Yeah I felt kind of weird trying to criticize it but she did it really well. I think my only other complaint that she didn't have was a very personal one: somehow despite it being a very quick read, it was too long and I got bored by the end of it. it didn't bore me enough that I'd give it a 1 star review though lol
@@jacklemm1518 I didn't like Babel because it read like a discounted Harry Potter meets hunger games. The title of Babel which refers to "Tower of Babel" is a reference to languages which the novel was about academia. It was rather a pretentious title and RF kaung is a pretentious girl. She's 20 years old or so when she wrote this having gone to major universities such as brown or Harvard, but who cares her work sucks ass. I don't understand why people like it or love it? To each their own. I found her work mean spirited, full of arrogance and a ripoff of JK rowling at times. Which is funny because she denounces JK rowling so much. She lives a very privileged life and she owes a lot to JK rowling a woman who wrote Harry Potter while on Welfare. So you she sucks.
The criticism around Rin's self-sterilization ranges from bizarre to disturbing for me. She had reasons to do it that were explained in the text. It had nothing to do with womanhood, and that one review saying that she took away "the greatest gift a woman could have" is more reflective of the reviewer than the book they claim to have read. And one character doing this does not equal the author saying this is the way we should all live. I suppose these reviewers also think George RR Martin is into incest?
I agree until that last point. I mean... even Elden Ring has an incestuous story element to it, lol. I'm joking, but I wouldn't be surprised, you know?
I haven't read the poppy war, but i agree. when i saw the reviewer called it "the greatest gift a woman could have" i immediately cringed cause it just felt like the opposite extreme of what they were complaining about which is also gross. women are more than their ability to bear children and did OP even think about how women who are unable to carry a child would feel to read that?? blech.
I always think it's hilarious when people equate the actions of the character to the views of the author. Especially a character like Rin, who is kind of angry and dumb and lost.
Endlessly frustrating when people do not realize that depiction != endorsement. "Your characters do bad things so you're in favor of bad things" is such a juvenile take by people so clearly putting on a Literary Critic hat and shoes that are way, way too big for them
Yeah, if anything I think RF Kuang went to great lengths to show us that Rin is an emotionally stunted character, and we should not at any point be completely in her corner, even if some of the impulses she acts upon are relatable. But by the end of book 1 for sure, any reader should know better than to think Rin is being portrayed as a hero in any capacity. She is the villain of her own story, and that's the point.
At this point in the conversation I'm usually telling people that one of my favorite books is American Psycho. The smart ones get the point I'm trying to make with this, the rest is probably scared of me. 😂
You are right. At the same time she went too far. Rin should be smarter based on the start and what she represents. She is too dumb later. So she fails to keep together her own main character. When it comes to decisions, Rin sometimes left sometimes right and you can't decide what will be, the character integrity fails. But that's correct: Kuang is not Rin.
The period thing: wasn’t it that her period was cripplingly painful to her and took her totally out of everything she wanted to accomplish for like a week and she was like I cannot do this again, it set me back, it was painful, I was sick. And like talked to someone who knows their stuff and made an INFORMED DECISION about her own future? Almost like a woman can be something, regardless of their period. Whatever. Lmao
I've heard that criticism of Poppy War that Rin has no motivations before and it confuses me. Sure, it never says "and this is why Rin felt she had to do this thing" blatantly, but to me it waa pretty clear that the abused orphan girl who had no control or power over her life growing up and literally tortured herself just for a chance at escaping that wants to gain power and status and be in control. Power (political and magical) = safety in Rin's mind.
I guess most of the readers who are from developed countries may find it ridiculous. In developing countries like China and India life is very difficult, competition is very high and there is social structure to make some people poor for rest of the life. So the story is very relatable to the third world perspective.
*SPOILERS FOR BABEL* I’m almost certain the character that reviewer’s referring to is Professor Lovell. Which is wild because he definitely wasn’t the most “well rounded” and his death was a PIVOTAL moment for the story.
As someone who read the entire The Poppy War trilogy I appreciate what the author tried to do; for me, the corruption arc -was- interesting in the end because I expected it to be something quite different. That said, the books are flawed in that characters do and say things for the plot to progress, and not because it makes sense to who they are and what they have been through in the books up to that point. And Rin's motivations do flip-flop, I theorize it's because Kuang either wasn't sure what motivated Rin, or they wanted to play coy with the reader and keep up the pretence that this book is a Hero's Journey where there will be justification for Rin's actions in the end.
This trilogy tried to be something it could have never been. The attempts were made, multiple directions crafted and yet it barely was a cohesive story. Too many archetypes, contradictions etc. Nonetheless it captured my attention and has a special place in my heart
I only read Babel and honestly that was enough for me not to pick up her other books. Her character work bothered me the most, but also her prose. At one point somewhere in the middle of the book Robin thinks something like "I will die for my friends." I remember reading that and thinking to myself, what? I honestly didn't even believe he really knew anything about them other than their ethnicity at that point. There is a lot of telling us how the characters feel instead of showing, and it read a bit more like a text book to me than a compelling story. While I'm sure that is fine for other people, I just feel like there are better written books out there that are more worth my time.
My experience with Babel was similar. By the end, I felt like I was promised more than what I was given, especially with the near-universal "6/5 stars" reviews online.
Personally i read the "i would die for my friends" part as a very believable depiction of bonding between ostracized teens. Although I'm not sure it's the most accurate description the term traumabonding comes to mind.
I have very different relationships to all of R.F. Kuang's books. I feel that a big problem I have as someone who likes character-driven stories is that, while her stories follow characters closely, they are not character-driven or plot-driven. They are concept-driven. The Poppy War is my favorite. I feel her prose is the weakest in it. It's clunky at times, but the characters and the arcs pulled me in despite the flawed execution and I found Rin's perspective to be powerful. In terms of the hot-topic of Rin's sterilization. I don't think it's empowering as some think, but I don't think it passes a bad message about womanhood either. Rin's decision WAS dehumanizing but its role was very specific. Rin did not think about 'after' or of how society will be reforged. She sets out to make herself a warrior and a strategist, but it's a weapon she becomes with every choice. That's part of her arc. Babel in my opinion had the best concept. I touched upon translation theory and reading more about it when studying comparative literature so it was nice to have more background on it and seeing what Kuang was inspired from and how she shaped it. The magic-system was just fascinating to me. Unfortunately I cared about the characters only vaguely. I understood their predicament and could tell what I 'felt' for their choices and their actions logically, but I didn't REALLY feel them. They were wooden in my opinion. As for the overall, approach it took... it was a mess. The aspects about translations and lingustics can be taken from any basic course and with little extra research. They were also being repeated after a certain point. Moreover, most of the characters were mouthpieces and the tone was didactic. Overall, I felt that Kuang should have worked on the novelistic format and delivered a better book, or she should have just made her point through an article. Overall, kudos for the magic-system. Yellowface: The idea of such a satire was good on paper. But the way R.F. Kuang used it to piss on criticism she has received (some of it vile, but some valid) is a choice that made it redundant and stripped the story from the potential of a more meaningful critique. I'm glad for those who could enjoy it, but I couldn't. The karen-voice of the protagonist is done in a witty way. The tone is on point. But after a certain point it got old because of the aforementioned issues with Kuang not keeping it to the industry more vaguely and making it personal. Also, her editor... don't get me started. The way past tense was used in several instances while the narrator was still in the present was throwing me off. This is obviously not her fault. When you get published by one of the big five and such slips that may be missed by the author after having spent on a text what feels like half their lives but are very visible by a fresh pair of eyes, your team is failing you.
I’m a huge fan of all of Kuang’s work, but I admit there are very valid criticism to be made about them, the stuff mentioned in those reviews aren’t them. And about that plot point in poppy war, honestly it just sounds to me like how dare a woman have autonomy and make choices about her own body. The stuff people get mad about is very amusing
I'll go out on a limb and say that woman who criticized Kuang for being "anti-women" for having Rin sterilized, is very much locked into purity culture and that being a mom is her entire life. So much so that she never discovered what she herself wanted in life, and is projecting that unrealized frustration onto a fictional character because it's a huge action of autonomy she never exercised in her own life. It's either that or she's just a girl brought up on traditional values who hasn't experienced the real world yet.
I've read two Kuang novels (Yellowface and Babel). I vaguely enjoyed Yellowface but Babel wasn't great. There wasn't a single rounded character in the entire book so I just didn't care about any of them. They were all so flat. And I really do think Kuang needs to start trusting her readers more - if you want to lecture them write a non fiction book. Good fiction writers should be able to get their views across through themes, symbolism, etc, not lectures. It really is insulting the reader's intelligence. I do hope that she matures as a writer as her career progresses because I really appreciate her imagination, but she isn't quite there as far as writing great books just yet.
4:59 Kuang did mention in an interview with a booktuber once upon a time that The Poppy War has basically the same beats as Ender’s Game. I can’t recall whose channel it was, but perhaps the “it’s nothing like Ender’s Game” reviewer was referring to that? Idk.
