and technical advances.
Mirror Picard: (has laryngitis)
Mirror Riker: Picard is unable to speak! I, Riker, am now ruler of all the Enterprise D!
It was in the mirror universe that we got what I think is one of the best starship battle from that era. Watching the Defiant fly close to the massive Klingon capital ship, like the most powerful mosquito in the galaxy, was mind-blowing when it came out.
I feel like there are two interesting things to do with the Mirror Universe, and both involve having more of it rather than less. The first is to have the protagonists take an active role in trying to improve things in the MU - supporting rebels, providing technology and undermining the Terran Empire's schemes. Maybe team up with sympathetic versions of some of the series's great villains, etc. This leans into the franchise's utopian ideal - Federation values would call for recognizing the humanity of even MU people, and trying to guide them away from totalitarianism (or at least reduce their capacity for evil). Of course, any progress here is vulnerable to being undone by later writers who just want to write an evil counterparts episode, but it is what it is.
The second idea is that the Federation and the Terran Empire are somewhat aware of each other - after all, "using a transporter during an ion storm" isn't that rare of a circumstance. Both governments are very careful to keep this knowledge a secret - the Federation in particular has Section 31 or whatever keeping an eye out for Mirror Universe infiltrators and covering up trans-universe crossovers. Here, the Terran Empire represents the Federation's greatest fear - the reemergence of humanity's dark impulses and lust for conquest, and they are particularly concerned that public knowledge of the MU will undermine non-human faith in the Federation. The Mirror Universe in this interpretation represents a reminder that an enlightened society cannot be permanent - the struggle between barbarism and civility, tyranny and freedom, must be waged again every generation.
For a minute, I thought Picard Season 2 was going to do something like the second one with their Confederation ("the Federation is being menaced by forces led by Mirror Picard - we need to bring regular Picard out of retirement again to fight back, since he'd have great insight into Mirror Picard's mind!") but they didn't.
I agree with your second idea.
Both universes being aware of each other would make for some good tension, and could lead to a plotline of interdimensional war, with the most prominent empire in the Mirror Universe (Terran or otherwise) mounting a full scale invasion of the Prime Universe in an attempt to conquer it, making it the first step in a potential Multidimensional campaign of conquest (which would also give the writers an opportunity to create multiple different alternate versions of the Prime Universe characters without falling into the tired "Everybody's Evil" trope again).
Agree. Very good understanding here.
And I ended up liking Picard season 2, but it was sure a letdown we didn’t get to play a little longer in the dystopia.
'Fairest of them all' episode 3 of ST Continues is one of the greatest, craziest and most exciting episodes of ST and of any show, ever. I was jumping out of my seat for half of it!
The alternate universe version of Brigadier Leftbridge Stewart actually had no facial hair but he did have a silly eyepatch. In fact everyone on set that day had a silly eyepatch on by the end of the day because Jon Pertwee's reaction to the reveal was so legendary they just had to take the piss.
I've always wondered how much inspiration the writers of Trek took from DC Comics own version of the mirror universe Earth-3, home to the Justice Lords and the heroic version of Luthor. Especially since the DC Animated shows and movies have a fun time rehashing that particular idea just as much even making an all-new alternate 'heroes are evil' universe.
Earth-3 and the Crime Syndicate of America debuted in the comics in April 1964, so I'm betting that there were at least a couple of writers who read those comics when they were new and started thinking "What if...?" 🖖😎👍
Although it was featured later, DC also featured an Earth set in the Anti-Matter Universe. One facts of the Anti-Matter Universe is that there evil ultimately wins in the end, just like good ultimately wins in the Positive-Matter Universe.
Due to this, two Justice League members (Aquaman and The Martian Manhunter) were able to take on and hold there own against The Crime Syndicate. The only way The Justice League was able to defeat The Crime Syndicate and save both Earths was to do something evil: Walk away and abandon Earth in the Anti-Matter Universe to The Crime Syndicate.
