For Invoke Duplicity: because of how the rules for movement and actions in 5e work, and because this is an illusion (and therefore has no physical mass), you can create the illusion, then move into the same space as it (so overlap is a thing). Then, while in that square, use your bonus action to move the illusion, and continue your movement. There is now no way for any reasonable GM to say anyone could possibly tell which is which. You can also do this in melee. You don't provoke opportunity attacks for moving *around* an enemy, so you can do the same thing in melee. Move in with part of your movement, attack, use your bonus action to move the illusion to your space (note: you can move it to any space you can see, not any unoccupied space), then use the rest of your movement to move to the side. There is, again, no way for the enemy to be sure of which one of you hit them.
Basically, even with an asshole GM, you have the flexibility to overrule any reasonable argument against it. And if they make unreasonable arguments, honestly, find a new GM.
"For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space..." To me, that is the main selling point of the Trickery Domain. All of your touch spells are now essentially ranged spells. That and the ability to turn your clanky fighter into a stealth machine are the reasons to pick this domain if you are so inclined.
A thing to note about the domain spells: only one of the Trickery cleric's domain spells is on the Cleric spell list. One. Out of 10. That means 9 new options other clerics just plain don't have, good or bad. Only the Nature and Forge Domains get that. Every other class has 4-5 cleric spells (so just about half) on their domain lists. And as you said, Trickery's list is easily the best domain spell list. Bar none. Forge is probably second (and of note, a lot of people think Forge is the best domain).
I'm playing DnD for the first time ever in..... 3 days. I decided to go with a trickery dex-based Aarakocra cleric. I have no clue what I'm doing, but I'm excited!!
We didn’t make it through our whole campaign unfortunately, people couldn’t really make it to sessions so it fizzled out ): I haven’t tried again, but I need to! The few sessions I did play, I had an absolute blast.
When it comes to illusions I disagree with dungeon masters who have difficulty with illusions. They exist for a reason, to sway the stupid. Dm meta gaming through a mob is just as bad as players doing it. Yep you created a perfect version of yourself. Many creatures are not going to understand what it is and take rounds of combat to figure it out. Play the creature not yourself in game. My wizard rolled poorly on a check once and didn't know much about Aboleths. Your creatures can be morons too at times.
Excuse me, everyone from 2 years in the future knows that a Lizardfolk Paladin is the best monk in 5e, since you can smite on your bites. Even better if you're a Lizardfolk-turned-Dhampir, since then you're standing on a wall or grappling the opponent while dragging them underwater, regenerating while you bite. The way of the bite fist Monk, as it has been called, is a flat upgrade over most monks.
Well presented, as usual. I'm so glad you're hammering on the "you're a spell caster, it's what you do" part. I try to talk about this with several different classes, and everyone wants to swing a weapon and compare dice. I'm like, 'GUYS! You played a caster class. Cast a spell, and quit comparing hammer sizes!" Sort of off topic, but I find it hard to conjure up a scenario where any of the primary casters is actually better off using a weapon than casting a spell, past character level 3. As soon as you get those second level slots, casting gets good and you finally have enough slots to not be miserly. By character level 5, only marathon paces will find you without a useful slot. By character level 7, you should have something useful to cast every single time there is an obstacle to the party.
A few things that confuse me about the Trickery cleric: I feel like they needed at least one more skill proficiency, probably chosen (or chosen for you) from the DEX or CHA skill list. I'm also surprised that they don't get access to Minor Illusion, Silent Image, etc. Prestidigitation would also be a great spell for a Trickery themed character. Heck, just let them grab a free bard cantrip or two, and they can pick up Vicious Mockery or Mage Hand or Friends instead. Or, alternatively, append the bard cantrips to the cleric list, so you still get the regular number of cantrips but can now choose either bard or cleric cantrips. I guess it just feels like it's hard to complete the Trickery theme when you're locked out of so many things that would be perfect for a trickster type of character.
I'm playing a gnome tryckery-thief multiclass. With the variant gnome, I have minor illusion. Pretty fun character, can't wait for lvl 6 of Cleric and 3 in thief, to go invisible and run away with a bonus action. Also, since I'm small, I can directly Walk behind creatures as bonus action (with disingage) and get free advantage from flanking. Also, at lvl 10 (7 CLR and 3 thief), I can have Xanathar gnome feat to turn invisible in response to damage, with the normal extra invisibility from Cleric lvl 6, Ward against death and dimension door I Will be absolutely unkillable. Also, during fights I can have the lvl 2 Naruto's Copy jutsu and Blink. I wanted to do this build, and planned It for a week. Then I realized, a wizard can do most of that. And can also change spells for other builds. And also has fireball, and can be tanky with the right subclass. Also, I have 7 con, 7 str, 9 char, 18 int, 13 wisd and dexterity. 12 hp at lvl 3, hard mode Is on, almost all enemies at all lvls can down me First round. The dark souls experience of D&D
I was skeptical of the video's premise, but it's compelling to give more clout to an archetype's spell list rather than abilities. Thanks for the video.
I think it may even be better than how you are rating it, because the level 1 combination of Charm Person while disguised self'ed is nuts, and you are getting the exact two spells you need for that combination.
Agreed. As it explicitly says in the PHB description, "They prefer subterfuge, pranks, deception, and theft rather than direct confrontation." It's not a lesser war domain cleric, it's a trickster. Personally, I think it leans too far toward a Rogue and would be more flavorful and effective in embracing the illusionist archetype, but it's fun and useful in both directions.
I love your guides, always interesting. Could you, where appropriate, use the same colour system (Blue, Green, Purple, Red etc) as per your guides to indicate your view on the Potency of a spell or ability when the text flashes on screen. It would be a cool thematic choice and a useful call back to the style that you used so well :) Keep it up!
I have to give you big thank you, I've been reading your guides for years. After I read your wizard guide I realized how powerful they were even at level 1.
Forge domain is still overall my favorite :p having early access to magic weapons, heat metal and the ability to duplicate items through rituals is awesome.
Excellent work. I will note that I main Cleric, so I want to point out a couple things: 1. On the Ranged Spell vs Melee issue, most domains I'll agree that the ranged spell is vastly superior in most cases. However, on Tempest and War, Melee is a stronger option. With War, you get up to 5 bonus melee attacks per day, essentially improving the viability of melee along with being able to almost guarantee a hit (Channel Divinity for +10 to hit), and Tempest not only gives Thunder Damage (rarely resisted) and a Wis/day retaliate as a reaction, but also can maximize both effects' damage with Channel. I feel that melee cleric is always underrated, and on my Goliath Cleric, it was huge purely because I chose to use a hard hitting melee weapon. 2. On the Dispel effect of Arcane, if you buff an ally (something quite useful) and they get hit with a strong debuff, the ability has the added bonus of not undoing your buffs, where Dispel would shut down all spells, beneficial or no. This does make this ability stronger overall. 3. Trickery isn't the worst by far IMO, because good domain spells plus a couple useful tricks is always better than Nature or Healing. Overall, excellent work, and keep it up
1: Yes, I agree. Not saying melee Clerics are terrible, I recently made a build guide for a melee Nature Cleric. I just tend to favor cantrips for the reasons I mention in the video, but it's not black and white for sure. 2: I didn't think of that. Good point. 3: I actually like the Nature domain. docs.google.com/document/d/1K2kKOFIFin_zSzgXDCx0_UGcGqtJRSsCWVW5mOc3Mxk/edit#
@@TreantmonksTemple 1. True. May just be my preference, but I like to have a heavy instrument to retaliate against anyone who does want to snuggle me harshly. 2. Does it make the ability better? No. But it makes it an efficiency option in certain cases. 3. My bad. Never been huge on them. Former 3.5 Druid main (that's our territory, son!), and while no single domain is truly horrid, Nature really is trying to be pretend druid when they could have gone in a slightly different direction.
Dispel doesn't shut down buffs. It just ends ONLY ONE effect on ONLY ONE creature, so if creature has bless, slow and it is poisoned - it only can remove Bless OR Slow.
I am my party's hardiest PC(AC/HP) and the only Cleric, so I often cast my Bless/Spirit Guardians and just run up-front and take the Dodge Action instead of attacking. I figure this makes me better at tanking and more likely to keep my Concentration. If the fight seems tough, I can still use Spiritual Weapon as a Bonus Action. I don't know if this Dodging of mine is great strategically, but I have been much better at keeping Concentration than when I used to just Attack. I should mention that most of my party are somewhat of "glass cannons".
The Dodge action, very smart. The best way to keep concentration is to not make saving throws. A Trickery Cleric can also throw on a mirror image for a similar tactic. I will be covering this in part 2.
I really enjoyed you talking through the features and comparing it to the other subclasses. I've enjoyed Cleric before but you really made me understand it better on what to really look for instead of the shiny subclass features that the Domain gives. The spell list despite being central of the gameplay of a full caster was for some reason a thing I only glanced at.
I strongly agree with this video, and I realise I've been ruling wrong on invoke duplicity, allowing the cleric in one of my groups to concentrate on a spell and have the duplicate active at the same time. It's been really useful a couple of times, but definitely not broken, and it means the ability sees a lot more play, which I think is fun. (I don't see it ever being used in combat beyond 4th level, except in really niche circumstances). I agree that the intention is probably that it uses concentration, but I think the wording is really poor, as it only states that it "ends if you loose concentration(as if concentrating on a spell)", but doesn't directly state that it requires concentration, so I missed it anyway xD
This is a really old comment, but just for posteriority to those who read similar wordings: this wording is actually the very clear and non-ambiguous, because when you cast a spell that requires concentration you automatically lose concentration on whatever you were already doing. So when a feature states that you lose the benefit when you lose concentration, that directly implies you cannot cast a concentration spell whilst it is online.
a lot of people (DMs and players alike) forget that it says 'perfect illusion'... 'PERFECT' that leaves no room for misinterpreting how this illusion is perceived and how it works and unlike many other illusions that allow for the use of an 'ACTION' to make an INT check to determine if you believe the illusion or not... this 'perfect' illusion just works
For me it is similar to what you said in that it depends on the players and the DM. Wargamer style DMs usually focus on the numbers and seem to lack imagination. Some how making monsters target the real despite another, the duplicate, perceivably behaving like an actual combatant and the source from where spells are coming from. Minor illusion is in the same boat in that an enemy, although having no reason to believe the illusion to be anything other than the real thing, will some how run right through it.
chainer8686 I think it’s fair to say that the enemies will get confused once, IF they did not physically see the duplicate being cast. And even then I would say it’s fair that they’ll swing once and realize it’s an illusion. This is all assuming they know nothing about the Cleric. So basically in terms of combat it’s an ability that, if you preemptively cast it, will absorb 1 hit from 1 guy. Seems like the Cleric is better off just casting Bless if you get the chance to pre-buff at all.