The real problem with her books is the hype and the way the writer is portrayed as this literary prodigy ... when in reality, she is just getting started and hasn't quite mastered the art of good character writing yet. This wouldn't be nearly as noticeable (or bothersome) without the immense hype and the expectation it creates. It's really all about marketing and making quick money instead of investing in an author and building them up more slowly. Which is sad because no one will care about these fast food books in a couple of years. Like, that yellow book is apparently already dated by making Twitter a plot point (note to the future: that was the social network currently called "X")
I've only read the poppy war. I liked the first half of the book. I started to get disappointed when the war started; for whatever reason, Rin feels like the wrong POV to give perspective for the epicness of the war. I was annoyed by the copy paste history but I could live with that. What deflated me on the book was the end. Was that supposed to be an analogue for the atom bombs but scaled up to the extreme? I feel like making it event the action of one woman really diminishes how much scientific/industrial capacity of nation it took to create those weapons. Also the end diminishes genocide in my opinion. Genocide is no the act of one person. One person can be the catalyst for genocide but the act involves a larger group of people who participate or turn a blind eye; to the point where everyone who played a part can't be realistically punished for it.
I could not have agreed more. This is my biggest issue with the book. No matter how bad the character is I would simply accept that and regard it as merely a matter of preference. But to insert real history in such a simple minded way makes me fume to no end and I personally despise her for doing that.
I have only read Babel, and I admit I was massively disappointed. Part of that is probably due to the hype around the book and the author, and some of the blame lies with what I believe to be deliberate mismarketing of the book. I can appreciate what R.F. Kuang was trying to do, and some elements of the book were brilliant, at least as concepts. Still, for me, it was a prime example of someone who is an excellent academic or a researcher not necessarily being a good storyteller. None of the major elements of any novel (the plot, the character development, the pacing, the worldbuilding) seemed like they were written by a professional novelist. Or rather, it felt like no one had been involved in the editing of this book before its publishing. I ended up giving it two stars, and I am still planning to read both The Poppy War trilogy and Yellowface, but I have pushed both a bit lower on my TBR list for now.
I didn't think it was that bad, structurally speaking. Still I wonder, could Babel's many nominations and awards be a consequence of the book's political message?
I’m still trying to convince myself to finish Babel. I liked the premise of the story and at first found the book really interesting…until it just drags on and on. At some point it just feels like it’s lecture upon lecture but not much is happening. I also didn’t really like any of the characters. I found myself just feeling angry and waiting for it to end so I dropped it. I was so close to finishing it though, that I’m thinking of actually finishing it just so that I can count it towards my reading goal for the year.
My problem with the Poppy War was mostly what for me was poor writing. There were issues with prose, character development, pacing, worldbuilding consistency, that really got in the way of me enjoying the story. There were also tone issue, the writer falling for the usual confusion between "adult as in treats heavy subject seriously" vs "adult as in juvenile humor and outrageous displays of violence". Basically I was promised Avatar But More Mature and instead I got Naruto But More Edgy. The worldbuilding was often shallow (basically I could tell what real world element everything single thing was a 1:1 calque of with the serial numbers filed), and despite the book ostensibly taking an anti-racist stance, there were some prolematic racial representations. I didn't hate it (gave it 2 and half star) but I didn't have any urge to read anything else by Kuang after that.
Because you mentioned what you did about Avatar, I'm going to throw out there that you should read The Sword of Kaigen. Avatar like magic system, but more mature. Incredible characters and plot. Very highly recommend!!
I think sometimes reviews are more negative for Kuang's books because they are soooo hyped! I certainly feel more negatively towards a book which is being talked about as amazing, find the concept interesting, expected to like it, etc than some random book I pick up at the library which ends up being disappointing. (The whole Poppy War= sci fi though like, what??)
I have only read Yellowface so far, and I liked it. The Poppy War and Babel are still on my TBR, but looking into them I was surprised to see how wide the spectrum between "the worst!!!" and "amazing" is with them. They sound interesting to me, so I guess I will see at some point where I will land. Wherever that will be, I doubt my review will be as ... wild as some of these 👀
The Poppy war is not an easy read not because it is not interesting but because it gives you fatigue since it is a heavy subject. I am betting money some people disliked it because of that more than anything else.
I mean I think the sin of Babel is that no character is well rounded or well developed. I thought all of their characterisation was incredibly shallow. I did enjoy the magic system and the various discussions on the etymology of the words. In fact I would be on of the few (most likely) to say that the footnotes were almost better than the rest of the book. lol
Loved Babel (5 star read for me), liked Yellowface (3.5/4 star), and couldn't finish Poppy War (thought the writing was juvenile and the tone confused). So...not sure where I stand with Kuang, but it seems I'm always willing to give her a try. I love her ideas.
I am with you here, I found Poppy War to be really odd in tone and narration I actually DNFed after book 2, but Babel I did enjoy. It wasn't a five star read for me but it was good. I just feel like I like her ideas and plot elements more than her execution sometimes
i've read and enjoyed all of r.f. kuang's books but i also have multiple criticisms of the writing in all of them lol i feel like the themes and ideas in her books are very strong but actually developing those ideas into fleshed-out characters and a well-paced plot is where she struggles. i also think she talks down to the reader A LOT - the footnotes in babel drove me crazy, and i could probably complain about the actual writing of that book for at least 20 mins straight, and yet it still managed to touch me emotionally and i gave it a high star rating
I actually really like Kuang as a person, and find her POV as an author really interesting but I have really not liked almost all of her books, I thought Babel was good not great, but I DNFed the Poppy War after book 2. There is just something about her writing that doesn't work for me, and leaves me wanting but I have been tempted to try Yellowface because I feel like I might enjoy her writing style outside of the fantasy genre.
I have read everything by Kuang and loved every last word, sure there are flaws but she covers subjects that are not comfortable/flavour du jour with both intelligence and passion which I find very engaging. Kuang is on my automatically buy list.
I found The Poppy War to be an utterly fascinating book. However, due to the grim-darkness of it, I just couldn't continue the series as I knew it'd be too much for me. Also, it really bothers me that people still classify this as... YA Fantasy? Then again, many people tend to do this with women in SFF, which is distressing unto itself. -_-
I loved the Poppy War books. But I can relate to some of the reviews tbh. I couldn't get over how annoying Rin was. Her motivations flip-flops around and she has 0 sense of self. Had to keep reminding myself she's just in her late teens and was a PTSD suffering war child to justify actually emphasize with her. There was just so much senselessness in her narrative that you had to fill in the blanks yourself to justify parts of her actions. And there are some very forced deaths in there just to move things along which I get - but they're unnecessarily cruel to the reader :'D
I started the first book of the Poppy war and I should have loved the theme and topic and it just fizzled out for me about 2/3rds of the way through and then when I saw the author posting about the need for "trigger warnings" I tapped out completely.
Kung Fu Panda…because of your response I had to stop the video. I was laughing out loud, hard, and I didn’t want to miss a word. Best thing all day!! Thank you!!
Right? he basically was saying he didn't like being reminded of the terrible things his country did in the past. the truth is ugly, sorry, not sorry lol??
A lot of these are just the tired and ignorant assumption that if a thing is in the book, that must mean the author endorses it, what I find interesting is that people don't assume the same thing of all the death and destruction that producers put in films
The Poppy War is THE BOOK that motivated me to not just finish my novel, but to get it published... so, it's a very important book to me. There are lots of valid criticisms out there, and I have some of my own -- but, uh, lol, some of the ones you showed here are hilarious. POPPY WAR SPOILERS: So many criticisms surrounding Rin's decision to sterilize herself don't have anything to do with Rin nor her situation. No, virtually every comment I've ever encountered about that condemns the "unnatural" practice in isolation. Stoking fears about "destroying womanhood" or whatever *in general* instead of seeing how it fits within the overall story. They'd toss the same complaint, unaltered, to ANY character in ANY book where the same thing happens. Indeed, Rin is the only girl at the academy who decides to go through with the process, and she does suffer for it, so it's not like we're painting a rosy picture here. And we're certainly not *inviting* the reader to, like, go out and get their tubes tied -- contrary to what many of those comments claim.
People who critique biases while being biased themselves are ridiculous. You can't say to an author to stop being biased if you're angry BECAUSE you're a republican and the book doesn't cater to your ideology. And if you're apolitical, what are you expecting from a book with political themes? It's highly probable that the book is going to be biased to one side or the other. You can be mad that the book's ideology is not like yours (but of course they're not going to say that because they'd look intolerant and triggered) but you can't be mad that it's biased. Not that authors think like the characters they write but whatever. "Ugh, can an author stop plastering their ideology onto their books??" No ??? Authors can do what they want ?? If I want to write a fantasy book filled with my own values I can do that ?? You can stop reading if you want. Freedom of speech, people!
@prunelle9068 I have to disagree. It's not an insult to anyone; it just potentially affects the way someone receives the book--the same way our mood and timing can affect our enjoyment of a book. I think the fact that there are over 97k ratings on Goodreads with an average of 4.01 stars means it was probably done well.
