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@@jukeboxmimic6954 I appreciate the interest but the time needed to properly read and analyze the story of others isn't something I can offer at this moment. Done right, this requires serious effort and I don't provide any "beta read / editing" services at the moment that could cover this. This might change in the future though 🙂
The monologuing thing is why I love the Incredibles, Watchmen and Age of Ultron so much. Mr. Incredible uses it against Syndrome, Ozymandias enacted his plan thirty minutes before the heroes arrived and only monologued after, and Ultron has that “oh, here’s the part where I was going to explain my evil plan” and then cuts himself off by starting the fight
My least favorite Villain cliché: Killing subordinates for minor mistakes. It just breed internal rebellion, and there are other punishments that could be more effective in order to intimidate the minions, like reducing salary or taking away a promotion.
Not necessarily. It depends on the context. If I'm a stormtrooper, I'm going to be happy to get promoted because Darth Vader killed my CO. If everyone is pursuing power, backstabbing is going to be part of it.
That would have been a good one as well, yes - good addition 🙂At least in certain situations, this is somewhat of a cliché. It can work very well though - as most things.
I feel like that cliche works for certain types of villians but is still overused. A villian that is supposed to smart and clever wouldn’t do that. Now one with a temper issue or The enforcer of the main villian that could pass as the main villain now that’s different. Yes I just described Vader in that.
“Real life villains are not cartoonishly evil”. Well, read about Idi Amin Dada, Pol Pot, Francisco Macias Nguema, Nicolas Maduro, Jean Bedel Bokassa, Rafael Leonidas Trujillo and anything about the last rulers of Turkmenistan. Maybe you will rethink that phrase…
Nicolas Maduro abolished a system in which privately owned companies suff their pockets with the money earned by exploiting his nation's resources and replaced it with the one that uses the same money for the common good of his people and the betterment of the society. Then the bourgeoisie put embargo on him and now the resources are just sitting around and the whole system went bankrupt. Ofc they wont just let a nation liberate themselves and have their happy ever after. Incentivizing the people to free themselves from exploitation is bad for the exploitor's profit. If anyone is cartoonishly evil in that situation it's the capitalist neocolonial system.
I think a little "cartoon-ish" villains might be what stories need nowadays. Too often do we have antagonist with deep back stories that are designed to make the reader/viewer sympathize. It's honestly getting overplayed, and has muddied the morality pool to the point modern fictional villains are just misunderstood and not purely evil or having malicious intent or behavior. Let villains be villainous again without all the ambiguity.
Is that what i want Azrael villain of a drama novel is a "nazist" His past is not tragic is horrorful : he kill his mother and his little sister His ideology is simple: he believe in the laws of evolution "The life of your species is meaningless" "Being killed by me is the life's purpose"
The advice is simply that their motives should be logical, but not exactly valid. (In case anyone is confused, yes there is a difference.) The probelm with simplistic villains is they're boring. You know exactly what they're going to do, and you know they will have no actual reason for doing it. Just imagine writing the story from your villain's point of view. How tedious would it get?
Reminder that tropes are tropes for a reason, because they have been used to great effect in many a story. But you need to understand why they work to use them effectively. Poorly used tropes become cliches.
That's why I like the "trope talk" videos from Overly Sarcastic Productions here on UA-cam. Recommend you check them out if you have never heard of them.
The villain in my story is secretly a dragon that views humanity as his possessions and play things. Is very possessive, and he shape-shifted into the form of a powerful human to rule as an emperor for centuries.
I agree almost all of them. With the exception of cliché 5. A manipulative women who has the self-confidence to use her femininity [and attractiveness] as weapon is scary as hell. Personally, I find them even more scary, than smart women. Not to mention, smart people use everything they have in their disposal [including their beauty].
Honestly, seduction should be to a villainess’s toolkit what diplomacy is to a Lannister’s… “a very effective weapon, but by no means the only one; nor even the most effective in all circumstances.”
The problem comes in when their 'femininity' is reductive. Usually it's presented not as something they have the confidence to do but something they do due to a lack of confidence. Resorting to this is kind of a cheap shot used when you can't win another way. (Is she not smart enough?) Or it's a just a sexual fantasy of sorts from the author. When done well, it can actually be very fun, exciting, and even surprising. But that's not typically how you see it used. Making this their sole or primary tactic is just silly if she doesn't have any other depth to her.
