As a trombonist, I'd say the same thing about the trombone. And I guess I'd have more rules. For instance, all brass instruments are transposing. But not the trombone. More seriously, about the rotary valves vs piston, when a trombone has valves (bass trombone, or full trombone), it's rotary valves, not pistons.
@@aikifab Thanks for your comment and for watching the video. Rule 13 about the valve types says "...when there is a set of three valves", so the trombone is not an exception here. As I've mentioned in a previous reply, maybe it's misleading having a trombone on the graphic for this slide. I'm not sure I understand your comment about all brass instruments are transposing except the trombone? Surely all brass instruments that read in bass clef (tuba, euphonium, trombone etc) can be considered non-transposing. Also when a trombone (or tuba, or euphonium) reads in treble clef then they are transposing. As I understand it, all instruments in brass bands except the bass trombone read in transposed treble clef. And what about the C tuba or the C trumpet? Non transposing? Apart from the slide (and the different articulation associated with slide work) the trombone is basically a scale model of a trumpet, and follows the same rules. Happy to be advised if this is not the case...
@@aikifabBb Euphonium is not transposing either. This is reflected in rule 7: when music is in bass clef, it is always in concert pitch. But I have to admit that trombone is also a very unique instrument, which is the first fully chromatic brass and hasn't changed much in hundreds of years.
@@dontfearthehorn By transposing, I just mean that a C on the trombone is an actual C, whereas on the tuba, it's generally an Bb. Of course, there are C trumpets, but in the commonly used brass, trombone is the only one that sounds like it's written. You mention clef, but that only changes the octaves. And, for trombones, I don't know anyone reading the treble clef. It's either bass (most common), or tenor clef for high notes.
I have something to say to Rule 3. Because in Germany where I learned Trumpet we have something called a "Posaunenchor" it's a kind of band only consisting of brass instruments which mainly play in churches more precise the protestant churches. In these chiors the Trumpet score is written in C rather than in B♭ the "normal" Pitch of a Trumpet. And there all beginners learn to play the Trumpet pitched in B♭ with the score in the treble clef beeing written in C. So every beginner who learns in that chior transposes the music without knowing that they are transposing. I know this is a rather unusual thing in other countries but I think it's pretty cool.
Thanks for that, that's very interesting. I knew there would be exceptions and nice to hear about them. I wonder if that system dates back to the Baroque era. I know that Handel (my knowledge is primarily from horn parts in Fireworks and Water Music) often wrote his trumpet and horn parts in C. It'd be cool if this was a continuation of his system?
@@dontfearthehorn I'm not entirely sure but as far as I know there was a need for the organ playing outside, which was impossible at that time so they just took the scores written for organ and handed them out unaltered for the musicians to play. So I think they were rather too lazy to alter it so it would fit the "normal" standards for trumpet players. But as I say I'm not quite sure.
I was once told (by an older member of my band who had to relearn Bb on their trumpet) that this was intentional so that players couldn‘t leave the church band and join a secular band. But maybe this is only a rumour (or an effect not intended at the beginning)…
@@seth094978while technically not (??), they kinda definitely still are. They’re reading music for C trumpet on a Bb. If they were reading it on a C, it’d sound as if it were on a D tpt instead of how it’s supposed to sound, so while in this context to the ear it may sound “non-transposed” (still kinda confused on why you think that to begin with) it still definitely is.
Rule 6, the tuba is in it's own world - I've never had to put my hand in the bell for any effect. Did have to use a mute once, never mine or anyone else's hand.
As a trombonist I am impressed that your background music (Schumann's Rhenisch, mvt 4) is one of the most difficult and often requested audition pieces (due to its high tessitura at pp).
Thanks for this informative video. The "Middle C is the ___ harmonic" was new to me, and should have been obvious. It confirms that trombone writing can much more be like trumpet writing. (I've always had trouble writing effectively for trombone.) I'm amazed at how many nit-pickers there are in the comments, and how ready they are to defend their one "fact", not realising that other parts of the world do it differently. (Maybe it's best not to add the octave thing in bass clef for old notation; that's probably going to cause an embolism!) In all the places I've worked, there's always been a good relationship between the horns and the bassoons (my instrument). I often wished I had taken up horn instead!
3:22 When American drum and bugle corps still used G bugles, the baritone, euphonium, and contrabass bugles all either read transposed treble clef or bass clef. Treble clef was transposed as G=C but on bass clef they did G=Bb. Most arrangers and players preferred treble clef. Interestingly, “French horn bugles” were popular as an alto voice before 3 valve bugles were allowed because they had the same length of tubing as a baritone bugle but a French horn mouthpiece and bore. They could sound more notes than any other bugle in the corps. You’ll see them with one valve that shifts from G to D, 2 valves (like valves 1 and 2), and a piston and rotor valve. They’re strange instruments and they come up on eBay frequently.
Wow. I had heard rumours of transposed bass clef but that's a great explanation. Thank you. I'll keep an eye out for a French Horn bugle, never heard of that before!
Some rules, as least for trombone are not entire correct. But you chose specific wording to make it technically correct. And I am assuming you are talking about standard modern instruments.