There was probably someone who said if you like Ender's game (child in military training) that you'll like Poppy War as it is a similar type of book. Obviously they aren't that similar despite this one similarity, but I suspect that was the base of the review that expected the second Ender's Game from this.
I read The Poppy War and loved the first part, but the magic system didn’t work for me and the battles scenes didn’t feel like they flowed right or something so I ended up not continuing the series. I own babel but I’ve only read a little of the beginning before I got distracted by life. Seemed well written tho so I’m still planning to pick it up when I can. Hopefully I’ll like it more. These are always fun to listen to. Haha
I haven't read any of RF Kuang's books (I know, I know lol I'm getting there) and it just surprises me how many reviewers cannot separate the author from the characters. Like just because they write a character that murders or has a political stance, does not mean RF agrees with her characters. You could write someone that completely different from you! Reviewers need to take a chill pill lol.
I've only read Babel, and it was pretty decent until the final 5th where what I thought would happen happened = meh. I'm not sure if I would read any more Kuang though.
I don't understand the hype with RF Kuang tbh, she has amazing ideas but I feel like the execution falls short. That being said, her books are three star minimum for me, I feel like a lot of one star reviews miss the entire point of her work.
I didn't really like the Poppy series lol. They were ok. The Poppy War was fine. Dragon Republic was the best of the trilogy. The Burning God was good up to a point, then trash. Reading The Poppy trilogy made me realize that I really value characters over plot. I think R.F's biggest weakness was character writing tbh. Rin was great, but every other character, aside from 3 I can think of, all had similar voices to Rin. Or if they don't, they did or said something that was too juvenile for the character she had established. I hard disagree with what these reviewers were saying, though. R.F ideas and plot and themes were strong (aside from Burning God), but her characters were my biggest gripe. I've read a couple of chapters of Babble and know the same thing was happening again. The handholding was annoying too, so I put it down. I'm gonna wait until she releases a couple of more books before I pick her up again.
Her writing is flawless compared to other fantasy novels(Fourth Wing e.g.). But in my opinion the pacing was not fast enough and the World-Building is lacking. I‘m Stuck at Page 400 and I have no desire to continue reading it. She writes good but not good enough to be this hyped… but thats just my opinion.
ughh as soon as the review said a terrible message to girls i knew what scene it was going to talk about the amount of sexism and racism in these reviews 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ THEY'RE MAKING ME TOO MAD HAHAHA
I love the Poppy War trilogy but honestly the characters were so inconsistent. Rin I get because that's the point of her character but all the characters kind of acted in whatever way furthered the plot instead of being true to their character.
I personally got so much whiplash when Kitay not only agreed to be Rin's anchor but was excited about it. I never read him like that, yes he loved knowledge but he was also not on board with the whole Phoenix thing since Rin committed genocide
I absolutely LOVE the poppy war (all the books), but I guess I should re read them since I first read those a couple years ago and maybe I'm more of a critical reader now. Babel I also enjoyed and just went with the flow about the info dumping, I guess if you just try to get the characters motivation you have a better time reading it. Now for yellowface I was having a really good time but there where moments when it got repetitive and it kinda threw me off. long story short, I guess you kinda have to read these books knowing nothing about them and just go with the flow. I did exactly that and really liked them.
I just want to say, I don't think people are being paid, but they are given arcs and such and I've seen a few reviews stating they felt compelled to write a positive review. They come back and update and say "wow I really over hyped this book at first"....so tbh it's not the author, it's just people being people lol. That's why they need accurate and well written synopsis and such on books so people know what to read. Can't base too much on reviews imo.
I think it was a potent metaphor of how much Rin was willing to sacrifice (her determination and ruthlessness) and how in patriarchal society women have to choose between womanhood and evening the playing field / career / achievement. She's told that periods will hold her back and she's already at a disadvantage (both for her gender and skin colour) and may fail exams and be expelled. She saw there were only 3 girls and 100 boys in the class because women are viewed as lesser / unsuitable and they have an uphill struggle in the school. One of them was already sidelined to become a medic. This book is meant to be about tragic choices. All the way until the very end Rin has to choose between bad and worse. She's young and indoctrinated and doesn't always know the correct answer. Sometimes there's no correct answer. I hate when people treat Poppy War as if it was a YA book with a moral lesson. It's an adult book about tragedies of war, about racism, misogyny, opium addiction ruining lives and many other serious subjects. It's not a "feelgood" escapist read.
I think my biggest gripe with the entire Poppy War Trilogy is how it decided to end. *SPOILER* Rin spends the entire series being told to give up and she REFUSES to the point where it causes death and dread for everyone else and then the book just ends with her letting herself be killed for the greater good????? nothing gets resolved by the end of the trilogy and the same things are going on just without her
I haven't read the poppy war but the reviews about the sterilisation are ridiculous, 'the author took away the thing that makes women read women' are you actually kiddinggg or just that dense, tell me you didn't get it without telling me you didn't get it. I don't even need to read tpw to get the point
I only read the TPW trilogy, and I get why people don't like the grimdarkness or Rin's descent into "villainy". That stuff's up my alley though, so I was into it. Was it without flaws? No. But also comparing it to Kung Fu Panda was def racist. Imagine the only Chinese-adjacent or martial-arts-adjacent media you've consumed is KFP and getting KFP vibes from TPW. Wild. [TPW spoilers] Also, when I read about Rin's sterilization, I was like, valid, but also worried more about the side effects of her having a dead organ inside her and sad that she didn't have access to pain meds (surely there was medicine for pain outside of opium) or just better healthcare in general, coz she also spent a month in pain afterwards. It just showed she was that desperate to stay in school and catch up with everyone else. And though I wanna get rid of my uterus too, I'd rather take the period problems over surgery and larger hormonal changes. The other books I don't think are up my alley, so i didn't read them.
I read poppy war and babel, and while the stories are well done, I felt that things just happened for shock value, not because it made sense. The author seems emotionally detached and kinda tells us stuff, kinda like an encyclopedia. I know my last argument doesnt make sense, im just not sure how to phrase it exactly. It feels as though someone with little understanding of feelings tries hard to write about complex emotions, and ends up using too much shock plot to elicit a reaction from the reader, but it all falls flat for me. The characters all come off as characters, caricatures, not actual humans.
They probably browsed for a book on the amazon web site in the scifi category and found Poppy War there (at that time). On page 3 of that section currently is a diet book and a biography of a pop singer. So it's either amazon's fault or the publisher/author doing too much SEO.
I admit RF Kuang is not the author for me and I steer clear of her books, but man did these review miss the point. I agreed with the first sentence of one of the 1 star reviews for the "Poppy War" I too thought the charcter did a 180 and it wasn't properly explained. But do you really need to explain why she wouldn't want to marry an old fart? I really loved the MC in the first part but at one point she turned into a different character abruptly and stopped making sense to me. I also think the author over explains in other parts. She's young and I'm sure her writing will continue to grow. But for now she's not my cup of tea. Yellowface was better, but also I didn't think she dug deep enough; touched on many interesting topics, but didn't have time to develop them enough.
I have only read Babel and I wanted to love it because of all the buzz or maybe just to have a reason to justify buying one of the cool looking special editions. I only had 1 character I cared about and it wasn’t the main one. As for social commentary I think based on the synopsis of the book and the tagline it wasn’t subtle what topic would be criticized in this one. I loved the premise. I didn’t love it but I understood where it was going…It wasn’t Fourth Wing so that could be the issue😂?
Okay, I feel like I'm in the minority here, but Babel really reads like a racist manifesto. Honestly, it's like the last two chapters that do it. But they just provide such a conclusive thesis statement that it's hard to ignore. I get the book is about British imperialism, and the British empire did some extremely messed up stuff, but not every white person is evil. Also, they respond to being treated poorly by racists by being racist - as if that will help anything. MLK had it right, "WHEN MY BROTHERS TRY TO DRAW A CIRCLE TO EXCLUDE ME, I SHALL DRAW A LARGER CIRCLE TO INCLUDE THEM,” Spoilers The main characters are all actually terrorists and hurt common British people that had nothing to do with the empire. Letty was ignoring, gas lit, belittled, and her points are actually totally ignored. Then, if that wasn't enough, the author character assassinats her too by having her murder a main character when he was defenceless.
I mean when a country is built on a single foundation, it can be taken down as easily as it was being built up. And tbh Letty had the opportunity to grow as a character, reflect on the past and listen to what was being said to her, but her brother dying and Ramy dying have that same symbolism representing that she didnt listen
@@mrbow50001 On the topic of the fall of Babel: So, yes, you're right the author did set up a lynch pin and the form of over reliance on Babel.We have to acknowledge that this book is not 100% allegorical to real life, but It took quite a lot more to dismantle the colonial British empire then destroying one school. On the topic of Letty: You're right, she did refuse to change. So two things on that topic: Firstly, she was right; they were planning terrorism. Other than her shooting her friend, the decisions that she made might have actually saved millions of British lives. The author keeps the harm scale of the events pretty vague, but we know a lot of people die. Secondly, Letty was ignored, her pain was downplayed, and no one would explain anything to her. If your friends murdered a teacher, and plotted to destroy a fundamental institution using violence as the primary method, I would hope that you would inform the police as well. I think her role as the other side could have been handled with a lot more nuance.
