Inside a cheap Chinese DIN rail time switch.
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- Опубліковано 14 січ 2016
- This is a cheap general purpose DIN rail mounting time switch I bought from eBay, purely to take a look inside to assess the quality of construction. It's branded Oktimer with a model number of THC15A.
Thge internal construction is actually quite good. Visually it's on a par with higher profile branded units. The circuitry also has a really neat trick to simply the regulation of a 24V supply. It uses a capacitive dropper followed by two options. The relay coil which pulls the voltage down to about 20V and a resistor which is switched on whenever the relay isn't, thus providing a very simple way of regulating the voltage with all the heat dissipated from a robust but cheap resistor. The resistor dissipated about 400mW.
It looks like the control module is capable of other functions, but I'm not sure what they are. There are two [pairs of linkable pads on the back and eight separate button inputs.
The ebay listing I got this from is www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141614784101 - Наука та технологія
I've been running these identical timers (four of them) for over 3 years now (24/7) with zero failure.... I really like these timers and the price is right!
please more of these Chinese industrial components love them, i even bought some of the emergency stop buttons after your video
For anyone concerned with reliability, I have used these exact timers in my shops air compressor control panel for the past 5 years now without any issues. One timer controls a mains supply contactor(so compressor is de-energized during closed hours), and a second timer, coupled with a delay timer (5 seconds) for an auto moisture drain for the tank (drains moisture from the tank once an hour). System has worked flawlessly for 5 years since I built it and put it into service.
thank you, that kind of feedback is very helpfull
Another approach would be to clamp the 24v rail down to 5V (or whatever the clock supply is) when the relay is off, avoiding the dissipation in the resistor
+mikeselectricstuff I think they're trying to keep it at around 24V for two reasons. To ensure the trickle supply from the 24V cap to the control PCBs cap (via a resistor) stays constant, and also to ensure the relay immediately receives a full 24V from the cap before it sinks to the 20V under load to make sure it pulls in properly.
Dave from the EEVblog will be like: "Ahhhh, nasty chinese quality. Those nasty cheap electrolytic caps will die within a year." XD
This month, one year ago, you only had around 5.6K subs. Now you have ten times that! Keep it up Clive, love your videos!
+DJ S He is kind of right though...cheap electrolytic caps tend to fail earlier than good ones.
+DJ S Clive also got to the point in about one quarter of the time too.
+DJ S Finnaly I think he would say"Aaahhh!!! Bob's your uncle" :)
ANDIY GreenGanjaMan "And we're in like flynn."
"Well, that's a bit how ya doing."
~EEVBlog
+Colibri Even Nichicons are usually rated for 5000h or something like that, and more important factor is thermal design of the device - even the aerospace quality electrolytic will fail quickly if it's used on the high side of their rated temperature. Here, in low power device that doesn't get hot really any electrolytic will do;) I have plenty of appliances with 50 yo electrolytics that work without any problem, and on the contrary relatively new equipment like LCD computer screens that failed horribly because someone though that putting SMPS inside the case that gets hot with next to no ventilation is a good idea (what a bro you are, Samsung...).
I found a timer, easily found under the model name "MTD8" that has a very similar layout but has two buttons where the single large manual button exists on this model. Very interesting observation. It doesn't actually look like it has any additional functionality except the extra pad serves as a sort of hard-reset from what I can tell.
Those tracking slots are beautiful.
Good evening.
Just to shed some light on our "weird" language and abbreviations: "DIN" stands for "Deutsche Institut für Normen" and loosely translates to "German institute for standards".
Greetings from Germany
+Markus Bates Did they invent Wonderbras too? Man, Germans made ALL the good stuff!
/stupid comment I couldn't resist.
Surely it's "Deutscheinstitutfürnormen", the Germans don't use four words when one will do.
S1 and S2 are obviously for switching between the metric and imperial um... time.
Metric time would be so nice... Except that the US wouldn't adopt it and converting would be awful
i think they tried metric ie decimal time and calendars once in france, from about 1790~to 1805~
i have a button in my car that does nothing but change my speedometer and odometer from imperial to metric. I wonder how much money they could have saved by putting that in a submenu instead.
@@dndboy13 We actually have a new time standard for years now. ... it's called Unix time and just counts the seconds since epoch (1970-01-01T00:00:00Z).
Like the US is actually using the metric system - all units they use are specified in Metric. :)
The delay between you going through on - auto - off and the relay switching might be intentional, since the display is actually responding immediately. I think its intention is to not have the load switch on and off unnecessarily while you go through the settings and only after you have settled it switches the load.
