The interesting thing is that even if Mofi was dishonest - were they? - they were actually able to deliver a better sounding product than an analog copy of the master would have allowed. A big part of the problem are the audiophiles' misguided cultist beliefs about analog and digital.
@@NateEll I think it will have a lot to do with sound quality. Just think about expert witnesses trying to testify for analog's superiority. This is going to be a lot of fun, keep pop corn ready.
@@nyquist5190 i agree with Nathan. People who know the truth are still holding on their copies so sound quality isnt the problem, it's Mofi allowing people to run with the all analog narrative because putting the word digital on any of those one step releases wouldn't be worth the 125 to people
Every MOFI record sells for more $$$ used than MOFI sold it for. Santana Abraxas MOFI $100.00 Used $2000.00 Bill Evans $100.00 Used $600.00 DF Nightfly $100.00 Used $600.00 I don't have an issue with MOFI, its the flippers I have issues with.
For sure and they should win that part. The only chance is punitive if the Plaintiffs can convince a regular mainstream Jury that they suffered "emotional damage" which im sure will be very amusing... Ill bet they are after a settlement..
I'm 49 and was a kid in the 80's, both my dad and I were into music, LP's were dead then, CD's killed LP and Cassette. Vinyl became popular simply for nostalgia, it's never matched Digital since the 90's. I'm glad I didn't waste any money on Turntables and Vinyl.
I'm so glad I've never spent money on these products and have always preferred to search out more realistically priced LPs. Some people have more dollars than sense and MoFi arguably took advantage of that. There are many people that have enough money to not be financially burdened by paying through the teeth for their toys, but still that leaves issues for MoFi (and others) to contend with concerning pride, truth and trust. They have done no favours to the whole 'vinyl industry' and that might be a good thing for people like me who just want to listen to great sounding records without all the financially prohibitive 'audiophile' baggage that boosts parts of the industry to obscene levels of cost, at the same time as musicians receive less and less.
Yes, my point exactly in my previous vids. Vinyl should be for fun and nostalgia. It's not the Holy Grail. But some people wished to make it so. And the "raping" of the artist financially... it's despicable...
Thanks for the info. A great overview of this suit. Since this fiasco started, I figured it would not be long before someone would get the lawyers involved. Setting the analog versus digital debate aside. I feel Mo-Fi is now reaping what it sowed. They first conned many in the community to believe that all analog is the only thing that offers the ultimate listening experience, over charged its patrons for it, then failed to deliver. You do not make a fool out of your costumer and expect to get out of it by simply saying oops we goofed, but hey ours pressing are still something special, give us $125.00!
Regardless of how beautiful the many albums I've bought from MoFi, regardless of how they sound on my turntable, IF I've been deceived thusly, then I've been grossly over charged for something that was sold to me as superior analog. Therefore if such fraud was intentional, then the company should answer for this.
i agree as well. But I'm curious about the actual difference in production costs between this claimed "all analog" recording chain as opposed to analog/digital. Should not the cost of a product such as a new vinyl pressing be mostly dependent upon the cost to manufacture it? The claimed sonic superiority of all analog is subjective, whereas the production cost is empirical.
I would love to be on that jury! NOT GUILTY! This is the most absurd suit I have heard in years. If it goes to court, and I seriously doubt it will, any competent jury will toss it.
MoFi lied by withholding information and with the very high prices of these records I totally understand the lawsuit. This could spell the end for MoFi though.
not likely the end of MOFI. The case has no merit other than embarrassment due to logical fallacy on the part of the plaintiff. The prices are based on the labor, equipment, and costs, and techniques used to produce the albums... the process to continue to produce high quality albums will not change.... so, don't expect the costs to change. If fact, they may even RISE since the "limited" nature of the releases is based on a consumer interest forecast model. If they forecast less people will buy the product, then, the total volume of releases will drop. In that case, the law of supply demand kicks in - and fewer releases will result in higher prices. In this case, though, MOFI may likely eat the higher costs for awhile before passing the costs back to the limited release buyer. Come back in a year and tell me if i was wrong.
What is sad is that this could put them out of business! They provide really good records and in some cases mind blowing records. I think they have been punished enough at this point . People, unless you want to see them die on the vine, rethink partaking in this suit.
No dough in the bowl for disgruntled plaintiffs. What attorney is going to go after a company with this level of revenue? ""Davis also did not appreciate the interview. Music Direct’s stereo equipment business brings in revenue of more than $40 million a year, and MoFi earned about $9 million last year.""
Good find Mikey! Leads me to wonder why the audiophiles who initiated the suit didn't perceive this audible difference they feel they were cheated out of? Emperors suit. HA AHA!!
Since proving actual damage is key to a punitive award, a clever attorney for MoFi could set up a blind listening test in the courtroom, asking the complainants to identify (by ear) the damaging digital recordings vs. the raw master tapes with Mofi's mastering chain applied.
The point is the complainants were emotionally damaged by listening to bog standard recordings falsely advertised as being superior. On that basis, no listening test is required.
@@connorduke4619 totally why I repeated that part. How does one prove emotional damage from something that can't be heard and is only subjective ? I think punitive damage would be very hard to prove. The other counts have a better shot I'd imagine.
"Emotional and tactile response to vinyl" cannot be reduced to nostalgia. Just as physical response cannot be reduced to nostalgia in case of physical books or any other physical thing. This is now a thing that's researched enough to show that not only emotionally and experientially, but also neurologically, we respond different to material things and their immaterial counterparts. So when you reduce it to nostalgia, you're misrepresenting it.
add to this... at which point did they stop "handling and playing" their vinyl? If they want to listen to that album today, post "process revelation", won't they still need to go through the same process?
I remember when CD first came out. Everyone wanted DDD discs. And analogue AAA w is preferred. Just like I have no problem with a CD made with analogue technology, I have no problem with Vinyl made with digital technology. But it must be clearly stated on the disc.
"People are not forced to buy these records." It has nothing to do with that. There's a few exceptions, but no one is forced to buy anything, not just records. The issue is they misrepresented the product in order to save money and increase sales. It doesn't matter what your personal thoughts are on the matter. The customers didn't get what they paid for.
@@jackbrugts330 I thought people were told they were getting all analog recordings but found out the records were really converted to digital first. Did I miss something? If that's not the case, they why is everyone getting so upset?