I mean all you have to do for invoke duplicity is run to the same spot as your duplicate then use your bonus action to continue running as you and the attackers no longer know which one is real again 🤷♂️ you can just keep doing that and mixing it up as needed
Don’t forget the scouting value of polymorph. You can change into a common creature for the area and just wander around and listen. Also, the spell has no requirement for the polymorph creature to stay in range of the caster, the caster just needs to concentrate. A trickery cleric can just change his Wanted Poster friend into a horse and just ride out of town, or ride into town on his rogue friend/horse so there is no record of his being there. Going to the ball with your rogue friend polymorphed into an exotic parrot who gets sent “home” later is a great way to get past all the guards.
Quite literally the only thing I would do to "fix" trickery cleric is change Divine Strike to psychic damage or allow the player to choose Potent Cantrips.
@@SuperYoshikong that would certainly be a fun thing, and I wouldn't be oppressed to a trickery cleric getting access to it, but I don't think it's necessary for making them feel up to par. I personally have allowed one of my players to have the cloak of shadows last a minute so it feels less pointless. I'm really open to any discussions of tweaking that a player would like.
I am currently playing a Trickery Cleric in a campaign. Next to me there is only one other player who is playing a rogue. We make a really great team. The rogue does the majority of the stealth work, and nails it because of my clerics abilities. We are a thieving powerduo.
Regarding illusion abilities and whether enemies are fooled: if I don't think the circumstances would have the NPC either automatically believe or disbelieve that the illusion is real, I have them make a skill check (Perception, Insight, or Investigation, depending on circumstances) against the player character's spell save DC, or make the player do a Deception check. It depends.
Well, from another tactical standpoint, you can still use the duplicate to deliver beneficial touch attacks to those in melee, without entering melee yourself. I know it's not the biggest OMG thing in the universe, but it's not nothing.
The illusion spell/DM discretion thing is true. I had an idea to use minor illusion in conjunction with find familiar to let it flank with the benefits of a cloak of displacement. It works.
idear: (would this work???) 1. Disgues as another caster teammate all the time. And walk besides him. 2. Fight begins, cast invoke duplicity. 3. Cast mirror image. Let you caster dd melt everthing. GG
I only disagree with the argument that since the Arcana Domain's Channel Divinity is not that much better than Dispel Magic, the Trickery Domain's invisibility, which is slightly better than a Disengage action, is almost its match. Dispel Magic is a limited class resource that can solve massive problems, while every character can disengage as an action. Still, this being the only point I disagree with means that you did an amazing job opening my eyes to the ways in which certain cleric features are underpowered (all 8th-level features, for instance). Martial Arts proficiency is somewhat useful at lower levels, but, like you, I also preferred to play my Trickery Cleric wielding only a shield, and I love him to bits.
There are a few videos I'd love to see from you. One is about the more advanced possibilities of magic. Things you can do with simulacra, summonings and bindings, or any combinations of spells that allow you to do really fantastic stuff at higher levels. This could include interplay between high level casters, like divination and protections against it. Another is a summary of what all the classes do and how to get value out of them, describing each class's strengths and roles, maybe with any interesting notes about subclasses. Basically a video with very, very condensed versions of your Wizard guide for each class. Love your content!
My intent is to focus on subclasses for awhile, however, the future is a blank slate right now. I'm getting lots of ideas from people, which should keep me busy for a long time. I'm having a ton of fun with this!
It appears some people are hung up on the title of “Trickery” for this domain. This is not a domain for thieves and backstabbers, it’s a domain for tricksters and deceivers. Loki is the classic archetype, but every culture has them. The class abilities and spell list fit that type, charming people, illusions, disappearing instantly, changing shape, using deceit as a defense. The flavor text pushes you in the direction of gods of rogues and thieves, but that’s not really right. A trickster doesn’t steal for profit, they steal for disruption, for mischief. Think Robin Hood, Puck, Bugs Bunny moreso then dedicated thieves
One of the things I tend to do on a *lot* of my Non-Arcana Clerics is getting Magic Initiate: Druid for Thorn Whip, Druidcraft, and a 1st level spell (Usually Faerie Fire due to it's overall usefulness) due to the Cleric's lack of an Attack Roll based Damage Cantrip, in addition Thorn Whip allows you to pull enemies into your Spirit Guardians for Super-Happy-Fun-Time~!
I actually love trickery cleric and horizon walker split. So 5/5 split at level 10 and 9 cleric/11 ranger at 20. Mainly because the trickery spells are freaking awesome, the teleporting of ranger is sweet and i do not use spiritual weapon (i know its a geeat spell but rangers have a huge BA demand). For a melee build it is really fun and quite effective (especially because planar warrior actually gets some use out of divine strike). For exploration the stealth boost is very good and because many of the spells dont require concentration you have great combat options to boost survivability. Duplicity is really nice to lure ppl and you can actually lay down ambushes with stuff like invoke duplicity and thaumaturgy. It is a great balancrd build and ffun in and out of combat. And because rangers often dump Cha you can also benefit from charm person to get some RP moments rolling more easily. Only gripe i have with trickery is that invoke duplicity eats your concentration. It would a very nice combo to have invoke duplicity active while using spirit guardians at its position, to lure enemies towards it and then deal damage without being in the line of fire.
One of the real-life things that were common amongst warriors was the sword knot, which was used to keep a warrior from losing their weapon if it was knocked out of their hand. Something like that might also work so that you could cast a spell by dropping your weapon, casting the spell, then grab it again. Thoughts? Thank God for Blessed Strike.
Before this video I never really payed attention to the domain cleric spells, I’m personally a fan of tempest before this video never saw Polymorph of all spells on the trickery this video really swayed my opinion. Good job as always Treantmonk, keep up the good work!
The domain spell are what make Tempest so good. Destructive Wave is normally only accessible to high level paladins. Despite being the same level as Flame strike, it does more damage with a better damage type over a much larger area and is party friendly to boot.
Christopher McKee But the fact that Tempest doesn’t get Lightning Bolt boggles my mind. Better to just go Storm Sorcerer with 2 levels of Tempest, since then you’d even get Chain Lightning.
Christopher McKee The point is you can’t use Destructive Wrath on Destructive Wave. Destructive Wave is definitely the stronger spell overall, but it does 35 dmg on average, whereas a level 5 Lightning Bolt with Destructive Wrath does a flat 60 dmg. Not to mention it being the most on-theme spell for a Tempest Cleric.
@@M0ebius what are you talking about, you can definitely use destructive wrath with destructive wave. It only affects half the damage, but it is still worth it. Also, IMO a spell that combines thunder and radiant damage is about as iconic as it gets for a tempest CLERIC. Sure, you can squeeze 12.5 more damage on average out of a maxed out lightning bolt, but destructive wave deals 2 better damage types over a bigger area and is party friendly.
I rolled a rogue (mastermind) & T-Cleric build to get dual ranged help actions & bless. I've been making him the amplifier for increasing the odds to hit for all my teammates. At 4th level rogue I'm going to take the feat ritualist, and find familiar for a third help action per round. The ability to cast disguise self, then use the negative side of charm person at level 2 (1lvl rogue + 1lvl cleric) is a real hoot. I would love any pointers anyone else could throw at me, as I'm not that clever with the mechanics. Great video, +1
Thank you my friend! I agree that T-Cleric + Rogue works pretty well as a multiclass. I'm a spell-hog though, don't like to multiclass my spellcasting away...
I gotta say, I prefer this style to the one you switched to for later guides. Having the first portion where you talk in general about the build really helps me understand where the build is going and why
There was a lot more to talk about here. Nobody thinks the Sorlock or the Soradin is underrated. This one I was pretty much against the general consensus, so I felt that was a good place to start. There aren't any more subclasses I think are so underrated, there are other things though. Next one I will tackle is with a spell I find underrated, hope you'll check it out...
Thanks a lot for the reply! You always have some unique insight on your video topic, I'm definitely going to watch all of your videos. Using the Soradin video for example, had it been more clear in the first 15 min or so that the build peaks at 12th level, or that there was that neat fear synergy, I would have made a point to watch it in full before the level 12 oneshot I played in last week. Having that sort of high-level information (the "unique insight" I watch for) interspersed with the low-level information of which spells to take at which level (which I follow much more loosely) was a less engaging format, at least for me personally. This is just a small nitpick to otherwise great content so I don't mean to come off too critical.
A bit late on this, but I'm currently playing a Loxodon Trickery Cleric and took the Poisoner feat so my Divine Strike is actually useful because I ignore resistances to the damage. Obviously this feat came way after this video, just popping in 😂
The illusion duplicate of yourself is great, put him on the other side of the battlefield and deliver heal spells to whoever needs them. If your clone draws 1 or 2 attacks too that’s just the icing on the cake.
@@M0ebius Let me give you a hypothetical scenario: You are a 3rd level Trickery Cleric with both Healing word and Cure Wounds prepared. You Invoke Duplicity in melee with the BBG hoping to pull some attacks away from the fighter, but unfortunately, the fighter goes down. You have a Spiritual Weapon up. It's your turn, do you cast Healing Word or Cure Wounds?
Treantmonk's Temple Yes I agree Invoke Duplicity is not completely useless. For everyone else it’s cantrip/attack into Healing Word for 2 less HP and roughly the same damage. It’s virtually the same outcome. The difference is whether or not your Invoke Duplicity actually tanked any hits. There’s nothing mechanically that said you would and the BBG just saw you summon this thing. If we’re generous the BBG takes 1 shot, realizes it’s fake, and proceed to wail on the fighter. End result is you premptively spent an Action to potentially prevent a single shot, which might or might not have landed in the first place. Everyone else would’ve just used their Action to attack/cantrip or cast a spell. Best case scenario is you roughly break even with any other Cleric. Worst case scenario you are behind 1 Action.
I think Trickery Domain is most useful multiclassing into Arcane Trickster Rogue. Invoked Duplicity being able to cast Booming Blade is a great battlefield control and distraction because if your DM isn't metagaming and going after your illusion that is hampering mobs, then you are doing your job as an ultimate trickster.
And now after Tasha's, a lot of the Trickery domain features that were criticized can be swapped out anyway; Harness Divine Power can be used if there's no opportunity for Invoke Duplicity and the terrible poison based Divine Strike can be swapped for Blessed Strike.