First of all, I think this video is realy funny and it effectively shows that the french horn is a naughty brass ! Tho, I just can't help my nerdy side from typing these fun facts Rule 2 : standards versions of the trumpet include the c trumpet.. I mean, d, e flat, f, g or a are rare but c and b flat are common for the trumpet (there is even a few trumpets that gots the two of these pitch built in -sometimes even three pitchs : a, b flat and c, on older instruments) Rule 4 : for the flugel, middle c on the clef is the third harmonic Rule 9 : 4th valve can also be for quarter-tone on the trumpet Rule 12 : all the cornet/flugel have v shaped mouthpiece, or c/v hybrid (wich also exist on trumpet)
Glad you enjoyed the video! Yes, the horn is very naughty... Rule 2: depends on your definition of "standard". Worldwide B-flat trumpet dominates. Rule 4: this is not true. Unless you are playing an E-flat soprano flugelhorn and reading a B-flat part Rule 12: cornet/flugel mouthpieces may be more V shaped than a trumpet but I've never seen a conical one with purely straight sides.
It's still the 2nd harmonic even on flugelhorn, but due to the instrument's construction and mouthpiece you can play the fundamental much more ezsily than on the trumpet
I would make the argument that Tubas(concert) have rotary valves as often as they have pistons. And I would also make the argument that Eb tuba is so uncommon compared to F or C that it definitely is not a regular occurrence or something anyone would ever teach on.
About rule 3 for French horn where you say that the score is always for an F horn. That is not true. E.g. Mozart's 4th horn concerto is written for a horn in Eb. In fact, the score can be written for almost any key instrument (that dates back to the time when there were only natural horns, with no valves). Professional horn players are masters of transposition on the fly. About rule 9: the 4th valve (for a double horn) is available in two configurations: when actuated, it can put the instrument in Bb or in F. In Belgium (where I am from) for example, actuating the 4th valve is usually selecting the F side and while released it is the Bb side. I believe in the US it is usually the other way around. But anyway, on most professional French horns, the instrument can be adapted to be in one or the other configuration.
Regarding Rule 9 and the 4th valve control changing between F and B-flat. B-Flat as the open position is much more common in Europe for some reason, while in North America we tend towards F as the open position. My 1967 Ed Kruspe Erfurt double horn is easily switchable by removing 2 screws on the trigger and switching the positions. This means I can choose to have no-trigger be either B-flat or F depending on the position of the linkage. Since I learned horn from my aunt, who was a contemporary and good friend of Ethel Merker, I tend to leave my setup as F no trigger and B-flat trigger.
Just looking at your thumbnail, this isn’t true for Trombones. Trombones are written in C (even in treble clef) but are in Bb. Also Bass clef Euphonium/Baritone.
Thanks for taking the time to look at the thumbnail, which says "In treble clef, music for beginners is written in the key of the instrument". I'd love to see a trombone part written in treble clef C for a beginner. I've never seen a treble clef trombone part in C myself, but surely for a beginner that would be rather too high??!!
@@dontfearthehorn I later watched the video, but I was so confused at the thumbnail I felt the need to write something immediately haha I can't recall ever seeing a trombone part written in Bb treble clef. To me, music for beginner trombone would always be written in bass clef. Especially since the vast majority of music written for trombone is in bass clef. Teaching a beginner student Bb treble clef would be like teaching a piano student alto clef as their first clef. Writing in low treble is actually not that high for a beginner, some of my beginner trombone students can reach D4, at the bottom of the staff. Though most of the range is significantly too low. For low brass, I can only recall seeing Bb treble written for euphonium and baritone. A few times for a British brass band, and a few times for students switching from trumpet. Even then, for a baritone student, unless my student was a trumpet switch, or primarily plays in British brass settings, I wouldn't teach Bb treble until my student can play at a college or an early professional level.
@@dontfearthehorn Oh as well, you often see C treble clef trombone parts as a replacement for tenor/alto clef in a lot of American jazz/studio music, and occasionally in orchestral music.
@@OliviaSNava Yep exactly, I think it depends on the settings. A huge amount of British teaching is in the brass band tradition, so will teach trombone in treble clef (B-flat). I do quite a lot of beginner group teaching, so we have mixed B-flat instruments learning together. Although I've been told not to do it by the trombone specialists around me (I'm in London, so we're more of the orchestral (bass clef concert pitch) tradition than brass band (treble clef in B-flat)), I would actually prefer to teach trombone in treble clef at the start. Wouldn't it be easier to call your first few notes C,D,E,F&G (like trumpets do) rather than B-flat, C, D, E-flat and F? Also it means you can teach all the Bb brass together calling their notes exactly the same and all sounding the same (of course at different octaves).
