Saxo Grammaticus' accounts about Hel are quite different than the ones from Snorri Sturluson, which is quite interesting given the different generations and geographical realities of both. Almost 200 years apart you can clearly see the growing influence of Christianity in the Norse myths. If we look into older sources like the accounts within the Poetic Edda and other Eddic poems, let me see... for instance Fáfnismál, Grímnismál, Baldrs Draumar, even Sólarljód etc. there is a clear perception that Hel is nothing like it is described in the Prose Edda's Gylfaginning. Basically, the older the literary sources are, the less "hellish" Hel seems, and as the sources progressively come closer to our time and have more Christian influences, the darker and deeper Hel becomes, more similar to the Christian perception of underworld/Inferno.
Oh, sp that's where "nord og ned" comes from! Probably learned it in school, but I'd forgotten about the origin of that one. We use that expression quite a lot in Norway.
I'm from Brazil and I'm a great fan of your videos and each new video makes me more interested in norse mythology and in the culture and language that evolved with the people. I have a question for you: at 4:35 you said that in an "earlier stage of belief" Hel was the default place where the dead went and there was no Valhal (or people just didn't go there after death), so I wanted to know exactly this, if Valhal always (since the beginning of the norse myth) existed as an after-deah scenario but humans were just no allowed to go there or if it just appeared at some point after the Gods and the realms already existed. Thank you for all the great videos. I wish you...all the best!
I had read years ago that the dead should be buried with a good pair of shoes. For the road to Hel is full of perils. Also surrounded in a storm of ice
Nord og ned (North and down) is not an insult in modern Norwegian but rather a way of saying things are going to hell. "Landet går nord og ned" = "The country is going to hell" or if you like: "The country is going down South"
In Icelandic you could say "farðu norður og niður" (go north and down) to insult someone but it's pretty archaic and more likely to cause mirth than offence.
Maybe the "down" in the "down and north" expression for "Go to Hell" wasn't down as in through or into something but over or across as in a change in elevation while crossing land like going from mountainous terrain to one of a more-sea level nature or valley-like environment much like how the oft-misunderstood meaning of the title to Jules Verne's famous nautical-themed novel "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" isn't a measurement of the total depth achieved by the submarine craft featured in the book but is about how far out into the sea it went while under water.
I did actually wonder if Gunnr ever had the form Guðr in complicance with the -nnr > -ðr sound change, now I know. I believe Fiðr (< FInnr) is also attested. Thank you. Also, while everybody has been talking about the TV show Vikings, I wonder if you've ever come across the videogame Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. There are full playthroughs of the game here on UA-cam and based on the things I've had at university and that I have grown up with (being Faroese and studying Faroese but not studying Old Norse per se), it treat the Old Norse material quite respectfully. Oh, and also "niður og norð" also exists in Faroese. From the dictionary: "far (ríð, renn) tú niður og norð(ur) (til fjandans)" so literally: "Go to Hel(l)".
The word dimension was originally used in fiction as the direction to move to get to the "other world" and not the other world itself, so typically a dimension other than the normal 3 with which we're familiar. At some point they got conflated and dimension is now (incorrectly!) used to describe other worlds or universes.
As always, an interesting and informative video. Based upon your discussion, it sounds as you hold that Niflheim is the same as Hel. In an earlier video about the nine worlds, you distinguished between the two. Am I missing something?
Noah Elkins: Yeah, I heard Dr. Crawford mention that, but y/h drift being a common feature in the evolution of Germanic languages from archaic to modern forms, I thought I'd ask 'cuz there does seem to be both a phonic and meaning similarity between "gjoll" and "holler" based upon Dr. Crawford's translation of it being a mournful cry.
Interesting idea, but ModE 'holler' is a direct descendant of ModE 'hello', which itself is from Old English 'ēalā', which is not etymologically related to 'yell'.