It always bugs me when people refer to supernatural or fantasy as science. I love the negative reviews that just describing a metaphor to explain your experience with reading the book.
I am really sorry but I didn’t like poopy war in that I just couldn’t get into it I read the first 100 pages and had to stop reading it because I just couldn’t get into it sorry if I offended anyone prayers and blessings for you and your husband and your beautiful and wonderful puppy 🐶 love your number one Aussie friend John ❤❤❤so sorry if I offended you or any one else
I loved Babel, but didn't care for Yellowface. I got too much "mean girl" and "backstabbing friend" that it actually put me in a bad mood while reading it. I'll stick to her fantasy. Haven't tried Poppy War yet, but I think I'll be okay based on what the reviewers were so upset over..
I love how people have different tastes in books because I am always thinking HOW can people find babel boring? It is one of the best books I ever read. And of course if someone likes short books with light topics they wont like it (which is okay!) But why pick it up then?
I struggled with the Poppy War.... they were a decent trilogy but I found most of the characters insufferable. There were some pretty incredible moments in it though.
I loved the Poppy War trilogy, which was then completely overshadowed by the brilliance that was Babel (also known as one of my favourite books ever) and now I don't ever want to pick up Poppy War again. Just because I'm so afraid it won't be as good as it was when I was new to Kuang's writing.
Spoilers for The Poppy War!! 06:00 --> I remain utterly confused by people who critique this scene as though it was meant to be empowering or an attempt at writing a Strong Female Character(TM) by removing her "female-ness" (which ... there is a whole host of rot in that idea/critique itself but we're not gonna go over it here). The way her thoughts are articulated, the way the guy she goes to for the procedure reacts, the way he PRAISES her for the decision, the way he feeds into her desperate need to be a good little soldier, the way the whole thing is framed through her abject terror of failing and being kicked out from her one lifeline to a future she wants, the swiftness with which we go from her spiraling panicked reaction to the end of the procedure, the way he mutters about how he'd basically wanted this for all of the girls in the institution ... y'all. Come on now. This was one vector, one aspect specific to the girls, of the abuse all these child-soldiers-in-training were being subjected to in order to shape them into the optimal soldier. This is institutional abuse 101. And the text treats it as such come the hell on now people. Spoilers for Babel!!!! 11:40 --> okay, this reviewer could only mean either Rami or the professor ... and the use of "well-rounded" makes me lean towards the later because he is someone who could be read as being characterized by his contradictions. In a way that Rami is not. The professor is vile ... but he's incredibly human, not some mustache twirly evil. That's my best guess.
People have different sensibilities, and it's important to note that RF Kuang has achieved global recognition. So people from diverse regions around the world will likely exhibit different responses to Rin's actions towards herself and others. I’m saying that Rin is judged harshly because she’s a girl. Having grown up in the eastern part of the world, some members of my reading group cautioned me about certain themes addressed in The Poppy War. Because they knew I grew up in a conservative household. So, recognizing that I wasn't prepared to delve into the series, I have yet to approach reading it. There's much more to consider here, including Kuang's background. Which some of these people have in their back of their minds when writing their reviews. However, delving into that topic opens up another can of worms, as it involves the author herself.
Finished the poppy wars a few days ago….hated it… now I’m scared to read Babel….I could not get pass the first book either….the first and the second half felt as if they were written by two different writers….the second half butchered my connection with Rin like where did her personality go…. And all the teachings with Jiang that took up a good portion of the first half (which I enjoyed btw) were never used we literally so much time in those classes to never use any of it in the first book and one would think the reason she committed mass gen@cide was because she was overcome by fear of the war or rage because of everything she witnessed…..but no ….she she took the ideas of a mad man as her own….and I get it we knew she was always power hungry but I feel it was just not executed right like even her anger for the betrayal by the empress did not translate for me ….I feel like I’m nuts cause everyone love this book and I cannot understand why…
You're not nuts. That's my gripe, too. I like Rin as a character, but you're right. She does things for the sake of moving the plot instead of what she would have done as a character. I forgot his name, but the guy Rin has a crush on in the 1st really bogged her character down, which didn't make sense based on her actions before she joined his group. The 2nd book has better character work, but the 3rd has the weakest character work and plot. You're not the only one. R.F ideas are great, and so are her themes, but her writing is still juvenile. Which is so weird cause she writes about really dark things, but it's sort of hard to take seriously. Which R.F. does, but her writing isn't strong enough in my opinion to handle such sensitive topics. She's talented but still has a long way to go.
I've seen quite a lot of BPOC booktubers complaining that Babel is r*cist and endorses violent mechanisms of oppression towards racialized people, which is (honestly) quite ignorant to say the least. I believe it's helpful to point out issues in literature, but when we don't have the critical tools to analyze a text, maybe we shouldn't, it's okay just to read for pleasure and personal growth. I'm all for "wokeism" but we have to face that sometimes it has gone too far, comments like the ones you showed (11:40 ish) are a clear reaction towards uncritical criticisms of real issues of race, class, ethnicity and sexual identity.
Babel is my new favourite book, 5 stars, but I gave Yellowface and The Poppy War (haven’t continued with books 2 and 3) 2 stars. My main issue with both of them was that I was very bored. When it comes to TPW, once the fantasy elements really kick in, yeah it kind of is like Kung Fu Panda then genocide 😂
I have only read Babel. And I really liked it for what it was... a historical fantasy approach to introduce concepts of linguistic theories relating to translation. And I think the book is easier to enjoy if you either are interested in this topic or have a lot of contact with translations of any type. I think it can be eye opening to some. But I get why people don't like it in general. While I don't agree with all types of criticism Babel gets I can see where people are coming. from. Spoiler: * * * * * I guess the reviewer means the professor character?
withcindy has an interesting review of Yellowface, I enjoyed the book as well but she brings up many valid and important critiques of this book
Yeah I felt kind of weird trying to criticize it but she did it really well. I think my only other complaint that she didn't have was a very personal one: somehow despite it being a very quick read, it was too long and I got bored by the end of it. it didn't bore me enough that I'd give it a 1 star review though lol
People being shocked that Babel has violence when the title is literally “the necessity of violence” is wild.
They probably thought it was a poetic metaphor or something🙄
@@jacklemm1518 I didn't like Babel because it read like a discounted Harry Potter meets hunger games. The title of Babel which refers to "Tower of Babel" is a reference to languages which the novel was about academia. It was rather a pretentious title and RF kaung is a pretentious girl. She's 20 years old or so when she wrote this having gone to major universities such as brown or Harvard, but who cares her work sucks ass. I don't understand why people like it or love it? To each their own. I found her work mean spirited, full of arrogance and a ripoff of JK rowling at times. Which is funny because she denounces JK rowling so much. She lives a very privileged life and she owes a lot to JK rowling a woman who wrote Harry Potter while on Welfare. So you she sucks.
The criticism around Rin's self-sterilization ranges from bizarre to disturbing for me. She had reasons to do it that were explained in the text. It had nothing to do with womanhood, and that one review saying that she took away "the greatest gift a woman could have" is more reflective of the reviewer than the book they claim to have read. And one character doing this does not equal the author saying this is the way we should all live. I suppose these reviewers also think George RR Martin is into incest?
I agree until that last point. I mean... even Elden Ring has an incestuous story element to it, lol. I'm joking, but I wouldn't be surprised, you know?
I haven't read the poppy war, but i agree. when i saw the reviewer called it "the greatest gift a woman could have" i immediately cringed cause it just felt like the opposite extreme of what they were complaining about which is also gross. women are more than their ability to bear children and did OP even think about how women who are unable to carry a child would feel to read that?? blech.
I so so agree with you.
I dislike a lot of her books for various reasons, but i never had an issue with self-sterilization. It makes sense in this comext.
I read Poppy War too. It was NOTHING like Pride and Prejudice. I was so disappointed.
😂😂😂😂
I always think it's hilarious when people equate the actions of the character to the views of the author. Especially a character like Rin, who is kind of angry and dumb and lost.
Endlessly frustrating when people do not realize that depiction != endorsement. "Your characters do bad things so you're in favor of bad things" is such a juvenile take by people so clearly putting on a Literary Critic hat and shoes that are way, way too big for them
Yeah, if anything I think RF Kuang went to great lengths to show us that Rin is an emotionally stunted character, and we should not at any point be completely in her corner, even if some of the impulses she acts upon are relatable. But by the end of book 1 for sure, any reader should know better than to think Rin is being portrayed as a hero in any capacity. She is the villain of her own story, and that's the point.
