Wow! What a summation. This ties this canto to both what went before and what follows, unlike most of the others which stay within the assigned canto. This also introduces, finally, the first suggestion that the pilgrim may be less than a reliable reporter of what he sees. The pilgrim affected and changed by being in hell? Now what are we supposed to rhink about his reliability? And what does that do to our role as readers? Do we have any responsibility to change our opinion and attitude toward the poet and the poem based on what we learn here? This presentation offers several rich new avenues for us to explore as we ponder this poem. Thank you!
Wow Dr. Davis. I enjoyed this presentation so much that I watched it several times. What an eye opener about truth, and sinners becoming acclimated to hell. No doubt Dante wanted to send a warning by way of a cold shiver down our spines. It worked for me! Brrrr...
I thought that Dante also fell under the influence of the wrathful when he angrily pushed Filippo Argenti back into the water on the way to Dis (in Canto VIII)
Wow! Two things. 1. When she talks about the newly rich, I could not help but think of the Medici who rose to power in Florence. Cosimo was born roughly 60 years after Dante's death, (I think I have that right) and they were bankers. So her point is pretty interesting and worth more thought. 2. Her take on Dante being inured with hell is challenging. She ends her lecture well by asking what does this interpretation means. It also challenges the overall strategy of why Dante must first go through hell to get to heaven. Another point in her talk that is worth thinking about more deeply. This one was a good one. Came at Dante from an unexpected angle, but a good one.
I certainly enjoy reading your comments on each of the Cantos -- I tend to learn something every time, and this one is no different! How, if you have the time and inclination to respond, do you feel her perspective of Dante having become inured to Hell challenges the overall strategy of why Dante must pass through Hell to get to Heaven? Why do you believe it is a good "angle"? What would be another angle -- or is there a more widely accepted approach, or understanding, to Dante's passing through Hell to get to Heaven? P.S. Now I have to find out more about Cosimo de Medici!
Like a previous speaker pointed out in a Hobbs quote: “Hell is truth realized too late.” If Dante sees himself as a scuzzy sinner NOW, he can escape the torments of Hell later.
Cantos 15 and 16: Nature is everything created by God; Art is anything fabricated by God’s creatures. Crimes of violence against Nature and against Art are punished in Circle Seven. Having committed violent acts against Nature, these sinners are forced to move continually beneath falling flames, disfiguring them until they are no longer recognizable. Nature, following divine orders, has a God-planned purpose. Any behavior thwarting this purpose is “sinful.” The natural order for humans includes reproducing its own kind. Failure to do so, because of willful acts of violence, is punishable. Dante is surprised to encounter a close mentor and friend, as well as leaders from Florence, with whom he discusses the past and future. Although the men Dante meets have committed only one kind of violent act against Nature, it might be interesting to speculate if, in “today’s Inferno,” Dante might observe human traffickers, those who treat human life as a commodity. Although there were no “environmentalists” in Dante’s time, perhaps, today, he would see those who destroy our land and waters, committing violence against Nature. As they approach a waterfall they have been hearing, Virgil requests Dante’s assistance and is offered a Franciscan-like cincture that may represent Dante’s willingness to relinquish the passions of his former life in order to descend into Hell, ascend Mount Purgatory and enter Paradise. Virgil tosses the waist-cord into the abyss; they await the arrival of a creature from the next Circle.
I think you're reading too much into the Fra Alberigo refusal (seems a common issue with deep deep dive academic studies!) - it is purely a reaction to the heinousness of his crime and his action is exceptional just as the divine action to deny these 'zombie' sinners the chance of late repentance as their fate is sealed even as they still live above - they do not go past Minos but are zipped straight to their final place. If he's become as you put it 'inured' then why the harsh cries to Pisa and Genoa and the pity for Ugolino's young ones? Dante remains human.
