What's Up With Melee Weapons in Sci-Fi?
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- Опубліковано 1 лис 2023
- Spacedock delves into the use of melee weapons in various spacefaring settings within the science fiction genre.
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I love the explanation Dune and Kotor use. Personal shields are common enough that sometimes a sword or knife is more effective than a gun.
Using a lasgun against a shield in Dune can lead to a nuclear explosion. That's the reason lasguns are not used if it is possible that one of the opponents is using a shield.
@barbarossarotbart In the novel, the Harkonnen literally dust off some old conventional weapons to avoid that problem.
@@mitwhitgaming7722 I've reread the novel recently but cannot remember that this was mentioned. The only firearm mentioned is the maula pistol, but that's an assassin's tool. (David Lynch introduced the sonic module because he did not want to make a martial arts in space movie. And Dune is a prime exemple of martial arts in space.)
@@barbarossarotbart, Conventional artillery is used against the Atriedes army I’m pretty sure. I kinda hate it to be honest because it begs the question, why not just use guns instead of Lazguns all the time?
With a normal gun if you hit an unshielded person they die, if you hit a shielded person, nothing happens, whereas with a Lazgun if you hit an unshielded person they still die, but if you hit a shielded person literally everybody dies, along with whatever it is your fighting over.
@@barbarossarotbart Yeah, I was mainly referring to the conventional artillery.
I think katanas being so prevalent in sci-fi is mostly because 80's cyberpunk was so full of that paranoia of Japan becoming the new global superpower or something
I was going to post something similar, but I think that that there was a weird orientalist fetishisation of Japan too.
You also have Akira Kurosawa's filmography from the 40's through the 60's that heavily influenced directors and writers who grew up during those periods. George Lucas was heavily influenced by his samurai films when he made Star Wars.
Watch Star Trek the original series no Klingon Melee weapons the Bat'leth first appeared in TNG and only in 6 out of 176 episodes.
Film and TV directors and writers are going to be in their 20's when they start so you want to look at what they would have watched as kids and then you have copies (Gundam and it's beam saber).
There was also the pervasive myth the katana the best swords ever made due to their craftsmanship, the pendulum has swung and you now have a bunch of edge lords who hate the katana just because of that myth. Katanas look cool and people like samurai and ninjas for the same reason they like knights and pirates; media makes them look cool.
Also weebs (who obviously have a huge influence in nerd culture) have this misconception that katana's are the bestest sharpiest twirliest swords in the whole wide world (even though European longswords were better in pretty much every way).
@@SteelRaven11 you make me think of a game design class I went to where 4 oout of 6 teams independently came up with Ninjas vs. Pirates games.
One of them is Ninjas vs. Pirates vs. Dinosaurs.
I also think that in Boarding actions where a Gun might damage the Hull of a space vessel and decompress the Vessel, melee weapons might be useful.
wouldn't you be in spacesuits during any kind of space combat / boarding action? for a police force or special ops though I guess it can make sense
@@yjlomit's not about being exposed to vacuum, more the explosive decompression; there's air in a ship and there's not air in space
I would submit that any space craft hull designed to survive the ocasional small meteorite would also survive some small arms fire.
Now, there's the counter argument that the hull may be designed to stop projectiles coming from the outside, and yes fair, that's a point. But compared to the few hundret metres per second muzzle velocity of an assault rifle, relative velocities in space are really, really high.
@@jiggler1-1 it's only 1 atm difference if you're running an earthlike atmo, a fifth that if you're running full oxygen
so really not a big problem at all, it'd be like having a small vacuum cleaner running on the other side of the room
@@jiggler1-1 decompressions being explosive is a misconception, a spaceship is not like a gaz canister, it only has 1 atmosphere of pressure within it.
the atmosphere is only 1 bar (15 psi in heresy unit), the speed of decompression is dependent on the difference between both mediums :
space is 0 bar, atmosphere is 1 bar, so it's only a difference of 1 bar, opening a bottle pressurized at 2 bar (30 psi) will have the same force as breaching a hull in space.
Interesting story about Jack Nicholson in "The Shining". Apparently he was a former fire fighter and was so proficient with the axe that he kept going through the door too fast. The director had to re-shoot the scene multiple times telling Nicholson to go slower each time.
That reminds me of In the original Texas chainsaw massacre, where the original actor due to him being a heavy weight champion wrestler.
Was actually _too_ fast, he kept catching up to the final girl during the Chase scene.
And that's also the reason why you see leather face just randomly chainsawing trees and swinging it around instead of actually chasing her.
The version of that I heard was he completely obliterated the cheap, thin prop door they were using, so they had to go out and get a proper solid wood door for him to break instead of using what they had on hand.
One of my favourite reasons for Melee being in a sci-fi series is Outlaw Star. Many Space Stations have a "No Guns" policy because the insides aren't the best protected and one puncture to the outer hull and everyone gets turned inside out. There's even a great scene where someone brings a mech with a knife to the fight and Gene pulls out a gun and everyone is like "What the hell, man. He's not using a gun, don't fucking kill us all!" That being said, turns out Gene has loaded his gun with paintball rounds to blind the mech.
That is one of my favourite scenes as well. The Paint bullets was a great idea. There's also the point of guns not having the same personal level duel, and Outlaw Star kind of turned that on it's head as well - the Caster Gun duels felt very personal - granted, sort of a pseudo wizard battle as well.
Still not particularly realistic though unless the gun in question is absurdly powerful or the station is very small. Decompression happens slowly enough that there’d be plenty of time to plug a tiny bullet hole with tape or something before a significant amount of air leaks away.
@@saucevc8353someone could put their hand over the hole while everyone else looks for something to plug it. As long as you got to it quick and didn’t vent too much atmosphere or damage anything vital it shouldn’t be too big of a deal.
@@bansteban135 also even today we have frangible bullets used by air marshals. They are specifically designed to not puncture the outer skin of a jet aircraft. Or more importantly to not exit a suspect trying to take control of an aircraft.
@@saucevc8353automatic weapons fire, crossfire, complete incompetence on the part of stormtroopers... All these multiply the number of holes and increase the possibilities that they may be beyond the reach of people in settings where gravity is simulated in any way.
A major reason spears aren't used as much is because polearms are harder to choreograph for tv and movies. Swords are smaller, making them easier and safer to handle for stunts. Animated shows should use them more, but because they're used less, it seems harder to imagine the choreography. Games might not use them because like in real life, a polearm can keep multiple enemies at a distance and cause massive damage, so it might be a game-breaker, especially with a shield.
Sticks, clubs, knives, spears, and short swords haven't stopped being used since their invention. Even today, short swords like machetes are used in fights. It makes sense they'll be used in the future or in an alternate world.
and never forget the axe
im personally a big fan of more brutish weapons like axes and hammers, but even falchions with their more chopping style design appeal to me.
One of the other problems with spears, pikes and polearms is that they're especially effective as formation weapons, which don't work with the 'what's the one cool man in this army doing, because everyone else is a hapless mook' style of portraying combat. And choreography gets decidedly less interesting when it's mostly 'push'.
Also sci-fi is often done in tight quarters. Spears aren't very good in the tight hall ways of a ship. Even Starfleet ships.
On the realistic OPness of spears and shields in games, yeah, there's a reason polearms and shields were ubiquitous in every military on Earth until (for the latter) full plate armor and, later, handheld firearms.