From Urbandictionary: "Holler - in the south east mountains of the united states this word is used instead of hollow; a small rising valley region between two hills or mountains; often containing a creek..."
Yes. The word "Hel(l)" is pan Germanic. The spelling "Hell" is Old English and means specifically the same as Old Norse "Hel". Much of christianity is borrowed from prechristian Germanic paganism. Like the word "God" itself, originally meaning a Germanic deity. Check out "The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity". It is a great, scholarly book that covers many of these topics.
Gweilo Xiu Well -- you're right that the *word* "God" in English is from Germanic mythology and language, but the meaning changes quite a bit between the two religions. For essentially every polytheistic people Christianity came into contact with, the native word for the gods in its singular form was transformed into the name or title of the Christian godhead. Examples are Greek "Θεός," Latin "Deus," Slavic "Бог," and of course Germanic "Gott/God/Gud." Your book recommendation is solid, though, and I'm not disagreeing with you that modern Christianity does have noticeable amounts of Germanic influence - just clarifying a point about the word itself.
Gweilo Xiu Are you saying that "God" was a concept the Christians adopted from European religions? Or are you just saying that Christians, when translating their scriptures into European languages, used European words, like "God"?
C. Scott i have pondered this. I have no factual evidence but if you compare the 2 stories there are sooooooo many parallels. Odin hung on the tree for 9 days, jesus hung on the cross for days, odin was sacrificed ( to himself) jesus was sacrificed. I could list many more but it seems at least where europe is concerned that christianity adopted or adapted to bring in to the fold the heathens of the likes of the brittish isles. Easter and christmas are also prime examples. The stories of both religions are so similar when you look deeper. Look at modern santa clause with his sleigh pulled by reindeer, in pagan stories that is Thor with his chariot pulled by his 2 goats. It really does make a person think that in the early stages that christianity adapted to suit itself and cement its grip on the lands of europe.
@@CScott-wh5yk the word "god" comes from a germanic language. Not to be confused with the concept. Also keep in mind that Christianity stems from and is a form of Judaism, a religion far older and separated with distance from the specific germanic paganism. As for any parallels, they might very well be random or so loosely related that they can be treated as such.
Why would you have such a loud intro and then not equalize and boost your speech, when you have such elaborate shots that would denote a higher production quality than the sound mastering provides?
really loving your break down videos on these stories. i find them very informative and entertaining!!! Thank you for the work you do in sharing this wealth of knowledge with us all. Did i see the bulge of a dip in your left cheek? ;) Gotta love a dip when your on the farm.... #cowboyup :)
Could the companies of men be going to hell because although they were warriors they died in some other way (maybe at sea or illness or even starvation)?
As per the primary sources, not all who die in battle go to Valhalla. Freyja gets first pick of the battle slain, Odin gets second pick, and the rest go to Hel (or elsewhere) like everyone else.
Definitely something special about Sleipnir but other poems and myths seem to implore that there is a geographical location of Hel. Maybe the road is so perilous that you wouldn't survive going there without Sleipnir? Would be an interesting way of committing suicide as well, walking to Hel. Don't think literature gives a clear answer to this. Good question though.
The map is not the territory. However the Norse imagined Midgard , did they ever draw pictures or maps, and if they did, what direction did they place at the top? Ynga offers, " Midgard is never physical described that I know of." So, there's no 'map', I might suppose. But, Dr. Crawford does say North and down. ( The ancient Greek equivalent of the common curse was to wish someone an unburied death as in, "Go to the crows" or "Go tell it to the crows" as I recall. Pagan curses were more colorful.)
Considering that Christianity was introduced to Denmark during the viking age , is it possible that there may have been an old norse translation of the bible written in younger futhark?
Not likely. The Latin alphabet also came with Christianity, and runes were not used for writing books. With one known exception, the Codex Runicus from around 1300, containing the Scanian law, the regional law for Skåne, now in Sweden, then in Denmark. The Codex Runicus isn't even written in the younger futhark, but in the medieval runic alphabet. Parts of the Bible was translated to Old Norwegian around 1300. That is as far as I know the only Bible translation to any dialect of Old Norse.