@@AT-wl9yq pretty sure MoFi let people believe they were all Analog without making the process clear. The suit will be about whether that was conspiracy for unlawful enrichment or oversight or it does not legally matter. Intent will come Into question.
This should be interesting. Cases like this can drag on for years. I have to chuckle a little because I would expect that in order for a customer to get their money back they would no doubt be required to send the records back to MoFi. Then what? They get their money, but they no longer have the special vinyl. Is there an alternate company that produces the product in the way they want it (all analog production)? Will they be able to replace the product at all? Will they try and demand that MoFi drop their prices because of using digital sources and simply buy the product again at a lower price pocketing the difference? No customer can make that demand and get their demands met as if it's owed to them...
They were killing each other for a copy and now suing them:( they sound good, I understand the marketing lies but common suing the guys? What is the damage? Feeling stupid because they never understand the difference ?
I agree. They are most likely speculators that bought records to not open them nor use them. Instead to try to make money from them. Now thier value went down like the stock market. If you dont like the company, don't buy from them, but to me this is a little much.
This has gotten ridiculous and I, although a Mofi owner of music, along with tapes, CDs /hybrid CDs and all of the audio formats, won’t be participating in this Lawsuit foolishness. Yes MoFi was deceptive, but come on. I love vinyl along with all of the formats. These are people that went on the vinyl only format/snobbery and have gotten burned and have to eat crow. Yes Mofi was deceptive and I think it was wrong, but this is why companies and people don’t issue apologies in our country anymore, due to lawsuits and this one which if won will result in you getting 10 dollars at best because the attorneys will eat up the rest. There are titles that sound better on vinyl, titles that sound better on cd, titles that sound better streamed and 15ips Reel to Reel that sound better than it all. Being an audiophile should be about the music first and I own and enjoy all of the formats. This lawsuit if it goes forth will expose part of the industry for what it is and not what we want it to be.
I still listen to LPs for nostalgic reasons. Not necessarily for the quality of the recording. I just enjoy the music coming through my 40+ year old horns. I like old cars too. Not sure I’d pay $125 for an album though. Maybe if it was a great pressing or rare from another time. I like digital too but where did the clicks and pops go?🤣
And the Big Winners are the lawyers who get the big bucks in class action suits. Interesting, as Mikey says, how this will play out especially the defense arguments. Will the jury be audiophiles or adults who are tone deaf? What would be your strategy picking a jury?
It will be a study in law and Human perception. Having ones fantasy shattered as it were. Will children sue thier parents for not telling them Santa Claus is not real ? I swear my little Brother suffered grave emotional damage when he found out. In fact it gave him resentment against my father for the lie, most of his life. Hmmmmmm.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I see where you're coming from, but what if parents consciously deceived their children about something and thereby caused them harm, might that be different? As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the emotional argument is neither here nor there. Did Mofi or did Mofi not consciously misrepresent their products to take advantage of (some might say gullible) people's willingness to pay a premium for what they thought they were getting? If proven they did, then the class action could well succeed.
The case should be simple - MoFi stated that they manufactured the vinyl from master tapes and it turns out they were not, hence the mis-representation. No emotional nonsense, just say they charged higher prices based on a lie.
Master Tape was by all means the original source... so the vinyl was produced from Master Tape... just not DIRECTLY... and I dont think they ever published that it was on any of the record jackets or on their marketing... Just people talking ... that may be enough ... we will find out...
Caveat Emptor. This lawsuit will go nowhere. Basically, what the suit is about is "Emotional Damages". Think about that for a minute. Emotional Damages from buying a high-priced LP. MOFI's Lawyers are going to tear through this in court on the first day/opening hearing.
Lol. You think a suit needs legs to throttle the piss out of the plaintiff?. You don't understand law very well..and are you hard of hearing ? Stop YELLING ! Faaaaa.
Perhaps you are pulling my leg, but a VH album has very little dynamics whereas a Haydn string quartet recording has vastly more. I know, I have and listen to both.
BooHoo! Ninny Nanny BooBoo! There Feelings were Butt Hurt! Sue-Happy appears to be the American Way! It's just a way to keep Lawyer's in the "Mix" Racketeering/Profiteering! Most Lawyers I grew up around don't Care unless it's lining their pockets! Sorry for the Cynicism! Just my personal experiences! Mikey, you are on point with this Presentation!
Ay, que triste. Pain and Suffering😱 . They have to teach each jury member to clean and handle records, setup cartridges and antiskating, at the minimum. Then listen to CDs, Streaming plus Reel to Reel. By the end MOFI vinyl. All digital chain!
I can't wait for the explanation of the one step, two step and three step process. I hope they use New Kids on the Block's hit song "Step by Step" as the example recording.
A hurt feelings class action, interesting. The fact that they got an excellent sounding product made according to a non classified procedure seems to not matter. My common sense says that this is going to be hard. They just wanted to believe. It also shows that the analog vinyl religion, is just that. A religion. Not taken to be serious accept as an affliction.
BIG PROBLEM HERE...for the plaintiff. Except for these audiophile forums almost everyone on the street believes digital (cds) sound better than analog lps. For the jury, the people will all be biased that digital is superior. Where are they gonna find the 1 person in a hundred that thinks analog is superior? It will not be an impartial jury unless they do. If the jury thinks digital sound is superior, then so what?...is what they will think about what Mofi did. Unable to find unbiased jurors locally, they might have to bring people in from another state. What state do the most people have really bad CD players? Or they might have to move the whole trial to another state. You can't have biased jurors like that. I'd ask for it to be moved to California. People really do things different out there. Maybe say...... San Francisco!