@@zanzaboonda agreed- especially on the point of the character serving as ‘wish-fulfillment’ for the author. Conversely, could one then argue that this kind of reduction of a villainess to her sexuality is akin to reducing a bulky ‘Right-hand Man’ henchman archetype to his physicality? If so, then I agree completely on both accounts. I like to see female characters who can resort to violence, sexuality, and acumen in equal measure. Simultaneously, it would be interesting to see a muscular Number-Two Henchman either outsmart the protagonist to one degree or another; or even to see him finesse someone who found him attractive in order to achieve his goals.
@@stephenfitzgerald9769 for sure! I think that would be a fun subversion. I'd say that - in general - the henchman thing bothers me less personally because there are usually far more male characters in fantasy stories (with a few notable exceptions), so there is more opportunity to have a variety of personalities, etc. But the 'dumb jock' stereotype (which I think that would arguably fall into) is also reductive. I'd personally love a henchman who's nonviolent and shy or an interesting/unexpected hobby (knitting? painting? finance? raising pigeons?), but I don't think you see that too, too often. I think the henchman is usually like an NPC type of character, and the seductive female villainess is like a fantasy. (But those are obviously generalities, too.)
Great video! Though honestly, I think that Cliché#5 deserves a bit more nuance. I just finished _The Wheel of Time_ books last year and one thing that I loved about Robert Jordan’s villainesses (the female Forsaken, specifically) is that they would use *_ANY & EVERY_* tactic available to them: deceit, misdirection, traps, seduction, and brute force; everything was on the table. If they weren’t dæd or otherwise neutralized, the protagonists were in danger- full stop. Lanfear was probably the most dangerous one and her main weapon _was_ seduction. She could spam magic spells all day, but her bedroom eyes were her most dangerous weapon; because destroying Rand Al Thor morally and spiritually was more effective than hitting him with bale-fire.
I think it works in this case because you have so many female characters, and they have a wide variety of personalities and techniques. If she was the only woman in the story (or one of a handful), it would be vastly different.
@@zanzaboonda I’ll concede that point. Part of the reason why Lanfear’s use of seduction is so effective is for a very specific reason. And the other female Forsaken have such distinct personalities and methods that at points in the narrative it feels like they’re all picking and angle and working independently, saying, “we’re trying so many different things; one of us has to get ‘em!”
I actually have a fake ally character who has infiltrated the group of heroes. She's a femme fatale, but she's much more than that. Her lens are our only peek at the villain's plan and the true extent of his powers, and she seduces the protagonist because she falls in love with her. This makes her super interesting because she can now tilt the scales in favor of either side, and her mood and opinions are a huge source of conflict in the story.
You explained the clichés in question well! Definitely agree with your choice. Could we say that basically, it's about nuance? As you have shown, the same ideas can be used in completely different ways. As always an inspiring video! I am currently trying to plan around the last cliché in my game (leaning on TV Tropes to create good human villains). Would love to hear your opinions on the different relationships between main villain and their heavy.
"Could we say that basically, it's about nuance? As you have shown, the same ideas can be used in completely different ways. " Yes, we can 🙂Most things can be used to write a great story, in my opinion, it often comes down to the execution. And when a particular trope is badly executed over and over, I see it as a cliché that warrants even more care when used.
I have something fun planned when it comes to villainous monologues. My main villain is a cheerful, peppy social butterfly who wants to be best friends with every one of her allies. One of my main characters is going to temporarily turn against the other protagonists and join forces with this villain. When they do, the villain immediately latches on to her new "bestie." She'll gleefully try to tell this ex-hero her entire plan, her tragic backstory (which DID create her skewed moral compass and worldview), what she had for breakfast yesterday... But the ex-hero is having none of it. They don't want to know the villain's whole plan, because they know step one of the evil plan will give them what they need to escape the situation entirely. They'll constantly cut off this chatty villain, but while working for her, they'll learn what she's really up to and figure out why it's so important that she be stopped.
"My main villain is a cheerful, peppy social butterfly who wants to be best friends with every one of her allies." What makes her the villain then if she's so "nice"? 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer She's only like that with her allies, and those she sees as potential future allies. If you're not her ally, well, when she remakes the world, you're not gonna be in the new one. Hehe!
I might be guilty of clichés 3, 4 and 6. The BBEG of my story was abused by his parents, and that pain attracted a demon that corrupted him. He killed his parents, but his future mentor took him on as his apprentice (the mentor has his reasons). The BBEG got therapy, but due to outside forces that therapy didn't help much. The mentor's goal is to stop demons from invading the world, but his research into demonic nature was banned, so he looked for other alternatives. He planned to summon a demon to use its power, but his apprentice, the BBEG, went to stop him, but he was too late. That demon summoning ritual left both of their souls scarred and vulnerable to evil spirits. They both fell to evil, and set out to get revenge on those that had wronged them.