+Jack White Pretty elaborate for cheap chinese elctronic -> usually cheap electronics software just sucks! (even though product can be actually quite good)
Now I know it take at least an hour of recording to make an 18 minutes video! Thanks Clive, a great way to start my Monday morning.
+Chris Brent I thought I stayed up late, but Clive is the master of nocturnal video making. That thing was showing 4:52am at the end of the video :S
+Julian Ilett You never know Julian... Clive could be pulling a fast one on us and setting the wrong time to see who notices! ;)
I have the 12v ones and thay work very well never miss a beat keep time and settings well evan if not powerd for a long time. very handy in the off grid world
What a clever designer, keeping the load on the dropper the same :-D
Ive got to give them full marks for smart engineering, cheap but nicely made.
The display pcb looks like its made by someone else, well its different in colour, it could be a generic job.
Great vid as usual Clive, keep 'em coming.
Great video
I've used similar timers like this and the "P" and "clock" button switch it to a count down timer when held together for a few seconds.
funny how i was tempted to buy a more expensive named brand to try and ensure longevity, however after watching this, im feeling relatively confident! cheers clive :) off to watch your other video now!
This is a very nice investigation. Thanks alot. Really like the way you describe it.
Love your accent. Keep up the amazing work!!
I bought multiple of these for an industrial application...works pretty good
Well...holy shit, that's a surprisingly good chinese DIN rail timer! :o I want one for no particular reason besides maybe the unique cleverness in its design..
+ChaosHusky looks well built, the real question is, is it reliable? ive had some cheap times, that randomly reset, or crash or just sometimes crash upon switching the load, i had so much hassle from even a timeguard one i went back to the pure mechanical ones! (my needs were simple so i could)
+jusb1066 I use a mechanical (electromechanical, really) timer because they are almost ridiculously easy to set.
the big/double button used to switch off/on/outo in this model,
there is other model wich look the same but the big button get locked up outomaticly after 5 secs.
you need to click on one side 3 time to unlock the other side, wich is the off/on/outo button :)
i have 3 of this modules installd and runing hot water boiler, works great about 2 years now.
nice vid
You are a wealth of information. Thank you!
love your videos, keep em coming.
The relay manufacturer (songle)has been around for a while, with an impressive range of products. Lots of google hits.
I have this timer(got from aliexp). Using it to control the Air conditioner(1000w) and still working okay since 3+ years.
Clive the reason we have ring mains in the uk is in the mid 1900s we used a lot of high kW oil heaters instead of central heating, so instead of using a higher CSA I.e 4mm t&e it was cheaper to run the extra 2.5mm t&e back to the DB.
That's really impressive. My only slight concern though is the lack of insulation over the screw terminals.
The switching delay makes sense as someone may be flicking through the options. In this case it's better to wait until the "wetware" has stopped switching between the options.
i got a Siemens din rail time switch laying around, would you want it to compare to the chinese one? its a 7LF4
Of course SIEMENS is the best. That brand is pricey but sure of quality. I can't find it very common in the electronic stores in my country.
I really like your videos clive. How do you feel about video editing. I guess people would really like an alternate angle in some situations. Anyway, keep up the good work
I am thinking about rebuilding my homes solar power distro panel with DIN rail modules.. Might be a neat project when I get bored.
you should get a endorsement deal with ebay for reviews lol keep up the good work clive :)
i cant have enough of these video's!! :)
Nice to see something with decent build quality, rather than the usual EEVblog teardowns of terrible power supplies!
clive please go to china and do a travel blog,you'd be great at it.
That appears to be a micro flux capacitor. Nice! And the plumbing looks just ingenious. LOL. Actually, I do not know what I am talking about, and you seem to be quite smart.
Last week I've bought a cheap din timer from ebay for £10 for ny little automatic starwberry "farm". It had a ground connection, so I took use of it. When I powered it on, it tripped the 5mA R.C.D. I opened it up and I found a 33K resistor between L & PE. I asked the manufacturer about that, and they kindly responded: It is a timeable R.C.D. trip
That's odd. Can you give me a link to the listing?
@@bigclivedotcom The've deleted it after I complained.
@@bigclivedotcom I think it was called a "super timing module DIN timer switch scrren lcd module or something. Imagine a confusing name like this.
@@bigclivedotcom Try typing this into ebay maybe it will show up. It was a blue coloured device with 10 buttons and a buzzer built in
Sold with multiple Voltages, however the one I received (12V) had no indication of which way around the +V and -V was on the input, which just had the sin symbol for AC in.