@@dontfearthehorn I did not know that trombones also played in treble Bb in british band settings. If your students are steeped in the setting, then teach them how is best for the setting. Having said that, I have actually not particularly found this a problem in my American band/orchestral pedagogy. It's slightly easier to call your first few notes CDEFG, but students catch on quick that Bb is just a name for the note and it doesn't really matter why it's called Bb, and later they can understand the why of it. The school that I teach at we do have separate sections for high brass and low brass, but it's not particularly difficult to teach them collectively either. We often say things like "We're going to play concert Bb, trumpets, clarinets your C, altos your G, and do the rest of the exercise." or something similar. This helps with bridging the gaps between the concert/Eb/Bb/F instruments by letting them know the concert pitch that they're playing. I do agree with your orchestral peers that they should be taught bass clef as well, since it prepares them for beyond the british brass setting, but I see your reasoning behind teaching them treble clef Bb. Like I said, I have never, before today, seen trombones written with treble clef. Even when I have played with British-style brass bands in the US, I've been given bass clef parts.
I have something to say about the rule 13. I know it is quite debatable, since I have not calculated the populations or anything, but from what I have seen, pistons are not dominant world-wide on all but the horn (and trombone). Rather, the world is split roughly into two about equaly large halves roughly separated by the border between France and Germany. On the west of this border, pistons are greatly the dominant type, and on the east, rotors are (with the exeption of Japan, Australia, New Zealand, south Korea and possibly few more countries). There are two curiosities to this: Trumpet is greatly more common in pistons on the west, but is about 50/50 pistons to rotors on the east. And Tuba is extremely more common in rotors on the east and about 50/50 pistons to rotors on the west. I, being Czech, have never in person seen anything but trumpet with piston valves. I admit and I might very well be living in a bubble, since I live in one of these "some regions", but I see these regions as quite more expansive then is suggested in the video, spaning over almost half of the area where they use brass instruments. To avoid similar controversy, I would have worded this rule as "in the English speaking world pistons are dominant". Also, about rule 2. Where I live, the bass tuba for traditional music is F tuba and is about as common for beginners to start with as the Bb tuba (I personally have started on F tuba). Eb tuba is extremely uncommon here. I do not believe it is used too extensively anywhere in Europe other the the UK, Ireland and Denmark. Also maybe appropriate to reword as "In the English speaking world" And a small note to rule 5. Fourth valves on all tubas and "euphoniums" I personally have seen are operated with the right pinky, not the left hand. It is related to them being pretty much exclusively with rotary valves, as I have said earlier. Anyway, I have enjoyed the video :D I do not mean anything bad by this comment, These are just fun things to have a friendly discussion about.
Thanks for your comments. I think the tuba could be considered to be more of a rotary valve instrument worldwide but not the trumpet. And I concede that the Eb tuba is quite a British thing. Very interesting to get different points of view. Thank you
Rule 3: B-flat trumpets and B-flat baritones are transposing in treble clef. I rarely saw a C trumpet used through college, always B-flat. I did have to "transpose" playing tuba, when reading bass music (Jazz/basketball bands) - I never really considered reading music an octave higher to be transposing.
@@dontfearthehorn not entirely, it is mostly used to help when you play a fast piece and you don't have much time to move You can also play with it, in 1st position, the entire upper Bb scale
@@Oriya-b1x Ok fair enough, and yes I've even seen people do that scale. Thank you. But just before I sack my trombone advisory team, I've just checked the wording and it does say "4th valves". I know that F attachments works like a 4th valve, but surely you need three other valves (and not a slide) to have a 4th valve? My mistake for putting a picture of a valveless trombone in the rule 9 graphic. Think I might have just about have got away with that one... 😅
I grew up solely in the British Brass band world and never considered them a brass instrument until I was in college..but there is no way I'd ever welcome them into a brass band. . Eb Alto Horns FTW!!!
When I play my rotary valved Tuba upside downwards, the bell points downward and I have to play with the left hand. Middle c (c') is the 9th harmonic and I can never put my hand in the bell regardless of where the bell is pointing to. 🙂
There is no transposition from written to sounding pitch for trombones, euphoniums, and tubas when they're using bass clef, but these instruments are still in Bb because the pedal note in first position or with no valves down sounds Bb. They are non-transposing Bb instruments.
I can transpose, I have perfect pitch and perfect tempo, so I have no problem reading any kind of music. I can play trombone with treble clef and I can play French horn in bass clef
Mmmmm,La cuarta valvula o el cuarto rotor en la tuba se usa tambien para notas de registro normal reemplazando la 6 pocicion y el quinto igual remplazando la 5 pocicion,muchas tubas son invertidas y las tubas mas comunes son en Si bemol,Do,Mi bemol y fa
Behold a reference to the superbone! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbone This version of a valve/slide trombone was developed in conjunction with jazz trumpeter Maynard Ferguson in the 1970s. There were earlier and later models.
@@dontfearthehorn I guess tubas deviate the most from your video. But there's some other stuff worth mentioning imo. You could probably take the trumpet and make a similar video, considering the variety in orchestral C, D and Eb trumpets, some of which have weird extra keys (yes keys, not valves) for high notes. The baritone, euphonium, tenor horn, whatever it is called depending on region also can be very confusing. I'm from Austria and our baritone bells point sideways. And even our straight baritones have the bell on the opposite side compared to English/American ones. sorry for the provocative comment, I do agree that the French horn is probably the weirdest of them all, but at the same time it seems quite more standardized than other brass instruments
They have Mellophones in F in US marching bands I believe. Those are quite strange in their own right. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're alluding to. Here in Germany only professionals use trumpets or tubas that aren't in B flat, let alone other instruments. This is mainly because amateurs really could not be bothered to buy another instrument that sounds 90% identical and don't have the chops to play a piccolo in A.