May I please ask why there are so many rolls of tongue speaking Norse? Was it a natural sound they would make without meaning? A sound to show emotion? I am just so curious about how the difficulties for some are just natural for others in pronouncing or articulating sounds of words...have we lost something significant...is that why we have to put a label on everything that is misguided? I hope my question makes sense.😊
Before I say a possibility of what hel was when you state it was before volhol I know I am not a professional historian like you but it is possible hel was a cautionary tale to have honor unlike those that went to hel.
Saxo Grammaticus' accounts about Hel are quite different than the ones from Snorri Sturluson, which is quite interesting given the different generations and geographical realities of both. Almost 200 years apart you can clearly see the growing influence of Christianity in the Norse myths. If we look into older sources like the accounts within the Poetic Edda and other Eddic poems, let me see... for instance Fáfnismál, Grímnismál, Baldrs Draumar, even Sólarljód etc. there is a clear perception that Hel is nothing like it is described in the Prose Edda's Gylfaginning. Basically, the older the literary sources are, the less "hellish" Hel seems, and as the sources progressively come closer to our time and have more Christian influences, the darker and deeper Hel becomes, more similar to the Christian perception of underworld/Inferno.
Saxo and Snorre were contemporaries, as far as I know.
really interesting, many thanks Dr Crawford
man you look so much happier when you're out of that cramped whiteboard room
To get to Hell (next to Stjørdal) near Trondheim looks to be about nine days ride north, and down once you reach the fjords.
Having a trestle table set up for you for eternity in Hel doesn't sound too bad.
Mercii
Thank you! 😀
Just bought your mug. I’m so excited!
Oh, sp that's where "nord og ned" comes from! Probably learned it in school, but I'd forgotten about the origin of that one. We use that expression quite a lot in Norway.
I'm from Brazil and I'm a great fan of your videos and each new video makes me more interested in norse mythology and in the culture and language that evolved with the people. I have a question for you: at 4:35 you said that in an "earlier stage of belief" Hel was the default place where the dead went and there was no Valhal (or people just didn't go there after death), so I wanted to know exactly this, if Valhal always (since the beginning of the norse myth) existed as an after-deah scenario but humans were just no allowed to go there or if it just appeared at some point after the Gods and the realms already existed.
Thank you for all the great videos. I wish you...all the best!
I had read years ago that the dead should be buried with a good pair of shoes. For the road to Hel is full of perils. Also surrounded in a storm of ice
Thank you for another great and informative video!
Nord og ned (North and down) is not an insult in modern Norwegian but rather a way of saying things are going to hell. "Landet går nord og ned" = "The country is going to hell" or if you like: "The country is going down South"
In Icelandic you could say "farðu norður og niður" (go north and down) to insult someone but it's pretty archaic and more likely to cause mirth than offence.
Archaic in these times is 2008, lol
Very interesting, thank you! 🌞N
I love your videos.
I share them a lot in our community of Pagans.
They being highly appreciated.
Please keep on posting.
Very informative
I really wish my college professors were this hot.
Maybe the "down" in the "down and north" expression for "Go to Hell" wasn't down as in through or into something but over or across as in a change in elevation while crossing land like going from mountainous terrain to one of a more-sea level nature or valley-like environment much like how the oft-misunderstood meaning of the title to Jules Verne's famous nautical-themed novel "20,000 Leagues Under The Sea" isn't a measurement of the total depth achieved by the submarine craft featured in the book but is about how far out into the sea it went while under water.
I did actually wonder if Gunnr ever had the form Guðr in complicance with the -nnr > -ðr sound change, now I know. I believe Fiðr (< FInnr) is also attested. Thank you.