Dropping weapon on the ground and then picking it up from the ground could easily be reasoned to be faster than sheathing and drawing a weapon. A few years ago I bought a relatively cheap sword and sheath, and found it much easier to 'let go' of the sword and then 'pick it up' than to 'sheath it'. It is much faster to drop and pick up a sword than to put it away properly. I imagine that a skilled warrior character could easily decide that it was in their best interests to drop the sword (and risk the enemy picking it up) and try to recover it later so that they could perform an epic battle winning feat.
Blessing of the trickster is an amazing ability standalone that doesn't wear with age. Every stealth mission the rogue / monk takes in the game is SIGNIFICANTLY easier with one spammable ability.
Also, a rogue who uses the cunning action stealth/attack with advantage cycle in melee will do significantly more damage if boosted with this ability. It's a signficant buff.
Nice video. I hope the next guide will deal with the Druid. Or, better yet, THE WIZARD! This is Treantmonk, after all. We all know what class guide everybody waits for.
@@FelineElaj Valor bard is next. I'm going to be tackling subclasses. A Wizard video would be way too long, and lets face it, it's material that I have covered before. However, I will eventually get into some wizard subclasses.
As someone who main's a trickery domain cleric, the combination of inflict wounds and invoke duplicity is DEVASTATING at low levels. That advantage is incredible. Being able to set up the duplicity and then drop 3d10 damage on an enemy is awesome. One of the first boss fights I entered with him, I rolled high initiative and hit first. I critted and hit for 57 damage, killing the goblin leader. How can you say that inflict wounds isn't good?
@@TreantmonksTemple i think that is more class specific though. For example, druids have a lot of area of effect spells. Clerics more often are single target. Beyond that, I find that having the single target blast at first level is a help more often than not. A lot easier to not hit allies when you aren't using aoe spells. Thanks for replying though! I enjoy seeing someone for one having good things to say about the trickery domain. I picked it for my first ever character, having no clue how clerics usually were played. It was a learning experience!
Invoke duplicity is a minor ability? That's... the only reason I'd consider playing this domain. And maybe their spell list. But Invoke duplicity is minor? It's the entire cornerstone of the class concept. To defend this class as "good" and call it's major defining ability "minor" is just odd to me.
Cloak of shadows is under-rated because everyone reads just "one round" But you become visible at the end of the next round, if you need to make a hasty retreat, it gives you effectively 2 rounds to do it. cast cloak of shadows, move your max, next turn move your max, and dimension door.
They always say 1 round of invisibility but it really is like a round and a half almost two rounds *end of next turn* you still have movement, free action and bonus action if you use it first. Then you get a whole round to set yourself up for when you pop back at the end of the round.
saying “don’t use it” is an awful defense for a entire feature of a subclass. there’s nothing wrong with admitting that the writers messed up on divine strike. the problem with divine strike isn’t just that it’s situational, it’s that in comparison with other cleric subclasses it’s horrendous.
Most of the complaints about this subclass have been mitigated post tashas with harness divine power, and blessed strikes giving improved options for channel divinity and divine strike. Which would make this easily the best subclass for Clerics but of course now we have the peace and twilight domain.... whelp.
Glad I found this video to affirm my choice. My character is a con artist pretending to be a cleric, that was blessed by a trickery god and made into a real cleric :D
Honestly the whole "drop and pick up weapon" thing is done better by "drop weapon, draw another weapon." Same free/interactive economy but now it makes more sense. Plus with how much carrying capacity 5E has you can carry 5 maces or 5 shortswords on your person with ease. Also is Spirit Guardians really a good spell to be throwing around? Because it's a concentration spell and when you cast one of those in combat *everyone* is gonna jump on you until you lose the spell and unless you've spent the two feats that boost concentration you will drop it after a turn or two unless you get lucky, at least from what I've seen.
Excellent job on the analysis, you changed my mind about the Trickery Cleric, although I still think Light is the best domain (Bc of the Channel Divinity)
I liked this point made about the value of the domain spell list for the cleric. Which other domains would you rate highly based just on the spells the domain list gives? Light? Forge?
The same logic applies to Paladin spell lists. Crown Paladins are hilarious when you get Spirit Guardians on a heavily armored/good constitution melee PC with Shield Master.
Well, I think the Trickery Cleric is far and away the best spell list. Animate objects is the only real standout on the Forge list, but what a standout. Light domain I think is less impressive, but at least it's supporting the domain 100%. You want to light stuff up? Take the light domain. The worst domain lists are the ones where they fill the list with a bunch of Cleric spells. Yuck. Life comes to mind.
@@TreantmonksTemple Part of my thinking on the Light Domain is that a fair number of the spells it gives you are non-concentration and don't use your bonus action. So if you still want to make use of spiritual weapon and spirit guardians those spells don't compete with them. Warding flare also gives you an option to make use of your reaction. Suppose it's hardest hit by opponents with resistances/immunity as a downside.
Its pretty funny to use the illusionary duplicate to walk into an enemy's range, and then walk out of their range. That way, the enemies all waste their oppurtunity attacks trying to hit a perfect illusionary copy of my character, as to enable other people to walk out of range of the enemy.
I'm starting a campaign with a level 1 halfling trickster cleric in a monotheistic military police state and I love him. I'm planning some weird stuff and really looking forward to it. For starters I have pretty level stats. I used standard array and after racial and class bonuses I have. 14 STR. 14 dex 15 wisdom 14 cha, 10 con and 8 int. I have halfling luck(free reroll on crit fails) and plan on taking lucky feat instead of first ability bonus. Anyway if anyone is interested in more about it I'll go on lol.
I absolutely loved this, thank you! It feels difficult to drive home the simple fact that Clerics are primary casters. The best caster is the one with the best spells. Would love to hear your in-depth thoughts on other subclasses.
Alright, you've COMPLETELY changed my opinion on this subclass. (I admit, citing one of my favorite versions of Robin in media helped a bit. ;) "Now, get traught!"
Polymorph at 15th level... it's still a 156 temporary HP bonus, sure the barbarian or fighter receiving it will do less damage, but they'l still do more damage then if they were uncounscious. I agree transforming the fighter into a T-Rex at level 7 is powerfull and cool, and I Agree that this same T-Rex get a lot weaker at level 15, I'm not dening that. But Polymorph is a lot more then juste transforming a party member into a T-Rex for more damage. As a spell caster, if you run out of spell (or need to conserve your spell slot for a harder fight) casting polymorph T-Re on yourself (even at level 15) will allow you to save on healing since the ennemy will need to go trought your T-Rex HP before touching your own, and you'll deal more damage then if you spammed your cantrip. So for those long adventuring day, it's a decent spell even at level 15 for lesser encounter. then even at 15th level, transforming into a giant eagle (or any large flying beast) will allow that player, plus a rider, plus probably one of the small party member to fly, Sure I might use it for in combat flight, since the eagle is pretty weak (specially at level 15) and while you allow the melee fighter to reach the flying dragon, you will do nothing during the fight, but if you need to fly over an obstacle then it might be fine, maybe ask the wizard for a fog cloud or a darkness spell so the ennemies bellow don't see you? Even at level 15th+ if you polymoprh into a rat to infiltrate Xanathar hideout in the sewer or into a cat to walk in the ennemy town or into an owl to spy on those witches in the forest... it's a pretty good stealth strategy even if your stealth check sucks, or that clanky paladin can be transformed into a small spider and climb inside the halfling rogue backpack and be carried stealthely (and if the rogue need backup during the stealth mission, he could "free interaction with the environement" squish the spider and voila, a paladin ready to fight So even at 15th level polymorph offer: Melee option when out of spell or conserving spell Emergency healing "out of combat" flight "out of combat" Stealth and it remain just as effective as it was at level 7 to transform the big bad evil guy into a whale on land (so he's out of combat, but a fireball do not risk breaking the polymorph) or transforming the prisoner into a snail and caging it in a glass jar to bring him back to justice. Or just for some cheese where you transform into a mice and drown it in a glass of water (the drowning/suffocating condition is not removed from reverting back to his normal self, neither are some of the nastiest spell like contagions, so maybe choose an beast with particularly low charisma, and inflict it with the charisma disease for 3 turns then break the concentration and voila, a diseases enemy (would a creature immune to diseae lost his immunity when transformed this way? if yes, once he transformed, does the immunity cure the disease he's received while polymorphed?
Listening to this one thing I'd really like to see is a build that used cleric and warlock to really optimize a potent Eldricht Blast build and how it holds up versus other characters. You'd have to focus on both wisdom and Charisma but that really makes sense for a preacher devoted to the higher power of your choice rather than the classical crusader type. You'd have to take Magic Initiate to make Eldricht Blast a cleric spell, which frees up a different Warlock Cantrip right away using Variant human to get the feat right away . . . then at level 2 & 3 you take Warlock so you can add your Charisma and Wisdom bonus' to each beam. But obviously we aren't taking this just for damage we investing a couple of levels so we can push and pull critters around . . . we've got other sources of damage, this is a cantrip and a spell a turn and we want the best cantrip we can use even if it cost us 2 levels and a feat. Which is a big cost but we are using this a LOT; plus clerics do benefit from a higher charisma and we've chosen our domain to maximize that.
I LOVE this idea for a cleric. Wow, can't wait to use it! One thing I will disagree with you on is Charm Person. Like you, I generally play 'Good' aligned characters. So how is Charm Person useful? As an interrogation technique. Capture an enemy and instead of torturing him, you Charm him. Let's say the fighter knocks a goblin unconscious and ties him up. I come in and cast Charm Person. I know I get disadvantage, but I can cast it more than once. And since interrogation only comes after a battle is won, we may be looking at a long rest before the next encounter. Why not gamble on Charm Person with unused spell slots at that point? So let's say I successfully Charm the goblin after 3 tries. As a trickery cleric, I would want to speak to the goblin alone. I would try to convince him that I'm his friend, possibly pretending to be secretly working for his chieftain. Then start asking questions. If I ask something he thinks I should know, like the way to the goblin den, I tell him my memory is bad and I forgot. I would even heal the goblin to get him to trust me. Anyway, no torture, which is an 'evil' act. This is my favorite use of Charm Person and I think worthwhile, though circumstantial.
Queso. I'm a PF player, I went into 5e and looked through the Cleric options and saw trickery.. It was an obvious choice, w/some feats. idk how anyone says it's bad. It's very, very good.
Like 30 minutes in I was convinced I didn't want to try trickery, 45 minutes in you pulled me back in. Love your analysis ability and I'm thankful you give a view of all sides.