At this point in the conversation I'm usually telling people that one of my favorite books is American Psycho. The smart ones get the point I'm trying to make with this, the rest is probably scared of me. 😂
You are right. At the same time she went too far. Rin should be smarter based on the start and what she represents. She is too dumb later. So she fails to keep together her own main character. When it comes to decisions, Rin sometimes left sometimes right and you can't decide what will be, the character integrity fails. But that's correct: Kuang is not Rin.
The period thing: wasn’t it that her period was cripplingly painful to her and took her totally out of everything she wanted to accomplish for like a week and she was like I cannot do this again, it set me back, it was painful, I was sick. And like talked to someone who knows their stuff and made an INFORMED DECISION about her own future? Almost like a woman can be something, regardless of their period. Whatever. Lmao
I've heard that criticism of Poppy War that Rin has no motivations before and it confuses me. Sure, it never says "and this is why Rin felt she had to do this thing" blatantly, but to me it waa pretty clear that the abused orphan girl who had no control or power over her life growing up and literally tortured herself just for a chance at escaping that wants to gain power and status and be in control. Power (political and magical) = safety in Rin's mind.
I guess most of the readers who are from developed countries may find it ridiculous. In developing countries like China and India life is very difficult, competition is very high and there is social structure to make some people poor for rest of the life. So the story is very relatable to the third world perspective.
*SPOILERS FOR BABEL*
I’m almost certain the character that reviewer’s referring to is Professor Lovell. Which is wild because he definitely wasn’t the most “well rounded” and his death was a PIVOTAL moment for the story.
I was more thinking about Letty
There are way too many reviews I've seen where people feel offended by how she turned out
As someone who read the entire The Poppy War trilogy I appreciate what the author tried to do; for me, the corruption arc -was- interesting in the end because I expected it to be something quite different. That said, the books are flawed in that characters do and say things for the plot to progress, and not because it makes sense to who they are and what they have been through in the books up to that point. And Rin's motivations do flip-flop, I theorize it's because Kuang either wasn't sure what motivated Rin, or they wanted to play coy with the reader and keep up the pretence that this book is a Hero's Journey where there will be justification for Rin's actions in the end.
This trilogy tried to be something it could have never been. The attempts were made, multiple directions crafted and yet it barely was a cohesive story. Too many archetypes, contradictions etc.
Nonetheless it captured my attention and has a special place in my heart
I only read Babel and honestly that was enough for me not to pick up her other books. Her character work bothered me the most, but also her prose. At one point somewhere in the middle of the book Robin thinks something like "I will die for my friends." I remember reading that and thinking to myself, what? I honestly didn't even believe he really knew anything about them other than their ethnicity at that point. There is a lot of telling us how the characters feel instead of showing, and it read a bit more like a text book to me than a compelling story. While I'm sure that is fine for other people, I just feel like there are better written books out there that are more worth my time.
My experience with Babel was similar. By the end, I felt like I was promised more than what I was given, especially with the near-universal "6/5 stars" reviews online.
Yap. I also didn't like Babble.
The premise was great, but novel itself was so lifeless and the characters so flat.
Personally i read the "i would die for my friends" part as a very believable depiction of bonding between ostracized teens. Although I'm not sure it's the most accurate description the term traumabonding comes to mind.
I have very different relationships to all of R.F. Kuang's books. I feel that a big problem I have as someone who likes character-driven stories is that, while her stories follow characters closely, they are not character-driven or plot-driven. They are concept-driven.
The Poppy War is my favorite. I feel her prose is the weakest in it. It's clunky at times, but the characters and the arcs pulled me in despite the flawed execution and I found Rin's perspective to be powerful. In terms of the hot-topic of Rin's sterilization. I don't think it's empowering as some think, but I don't think it passes a bad message about womanhood either. Rin's decision WAS dehumanizing but its role was very specific. Rin did not think about 'after' or of how society will be reforged. She sets out to make herself a warrior and a strategist, but it's a weapon she becomes with every choice. That's part of her arc.
Babel in my opinion had the best concept. I touched upon translation theory and reading more about it when studying comparative literature so it was nice to have more background on it and seeing what Kuang was inspired from and how she shaped it. The magic-system was just fascinating to me. Unfortunately I cared about the characters only vaguely. I understood their predicament and could tell what I 'felt' for their choices and their actions logically, but I didn't REALLY feel them. They were wooden in my opinion. As for the overall, approach it took... it was a mess. The aspects about translations and lingustics can be taken from any basic course and with little extra research. They were also being repeated after a certain point. Moreover, most of the characters were mouthpieces and the tone was didactic. Overall, I felt that Kuang should have worked on the novelistic format and delivered a better book, or she should have just made her point through an article. Overall, kudos for the magic-system.
Yellowface: The idea of such a satire was good on paper. But the way R.F. Kuang used it to piss on criticism she has received (some of it vile, but some valid) is a choice that made it redundant and stripped the story from the potential of a more meaningful critique. I'm glad for those who could enjoy it, but I couldn't. The karen-voice of the protagonist is done in a witty way. The tone is on point. But after a certain point it got old because of the aforementioned issues with Kuang not keeping it to the industry more vaguely and making it personal. Also, her editor... don't get me started. The way past tense was used in several instances while the narrator was still in the present was throwing me off. This is obviously not her fault. When you get published by one of the big five and such slips that may be missed by the author after having spent on a text what feels like half their lives but are very visible by a fresh pair of eyes, your team is failing you.
"concept-driven" is such a good way to describe it
Well put. I really grapple with why I don't get on with her books, despite absolutely loving the concepts - but you've summed it up, I think.
I’m a huge fan of all of Kuang’s work, but I admit there are very valid criticism to be made about them, the stuff mentioned in those reviews aren’t them.
And about that plot point in poppy war, honestly it just sounds to me like how dare a woman have autonomy and make choices about her own body.
The stuff people get mad about is very amusing
I'll go out on a limb and say that woman who criticized Kuang for being "anti-women" for having Rin sterilized, is very much locked into purity culture and that being a mom is her entire life. So much so that she never discovered what she herself wanted in life, and is projecting that unrealized frustration onto a fictional character because it's a huge action of autonomy she never exercised in her own life.
It's either that or she's just a girl brought up on traditional values who hasn't experienced the real world yet.
the fact that SO many people resonate with Letty is both terrifying and not surprising at all.
just a testament to how well she was written.
I've read two Kuang novels (Yellowface and Babel). I vaguely enjoyed Yellowface but Babel wasn't great. There wasn't a single rounded character in the entire book so I just didn't care about any of them. They were all so flat. And I really do think Kuang needs to start trusting her readers more - if you want to lecture them write a non fiction book. Good fiction writers should be able to get their views across through themes, symbolism, etc, not lectures. It really is insulting the reader's intelligence. I do hope that she matures as a writer as her career progresses because I really appreciate her imagination, but she isn't quite there as far as writing great books just yet.
4:59 Kuang did mention in an interview with a booktuber once upon a time that The Poppy War has basically the same beats as Ender’s Game. I can’t recall whose channel it was, but perhaps the “it’s nothing like Ender’s Game” reviewer was referring to that? Idk.
The real problem with her books is the hype and the way the writer is portrayed as this literary prodigy ... when in reality, she is just getting started and hasn't quite mastered the art of good character writing yet. This wouldn't be nearly as noticeable (or bothersome) without the immense hype and the expectation it creates.
It's really all about marketing and making quick money instead of investing in an author and building them up more slowly. Which is sad because no one will care about these fast food books in a couple of years. Like, that yellow book is apparently already dated by making Twitter a plot point (note to the future: that was the social network currently called "X")
I've only read the poppy war. I liked the first half of the book. I started to get disappointed when the war started; for whatever reason, Rin feels like the wrong POV to give perspective for the epicness of the war. I was annoyed by the copy paste history but I could live with that.
What deflated me on the book was the end. Was that supposed to be an analogue for the atom bombs but scaled up to the extreme? I feel like making it event the action of one woman really diminishes how much scientific/industrial capacity of nation it took to create those weapons.
Also the end diminishes genocide in my opinion. Genocide is no the act of one person. One person can be the catalyst for genocide but the act involves a larger group of people who participate or turn a blind eye; to the point where everyone who played a part can't be realistically punished for it.
I could not have agreed more. This is my biggest issue with the book. No matter how bad the character is I would simply accept that and regard it as merely a matter of preference. But to insert real history in such a simple minded way makes me fume to no end and I personally despise her for doing that.
I have only read Babel, and I admit I was massively disappointed. Part of that is probably due to the hype around the book and the author, and some of the blame lies with what I believe to be deliberate mismarketing of the book.
I can appreciate what R.F. Kuang was trying to do, and some elements of the book were brilliant, at least as concepts. Still, for me, it was a prime example of someone who is an excellent academic or a researcher not necessarily being a good storyteller. None of the major elements of any novel (the plot, the character development, the pacing, the worldbuilding) seemed like they were written by a professional novelist. Or rather, it felt like no one had been involved in the editing of this book before its publishing.