Also, while everybody has been talking about the TV show Vikings, I wonder if you've ever come across the videogame Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. There are full playthroughs of the game here on UA-cam and based on the things I've had at university and that I have grown up with (being Faroese and studying Faroese but not studying Old Norse per se), it treat the Old Norse material quite respectfully.
Oh, and also "niður og norð" also exists in Faroese. From the dictionary: "far (ríð, renn) tú niður og norð(ur) (til fjandans)" so literally: "Go to Hel(l)".
The word dimension was originally used in fiction as the direction to move to get to the "other world" and not the other world itself, so typically a dimension other than the normal 3 with which we're familiar. At some point they got conflated and dimension is now (incorrectly!) used to describe other worlds or universes.
Hel is the fun place
As always, an interesting and informative video. Based upon your discussion, it sounds as you hold that Niflheim is the same as Hel. In an earlier video about the nine worlds, you distinguished between the two. Am I missing something?
I've been wondering the same thing. Sometimes they seem to be inerchangeable and other times, they're referred to as being separate.
I could be wrong but I do believe that Hel is somewhere in Niflheim
The Christian conception of Hell as underground is derived from the Jewish Sheol, which is a unified afterlife just like Hel was in early myths.
As for the river named "Gjoll", could the Modern English word "holler" bear some linguistic connection to/relationship with it?
Did a bit of google research and it seems like holler is mor related to hello and archaic halloo.
No, it's most closely related to ModE 'yell'
Noah Elkins: Yeah, I heard Dr. Crawford mention that, but y/h drift being a common feature in the evolution of Germanic languages from archaic to modern forms, I thought I'd ask 'cuz there does seem to be both a phonic and meaning similarity between "gjoll" and "holler" based upon Dr. Crawford's translation of it being a mournful cry.
Interesting idea, but ModE 'holler' is a direct descendant of ModE 'hello', which itself is from Old English 'ēalā', which is not etymologically related to 'yell'.
From Urbandictionary:
"Holler - in the south east mountains of the united states this word is used instead of hollow; a small rising valley region between two hills or mountains; often containing a creek..."
Is the name of the Christian Hell taken from Hel?
Yes. The word "Hel(l)" is pan Germanic. The spelling "Hell" is Old English and means specifically the same as Old Norse "Hel".
Much of christianity is borrowed from prechristian Germanic paganism. Like the word "God" itself, originally meaning a Germanic deity.
Check out "The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity". It is a great, scholarly book that covers many of these topics.
Gweilo Xiu Well -- you're right that the *word* "God" in English is from Germanic mythology and language, but the meaning changes quite a bit between the two religions. For essentially every polytheistic people Christianity came into contact with, the native word for the gods in its singular form was transformed into the name or title of the Christian godhead. Examples are Greek "Θεός," Latin "Deus," Slavic "Бог," and of course Germanic "Gott/God/Gud."
Your book recommendation is solid, though, and I'm not disagreeing with you that modern Christianity does have noticeable amounts of Germanic influence - just clarifying a point about the word itself.
Gweilo Xiu Are you saying that "God" was a concept the Christians adopted from European religions? Or are you just saying that Christians, when translating their scriptures into European languages, used European words, like "God"?
C. Scott i have pondered this. I have no factual evidence but if you compare the 2 stories there are sooooooo many parallels. Odin hung on the tree for 9 days, jesus hung on the cross for days, odin was sacrificed ( to himself) jesus was sacrificed. I could list many more but it seems at least where europe is concerned that christianity adopted or adapted to bring in to the fold the heathens of the likes of the brittish isles. Easter and christmas are also prime examples. The stories of both religions are so similar when you look deeper. Look at modern santa clause with his sleigh pulled by reindeer, in pagan stories that is Thor with his chariot pulled by his 2 goats.
It really does make a person think that in the early stages that christianity adapted to suit itself and cement its grip on the lands of europe.
@@CScott-wh5yk the word "god" comes from a germanic language. Not to be confused with the concept. Also keep in mind that Christianity stems from and is a form of Judaism, a religion far older and separated with distance from the specific germanic paganism.