@@reganator5000 That is true but a sibling of mine when casually sparring found having a spear, with little to no experience, gave her a major edge in sparring alone against multiple opponents
One tiny thing I noticed: Shepard's omni-blade should have shown up during the bit about monomolecular edges rather then during the energy and plasma weapon segment. According to the Mass Effect codex, the blade is actually a flashforged molecular silicon-carbide blade, suspended in a mass effect field but because it is transparent, its outlines get holographically marked for the safety of the user. Hence the glowing visuals. :)
It can also show up in a knives and tools section because well...Omni-TOOL. Just has a blade, shield, claw, or gauntlet program installed in it.
Honestly the Omni-blade is one of the melee weapons where it makes sense to have it even if its not useful the vast majority of the time...
The Omni-Tool already *has* flash-fabrication and holograms, so the Omni-Blade is just a program you install on it - you're not actually carrying around a heavy sword or something and can just deploy it when the enemy is suddenly inside "Oh shit" range.
@@johnwolf2349 Lol, I love that, suddenly "Oh shit" range.
Looks like a duck, cuts like a duck. Same reason he called lightsabers plasma even though Lucas calls them "lasers."
I can honestly say that placing a holograms on an invisible blade makes it a worse weapon all around. The user would have a much better idea where the blade is than his enemy would. Most swordsman swing the weapon out of their visual range all the time, and don't get cut up every time. But... an invisible weapon doesn't make for cool visual storytelling.
3:20 The Omni Blade is pretty unique among scifi melee weapons. It's described as a super thin silicon-carbide blade that gets printed on demand by the omni-tool's fabricator and is presumably discarded or recycled after use.
There's a survival tool also called the Omniblade. It has a saw-edged hatchet blade with a hole in it so it doubles as the handle for an axe, which in turn has a hammer head at the back.
I saw a really interesting analysis of the Batleth. It doesn't make sense as a Melee Weapon, but it does make sense as a Ceremonial/Honor Weapon, it difficult to use, and requires a great deal of skill to do so, and generally lacks the reach of most two-handed weapons of its size/mass, thus requires the courage to get in close to an enemy and the skill to survive doing so. It was devoped not as most weapons do, to stab people better, but to win more honor in the process of stabbing people.
pretty sure whoever made up the design for that thing just thought it looked weird and alien
I believe that was Skallagrim and they have a great channel for stuff like this and similar historical and fantasy analysis.
It is called the handicap principle.
If a warrior clan uses such an unwieldy weapon and still win, that proves how great warriors the are, earning them respect from the other clans.
@@schwarzerritter5724 This is basically my headcanon for the Batleth. It was designed to be hard to use, so that the value of achieving mastery with it was higher and was only intended to be used for duels or exhibitions. Then, at some point between the TOS and TNG eras, warriors started carrying them into actual battle on the logic that doing so would bring them greater honor and that trend kept going because it more or less worked given how infantry combat in Star Trek tends to operate.
C'mon, Mal! Even Vera couldn't (barely) pierce the hull!
You forgot to mention two important points why it often makes sense to have a melee weapon with you (next to some type of gun): 1. A (somewhat normal) melee weapon needs no ammo of any kind. So if your ammo is depleted you still have some emergency fallback. 2. A (somewhat normal) melee weapon can be used silently. So if you need to sneak your way through enemy lines and your gun makes "pew pew", probably use a sword, knife, wire, hands, ... .
Not to mention, a lot of history actually had swords _as_ a sidearm, since things like spears were the primary weapon.
Knives can still be used while grappling. If someone grabs my long gun here we go.
1) This is only a consideration if the enemy is _also_ out of ammunition, otherwise, it makes you more likely to be shot.
2) The Welrod and De Lisle carbine come to mind... Also, a crossbow.
Was about to write the same thing. Muv-luv brought it up in a conversation when two characters discussed why they used swords.
3. If you are very close to your enemy, an edged weapon might actually be better than a gun. It does depend on the gun and the weapon of course, but in general, weapons have a minimal effective range. And knives have the lowes minimal effective range of all weapons, being fully useable even during a grapple.
The origin of the katana myth was the movie Highlander (1986). They presented it as some kind of super-sword that was beyond anything else ever made.
Katanas have been prevalent in Cyberpunk since the late 70s because of orientalist fears of the Japanese economy
tbf every sword in Highlander was a super-sword because of who was wielding it but yea
A lot of the more powerful power-assisted weapons in 40k started out as ship boarding weapons. The powerfist and chainfist are designed to rip open sealed doors or cut through bulkheads respectively, and the thunder hammer is a demolition tool. It's just that Astartes power armour and Terminator armour is so tough that weapons of that nature are needed to have a decent chance of penetrating it. The Vulcan Lirpa, on the other hand, is loosely based on the real-life Monk's Spade, a traditional Buddhist tool carried by wandering priests that has a curved blade on end and a man-catcher hook on the other. The hook was used to keep animals at bay without hurting them, and the blade was used to bury any corpses the priest found. In time it evolved into a more martial weapon as used by the Ikkyo-Ikki warrior monks of Japan.
Small correction on the monk's spade - this weapon was mainly Chinese, not Japanese. Would have probably been found in Japan to a degree, but it was probably not used by the Ikkyo-Ikki, whom armed themselves mainly with Naginatas and whatever they cound find at hand. Also, they were partially monks, but really it was more of a grassroots uprising against samurai rule in Japan. The Monk's spade is now popularly known as a shaolin weapon.
And the tactical dreadnaught battle plate of the Astartes is itself a modification of a dark age of technology era workers protection suit for conducting hot-maintenance inside space ship plasma reactor cores...😂
In 40k, it makes sense why each faction would have melee (except one). The Imperium is backwards, so of course they would use melee. The Eldar and the Necrons do it out of tradition, and the Tyranids and Chaos… maybe melee has a fear factor? The Tau stand out, because they are the most logical out of all the factions. Why would they make a plasma sword when they can make plasma bullets?
The modern 40k Power Fist is actually a purely combat-oriented model derived from a breaching tool, considering it's been around for only the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy and all the stuff that came before that was innovation.
@@SonsOfLorgarWell... the Cataphractii pattern certainly was. Later modified for combat, it's the oldest kind of Terminator armor. Tartaros and Indomitus (along with the Aquila MK VII armor) were invented at the beginning and end of the Horus Heresy respectfully (the latter of which was first produced shortly before Mars fell to the Traitors).
I'm pretty sure the Omni-blade from Mass Effect isn't a plasma blade, but rather a thin, physical blade the Omni-tool's mini fabricator can make for CQC in a pinch. In lore all military Omni-tools have the ability generate the blade, but wasn't frequently used in favor of other melee options like Biotics and vibroblades. And they only got a resurgence in use in Mass Effect 3 as a reliable fall back option against the Reaper's Husks
I liked the premise of the battleaxe in "Edge of tomorrow" and more so in the book "All you need is kill". It's explained well in the book, the aliens have adapted to mankind's preferred weapons. ( Guns ) The main characters have accidentally tapped into the aliens ability to send information to the past. They learn that guns are not effective so they train themselves with a battleaxe. Lethal at close range, the aliens aren't expecting it and never runs out of ammo.