I think that quite often in the usa, the fourth valve of baritones, euphs, and tubas is in line with the other 3. Also, the french horn is basically (roughly) a skinny F tuba with a trumpet-ish mouthpiece.
It's definitely not, the horn has existed for far longer than the Tuba and played very little role in Tuba development. The sound both instruments make is completely different (listen to the last movement of Shostakovich 5 to hear the difference). Also, the horn's mouthpiece is a completely different shape to a modern trumpet mouthpiece. Horn mouthpieces are still pretty similar in design to the ones used in the 18th century. Trumpet ones have changed to be smaller versions of the mouthpieces of the larger brass instruments.
The flugelhorn diesn't have a cup shaped mouthpiece. It is more like the french horn. So switching from the flugelhorn to the french horn was mouthpiece wise not a big step.
The info that I’ve found looking at the official spec diagrams of flugel mouthpieces (and people I’ve spoken too) say it’s a much deeper cup than a trumpet but still a cup ie it’s not got straight sides. More conical, yes, but not conical like the horn
@@dontfearthehorn Mate I've got both in hand and flugel / deep v tuba / Denis Wick alto mouthpieces are all way closer to French horn than trumpet / trombone cups.
Rule 1. The double horn is the preferred instrument for beginners. Single horns in F may be used as a beginner instrument, but that is largely a compromise to reduce cost. Either way, as a composer/orchestrater please just treat the horn as an instrument in F. Really most of these rules are more relavent to pedagogy than orchestration.
The double horn is only my preferred instrument for beginners if they are big enough to comfortably hold it. Most of my beginners (aged 8-10) start on mini-wrap singles
Yeah, I did not appreciate on my first viewing that your series is really about learning/teaching the horn and less about using/appreciating the horn in compositions. I agree that 8-10 aged beginners would really benefit from smaller wrapped instruments, which in turn may be singles. It makes me smile with delight that you have beginner horn students of that age group at all! In my locale, the band program starts with students that are 11-12 years of age. There are also many programs that don't offer the horn as an introductory instrument at all, so beginner hornists will be transfers from the trumpet/cornet section. That's how I started, on the trumpet at 10 and switched to horn when I was 13. My son started with a 3/4 wrap double at 12 years of age. He definitely benefited from the smaller wrap, but unfortunately that instrument was inferior to any full-sized instrument I've ever encountered. I would absolutely have started him on a 3/4 single instead if that would have gotten him an instrument that was more naturally in tune. Unfortunately, when I was shopping for that first instrument, there was very limited availability of smaller sized instruments in the US.
Mozart, Beethoven, pretty much every composer I can think of. Not for whole pieces, just when it’s needed. The horn can play 2 octaves below middle C, so that would be a lot of ledger lines if you kept in treble clef
My friend once told me that "there are only two types of brass instruments: French horns and others". Now I realize that his words really make sense!😂
Ha! Wise words indeed. That's exactly why I made these videos 👍
As a trombonist, I'd say the same thing about the trombone. And I guess I'd have more rules. For instance, all brass instruments are transposing. But not the trombone. More seriously, about the rotary valves vs piston, when a trombone has valves (bass trombone, or full trombone), it's rotary valves, not pistons.
@@aikifab Thanks for your comment and for watching the video. Rule 13 about the valve types says "...when there is a set of three valves", so the trombone is not an exception here. As I've mentioned in a previous reply, maybe it's misleading having a trombone on the graphic for this slide. I'm not sure I understand your comment about all brass instruments are transposing except the trombone? Surely all brass instruments that read in bass clef (tuba, euphonium, trombone etc) can be considered non-transposing. Also when a trombone (or tuba, or euphonium) reads in treble clef then they are transposing. As I understand it, all instruments in brass bands except the bass trombone read in transposed treble clef. And what about the C tuba or the C trumpet? Non transposing? Apart from the slide (and the different articulation associated with slide work) the trombone is basically a scale model of a trumpet, and follows the same rules. Happy to be advised if this is not the case...
@@aikifabBb Euphonium is not transposing either. This is reflected in rule 7: when music is in bass clef, it is always in concert pitch. But I have to admit that trombone is also a very unique instrument, which is the first fully chromatic brass and hasn't changed much in hundreds of years.
@@dontfearthehorn By transposing, I just mean that a C on the trombone is an actual C, whereas on the tuba, it's generally an Bb. Of course, there are C trumpets, but in the commonly used brass, trombone is the only one that sounds like it's written. You mention clef, but that only changes the octaves. And, for trombones, I don't know anyone reading the treble clef. It's either bass (most common), or tenor clef for high notes.