As for any parallels, they might very well be random or so loosely related that they can be treated as such.
Why would you have such a loud intro and then not equalize and boost your speech, when you have such elaborate shots that would denote a higher production quality than the sound mastering provides?
Love the video, but the intro and outro are a bit loud, compared to everything else.
really loving your break down videos on these stories. i find them very informative and entertaining!!! Thank you for the work you do in sharing this wealth of knowledge with us all. Did i see the bulge of a dip in your left cheek? ;) Gotta love a dip when your on the farm.... #cowboyup :)
Could the companies of men be going to hell because although they were warriors they died in some other way (maybe at sea or illness or even starvation)?
As per the primary sources, not all who die in battle go to Valhalla. Freyja gets first pick of the battle slain, Odin gets second pick, and the rest go to Hel (or elsewhere) like everyone else.
If you die at sea, you might go to the hall of the giant Ran.
I mean, even Sigurd went to Hel so it's entirely possible
ah, yes...dala == "modern" Anglish 'Dale". So cool!
In theory than could any living being ride to hel in myth? Or could the journey be made because it was odins horse? Thoughts?
Definitely something special about Sleipnir but other poems and myths seem to implore that there is a geographical location of Hel. Maybe the road is so perilous that you wouldn't survive going there without Sleipnir? Would be an interesting way of committing suicide as well, walking to Hel. Don't think literature gives a clear answer to this. Good question though.
Guess you would arrive either way
I guess someone'll just have to try it. :P
Has anyone read The Road to Hel: A Study of the Conception of the Dead in Old Norse Literature by Davidson?
Did Norse place South at the top like the Chinese?
The map is not the territory. However the Norse imagined Midgard , did they ever draw pictures or maps, and if they did, what direction did they place at the top? Ynga offers, " Midgard is never physical described that I know of." So, there's no 'map', I might suppose. But, Dr. Crawford does say North and down. ( The ancient Greek equivalent of the common curse was to wish someone an unburied death as in, "Go to the crows" or "Go tell it to the crows" as I recall. Pagan curses were more colorful.)
Considering that Christianity was introduced to Denmark during the viking age , is it possible that there may have been an old norse translation of the bible written in younger futhark?
Doubt it. The Bible was first translated to Danish at the reformation. It would solely be in Latin during the viking age.
Not likely. The Latin alphabet also came with Christianity, and runes were not used for writing books. With one known exception, the Codex Runicus from around 1300, containing the Scanian law, the regional law for Skåne, now in Sweden, then in Denmark. The Codex Runicus isn't even written in the younger futhark, but in the medieval runic alphabet.
Parts of the Bible was translated to Old Norwegian around 1300. That is as far as I know the only Bible translation to any dialect of Old Norse.
Handcarts notwithstanding
May I please ask why there are so many rolls of tongue speaking Norse? Was it a natural sound they would make without meaning? A sound to show emotion? I am just so curious about how the difficulties for some are just natural for others in pronouncing or articulating sounds of words...have we lost something significant...is that why we have to put a label on everything that is misguided? I hope my question makes sense.😊
Before I say a possibility of what hel was when you state it was before volhol I know I am not a professional historian like you but it is possible hel was a cautionary tale to have honor unlike those that went to hel.
The video is as usual very good, but maybe you should consider getting a better wind muffler for the mic..
:)
Hel or Valhöll!
What about Folkvangr? Why all the hate for Freyja?
I find these videos fascinating, but in every one there's a point where the wind makes your voice inaudible. Lovely scenery behind you.
Helvegr - Highway to hell
The Norse Hel seems more attractive than the Christian Heaven, which is rather boring.
Obviously a portal under the Arctic ice
Did you leave Berkeley because of all the crazy liberals haha
Well Boulder wouldn't be much of an improvement lmao
HugDispenser oh never been there haha