Star Wars Lightsabers, 40k Chainswords, and Halo Energy Swords will always be awesome weapons, even if they pose more of a hazard to the user than the enemy. That's the fun part.
When i had my first contact with warhammer in dawn of war i had the headcanon that space marines use chainsword because they yould not harm them. Since they wear armor that would protect them from their own weapons.
With time i learned that even normal humans use them but i always liked the idea.
At the very least in Halo only Elites are given energy swords, and they always have armour with energy shields to go with the swords so it should be safe, for them.
They exist because real science fiction weapons are boring nobody want to see conflict end in less than a second. These are all fantasy stories that have elements of real world technology rule of cool.
I don't know if you can buy them or not but somebody invented a knife with a CO2 cartridge.
You stab it embolisms, freezes, and generally makes a mess of things. That's just with CO2.
Also good luck to the corner trying to figure out what caused that wound.
@uwesca6263 the books are inconsistent as with many things 40k but chain weapons cut armor without much difficulty apparently as long as you can press/swing hard enough. Horus heresy books have pointed out that space marine armor might as well be paper mache for all the protection it offers lol
The real reason why melee weapons are used in science fiction is because they allow a conversation between the fighters. Even if they do not talk, the exchange of blows in itself allows characters to express a lot of emotions or convey something interesting to the audience. Something that can not be easily replicated with guns, because the longer distances they are intended for (and the noise they generate) prevent adversaries from hearing what the other says.
Good point. I feel all too often people take realism as some sort of ultimate goal of fiction. It can work, but there's also room for crazily unrealistic fiction. Especially in space opera and fantasy. That and, when some one says their favorite spec fic is "realistic" it often comes off as insecurity. The idea that they have to prove their work is pseudo-objectively better for it to have value.
I remember taking a film analysis class my freshman year of college. The professor said that a great action film and a great musical should have action scenes and songs that matchup damn near perfectly. If you have a character fight or sing and you can't tell me a thing about their personality or inner thoughts then the scene fails
I feel like that applies to mechs at some degree too , mechas even the non-humanoid , are more expressive than wheeled/tracked vehicles
@@ulforcemegamon3094 Yeah. Irl legged vehicles much larger than a human would be pretty impractical. They're tall so it would be really easy to spot and hit them, they have a ton of moving parts so maintenance would be quite expensive and there would be constant breakdowns, and any terrain rough enough that they'd be needed over tanks would probably be better negotiated by flying units. But they look incredibly cool and are really expressive so we have tons of them in fiction.
Well in sci fi you can just use microwave band radios that transmit voice broadly
I'd like to see more shields in sci-fi settings. Imaging a boarding action with the troops carrying large shields, forming a wall that marches down a corridor.
That's why I love Horus Hersey Space Marine Boarding Teams and 40k Aribites!
you basically just described terminators and or shieldguard veterans lmfao it's good fun with them
Jackals from Halo truly missed their calling :D
I know that Gundam absolutely loves shields with them seeing all kinds of use across the franchise. Sometimes they are just simple slabs of metal, while other times that are more complex with various sci-fi flourishes.
That happens all the time in Warhammer 40k tho.
I feel like you missed talking about the humble combat knife. Current troops are trained to fight with them (and fight WELL with them), but they're also multi-tools. Many times, they're used as any number of things because they're so well made, and it's a weapon that is 100% and never runs out of ammo. I don't think that will EVER go away no matter how advanced technology gets. Your side arm may be more complex than a Galaxy class starship, but among your kit will still be a humble blade. Just in case.
And what about the even humbler spade? It's so useful as both a tool and a weapon that combat troops like the U.S. Marines have developed a system for weaponizing it.
Entrenching tools
@@hellacoorinna9995 Yeah, that's the phrase I was looking for!
Was a marine infantryman. Bayonet training is rudimentary at best and is primarily used for aggression conditioning than anything else. Modern combat troops do not receive any advanced training in edged weapons and aren't really any more skilled in their use than anybody else.
@@nonyabeeznuss304 I have my suspicions that the bayonet and utility knife may be kept around, but they probably aren't major weapons to train in some sort of martial art with. And we haven't even gotten to Mars. My bet is, if we do get to the red planet we'll have some form of drone do most or even all of the fighting. If we even have conventional wars at that time.
Stargate SG1 had the Staff weapons for melee/ranged weapons. One reason for that was the ranged part of the staff weapons wasn't very accurate. They were tools of terror, not efficiency. In that setting order was mostly maintained by fear.
Remind me one episode where they give bunch of free Jaffa P90s. They present staff weapon as tool to frighten enemy and P90 as tool to kill them.
A Cutlass would actually make sense while fighting on a starship. Bullets don't stop after they hit someone, and sensitive things like electronics don't respond well to being shot. If you had a laser weapon strong enough to kill a person it's going to make a lot of heat. So in addition to breaking things that you don't want broke, it's a fire hazard in a high oxygen environment. And that's assuming that the whole of this ship can't be breached by handheld weapons and that you have some kind of artificial gravity. Imagine trying to use a sword in zero g.
Shotguns have low penetration and high stopping power, furthermore the shells could be downloaded with less power for even less penetration but still be more than lethal to an unarmored human. If pump action is not a desire than semi-automatic or drum-fed fully automatic shotguns are completely realistic and well known options in real life. Slugs, buck shot, bird shot, frangible rounds, high explosive, rock salt, armour piercing discarding sabot rounds or flechette rounds provide ample options to kill or wound targets in the closely confined space of a ...spacecraft, no pun intended.
You forget that "frangible rounds" already exist, and are used today by sky marshals for the same exact reason: planes/cockpits don't react well to FMJ rounds.
@@n.a.4292 no I didn't. I just didn't talk about them because my post was too long anyway. I also didn't talk about misses either. Look up hit rate statistics sometime, way more misses than hits in gun fights. I also didn't talk about how shotguns, handgun/sub guns, and frangible rounds have terrible armor penetration, but have some advantages over rifles and close quarters. None of which is relevant to my point that a weapon like a cutlass could actually be beneficial in combat aboard a spaceship.
I want to see a good sword fight in zero g.
Honestly, expecting danger boarding, those space suits will probably be armored.
I doubt you could rely on soft munitions. So if you can't use armor piercing rounds due to damaging the ship, melee would be a good bet. (Probably something armor crushing like a Warhammer.)
you missed the reason for swords outliving all other melee weapons in our history. They are an indicator of status or rank. if they happen to be used in an emergency it's just a happy coincidence.
The collapsible staves in Babylon 5 probably deserve a mention as well. Also add a point to one side and you have your sci-fi spear!
I believe it was called the Minbari Pike and was meant more for training, although its use in personal duels (something I found contrary to Valen's rule about no Minbari should spill the blood of another Minbari) was established in B5 Canon.
A similar weapon (IIRC) was the Highguard Lance (?) from Andromeda. This was presented as a peacekeeper tool in that it, while it did have small missiles, its main purpose was to disarm and subdue a suspect without causing them long-term injury.
@jeffanderson8165 its not pointy so its a loophole
And then there's the force stick from Andromeda (the TV show, not the galaxy) that extends from pocket size to a full-fledged quarterstaff and shoots energy bolts in both modes.
Also Rogue One's Chirrut Îmwe wielding a plain old pole.
Spear is a pointy stick.
Sword is a sharp-edged metal stick.
Ake is a fat, shar-edged metal stick.