With The Justice Lords, it is a case of one event causing the Justice Lords (who were just like The Justice League up to that point) to go in a different direction. The change occured when Luthor (who was president at that time) killed The Flash. That led to Superman killing Luthor (In their final coversation Luthor called Superman his greatest accomplice since Superman would not actually stop him. All Superman would do is capture Luthor, put him in prison, Luthor would get out, and do it all again). Within 2 years The Justice Lords had taken control of the planet.
You could argue that Voyager's episode "Living Witness" does a Mirror Universe like spin, with the actors playing "evil" versions of themselves. Not to the same degree as a Mirror Universe counterpart, but still enjoyable in a very good overall episode.
I'd be tempted to count Living Witness as Voyager's Mirror Universe type episode.
I love a mirror universe episode or two parter. It works to play off of the cast every once in a while and give us a chance to see those characters in different roles and situations. I think it works really good as a one off "what if" for each serries, but can really overstay it's welcome once the fun of the change up loses novelty.
Erm, excuse me, but Flexo wasn't the evil-
Wait, now I've kept listening and you've explained that it was a deliberate misdirect, addressed in the episode itself.
Apologies for doubting you. Carry on.
You really thought I'd mischaracterize Flexo like that? You must be a fucking idiot. . . . Nah, I'm just messin' with ya.
@@SteveShives
Forgive me, I forgot (briefly) who I was dealing with.
It won't happen again.
...
Please don't block me again. Took me AAAAGES to claw my way back into your good graces.
The foray into the Mirror Universe in Discovery season 1 really killed it for me. I was surprised when you said it was only 4 episodes. In my memory it just went on and in for the whole second half of the season and was awful. (To the point that I can’t claim that I liked that season much at all.)
I will say that on a rewatch it's fun to spot the clues that Lorca is from the mirrorverse.
There are a great many.
Before Steve said the number of episodes, I was sure it was at least 6. Maybe it just felt that way.
What could help IMO is to make the mirror universe less about 'evil' versions of characters who are wildly different, and focus more on using it as a tool for character exploration. Don't make the characters evil campy opposites but different in subtle ways that can be used to say something about the prime characters, with an actual character driven point to it. But that would be a lot harder to write than a campy one off adventure.
Hmm. Like having the negative expressions of the character traits they are known for, in the prime universe.
Kirk: "In every revolution, there's one man with a vision!"
Mirror Spock: "Captain Kirk! I will consider it!"
Once of my favorite Kirk/Spock encounters in the original series.
Dark Mirror has a scene I liked, where Picard is in his Mirror Universe's counterpart's quarters, and going through his library. He reads Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, with the old speech about mercy replaced with one about revenge, a bunch of other authors, some changed, some not, then starts to open a bible, then thinks better of it and puts it back.
My favorite reference to the mirror universe goatee was the non-literal one DS9 did with Tom Riker, when “Will” pulls off the fake sides of his beard to dramatically reveal and his goatee clearly demonstrating this isn’t who we thought it was!
As said, it was Tom, not Mirror Riker, but still a funny nod to the trope Star Trek created in the first place.
Mirror Kira is HOT, not gonna lie.
@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan I think it's a similar situation to Mirror Willow in Buffy, the skin tight outfit and the sultry seductive attitude is what makes the difference
I actually liked the Mirror Enterprise double episode. It was good to see evil Archer and Trip and a shock to see the nice Dr Phlox transformed into a psycho. Also it was exciting to see the crew get their hands on the (comparatively) advanced Federation ship from their Mirror future.
That’s funny, I’ve always thought a fun thing about that one was that Phlox doesn’t emote or behave very differently. He’s obviously more interpersonally violent, but he does it in the same way that he harvests one of his sickbay animals in the normal timeline, and never loses his smile and upbeat delivery.
I like that they didn’t need to twist his character very much (especially in the second part when he cooperates with T’Pol he’s very similar indeed) to get the desired outcome, raising questions about the prime one, especially given his earlier line that he broke his medical ethics twice in his lifetime.
I'll be generous and allow every Star Trek show one mirror episode in their fourth season at the earliest.