I have something to say to Rule 3. Because in Germany where I learned Trumpet we have something called a "Posaunenchor" it's a kind of band only consisting of brass instruments which mainly play in churches more precise the protestant churches. In these chiors the Trumpet score is written in C rather than in B♭ the "normal" Pitch of a Trumpet. And there all beginners learn to play the Trumpet pitched in B♭ with the score in the treble clef beeing written in C. So every beginner who learns in that chior transposes the music without knowing that they are transposing. I know this is a rather unusual thing in other countries but I think it's pretty cool.
Thanks for that, that's very interesting. I knew there would be exceptions and nice to hear about them. I wonder if that system dates back to the Baroque era. I know that Handel (my knowledge is primarily from horn parts in Fireworks and Water Music) often wrote his trumpet and horn parts in C. It'd be cool if this was a continuation of his system?
@@dontfearthehorn I'm not entirely sure but as far as I know there was a need for the organ playing outside, which was impossible at that time so they just took the scores written for organ and handed them out unaltered for the musicians to play. So I think they were rather too lazy to alter it so it would fit the "normal" standards for trumpet players. But as I say I'm not quite sure.
No, they are learning to play not transposed, when everyone else learns to play transposed.
I was once told (by an older member of my band who had to relearn Bb on their trumpet) that this was intentional so that players couldn‘t leave the church band and join a secular band. But maybe this is only a rumour (or an effect not intended at the beginning)…
@@seth094978while technically not (??), they kinda definitely still are. They’re reading music for C trumpet on a Bb. If they were reading it on a C, it’d sound as if it were on a D tpt instead of how it’s supposed to sound, so while in this context to the ear it may sound “non-transposed” (still kinda confused on why you think that to begin with) it still definitely is.
It’s honestly the most helpful thing I’ve watched so far with trying to work out the horn. Keep up the good work
Great news📯❤
Rule 6, the tuba is in it's own world - I've never had to put my hand in the bell for any effect.
Did have to use a mute once, never mine or anyone else's hand.
Yep, you'd need pretty long arms...
This video gives me 2010 UA-cam vibes, and I love it!
As a trombonist I am impressed that your background music (Schumann's Rhenisch, mvt 4) is one of the most difficult and often requested audition pieces (due to its high tessitura at pp).
Glad you approve!
Thanks for this informative video. The "Middle C is the ___ harmonic" was new to me, and should have been obvious. It confirms that trombone writing can much more be like trumpet writing. (I've always had trouble writing effectively for trombone.)
I'm amazed at how many nit-pickers there are in the comments, and how ready they are to defend their one "fact", not realising that other parts of the world do it differently. (Maybe it's best not to add the octave thing in bass clef for old notation; that's probably going to cause an embolism!)
In all the places I've worked, there's always been a good relationship between the horns and the bassoons (my instrument). I often wished I had taken up horn instead!
Glad you enjoyed it! Bass Clef notation coming in Chapter 15. Buckle up!
3:22 When American drum and bugle corps still used G bugles, the baritone, euphonium, and contrabass bugles all either read transposed treble clef or bass clef. Treble clef was transposed as G=C but on bass clef they did G=Bb. Most arrangers and players preferred treble clef. Interestingly, “French horn bugles” were popular as an alto voice before 3 valve bugles were allowed because they had the same length of tubing as a baritone bugle but a French horn mouthpiece and bore. They could sound more notes than any other bugle in the corps. You’ll see them with one valve that shifts from G to D, 2 valves (like valves 1 and 2), and a piston and rotor valve. They’re strange instruments and they come up on eBay frequently.
Wow. I had heard rumours of transposed bass clef but that's a great explanation. Thank you. I'll keep an eye out for a French Horn bugle, never heard of that before!
this is just more proof the french horn is just a drunk trumpet
and this is a golden comment
@@phasefunk Agreed
Some rules, as least for trombone are not entire correct. But you chose specific wording to make it technically correct. And I am assuming you are talking about standard modern instruments.
Maybe so. But they're my rules and my words - making them correct!! And yes, standard modern instruments.
Tubas in Eb…
Laughs in American
Also, tuba is closer to horn in some of these attributes than you might think.
Trombone in Eb
Trombone in treble clef
Horn in bass clef
Horn naturally in Bb
Tuba using piston valves
*Dies in American*
this video is amazing! you deserve a sub!
First of all, I think this video is realy funny and it effectively shows that the french horn is a naughty brass ! Tho, I just can't help my nerdy side from typing these fun facts
Rule 2 : standards versions of the trumpet include the c trumpet.. I mean, d, e flat, f, g or a are rare but c and b flat are common for the trumpet (there is even a few trumpets that gots the two of these pitch built in -sometimes even three pitchs : a, b flat and c, on older instruments)
Rule 4 : for the flugel, middle c on the clef is the third harmonic
Rule 9 : 4th valve can also be for quarter-tone on the trumpet
Rule 12 : all the cornet/flugel have v shaped mouthpiece, or c/v hybrid (wich also exist on trumpet)
Glad you enjoyed the video! Yes, the horn is very naughty...
Rule 2: depends on your definition of "standard". Worldwide B-flat trumpet dominates.
Rule 4: this is not true. Unless you are playing an E-flat soprano flugelhorn and reading a B-flat part
Rule 12: cornet/flugel mouthpieces may be more V shaped than a trumpet but I've never seen a conical one with purely straight sides.