Mace is a stick with chunks of dull metal attached.
STICK!
I remember being in someone's backyard wielding a Klingon bat'leth for fun. I swung it into a pumpkin, it got stuck in the pumpkin and it took three heavy pulls to come out.
Not a good day to die(or be a pumpkin)
Swords are common in melee combat across all genres because they're uniquely martial. A knife, axe, hammer, or spear can have non-war uses. Hunting, building, preparing food, etc. A sword is only used against other people. You give your characters swords to show they're warriors.
There are lots of shrubberies that have been felled by sword. Swords do indeed have use outside of war.
my favorite sci-fi melee weapon is probably the Power Fist (and variants, the Power Claw and Chainfist) because it's peak Warhammer silliness to have an elite soldier wielding a big killing glove
Tyberos, one of the space marines, fights with a pair of power claws that also have chainsaw blades on the palms.
In the Traveller RPG there's a 'space marines' weapon that's just called a Blade, which has quite a logical backstory. Melee weapons had died out long before mass spaceflight became a reality, but then, when boarding actions and fights in narrow corridors and tight spaces became a thing, the marines found that improvised melee weapons became useful again. At first, bayonets and survival knives were used, but then the quest for reach led to fighters seeking out things like machettes and parangs. Eventually, when it became evident that the requirement wasn't going to go away, militaries started doing research, writing specs and commissioning purpose-built weapons, most of which came down to something the Blade formula.
The Blade is essentially an evolved survival knife, and in sword terms, most closely resembles a Roman Gladius. It has a straight, single-edged blade (so that it doesn't cut your spacesuit if it gets pushed back against you) with a stabbing point, about 18-24 inches long, the length being a compromise between reach and handiness. They frequently feature a knuckle-duster handguard (to protect the spacesuit glove) and often have a hardened glass-breaker point on the pommel, giving the option to strike it down on a spacesuit visor.
Having fenced for a few years, I can honestly say that it takes a lot of time and effort to really master a sword, and those skills don’t always translate from one to another. Like, if you’re good with a rapier, you might well break your wrist if you just assume you can do that same stuff with a cutlass. And they don’t have a ton of range. Honestly, the most useful and flexible type is the one I never ever see onscreen: the Florentine style with a sword in one hand and a dagger in the other. But if you don’t really have the time to master the training, it’d honestly be more effective to go into battle wielding a good baseball bat. No, really: they’re built to easily flail around, the can mess you up BAD, they’re lightweight and easy to carry.
From a practical point of view, a sword could theoretically rip the hell out of a space suit, but honestly a harpoon gun would probably be a better choice there.
I feel like the best option really loops back around to spears again - you've got the range, the relative ease of use compared to a sword, and the potential for high damage without causing breaches.
@@lukapichler3666 Unless you want to cause breaches, of course. I’m sure you could put a shaped charge in the point of the shaft (Though that tended to take Japanese soldier’s arms off in WW2) or cover it with monomolecular spinny bits. If you’re fighting in zero G, then an axe would do a world of hurt to anyone you hit, but it would be hard as hell to wield, with a constantly shifting center of gravity every time you use it.
A lot of the sword styles in movies originate from the classic stage theatres style that had to be repeated multiple times on stage in front of a live audience. Aim for the tips of each others swords, follow the beat, swing wide and slow, jump for full effect to sell swings that go nowhere near you. Just look at the Darth Maul scene in the end of Phantom Menace, every swing was this style.
In the dune book they describe wielding a rapier in one hand and a stiletto in the other, reminded me of this
I think one of the other interesting reasons for melee weapons in Dune is not just the technological reasons but there is also a somewhat unspoken class reason- Dune is a world that is DEEPLY feudal and obsessed with stratification (what with the Faufreluches system and its "a place for every man and every man in his place" philosophy) and so having elite troops armed more like medieval knights makes sense because those takes a ton of training and allow you to cultivate a corps of elite fighters to maintain your power over everyone else (see- Duke Leto's elite army he was building before his betrayal or the Imperial Sardaukar).
Good point. That and the humans of Dune have given up on all but the most primitive computers, so maybe there is some idea of close range being better and more human. They have remote controlled drones but I can see how something like modern missile artillery could be viewed with suspicion, as it uses a ton of computerized stuff. It doesn't make logical sense, but Dune isn't about logic triumphing over all, otherwise we wouldn't have a story.
@@mattmorehouse9685 so basically they would not trust a HIMARS despite the fact just a few of them could wipe out an entire platoon of sword grunts from beyond visual range because its too technological. my understanding is somewhere in the background lore humanity had a "skynet situation" in Dune causing great distrust in advanced computing.
@@filanfyretracker the butlerian jihad put mankind close to extinction. After this, they tooled everything so down, that it could not evolve into computer again. With the exception of the IX....
@@filanfyretracker Pretty much. I know the first Dune book mentions a remote controlled drone, but that's pretty much it. Oh and to figure out who's their messiah an order of politician witches tortures teenagers. Cause that just screams trustworthy.
@@filanfyretracker "Skynet situation" is a good way to describe the Butlerian Jihad in Dune's backstory.
I've always suspected the bat'leth was originally meant specifically for duels, and only shifted into main use because that meant they were melee weapons that were still around and seeing use by many Klingons in times when a back-to-tradition movement got going and pushed for Klingons to once again return to mass melee use.
The popularity of the katana comes from the ninja craze of the 80's where Japanese martial arts was booming in the United States. During that time there was a lot of claims that the katana was the greatest sword that was ever made and could do miraculous things like cut gun barrels. This mindset was pretty much unchallenged until the 2010's when youtubers like Skallagrim, Scholagladitoria, and Shadiversity went against this and proved that katana were no better or worst than any other sword.
I would go back further when lots of foreign films were being released in the late 50's through the 70's when the Hollywood studio system collapsed and people stopped watching Hollywood films so theatres went to foreign and independent film makers one director who released a lot of films was Akira Kurosawa and his samurai films influenced George Lucas and Star Wars.
Shadiversity? Nah. The others deserve more credit.
It's been a while, but I think 1 or 2 UA-camrs actually proved that the English standard sword was better than a katana in terms of balance and manoeuvrability. Don't get me wrong, I do love the look of a well made katana, but I can still see where they would be coming from with those results...
Mythbusters tackled this before UA-cam did
@@LordCastigator well yeah, a wider guard, an extra side to cut with, tighter edge bevels and a pointier point also make it better but you still end up just as dead no matter which you get hit with
There was a story I read once about soldiers fighting in space.
They wore cloth and plastic suits that were not armored i.e. they were for working in and shielding you from vacuum. The only real difference between military suits and other suits were the hardpoints and other equipment they had on them to secure gear.
It was explained that very few ships had more than a single deck or two which offered any type of artificial gravity, so most crews lived in zero-g most of the time except for mandated exercise or rotational duties
In this story, almost all combat was hand to hand, with the only guns being massive, crew-served rigs that necessitated being bolted to a surface or equally massive rigs with compensatory nozzles and nodules worn in an exo-frame. These weapons did a lot of damage, but their need to be braced or compensated for made them less than ideal for moving quickly or without getting stuck in narrow corridors. Also, usually, if there was a breaching party, utilizing firearms was counter-intuitive since most of the time you wanted to capture your target mostly intact, and guns of most sorts could damage fragile equipment easily.