A bit of digging around on the www and found that pin 1 is +V pin 2 being -V. I see Clive says there is a delay between switching over manual, but the one I have has auto as mid position key press on the manual changeover in either direction on, auto off and off auto on.
Nice video as all your stuff is
DIN = Deutsche Intustrie Norm = German Industrial Standard.
+Taguun It used to be, but today DIN = Deutsches Institut für Normung = German Institute For Standardization. This is also the reason it is called a DIN standard and not only DIN. If you were correct a DIN standard would be a "german industrial standard standard".
+FischOderAal Just like how in sports they do stuff like "MLB baseball," which would be "major league baseball baseball."
Tim Ramich Regardless, DIN is not anymore the abbreviation for "Deutsche Industrie Norm". It may still be commonly used but it's still incorrect :)
+FischOderAal I wasn't arguing, nor could I care less about anything related to Germany.
+Taguun ich dachte aber auch es heißt deutsche industrie norm :P. dann gegoogled
Songle are pretty good relays these days. Pretty sure they are one of the biggest relay manufacturer in China. So far, I haven't had any issue with Songle relays. I have a ton of devices with them.
17:07 - "...I don't think that's lithium..." While I'm sure Clive isn't surprised, I'm sure many people would be surprised to find that many items you find in a store that say they have lithium batteries in them really have NiMH. It makes the device cheaper to produce and _most_ consumers just believe what is written on the package. I had an old Craig MP3 player that I used for years until its runtime started diminishing even though it said it was fully charged. It said right on the back of the unit that it had a lithium battery. Opened it up and surprise (not! :)), it had a NiMH battery pack. I was able to find a replacement NiMH for it and it works fine now but I guess it goes without saying, "Don't believe everything you read."
hey princess dress sounds like they sell all of the things I like! dresses and electric gadgets! thanks for pointing me to them :D
The clock circuit is quiet interesting. I wanna buy it. Separated :)
the real timer is quite expensive compared to this one .We have used them for controling lights ventilation and believe it or not proofing ovens for bread ..We use the timer to control a contactor with a 120v coil ..They last pretty long considering the way they are made very reliable but pain in the but to read and program especially when you can't see the screen because of flour grease and all the other stuff floating around the bakery .Sometimes we just use an old style mechanical clock work timers but they really him up with stuff in the air .these don't .they each have their applications
Nice to finaly see a good quality chineese product :D
They had to be somewere...
The relay seems to have a standard package/pinout, so in case of damage/quality issue, you can replace it with an expensive brand one.
Hi! I've just found your channel and really enjoy it! After checking out your website and some of the links on ePanorama, I'm left with a question I thought I'd ask: I'm interested in studying up on electronics such as those you feature on your channel and am looking for the equivalent of a good undergraduate textbook or two. Do you have any recommendations?
DIN stands for Deutsche Institut fur Normung, which translates loosely as “German Institute for Standards.” DIN is a German organization that establishes standards for industrial and electrical equipment.
Thanks Clive for another great review! Have a similar timer on my workshop lights but switch the load using a contactor relay. Have you seen the equally cheap DIN rail ammeter/voltmeter?
my experience with these is that they work ... if you need a DIN timer for lights or sprinklers they are fine
Great videos as always. Surprised to see that your leads are not GS38.
I love these but as new units that just arrived, I occasionally need to replace the battery as they have been in the warehouse for a long time 😅
And the thigh bones connected to the knee bone hahaha thanks great video BIG CLIVE BRO !!!
It's a copy of the Swedish Malmberg DHC15A Digital Time Switch. The difference between the two is, Malmberg guarantees that their switch won't catch on fire. DIN German industry standard.
Halfway through this video and I am impressed by the build quality ... The rest of the video will have to wait - Sorry Clive, takeout Chinese food and a good apple cider trumps you :)
+Richard T Chinese food (particularly special fried rice) and cider trumps everything.
Mmm nom nom
Leftover chinese food is what I just had for dinner, too...
I fucking love this channel. I was wondering if these would be reliable and you have already ripped one to bits
Realise this is an old video, but I was wondering while watching it, what are the safety implications of using a capacitive dropper vs an isolated supply on something like this?
Vibrations or bumping could reset the timer because of that connector. I wonder why they didn't mount the backup battery on the logic board. The logic board could be an of the shelf one, that would be a motive.