My "main" villain is basically cliche 1. Basically the goal is to revive the this primoridal being that if revived will probably destroy the world. The thing is however this only serves as the common goal for the organization to be grouped up together. When in reality they all have there own personal goals. The story starts out very simple. Since its about a guy who after the loss of his mother, became an emotionlees void and sets out on a journey/adventure to forge relationships and hopefully rekindle that emotion(that and just wanting to explore the enitre world) so having an organization with a common goal but also personal goals is a easy way to actually connect everything and get the MC involved with the main plot
This was actually good, I need to devise my fantasy series a set of really good dark lords... i will keep all of this in mind when i get to that bridge...
Killing the Messenger Cliche - every time the Villain gets bad news, the scene ends with the messenger being killed by him. I can understand killing a General who kept failing, but killing someone just updating him on current events is dumb and done just to show how 'evil' the Villain is.
Read a book once. It was horrible. It was like the author took their first draft and made that the book. It was 3/4ths back story. The hero's were reincarnated verisons of their past selves. So was the villain. The kicker, the villan, sees a painted mosaic of his past life. He gets all his memories back and decides to be evil (I read this book a decade ago, so not 100% accurate, but close). The point is, it's understandable using a copout reason for your villan at the start. But, after draft one. Expand on that. Because a hero is only as good as his villan.
An insightful video, and I agree with most of your points. However, I do have a disagreement with a point in your video. I agree that femme fatales can fall flat if done poorly, but a well-developed character with real motivations can subvert the trope. For example, my character Sky uses her intellect and survival instincts more than her sexuality to gain control. The chemistry and tension between her and Athren aren’t just about seduction-it’s a push-pull dynamic where both characters play a dangerous game and get burned. The key is to make her mind the real weapon while the allure adds layers to the tension. Their opposing viewpoints keep them apart, not her charm alone. The dynamic feels real and powerful when executed well, like Batman and Catwoman.
I don't think we're saying different things here actually 🙂I find femme fatales often fall into the cliché trap, yes, but I also do emphasize that they can be written in a captivating way. This is true for almost any mistake or cliché I can think of. It often comes down to the execution, so again yes, femme fatales can be great too 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment. I appreciate the advice you offer in your videos. Several of them have changed how I develop characters and the world I'm creating. I agree with you any cliché can work if executed well.
@@celestialtiger17 I hope my videos changed your characters for the better then 🙂Never forget, this is just my sharing my experience - there rarely is a definitive "right" or "wrong" when it comes to creative work 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer Oh, you have Two words that changed everything: "Cognitive Dissonance." While pairing it with dynamic dialog and subtext, my characters haven't been the same since. All for the better ;)
Another great video! Would you consider adding a 10-20 second outro sequence to your future vids? I'm usually so caught up in what you're saying that I don't realize it's near the end, and by the time I grab the remote to click on the one you link to, the video is done and I've missed my chance. Lol (I've seen most of your videos by now, but sometimes it's good to revisit them, especially in context with whatever we've just seen.)
Let me see if I cannot do something here in the future by rewording it slightly so that the video is shown a bit earlier. Will try to play around with that next month :-)
Was deff making the femme fatale mistake with one of my female characters... i've "finished" my first take of my first book. Taking a break to go back and edit with a fresh perspective... will probably make some changess to that character... thanks so much! ❤😂😂😂
It's always encouraging to hear when videos of mine actually help people. Just remember that this is just me sharing my experiences and insights though. Writing is a creative endeavor, and what defines a "great story" is often subjective. So take what resonates with you, and leave the rest :-)
currently been using one specific idea ( I guess its a trope, but not really) where you have 2 or more antagonists working together, but are basically different types of antagonists. the most common one I've seen is having the pure evil boss who is considered the "Main" villain, meanwhile you have the second antagonist be the more sympathetic one of the two, that or have them basically bounce off the main villain. this is just the most common one I've seen, but I'll list a few notable examples I've seen Jafar/Iago: Jafar's the serious and calculated one, meanwhile Iago is the more comedic side of Jafar, and is occasionally used to show Jafar's inner thoughts. Vader/Palpatine: an honestly unique case all things considered. in most cases, the "Big Bad" is usually considered cooler than their sidekick/ally, but in the case of these two, Vader is considered the cooler, more sympathetic one, while Palpatine is viewed as the more evil, but ultimately less serious one of the two. Madara/Obito/Pain: kinda wanted to add this here for the rule of three, but also the fact that it happens with more than two characters. Pain is a serious, sympathetic villain who gets contrasted by the bigger threat Obito, who starts as the goofy, unserious villain but later gets revealed to be serious & sympathetic as well, and later on gets contrasted by Madara, who (albeit is still sympathetic), is still considered a much bigger threat and considerably more evil & cruel. few other examples, albeit minor include: Magneto/Mystique, Sauron/Saruman, Joker/Harley, Yzma/Kronk, Jessie/James/Meowth, etc.