So, troops would collide in vacuum wielding knives with piercing tips, axes & picks that also could be used as boarding tools and which had small rockets attached to them, machete-like blades with exaggerated sharpened teeth which could pierce and shred suits when used in a quick sawing motion, and horrifying "Grippeners" which were essentially smaller, weaponized jaws of life that were attached to a victim's limbs then let go as they slowly closed up, eventually nipping off said limbs.
There was mentions of martial arts that had adapted from this zero-g combat that relied on strikes that could not be fully controlled due to being rocket-powered, slow grappling matches at weird angles, and which any breaches of your suit could cause you to suffocate or bleed out.
There was an anime back in 1990 or so called Sol Bianca (the original, not the remake OVA series) where one of the characters uses a variable sword straight out of Larry Niven's books. (It's a monofilament wire encased in a stasis field that's invisible except for a glowing bit on the end to indicate the length it's set to. Cuts through anything.)
Katanas likely drifted into sci-fi through cyberpunk. The heavy Japanese influence in that genre made them staples in sci-fi imagary of the era and they drifted into other sci-fi genres
What you said about melee being personal really makes sense. While it might seem silly that dozens if not hundreds of projectiles can bounce harmlessly off of a science-fiction monster or armored-brute, while the main character’s blade somehow breaks through (even though it should have less penetrating power), a blade allows the characters to get up -close and personal, which can allow a dynamic to be formed
The axes in starfield aren't fire axes per se, but the similar-in-purpose crash axes used on aircraft.
They were very common during WW2 multi-engine aircraft as they'd let you cut your way in to or out of the fuselage in a crash, safely cut through live power cables, lever open panels and doors, and be a useful survival tool after. They're still relatively common on some aircraft/routes today, and I could 100% see them being standard safety equipment on every one of the small personal ships hopping between life-bearing planets in the starfield universe. That explains why every man and his dog has one.
Aside from the "rule of cool" effect that melee weapons have in SciFi, it really comes down to story telling. Melee fighting is similar to dancing, in that the participants can have an entire dialogue beyond whatever they may be saying. You cannot really do the same with guns, as the participants aren't interacting with each other anywhere near as clearly.
Gun Kata did make an attempt to bring the combatants closer together
I think that curved blade really makes the katana pop, gives your characters some real nice silhouettes
I like how SG1 puts together factions that use melee-ranged weapon hybrids (Jaffa, Ori), and then sort of simulates through the absurdity of such weapons.
I also remember that Stargate the system Lords had personal Shields which could stop energy weapons and bullets, but not a throwing knife.
Chainswords are a terror weapon. 8" tall post human, armoured like a tank, just walked up and splattered Barry all over 9 of his mates. Those 9 mates aren't going to stick around.
Once, 5 or 6 episodes back, it sounded like you said your name was 'Huge Iguana,' and now I can't unhear it. Great video, as usual.
I am Godzilla
My favourite explamation for sci-fi melee weapons comes from Man of Honour. It basically boils down to the fact that most person on person fighting happens during boarding actions, when you don't want to use ranged weaponry, as stray bullet can easly hit essential component like life support, or breach the hull
Great work! Warhammer 40k’s power weapons are a favourite of mine - a physical blade that can be energised is just cool
There is also the existance of rush and swarm faction that would make haste in closing a distance to the point melee weapon is necessary just to take out as much enemy as possible before death or survive the battle entirely because any damage possible is great especially after you ran out of bullet or your gun is broken.
@@muhammadharunnurrasyid1073Also, the neverborn. As Thiel realised at Calth, fire and blades work best against warp spawn.
Cinema is pretty good with light slashing weapons, but I imagine it's quite hard to work with dedicated thrusting weapons in a safe way or making believable impact weapons. Especially because fantasy hammers and axes are so often ridiculously oversized. There is also the tropes and qualities we attach to certain weapons, since heroes usually use swords if a sci-fi setting is going to have any melee weapons it'll be a sword.
I do love that Stars Wars took a unique direction with their energy swords. Lightsabers are not only good melee weapons, but, in the right hands, can have some ranged abilities. Their ability to deflect blaster bolts that hit them means that they don't necessarily need to get in close for a killing blow. Later media would offset this advantage if physical projectiles were used, causing them to become molten slag that can still injure someone using a lightsaber. Though, in my opinion, Mass Effect omni blades are likely the most practical energy melee weapon. You can put so much force into the strike since its mounted on the arm, and the way it unfolds looks epic (even if it should technically be unnecessary). Plus, if you're close enough for melee combat, a shorter ranged omni blade backed by a pistol is probably gonna give you an advantage
Mounting on the arm does help yes, but it's not as big a force pulitiplier as an additional lever point (your shoulder and elbow for something like an omniblade, but also your wrist for properly held melee weapons).
What the omniblade does have going for it is that it's basically the most portable thing ever, since it's ablento be flash forged in an instant and is from there basically like shattered glass in the wound once you break it off.
Imagine if the imperial troops actually used laser weapons on Jedi that would be a short fight.
Oh, very definitely the lightsaber has a ranged function ... in the hands of a Jedi. There's a scene from Timothy Zahn's Thrawn trilogy where Luke Skywalker throws his lightsaber the same way Thor throws his hammer Mjolnir.
@@southcoastinventors6583 The original stormtrooper concept actually had them using lightsabers as boarding weapons. Their armor (as well as Darth Vader's) takes a lot of design cues from samurai armor as well.
One of the ways they're justified in 40k specifically is that, in the lore, most factions either have such excellent armor that you have to hit it multiple times to breach it, or have holographic optical camo systems which project illusory copies of the user to distract the enemy, and defeating both such syatems is easier to do the closer you are which draws combat ranges in extremely close and means melee secondaries or even primary weapons are important. Meanwhile, the factions with the best guns don't like getting in close and instead spend a lot of time trying very hard to not get bumrushed by the seemingly insane people they're fighting. This isn't helped by the often claustrophic battlefields inside gigantic heavily crewed space ships or war torn mega cities populated by trillions of people who would very much like you to get the hell off their lawn. Then there is the demons who often just can't be harmed effectively at range because magic warp nonsense.
With regards to the image of the katana in sci-fi, I do think it goes firmly back to Star Wars and its heavy influence from Jidai Geki films like Seven Samurai and The Hidden Fortress and the way in which the design of the katana influenced the look of lightsabers. Also the katana crave that emerged in the mid 2000s definitely helped with this as well.
Enterprise had a practical meele weapon used by the MACOS - a collapsable tonfa with a built-in taser.
The baton part is retractable to make it easily carried on the hip, and when extended in a single motion it reveals a point that is electrified.
It's a useful weapon for when you're suddenly grappled as it can block stabs like a reinforced forearm, and with the taser you can zot a enemy to disable them.
Adding tasers to nimble meele weapons seems like a no brainer.
A tonfa with training is a useful defensive weapon, adding a electro-stunner to it means it can incapacitate with just a touch instead of requiring strength and the space to wind up to club the enemy into submission.
Afterwards, that gives the MACO time to recover their rifle.
It also doubles as a useful crowd control weapon, although a phaser on stun would be more efficient.
To quote Worf: "Swords are fun."