A small lesson on Chinese packaging logic: if one orders a pack of fragile halogen bulbs, you get them loosely in a zip lock bag packed into a grey envelope. But if one orders a pack of 100 robust diodes, they're bag will be wrapped in foam
Bit off topic but have you ever done a review of your micro screw driver set? The one you use in almost all your videos, it seems really good and would love to know where you got yours :)
I love your videos. I I'm intrested in learning more about electric / circuit component's . Is there any book what I could buy what will give me some info / class on how the components work ? (diode , transistors , resistors, ....) . I do know how electricity work. Overall that is what I do for living ( elect. installer in houses ). Hope you will answer me. Keep up the great videos , they fun to watch
+CptSmoke In this day and age the Internet is the best place to learn. Who needs a book when Google is there to answer every question you have and then the ones that lead on from there. I would suggest buying some cheap kits on ebay, some electronic grade solder and a soldering iron, and just start playing.
Hi can you show us how this switch wiring can be installed --what wire go where from 5 slots provided. I want to connect it to my boundary wall lights.
It is exactly the same as the much more expensive brand Gewis, even the instructions are the same apart from the logo. Been using one for 7 years and one for 1 year, both going strong.
I think that wide button is reset and manual, remember that you pressed that to turn it on and off, the reset may be that you press 2 buttons to reset the timing functions (not the time) if you screw up. i remember a timer having that ability.
Is s1 connected to the output from that module ? if so there could be an option for a dual channel timer, but would need a bigger case for the relays
Hey clive! Little comment from Germany: DIN actually stands for "Deutsche IndustrieNorm" which means german industrial norm
Useful in a shed distribution box to control external lighting I'm sure... :P
I bought so many of these (Although I can almost guarantee they were Not this exact model) in my country, and they were all Shyte.
The ones they sell locally, have a flaw where the clock And relay can be triggered directly from the battery, even when disconnected from mains.
I found this out after a power failure, when I actually heard the relay buzzing, trying to pull itself on, but obviously, the little battery that maybe once could, couldn't any more.
Bought a different design, which only allows 24 hour programing with a touch sensitive screen to set the unit (Will NEVER buy another one of those either as the display is crap and warps out of focus when you try pressing where the touch symbols are.
After buying the touch input DIN one, I decided this was the last time. From here on out, it's going to be the sonoff SV units, which connect via Wi-Fi, so they never go out of sync with time, and you can program them directly with schedules, or manually activate it from a smart phone.
The only thing I would have to get is a beefier relay, as this runs the pool pump currently 🤔
Ps. What abomination of a tool actually down votes an informative video like this?
those pads on the back could be a serial connection for programming
hi, recently my thc stop functioning and have a strange simptom:1-when running on main voltage the display is blank and no option is aviable, 2-dissconnecting from main and the display are ok for a while until the backup battery is dischargewhat can be the problem?thx
I've found that more niche stuff from China like this tends to be pretty reasonable in quality. Still gotta watch out for poor design to begin with, but methinks the lower production volumes make it less important to shave off every penny that they can.
Sir, question. im working on making alarm (fully automatic) for break time period, can i use this device to drive my system? or can i set this to multiple time to alarm? tnx
I got a chinese timer also yes its a cheap but it does its function first i installed it on my own house and it works since march this year for the price you can not ask gor more
I would like to use this switch if it has MULTIPLE timepoints (and multiple relays correspondingly). I really need to timeswitch two loads four times a day. It sounds more reasonable to run just one timer per household... Please, Clive, tell us if it is possible? Is there a way to modify this switch?
Have you ever done a teardown of one of those Songle relays? I see them in so many Chinese modules these days
+codebeard I've never actually opened one. It's always hard to judge contacts by looking at them though. A real test would involve continuous operation under load.
2:46 What was that thing that you pulled just barely into frame? I couldn't tell what it is.
Mine burned out after the lightning. It was bought from hardware store. They don't sell these anymore in my country, have to get a new one from web I guess
hi. i have the same timer but the screen only works for several minutes without electricity. should i change the battery?
I'm DESPERATE to find complete documentation for this timer. There are at least 5 states it can have: AUTO, AUTO OFF, AUTO ON, ON and OFF. It also has pulse and countdown timer modes. My documentation is horrible. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Glade I could find your work, I have one of these timers that has blown the input capacitor and cooked the accompanying resistor. Do you perhaps have these two values for me. I would like to repair this unit, it is a 220v input timer. This happened from new so it's a new component failure. You did refer to the cap being 330nF at 630v, I think the res should be 550ohms . Hope you can assist with my rebuild.