I really do like your review of this archetype. I think you looked at it is a more balanced form than most others have. I honestly think they have seen "certain" shows and seen her doing more than what their DMs have allowed. Trickery Is personally my favorite RP based cleric. I made a cleric of Waukeen, who is trickery and she uses bureaucracy, forgery and such to get info and into secret areas normally others can't, without Stealth. I see Trickery as a compliment to go along with the likes of Rogues, Whisper Bards. Trickery a domain for a playful character, someone who isn't meaning too much physical harm, they could also be a morally grey cleric. Or at least in my opinion. Keep up the great content. Love and peace.
Thanks my friend. Your Cleric of Waukeen sounds like lots of fun. Waukeen (and Grazzt) are the subjects of one of my favorite pieces of D&D art. www.toddlockwood.com/dinner/
16:43 Talking about arcane domain clerics, what if you have magic initiate (druid) shillelagh as bonus action, then booming blade? at levels 5+ it can be good with half plate and shield using a club ;) Oh and would you take green flame lade as well or go for ray of frost/prestidigitation/ or another wizard cantrip?
If I were to redo the trickery cleric I would keep everything the same but change the invisibility channel divinity either so it’s cast on reaction, or keep it as an action and allow the cleric to cast spells during that round then it stays useful in a variety of creative ways, that’s what the trickster cleric is all about creative uses not so much combat, the only other change I would make is the divine strike instead giving the trickster cleric a glyph of warding so they can lay traps and feel more as though they can trick others and the contingency spell for those anime style “ahah I knew you’d do that moments” because this class is as powerful as you are creative and both these spells allow you to be really creative in how you approach combat (Edit I accidentally wrote illusion when I meant invisibility)
And as a dm I’d rule that invoke duplicity is a perfect replication of you, that means it creates shadows it can create the same sounds you can it can give off smell it’s you in every conceivable way but, it has no mass and it passes through stuff, it can’t touch like most illusions, this isn’t extreme either a third level illusion can do all this but this is a gods given PERFECT illusion, one should imagine what sorts of things that entails by comparing it to other illusions, just remember if you want it to talk you’ve got to be close enough to use your own senses so you can hear and will it to respond
I'm doing a trickery/rogue (i'm aiming at +5 dex and +4 wis, i know... i should have done the opposite) because i didn't want to be' a full caster, i get lot of skills and by taking only 3 rogue levels i can decide to get the trickster or assassin subclass... the first grants a decent amount of wizard spells like magic hand, but i think that getting the assassin one will give a great improvement on the melee side of the character making him crit most of the times, doubling the weapon damage... the sneak attack, and even the divine strike! Plus the profiency on making poisons will make me add other variants of them on the blade improving the damage even more (i know about the poison resistance but i will talk to my dm about it) then i think i'll just get some feats to increase my wisdom (I started with 15)... invisibility, magic hand and maybe agathys armor... not the best and efficient cleric but very funny to play imo..
As a DM with the duplicity thing I would at least make the first attack or round of attacks be a coin flip which one gets attacked. After that might start giving the enemies a chance to disbelieve the illusion. Now you do some clever shell game business with your movement and make a skill roll, we might go back to the 50/50
Take the charm person spell seriously, I am currently playing a tasha feywild ranger at level 5. we needed to interrogate someone who was likely to lash out and breath fire on us the second we opened the door. I casted charm person on them, I wasn't expecting it to work my DC at level 4 was a 12. they had advantage, because they were already hostile..... they rolled a 6 and an 8. we saved ourselves so much trouble by being able to ask him anything for a clear hour. So consider that I, a HALF CASTER was able to make good use of my limited spell slots, compared to a full caster who will always have it prepared as well, while focusing more on their Wisdom to make the DC higher.
Contagion doesn't have any effect until after the 3rd failed save. It is already listed in sage advice, and I heard they intend to clarify it with errata. Contagion is IMO a spell great for NPCs but almost useless for PCs.
Here's what Contagion does with the November errata: Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned. At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration. Since this spell induces a natural disease in its target, any effect that removes a disease or otherwise ameliorates a disease's effects apply to it. Blinding Sickness. Pain grips the creature's mind, and its eyes turn milky white. The creature has disadvantage on Wisdom checks and Wisdom saving throws and is blinded. Filth Fever. A raging fever sweeps through the creature's body. The creature has disadvantage on Strength checks, Strength saving throws, and attack rolls that use Strength. Flesh Rot. The creature's flesh decays. The creature has disadvantage on Charisma checks and vulnerability to all damage. Mindfire. The creature's mind becomes feverish. The creature has disadvantage on Intelligence checks and Intelligence saving throws, and the creature behaves as if under the effects of the confusion spell during combat. Seizure. The creature is overcome with shaking. The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity checks, Dexterity saving throws, and attack rolls that use Dexterity. Slimy Doom. The creature begins to bleed uncontrollably. The creature has disadvantage on Constitution checks and Constitution saving throws. In addition, whenever the creature takes damage, it is stunned until the end of its next turn. Spell Tags:
IMO anything that will survive long enough for Contagion to take effect probably has a great con save and probably legendary resistance. I'm not sure if just the poisoned condition is worth a 5th level slot.
Christopher McKee It definitely is not worth it for a 5th level slots. Not to mention most things at higher levels are immune to poison, meaning for those creatures this spell is now utterly useless instead of mostly useless. Sometimes I don’t understand what the dev team is thinking. If they were going to errata it anyway, just fix Slimey Doom and rule the spell by RAW.
So I'm going to try a new character and he's one rogue and trick Cleric 3 for now, the party had absolutely no stealth or heels at all And he's an elf so he's using a longbow and getting sneak attack every time he uses it. That's okay damage when I'm not casting spell
My current character is a Trickster rogue 4/ trickery cleric 5. It’s a blast. Lower levels sneak attack is great. Higher spell casting later. All the skills. Better mage hand. Invoke duplicity. Fun.
That Divine Strike ability should've a confusion-thingy attached to it, it would make much more sense! I know confusion is not an energy type, but well i never said I had all figured out! xP
Oh yes, it's the weakest domain. *Looks at Jester Lavorre and how she tricked a hag into eating a laced baked good so she could cast Modify Memory to break a friend's curse*
I agree with almost everything you're saying here but I do disagree with how little value you put on the other Domain Features outside of the Domain Spell Lists. I don't think Arcana OR Trickery Clerics get very good features from their Domains. But other Domains like Knowledge, Life, and Grave, DO actually get good features! That being said, Trickery Clerics almost definitely get the best Domain Spells, and being a spellcaster is one of the main draws for Clerics, for sure.
I hope that you noticed that Cloak of Shadows isn't for just a round. "As an action, you become invisible until the end of your next turn. You become invisible if you attack or cast a spell." A turn is a lot longer than a round, right?
Until the end of your next turn is approximately a round. A round is the turns of all creatures in initiative. So this lasts through the turn you used it, through all the creatures that until your turn, and then until the end of your turn if you don't attack or cast a spell. Unless I'm missing something.
I suspect that "perfect replica" is about how the rules don't say you can see through invoke duplicity with inspect checks like most illusions. I also suspect that if the trickery domain was called arcana domain (arcana was called something else) then a lot of the complaints would vanish.
@@M0ebius Because invisibility and illusionary duplicates are illusion type magic, almost all of which is arcane. Calling the domain trickery sets an expectation that it doesn't really seem to meet very well.
timeforsuchaword Illusion is just one of a dozen schools. It makes no sense thematically that a cleric who worships the god of magic itself gets invisibility and duplicate instead of straight up more and/or better spells.
For Invoke Duplicity: because of how the rules for movement and actions in 5e work, and because this is an illusion (and therefore has no physical mass), you can create the illusion, then move into the same space as it (so overlap is a thing). Then, while in that square, use your bonus action to move the illusion, and continue your movement. There is now no way for any reasonable GM to say anyone could possibly tell which is which.
You can also do this in melee. You don't provoke opportunity attacks for moving *around* an enemy, so you can do the same thing in melee. Move in with part of your movement, attack, use your bonus action to move the illusion to your space (note: you can move it to any space you can see, not any unoccupied space), then use the rest of your movement to move to the side. There is, again, no way for the enemy to be sure of which one of you hit them.
Basically, even with an asshole GM, you have the flexibility to overrule any reasonable argument against it. And if they make unreasonable arguments, honestly, find a new GM.
"For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space..." To me, that is the main selling point of the Trickery Domain. All of your touch spells are now essentially ranged spells. That and the ability to turn your clanky fighter into a stealth machine are the reasons to pick this domain if you are so inclined.
A thing to note about the domain spells: only one of the Trickery cleric's domain spells is on the Cleric spell list. One. Out of 10. That means 9 new options other clerics just plain don't have, good or bad.
Only the Nature and Forge Domains get that. Every other class has 4-5 cleric spells (so just about half) on their domain lists. And as you said, Trickery's list is easily the best domain spell list. Bar none. Forge is probably second (and of note, a lot of people think Forge is the best domain).
I'm playing DnD for the first time ever in..... 3 days.
I decided to go with a trickery dex-based Aarakocra cleric.
I have no clue what I'm doing, but I'm excited!!
How did it go?
That was my first character too! How’d it go?
How’d it go so far 😊
How'd it go?
We didn’t make it through our whole campaign unfortunately, people couldn’t really make it to sessions so it fizzled out ): I haven’t tried again, but I need to! The few sessions I did play, I had an absolute blast.
Yes, the trickster clerics appear deceptively weak, i think it's part of their strategy. Way to ruin their efforts Treantmonk!
When it comes to illusions I disagree with dungeon masters who have difficulty with illusions. They exist for a reason, to sway the stupid. Dm meta gaming through a mob is just as bad as players doing it. Yep you created a perfect version of yourself. Many creatures are not going to understand what it is and take rounds of combat to figure it out. Play the creature not yourself in game. My wizard rolled poorly on a check once and didn't know much about Aboleths. Your creatures can be morons too at times.
Excuse me, everyone knows that the Monk is the best 5e class, because you start out punching pretty good, and by the end you punch real good.
Best tavern brawler. That's not nothing ^^
Excuse me, everyone from 2 years in the future knows that a Lizardfolk Paladin is the best monk in 5e, since you can smite on your bites. Even better if you're a Lizardfolk-turned-Dhampir, since then you're standing on a wall or grappling the opponent while dragging them underwater, regenerating while you bite.
The way of the bite fist Monk, as it has been called, is a flat upgrade over most monks.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 It's so wild to see how time improves game knowledge lol
Well presented, as usual. I'm so glad you're hammering on the "you're a spell caster, it's what you do" part. I try to talk about this with several different classes, and everyone wants to swing a weapon and compare dice. I'm like, 'GUYS! You played a caster class. Cast a spell, and quit comparing hammer sizes!"