LOL> It does not matter whats superior. If people were looking for all Analog because it sucked more, the case would still stand. Its about what they thought they were getting and the fact that they paid a premium for them. Whats going to be hard is that the recordings did not get any worse with this information. They stayed as good or bad as they ever were. there was no complaint or return by the people back to the store they bought them from was there ? so this is a weak case that will be hard to prove that damages actually occurred unless its emotional damage and thats GAF...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I agree. Emotional harm over records being digital might not sail, but someone will try. "Your honor, when I used to look out upon my vast sea of records, the one thing that I could tell myself that always without exception brought a warm glow was the reassuring fact, that there was not one, even one item of digital seaweed. Now things just are not the same anymore. Now when I look down upon my ocean of records, the once clear blue sea of salt water is muddied with the presence of Digital. Digital vinyl! My very large bedroom, which is not really a large bedroom anymore, or even a bedroom really, since the floor of it is used for the storage of hundreds of boxes of records. Even 80% of my beds mattress area is occupied by the permanent residence of boxes upon boxes of records. I keep to the 20% of the mattress that is reserved for myself. Of course II can't roll over now. The springs have a much more frequent squeak, sleeping with my records, but that and the possibility of everything with all that weight, crashing right through the floor, shows what a dedicated collector of vinyl I am. ANALOG VINYL!.... Or SO I THOUGHT!" "It was a warm cloudy day in July with the wind relatively calm and the humidity on the high side when Mobile Fidelity revealed in an interview with Mike Esposito that their records were sourced from Digital DSD Copies! I was stunned along with many of my analog brethren in the audiophile analog community. Ever since that day I have had troubled sleep and dreams. Digital nightmares if you will. Scary record covers like The Royal Scam, Shakedown Street and even Koo Koo by Debbie Harry have permeated and punctured my once restful sleep. My bedrrom, including my bed have become a kind of hell. So much so that I have been forced to do the unthinkable. The totally utterly unthinkable....I put all my records in the basement."
Any company or person who sells expensive records shoutd get a lawsuit just for that (lol, just kidding of course). Well even if you count inflation, some records are a lot more expensive than they were in the 80's. I've been able to have a lot of records because I bougth a lot of records before prices went up, and because I've been looking for discounts and got a lot of "not mint" records. All I'm saying is I think prices is where the debate should be going.
"...handling and playing vinyl records...." ummmm... what, did the plaintiff buy - SACDs - and no longer playing Vinyl? This portion of the suit has no standing. The plaintiff was "handling and playing" these vinyl records before awareness of production techniques... and.. ummm... if they want to play those same vinyl albums post awareness... well... they will still need to "handle and play" the vinly record on their equipment. "defendant offered products for sale as 'triple analog' ..." ummmm.... well, the case is lost already on the grounds the plaintiffs cannot prove their case.... I have slightly over 100 MOFI titles... nowhere in the marketing does it show triple analog... sorry. this suit sounds frivolous. I hope, when they lose the case, they will have legal fees to cover for this frivolous suit... they simply assumed due to a logical error (non sequitur), and found out they assumed wrong. Period.
And soon threre will be a Hollywood movie about the lawsuit will Julia Roberts and Johnny Depp (the last one has some recent experience in the lawsuits as we know) 🙂... At the end there will be organized a big listening AB comparison (Mikey will provide speakers and cables for it) for the Jury with recordings made from analog and from digital and they will be pointing which is which (as well as the electrodes connected to some electronic stuff will be measuring their "emotional response") and Mofi will win because only 50% of peaople will point correctly. The End. Oscars for the best actors and best scenario and best soundtrack.
Very interesting and yes MOFI is ripping people off . It's like buying a Ferrari 250 GTO with a new engine , sure it's going to be faster but it will be far less valuable to the collector . A Pateck Philippe that had its movement exchanged for a digital movement so it can be more accurate ? Not a good idea . These people bought LPs that were advertised as analogue from start to finish because that's what they dig . Now we have haters disrespecting their hobby and calling them dumb asses . This audio ! We are a fraternity of dumb asses ! So shame on MOFI not for the sound , sound is subjective but for lying.
Mo-Fi used the original master tapes to create a digital copy. so the end result was sourced from original master tape, no mis-representation there. The entire process mixing, eq etc., of cutting the lacquer was done in the analog domain. Did they claim they were actually running the master tape as the were cutting the lacquer? not that I can find. Was it just assumed by the so called audiophiles? What does ass u me spell? Did Mo-Fi actually say there was no digital step anywhere, not that I've found. The limited number of pressings is because of using the father plate instead of a stamper made from a mother, (one step records). Not because they didn't want to run the tape again. Seems people made a lot of assumptions. Did Mo-Fi do anything to dispell these assumptions, no, but are they legally required to if they never actually made the claims and people just assumed? Not a very up front way of doing things but illegal. doesn't appear so. Fact is by the time you get to the record, nobody on planet earth could tell if they were running the tape or a digital copy.
Under this circumstances, the plaintiffs have the right to claim misrepresentation on Mofi because the master tape was transferred to digital master domain which conflicting Mofi claimed of triple analogue.
Misleading info yes, but the people actually got a product that was better than normal and better than what most analog audiophiles consider digital. So a very grey zone case. So basically being sued for not revealing their secret sauce, which actually is very normal. Looking past the whole misleading/lack of info part. I personally think that, this is one of those cases where it's almost impossible to tell the truth without it hurting you as a company, simply because there are too many factors to weigh in with every particular album. Yes MOFI should have released more precise info somehow which was different from every album, but again most industries are to some degree doing this, because the purchaser does not have enough data to fully process the truth. If we look at other parts of HiFi, the truth that companies sell their improvement story with is also to some degree BS, but it is so complex that no one really can call them out. To me what is fair is that their albums go down to 1/3 of the price and you get all the specific info per album, so each album can be treated separately.