It's still the 2nd harmonic even on flugelhorn, but due to the instrument's construction and mouthpiece you can play the fundamental much more ezsily than on the trumpet
loved your information & look forward in seeing them being played ,,,,,,,,,,,greetings Renee
About rule 3: trombones are pitched in Bb/F, but read in C.
Also I think Baritones read in Bb when in treble clef, but read in C when in bass clef
I would make the argument that Tubas(concert) have rotary valves as often as they have pistons. And I would also make the argument that Eb tuba is so uncommon compared to F or C that it definitely is not a regular occurrence or something anyone would ever teach on.
Maybe in the US, but certainly not in the UK where the E-flat tuba is the most common instrument for beginners.
About rule 3 for French horn where you say that the score is always for an F horn. That is not true. E.g. Mozart's 4th horn concerto is written for a horn in Eb. In fact, the score can be written for almost any key instrument (that dates back to the time when there were only natural horns, with no valves). Professional horn players are masters of transposition on the fly.
About rule 9: the 4th valve (for a double horn) is available in two configurations: when actuated, it can put the instrument in Bb or in F. In Belgium (where I am from) for example, actuating the 4th valve is usually selecting the F side and while released it is the Bb side. I believe in the US it is usually the other way around. But anyway, on most professional French horns, the instrument can be adapted to be in one or the other configuration.
I know. I am one.
Regarding Rule 9 and the 4th valve control changing between F and B-flat.
B-Flat as the open position is much more common in Europe for some reason, while in North America we tend towards F as the open position. My 1967 Ed Kruspe Erfurt double horn is easily switchable by removing 2 screws on the trigger and switching the positions. This means I can choose to have no-trigger be either B-flat or F depending on the position of the linkage. Since I learned horn from my aunt, who was a contemporary and good friend of Ethel Merker, I tend to leave my setup as F no trigger and B-flat trigger.
Just looking at your thumbnail, this isn’t true for Trombones. Trombones are written in C (even in treble clef) but are in Bb. Also Bass clef Euphonium/Baritone.
Thanks for taking the time to look at the thumbnail, which says "In treble clef, music for beginners is written in the key of the instrument". I'd love to see a trombone part written in treble clef C for a beginner. I've never seen a treble clef trombone part in C myself, but surely for a beginner that would be rather too high??!!
@@dontfearthehorn I later watched the video, but I was so confused at the thumbnail I felt the need to write something immediately haha
I can't recall ever seeing a trombone part written in Bb treble clef.
To me, music for beginner trombone would always be written in bass clef. Especially since the vast majority of music written for trombone is in bass clef. Teaching a beginner student Bb treble clef would be like teaching a piano student alto clef as their first clef.
Writing in low treble is actually not that high for a beginner, some of my beginner trombone students can reach D4, at the bottom of the staff. Though most of the range is significantly too low.
For low brass, I can only recall seeing Bb treble written for euphonium and baritone. A few times for a British brass band, and a few times for students switching from trumpet. Even then, for a baritone student, unless my student was a trumpet switch, or primarily plays in British brass settings, I wouldn't teach Bb treble until my student can play at a college or an early professional level.
@@dontfearthehorn Oh as well, you often see C treble clef trombone parts as a replacement for tenor/alto clef in a lot of American jazz/studio music, and occasionally in orchestral music.
@@OliviaSNava Yep exactly, I think it depends on the settings. A huge amount of British teaching is in the brass band tradition, so will teach trombone in treble clef (B-flat). I do quite a lot of beginner group teaching, so we have mixed B-flat instruments learning together. Although I've been told not to do it by the trombone specialists around me (I'm in London, so we're more of the orchestral (bass clef concert pitch) tradition than brass band (treble clef in B-flat)), I would actually prefer to teach trombone in treble clef at the start. Wouldn't it be easier to call your first few notes C,D,E,F&G (like trumpets do) rather than B-flat, C, D, E-flat and F? Also it means you can teach all the Bb brass together calling their notes exactly the same and all sounding the same (of course at different octaves).
@@dontfearthehorn I did not know that trombones also played in treble Bb in british band settings. If your students are steeped in the setting, then teach them how is best for the setting.
Having said that, I have actually not particularly found this a problem in my American band/orchestral pedagogy. It's slightly easier to call your first few notes CDEFG, but students catch on quick that Bb is just a name for the note and it doesn't really matter why it's called Bb, and later they can understand the why of it. The school that I teach at we do have separate sections for high brass and low brass, but it's not particularly difficult to teach them collectively either. We often say things like "We're going to play concert Bb, trumpets, clarinets your C, altos your G, and do the rest of the exercise." or something similar. This helps with bridging the gaps between the concert/Eb/Bb/F instruments by letting them know the concert pitch that they're playing.
I do agree with your orchestral peers that they should be taught bass clef as well, since it prepares them for beyond the british brass setting, but I see your reasoning behind teaching them treble clef Bb. Like I said, I have never, before today, seen trombones written with treble clef. Even when I have played with British-style brass bands in the US, I've been given bass clef parts.