Sort of off topic, but I find it hard to conjure up a scenario where any of the primary casters is actually better off using a weapon than casting a spell, past character level 3. As soon as you get those second level slots, casting gets good and you finally have enough slots to not be miserly. By character level 5, only marathon paces will find you without a useful slot. By character level 7, you should have something useful to cast every single time there is an obstacle to the party.
A few things that confuse me about the Trickery cleric: I feel like they needed at least one more skill proficiency, probably chosen (or chosen for you) from the DEX or CHA skill list. I'm also surprised that they don't get access to Minor Illusion, Silent Image, etc. Prestidigitation would also be a great spell for a Trickery themed character. Heck, just let them grab a free bard cantrip or two, and they can pick up Vicious Mockery or Mage Hand or Friends instead. Or, alternatively, append the bard cantrips to the cleric list, so you still get the regular number of cantrips but can now choose either bard or cleric cantrips.
I guess it just feels like it's hard to complete the Trickery theme when you're locked out of so many things that would be perfect for a trickster type of character.
Greywander Exactly.
this is why you go for a level 3 dip for arcane trickster
Agreed this is why the rogue multi-class is worth it. I'd say scout over Arcane trickster though but depends what you're going for
I'm playing a gnome tryckery-thief multiclass. With the variant gnome, I have minor illusion.
Pretty fun character, can't wait for lvl 6 of Cleric and 3 in thief, to go invisible and run away with a bonus action.
Also, since I'm small, I can directly Walk behind creatures as bonus action (with disingage) and get free advantage from flanking.
Also, at lvl 10 (7 CLR and 3 thief), I can have Xanathar gnome feat to turn invisible in response to damage, with the normal extra invisibility from Cleric lvl 6, Ward against death and dimension door I Will be absolutely unkillable. Also, during fights I can have the lvl 2 Naruto's Copy jutsu and Blink.
I wanted to do this build, and planned It for a week. Then I realized, a wizard can do most of that. And can also change spells for other builds.
And also has fireball, and can be tanky with the right subclass.
Also, I have 7 con, 7 str, 9 char, 18 int, 13 wisd and dexterity. 12 hp at lvl 3, hard mode Is on, almost all enemies at all lvls can down me First round. The dark souls experience of D&D
I play a trickery cleric with a multiclass to bard, being a face for rp, damage and buffs plus heals is really fun to play around with
I was skeptical of the video's premise, but it's compelling to give more clout to an archetype's spell list rather than abilities. Thanks for the video.
Thank you for watching!
I think it may even be better than how you are rating it, because the level 1 combination of Charm Person while disguised self'ed is nuts, and you are getting the exact two spells you need for that combination.
Agreed. As it explicitly says in the PHB description, "They prefer subterfuge, pranks, deception, and theft rather than direct confrontation." It's not a lesser war domain cleric, it's a trickster. Personally, I think it leans too far toward a Rogue and would be more flavorful and effective in embracing the illusionist archetype, but it's fun and useful in both directions.
I love your guides, always interesting. Could you, where appropriate, use the same colour system (Blue, Green, Purple, Red etc) as per your guides to indicate your view on the Potency of a spell or ability when the text flashes on screen. It would be a cool thematic choice and a useful call back to the style that you used so well :) Keep it up!
This is solid, applicable advice. I second it.
I have to give you big thank you, I've been reading your guides for years. After I read your wizard guide I realized how powerful they were even at level 1.
Thank you! My favorite domain gets no love, bless you for this video and your insight
Forge domain is still overall my favorite :p having early access to magic weapons, heat metal and the ability to duplicate items through rituals is awesome.
and Animate Objects!
Polymorph isn't thematic with trickery?
Loky: hold my beer
Excellent work. I will note that I main Cleric, so I want to point out a couple things:
1. On the Ranged Spell vs Melee issue, most domains I'll agree that the ranged spell is vastly superior in most cases. However, on Tempest and War, Melee is a stronger option. With War, you get up to 5 bonus melee attacks per day, essentially improving the viability of melee along with being able to almost guarantee a hit (Channel Divinity for +10 to hit), and Tempest not only gives Thunder Damage (rarely resisted) and a Wis/day retaliate as a reaction, but also can maximize both effects' damage with Channel. I feel that melee cleric is always underrated, and on my Goliath Cleric, it was huge purely because I chose to use a hard hitting melee weapon.
2. On the Dispel effect of Arcane, if you buff an ally (something quite useful) and they get hit with a strong debuff, the ability has the added bonus of not undoing your buffs, where Dispel would shut down all spells, beneficial or no. This does make this ability stronger overall.
3. Trickery isn't the worst by far IMO, because good domain spells plus a couple useful tricks is always better than Nature or Healing.
Overall, excellent work, and keep it up
1: Yes, I agree. Not saying melee Clerics are terrible, I recently made a build guide for a melee Nature Cleric. I just tend to favor cantrips for the reasons I mention in the video, but it's not black and white for sure.
2: I didn't think of that. Good point.
3: I actually like the Nature domain. docs.google.com/document/d/1K2kKOFIFin_zSzgXDCx0_UGcGqtJRSsCWVW5mOc3Mxk/edit#
@@TreantmonksTemple
1. True. May just be my preference, but I like to have a heavy instrument to retaliate against anyone who does want to snuggle me harshly.
2. Does it make the ability better? No. But it makes it an efficiency option in certain cases.
3. My bad. Never been huge on them. Former 3.5 Druid main (that's our territory, son!), and while no single domain is truly horrid, Nature really is trying to be pretend druid when they could have gone in a slightly different direction.
And fun side note on the Cloak of Shadow: people praise Firbolg's racial invisibility, yet dislike CoS. It's kinda cute to be honest
Dispel doesn't shut down buffs. It just ends ONLY ONE effect on ONLY ONE creature, so if creature has bless, slow and it is poisoned - it only can remove Bless OR Slow.
I am my party's hardiest PC(AC/HP) and the only Cleric, so I often cast my Bless/Spirit Guardians and just run up-front and take the Dodge Action instead of attacking. I figure this makes me better at tanking and more likely to keep my Concentration. If the fight seems tough, I can still use Spiritual Weapon as a Bonus Action. I don't know if this Dodging of mine is great strategically, but I have been much better at keeping Concentration than when I used to just Attack. I should mention that most of my party are somewhat of "glass cannons".
The Dodge action, very smart. The best way to keep concentration is to not make saving throws. A Trickery Cleric can also throw on a mirror image for a similar tactic. I will be covering this in part 2.
I really enjoyed you talking through the features and comparing it to the other subclasses. I've enjoyed Cleric before but you really made me understand it better on what to really look for instead of the shiny subclass features that the Domain gives. The spell list despite being central of the gameplay of a full caster was for some reason a thing I only glanced at.
Hoo boy, 54 mins? That's amazing TM! One of the best new channels around!
That's why 2 parts. Next part will be out likely on Sat.
llllllong
I strongly agree with this video, and I realise I've been ruling wrong on invoke duplicity, allowing the cleric in one of my groups to concentrate on a spell and have the duplicate active at the same time. It's been really useful a couple of times, but definitely not broken, and it means the ability sees a lot more play, which I think is fun. (I don't see it ever being used in combat beyond 4th level, except in really niche circumstances). I agree that the intention is probably that it uses concentration, but I think the wording is really poor, as it only states that it "ends if you loose concentration(as if concentrating on a spell)", but doesn't directly state that it requires concentration, so I missed it anyway xD
This is a really old comment, but just for posteriority to those who read similar wordings: this wording is actually the very clear and non-ambiguous, because when you cast a spell that requires concentration you automatically lose concentration on whatever you were already doing. So when a feature states that you lose the benefit when you lose concentration, that directly implies you cannot cast a concentration spell whilst it is online.
@@theWebWizrd I respect the hustle Wizard of the Web.
a lot of people (DMs and players alike) forget that it says 'perfect illusion'... 'PERFECT'
that leaves no room for misinterpreting how this illusion is perceived and how it works
and unlike many other illusions that allow for the use of an 'ACTION' to make an INT check to determine if you believe the illusion or not... this 'perfect' illusion just works
For me it is similar to what you said in that it depends on the players and the DM. Wargamer style DMs usually focus on the numbers and seem to lack imagination. Some how making monsters target the real despite another, the duplicate, perceivably behaving like an actual combatant and the source from where spells are coming from. Minor illusion is in the same boat in that an enemy, although having no reason to believe the illusion to be anything other than the real thing, will some how run right through it.
chainer8686 I think it’s fair to say that the enemies will get confused once, IF they did not physically see the duplicate being cast. And even then I would say it’s fair that they’ll swing once and realize it’s an illusion. This is all assuming they know nothing about the Cleric.
So basically in terms of combat it’s an ability that, if you preemptively cast it, will absorb 1 hit from 1 guy. Seems like the Cleric is better off just casting Bless if you get the chance to pre-buff at all.
I mean all you have to do for invoke duplicity is run to the same spot as your duplicate then use your bonus action to continue running as you and the attackers no longer know which one is real again 🤷♂️ you can just keep doing that and mixing it up as needed
Don’t forget the scouting value of polymorph. You can change into a common creature for the area and just wander around and listen. Also, the spell has no requirement for the polymorph creature to stay in range of the caster, the caster just needs to concentrate. A trickery cleric can just change his Wanted Poster friend into a horse and just ride out of town, or ride into town on his rogue friend/horse so there is no record of his being there. Going to the ball with your rogue friend polymorphed into an exotic parrot who gets sent “home” later is a great way to get past all the guards.
Quite literally the only thing I would do to "fix" trickery cleric is change Divine Strike to psychic damage or allow the player to choose Potent Cantrips.
What about Minor Illusion cantrip?
@@SuperYoshikong that would certainly be a fun thing, and I wouldn't be oppressed to a trickery cleric getting access to it, but I don't think it's necessary for making them feel up to par. I personally have allowed one of my players to have the cloak of shadows last a minute so it feels less pointless. I'm really open to any discussions of tweaking that a player would like.
I am currently playing a Trickery Cleric in a campaign. Next to me there is only one other player who is playing a rogue. We make a really great team. The rogue does the majority of the stealth work, and nails it because of my clerics abilities. We are a thieving powerduo.
Yes, having a cleric with Pass without a Trace, in a campaign within a city, is brilliant.
Regarding illusion abilities and whether enemies are fooled: if I don't think the circumstances would have the NPC either automatically believe or disbelieve that the illusion is real, I have them make a skill check (Perception, Insight, or Investigation, depending on circumstances) against the player character's spell save DC, or make the player do a Deception check. It depends.