0:50 I love Drew Hayes's take on this in his "Villain's Code" series. "Everyone wants to take over the world until they see all the micro managing involved"
After watching this I realised how awful my villain was so im starting over mostly from scratch. Reading through my notes I found that even I think my own villain is boring. I reccently scrapped the entire 1st part of my plot because it was too cliche and the new plot is giving me better villain ideas. Also this video is great at telling me what not to do this time 😅
I'm glad to hear that you found some ideas via this video - but please don't take everything as "black and white" 🙂 This is just me sharing my experience and views. Not just that, almost every trope or chliché can be used in ways that serve an amazing story. I'm just trying to help people see certain pitfalls. You can avoid falling in by simply going around (=not using it at all), yes, but you can also avoid falling in by building a bridge, jumping over or ... (=using it in a conscious way that makes for a better story) 🙂
The best villain I have ever seen has been Emet selch. without spoiling anything in FFXIV. best way to describe him is that he IS a hero of his own story. heck there are points in Shadowbringers where i sat there wondering if what I doing as the character was right, and I as the character was trying to save the world. Thats how you know you have a fantastic villian.
on your first point why does the villian need to be relatable. I feel like at this point it's more cliche to write a villian whose just got twisted world views and is just misguided why can't a villian just he primordially evil
I could have been more accurate here, yes. I usually try to emphasize almost everywhere that certain things still can be done the exact opposite way, and still be great. That is true for "non-relatable" villains as well of course. Sometimes all you need is pure evil - no gray areas, yes 🙂
I disagree with most of the advice for the seductress. Sucubi are fun villains not problematic. Some tropes are old because they work. Ur advice on that boiled down to basically don't make women seductive. But throughout actual history plenty of women have used this art in their kit to do legendary things. Cleopatra for five. There were a lot of cleopatra's. I wouldn't say don't do it. Instead what if they use their intelligence to inform how they seduce or when? Making the female villain use such tactics not on everyone just when and where she deams them necessary. Some villains I've seen have said those men whom they tempted with such whiles were too easy. Game of thrones has a few of those.
In the TV show Cersei does not come off as a "seductress" in any way. Sure she may have married Robert to get close to the throne, but really it seems more like she had to marry someone to hide her relationship with her brother. Margaery Tyrell who does not appear to be a villain anyway, is introduced as the kind of woman who has what it takes to seduce Renly for his would be throne, and she does, not with her own body, but with one he's actually attracted to. She gives him what he wants. And realistically what he wants is not necessarily her. I'm actually kind of getting sick of seeing comments defending this cliche and leaning on Game of Thrones as an example. It seems to me this slanders quite a few of the female characters, and probably Ol' Double R as a writer.
@futurestoryteller Martin was a creepy so i do t care if i offend hit round the trope of using feminine whiles is fine as all tropes are if written well. In the end the only thing we must do is write the tale we wish to hear. If your story has a female seducer it's fine. As long as she isn't only that. Don't let her be boiled down to one trait. Seduction may be her method of attack but it doesn't have to be all she has in her arsenal. Azula for example uses seduction on May, Tai'Lee, and Zuko at different points in the atla story. But she does it as you described by offering something that would seduce these characters which is thankfully not her body. This is a kids show after all and doesn't need tbe incest in zukos case. This is also not an invitation to discuss the pros and cons of lesbians in kids media. For any such conversation will not be constructive here no matter if you agree with it or not. The point is that seduction can be used differently by different characters. Advice for writing a seductive character male or female shouldn't boil down too "DON'T" rather all writing advice should be pointed to methods which help us to write the stories we want to hear. If I was writing a historical fiction about cleopatra I wouldn't not write her using seduction. To do so would be inaccurate. Also some of us find this character fun. And no not in a pervy way before you use that kind of slander. Lastly ur points about cersie relying on the books mean little when we are discussing GOT not SIF
Is it okay if the villain and the MC have the same goal then? (in context for my wip, the mc and the villain are the same person, with the same goal, since the villain is like the older version of the mc)
Interesting concept! It raises the question - are they truly the same person, or more of a dark mirror/parallel? The distinction matters because it affects the core conflict. If they're literally the same person (time travel), the story becomes about choices and corruption over time. If they're more of a parallel or "like" the older version, it's about how similar starting points can lead to vastly different outcomes. Either way, having antagonist and protagonist share the same goal but differ in methods creates great tension. Just be clear about which relationship you're exploring, as it'll shape your character arcs differently :-)
I’d say my villain isn’t too bad, he’s just a guy who lost at building an empire and ultimately went into a crash out that ended up with consequences that cannot be reversed, at least in the way it was before. He murdered his wife and best friend catching them in the same place at night with their sleepwear on, Lorenzo my main villain was stuck and soaking in all that happened within a week, his life is really over. Then from the shadows emerges Van Dracula the ever watchful, giving him a second chance at a life with a new goals and aspirations. He was granted a rebirth along with those who he killed, but none of them can return to their old lives. Lorenzo ends up having to imprison his best friend due to his hostility, and his wife unhappy with her life decides to jump off a cliff, ending her life.