I think there could be a non measurable Human response. Non measurable sonic response would need to be within a dimension we have not tapped into yet. And here we go with Analog vs Digital again.... Seems like this is everyone's obsession... We can only hear in Analog. Period. Digital is a dataset that when processed reproduces an Analog Sine wave. The only discussion we have is the resulting Analog sine wave. What if it comes from the cosmos and the Universe is the source ? Planets do have a sound and so does space.. Does that come from absence of matter ? from God ? You want a discussion, lets cook with fire.. ;-)
This whole audiophile angst over MoFi is getting so old. Exactly what do any of the AAA crowd know about how many of the products that they buy are made? All the parts that go into your car; nothing? All of how your food products are handled and what goes into them; nothing? Do you worry about the clothes or the shoes you buy are being made in some sweat-shop by some 10 year old girl paid pennies a day??? Without the FDA catching some of it we all could become very sick at any moment. And now because you did not know or couldn't hear that MoFi used a DSD copy of a master tape to make some of their reissues you have your undies all wadded up!!!!! You should have heard it years and years ago if you have some "golden ears". I play viny and digital everyday, but I will never buy an LP that is over $100 or $150, no matter what. It is a flawed format that has too many hands in the soup from using different tape decks than the original master to tape; the magnetic tape to analog circuitry of the R2R and then sends it to the electronics of the lathe and then onto the cutter head to make the master lacquer. Did someone add EQ to that because they liked it better? That is at least two steps and I would say it is actually at least 2 from tape to the lathe. Then plating the mother and then the fathers to press the LPs. I think the term "One Step" was a stretch from the get go. Now from the conversations from Wally Tools, many of the styli are not properly, geometrically bonded to the cantilever, and then achieving the exact 92 degree SRA is nearly impossible from LP to LP. If you use a uni-pivot tonearm you are only right in two places on the played arc of the LP. Did you spend $400 and send your cart to Wally Tools for them to measure and see if your cantilever and stylus are properly mounted? Many who play and enjoy vinyl did not spend $400 on their cartridges. Now we find out about the lack of a properly placed center hole in our LPs that has then playing improperly, and the tracking is more of an ellipse then a perfect spiral. We could spend $6000 and find out and adjust for it before we play our records, but all too many, including me, did not spend that on our turntables. I have not seen a frequency response graph of any phono cartridge since the Stereo Review days. We all know that some of the "sparkle" of MC carts is from a tipped up high end response. If we saw this in an amp or cd player many would say it is broken or poorly designed at best. This is all so tiring. My biggest complaint from the music business is the over-use of compression and peak limiting that still rules the day in too many mastering houses. I believe that MoFi is doing the best it can in making their reissues sound the best they can and utilizing their time in order to make as many copies of a re-master issue that makes financial sense and make more of them available at a better price for more of us to enjoy. This reissue business is not cheap to do anymore.
@@OCDHIFiGuy At least to me, the US is falling apart at the seams and too many are worried to the nth degree about stuff that just doesn't matter, especially to our poor children and grandchildren. MoFi should have been more upfront, but it does not keep me up at night as I never bought the One-Step theme anyway as I have done much recording over the last 20-+ years, toured the Welcome To 1979 recording studio in Nashville at Chris Mara's invitation and then took a tour of the United Record Pressings Plant with their lacquer cutting engineer, Cameron. Once you have seen LPs made you see there is nothing easy about this entire process regardless of the masters. I just pulled out my reissue of Simon and Garfunkels' Bridge Over Troubled Water, which is not MoFi, and it does not sound that great which leads me to believe that the master tape has some storage issues. It and the Parley, Sage....reissues are from 2014. I also have John Lennon's Imagine reissue from Apple and it is just OK, and I would not say it is one of my better LPs, but I am glad I have it. I think I paid about $30 for each of them, which is reasonable.
@@jtavegia5845 I agree with you. Do the records sound good or what ? They loved the records before the news at $200 now they don't love them anymore ? No. It's because they feel misled and stupid. Because people are making fun of them. So they want blood. Caveat Emptor I say.
if this suit goes anywhere, it will put Mofi out of business. A company which has done nothing but deliver great sounding recordings to the music community. What an unfortunate loss that would be. Thankfully, it sounds like the complaint is a complete joke.
The interesting thing is that even if Mofi was dishonest - were they? - they were actually able to deliver a better sounding product than an analog copy of the master would have allowed. A big part of the problem are the audiophiles' misguided cultist beliefs about analog and digital.
I totally Agree...
This lawsuit has nothing to do with sound quality
@@NateEll I think it will have a lot to do with sound quality. Just think about expert witnesses trying to testify for analog's superiority. This is going to be a lot of fun, keep pop corn ready.
@@nyquist5190 i agree with Nathan. People who know the truth are still holding on their copies so sound quality isnt the problem, it's Mofi allowing people to run with the all analog narrative because putting the word digital on any of those one step releases wouldn't be worth the 125 to people
@@patsvinylcorner This is true but is it enough for a class action lawsuit to succeed? I do not think so.
Every MOFI record sells for more $$$ used than MOFI sold it for.
Santana Abraxas MOFI $100.00 Used $2000.00
Bill Evans $100.00 Used $600.00
DF Nightfly $100.00 Used $600.00
I don't have an issue with MOFI, its the flippers I have issues with.
Totally. Greedy ass chunks always have to ruin the party....
They’ll defend it on a technicality that none of their records actually state 'all analogue' anywhere on the packaging.
For sure and they should win that part. The only chance is punitive if the Plaintiffs can convince a regular mainstream Jury that they suffered "emotional damage" which im sure will be very amusing... Ill bet they are after a settlement..
I'm 49 and was a kid in the 80's, both my dad and I were into music, LP's were dead then, CD's killed LP and Cassette. Vinyl became popular simply for nostalgia, it's never matched Digital since the 90's.
I'm glad I didn't waste any money on Turntables and Vinyl.
I very well could have fallen into it. After years of asking industry guys about the format, my ascertation was to avoid it all together.
Gee, and to think that if this never came out, all the LP guys would still be loving their records. Ridiculous.
Totally true Mikey....
The jury is going to have fun listening to a bunch of records.
The mofi crap has nothing to do with sound. It’s fraud and misrepresentation
Wonder if ??
I'm so glad I've never spent money on these products and have always preferred to search out more realistically priced LPs. Some people have more dollars than sense and MoFi arguably took advantage of that. There are many people that have enough money to not be financially burdened by paying through the teeth for their toys, but still that leaves issues for MoFi (and others) to contend with concerning pride, truth and trust. They have done no favours to the whole 'vinyl industry' and that might be a good thing for people like me who just want to listen to great sounding records without all the financially prohibitive 'audiophile' baggage that boosts parts of the industry to obscene levels of cost, at the same time as musicians receive less and less.
Yes, my point exactly in my previous vids. Vinyl should be for fun and nostalgia. It's not the Holy Grail. But some people wished to make it so. And the "raping" of the artist financially... it's despicable...
Thanks for the info. A great overview of this suit. Since this fiasco started, I figured it would not be long before someone would get the lawyers involved. Setting the analog versus digital debate aside. I feel Mo-Fi is now reaping what it sowed. They first conned many in the community to believe that all analog is the only thing that offers the ultimate listening experience, over charged its patrons for it, then failed to deliver. You do not make a fool out of your costumer and expect to get out of it by simply saying oops we goofed, but hey ours pressing are still something special, give us $125.00!
Good point. It was a risk that hopefully they calculated.