That sounds reasonable to me.
Well, from another tactical standpoint, you can still use the duplicate to deliver beneficial touch attacks to those in melee, without entering melee yourself. I know it's not the biggest OMG thing in the universe, but it's not nothing.
The illusion spell/DM discretion thing is true. I had an idea to use minor illusion in conjunction with find familiar to let it flank with the benefits of a cloak of displacement. It works.
You forgot to mention that the cleric essentially gets a once a week wish at level 20 anyway.
Trickery Cleric ± Arcane Trickstee Rogue + Gnome (and their religious beliefs) = So much fun.
Spirit Guardians, Mirror Image, and Spiritual Weapon seems awesome.
idear: (would this work???)
1. Disgues as another caster teammate all the time. And walk besides him.
2. Fight begins, cast invoke duplicity.
3. Cast mirror image.
Let you caster dd melt everthing.
GG
I only disagree with the argument that since the Arcana Domain's Channel Divinity is not that much better than Dispel Magic, the Trickery Domain's invisibility, which is slightly better than a Disengage action, is almost its match. Dispel Magic is a limited class resource that can solve massive problems, while every character can disengage as an action.
Still, this being the only point I disagree with means that you did an amazing job opening my eyes to the ways in which certain cleric features are underpowered (all 8th-level features, for instance). Martial Arts proficiency is somewhat useful at lower levels, but, like you, I also preferred to play my Trickery Cleric wielding only a shield, and I love him to bits.
Jester from Critical Role needs to know how powerful she is!!
Let's ask him how he thinks she is playing the class. So far it seems like she gets class, I think.
Jester is by far the most powerful character in that party. Laura has really come into her own, maybe by accident, with her creation. :)
I agree that the trickery cleric has great potential, but you need the capacity as a player to realize it fully.
There are a few videos I'd love to see from you.
One is about the more advanced possibilities of magic. Things you can do with simulacra, summonings and bindings, or any combinations of spells that allow you to do really fantastic stuff at higher levels. This could include interplay between high level casters, like divination and protections against it.
Another is a summary of what all the classes do and how to get value out of them, describing each class's strengths and roles, maybe with any interesting notes about subclasses. Basically a video with very, very condensed versions of your Wizard guide for each class.
Love your content!
My intent is to focus on subclasses for awhile, however, the future is a blank slate right now. I'm getting lots of ideas from people, which should keep me busy for a long time. I'm having a ton of fun with this!
It appears some people are hung up on the title of “Trickery” for this domain. This is not a domain for thieves and backstabbers, it’s a domain for tricksters and deceivers. Loki is the classic archetype, but every culture has them. The class abilities and spell list fit that type, charming people, illusions, disappearing instantly, changing shape, using deceit as a defense.
The flavor text pushes you in the direction of gods of rogues and thieves, but that’s not really right. A trickster doesn’t steal for profit, they steal for disruption, for mischief. Think Robin Hood, Puck, Bugs Bunny moreso then dedicated thieves
My example build in part 2 will be a Cleric of Tymora, the goddess of luck. Completely unrelated to thievery and thieves.
One of the things I tend to do on a *lot* of my Non-Arcana Clerics is getting Magic Initiate: Druid for Thorn Whip, Druidcraft, and a 1st level spell (Usually Faerie Fire due to it's overall usefulness) due to the Cleric's lack of an Attack Roll based Damage Cantrip, in addition Thorn Whip allows you to pull enemies into your Spirit Guardians for Super-Happy-Fun-Time~!
I actually love trickery cleric and horizon walker split. So 5/5 split at level 10 and 9 cleric/11 ranger at 20.
Mainly because the trickery spells are freaking awesome, the teleporting of ranger is sweet and i do not use spiritual weapon (i know its a geeat spell but rangers have a huge BA demand).
For a melee build it is really fun and quite effective (especially because planar warrior actually gets some use out of divine strike).
For exploration the stealth boost is very good and because many of the spells dont require concentration you have great combat options to boost survivability.
Duplicity is really nice to lure ppl and you can actually lay down ambushes with stuff like invoke duplicity and thaumaturgy.
It is a great balancrd build and ffun in and out of combat. And because rangers often dump Cha you can also benefit from charm person to get some RP moments rolling more easily.
Only gripe i have with trickery is that invoke duplicity eats your concentration. It would a very nice combo to have invoke duplicity active while using spirit guardians at its position, to lure enemies towards it and then deal damage without being in the line of fire.
One of the real-life things that were common amongst warriors was the sword knot, which was used to keep a warrior from losing their weapon if it was knocked out of their hand. Something like that might also work so that you could cast a spell by dropping your weapon, casting the spell, then grab it again. Thoughts?
Thank God for Blessed Strike.
Divine Strike is good when the enemy has high wisdom. Toll the dead is good when the enemy has poison resistance/immunity and/or high AC
Before this video I never really payed attention to the domain cleric spells, I’m personally a fan of tempest before this video never saw Polymorph of all spells on the trickery this video really swayed my opinion. Good job as always Treantmonk, keep up the good work!
The domain spell are what make Tempest so good. Destructive Wave is normally only accessible to high level paladins. Despite being the same level as Flame strike, it does more damage with a better damage type over a much larger area and is party friendly to boot.
Christopher McKee But the fact that Tempest doesn’t get Lightning Bolt boggles my mind. Better to just go Storm Sorcerer with 2 levels of Tempest, since then you’d even get Chain Lightning.
@@M0ebius destructive wave eclipses them all, so once you hit level 9, you don't care about lightning bolt.
Christopher McKee The point is you can’t use Destructive Wrath on Destructive Wave. Destructive Wave is definitely the stronger spell overall, but it does 35 dmg on average, whereas a level 5 Lightning Bolt with Destructive Wrath does a flat 60 dmg. Not to mention it being the most on-theme spell for a Tempest Cleric.
@@M0ebius what are you talking about, you can definitely use destructive wrath with destructive wave. It only affects half the damage, but it is still worth it. Also, IMO a spell that combines thunder and radiant damage is about as iconic as it gets for a tempest CLERIC. Sure, you can squeeze 12.5 more damage on average out of a maxed out lightning bolt, but destructive wave deals 2 better damage types over a bigger area and is party friendly.
People don't like this sub-class because they've been tricked.
I rolled a rogue (mastermind) & T-Cleric build to get dual ranged help actions & bless. I've been making him the amplifier for increasing the odds to hit for all my teammates. At 4th level rogue I'm going to take the feat ritualist, and find familiar for a third help action per round.
The ability to cast disguise self, then use the negative side of charm person at level 2 (1lvl rogue + 1lvl cleric) is a real hoot. I would love any pointers anyone else could throw at me, as I'm not that clever with the mechanics.
Great video, +1
Thank you my friend! I agree that T-Cleric + Rogue works pretty well as a multiclass. I'm a spell-hog though, don't like to multiclass my spellcasting away...
I love trick clerics. This is my main character. While not a tank, they are fantastic at coming up with alternate solutions to being a murder hobo.
I gotta say, I prefer this style to the one you switched to for later guides. Having the first portion where you talk in general about the build really helps me understand where the build is going and why
There was a lot more to talk about here. Nobody thinks the Sorlock or the Soradin is underrated. This one I was pretty much against the general consensus, so I felt that was a good place to start. There aren't any more subclasses I think are so underrated, there are other things though. Next one I will tackle is with a spell I find underrated, hope you'll check it out...
Thanks a lot for the reply! You always have some unique insight on your video topic, I'm definitely going to watch all of your videos.
Using the Soradin video for example, had it been more clear in the first 15 min or so that the build peaks at 12th level, or that there was that neat fear synergy, I would have made a point to watch it in full before the level 12 oneshot I played in last week. Having that sort of high-level information (the "unique insight" I watch for) interspersed with the low-level information of which spells to take at which level (which I follow much more loosely) was a less engaging format, at least for me personally.
This is just a small nitpick to otherwise great content so I don't mean to come off too critical.
it really is super underrated, my favorite character is a trickster cleric kenku.
edit: just got to the part where he mentions kenkus. hell yea.
A bit late on this, but I'm currently playing a Loxodon Trickery Cleric and took the Poisoner feat so my Divine Strike is actually useful because I ignore resistances to the damage. Obviously this feat came way after this video, just popping in 😂
The illusion duplicate of yourself is great, put him on the other side of the battlefield and deliver heal spells to whoever needs them. If your clone draws 1 or 2 attacks too that’s just the icing on the cake.
Jinx Jade That’s what Healing Word is for.
@@M0ebius Let me give you a hypothetical scenario: You are a 3rd level Trickery Cleric with both Healing word and Cure Wounds prepared. You Invoke Duplicity in melee with the BBG hoping to pull some attacks away from the fighter, but unfortunately, the fighter goes down. You have a Spiritual Weapon up. It's your turn, do you cast Healing Word or Cure Wounds?
Treantmonk's Temple Yes I agree Invoke Duplicity is not completely useless. For everyone else it’s cantrip/attack into Healing Word for 2 less HP and roughly the same damage. It’s virtually the same outcome.
The difference is whether or not your Invoke Duplicity actually tanked any hits. There’s nothing mechanically that said you would and the BBG just saw you summon this thing. If we’re generous the BBG takes 1 shot, realizes it’s fake, and proceed to wail on the fighter. End result is you premptively spent an Action to potentially prevent a single shot, which might or might not have landed in the first place. Everyone else would’ve just used their Action to attack/cantrip or cast a spell.
Best case scenario is you roughly break even with any other Cleric. Worst case scenario you are behind 1 Action.
I think Trickery Domain is most useful multiclassing into Arcane Trickster Rogue. Invoked Duplicity being able to cast Booming Blade is a great battlefield control and distraction because if your DM isn't metagaming and going after your illusion that is hampering mobs, then you are doing your job as an ultimate trickster.
Yay guides are here finally. Watching it shortly, I am currently busy with studies :( Anyways gj Chris!
And now after Tasha's, a lot of the Trickery domain features that were criticized can be swapped out anyway; Harness Divine Power can be used if there's no opportunity for Invoke Duplicity and the terrible poison based Divine Strike can be swapped for Blessed Strike.
I completely agree.
Tasha's is a complete game changer
Dropping weapon on the ground and then picking it up from the ground could easily be reasoned to be faster than sheathing and drawing a weapon. A few years ago I bought a relatively cheap sword and sheath, and found it much easier to 'let go' of the sword and then 'pick it up' than to 'sheath it'. It is much faster to drop and pick up a sword than to put it away properly. I imagine that a skilled warrior character could easily decide that it was in their best interests to drop the sword (and risk the enemy picking it up) and try to recover it later so that they could perform an epic battle winning feat.