You know Lower Decks will go there sooner rather than later anyways
For me In a mirror, darkly is in my top 5 episodes of Enterprise. And every time i rewatch it i still love the episodes (Ok i may be biased as i loved Enterprise as a series anyway). I would love to see a return to the mirror univers at some point but it wouldn't be a main focus. There is enough that i want to see with the new SNW and Picard seasons that dont invole any form of reflection.
Great video though and that skit at the end was brilliant. My first thought though was will we get a reveal that Mirror Steve is a Republican. That would have made me fall off the chair laughing.
The end skit was great! I think it would be funny if Mirror Steve was still a Democrat... except that Democrats on that side are this universe's version of Republicans in a plot twist. The look of disappointment on Prime Steve's face when Mirror Steve starts listing off prominent Democrats in his universe would be worth it XD
I was kind of hoping how in this universe the recently vanquished troll site Kiwi Farms has Steve listed as one of their lolcows where in the other universe Steve runs Kiwifarms with an iron fist.
Or better, Democrat still meant what it did in the 50s in the MU
In a Mirror, Darkly always bothered me because it seemed needlessly cruel without a point, considering the complete lack of a crossover with the prime universe.
After watching Discovery for the first time, I determined that if I NEVER saw the Mirror Universe again, it would be too soon.
I think the reason that Deep Space Nine got away with it for me is that not only did they change the premise significantly enough that it felt a little different, but also that it was only five episodes spread over seven seasons (and I could only remember four before you brought them up).
Like when Abed claimed, "We're living in the darkest timeline," and handed out paper cutouts of black van dykes (goatees with mustaches). And darkest timeline has entered the cultural lexicon, so it's a reference to a reference. How very meta.
TBH, Picard S2 would have worked better if the alternate universe they were in was the creation of the mirror universe. That would have been something new. But, let's be honest, I like being pandered to (except with weeping angels; they should never have come back on Doctor Who).
Community is my favorite use of the dark timeline trope. The episode Remedial Chaos Theory is brilliant.
It's worth revisiting in two instances:
1- SNW does an episode or two and Pike is "good" there too. Pike is wholesome in all universes. The Pike murdered by Mirror Kirk is actually transported to the main universe after having been on an undercover peace mission that resulted in him taking command after accidentally killing the previous Captain, Karl Franz. Spoiler: Mirror Pike is the one that actually ends up in the beep chair.
B - They do an entire movie in the mirror universe with the Kelvin crew
My favourite mirror universe use was actually a flash game set in the mirror universe with a mount & blade concept.
This may be the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia speaking but I have many fond memories of travelling the galaxy claiming planets for the terran empire, starting (and ending) wars with the other factions, etc.
I would have liked Mirror Janeway.
She could be the hero.
Lol 😆 🤣 😂
I had the same reaction to Disco hitting the Mirror button in season one. The fun only comes once you've established a solid relationship with the prime versions of the characters. They did it waaaay too early.
Ultimately the evil doppelganger trope can be done without going to the Mirror Universe, if Voyager managed it other series can!
Enterprise could've delayed their foray into the Mirror Universe even longer, for my money. Like until after the series wrapped.
"Great men aren't PEACEMAKERS, great men are conquers!".. best Archer one liner of the series. Perfect delivery of it
Not sure if anyone's said it on this video yet, but I've heard it said before that "Living Witness" was the closest that Voyager ever came to a Mirror Universe episode with the evil versions in the museum, so at least in terms of "Let the cast have fun playing scenery-chewing evil counterparts for an episode" Voyager kinda had one too.
Got to agree that Mirror Steve needs a beard too. You do indeed look more awesome with one 🙂
I love that Steve wouldn’t commit to the bit enough to cut the beard off
I LOVED the mirror Steve bit! That was waaaay cool!
Somebody has to say it, I want Mirror Tilly over Prime Tilly any day. Not only is she sure of herself & assertive, but that uniform is just bad ass.