Ahh i love it
I have something to say about the rule 13.
I know it is quite debatable, since I have not calculated the populations or anything, but from what I have seen, pistons are not dominant world-wide on all but the horn (and trombone). Rather, the world is split roughly into two about equaly large halves roughly separated by the border between France and Germany. On the west of this border, pistons are greatly the dominant type, and on the east, rotors are (with the exeption of Japan, Australia, New Zealand, south Korea and possibly few more countries). There are two curiosities to this: Trumpet is greatly more common in pistons on the west, but is about 50/50 pistons to rotors on the east. And Tuba is extremely more common in rotors on the east and about 50/50 pistons to rotors on the west. I, being Czech, have never in person seen anything but trumpet with piston valves. I admit and I might very well be living in a bubble, since I live in one of these "some regions", but I see these regions as quite more expansive then is suggested in the video, spaning over almost half of the area where they use brass instruments.
To avoid similar controversy, I would have worded this rule as "in the English speaking world pistons are dominant".
Also, about rule 2.
Where I live, the bass tuba for traditional music is F tuba and is about as common for beginners to start with as the Bb tuba (I personally have started on F tuba). Eb tuba is extremely uncommon here. I do not believe it is used too extensively anywhere in Europe other the the UK, Ireland and Denmark.
Also maybe appropriate to reword as "In the English speaking world"
And a small note to rule 5.
Fourth valves on all tubas and "euphoniums" I personally have seen are operated with the right pinky, not the left hand. It is related to them being pretty much exclusively with rotary valves, as I have said earlier.
Anyway, I have enjoyed the video :D I do not mean anything bad by this comment, These are just fun things to have a friendly discussion about.
Thanks for your comments. I think the tuba could be considered to be more of a rotary valve instrument worldwide but not the trumpet. And I concede that the Eb tuba is quite a British thing. Very interesting to get different points of view. Thank you
Rule 3: B-flat trumpets and B-flat baritones are transposing in treble clef. I rarely saw a C trumpet used through college, always B-flat.
I did have to "transpose" playing tuba, when reading bass music (Jazz/basketball bands) - I never really considered reading music an octave higher to be transposing.
A note for Rule 9, it is also a no for trombone. We have something that is called f attachment, a rotary valve.
But that's only used for the low register, isn't it?
@@dontfearthehorn not entirely, it is mostly used to help when you play a fast piece and you don't have much time to move
You can also play with it, in 1st position, the entire upper Bb scale
@@Oriya-b1x Ok fair enough, and yes I've even seen people do that scale. Thank you. But just before I sack my trombone advisory team, I've just checked the wording and it does say "4th valves". I know that F attachments works like a 4th valve, but surely you need three other valves (and not a slide) to have a 4th valve? My mistake for putting a picture of a valveless trombone in the rule 9 graphic. Think I might have just about have got away with that one... 😅
It's still a 4th valve, because it lowers the pitch by a perfect fourth :P
@@minor_2nd 👏👏Very good 😃
I grew up solely in the British Brass band world and never considered them a brass instrument until I was in college..but there is no way I'd ever welcome them into a brass band. . Eb Alto Horns FTW!!!
C trumpet and C tuba are also very standard in orchestra
When I play my rotary valved Tuba upside downwards, the bell points downward and I have to play with the left hand. Middle c (c') is the 9th harmonic and I can never put my hand in the bell regardless of where the bell is pointing to. 🙂
🤣🤣
mate, trombones are concert pitch are you special.
In British Brass band trombone is in Bb Treble clef along with euphonium/tuba/baritone etc.
@@seandemhairr4572 yes i know, but i find it unusual if he were to be talking in a brass band context, as french horns aren't in brass bands
As are tubas and euphs
@@seth094978 yeah lol
There is no transposition from written to sounding pitch for trombones, euphoniums, and tubas when they're using bass clef, but these instruments are still in Bb because the pedal note in first position or with no valves down sounds Bb. They are non-transposing Bb instruments.
Adding to rule 3: The key of the tenor trombone is the tenor clef, but beginners start to learn tenor trombone in bass clef.
Is the intro and outro tunes from Brahmkovsky playing the piano?
Exactly!!
I can transpose, I have perfect pitch and perfect tempo, so I have no problem reading any kind of music. I can play trombone with treble clef and I can play French horn in bass clef
Well done. I feel honoured to have such a phenomenal musician watch and comment on one of my little education videos. Thank you
Tambien la boquilla de tuba que yo uso es conica y tambien hay boquillas conicas de trompeta
Mmmmm,La cuarta valvula o el cuarto rotor en la tuba se usa tambien para notas de registro normal reemplazando la 6 pocicion y el quinto igual remplazando la 5 pocicion,muchas tubas son invertidas y las tubas mas comunes son en Si bemol,Do,Mi bemol y fa
Rule 13:
I have never seen a slide trombone with piston valves.
For trumpets, rotary valves are now common in Germany
I've never seen a slide trombone with piston valves either. And yes, rotary valve trumpets are common in Germany. But they don't break my rules...