Blessing of the trickster is an amazing ability standalone that doesn't wear with age. Every stealth mission the rogue / monk takes in the game is SIGNIFICANTLY easier with one spammable ability.
Also, a rogue who uses the cunning action stealth/attack with advantage cycle in melee will do significantly more damage if boosted with this ability. It's a signficant buff.
@@TreantmonksTemple Yessir, amazing buff. Amazing content btw - thank you for putting out these guides!
Nice video. I hope the next guide will deal with the Druid. Or, better yet, THE WIZARD!
This is Treantmonk, after all. We all know what class guide everybody waits for.
I think he said in previous video he would tackle the Trickester Cleric (video above) and the Valor Bard (problaby the next one?)
Peter White yeah, he said something like that... well, let’s hope the wizard will come after that, then.
@@FelineElaj Valor bard is next. I'm going to be tackling subclasses. A Wizard video would be way too long, and lets face it, it's material that I have covered before. However, I will eventually get into some wizard subclasses.
Treantmonk's Temple oh, okay then.
What about the Druid?
As someone who main's a trickery domain cleric, the combination of inflict wounds and invoke duplicity is DEVASTATING at low levels. That advantage is incredible. Being able to set up the duplicity and then drop 3d10 damage on an enemy is awesome. One of the first boss fights I entered with him, I rolled high initiative and hit first. I critted and hit for 57 damage, killing the goblin leader. How can you say that inflict wounds isn't good?
I didn't say it wasn't good, I said I wasn't a big fan, just because single target blasts that use up spell slots don't fit my style of play so much.
@@TreantmonksTemple i think that is more class specific though. For example, druids have a lot of area of effect spells. Clerics more often are single target. Beyond that, I find that having the single target blast at first level is a help more often than not. A lot easier to not hit allies when you aren't using aoe spells.
Thanks for replying though! I enjoy seeing someone for one having good things to say about the trickery domain. I picked it for my first ever character, having no clue how clerics usually were played. It was a learning experience!
Subscribed since you did god's work on BG and minmax boards. Your 3.5 wizard guide is basically my bible.
Thanks my friend...that was a long time ago. Would I know your WOTC handle?
@@TreantmonksTemple probably not. I was a lot more of a lurker. Looking forward to seeing more of your guides tho.
Invoke duplicity is a minor ability? That's... the only reason I'd consider playing this domain. And maybe their spell list. But Invoke duplicity is minor? It's the entire cornerstone of the class concept. To defend this class as "good" and call it's major defining ability "minor" is just odd to me.
Cloak of shadows is under-rated because everyone reads just "one round" But you become visible at the end of the next round, if you need to make a hasty retreat, it gives you effectively 2 rounds to do it. cast cloak of shadows, move your max, next turn move your max, and dimension door.
But how does it work outside of combat? Only 6 second?
Just made a trickster vampire cleric, so far the role play is awesome with the abilities. Haven't gotten to combat yet
They always say 1 round of invisibility but it really is like a round and a half almost two rounds *end of next turn* you still have movement, free action and bonus action if you use it first. Then you get a whole round to set yourself up for when you pop back at the end of the round.
saying “don’t use it” is an awful defense for a entire feature of a subclass. there’s nothing wrong with admitting that the writers messed up on divine strike. the problem with divine strike isn’t just that it’s situational, it’s that in comparison with other cleric subclasses it’s horrendous.
Most of the complaints about this subclass have been mitigated post tashas with harness divine power, and blessed strikes giving improved options for channel divinity and divine strike. Which would make this easily the best subclass for Clerics but of course now we have the peace and twilight domain.... whelp.
Glad I found this video to affirm my choice.
My character is a con artist pretending to be a cleric, that was blessed by a trickery god and made into a real cleric :D
There are some really good spells to dispell using 1st or 2nd level spells like command(if you act before your allie) and hold person
trickery is my fav domain after order, that slow spell so good
My favorite too!
did yu know that approximately 100% of every single Trickery Cleric is equal to or in between levels 1 through 20
Honestly the whole "drop and pick up weapon" thing is done better by "drop weapon, draw another weapon." Same free/interactive economy but now it makes more sense. Plus with how much carrying capacity 5E has you can carry 5 maces or 5 shortswords on your person with ease.
Also is Spirit Guardians really a good spell to be throwing around? Because it's a concentration spell and when you cast one of those in combat *everyone* is gonna jump on you until you lose the spell and unless you've spent the two feats that boost concentration you will drop it after a turn or two unless you get lucky, at least from what I've seen.
Excellent job on the analysis, you changed my mind about the Trickery Cleric, although I still think Light is the best domain (Bc of the Channel Divinity)
Light is a really good domain, especially at lower levels.
I liked this point made about the value of the domain spell list for the cleric. Which other domains would you rate highly based just on the spells the domain list gives? Light? Forge?
The same logic applies to Paladin spell lists. Crown Paladins are hilarious when you get Spirit Guardians on a heavily armored/good constitution melee PC with Shield Master.
Well, I think the Trickery Cleric is far and away the best spell list. Animate objects is the only real standout on the Forge list, but what a standout. Light domain I think is less impressive, but at least it's supporting the domain 100%. You want to light stuff up? Take the light domain. The worst domain lists are the ones where they fill the list with a bunch of Cleric spells. Yuck. Life comes to mind.
@@TreantmonksTemple Part of my thinking on the Light Domain is that a fair number of the spells it gives you are non-concentration and don't use your bonus action. So if you still want to make use of spiritual weapon and spirit guardians those spells don't compete with them. Warding flare also gives you an option to make use of your reaction. Suppose it's hardest hit by opponents with resistances/immunity as a downside.
Its pretty funny to use the illusionary duplicate to walk into an enemy's range, and then walk out of their range.
That way, the enemies all waste their oppurtunity attacks trying to hit a perfect illusionary copy of my character, as to enable other people to walk out of range of the enemy.
I'm starting a campaign with a level 1 halfling trickster cleric in a monotheistic military police state and I love him. I'm planning some weird stuff and really looking forward to it. For starters I have pretty level stats. I used standard array and after racial and class bonuses I have. 14 STR. 14 dex 15 wisdom 14 cha, 10 con and 8 int. I have halfling luck(free reroll on crit fails) and plan on taking lucky feat instead of first ability bonus. Anyway if anyone is interested in more about it I'll go on lol.
I absolutely loved this, thank you! It feels difficult to drive home the simple fact that Clerics are primary casters. The best caster is the one with the best spells. Would love to hear your in-depth thoughts on other subclasses.
Human Arcana Cleric
Feat: Magic Initiate (Druid) - Shillelagh, Guidance, Goodberry
Weapon: Quarterstaff or Magic Staff
Lvl 1 - Green-Flame Blade, Booming Blade, Resistance, Light
Combat Turn 1 - Shillelagh + Green-Flame Blade
Damage = 1d6+3 primary and 3 secondary
Avg = 9.5
Lvl 3 - Spiritual Weapon
Combat Turn 2 - Spiritual Weapon + Green-Flame Blade
Damage = 1d6+3 primary and 3 secondary, then 1d8+3
Avg = 17
Lvl 4 - WIS 18
Damage = 1d6+4 primary and 4 secondary, then 1d8+4
Avg = 19
Lvl 5 - Cantrip boost
Damage = 1d6+1d8+4 primary and 1d8+4 secondary, then 1d8+4
Avg = 28
Lvl 8 - WIS 20, bonus damage to both primary and secondary GFB damage.
Damage = 1d6+1d8+5+5 primary and 1d8+5+5 secondary, then 2d8+5
Avg = 41
Lvl 11 - Cantrip Boost
Damage = 1d6+2d8+5+5 primary and 2d8+5+5 secondary, then 3d8+5
Avg = 60
Alright, you've COMPLETELY changed my opinion on this subclass. (I admit, citing one of my favorite versions of Robin in media helped a bit. ;) "Now, get traught!"
Polymorph at 15th level... it's still a 156 temporary HP bonus, sure the barbarian or fighter receiving it will do less damage, but they'l still do more damage then if they were uncounscious. I agree transforming the fighter into a T-Rex at level 7 is powerfull and cool, and I Agree that this same T-Rex get a lot weaker at level 15, I'm not dening that. But Polymorph is a lot more then juste transforming a party member into a T-Rex for more damage.
As a spell caster, if you run out of spell (or need to conserve your spell slot for a harder fight) casting polymorph T-Re on yourself (even at level 15) will allow you to save on healing since the ennemy will need to go trought your T-Rex HP before touching your own, and you'll deal more damage then if you spammed your cantrip. So for those long adventuring day, it's a decent spell even at level 15 for lesser encounter.
then even at 15th level, transforming into a giant eagle (or any large flying beast) will allow that player, plus a rider, plus probably one of the small party member to fly, Sure I might use it for in combat flight, since the eagle is pretty weak (specially at level 15) and while you allow the melee fighter to reach the flying dragon, you will do nothing during the fight, but if you need to fly over an obstacle then it might be fine, maybe ask the wizard for a fog cloud or a darkness spell so the ennemies bellow don't see you?
Even at level 15th+ if you polymoprh into a rat to infiltrate Xanathar hideout in the sewer or into a cat to walk in the ennemy town or into an owl to spy on those witches in the forest... it's a pretty good stealth strategy even if your stealth check sucks, or that clanky paladin can be transformed into a small spider and climb inside the halfling rogue backpack and be carried stealthely (and if the rogue need backup during the stealth mission, he could "free interaction with the environement" squish the spider and voila, a paladin ready to fight
So even at 15th level polymorph offer:
Melee option when out of spell or conserving spell
Emergency healing
"out of combat" flight
"out of combat" Stealth
and it remain just as effective as it was at level 7 to transform the big bad evil guy into a whale on land (so he's out of combat, but a fireball do not risk breaking the polymorph) or transforming the prisoner into a snail and caging it in a glass jar to bring him back to justice. Or just for some cheese where you transform into a mice and drown it in a glass of water (the drowning/suffocating condition is not removed from reverting back to his normal self, neither are some of the nastiest spell like contagions, so maybe choose an beast with particularly low charisma, and inflict it with the charisma disease for 3 turns then break the concentration and voila, a diseases enemy (would a creature immune to diseae lost his immunity when transformed this way? if yes, once he transformed, does the immunity cure the disease he's received while polymorphed?
Listening to this one thing I'd really like to see is a build that used cleric and warlock to really optimize a potent Eldricht Blast build and how it holds up versus other characters. You'd have to focus on both wisdom and Charisma but that really makes sense for a preacher devoted to the higher power of your choice rather than the classical crusader type.