I absolutely agree. In the scene with Fra Alberigo in Canto XXX, Dante says of his refusal to remove the ice from the sinner's eyes, "to be villainous to him was a courtesy." (Esolen translation). In Robert Hollander's note on Dante's behavior in his translation - "And I did not open them for him; and it was/courtesy to treat him boorishly," Robert Hollander comments, "That is, to have lightened in any way the suffering of this wicked soul would have been a lapse; true 'cortesia' (behavior appropriate to the court of a ruler, in this case, God) here requires what in other circumstances would be its reverse (the behavior of a peasant, a 'villano') . . ." While I admire the presenter's enthusiasm, I believe he is expressing an interpretation couched in the suspicions of our own time rather in the realities of the time in which Dante wrote his epic. If, as some have commented above, that the scene with Fra Alberigo makes Dante an untrustworthy narrator, then the entire 'Commedia' collapses.
JOB 1:6 One day, when the son's of God came to present themselves before the LORD, Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "Whence do you come?" Then Satan answered the Lord and said, "From roaming the earth and patrolling it." I Was told, the Devil does not do evil, people do evil. The devil can't make anyone do anything, he can only provide a temptation to do evil. If a person takes the bate, and does evil by one's own will to do so, then the Devil can judge that person accordingly. Punishment comes when the Devil comes for them after death. On that day every knee will bend every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord The devil is not a practitioner of evil. He is a judge of people who are a practitioner evil. When a person says, "The Devil made me do it!" as an excuse of doing something wrong, they can only be lying. And by that, compounding their sins with that lie. See, the Devil is said to be a servant of God. But he holds the sin of pride. Pride enough to question God's judgement of giving humanity both a soul and free will. Stating that humanity is not worthy of such gifts. God has in turn, given the Devil the task of finding those that may misuse the gifts God has given. And the freedom to punish them after. Nobody likes to be judged for any wrong doings. Humanity is imperfect, and easy to sway via our emotions. So humanity see the Devil as evil, due to being the enemy of those who do bad things. - All, or even none of this could be true. - But if it is true, and calling out the Devil as a scapegoat for the many Evils man makes, we may never truly get to the root of the problem, and in turn, never be able to fix it. Can we keep getting away with blaming the Devil for the many wrongs made by humanity? Will humans never own up to our own potential for doing evil via the free will to do so? Will we continue to learn nothing about the truth of human nature? The good and the bad sides of it? - To me, we are our own worst nightmare. Perhaps, someday, we may wake up and be enlightened to what we are doing to ourselves, and perhaps find a way to grow up as a people, and stop blaming dark shadows for what we do, and instead do better. Is that not what having free will is about? For you love all things that are and loathe nothing that you have made; for what you hated, you would not have fashioned.. and how could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you? But you spare all things, because they are yours, O Lord and lover of souls, For your imperishable spirit is in all things! Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little, warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing, that they may abandon their wickedness and believe in you, O LORD! He tests the good and the bad, He hates those who love violence For He loves the just and just deeds; the upright shall see his face. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandment; it is loyalty to do his will. There is set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power and all-seeing. The eyes of God see all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does he command to sin, to none does he give strength for lies.. O Jesus I know not if your real come ... come live in me Save Me
Your passion was infectious. What an interesting idea that Dante has become inured to the Inferno.
Wow! What a summation. This ties this canto to both what went before and what follows, unlike most of the others which stay within the assigned canto. This also introduces, finally, the first suggestion that the pilgrim may be less than a reliable reporter of what he sees. The pilgrim affected and changed by being in hell? Now what are we supposed to rhink about his reliability? And what does that do to our role as readers? Do we have any responsibility to change our opinion and attitude toward the poet and the poem based on what we learn here? This presentation offers several rich new avenues for us to explore as we ponder this poem. Thank you!
I love Ms. Davis' animation when describing this canto. Well done!!
Me too! I'll bet her classroom discussions are delicious.
Dr.
Yes, this presentation left me wanting to attend more of her lectures. I was captivated by her enthusiasm and style. Thank you!