Ezra Bridger’s lightsaber blaster is a good example of a mixed weapon I think. You can only activate one at a time, but Kanan showed that you can switch between the two pretty fast, and your hand doesn’t have to be on the blade to use the blaster
I could see some kind of high-intensity plasma or fusion torch being used as a melee weapon by either mechs or power armor, where the immense heat (and possibly radiation) would not affect the pilot/wearer, and you would have access to an established power source. However, forget trying to duel with these things; the "blades" would just pass right through each other.
one thing i do think is fun is that despite the similarities between star wars's lightsabers and the beam sabers from mobile suit gundam, gundam's beam sabers avoid one of the big nitpicky holes with lightsabers, the fact that you mentioned, having your hand near an encased plasma blade like that would surely harm you as well due to radiated heat, with the fact that mobile suits are less susceptible to this due to the fact that they are made of metal, and it makes more sense fior them to use an energy sword, this even gets pointed out multiple times in various series just how easily beam weapons can vaporize or kill nearby people unintentionally.
They are a convenient sidearm since they don't take up much space. The added length compared to a combat knife is also a benefit.
As far as universal application goes my favorite Sci-Fi weapons would probably be the knives from Dune, especially since they also went on to inspire the likes of the Progressive Knife and High Frequency Blade (as far as I'm aware).
GURPS Ultra Tech has rules for rocket boosted spears, both for long ranged throws and for some extra umph on the stab. I don't think they have rules for shaped charge tipped spears, though, which is a weapon that features in WH40k (to explain why this time having light cavalry charge at tanks is a good idea). There are rules for shape charge tipped arrows, though, in a separate article, which I suppose could be ported over.
Melee combat will always be more exciting than a gunfight.
I do agree that axes and crowbars are underused in sci-fi settings when swords seem appear everywhere. SG-1 and B5 did have allot of love for the pike.
"Lotta anti-melee talk for someone in plasma drill range" - a pro-union exoplanet miner
I can honestly see a lot of 'edge case' scenarios where melee would be common, similar to what we see today: cramped ship interiors, tunnel warfare, civilian uprisings, assassinations, and more. I'd imagine you'd want to actively avoid ranged weapons in near-future space combat involving infantry; don't want to shoot a hole in your ship while fending off a boarding party!
A space machete or even ooo a glowy plasma cutter thingy could realistically be carried by space forces to cut locks and breach sealed bulkheads which is why I’m always a little disappointed when doors are opened the boring old regular way (by shooting a control panel)
In the original drafts for Star Wars, the stormtroopers were supposed to use lightsabers as a boarding weapon. Even their armor (along with Vader's) is heavily inspired by samurai armor.
I just want to precise something about the historical aspect of swords (referring to 6:05) : It's probably not relevant enough to mention it in such a short video, but what's most important about swords is that they're specifically designed to fight other people and are completely useless out of combat, as opposed to other widespread melee weapons such as spears (which could be also used for hunting) and axes (which are basically tools). Now of course some spears and axes were specifically made for fighting, but in the general idea it remains that both of those are easily crafted, whereas swords are both difficult to craft and to maintain.
I agree that swords are harder to make, but the weapon VS tool point isn't really a thing, historically speaking.
Swords and axes are very similar in the sense that they can both be tools, can be tools repurposed as weapons, and can be dedicated weapons.
The early medieval Seax is mostly a tool, but was frequently used for combat, too. Throughout the middle ages, there are also countless knife/sword hybrids that were, to different degrees, meant as tools or weapons or both. There were also dedicated hunting swords since the 12th century. And while a hunting sword looks different from a regular fighting sword, the same is true for axes. You theoretically can hit someone with a large wood splitting axe, but a battle axe looks very different.
I'm sure someone's mentioned it by now but I do like the explanation that Traveller (a sci-fi tabletop RPG originally released in 1977 but still going today) uses - it's because stray rifle rounds can break something really important like the power conduit for the room's gravity plating, or the lights, or the life support. Or you're fighting near engineering where you *really* don't want anything hitting the reactor.
playing Starfield myself, I'd argue that melee weapons make more sense than guns. I mean, with guns, you always have the risk that one stray bullet could cause explosive decompression by tearing a hole into the hull 'cause... those are pretty powerful looking guns. with melee weapons like knifes, swords, axes, etc. you don't have that problem. guns are powerful and as time goes on, guns will continue to become even more powerful. being able to fire projectiles with more devastating power and more capable to pierce all kinds of armor. besides... swords in space are just way cooler than guns.
Unless you’re using a rocket launcher or ignite a fuel line or something a bullet hole should be small and take a while to vent a noticeable amount of atmosphere. It would likely cause hypoxia, barotrauma, etc. eventually so wear a spacesuit or alternatively for main characters don’t wear a spacesuit and make dramatic pained expressions.
As a gunsmth: i am pretty sure that you could make weapons for boarding actions that dont treat the spaceships hull. (Unless we are talking from something like the ISS)
Just use ammunition that is light and subsonic and now you have a lot less kinetic energy. Also stuff like flechettes or pressed ceramic blocks that evaporates when hitting a surface might be a good call.
@@uwesca6263 eh, maybe... its nowhere near as cool as swords in space though
@@zero3633 explosive decompression. Theres a scene in the expanse series where a projectile goes straight thruogh the jail cells. And the block it with a small meal tray or Something. And the small hole vents alot of amtosphere. And if thats enough to compromise the structural integrety youre out of luck
@@Echo-57 I've heard people say the Expanse is highly realistic, but then I hear stuff like this where a stray bullet goes through a prison wall. Part of it is that I once read A Song of Ice and Fire and thought it realistic (it says so on the back) but then I learned that Martin used outdated demeaning tropes for a lot of his cultures. So, what do you think of The Expanse? Thanks!
I really love the way they use axes in Legend of the galactic heroes and marines in power armor because it makes so much sense in the universe.
Both sides in the war have access to gas weaponary that basically can fill an area with explosive gas that makes it impossible to shoot guns do to them exploding. This means that marines immediatly can get a massive advantage over the normal ship crews that are defending ships simply by the fact they were armor and the normal shipcrew just wears his normal unarmored uniform. Even just with fists the marines would destroy the ships crew defending it.
The axes are primarily carried to fight against other marines in power armor and make logical sense as armor breaking weapons, to kill normal ship crew any melee weapon would be fine anyway.
However what is really great about this is that it makes boarding troops something special and not every basic naval personal can board a ship or defends a ship. Ships need to carry dedicated marine units to defend the ships like in the age of sails because the average sailor is fucked if the enemy has dedicated marines.
Then comes the aspect of them being like knights in the world building that makes it even better, especially because both factions inherited their military tactics from the previous united galactic human empire under Rudolf (before the republicans fleed and founded the alliance).
I also like that the explosive gas isnt just a gimmik to be used to justify meele combat in space battles, but its actively used as other parts of the military as well, especially asa mine clearing device. Several times in the show it is used to direct explosive gas into a certain area in space to basically at once blow a hole into a minefield, similar to how some modern anti mine equippment uses a throwable line of explosives to blow open a path in a minefield in real life.