DIN stands for (historically): 'German Industrial Norm' (=Deutsche Industrie Norm). Nowadays its referring to the 'German Institute for Normation' (=Deutsche Institut für Normung).
630v Cap is most likely used for places where 480v AC might be used.
Hmm, I have the same exact timer for my dad's egg incubator since he takes care of chickens and is a cockfighter, but, the one on the incubator has the brand "Sinotimer" instead of "Oktimer", the pcb, chassis, layout and everything of the timer here on the video is exact same as my incubator, just the brand is different.
What sort of enclosure would this go in? A UK distribution board has the live mains input bus bar along the bottom, and output at the top?
+hyperion8008 If used in a distribution board it would be wired on its own via one of the circuit breakers. DIN rail is used mainly in industrial control panels.
maybe the manufacturers are watching you for feedback ;)
Hello, I want to use it in an 24v dc installation, on which positions to put plus wire? Thank you
For quite a while now, I am looking for a low power time switch (to switch a battery driven LED strip). With a backup time of 3 years from a small NiMH Battery, this upper display and key module should do the trick. Are there any markings on that module, like Partnumber or something similar?
+konohh You'd have to remove it from a cheap digital plug-in timeswitch. I don't know anywhere that sells the actual modules.
Chinese manufacturing is a complete enigma to me. I've bought things which I just couldn't believe the price and quality then other things which have been utter rubbish to the point of dangerous. Then again my favourite machine vice is a Soviet era monster which is incredibly good. I just wish there was a way of separating the good from the bad before buying. I'm looking at a secondhand 3 phase electric motor for a project at the moment 🤔
From the 24vdc input terminal, what is the value of the 1/2 W resistor?. Looks like green, brown, gold, with gold tolerance. Is it a resistor or an inductor? I looked at the outside case and saw the AC symbol and powered it up with 120VAC and blew the resistor? It is burned but still reads 544K ohms. Then I saw the stamped input 24VDC on the other side after I fried it. I guess the AC symbol is generic on all input types, just have to read what is marked on the case, duh, lesson learned. Also looks like a memory cap type battery for the display, or is it a battery? The display was weak so I was hoping that the input voltage would recharge the battery/cap.
I always wondered if that backup battery actually charges... Does someone know?
+RandomHacks They usually do,
some have supercaps and can keep the time (without the display being on) for quite a while.
Box is a standard part, designed for any standard 2 module width DIN box. Made to pack flat in storage so the transport of the empty boxes is cheap from the printer, and to fill you simply do a minimum of operations to make up an empty box. Often you find the entire manual printed on the inside of the box, especially for things like DIN mount contactors. I prefer the EU made contactors though over the Chinese ones, they use brass as contact materials while the Chinese ones are steel.
Relay is not doubles contacts, you have 2 pins per contact to handle current it switches. Sad to say that relay is being overrated, they are really 16A resistive ( 1000 full electrical load operations) or 5A inductive ( 0.7PF for same life). You are better off using an external contactor or SSR to do the power switching if you need the full power rating.
Con u pl. show me the connection (how it should connect to a light bulb)
can you do a video on cheap lambda sensors, I recently bought one and the price difference is massive between oem & the Chinese one I bought (£13 including p&p),
The thing is the car has never run better?????
Clive, are there any controllers with a semi-randomised setting? The kind you could use for a light when you're out of the house for a long period. The normal switches will be predictable.
+Allison Pell Something like this www.amazon.com/GE-50462-7-Day-Random-Vacation/dp/B0002U3Y0Q
looks to be a simple plug in solution,
+Allison Pell The timeguard tg77, which is a common digital plug in, has random, its been available for years, so easy to find
+Sparky Projects That's just a 7-day timer with a preset sequence.
if they need to add solder to a track, is because you have the wrong PCB thickness. That doesn't make it robust, it makes it unpredictable. For example, you have no clue what is going to happen if you have 5k volts
Adding solder to a track gives it greater resilience to short circuit current and also allows a slightly higher current on a thin track.
Clive can i hire you to help with my daughters physics homework?...would make a good video :0
I have the same one with a date of 2017-02 and the LCD is not working anymore. Can the battery be replaced or is this a disposable timer?
I think you need to revisit the fiber optic jobby.
+Scott Campbell I really should make something as despicable as that again.
Who are the people actually designing these tiny circuits Clive?
They're going about things in some very unusual and different ways.
Those boards have nice China Export markings on them. Yet the cardboard box has a Conformité Européenne marking...
how many ebay page print outs do you have?