Thanks for the heads up, I have a two 2 pole DC breakers made by Schneider with the same misprinted information and no diagram. I used a test meter at first to find which sides had continuity which lead me to the same conclusions you demonstrated here.
I had trouble understanding the sign convention on certain breakers. Red cable is for (+) and Black is for (-) but the top and bottom of the breaker have different labellings. The bottom did not change but the top was swapped. Our PV Positive current enters at the top left terminal (+) of the Breaker and exit at the left bottom termina (-) l. The current circulates through the load to re-enter the breaker at the bottom right (+) and exit at the top right terminal (-) to finally complete the loop at the PV Negative connector. Assuming that a small voltage drop occurs at each poles of the DC breaker, then its very similar to KVL in terms of labelling.
Confusing on the wire input to output. Black to red being correct. Are not breakers to be "a break in the same line", just a continuation of the same conductive wire?
This has to one of the most confusing videos I’ve ever seen. One minute a wiring configuration is correct and the next it’s causing catastrophic failures/fires.
Hi gents, thanks for this. I totally understand why a DC bias would saturate the sense core and prevent the trip circuit recognising a fault current, but what I'm not fully clear on is the origin of that DC, both in terms of loads in normal operation and under fault condition. Any further reading you can suggest is appreciated. A typical modern electronic load with an SMPS will draw power from the supply mains waveform in a chopped way, but you mention in the video that loads can/will actually backfeed DC towards the supply - can you shed some more light on this please? Or is the DC you're referring to a product of a downstream SMPS load pulling a pulsed current from the AC mains that is somehow manifesting as DC in the sense core? At the same time as asking this, a more general question on RCDs - as we escalate up through the 'grades' of RCD towards B, my understanding is that we progressively make the device able to DETECT and ACT UPON more types of complex leakage/fault current associated with more industrial VFDs etc. Or, have I got this wrong - and by escalating up through the grades we are instead making them progressively immune to their sense circuitry being thwarted by similar masking effects for their respective type of current? Maybe it's both. Sorry if any of the above is gibberish - shouldn't write posts when it's late...thanks for any advice offered.
If the current flow is in the wrong direction the magnets don't pull the arc into the arc suppression chamber, they deflect it into the body of the breaker.
1) Включение выключателя в сеть с соблюдением полярности - ничего не происходит. 2) Выключатель установлен в сеть обратной полярностью; параметры сети U=376 В, I=7,5 А. Как итог: сильное дымовыделение с последующим воспламенением выключателя. 3) Выключатель установлен с соблюдением полярности, а ток в цепи составляет 40 А, что в 4 раза превышает его номинал. Тепловая защита, как это и должно быть, разомкнула защищаемую цепь через несколько секунд. 4) Последний и самый жесткий тест проводился с таким же 4-х кратным превышением по току и обратной полярностью. Результат не заставил себя долго ждать - мгновенное воспламенение.
To summarize it all, if the breaker construction is (+, top left) and (-, top right) and the opposite in the lower part of the breaker the positive connections on the top and the lower part of the breaker shall both be on the left side of the breaker?
No. Just assume that you have an internal magnet aligned with the direction of the DC current. The PV+ connects to the breaker at (+,top left) that is more positive than the (-, bottom left) because the current flows from top to bottom in that left pole. Likewise the current returns from the load in the opposite direction (+, bottom right) and exits at the (-, top right) at the right pole to reconnect to the PV-
Typically it's because they use a magnetic field to force the arc in the opening contacts into the snuffer comb. If the current is flowing the wrong direction, the opposite magnetic field polarity would be required, so the arc is not snuffed and continues until part of the breaker catches fire.
Adding to what Ken said, I think not only is the arc not snuffed, but I think the arc is pushed in the opposite direction, away from the snuffer comb. I'm not sure if or how that contributes to the failure.
Also the over current bimetallic strip may bend the wrong way too... actually I'm second guessing that because I think in curves the same way regardless of polarity, I think the direction of curl is determined by the metals used, not by the polarity so maybe I'm way off, but maybe I'm right in which case it would be a contributing factor too.
@@ericbakuladavis yeah I was starting to realize that as I was typing, also your probably right about the mechanism being a function of the differential in thermal expansion.