Wow Dr. Davis. I enjoyed this presentation so much that I watched it several times. What an eye opener about truth, and sinners becoming acclimated to hell. No doubt Dante wanted to send a warning by way of a cold shiver down our spines. It worked for me! Brrrr...
I thought that Dante also fell under the influence of the wrathful when he angrily pushed Filippo Argenti back into the water on the way to Dis (in Canto VIII)
WOW! Very exciting. Another great take. Thanks
Wow! Two things.
1. When she talks about the newly rich, I could not help but think of the Medici who rose to power in Florence. Cosimo was born roughly 60 years after Dante's death, (I think I have that right) and they were bankers. So her point is pretty interesting and worth more thought.
2. Her take on Dante being inured with hell is challenging. She ends her lecture well by asking what does this interpretation means. It also challenges the overall strategy of why Dante must first go through hell to get to heaven. Another point in her talk that is worth thinking about more deeply.
This one was a good one. Came at Dante from an unexpected angle, but a good one.
I certainly enjoy reading your comments on each of the Cantos -- I tend to learn something every time, and this one is no different! How, if you have the time and inclination to respond, do you feel her perspective of Dante having become inured to Hell challenges the overall strategy of why Dante must pass through Hell to get to Heaven? Why do you believe it is a good "angle"? What would be another angle -- or is there a more widely accepted approach, or understanding, to Dante's passing through Hell to get to Heaven?
P.S. Now I have to find out more about Cosimo de Medici!
What a great and spirited presentation. Had to rewatch!
Brilliant and vivid.
Passionate description of Canto 16. Thank you.
Like a previous speaker pointed out in a Hobbs quote: “Hell is truth realized too late.” If Dante sees himself as a scuzzy sinner NOW, he can escape the torments of Hell later.
Thank you loved your explanation. Amazing journey and fabulous endeavour
Thank you! This was really interesting!
“What does this mean for us?” So thought provoking!
Well done
Super! I would love to know what the belt or chord symbolised and how it would draw a response from Geryon.
1:45 -- Subtitle should read "threnody" (wailing ode to a dead person), not "threnity". Took me several frustrating minutes to figure that out.
What happens to the allegory of the soul realizing his error if the pilgrim has become Geryon?
The emphasis on truth is very engaging.
Cantos 15 and 16: Nature is everything created by God; Art is anything fabricated by God’s creatures. Crimes of violence against Nature and against Art are punished in Circle Seven. Having committed violent acts against Nature, these sinners are forced to move continually beneath falling flames, disfiguring them until they are no longer recognizable. Nature, following divine orders, has a God-planned purpose. Any behavior thwarting this purpose is “sinful.” The natural order for humans includes reproducing its own kind. Failure to do so, because of willful acts of violence, is punishable. Dante is surprised to encounter a close mentor and friend, as well as leaders from Florence, with whom he discusses the past and future. Although the men Dante meets have committed only one kind of violent act against Nature, it might be interesting to speculate if, in “today’s Inferno,” Dante might observe human traffickers, those who treat human life as a commodity. Although there were no “environmentalists” in Dante’s time, perhaps, today, he would see those who destroy our land and waters, committing violence against Nature. As they approach a waterfall they have been hearing, Virgil requests Dante’s assistance and is offered a Franciscan-like cincture that may represent Dante’s willingness to relinquish the passions of his former life in order to descend into Hell, ascend Mount Purgatory and enter Paradise. Virgil tosses the waist-cord into the abyss; they await the arrival of a creature from the next Circle.
I think you're reading too much into the Fra Alberigo refusal (seems a common issue with deep deep dive academic studies!) - it is purely a reaction to the heinousness of his crime and his action is exceptional just as the divine action to deny these 'zombie' sinners the chance of late repentance as their fate is sealed even as they still live above - they do not go past Minos but are zipped straight to their final place. If he's become as you put it 'inured' then why the harsh cries to Pisa and Genoa and the pity for Ugolino's young ones? Dante remains human.