And the fact that neather side has a proper counter to the explsoive gas weapons also makes sense, as it is made perfectly clear in the show that both sides treat this war effectively as a regular thing after 100 years, use the same tech and barely innovate on the technology do to the stalemate situation. The empire jsut uses its massive ressources and wastes it ineffricently (just look at their ship designs being more for show then war) so they dont innovate, jsut throw new troops at the problem while the alliance uses the strategic advantage of the two galactic travel lane bottlenecks to limit the war into a small area where its smaller ressources and menpower dont matter as much. The alliance generally speaking also has a better officer corps do to it relying far more on their admirals going through military academies to rise in ranks while the empire primarily hands out ranks do to nobility titles with far fewer carrer officers.
Oh man I love that worlds world building despite the "old tech" and "old scifi" by our current standarts :D
Here's another reason not often thought about. It doesn't matter how good armor gets human anatomy is human anatomy there have to be gaps somewhere to allow for mobility. Where there are gaps you can exploit them and a melee weapon is a reliable way to attack those gaps.
What about automatic fire, or a shotgun? Seems like those gaps could easily be sprayed down with a fast firing weapon or maybe some sort of micro missile. Heck, I'm betting we have drones to fight if we ever get to Mars.
I gotta shout out gravity hammers from Halo; brutes somehow develop hyper advanced gravitic technology despite being roughly equivalent our own early 20th century with all their other native technology (not including technologies taken from the covenant, I mean tech that the brutes developed themselves before joining the covenant) and instead of using this tech for ship propulsion, energy production or any countless other ingenious applications for such advanced technology, they instead just use it to squish things real good with a big hammer. That pretty much sums up jirilhanae culture perfectly to be honest and I wouldn’t have it any other way; plus as of halo infinite the banished have started using the tech in the prows of their warships (the dreadnoughts seen in the campaign) for ship to ship bartering purposes, which is clearly the logical evolution of the gravity hammer
Why use giant plasma beam to destroy human ship when gravity hammer destroys human
RE: Vendetta was absolutely ridiculous and I will still defend it because of just how fun it is.
Also, props for bringing up No More Heroes, the telescoping aspect of his beam katana is honestly a pretty cool way to explain just how you could have a beam saber.
My two favorite sc-ifi melee weapons are from Warhammer. The Powerfist and the Lightning claw. They are impractical as hell, but they are cool.
Personally a big fan of the Thunder Hammer too, I make sure to run it when I play Darktide
"Impractical as hell, but cool as fuck." may as well be the motto of 40K.
Heretics giving you trouble? *CHAINSWORD*
FOR HIM ON TERRA!!!
The best way of having melee weapons is combination use.
-One of the things that I mention in my stories are laser tridents. The idea is that they are ceremonial weapons. They consist of two side metal points (sometimes called a bident), but the center portion is a laser emitter. The trident can be used as both a laser rifle and used in close quarters.
- A gunblade can still also be used in mech-like units where the fear of injuring soft flesh or oneself becomes much less of an issue.
- Another idea is to have extendable polearms or extendable stun batons (similar to today).
- Otherwise, the best form of having a realistic melee weapon in sci-fi is to show it as a practical use survival tool pushed into the realm of a close-quarters weapon.
With realistic combo weapons, one is usually secondary to the other.
Historical gun blades would often have the sword as primary. (The pistol only having one shot.)
Bayonets are a bit better balanced, but in their case, you would only resort to them after firing a volley of bullets.
In my sci-fi setting, the only melee weapons present are from:
A: Breacher squads using chainsaw gauntlets to cut through a ship's hull.
B: Titanigrades (large tardigrades) having massive claws that can shear through steel. This, by extent, also applies to their large Man O'War hosts using their tentacles to grab and destroy things.
C: Rebel forces use mining gear to fight. Hence, large exo-suits use drills and claws to bash in anything that gets too close. Infantry just use random saws and plasma cutters for boarding actions since that's what's available.
Honestly one of the best ideas I have seen for sword/melee weapons existing in sci-if is basically because if they use guns you are going to shoot holes in your ship. If you use a melee weapon there is less of a change of that happening.
Can easily make guns that shoot lower velocity impact shells for boarding or robots.
In the wise words of Worf.
*"Swords are fun."*
The Muv-luv series brought up another reason to why melee weapons show up in scifi. That being the simple reason that they don't run out of ammo. And in this setting where even if you carry extra ammo and weapons, you are liable to run out of bullets before you do enemies, the extra weapons are sort of required.
I see you Dargo and your Qualta Blade, good to see Farscape being used as an all to rare reference.
I'm really surprised Forever War doesn't get mentioned? Guess that is because of a lack of media material, unlike Dune.
But it first thing that comes to my mind when talking about melee weapons in Sci-Fi.
Sword are the most common melee weapon because they are faster and more agile so they don’t need clever complex styles to look cool, you can just do basic stuff fast and it looks good. Plus when you add sci-fi elements to make them deadly, you don’t need the heavy end of an axe or you lengthen and lighten the sword instead of getting a spear/polearm/staff.
Two of the main reasons why Melee Weapons are so prevalent are:
1) They usually never run out of Ammunition/Power (things like Lightsabers being the exception of course)...
and
2) They tend to be MUCH quieter to use that a Ranged Weapon is (again, things like Lightsabers and Bows being the exception)...
Random note: The Power Weapons _(glowing blue weapons the narrator called "electrically charged to zap people.")_ are not designed to shock/electrocute, nor are they electeically charged at all. They produce, on contact, an energy discharge that temporarily disrupts the Strong Nuclear Force of whatever it is touching. The range from its surface, and how much it can effect, is dependent upon how much energy the weapon can manage to discharge at any given moment.
Bladed weapons are the most common due to the idea that the smaller the surface area that strikes the target - the less is required to make it an effective weapon. Basically - the sword, though sharp, is only sharp to minimize the amount of power needed. The blade is not cutting through someone - the atomic bonds are simply letting go... and an arm drops to the floor. Zero effort required beyond swinging the sword, and it did not slow down for even bone. The more dense a material - the more energy that would be needed to "cut" through it. While many Power Weapons have a power line that connects them directly to the Astartes' huge power pack on their backs _(Why all Astartes seem to have a huge backpack)_ they would need far, far more than that to, say, lop a tank in half... Thus - why they don't. Granted they DO have Power Weapons that _can_ be used against many vehicles quite effectively - Power Hammers. The heads of which _(swords, claws, etc not having the internal space needed)_;often being massive capacitors with the single purpose of storing, then discharging, a massive burst of energy... This often being enough to "blow" a huge chunk out of the armor of most any vehicle.
Samurai uses katana's, ninjas use a straight edge smaller sword called a ninjato (I think it was that). As it was a simpler sword to make, and it was easier to draw in small places and to hide.
I'm well aware that samurai were the users of long blades like katana, but you can't deny that ninjas are very often portrayed using them in western pop culture.
- hoojiwana from Spacedock
@@hoojiwana To be fair, most of the witnesses of a ninja's arsenal are dead, so...
Samurai is a social status and Ninja or Shinobi is the job of being a spy. Those are not mutually exclusive. A samurai could very well be a Shinobi at the castle of a rival Daimyo. Or a Shinobi could be clothed as a peasant or merchant, depending on the situation.
As someone who has actually spent some time fighting with medieval weapons as part of a Living History group, the fixation with swords in all media is a strange one in a practical sense. They're kind of unwieldy, less manoeuvrable than a long knife, and less reach than a spear. But similarly they were once a status symbol and that reputation carries forwards. But facing off against an opponent with a spear and a shield is something you have to be careful about.