Behold a reference to the superbone!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbone
This version of a valve/slide trombone was developed in conjunction with jazz trumpeter Maynard Ferguson in the 1970s. There were earlier and later models.
This is very UK-centric, i recommend some research on brass instruments in the US as well as the rest of Europe.
When you say "brass instruments" you mean "tubas", right?
@@dontfearthehorn I guess tubas deviate the most from your video. But there's some other stuff worth mentioning imo. You could probably take the trumpet and make a similar video, considering the variety in orchestral C, D and Eb trumpets, some of which have weird extra keys (yes keys, not valves) for high notes. The baritone, euphonium, tenor horn, whatever it is called depending on region also can be very confusing. I'm from Austria and our baritone bells point sideways. And even our straight baritones have the bell on the opposite side compared to English/American ones.
sorry for the provocative comment, I do agree that the French horn is probably the weirdest of them all, but at the same time it seems quite more standardized than other brass instruments
They have Mellophones in F in US marching bands I believe. Those are quite strange in their own right. Apart from that I'm not sure what you're alluding to. Here in Germany only professionals use trumpets or tubas that aren't in B flat, let alone other instruments. This is mainly because amateurs really could not be bothered to buy another instrument that sounds 90% identical and don't have the chops to play a piccolo in A.
As a french horn player and reading the title I will just say I don't care.
Well thank you so much for taking time to comment
I think that quite often in the usa, the fourth valve of baritones, euphs, and tubas is in line with the other 3. Also, the french horn is basically (roughly) a skinny F tuba with a trumpet-ish mouthpiece.
🤣Maybe I'm overthinking it then!
I wouldn't say the horn mouthpiece is "trumpet-ish"
@@jimm.s.4131 My bad. You're correct, it's much more like an oboe mouthpiece. All these years i've been playing with the wrong mouthpiece, silly me.
It's definitely not, the horn has existed for far longer than the Tuba and played very little role in Tuba development. The sound both instruments make is completely different (listen to the last movement of Shostakovich 5 to hear the difference). Also, the horn's mouthpiece is a completely different shape to a modern trumpet mouthpiece. Horn mouthpieces are still pretty similar in design to the ones used in the 18th century. Trumpet ones have changed to be smaller versions of the mouthpieces of the larger brass instruments.
Euphonium for the first 3 rules: am i a joke to u
The flugelhorn diesn't have a cup shaped mouthpiece. It is more like the french horn. So switching from the flugelhorn to the french horn was mouthpiece wise not a big step.
The info that I’ve found looking at the official spec diagrams of flugel mouthpieces (and people I’ve spoken too) say it’s a much deeper cup than a trumpet but still a cup ie it’s not got straight sides. More conical, yes, but not conical like the horn
@@dontfearthehorn Mate I've got both in hand and flugel / deep v tuba / Denis Wick alto mouthpieces are all way closer to French horn than trumpet / trombone cups.
Closer, but not conical
Rule 1. The double horn is the preferred instrument for beginners. Single horns in F may be used as a beginner instrument, but that is largely a compromise to reduce cost. Either way, as a composer/orchestrater please just treat the horn as an instrument in F. Really most of these rules are more relavent to pedagogy than orchestration.
The double horn is only my preferred instrument for beginners if they are big enough to comfortably hold it. Most of my beginners (aged 8-10) start on mini-wrap singles
Yeah, I did not appreciate on my first viewing that your series is really about learning/teaching the horn and less about using/appreciating the horn in compositions. I agree that 8-10 aged beginners would really benefit from smaller wrapped instruments, which in turn may be singles. It makes me smile with delight that you have beginner horn students of that age group at all! In my locale, the band program starts with students that are 11-12 years of age. There are also many programs that don't offer the horn as an introductory instrument at all, so beginner hornists will be transfers from the trumpet/cornet section. That's how I started, on the trumpet at 10 and switched to horn when I was 13.
My son started with a 3/4 wrap double at 12 years of age. He definitely benefited from the smaller wrap, but unfortunately that instrument was inferior to any full-sized instrument I've ever encountered. I would absolutely have started him on a 3/4 single instead if that would have gotten him an instrument that was more naturally in tune. Unfortunately, when I was shopping for that first instrument, there was very limited availability of smaller sized instruments in the US.
French horn players ought to be paid more, and allowed to eat sooner than the rest of the orchestra, when refreshments are served.
YES! Absolutely this. Top comment!!
I've never seen an Eb euphonium
Me neither
Conclusion: the French horn isn’t a brass instrument, it’s a wind instrument.
I will fear the horn you cant stop me
You are correct. I can merely offer my assistance dear Lord
La mayoria de tubas profecionales son de rotores
Who the hell writes music in bass clef for the french horn? I have never ever seen that in my life.
Mozart, Beethoven, pretty much every composer I can think of. Not for whole pieces, just when it’s needed. The horn can play 2 octaves below middle C, so that would be a lot of ledger lines if you kept in treble clef
Tubas are always in concert pitch, unlike French Horns.
No, they're not
Okay.
Rule 9 is false on tuba
Rule 1: you can learn the Euphonium in 2 different keys
Yup. But Rule 1 says, There is a standard key (instrument length) for beginners...