Regardless of how beautiful the many albums I've bought from MoFi, regardless of how they sound on my turntable, IF I've been deceived thusly, then I've been grossly over charged for something that was sold to me as superior analog. Therefore if such fraud was intentional, then the company should answer for this.
Agreed
i agree as well. But I'm curious about the actual difference in production costs between this claimed "all analog" recording chain as opposed to analog/digital. Should not the cost of a product such as a new vinyl pressing be mostly dependent upon the cost to manufacture it? The claimed sonic superiority of all analog is subjective, whereas the production cost is empirical.
I would love to be on that jury! NOT GUILTY! This is the most absurd suit I have heard in years. If it goes to court, and I seriously doubt it will, any competent jury will toss it.
MoFi lied by withholding information and with the very high prices of these records I totally understand the lawsuit. This could spell the end for MoFi though.
not likely the end of MOFI.
The case has no merit other than embarrassment due to logical fallacy on the part of the plaintiff.
The prices are based on the labor, equipment, and costs, and techniques used to produce the albums... the process to continue to produce high quality albums will not change.... so, don't expect the costs to change. If fact, they may even RISE since the "limited" nature of the releases is based on a consumer interest forecast model. If they forecast less people will buy the product, then, the total volume of releases will drop. In that case, the law of supply demand kicks in - and fewer releases will result in higher prices.
In this case, though, MOFI may likely eat the higher costs for awhile before passing the costs back to the limited release buyer.
Come back in a year and tell me if i was wrong.
What is sad is that this could put them out of business! They provide really good records and in some cases mind blowing records. I think they have been punished enough at this point . People, unless you want to see them die on the vine, rethink partaking in this suit.
They could simply close business as a "Eff You" to the market... Digital is probably much more profitable..
@@OCDHIFiGuy I agree close up shop if you have to lie
I'm curious how Andrew Jones feels about this situation given his recent launch of the MoFi SourcePoint 10 speakers?
No dough in the bowl for disgruntled plaintiffs. What attorney is going to go after a company with this level of revenue? ""Davis also did not appreciate the interview. Music Direct’s stereo equipment business brings in revenue of more than $40 million a year, and MoFi earned about $9 million last year.""
@Rik ster profeshonal
@Rik ster yeah u did Spanky... lol. His point is they don't have the money for a respectful class action lawyer to sink his teeth into. (Me finks)
Good find Mikey! Leads me to wonder why the audiophiles who initiated the suit didn't perceive this audible difference they feel they were cheated out of? Emperors suit. HA AHA!!
They needed to call the Waaaambulance not the Law Firm...
Since proving actual damage is key to a punitive award, a clever attorney for MoFi could set up a blind listening test in the courtroom, asking the complainants to identify (by ear) the damaging digital recordings vs. the raw master tapes with Mofi's mastering chain applied.
The point is the complainants were emotionally damaged by listening to bog standard recordings falsely advertised as being superior. On that basis, no listening test is required.
@@connorduke4619 these are a lot of subjectieve claims.
@@connorduke4619 totally why I repeated that part. How does one prove emotional damage from something that can't be heard and is only subjective ? I think punitive damage would be very hard to prove. The other counts have a better shot I'd imagine.
Very interesting proposition Chas... wouldn't that be something ?
No listening test is required. Mofi led consumers to believe that they were buying all analog and charged such consumers premium price.
"Emotional and tactile response to vinyl" cannot be reduced to nostalgia. Just as physical response cannot be reduced to nostalgia in case of physical books or any other physical thing. This is now a thing that's researched enough to show that not only emotionally and experientially, but also neurologically, we respond different to material things and their immaterial counterparts. So when you reduce it to nostalgia, you're misrepresenting it.
I'm nostalgic about the tactile feel of a nubile breast from my younger years... it's nothing more than a memory... nostalgia...
add to this... at which point did they stop "handling and playing" their vinyl? If they want to listen to that album today, post "process revelation", won't they still need to go through the same process?
I remember when CD first came out. Everyone wanted DDD discs. And analogue AAA w is preferred. Just like I have no problem with a CD made with analogue technology, I have no problem with Vinyl made with digital technology. But it must be clearly stated on the disc.
Really like your take on current state of affairs. People are not forced to buy these records. The sound quality of these discs are good!
"People are not forced to buy these records."
It has nothing to do with that. There's a few exceptions, but no one is forced to buy anything, not just records. The issue is they misrepresented the product in order to save money and increase sales. It doesn't matter what your personal thoughts are on the matter. The customers didn't get what they paid for.
@@AT-wl9yq they got exacltly what they payed for.
They Just wanted to believe it was more.
@@jackbrugts330 I thought people were told they were getting all analog recordings but found out the records were really converted to digital first. Did I miss something? If that's not the case, they why is everyone getting so upset?
@@AT-wl9yq pretty sure MoFi let people believe they were all Analog without making the process clear. The suit will be about whether that was conspiracy for unlawful enrichment or oversight or it does not legally matter. Intent will come Into question.
I think the judge should apply the wisdom of Solomon and order Mofi to buy all the complainants an upmarket R2R Ladder Dac! :D
Lol. Justice served !
I just sold my DSP and went DIY analog active for XO. :D Will look into this thing called LP. Tactile feel, you say!
LOL< totally... Use the spanky hand.... lol
I love how Mofi's wikipedia has an entire paragraph about Michael Esposito. I bet Michael Fremer is jelous :^)
This should be interesting. Cases like this can drag on for years. I have to chuckle a little because I would expect that in order for a customer to get their money back they would no doubt be required to send the records back to MoFi. Then what? They get their money, but they no longer have the special vinyl. Is there an alternate company that produces the product in the way they want it (all analog production)? Will they be able to replace the product at all? Will they try and demand that MoFi drop their prices because of using digital sources and simply buy the product again at a lower price pocketing the difference? No customer can make that demand and get their demands met as if it's owed to them...
I cant see this case standing up.. My guess is they are seeking a settlement.
I bet the plaintiffs are just two Scalpers that buy tons of copies for resell and now they have fear that the prices will down, LOL! ridiculous!
Totally my guess as well. Speculators/ record scalpers.
They were killing each other for a copy and now suing them:( they sound good, I understand the marketing lies but common suing the guys? What is the damage? Feeling stupid because they never understand the difference ?