Not all of the Mirror episodes have been good, but I really love the idea of a mirror universe with evil versions of our main characters. I actually really liked Enterprise's episodes, and thought their mirror credits was brilliant, as if we were the mirror version of the audience watching their version of the show. I thought the second season of Picard did a good job of updating the idea with the Confederation of Earth, and I hope we see more of that. Some series outside of Star Trek have mirror like episodes, and I'm always happy to see them.
I got to wondering... what would the Mirror universe's version of Picard season 2 be like? Q sends mirror Picard and a bunch of people he knows to an alternate timeline where Earth set up a peaceful and benevolent space union, and they have to go back in time and mess it all up?
Great Work Mr Shives. I agree wholeheartedly, been saying the same thing myself for a looooooong time now.
Silvia Tilly is a *treasure*, and Captain Killy is absolutely the best thing that's ever come from a mirror universe episode. I even went back to play Star Trek Online just to check out the DSC crossover content when it was added to that disaster of a game
It's great for self contained stories, "here's the setup, our characters are facing dark versions of their friends" it's a lark, it's when it comes back so now you need to have continuity and to make things make sense that issues arrise. A society where everyone is backstabbing constantly, the more you see it the less it works. Mirror, Mirror, it's just the ship, you don't need to know how or why the rest of the universe works. Crossover too, it's just on the station so it's self contained but the more you bring in the more awkward it is. Then you get to Discovery where you get the Emperor, high ranking officials... and the premise kinda collapses in on itself. If it'd just been "Mirror Lorca is loose" then they run around and stop his plan, cool, but they pulled on the thread and it all unraveled.
One of my most favorite videos of yours yet. More mirror universe crossovers please.
As a teenager Evil sexy Kira made the mirror episodes completely worth it.
The only follow up to Mirror, Mirror that I actually enjoyed was from an episode of the web series, Star Trek Continues. It was titled, Fairest of them all, it begins with Mirror Spock transporting Prime Kirk & crew back to their universe, then Mirror Kirk & crew re-materialize back from the Prime universe and the story continues aboard the Mirror Enterprise. An enjoyable episode.
Is it possible that Riker was replaced with the mirror version between seasons one and two?
"...for I am old" As a fellow 40-something, I felt that, Steve. 😊
It's a good thing that I'm a huge fan of yours Steve, because your take on Trek has been very different from mine for awhile now. Fan service can be a lot of fun. The mirror universe has been mostly a lot of fun. Fun being the key for me. Since Trek is make believe, the only thing I require is that I receive some enjoyment from any given episode. it's a bonus when their are thought provoking episodes as well.
Hey there! Canadian, here! ... Kudos for the background on your monitor. My favourite place in the world: Lake Moraine, Alberta in Banff National Park.
I was on TV! I finally patronized someone who actually enjoyed it and thanked me!
The Emperor's New Cloak is one of my least favorite episodes of DS9. Part of that of that is how they need to steal a cloaking device when they already have that, and another part of it is because it was just worn out, as you said.
Oh this is great timing. I just showed one of my best friends Mirror, Mirror (and Fairest Of Them All in Star Trek Continues) last night
When SNW does a mirror universe episode, I hope that T'Pring has a goatee.
Hi Steve. Just a comment from an over- keen student. "Space Seed" is the other episode from TOS that has multiple ramifications, as well as references both conceptual and canon-wise in many subsequent series. DS9, ENT and SNW I can think of off-hand. Not to mention this single episode being the instigating factor behind the classic Star Trek "trilogy" films. I was about to site "Into Darkness too!", but I feel that would be repeating myself.
Oddly enough I got the impression that Discovery was going somewhere a little more interesting with the mirror universe - there were interesting revelations such as the physics of the mirror universe being slightly different, and as a result Terran biology was not in fact quite the same, etc. I got the impression that in Disco, the mirror universe isn't just a random alternate timeline. More a specific reflection of the timeline the prime stories take place in - this is why, in every era, there are so many analogous sentient beings existing in both universes at once. In an alt timeline even a small divergence would result in a vastly different world after just a short while! (See TOS itself with "City on the Edge of Forever").
I would actually be quite interested in the mirror universe being explored as a unique phenomenon in cosmic structure, rather than just a random timeline where some characters are bad.