You'd have to take Magic Initiate to make Eldricht Blast a cleric spell, which frees up a different Warlock Cantrip right away using Variant human to get the feat right away . . . then at level 2 & 3 you take Warlock so you can add your Charisma and Wisdom bonus' to each beam. But obviously we aren't taking this just for damage we investing a couple of levels so we can push and pull critters around . . . we've got other sources of damage, this is a cantrip and a spell a turn and we want the best cantrip we can use even if it cost us 2 levels and a feat. Which is a big cost but we are using this a LOT; plus clerics do benefit from a higher charisma and we've chosen our domain to maximize that.
I LOVE this idea for a cleric. Wow, can't wait to use it! One thing I will disagree with you on is Charm Person. Like you, I generally play 'Good' aligned characters. So how is Charm Person useful? As an interrogation technique. Capture an enemy and instead of torturing him, you Charm him. Let's say the fighter knocks a goblin unconscious and ties him up. I come in and cast Charm Person. I know I get disadvantage, but I can cast it more than once. And since interrogation only comes after a battle is won, we may be looking at a long rest before the next encounter. Why not gamble on Charm Person with unused spell slots at that point? So let's say I successfully Charm the goblin after 3 tries. As a trickery cleric, I would want to speak to the goblin alone. I would try to convince him that I'm his friend, possibly pretending to be secretly working for his chieftain. Then start asking questions. If I ask something he thinks I should know, like the way to the goblin den, I tell him my memory is bad and I forgot. I would even heal the goblin to get him to trust me. Anyway, no torture, which is an 'evil' act. This is my favorite use of Charm Person and I think worthwhile, though circumstantial.
Charm intimidation for interrogation. You don't have to torture, but good doesn't mean you can't threaten evil doers
Honestly even for a good player I’d recommend that intimidation and scaring people is a good way to avoid doing something more evil like bloodshed
Queso. I'm a PF player, I went into 5e and looked through the Cleric options and saw trickery..
It was an obvious choice, w/some feats.
idk how anyone says it's bad. It's very, very good.
Like 30 minutes in I was convinced I didn't want to try trickery, 45 minutes in you pulled me back in. Love your analysis ability and I'm thankful you give a view of all sides.
I really do like your review of this archetype. I think you looked at it is a more balanced form than most others have. I honestly think they have seen "certain" shows and seen her doing more than what their DMs have allowed. Trickery Is personally my favorite RP based cleric. I made a cleric of Waukeen, who is trickery and she uses bureaucracy, forgery and such to get info and into secret areas normally others can't, without Stealth. I see Trickery as a compliment to go along with the likes of Rogues, Whisper Bards. Trickery a domain for a playful character, someone who isn't meaning too much physical harm, they could also be a morally grey cleric. Or at least in my opinion.
Keep up the great content. Love and peace.
Thanks my friend. Your Cleric of Waukeen sounds like lots of fun. Waukeen (and Grazzt) are the subjects of one of my favorite pieces of D&D art. www.toddlockwood.com/dinner/
16:43 Talking about arcane domain clerics, what if you have magic initiate (druid) shillelagh as bonus action, then booming blade? at levels 5+ it can be good with half plate and shield using a club ;) Oh and would you take green flame lade as well or go for ray of frost/prestidigitation/ or another wizard cantrip?
If I were to redo the trickery cleric I would keep everything the same but change the invisibility channel divinity either so it’s cast on reaction, or keep it as an action and allow the cleric to cast spells during that round then it stays useful in a variety of creative ways, that’s what the trickster cleric is all about creative uses not so much combat, the only other change I would make is the divine strike instead giving the trickster cleric a glyph of warding so they can lay traps and feel more as though they can trick others and the contingency spell for those anime style “ahah I knew you’d do that moments” because this class is as powerful as you are creative and both these spells allow you to be really creative in how you approach combat
(Edit I accidentally wrote illusion when I meant invisibility)
And as a dm I’d rule that invoke duplicity is a perfect replication of you, that means it creates shadows it can create the same sounds you can it can give off smell it’s you in every conceivable way but, it has no mass and it passes through stuff, it can’t touch like most illusions, this isn’t extreme either a third level illusion can do all this but this is a gods given PERFECT illusion, one should imagine what sorts of things that entails by comparing it to other illusions, just remember if you want it to talk you’ve got to be close enough to use your own senses so you can hear and will it to respond
And the capstone is useful too you can have a duplicate on every team mate ready to pocket heal them you can sit back in safety
I'm doing a trickery/rogue (i'm aiming at +5 dex and +4 wis, i know... i should have done the opposite) because i didn't want to be' a full caster, i get lot of skills and by taking only 3 rogue levels i can decide to get the trickster or assassin subclass... the first grants a decent amount of wizard spells like magic hand, but i think that getting the assassin one will give a great improvement on the melee side of the character making him crit most of the times, doubling the weapon damage... the sneak attack, and even the divine strike! Plus the profiency on making poisons will make me add other variants of them on the blade improving the damage even more (i know about the poison resistance but i will talk to my dm about it) then i think i'll just get some feats to increase my wisdom (I started with 15)... invisibility, magic hand and maybe agathys armor... not the best and efficient cleric but very funny to play imo..
I play a Wisdom/Dex Trickster Cleric, Kenku. A+ at all levels. Still like my rogue... but this makes a great shaman.
As a DM with the duplicity thing I would at least make the first attack or round of attacks be a coin flip which one gets attacked. After that might start giving the enemies a chance to disbelieve the illusion. Now you do some clever shell game business with your movement and make a skill roll, we might go back to the 50/50
Take the charm person spell seriously, I am currently playing a tasha feywild ranger at level 5. we needed to interrogate someone who was likely to lash out and breath fire on us the second we opened the door. I casted charm person on them, I wasn't expecting it to work my DC at level 4 was a 12. they had advantage, because they were already hostile..... they rolled a 6 and an 8. we saved ourselves so much trouble by being able to ask him anything for a clear hour.
So consider that I, a HALF CASTER was able to make good use of my limited spell slots, compared to a full caster who will always have it prepared as well, while focusing more on their Wisdom to make the DC higher.
Contagion doesn't have any effect until after the 3rd failed save. It is already listed in sage advice, and I heard they intend to clarify it with errata. Contagion is IMO a spell great for NPCs but almost useless for PCs.
Here's what Contagion does with the November errata:
Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned.
At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration.
Since this spell induces a natural disease in its target, any effect that removes a disease or otherwise ameliorates a disease's effects apply to it.
Blinding Sickness. Pain grips the creature's mind, and its eyes turn milky white. The creature has disadvantage on Wisdom checks and Wisdom saving throws and is blinded.
Filth Fever. A raging fever sweeps through the creature's body. The creature has disadvantage on Strength checks, Strength saving throws, and attack rolls that use Strength.
Flesh Rot. The creature's flesh decays. The creature has disadvantage on Charisma checks and vulnerability to all damage.
Mindfire. The creature's mind becomes feverish. The creature has disadvantage on Intelligence checks and Intelligence saving throws, and the creature behaves as if under the effects of the confusion spell during combat.
Seizure. The creature is overcome with shaking. The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity checks, Dexterity saving throws, and attack rolls that use Dexterity.
Slimy Doom. The creature begins to bleed uncontrollably. The creature has disadvantage on Constitution checks and Constitution saving throws. In addition, whenever the creature takes damage, it is stunned until the end of its next turn.
Spell Tags:
IMO anything that will survive long enough for Contagion to take effect probably has a great con save and probably legendary resistance. I'm not sure if just the poisoned condition is worth a 5th level slot.
Christopher McKee It definitely is not worth it for a 5th level slots. Not to mention most things at higher levels are immune to poison, meaning for those creatures this spell is now utterly useless instead of mostly useless.
Sometimes I don’t understand what the dev team is thinking. If they were going to errata it anyway, just fix Slimey Doom and rule the spell by RAW.
@@M0ebius I love it as an NPC spell, because it could be a great plot hook to hit a low level party with, but I do agree as a PC, it is useless.
So I'm going to try a new character and he's one rogue and trick Cleric 3 for now, the party had absolutely no stealth or heels at all And he's an elf so he's using a longbow and getting sneak attack every time he uses it. That's okay damage when I'm not casting spell
the cleric spell list may not be super fancy.
but its got banish.
My current character is a Trickster rogue 4/ trickery cleric 5. It’s a blast. Lower levels sneak attack is great. Higher spell casting later. All the skills. Better mage hand. Invoke duplicity. Fun.
That Divine Strike ability should've a confusion-thingy attached to it, it would make much more sense! I know confusion is not an energy type, but well i never said I had all figured out! xP
That would be cool. Might even convince me to pick up a weapon..
Oh yes, it's the weakest domain.
*Looks at Jester Lavorre and how she tricked a hag into eating a laced baked good so she could cast Modify Memory to break a friend's curse*
DnD is too complicated for my tiny brain. Thanks for this series it's so helpfull!
I agree with almost everything you're saying here but I do disagree with how little value you put on the other Domain Features outside of the Domain Spell Lists. I don't think Arcana OR Trickery Clerics get very good features from their Domains. But other Domains like Knowledge, Life, and Grave, DO actually get good features! That being said, Trickery Clerics almost definitely get the best Domain Spells, and being a spellcaster is one of the main draws for Clerics, for sure.
I hope that you noticed that Cloak of Shadows isn't for just a round.
"As an action, you become invisible until the end of your next turn. You become invisible if you attack or cast a spell." A turn is a lot longer than a round, right?
Until the end of your next turn is approximately a round. A round is the turns of all creatures in initiative. So this lasts through the turn you used it, through all the creatures that until your turn, and then until the end of your turn if you don't attack or cast a spell. Unless I'm missing something.
I suspect that "perfect replica" is about how the rules don't say you can see through invoke duplicity with inspect checks like most illusions.
I also suspect that if the trickery domain was called arcana domain (arcana was called something else) then a lot of the complaints would vanish.
timeforsuchaword How would any of Trickery Domain’s abilities make sense for Arcana domain?
@@M0ebius Because invisibility and illusionary duplicates are illusion type magic, almost all of which is arcane. Calling the domain trickery sets an expectation that it doesn't really seem to meet very well.
timeforsuchaword Illusion is just one of a dozen schools. It makes no sense thematically that a cleric who worships the god of magic itself gets invisibility and duplicate instead of straight up more and/or better spells.
@@M0ebius They do get better spells; that's the point of the video. My point isn't that arcana is misnamed, it's that trickery is misnamed.
If you read norse mythology Loki (the god of trickery) use Polymorph all the time.