@@TheTaleTinkerer in a way it’s feels like punishment of guilt for each one of them, Lorenzo feels guilt for the life he lives now with his friend imprisoned and his ex wife dead, Dante (the friend) feels guilt for betraying his friend but also for introducing Adelina (the wife) to Lorenzo, leading to her heart break and death, Adelina has unfortunately undergone a fate worse than both being driven to jumping off a cliff and having her body embraced by a god of death to get back at Van Dracula over some beef, but yeah it goes deeper as the story progresses.
@@TheTaleTinkerer yeah I like it too, it’s not a big impactful triangle to the story, in fact they aren’t the main cast of characters expect Lorenzo, it’s just some chemistry with the ‘evil side’ to create some interesting tension. This takes place decades before the real story begins, I love it, having a blast writing all emotional, happy, sad, chaotic scenes.
Tartarus is a monster both in action and appearance (noxar). Nyra starts out as a slave gets abducted and learns to live among the noxar. She is naive and wants to do good. Once Tartarus accepts her help as a diplomat she is faced with a choice. Nyra could ban slavery and order the destruction of all hybrids (machine and humans fused together). That would be a noble cause but the people can’t just give them up. They are a necessity for everyone’s every day life. For the leaders of the planet she is the villain who destroys their society and refuse, going as far as to plan an assassination. Tartarus cares little for the planets leader’s motivations and slaughters them one by one in a gruesome display. The planets leaders wouldn’t get nyras and Tartarus support they needed to save their planet. With the deadly infection having spread to far Tartarus starts to exterminate all to at least keep the planet habitable for future colonists but kills all the humans and a lot of wildlife in the process. I believe to write a truly captivating villain one must follow this principle: “the path to hell is pathed with good intentions”
Okay, so in real life, tragedy alone does not undermine a person's morality. Usually, it's seeing others commit awful acts, which normalises them. Just, as prejudice and self-righteousness alone won't trigger evil alone. An example of a real life person who turned out messed up with a sad childhood was Irma Grese. She was known as the Hyena of Auschwitz and was one of the most sadistic snd cruel guards. Her father was abusive, but also not fully on board with Nazism. Also, his infidelity pushed his wife to suicide. Irma was also severely bullied as a child and teenager, to the point she was forced to drop out. Now, she wanted to fit in, to make friends, to get away from her abusive father...The place that offered that, for her was the Hitler Youth. Then, she tried to study to be a nurse, but couldn't manage, so she took a job as a guard of a concentration camp. At first, she was know with the guards and prisoners for her kindness, but as she spent more time in this setting, she became so sadistic and twisted that even many other guards were disturbed. On top of her extreme perversity, she would also show random acts of compassion, like to one woman who looked like her sister (whom she adored).
This reminds me of Princess Weekes saying bullies are not bullied they're raised by bullies. And I thought "Hmm... I wonder what a person raised by a bully experiences?" Not only was her assertion presented without evidence, in a form that seemed to imply mutual exclusivity where it didn't exist, to the extent her claim was coherent, real evidence exists to the contrary. Bullies are often victims of bullying. Her audience dogpiled me to say abusive parents don't have to take the abuse out on the child. It can be the mother, another child, or someone else. As if abusing anyone in front of your children does not constitute child abuse. They seemed scared by the prospect of sympathizing with toxic people, even from before they developed toxic behaviors, and wished to regard them as "too far gone" but couldn't picture the driving force that put them there as motivated in any way by personal trauma, because that would be "victim blaming." It's just "born evil" with extra steps. A person's "normalized" experience with malice can be the receiving end, just as a person can be horrified by it from a distance, or even as a participant, even in a society where it is normal. People are complex. I don't see any reason we need to pretend to invent some kind of special sauce to explain evil.