DC breakers are deigned to run on either AC or DC.... Maybe understand why you buy quality breakers. Where they actually produce a Data sheet to read. As ABB rates there S201UDC for 125 volts AC or 60 volts DC max voltage. Along with the trip profile the breaker is deigned for C-K
will a house hold 15 20 amp circut breaker work on 120 volts dc from series of car battery's for emergency incondesent lights and would a 15 20 amp fuse for ac house hold work thankyou
Used a lot over here (Europe). It disconnects both the hot and neutral wire (whereas in the NL for example, a breaker is half the size and usually only disconnects the hot wire). I think this one is much safer. Where I live, hot should be left and neutral right, but you never know someone makes a mistake somewhere in the circuit where hot becomes neutral and neutral hot. With this breaker, the entire circuit will be turned off completely. They're standard used in Belgium.
As you can see at 1:46 the red wire to the left, that's the positive wire (+) and black to the right site at the curcuit braker. That's the negative wire (-). and the reversed polarity you can see at 2:08 at the top of the circuit breaker. Right there, they put the black negative left and the red positive at the right and that is what they meaned.
I installed a dc breaker 16 amp incorrectly between a solar panel and a gt inverter and the inverter made a long beeping sound. No lights were on on the inverter during this. Do you think I burned the inverter?
@@brianleeper5737 That's right. I assume, that this is due to the divide of 3500 watts / 220 volts. If you do so, you get almost 16 amp. Apart of that, we also have 10 amps (2200W) 20 amp (4400W) and 25 amp (5500W). And yes it goes on with 32 amp and some more but i don't know them all, but the connection to each house is even 63 amps almost four times than the standard 16 amps.
@@marceld.945 Probably these breakers are available in standard sizes that correspond to the ampacity of standard wire sizes. That is the case in the USA, where we have 15 amp = 14 awg wire size, 20 amp = 12 awg wire size, 30 amp = 10 awg wire size. But in the USA you can also find some odd sizes of breakers that don't match up with the ampacity of a standard wire size, like a 25 amp or 35 amp circuit breaker, what would that be good for? Refrigeration / air conditioning compressors have a "maximum overcurrent protection" MOP rating, and you might use a 25 or 35 amp breaker for the circuit which feeds that compressor, depending on it's rating. As a side note, they also have a "minimum circuit ampacity" MCA rating as well--which is used to size the wire. So you might have a compressor with an MOP of 25 amps, but an MCA of 20 amps. In that case you could use a 25 amp circuit breaker with 12 AWG wire to feed this compressor. You're only allowed to do this with circuits that feed compressors, because any other type of circuit would require you to use a 20 amp breaker with 12 AWG wire.
Brian Leeper Thats right. the most common standard here in germany is 16 amps. If you use 1 single Phase with the neutal, you need 1,5mm² massive copper wire at 230 Volts. But if you use all 3 Phases, you need even 2,5 mm² for 16 amps. with the 3 Phases, you have 400 Volts here in germany and it's enogh for the most machines in companies here. Optional, if needed, there is 32 amps availeble for high power machines. My dad have in his workshop a high power spot welding machine. It needs all the phases and needs to be feeded with 63 amps and if someone needs anything like that, it's required to install a separate fuse box first. It's not allowed to take the power from an already existing installation. Also important is the Residual current circuit breaker which disconnects as soon as someone gets in contact with one of the 3 phases. The trigger criterion for this is 30 mA maximum!
It would sure as hell be useful to know which was the load side.....
Thanks for the heads up, I have a two 2 pole DC breakers made by Schneider with the same misprinted information and no diagram. I used a test meter at first to find which sides had continuity which lead me to the same conclusions you demonstrated here.
misprinted 👍 test by dc ammeter
Hi, im abit confused at 1:10.. The red cable at positive n black cable at negative mcb... Which part is incorrect polarity?
I had trouble understanding the sign convention on certain breakers. Red cable is for (+) and Black is for (-) but the top and bottom of the breaker have different labellings. The bottom did not change but the top was swapped. Our PV Positive current enters at the top left terminal (+) of the Breaker and exit at the left bottom termina (-) l. The current circulates through the load to re-enter the breaker at the bottom right (+) and exit at the top right terminal (-) to finally complete the loop at the PV Negative connector. Assuming that a small voltage drop occurs at each poles of the DC breaker, then its very similar to KVL in terms of labelling.
Good to know polarity is so important !
Confusing on the wire input to output. Black to red being correct. Are not breakers to be "a break in the same line", just a continuation of the same conductive wire?
some products are misprinted ... test poles by dc ammeter
You let out the magic smoke. That always makes things stop working properly.
Now im confused.. how is this supposed to be wired then?
This has to one of the most confusing videos I’ve ever seen. One minute a wiring configuration is correct and the next it’s causing catastrophic failures/fires.