Exactly..their believe is shattered
I agree. They are most likely speculators that bought records to not open them nor use them. Instead to try to make money from them. Now thier value went down like the stock market. If you dont like the company, don't buy from them, but to me this is a little much.
This has gotten ridiculous and I, although a Mofi owner of music, along with tapes, CDs /hybrid CDs and all of the audio formats, won’t be participating in this Lawsuit foolishness. Yes MoFi was deceptive, but come on. I love vinyl along with all of the formats. These are people that went on the vinyl only format/snobbery and have gotten burned and have to eat crow.
Yes Mofi was deceptive and I think it was wrong, but this is why companies and people don’t issue apologies in our country anymore, due to lawsuits and this one which if won will result in you getting 10 dollars at best because the attorneys will eat up the rest.
There are titles that sound better on vinyl, titles that sound better on cd, titles that sound better streamed and 15ips Reel to Reel that sound better than it all. Being an audiophile should be about the music first and I own and enjoy all of the formats. This lawsuit if it goes forth will expose part of the industry for what it is and not what we want it to be.
I'd love to be on this jury!
Right ? The ONLY time ....
I suspect there's going to be at least a few Music Direct "Gift Certificates" handed out to settle the matter. :)
Maybe a few cookies 🍪
I still listen to LPs for nostalgic reasons. Not necessarily for the quality of the recording. I just enjoy the music coming through my 40+ year old horns. I like old cars too. Not sure I’d pay $125 for an album though. Maybe if it was a great pressing or rare from another time. I like digital too but where did the clicks and pops go?🤣
And the Big Winners are the lawyers who get the big bucks in class action suits. Interesting, as Mikey says, how this will play out especially the defense arguments. Will the jury be audiophiles or adults who are tone deaf? What would be your strategy picking a jury?
@Rik ster lol. Have we spoken ? Thats some funny shit...
Great résumé of the class action. I await with interest the proceedings, even though I myself don't have any interest in vinyl.
It will be a study in law and Human perception. Having ones fantasy shattered as it were. Will children sue thier parents for not telling them Santa Claus is not real ? I swear my little Brother suffered grave emotional damage when he found out. In fact it gave him resentment against my father for the lie, most of his life. Hmmmmmm.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I see where you're coming from, but what if parents consciously deceived their children about something and thereby caused them harm, might that be different?
As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the emotional argument is neither here nor there. Did Mofi or did Mofi not consciously misrepresent their products to take advantage of (some might say gullible) people's willingness to pay a premium for what they thought they were getting? If proven they did, then the class action could well succeed.
They all realize how much money they waisted on that crap and now they want it back. How well did the Thriller release sell.
The case should be simple - MoFi stated that they manufactured the vinyl from master tapes and it turns out they were not, hence the mis-representation. No emotional nonsense, just say they charged higher prices based on a lie.
Master Tape was by all means the original source... so the vinyl was produced from Master Tape... just not DIRECTLY... and I dont think they ever published that it was on any of the record jackets or on their marketing... Just people talking ... that may be enough ... we will find out...
Caveat Emptor. This lawsuit will go nowhere. Basically, what the suit is about is "Emotional Damages". Think about that for a minute. Emotional Damages from buying a high-priced LP. MOFI's Lawyers are going to tear through this in court on the first day/opening hearing.
Totally agree, Collins .....
OLD NEWS- THE LAWSUIT DOESN’T HAVE LEGS TO STAND ON
Lol. You think a suit needs legs to throttle the piss out of the plaintiff?. You don't understand law very well..and are you hard of hearing ? Stop YELLING ! Faaaaa.
I thought that the dynamic range on a record was compressed to fit on the groove of the record .
In classical music this was a necessity.
Perhaps you are pulling my leg, but a VH album has very little dynamics whereas a Haydn string quartet recording has vastly more. I know, I have and listen to both.
@Rik ster the old "proprietary" gear, huh ? Evidently a DSD A to D... DOOP !!
@Rik ster It is Gills Rick.
BooHoo! Ninny Nanny BooBoo! There Feelings were Butt Hurt! Sue-Happy appears to be the American Way! It's just a way to keep Lawyer's in the
"Mix" Racketeering/Profiteering! Most Lawyers I grew up around don't Care unless it's lining their pockets! Sorry for the Cynicism! Just my personal experiences! Mikey, you are on point with this Presentation!
I can relate J.M.
Ay, que triste. Pain and Suffering😱 . They have to teach each jury member to clean and handle records, setup cartridges and antiskating, at the minimum. Then listen to CDs, Streaming plus Reel to Reel. By the end MOFI vinyl. All digital chain!
I can't wait for the explanation of the one step, two step and three step process. I hope they use New Kids on the Block's hit song "Step by Step" as the example recording.
@@troykir lol. Yanni or Yoko Ono... the Partridge Family !
Ai yai yai
Thanks for the update
No problem 👍
Maybe they can get Michael Fremer as an expert witness.
Yeah.
He would like that.
Lol. He could insert himself as the expert.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Fremmer did testify regarding a mix in a trial against Michael Jackson.
Your Honor Judge OCD Hi-fi Guy.
🤣
A hurt feelings class action, interesting.
The fact that they got an excellent sounding product made according to a non classified procedure seems to not matter.
My common sense says that this is going to be hard. They just wanted to believe.
It also shows that the analog vinyl religion, is just that. A religion. Not taken to be serious accept as an affliction.
I agree.. it will be interesting.
I can’t believe a lawyer took this ridiculous case.
de minimis non curat lex
Are you kidding? This is exactly the kind of case they love, win or lose its easy money. Wish I spoke Latin.
@@freeradical431 if its on contingency- no win, no cash. Super weak case.
Advertisement for thier firm ?
There once was a young man named Rex
Who had a diminutive organ of sex
When charged with exposure
He said with composure
De minimis non curat lex
@@VinylRundown True but the lawyers get paid to win or lose. Thats one reason you will never get one to sign a fiduciary agreement.
BIG PROBLEM HERE...for the plaintiff. Except for these audiophile forums almost everyone on the street believes digital (cds) sound better than analog lps. For the jury, the people will all be biased that digital is superior. Where are they gonna find the 1 person in a hundred that thinks analog is superior? It will not be an impartial jury unless they do. If the jury thinks digital sound is superior, then so what?...is what they will think about what Mofi did. Unable to find unbiased jurors locally, they might have to bring people in from another state. What state do the most people have really bad CD players? Or they might have to move the whole trial to another state. You can't have biased jurors like that. I'd ask for it to be moved to California. People really do things different out there. Maybe say...... San Francisco!