Also, a spear made specifically as a weapon is not a spear but a lance. A spear is a hunting tool. Also they're almost always held incorrectly
I wanna seeca scifi halberd ngl
"So...your file says "Ronin"? What does that mean, exactly? Your one of those sword people? You know they make guns now, right?" Random guard in Starfield.
Props for using such recent footage from ST Lower Decks!
The best reason for having melee weapons in SF to my mind is simply not wanting to have anything that might puncture a hull or damage some critical piece of equipment with stray shots but that's rarely mentioned in the on-screen genre although you see it a bit more in books.
By the way there's a Frank Herbert short story called "The Coming of the Sword" which predates Dune and hypothesises a world in which some sort of radiation-based device is invented that can trigger just about any explosive, including gunpowder. It shows that he'd been thinking about a setting without firearms for a while. It's interesting that he then goes and subverts the world he's just created by having the Harkonnens reinvent artillery because Arrakis makes shields problematic.
You want slow moving just use flame throwers or genetically engineered animals with blades.
Katana are linked to the samurai and the ancient code of the samurai. Ninja actually used lots of things but the Kunai and Ninjado are the modern go tos.
And for the record that is why you use these weapons - religions, cultural and cool reasons
I'm well aware that samurai were the users of long blades like katana, but you can't deny that ninjas are very often portrayed using them in western pop culture.
- hoojiwana from Spacedock
@@hoojiwana My understanding is that the Nina-to straight sword is simply a Hollywood (or Japanese equivalent) invention. Many, though not all, ninja were actually samurai. Ninja (Shinobi) being the *job* of covert spy/assassin, while Samurai was a social class. Just like Sir Elton John is a knight, but not a soldier.
I'm surprised that the Jaffa staff weapon didn't get in here, but I'm happy that D'argo's qualta blade did.
I loved the red rising rapier/whip as beinga symbol of powerandable tocutthrough the uneverses power amour equivelent.
The Batleth actually makes the most sense as far as sci fi weapons. They're antlers. They are used for all the same reasons. They exist for combat theater, not to actually kill the opponent if possible.
A good argument for melee weapons is boarding actions, especially ones where you can't use firearms like in LOGH where they spread Seffle gas inside the hallways (it detonates if a firearm is used). Other factors include sensitive ship equipment and risk of decompression.
An earlier example is E E Smith's _Lensman_ books which IMHO had an interesting dynamic. Energy weapons were generally powerful and useful but if you were protected by a screen you could get into a stalemate. That's where the famous space-axe got to shine, or you could just bring a heavy machine gun on a cart with a screen generator.
Knives are practical tools, there are some problems that can only be solved with a knife, like if you happen to get tangled up, or if you need to cut something. Its why divers, and kayakers both carry a knife on easy access, just in case. Its why the soldiers in my universe carry a switchblade, it just so happens that if you get up close and personal the knife is better than nothing.
actually as a fencer, anakin's (new) form was really good. he used feints, bumps, power moves, lunges, blocks, ripostes, the whole gamut. much better than any previous star wars lightsaber battles
I find melee weapons have another advantage, they tend not to be lost like other weapons are, especially if they are personalized for each user. The lightsaber is a prime example. Guns are boring despite their effectiveness. 😁
Guns are boring? I guess you never used a firearm in your life. It gets real exciting when facing incoming fire.
I believe that Destiny 2's new(er) Glaive weapon-class is an excellent take on a polearm being used in a sci-fi setting, combining the basic use of a polearm (stabbing and slashing with a longer reach) with tech that improves upon its weaknesses (by having a energy projector for an offensive option at range and a shield to protect the user while they close the gap).
while i lke those Glaives i never met anything better regarding Melee than Warframe (not that i played *every* game that has Melee)
honorable spear mention, the Custodes Guardian spear from 40k
One of the best reasons for using melee Weapons in a Sci-Fi setting comes from Destiny.
In real life, a bullet has more kinetic energy than a sword's blade. Thus, it does more damage.
In Destiny, most weapons use "Light" and "Dark" to do damage. So melee weapons can have higher concentrations of one or the other to do more damage than a traditional firearm.
I was always keep thinking about this type of topic, thank you for making video, it will be useful for me for my personal project
So, I know I'm 3 weeks late with this, but the kinetic shields from Dune are actually based on similar shields from Lensman (in fact, a lot of Dune is inspired by Lensman) which had the same weakness to melee weapons and actually had different groups using different weapons besides knives.
And because the Lensman series basically came about from someone who saw World War I and thought, "God, how bad can technology make an arms race when it gets more advanced?" the melee weapons get increasingly elaborate as well.
7:58 Nice coordinated Valkyr fashion-frame you have there.
Some plantery environments prevent the use of energy weapons so melee weapons are a must in some situations
Why not bullets or arrows?
I feel like the only reason to use melee is armor/personal shields.
Ranged combat is safer and more effective whenever applicable.
@@DakkaDakka12 you are correct but media creators usually choose swords etc over guns probably because it's more visually entertaining
@@DakkaDakka12 Bullets also depends on logistics, so you either have to get new all the time or carry them all. 1 full magazine is not that bad, but once you have 10 it get's to you if you have to move around with the rest of the gear too. So you will run out if you don't get more, so as a back up it's nice to have something, same rule with arrows really, though you could say with a knife you can make those too if they are on the planet.
In the case of some here bullets wouldn't work as the suit or shields stops them, but can't stop slow or heavy blows. Like in Dune or LoGH (anime shown), were in the latter the also use gas to remove lasers.
So long as there’s a need to keep boots on the ground, there’s always going to be a need for melee.
It doesn’t matter how much warfare changes, older ways of fighting are always going to find a place and a time, regardless of how much anticipation and planning.
To be fair, while some of the katana's design elements might limit its overall effectiveness in a fantasy setting (it has fewer countermeasures it can employ against steel plate armor), in a modern or post-modern setting where metal plate armor is out of fashion a katana would actually be really effective. Personally, as far as plasma swords go, I feel that the plasma rapier is almost the scariest thing of all. A rapier has a very deadly thrust to begin with. In the case of a plasma blade, it becomes almost an instant kill, but the deadly slashing techniques that plasma blade technology would give a rapier would literally make it a freaking nightmare to face in combat. It changes the nature of combat entirely, and all of a sudden many of the countermeasures that could work well against a rapier would no longer be effective against a plasma blade, and MANY attacks that otherwise would not be especially effective with a basic rapier all of sudden become devastating. A rapier that is so good at slashing it can sever limbs is almost the scariest thing I could imagine, melee weapon-wise.
There is a side note, where melee weapons make sense and everyone always hand waves this aways.
Ammunition is limited.
Unless your primary weapon has infinite energy or has loads of ammunition and can use them until its over (like Mass effect), ammunition is always a concern, unless you get the chance to resupply or can use the weapons of the enemy.
But if either of these happen, the melee weapon makes sense as a backup (never a primary weapon), because it never runs out of killing capacity.
This of course entails that your soldier is proficient in its use, but it is a sensible option at that point specifically.
Yeah, we used to talk about it in the army, funny enough we all saw the feldspade as the better weapon/tool to have instead of the knife we got. As the reach and weight was simply better, and it could do what ever the knife could plus more like digging a hole or cut a tree.
@@-JustHuman- That's basically been the case since at least WWI trench warfare.