Hi gents, thanks for this. I totally understand why a DC bias would saturate the sense core and prevent the trip circuit recognising a fault current, but what I'm not fully clear on is the origin of that DC, both in terms of loads in normal operation and under fault condition. Any further reading you can suggest is appreciated. A typical modern electronic load with an SMPS will draw power from the supply mains waveform in a chopped way, but you mention in the video that loads can/will actually backfeed DC towards the supply - can you shed some more light on this please? Or is the DC you're referring to a product of a downstream SMPS load pulling a pulsed current from the AC mains that is somehow manifesting as DC in the sense core?
At the same time as asking this, a more general question on RCDs - as we escalate up through the 'grades' of RCD towards B, my understanding is that we progressively make the device able to DETECT and ACT UPON more types of complex leakage/fault current associated with more industrial VFDs etc. Or, have I got this wrong - and by escalating up through the grades we are instead making them progressively immune to their sense circuitry being thwarted by similar masking effects for their respective type of current? Maybe it's both.
Sorry if any of the above is gibberish - shouldn't write posts when it's late...thanks for any advice offered.
If the current flow is in the wrong direction the magnets don't pull the arc into the arc suppression chamber, they deflect it into the body of the breaker.
@@michaelstora70 dunning kruger
Don't think I would want to be sleeping in the same room :)
1) Включение выключателя в сеть с соблюдением полярности - ничего не происходит.
2) Выключатель установлен в сеть обратной полярностью; параметры сети U=376 В, I=7,5 А. Как итог: сильное дымовыделение с последующим воспламенением выключателя.
3) Выключатель установлен с соблюдением полярности, а ток в цепи составляет 40 А, что в 4 раза превышает его номинал. Тепловая защита, как это и должно быть, разомкнула защищаемую цепь через несколько секунд.
4) Последний и самый жесткий тест проводился с таким же 4-х кратным превышением по току и обратной полярностью. Результат не заставил себя долго ждать - мгновенное воспламенение.
To summarize it all, if the breaker construction is (+, top left) and (-, top right) and the opposite in the lower part of the breaker the positive connections on the top and the lower part of the breaker shall both be on the left side of the breaker?
No. Just assume that you have an internal magnet aligned with the direction of the DC current. The PV+ connects to the breaker at (+,top left) that is more positive than the (-, bottom left) because the current flows from top to bottom in that left pole. Likewise the current returns from the load in the opposite direction (+, bottom right) and exits at the (-, top right) at the right pole to reconnect to the PV-
why confuse and switch wire color on bottom @ 0:21
Ive seen this happening with several Solar PV insallations in Indonesia...Installers are not aware of this.
do they not test it after installation?
@@michaellevitski6069 It's not certain that it will go bad like this in any case, so you could miss something like this.
Toasty... thanks for posting this, I'd always wondered just what happens when the polarity is wrong.
Thanks!
Ok, what specifically about these DC breakers makes them sensitive to polarity? Are the trip mechanisms electronic or what?
Typically it's because they use a magnetic field to force the arc in the opening contacts into the snuffer comb. If the current is flowing the wrong direction, the opposite magnetic field polarity would be required, so the arc is not snuffed and continues until part of the breaker catches fire.
Adding to what Ken said, I think not only is the arc not snuffed, but I think the arc is pushed in the opposite direction, away from the snuffer comb. I'm not sure if or how that contributes to the failure.
Also the over current bimetallic strip may bend the wrong way too... actually I'm second guessing that because I think in curves the same way regardless of polarity, I think the direction of curl is determined by the metals used, not by the polarity so maybe I'm way off, but maybe I'm right in which case it would be a contributing factor too.
@@binaryglitch64 I think bimetallic strips bend because of heat, not polarity. The two metals expand at different rates as they get hot.
@@ericbakuladavis yeah I was starting to realize that as I was typing, also your probably right about the mechanism being a function of the differential in thermal expansion.
AC breakers don't work well with DC, DC is crazy on arcing compared to AC, DC breakers have special arc cutoff mechanism that cut the arc
@Cupid Stunt also DC breaker shall absorb more heat
DC breakers are deigned to run on either AC or DC.... Maybe understand why you buy quality breakers. Where they actually produce a Data sheet to read. As ABB rates there S201UDC for 125 volts AC or 60 volts DC max voltage. Along with the trip profile the breaker is deigned for C-K
What happens if you use a DC breaker in AC?
Will be just overdimensioned and should work fine.