How about the Cult of Spite is determined to free humanity from the yoke of elven rule unaware the elves want them to eliminate the remaining elves within their homeland as thats the only thing standing between them and wiping out humanity altogether!
Problem is, these all become clichéd tropes once overused as has already happened, with the girlboss villain and the tragic backstory villain. They're boring, so most advice in this video is advice due Huw to create a generic boring modern villain like 10.000.000 other villains because every fantasy writer follows these tropes in the attempt to avoid the previous tropes, so it's hard to call it good advice because ndny of these things bake the villain utterly forgettable because everyone is doing it.
Hahaha these cliches can be found in all the greatest villains in fantasy fiction. I may have missed the message but I think ppl need to find new ways to put the cliches into their worlds. Break the cliches in parts
They're not "bad" just overused ideas poorly excecuted. A good cliché or trope is what it is for a reason: it's understandble/relatable. Unfortunately, they are also overused "badly" hence this video. Hope this helped👍
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Would you be willing to give me some feed back on my story?
@@jukeboxmimic6954 I appreciate the interest but the time needed to properly read and analyze the story of others isn't something I can offer at this moment.
Done right, this requires serious effort and I don't provide any "beta read / editing" services at the moment that could cover this.
This might change in the future though 🙂
The monologuing thing is why I love the Incredibles, Watchmen and Age of Ultron so much. Mr. Incredible uses it against Syndrome, Ozymandias enacted his plan thirty minutes before the heroes arrived and only monologued after, and Ultron has that “oh, here’s the part where I was going to explain my evil plan” and then cuts himself off by starting the fight
"I'm not a comicbook villain" *insert mewing/gigachad supercut*
My least favorite Villain cliché: Killing subordinates for minor mistakes.
It just breed internal rebellion, and there are other punishments that could be more effective in order to intimidate the minions, like reducing salary or taking away a promotion.
Not necessarily. It depends on the context. If I'm a stormtrooper, I'm going to be happy to get promoted because Darth Vader killed my CO. If everyone is pursuing power, backstabbing is going to be part of it.
@@epis8613Yup, context is king!
That would have been a good one as well, yes - good addition 🙂At least in certain situations, this is somewhat of a cliché. It can work very well though - as most things.
Agreed. Saw this on Marco Polo and DNFed right away.
I feel like that cliche works for certain types of villians but is still overused. A villian that is supposed to smart and clever wouldn’t do that. Now one with a temper issue or The enforcer of the main villian that could pass as the main villain now that’s different. Yes I just described Vader in that.
“Real life villains are not cartoonishly evil”.
Well, read about Idi Amin Dada, Pol Pot, Francisco Macias Nguema, Nicolas Maduro, Jean Bedel Bokassa, Rafael Leonidas Trujillo and anything about the last rulers of Turkmenistan. Maybe you will rethink that phrase…
Nicolas Maduro abolished a system in which privately owned companies suff their pockets with the money earned by exploiting his nation's resources and replaced it with the one that uses the same money for the common good of his people and the betterment of the society.
Then the bourgeoisie put embargo on him and now the resources are just sitting around and the whole system went bankrupt. Ofc they wont just let a nation liberate themselves and have their happy ever after. Incentivizing the people to free themselves from exploitation is bad for the exploitor's profit.
If anyone is cartoonishly evil in that situation it's the capitalist neocolonial system.
You have some...interesting omissions...
succesful real life villians arent
What the Belgians did in Africa was cartoonishly evil.
I think a little "cartoon-ish" villains might be what stories need nowadays. Too often do we have antagonist with deep back stories that are designed to make the reader/viewer sympathize. It's honestly getting overplayed, and has muddied the morality pool to the point modern fictional villains are just misunderstood and not purely evil or having malicious intent or behavior. Let villains be villainous again without all the ambiguity.
Is that what i want
Azrael villain of a drama novel is a "nazist"
His past is not tragic is horrorful : he kill his mother and his little sister
His ideology is simple: he believe in the laws of evolution
"The life of your species is meaningless"
"Being killed by me is the life's purpose"
The advice is simply that their motives should be logical, but not exactly valid. (In case anyone is confused, yes there is a difference.) The probelm with simplistic villains is they're boring. You know exactly what they're going to do, and you know they will have no actual reason for doing it. Just imagine writing the story from your villain's point of view. How tedious would it get?
2:16 "his _entire_ backstory" 😂 the word 'entire' came out so weary, then chased with "even his wifi password" I choked on my coffee.
Glad to hear that some of the attempted lightheartedness in the video actually is noticable 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer ♥️ your content. I'm a better writer because of it.