I absolutely agree. In the scene with Fra Alberigo in Canto XXX, Dante says of his refusal to remove the ice from the sinner's eyes, "to be villainous to him was a courtesy." (Esolen translation). In Robert Hollander's note on Dante's behavior in his translation - "And I did not open them for him; and it was/courtesy to treat him boorishly," Robert Hollander comments, "That is, to have lightened in any way the suffering of this wicked soul would have been a lapse; true 'cortesia' (behavior appropriate to the court of a ruler, in this case, God) here requires what in other circumstances would be its reverse (the behavior of a peasant, a 'villano') . . ." While I admire the presenter's enthusiasm, I believe he is expressing an interpretation couched in the suspicions of our own time rather in the realities of the time in which Dante wrote his epic. If, as some have commented above, that the scene with Fra Alberigo makes Dante an untrustworthy narrator, then the entire 'Commedia' collapses.
JOB 1:6
One day, when the son's of God came to present themselves
before the LORD, Satan also came among them. And the
Lord said to Satan, "Whence do you come?" Then Satan
answered the Lord and said, "From roaming the earth
and patrolling it."
I Was told, the Devil does not do evil, people do evil.
The devil can't make anyone do anything, he can only
provide a temptation to do evil. If a person takes the
bate, and does evil by one's own will to do so, then
the Devil can judge that person accordingly. Punishment
comes when the Devil comes for them after death.
On that day
every knee will bend
every tongue confess
Jesus Christ is Lord
The devil is not a practitioner of evil. He is a judge
of people who are a practitioner evil.
When a person says, "The Devil made me do it!" as an excuse
of doing something wrong, they can only be lying. And by
that, compounding their sins with that lie.
See, the Devil is said to be a servant of God. But he holds
the sin of pride. Pride enough to question God's judgement
of giving humanity both a soul and free will. Stating that
humanity is not worthy of such gifts. God has in turn, given
the Devil the task of finding those that may misuse the gifts
God has given. And the freedom to punish them after.
Nobody likes to be judged for any wrong doings. Humanity is
imperfect, and easy to sway via our emotions. So humanity
see the Devil as evil, due to being the enemy of those who
do bad things.
-
All, or even none of this could be true.
-
But if it is true, and calling out the Devil as a scapegoat for
the many Evils man makes, we may never truly get to the root of
the problem, and in turn, never be able to fix it.
Can we keep getting away with blaming the Devil for the many
wrongs made by humanity? Will humans never own up to our own
potential for doing evil via the free will to do so? Will we
continue to learn nothing about the truth of human nature?
The good and the bad sides of it?
-
To me, we are our own worst nightmare. Perhaps, someday, we
may wake up and be enlightened to what we are doing to ourselves,
and perhaps find a way to grow up as a people, and stop blaming
dark shadows for what we do, and instead do better.
Is that not what having free will is about?
For you love all things that are
and loathe nothing that you have made;
for what you hated, you would not have fashioned..
and how could a thing remain, unless you willed it;
or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?
But you spare all things, because they are yours,
O Lord and lover of souls,
For your imperishable spirit is in all things!
Therefore you rebuke offenders little by little,
warn them, and remind them of the sins they are committing,
that they may abandon their wickedness
and believe in you, O LORD!
He tests the good and the bad,
He hates those who love violence
For He loves the just and just deeds;
the upright shall see his face.
When God, in the beginning, created man,
he made him subject to his own free choice.
If you choose you can keep the commandment;
it is loyalty to do his will.
There is set before you fire and water;
to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Before man are life and death,
whichever he chooses shall be given him.
Immense is the wisdom of the LORD;
he is mighty in power and all-seeing.
The eyes of God see all he has made;
he understands man's every deed.
No man does he command to sin,
to none does he give strength for lies..
O Jesus
I know not if your real
come ... come
live in me
Save Me