But.... I've always wired them as shown but mind haven't caught on the in 3 years and 1000 uses
will a house hold 15 20 amp circut breaker work on 120 volts dc from series of car battery's for emergency incondesent lights and would a 15 20 amp fuse for ac house hold work thankyou
+David Berquist probably put a few heaters on the circuit to see if it trips
No it probably won't. If it does work, I still wouldn't trust it.
NO. I mean yes it will trip but it will likely arc for quite a while similar to a DC breaker with reversed polarity
Is that a DC circuit breaker with 500vDC rating? In your opinion, we should buy a circuit breaker with or without Polarised?
what kind of breaker is theat i never seen it in a panel nothing like square d ge cutler hamer
It's a DIN rail mounted breaker.
Fairly normal breaker... just DC rated. Looks like a normal double pole breaker
Used a lot over here (Europe). It disconnects both the hot and neutral wire (whereas in the NL for example, a breaker is half the size and usually only disconnects the hot wire).
I think this one is much safer. Where I live, hot should be left and neutral right, but you never know someone makes a mistake somewhere in the circuit where hot becomes neutral and neutral hot. With this breaker, the entire circuit will be turned off completely.
They're standard used in Belgium.
what do u mean by reverse polarity???
As you can see at 1:46 the red wire to the left, that's the positive wire (+) and black to the right site at the curcuit braker. That's the negative wire (-). and the reversed polarity you can see at 2:08 at the top of the circuit breaker. Right there, they put the black negative left and the red positive at the right and that is what they meaned.
Great video.
Very well toasted :D
Super...
Well it's not a breaker if it didn't trip
I installed a dc breaker 16 amp incorrectly between a solar panel and a gt inverter and the inverter made a long beeping sound. No lights were on on the inverter during this. Do you think I burned the inverter?
arnt circuit breakers 15. 20. 30 40. 50. 60. 100 amp I never seem a 16amp
European DIN rail mount breakers come in current ratings like 16 and 32 amps
@@brianleeper5737 That's right. I assume, that this is due to the divide of 3500 watts / 220 volts. If you do so, you get almost 16 amp. Apart of that, we also have 10 amps (2200W) 20 amp (4400W) and 25 amp (5500W). And yes it goes on with 32 amp and some more but i don't know them all, but the connection to each house is even 63 amps almost four times than the standard 16 amps.
@@marceld.945 Probably these breakers are available in standard sizes that correspond to the ampacity of standard wire sizes. That is the case in the USA, where we have 15 amp = 14 awg wire size, 20 amp = 12 awg wire size, 30 amp = 10 awg wire size. But in the USA you can also find some odd sizes of breakers that don't match up with the ampacity of a standard wire size, like a 25 amp or 35 amp circuit breaker, what would that be good for? Refrigeration / air conditioning compressors have a "maximum overcurrent protection" MOP rating, and you might use a 25 or 35 amp breaker for the circuit which feeds that compressor, depending on it's rating. As a side note, they also have a "minimum circuit ampacity" MCA rating as well--which is used to size the wire.
So you might have a compressor with an MOP of 25 amps, but an MCA of 20 amps. In that case you could use a 25 amp circuit breaker with 12 AWG wire to feed this compressor. You're only allowed to do this with circuits that feed compressors, because any other type of circuit would require you to use a 20 amp breaker with 12 AWG wire.
Brian Leeper Thats right. the most common standard here in germany is 16 amps. If you use 1 single Phase with the neutal, you need 1,5mm² massive copper wire at 230 Volts. But if you use all 3 Phases, you need even 2,5 mm² for 16 amps. with the 3 Phases, you have 400 Volts here in germany and it's enogh for the most machines in companies here. Optional, if needed, there is 32 amps availeble for high power machines. My dad have in his workshop a high power spot welding machine. It needs all the phases and needs to be feeded with 63 amps and if someone needs anything like that, it's required to install a separate fuse box first. It's not allowed to take the power from an already existing installation. Also important is the Residual current circuit breaker which disconnects as soon as someone gets in contact with one of the 3 phases. The trigger criterion for this is 30 mA maximum!
thank for info the shoot circuit
I thought it's supposed to trip😕
its correct?
ua-cam.com/video/Cup5fMGaE2g/v-deo.html
1 and 2... positive wire??
3 and 4 negative?
its ok or its a mistake?
376 volts DC.. Must be a high frequency machine like a welder..
Or 10 solar panels in series....
on many solar panels, their maximum series ratings are like 1000V
Now imagine what would've happened if instead of interrupting a 7.5A load, it was a 750A fault current 🤣
Wen u do a video like this make sure u have rhe same dc brand cuz they r sum fake once just to let u know
H
Ig😅h😅i 😅i