LOL> It does not matter whats superior. If people were looking for all Analog because it sucked more, the case would still stand. Its about what they thought they were getting and the fact that they paid a premium for them. Whats going to be hard is that the recordings did not get any worse with this information. They stayed as good or bad as they ever were. there was no complaint or return by the people back to the store they bought them from was there ? so this is a weak case that will be hard to prove that damages actually occurred unless its emotional damage and thats GAF...
@@OCDHIFiGuy I agree. Emotional harm over records being digital might not sail, but someone will try.
"Your honor, when I used to look out upon my vast sea of records, the one thing that I could tell myself that always without exception brought a warm glow was the reassuring fact, that there was not one, even one item of digital seaweed. Now things just are not the same anymore. Now when I look down upon my ocean of records, the once clear blue sea of salt water is muddied with the presence of Digital. Digital vinyl! My very large bedroom, which is not really a large bedroom anymore, or even a bedroom really, since the floor of it is used for the storage of hundreds of boxes of records. Even 80% of my beds mattress area is occupied by the permanent residence of boxes upon boxes of records. I keep to the 20% of the mattress that is reserved for myself. Of course II can't roll over now. The springs have a much more frequent squeak, sleeping with my records, but that and the possibility of everything with all that weight, crashing right through the floor, shows what a dedicated collector of vinyl I am. ANALOG VINYL!.... Or SO I THOUGHT!"
"It was a warm cloudy day in July with the wind relatively calm and the humidity on the high side when Mobile Fidelity revealed in an interview with Mike Esposito that their records were sourced from Digital DSD Copies! I was stunned along with many of my analog brethren in the audiophile analog community. Ever since that day I have had troubled sleep and dreams. Digital nightmares if you will. Scary record covers like The Royal Scam, Shakedown Street and even Koo Koo by Debbie Harry have permeated and punctured my once restful sleep. My bedrrom, including my bed have become a kind of hell. So much so that I have been forced to do the unthinkable. The totally utterly unthinkable....I put all my records in the basement."
This is a complete joke. These suckers are going to end up with $5 coupons off the next MoFi release.
LOL< TOTALLY...
Any company or person who sells expensive records shoutd get a lawsuit just for that (lol, just kidding of course). Well even if you count inflation, some records are a lot more expensive than they were in the 80's. I've been able to have a lot of records because I bougth a lot of records before prices went up, and because I've been looking for discounts and got a lot of "not mint" records. All I'm saying is I think prices is where the debate should be going.
LOL< funny first sentence... It sucks but the joke is on the vinyl freaks
"...handling and playing vinyl records...." ummmm... what, did the plaintiff buy - SACDs - and no longer playing Vinyl?
This portion of the suit has no standing. The plaintiff was "handling and playing" these vinyl records before awareness of production techniques... and.. ummm... if they want to play those same vinyl albums post awareness... well... they will still need to "handle and play" the vinly record on their equipment.
"defendant offered products for sale as 'triple analog' ..." ummmm.... well, the case is lost already on the grounds the plaintiffs cannot prove their case.... I have slightly over 100 MOFI titles... nowhere in the marketing does it show triple analog... sorry.
this suit sounds frivolous. I hope, when they lose the case, they will have legal fees to cover for this frivolous suit... they simply assumed due to a logical error (non sequitur), and found out they assumed wrong. Period.
You should be legal counsel
And soon threre will be a Hollywood movie about the lawsuit will Julia Roberts and Johnny Depp (the last one has some recent experience in the lawsuits as we know) 🙂...
At the end there will be organized a big listening AB comparison (Mikey will provide speakers and cables for it) for the Jury with recordings made from analog and from digital and they will be pointing which is which (as well as the electrodes connected to some electronic stuff will be measuring their "emotional response") and Mofi will win because only 50% of peaople will point correctly. The End. Oscars for the best actors and best scenario and best soundtrack.
Pretty much sums it up
This is wild bro
Crazy, right ?
Very interesting and yes MOFI is ripping people off . It's like buying a Ferrari 250 GTO with a new engine , sure it's going to be faster but it will be far less valuable to the collector . A Pateck Philippe that had its movement exchanged for a digital movement so it can be more accurate ? Not a good idea . These people bought LPs that were advertised as analogue from start to finish because that's what they dig . Now we have haters disrespecting their hobby and calling them dumb asses . This audio ! We are a fraternity of dumb asses ! So shame on MOFI not for the sound , sound is subjective but for lying.
Agreed...
GO get MOFI nawty Mofi
Tidal and MQA should be next!
have you ever had to pay to use MQA yourself?
@@DeAudiofilosyLocos Yes your paying for MQA on Tidal.
@@jlo8775 not really, you don't have to use it, the membership costs the same as qobuz
I second MQA
Piltdown Man Records
Mo-Fi used the original master tapes to create a digital copy. so the end result was sourced from original master tape, no mis-representation there. The entire process mixing, eq etc., of cutting the lacquer was done in the analog domain. Did they claim they were actually running the master tape as the were cutting the lacquer? not that I can find. Was it just assumed by the so called audiophiles? What does ass u me spell? Did Mo-Fi actually say there was no digital step anywhere, not that I've found. The limited number of pressings is because of using the father plate instead of a stamper made from a mother, (one step records). Not because they didn't want to run the tape again. Seems people made a lot of assumptions. Did Mo-Fi do anything to dispell these assumptions, no, but are they legally required to if they never actually made the claims and people just assumed? Not a very up front way of doing things but illegal. doesn't appear so. Fact is by the time you get to the record, nobody on planet earth could tell if they were running the tape or a digital copy.
Totally true and with you on this Brad..
Under this circumstances, the plaintiffs have the right to claim misrepresentation on Mofi because the master tape was transferred to digital master domain which conflicting Mofi claimed of triple analogue.
so they are gonna send me 10$ in about ten years. this is about as exciting as when somebody sued redbull
Because of the devaluation of the dollar, in ten years you will be getting a bill for 10 bucks! lol
You mean it DIDN'T give them wings?
You'll get $1.02.. and like it... lol
Misleading info yes, but the people actually got a product that was better than normal and better than what most analog audiophiles consider digital. So a very grey zone case.