@@holly_gmTwb Really appreciate those supportive words, thank you for that 🙂
Reminder that tropes are tropes for a reason, because they have been used to great effect in many a story. But you need to understand why they work to use them effectively. Poorly used tropes become cliches.
That's why I like the "trope talk" videos from Overly Sarcastic Productions here on UA-cam. Recommend you check them out if you have never heard of them.
i really admire and appreciate the consistency on the uploading and doing the community posts. that commitment and passion does not go unnoticed
Thank you for the supportive words, really appreciate it 🙂
The villain in my story is secretly a dragon that views humanity as his possessions and play things. Is very possessive, and he shape-shifted into the form of a powerful human to rule as an emperor for centuries.
I agree almost all of them. With the exception of cliché 5. A manipulative women who has the self-confidence to use her femininity [and attractiveness] as weapon is scary as hell. Personally, I find them even more scary, than smart women. Not to mention, smart people use everything they have in their disposal [including their beauty].
Honestly, seduction should be to a villainess’s toolkit what diplomacy is to a Lannister’s… “a very effective weapon, but by no means the only one; nor even the most effective in all circumstances.”
Exactly...
The problem comes in when their 'femininity' is reductive. Usually it's presented not as something they have the confidence to do but something they do due to a lack of confidence. Resorting to this is kind of a cheap shot used when you can't win another way. (Is she not smart enough?) Or it's a just a sexual fantasy of sorts from the author. When done well, it can actually be very fun, exciting, and even surprising. But that's not typically how you see it used. Making this their sole or primary tactic is just silly if she doesn't have any other depth to her.
@@zanzaboonda agreed- especially on the point of the character serving as ‘wish-fulfillment’ for the author.
Conversely, could one then argue that this kind of reduction of a villainess to her sexuality is akin to reducing a bulky ‘Right-hand Man’ henchman archetype to his physicality? If so, then I agree completely on both accounts. I like to see female characters who can resort to violence, sexuality, and acumen in equal measure. Simultaneously, it would be interesting to see a muscular Number-Two Henchman either outsmart the protagonist to one degree or another; or even to see him finesse someone who found him attractive in order to achieve his goals.
@@stephenfitzgerald9769 for sure! I think that would be a fun subversion. I'd say that - in general - the henchman thing bothers me less personally because there are usually far more male characters in fantasy stories (with a few notable exceptions), so there is more opportunity to have a variety of personalities, etc. But the 'dumb jock' stereotype (which I think that would arguably fall into) is also reductive. I'd personally love a henchman who's nonviolent and shy or an interesting/unexpected hobby (knitting? painting? finance? raising pigeons?), but I don't think you see that too, too often. I think the henchman is usually like an NPC type of character, and the seductive female villainess is like a fantasy. (But those are obviously generalities, too.)
Great video! Though honestly, I think that Cliché#5 deserves a bit more nuance. I just finished _The Wheel of Time_ books last year and one thing that I loved about Robert Jordan’s villainesses (the female Forsaken, specifically) is that they would use *_ANY & EVERY_* tactic available to them: deceit, misdirection, traps, seduction, and brute force; everything was on the table. If they weren’t dæd or otherwise neutralized, the protagonists were in danger- full stop.
Lanfear was probably the most dangerous one and her main weapon _was_ seduction. She could spam magic spells all day, but her bedroom eyes were her most dangerous weapon; because destroying Rand Al Thor morally and spiritually was more effective than hitting him with bale-fire.
I think it works in this case because you have so many female characters, and they have a wide variety of personalities and techniques. If she was the only woman in the story (or one of a handful), it would be vastly different.
@@zanzaboonda I’ll concede that point. Part of the reason why Lanfear’s use of seduction is so effective is for a very specific reason. And the other female Forsaken have such distinct personalities and methods that at points in the narrative it feels like they’re all picking and angle and working independently, saying, “we’re trying so many different things; one of us has to get ‘em!”
I actually have a fake ally character who has infiltrated the group of heroes. She's a femme fatale, but she's much more than that. Her lens are our only peek at the villain's plan and the true extent of his powers, and she seduces the protagonist because she falls in love with her. This makes her super interesting because she can now tilt the scales in favor of either side, and her mood and opinions are a huge source of conflict in the story.
Sounds like the makings of a great idea.
Kinda sounds cliché actually
So cliche 7 with a twist.
Great idea, Gabriel.
Love your channel. Great insightful content. Thanks! Liked and subscribed. 👍🏼
Thank you for the support and for taking the time to leave those kind words - really appreciate it 🙂
You explained the clichés in question well! Definitely agree with your choice.