I ended up giving it two stars, and I am still planning to read both The Poppy War trilogy and Yellowface, but I have pushed both a bit lower on my TBR list for now.
I didn't think it was that bad, structurally speaking. Still I wonder, could Babel's many nominations and awards be a consequence of the book's political message?
For me, Babel was disappointing because she didn’t trust the reader at all. Everything is spelled out excruciatingly, time, and time again.
@@mattj2118 Yes, you´re right. It didn´t occur to me at the time, but it´s true.
I’m still trying to convince myself to finish Babel. I liked the premise of the story and at first found the book really interesting…until it just drags on and on. At some point it just feels like it’s lecture upon lecture but not much is happening. I also didn’t really like any of the characters. I found myself just feeling angry and waiting for it to end so I dropped it. I was so close to finishing it though, that I’m thinking of actually finishing it just so that I can count it towards my reading goal for the year.
My problem with the Poppy War was mostly what for me was poor writing. There were issues with prose, character development, pacing, worldbuilding consistency, that really got in the way of me enjoying the story. There were also tone issue, the writer falling for the usual confusion between "adult as in treats heavy subject seriously" vs "adult as in juvenile humor and outrageous displays of violence". Basically I was promised Avatar But More Mature and instead I got Naruto But More Edgy. The worldbuilding was often shallow (basically I could tell what real world element everything single thing was a 1:1 calque of with the serial numbers filed), and despite the book ostensibly taking an anti-racist stance, there were some prolematic racial representations. I didn't hate it (gave it 2 and half star) but I didn't have any urge to read anything else by Kuang after that.
Because you mentioned what you did about Avatar, I'm going to throw out there that you should read The Sword of Kaigen. Avatar like magic system, but more mature. Incredible characters and plot. Very highly recommend!!
To the last reviewer who talked about running people over with cars, don't they know that violence is never justifiable!
Although I can think of at least one book that might cover the necessity of violence...
@@michaelbodell7740 No! Violence is never justifiable, even in revolutionary fantasy stories! Babel, one star!
Poppy War turned me off all her books for the foreseeable future.
Wow, not a single one star said how insufferable Rin is? Surprised.
I think sometimes reviews are more negative for Kuang's books because they are soooo hyped! I certainly feel more negatively towards a book which is being talked about as amazing, find the concept interesting, expected to like it, etc than some random book I pick up at the library which ends up being disappointing. (The whole Poppy War= sci fi though like, what??)
I have only read Yellowface so far, and I liked it. The Poppy War and Babel are still on my TBR, but looking into them I was surprised to see how wide the spectrum between "the worst!!!" and "amazing" is with them. They sound interesting to me, so I guess I will see at some point where I will land. Wherever that will be, I doubt my review will be as ... wild as some of these 👀
The Poppy war is not an easy read not because it is not interesting but because it gives you fatigue since it is a heavy subject. I am betting money some people disliked it because of that more than anything else.
I loved both!
I mean I think the sin of Babel is that no character is well rounded or well developed. I thought all of their characterisation was incredibly shallow. I did enjoy the magic system and the various discussions on the etymology of the words. In fact I would be on of the few (most likely) to say that the footnotes were almost better than the rest of the book. lol
Loved Babel (5 star read for me), liked Yellowface (3.5/4 star), and couldn't finish Poppy War (thought the writing was juvenile and the tone confused). So...not sure where I stand with Kuang, but it seems I'm always willing to give her a try. I love her ideas.
I am with you here, I found Poppy War to be really odd in tone and narration I actually DNFed after book 2, but Babel I did enjoy. It wasn't a five star read for me but it was good. I just feel like I like her ideas and plot elements more than her execution sometimes
i've read and enjoyed all of r.f. kuang's books but i also have multiple criticisms of the writing in all of them lol i feel like the themes and ideas in her books are very strong but actually developing those ideas into fleshed-out characters and a well-paced plot is where she struggles. i also think she talks down to the reader A LOT - the footnotes in babel drove me crazy, and i could probably complain about the actual writing of that book for at least 20 mins straight, and yet it still managed to touch me emotionally and i gave it a high star rating
I actually really like Kuang as a person, and find her POV as an author really interesting but I have really not liked almost all of her books, I thought Babel was good not great, but I DNFed the Poppy War after book 2. There is just something about her writing that doesn't work for me, and leaves me wanting but I have been tempted to try Yellowface because I feel like I might enjoy her writing style outside of the fantasy genre.
I have read everything by Kuang and loved every last word, sure there are flaws but she covers subjects that are not comfortable/flavour du jour with both intelligence and passion which I find very engaging. Kuang is on my automatically buy list.
I found The Poppy War to be an utterly fascinating book. However, due to the grim-darkness of it, I just couldn't continue the series as I knew it'd be too much for me. Also, it really bothers me that people still classify this as... YA Fantasy? Then again, many people tend to do this with women in SFF, which is distressing unto itself. -_-
Kung Fu panda... followed by genocide. LMFAO funniest one yet
11:01 this had me laughing oml I love your passion for RF Kuang lol
I loved the Poppy War books. But I can relate to some of the reviews tbh. I couldn't get over how annoying Rin was. Her motivations flip-flops around and she has 0 sense of self. Had to keep reminding myself she's just in her late teens and was a PTSD suffering war child to justify actually emphasize with her. There was just so much senselessness in her narrative that you had to fill in the blanks yourself to justify parts of her actions. And there are some very forced deaths in there just to move things along which I get - but they're unnecessarily cruel to the reader :'D
I started the first book of the Poppy war and I should have loved the theme and topic and it just fizzled out for me about 2/3rds of the way through and then when I saw the author posting about the need for "trigger warnings" I tapped out completely.
Kung Fu Panda…because of your response I had to stop the video. I was laughing out loud, hard, and I didn’t want to miss a word. Best thing all day!! Thank you!!
As an endo girlie I want that magical elixir Rin took. I think I was one of the only people that thought “good for you” during that scene 5:00
Not gonna lie, I laughed at the British guy who was offended by Babel.
Right? he basically was saying he didn't like being reminded of the terrible things his country did in the past. the truth is ugly, sorry, not sorry lol??
definitely a whoosh moment 🤣
A lot of these are just the tired and ignorant assumption that if a thing is in the book, that must mean the author endorses it, what I find interesting is that people don't assume the same thing of all the death and destruction that producers put in films
"it's not like Ender's Game" haha that's so random
The Poppy War is THE BOOK that motivated me to not just finish my novel, but to get it published... so, it's a very important book to me. There are lots of valid criticisms out there, and I have some of my own -- but, uh, lol, some of the ones you showed here are hilarious.
POPPY WAR SPOILERS:
So many criticisms surrounding Rin's decision to sterilize herself don't have anything to do with Rin nor her situation. No, virtually every comment I've ever encountered about that condemns the "unnatural" practice in isolation. Stoking fears about "destroying womanhood" or whatever *in general* instead of seeing how it fits within the overall story. They'd toss the same complaint, unaltered, to ANY character in ANY book where the same thing happens.
Indeed, Rin is the only girl at the academy who decides to go through with the process, and she does suffer for it, so it's not like we're painting a rosy picture here. And we're certainly not *inviting* the reader to, like, go out and get their tubes tied -- contrary to what many of those comments claim.
People who critique biases while being biased themselves are ridiculous. You can't say to an author to stop being biased if you're angry BECAUSE you're a republican and the book doesn't cater to your ideology. And if you're apolitical, what are you expecting from a book with political themes? It's highly probable that the book is going to be biased to one side or the other. You can be mad that the book's ideology is not like yours (but of course they're not going to say that because they'd look intolerant and triggered) but you can't be mad that it's biased. Not that authors think like the characters they write but whatever. "Ugh, can an author stop plastering their ideology onto their books??" No ??? Authors can do what they want ?? If I want to write a fantasy book filled with my own values I can do that ?? You can stop reading if you want. Freedom of speech, people!
Some people just really don't understand the satire of Yellowface.
@prunelle9068 I have to disagree. It's not an insult to anyone; it just potentially affects the way someone receives the book--the same way our mood and timing can affect our enjoyment of a book. I think the fact that there are over 97k ratings on Goodreads with an average of 4.01 stars means it was probably done well.
I think I read somewhere that poppy war is grimdark fantasy, but i dont know where you would get sci fi from😅
There was probably someone who said if you like Ender's game (child in military training) that you'll like Poppy War as it is a similar type of book. Obviously they aren't that similar despite this one similarity, but I suspect that was the base of the review that expected the second Ender's Game from this.
I agree with the teen romance take. Not because of the content, but because øf the prose. The style is very reminiscent of YA romance.
I read The Poppy War and loved the first part, but the magic system didn’t work for me and the battles scenes didn’t feel like they flowed right or something so I ended up not continuing the series. I own babel but I’ve only read a little of the beginning before I got distracted by life. Seemed well written tho so I’m still planning to pick it up when I can. Hopefully I’ll like it more. These are always fun to listen to. Haha
This is exactly where I am with the Poppy War series and then Babel, life just got in the way.