So basically being sued for not revealing their secret sauce, which actually is very normal. Looking past the whole misleading/lack of info part.
I personally think that, this is one of those cases where it's almost impossible to tell the truth without it hurting you as a company, simply because there are too many factors to weigh in with every particular album. Yes MOFI should have released more precise info somehow which was different from every album, but again most industries are to some degree doing this, because the purchaser does not have enough data to fully process the truth. If we look at other parts of HiFi, the truth that companies sell their improvement story with is also to some degree BS, but it is so complex that no one really can call them out.
To me what is fair is that their albums go down to 1/3 of the price and you get all the specific info per album, so each album can be treated separately.
Yes, very grey area for sure. Like component specification.
Yeah hi fi is full of BS....selling little ity bity speakers full of cheap parts for thousands of dollars.
what is mofi?
Record label
Mikey do think there could be a non measurable sonic response one gets when listening to analog vs digital.
I think there could be a non measurable Human response. Non measurable sonic response would need to be within a dimension we have not tapped into yet. And here we go with Analog vs Digital again.... Seems like this is everyone's obsession... We can only hear in Analog. Period. Digital is a dataset that when processed reproduces an Analog Sine wave. The only discussion we have is the resulting Analog sine wave. What if it comes from the cosmos and the Universe is the source ? Planets do have a sound and so does space.. Does that come from absence of matter ? from God ? You want a discussion, lets cook with fire.. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy Yes nice response thank you sir
@@OCDHIFiGuy I got the smoke you bring the fire!
Even Nothing is Something........
Space is full of it.
@@freeradical431 Anti Music ? DARK flow ? ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy lol! Off-Grid Audio
Good read…
Common sense, digital to analog recording.. Don't wear out your original analog source.. Hmm..! 😂
One would think...
@@OCDHIFiGuy So simple.. ✌
Such a 💩 it’s all about the end result, what a creepy people that play mofi records
Yes, some people get really upset about process and they dont even think of end result.
Class action.. give me a break
This whole audiophile angst over MoFi is getting so old. Exactly what do any of the AAA crowd know about how many of the products that they buy are made? All the parts that go into your car; nothing? All of how your food products are handled and what goes into them; nothing? Do you worry about the clothes or the shoes you buy are being made in some sweat-shop by some 10 year old girl paid pennies a day??? Without the FDA catching some of it we all could become very sick at any moment. And now because you did not know or couldn't hear that MoFi used a DSD copy of a master tape to make some of their reissues you have your undies all wadded up!!!!! You should have heard it years and years ago if you have some "golden ears". I play viny and digital everyday, but I will never buy an LP that is over $100 or $150, no matter what. It is a flawed format that has too many hands in the soup from using different tape decks than the original master to tape; the magnetic tape to analog circuitry of the R2R and then sends it to the electronics of the lathe and then onto the cutter head to make the master lacquer. Did someone add EQ to that because they liked it better? That is at least two steps and I would say it is actually at least 2 from tape to the lathe. Then plating the mother and then the fathers to press the LPs. I think the term "One Step" was a stretch from the get go. Now from the conversations from Wally Tools, many of the styli are not properly, geometrically bonded to the cantilever, and then achieving the exact 92 degree SRA is nearly impossible from LP to LP. If you use a uni-pivot tonearm you are only right in two places on the played arc of the LP. Did you spend $400 and send your cart to Wally Tools for them to measure and see if your cantilever and stylus are properly mounted? Many who play and enjoy vinyl did not spend $400 on their cartridges. Now we find out about the lack of a properly placed center hole in our LPs that has then playing improperly, and the tracking is more of an ellipse then a perfect spiral. We could spend $6000 and find out and adjust for it before we play our records, but all too many, including me, did not spend that on our turntables. I have not seen a frequency response graph of any phono cartridge since the Stereo Review days. We all know that some of the "sparkle" of MC carts is from a tipped up high end response. If we saw this in an amp or cd player many would say it is broken or poorly designed at best. This is all so tiring. My biggest complaint from the music business is the over-use of compression and peak limiting that still rules the day in too many mastering houses. I believe that MoFi is doing the best it can in making their reissues sound the best they can and utilizing their time in order to make as many copies of a re-master issue that makes financial sense and make more of them available at a better price for more of us to enjoy. This reissue business is not cheap to do anymore.
You seem to understand the bullshit. And I absolutely buy non Chinese shoes and clothing. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy At least to me, the US is falling apart at the seams and too many are worried to the nth degree about stuff that just doesn't matter, especially to our poor children and grandchildren. MoFi should have been more upfront, but it does not keep me up at night as I never bought the One-Step theme anyway as I have done much recording over the last 20-+ years, toured the Welcome To 1979 recording studio in Nashville at Chris Mara's invitation and then took a tour of the United Record Pressings Plant with their lacquer cutting engineer, Cameron. Once you have seen LPs made you see there is nothing easy about this entire process regardless of the masters. I just pulled out my reissue of Simon and Garfunkels' Bridge Over Troubled Water, which is not MoFi, and it does not sound that great which leads me to believe that the master tape has some storage issues. It and the Parley, Sage....reissues are from 2014. I also have John Lennon's Imagine reissue from Apple and it is just OK, and I would not say it is one of my better LPs, but I am glad I have it. I think I paid about $30 for each of them, which is reasonable.
@@jtavegia5845 I agree with you. Do the records sound good or what ? They loved the records before the news at $200 now they don't love them anymore ? No. It's because they feel misled and stupid. Because people are making fun of them. So they want blood. Caveat Emptor I say.
Wow, I'm getting a refund.
These vinyl guys are rabid lmao!
MELT DOWN
Judge wil throw the case..waste of time
Possibly ....
if this suit goes anywhere, it will put Mofi out of business. A company which has done nothing but deliver great sounding recordings to the music community. What an unfortunate loss that would be.
Thankfully, it sounds like the complaint is a complete joke.
They deserve to go under. There's no place for fraud in our little hobby. I say that as a collector of their releases. Good riddance.
I can actually see both sides...
Why are you doing this because your statements on youtube plus intonation are not good. If I were you I'd remove this video immediately
The loudness of your vids.. way too loud imho.
Ya…good luck with that suit lol
Can’t even buy a damn record without a lawyer these days! 🦤
LOL, Right ? Sheesh..