I haven't read any of RF Kuang's books (I know, I know lol I'm getting there) and it just surprises me how many reviewers cannot separate the author from the characters. Like just because they write a character that murders or has a political stance, does not mean RF agrees with her characters. You could write someone that completely different from you! Reviewers need to take a chill pill lol.
I've only read Babel, and it was pretty decent until the final 5th where what I thought would happen happened = meh.
I'm not sure if I would read any more Kuang though.
I don't understand the hype with RF Kuang tbh, she has amazing ideas but I feel like the execution falls short. That being said, her books are three star minimum for me, I feel like a lot of one star reviews miss the entire point of her work.
Agreed. Babbel had a great premise, but the novel itself was painfully mid.
I am reading Babel right now and I’m really enjoying it. Am planning on trying her other work as well.
I have all of R.f Kuang books on my TBR but her fantasy books scare me i feel like they are really long 😄 but I still want to read them so bad
I will fight anyone who doesn't like The Poppy War 😂 These reviews just scream "I didn't pay any attention to this book"
I didn't really like the Poppy series lol. They were ok. The Poppy War was fine. Dragon Republic was the best of the trilogy. The Burning God was good up to a point, then trash. Reading The Poppy trilogy made me realize that I really value characters over plot. I think R.F's biggest weakness was character writing tbh. Rin was great, but every other character, aside from 3 I can think of, all had similar voices to Rin. Or if they don't, they did or said something that was too juvenile for the character she had established. I hard disagree with what these reviewers were saying, though. R.F ideas and plot and themes were strong (aside from Burning God), but her characters were my biggest gripe. I've read a couple of chapters of Babble and know the same thing was happening again. The handholding was annoying too, so I put it down. I'm gonna wait until she releases a couple of more books before I pick her up again.
Her writing is flawless compared to other fantasy novels(Fourth Wing e.g.). But in my opinion the pacing was not fast enough and the World-Building is lacking. I‘m Stuck at Page 400 and I have no desire to continue reading it. She writes good but not good enough to be this hyped… but thats just my opinion.
@@Hi-Hi1990 right that's fine ahah. My comment might've sound a bit aggressive lmao. But the reviews are just missing the point of it all.
@@thisisnthighschoolmusical hey everyone has a different opinion. I agree the pacing is sometimes off,especially in the last book of the trilogy.
Like Rin is supposed to be a bad person she's literally based on Mao ofc she's complicated 💀
Why are people so mad when women take their bodily autonomy into their own hands? xD
ughh as soon as the review said a terrible message to girls i knew what scene it was going to talk about
the amount of sexism and racism in these reviews 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ THEY'RE MAKING ME TOO MAD HAHAHA
I don't hate her but I've tried to read every book of hers and find them mediocre at best. Very surprised by all the hype
Spoiler Warning for Words of Radiance
Adolin murders Sadeas. Therefore Brandon Sanderson condones murder. 😂
I absolutely LOVED the entire Poppy War trilogy, but I intensely dreaded Babel. I literally DNF'd that one out of boredom/frustration.
I love the Poppy War trilogy but honestly the characters were so inconsistent. Rin I get because that's the point of her character but all the characters kind of acted in whatever way furthered the plot instead of being true to their character.
I personally got so much whiplash when Kitay not only agreed to be Rin's anchor but was excited about it. I never read him like that, yes he loved knowledge but he was also not on board with the whole Phoenix thing since Rin committed genocide
I absolutely LOVE the poppy war (all the books), but I guess I should re read them since I first read those a couple years ago and maybe I'm more of a critical reader now.
Babel I also enjoyed and just went with the flow about the info dumping, I guess if you just try to get the characters motivation you have a better time reading it.
Now for yellowface I was having a really good time but there where moments when it got repetitive and it kinda threw me off.
long story short, I guess you kinda have to read these books knowing nothing about them and just go with the flow. I did exactly that and really liked them.
I just want to say, I don't think people are being paid, but they are given arcs and such and I've seen a few reviews stating they felt compelled to write a positive review. They come back and update and say "wow I really over hyped this book at first"....so tbh it's not the author, it's just people being people lol. That's why they need accurate and well written synopsis and such on books so people know what to read. Can't base too much on reviews imo.
I wonder if there are many people who have all of RFK's books? They are very different in many ways, including voice.
sorry that should be hate, not have.
Hi, what is a community tab and where can I find it?
*Potential Spoiler for Poppy Wars*
People getting mad at the sterilization of Rin are missing the point entirely.
Kind of a spoiler as Elliot mentioned... I mean I don't care because I'm not reading any Kuang but others may not want to know.
@@the_eerie_faerie_tales fair enough, it’s edited in case people care
I think it was a potent metaphor of how much Rin was willing to sacrifice (her determination and ruthlessness) and how in patriarchal society women have to choose between womanhood and evening the playing field / career / achievement. She's told that periods will hold her back and she's already at a disadvantage (both for her gender and skin colour) and may fail exams and be expelled. She saw there were only 3 girls and 100 boys in the class because women are viewed as lesser / unsuitable and they have an uphill struggle in the school. One of them was already sidelined to become a medic.
This book is meant to be about tragic choices. All the way until the very end Rin has to choose between bad and worse. She's young and indoctrinated and doesn't always know the correct answer. Sometimes there's no correct answer.
I hate when people treat Poppy War as if it was a YA book with a moral lesson. It's an adult book about tragedies of war, about racism, misogyny, opium addiction ruining lives and many other serious subjects. It's not a "feelgood" escapist read.
@@ivylilybasket I think you nailed it. The people hung up on this completely ignore the setting of the book
@@ivylilybasketLike you're spitting facts Rin's choices were supposed to be sad and tragic that's what the book is about
(Babel) I think many people find themselves to be more of a Letty - and that makes them uncomfortable.
I think my biggest gripe with the entire Poppy War Trilogy is how it decided to end. *SPOILER* Rin spends the entire series being told to give up and she REFUSES to the point where it causes death and dread for everyone else and then the book just ends with her letting herself be killed for the greater good????? nothing gets resolved by the end of the trilogy and the same things are going on just without her
So despressing :(
I agree. Hated that.
Agree, that ending doesn't make sense at all.
I haven't read the poppy war but the reviews about the sterilisation are ridiculous, 'the author took away the thing that makes women read women' are you actually kiddinggg or just that dense, tell me you didn't get it without telling me you didn't get it. I don't even need to read tpw to get the point
I only read the TPW trilogy, and I get why people don't like the grimdarkness or Rin's descent into "villainy". That stuff's up my alley though, so I was into it. Was it without flaws? No.
But also comparing it to Kung Fu Panda was def racist. Imagine the only Chinese-adjacent or martial-arts-adjacent media you've consumed is KFP and getting KFP vibes from TPW. Wild.
[TPW spoilers] Also, when I read about Rin's sterilization, I was like, valid, but also worried more about the side effects of her having a dead organ inside her and sad that she didn't have access to pain meds (surely there was medicine for pain outside of opium) or just better healthcare in general, coz she also spent a month in pain afterwards. It just showed she was that desperate to stay in school and catch up with everyone else. And though I wanna get rid of my uterus too, I'd rather take the period problems over surgery and larger hormonal changes.
The other books I don't think are up my alley, so i didn't read them.
I read poppy war and babel, and while the stories are well done, I felt that things just happened for shock value, not because it made sense. The author seems emotionally detached and kinda tells us stuff, kinda like an encyclopedia. I know my last argument doesnt make sense, im just not sure how to phrase it exactly. It feels as though someone with little understanding of feelings tries hard to write about complex emotions, and ends up using too much shock plot to elicit a reaction from the reader, but it all falls flat for me. The characters all come off as characters, caricatures, not actual humans.
Reviews of The Poppy War for me are anwser on question why tubal ligation is illegal in my country while vasectomy is absolutely fine by law… 🙄
Maybe that one person who thought The Poppy War was supposed to be scifi confused it with Iron Widow?
They probably browsed for a book on the amazon web site in the scifi category and found Poppy War there (at that time). On page 3 of that section currently is a diet book and a biography of a pop singer. So it's either amazon's fault or the publisher/author doing too much SEO.
I admit RF Kuang is not the author for me and I steer clear of her books, but man did these review miss the point. I agreed with the first sentence of one of the 1 star reviews for the "Poppy War" I too thought the charcter did a 180 and it wasn't properly explained. But do you really need to explain why she wouldn't want to marry an old fart? I really loved the MC in the first part but at one point she turned into a different character abruptly and stopped making sense to me. I also think the author over explains in other parts. She's young and I'm sure her writing will continue to grow. But for now she's not my cup of tea. Yellowface was better, but also I didn't think she dug deep enough; touched on many interesting topics, but didn't have time to develop them enough.
This video is *nothing* like Kung Fu Panda 2.
I am an R.F. Kuang number one fan. Thank you.
I'll be publishing my review of Babel this on Friday 1/12/24. Love or hate? Watch it and find out!
*Me waiting for you to read my review of Babel*
I have only read Babel and I wanted to love it because of all the buzz or maybe just to have a reason to justify buying one of the cool looking special editions. I only had 1 character I cared about and it wasn’t the main one. As for social commentary I think based on the synopsis of the book and the tagline it wasn’t subtle what topic would be criticized in this one. I loved the premise. I didn’t love it but I understood where it was going…It wasn’t Fourth Wing so that could be the issue😂?
This is why you can't comment back on Amazon 😂
Okay, I feel like I'm in the minority here, but Babel really reads like a racist manifesto. Honestly, it's like the last two chapters that do it. But they just provide such a conclusive thesis statement that it's hard to ignore. I get the book is about British imperialism, and the British empire did some extremely messed up stuff, but not every white person is evil. Also, they respond to being treated poorly by racists by being racist - as if that will help anything. MLK had it right, "WHEN MY BROTHERS TRY TO DRAW A CIRCLE TO EXCLUDE ME, I SHALL DRAW A LARGER CIRCLE TO INCLUDE THEM,”
Spoilers
The main characters are all actually terrorists and hurt common British people that had nothing to do with the empire.
Letty was ignoring, gas lit, belittled, and her points are actually totally ignored. Then, if that wasn't enough, the author character assassinats her too by having her murder a main character when he was defenceless.
I mean when a country is built on a single foundation, it can be taken down as easily as it was being built up. And tbh Letty had the opportunity to grow as a character, reflect on the past and listen to what was being said to her, but her brother dying and Ramy dying have that same symbolism representing that she didnt listen
@@mrbow50001
On the topic of the fall of Babel: So, yes, you're right the author did set up a lynch pin and the form of over reliance on Babel.We have to acknowledge that this book is not 100% allegorical to real life, but It took quite a lot more to dismantle the colonial British empire then destroying one school.
On the topic of Letty: You're right, she did refuse to change. So two things on that topic: Firstly, she was right; they were planning terrorism. Other than her shooting her friend, the decisions that she made might have actually saved millions of British lives. The author keeps the harm scale of the events pretty vague, but we know a lot of people die. Secondly, Letty was ignored, her pain was downplayed, and no one would explain anything to her. If your friends murdered a teacher, and plotted to destroy a fundamental institution using violence as the primary method, I would hope that you would inform the police as well. I think her role as the other side could have been handled with a lot more nuance.
These reviews make me want to read these books even more. And, ummm, New Yorker cartoons tend to be pretty good, I think.
It always bugs me when people refer to supernatural or fantasy as science. I love the negative reviews that just describing a metaphor to explain your experience with reading the book.
9:16 Professor Lovell, is that you?
I am really sorry but I didn’t like poopy war in that I just couldn’t get into it I read the first 100 pages and had to stop reading it because I just couldn’t get into it sorry if I offended anyone prayers and blessings for you and your husband and your beautiful and wonderful puppy 🐶 love your number one Aussie friend John ❤❤❤so sorry if I offended you or any one else
I loved Babel, but didn't care for Yellowface. I got too much "mean girl" and "backstabbing friend" that it actually put me in a bad mood while reading it. I'll stick to her fantasy. Haven't tried Poppy War yet, but I think I'll be okay based on what the reviewers were so upset over..
I love how people have different tastes in books because I am always thinking HOW can people find babel boring? It is one of the best books I ever read. And of course if someone likes short books with light topics they wont like it (which is okay!) But why pick it up then?
1 star reviews are always funny 😅
I struggled with the Poppy War.... they were a decent trilogy but I found most of the characters insufferable. There were some pretty incredible moments in it though.
I loved the Poppy War trilogy, which was then completely overshadowed by the brilliance that was Babel (also known as one of my favourite books ever) and now I don't ever want to pick up Poppy War again. Just because I'm so afraid it won't be as good as it was when I was new to Kuang's writing.
The amount of hyperbole in some of these comments is very creative! 😂
If I had to compare The Poppy War to any cartoon it would have been Mulan. Which I also love.
Spoilers for The Poppy War!!
06:00 --> I remain utterly confused by people who critique this scene as though it was meant to be empowering or an attempt at writing a Strong Female Character(TM) by removing her "female-ness" (which ... there is a whole host of rot in that idea/critique itself but we're not gonna go over it here). The way her thoughts are articulated, the way the guy she goes to for the procedure reacts, the way he PRAISES her for the decision, the way he feeds into her desperate need to be a good little soldier, the way the whole thing is framed through her abject terror of failing and being kicked out from her one lifeline to a future she wants, the swiftness with which we go from her spiraling panicked reaction to the end of the procedure, the way he mutters about how he'd basically wanted this for all of the girls in the institution ... y'all. Come on now. This was one vector, one aspect specific to the girls, of the abuse all these child-soldiers-in-training were being subjected to in order to shape them into the optimal soldier. This is institutional abuse 101. And the text treats it as such come the hell on now people.
Spoilers for Babel!!!!
11:40 --> okay, this reviewer could only mean either Rami or the professor ... and the use of "well-rounded" makes me lean towards the later because he is someone who could be read as being characterized by his contradictions. In a way that Rami is not. The professor is vile ... but he's incredibly human, not some mustache twirly evil. That's my best guess.
2:40 what girl want to marry a old man lol
Ooo I like salty Elle 😂 did you read babel? I know Roger hated it, but I’m curious about it
I wished there was more of an actual thoughtful reviews in here, rather than.. well.. this.
People have different sensibilities, and it's important to note that RF Kuang has achieved global recognition. So people from diverse regions around the world will likely exhibit different responses to Rin's actions towards herself and others. I’m saying that Rin is judged harshly because she’s a girl.
Having grown up in the eastern part of the world, some members of my reading group cautioned me about certain themes addressed in The Poppy War. Because they knew I grew up in a conservative household. So, recognizing that I wasn't prepared to delve into the series, I have yet to approach reading it.
There's much more to consider here, including Kuang's background. Which some of these people have in their back of their minds when writing their reviews. However, delving into that topic opens up another can of worms, as it involves the author herself.
Finished the poppy wars a few days ago….hated it… now I’m scared to read Babel….I could not get pass the first book either….the first and the second half felt as if they were written by two different writers….the second half butchered my connection with Rin like where did her personality go…. And all the teachings with Jiang that took up a good portion of the first half (which I enjoyed btw) were never used we literally so much time in those classes to never use any of it in the first book and one would think the reason she committed mass gen@cide was because she was overcome by fear of the war or rage because of everything she witnessed…..but no ….she she took the ideas of a mad man as her own….and I get it we knew she was always power hungry but I feel it was just not executed right like even her anger for the betrayal by the empress did not translate for me ….I feel like I’m nuts cause everyone love this book and I cannot understand why…
You're not nuts. That's my gripe, too. I like Rin as a character, but you're right. She does things for the sake of moving the plot instead of what she would have done as a character. I forgot his name, but the guy Rin has a crush on in the 1st really bogged her character down, which didn't make sense based on her actions before she joined his group. The 2nd book has better character work, but the 3rd has the weakest character work and plot. You're not the only one. R.F ideas are great, and so are her themes, but her writing is still juvenile. Which is so weird cause she writes about really dark things, but it's sort of hard to take seriously. Which R.F. does, but her writing isn't strong enough in my opinion to handle such sensitive topics. She's talented but still has a long way to go.
Had the same experience. I ended up disliking Rin too much to read the rest of the series.
I've seen quite a lot of BPOC booktubers complaining that Babel is r*cist and endorses violent mechanisms of oppression towards racialized people, which is (honestly) quite ignorant to say the least. I believe it's helpful to point out issues in literature, but when we don't have the critical tools to analyze a text, maybe we shouldn't, it's okay just to read for pleasure and personal growth. I'm all for "wokeism" but we have to face that sometimes it has gone too far, comments like the ones you showed (11:40 ish) are a clear reaction towards uncritical criticisms of real issues of race, class, ethnicity and sexual identity.
Babel is my new favourite book, 5 stars, but I gave Yellowface and The Poppy War (haven’t continued with books 2 and 3) 2 stars. My main issue with both of them was that I was very bored.
When it comes to TPW, once the fantasy elements really kick in, yeah it kind of is like Kung Fu Panda then genocide 😂
why didn't rf kuang copy Richard 'Stephen king' Bachman?
I've only read Babel and I had a lot of problems with it. Wouldn't say hate by any means, but did not live up to the hype
I have only read Babel.
And I really liked it for what it was... a historical fantasy approach to introduce concepts of linguistic theories relating to translation.
And I think the book is easier to enjoy if you either are interested in this topic or have a lot of contact with translations of any type. I think it can be eye opening to some.
But I get why people don't like it in general. While I don't agree with all types of criticism Babel gets I can see where people are coming. from.
Spoiler:
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I guess the reviewer means the professor character?