Could we say that basically, it's about nuance? As you have shown, the same ideas can be used in completely different ways.
As always an inspiring video! I am currently trying to plan around the last cliché in my game (leaning on TV Tropes to create good human villains). Would love to hear your opinions on the different relationships between main villain and their heavy.
"Could we say that basically, it's about nuance? As you have shown, the same ideas can be used in completely different ways. "
Yes, we can 🙂Most things can be used to write a great story, in my opinion, it often comes down to the execution.
And when a particular trope is badly executed over and over, I see it as a cliché that warrants even more care when used.
In terms of lesser villains who are more complicated than the main one, it worked okay in Star Wars.
Overshadowing the main villain? Lol, Kaguya appearing and taking over Madara.
I have something fun planned when it comes to villainous monologues. My main villain is a cheerful, peppy social butterfly who wants to be best friends with every one of her allies. One of my main characters is going to temporarily turn against the other protagonists and join forces with this villain. When they do, the villain immediately latches on to her new "bestie." She'll gleefully try to tell this ex-hero her entire plan, her tragic backstory (which DID create her skewed moral compass and worldview), what she had for breakfast yesterday... But the ex-hero is having none of it. They don't want to know the villain's whole plan, because they know step one of the evil plan will give them what they need to escape the situation entirely. They'll constantly cut off this chatty villain, but while working for her, they'll learn what she's really up to and figure out why it's so important that she be stopped.
"My main villain is a cheerful, peppy social butterfly who wants to be best friends with every one of her allies."
What makes her the villain then if she's so "nice"? 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer She's only like that with her allies, and those she sees as potential future allies. If you're not her ally, well, when she remakes the world, you're not gonna be in the new one. Hehe!
@@kiwilemontea4622 Got it 😀
I might be guilty of clichés 3, 4 and 6.
The BBEG of my story was abused by his parents, and that pain attracted a demon that corrupted him. He killed his parents, but his future mentor took him on as his apprentice (the mentor has his reasons).
The BBEG got therapy, but due to outside forces that therapy didn't help much.
The mentor's goal is to stop demons from invading the world, but his research into demonic nature was banned, so he looked for other alternatives. He planned to summon a demon to use its power, but his apprentice, the BBEG, went to stop him, but he was too late. That demon summoning ritual left both of their souls scarred and vulnerable to evil spirits. They both fell to evil, and set out to get revenge on those that had wronged them.
My "main" villain is basically cliche 1. Basically the goal is to revive the this primoridal being that if revived will probably destroy the world. The thing is however this only serves as the common goal for the organization to be grouped up together. When in reality they all have there own personal goals. The story starts out very simple. Since its about a guy who after the loss of his mother, became an emotionlees void and sets out on a journey/adventure to forge relationships and hopefully rekindle that emotion(that and just wanting to explore the enitre world) so having an organization with a common goal but also personal goals is a easy way to actually connect everything and get the MC involved with the main plot
Thanks for giving tips about characters, including antagonists.
This was actually good, I need to devise my fantasy series a set of really good dark lords... i will keep all of this in mind when i get to that bridge...
Killing the Messenger Cliche - every time the Villain gets bad news, the scene ends with the messenger being killed by him.
I can understand killing a General who kept failing, but killing someone just updating him on current events is dumb and done just to show how 'evil' the Villain is.
Read a book once. It was horrible. It was like the author took their first draft and made that the book. It was 3/4ths back story.
The hero's were reincarnated verisons of their past selves. So was the villain.
The kicker, the villan, sees a painted mosaic of his past life. He gets all his memories back and decides to be evil (I read this book a decade ago, so not 100% accurate, but close).
The point is, it's understandable using a copout reason for your villan at the start. But, after draft one. Expand on that.
Because a hero is only as good as his villan.
An insightful video, and I agree with most of your points. However, I do have a disagreement with a point in your video.
I agree that femme fatales can fall flat if done poorly, but a well-developed character with real motivations can subvert the trope. For example, my character Sky uses her intellect and survival instincts more than her sexuality to gain control. The chemistry and tension between her and Athren aren’t just about seduction-it’s a push-pull dynamic where both characters play a dangerous game and get burned. The key is to make her mind the real weapon while the allure adds layers to the tension. Their opposing viewpoints keep them apart, not her charm alone. The dynamic feels real and powerful when executed well, like Batman and Catwoman.
I don't think we're saying different things here actually 🙂I find femme fatales often fall into the cliché trap, yes, but I also do emphasize that they can be written in a captivating way.
This is true for almost any mistake or cliché I can think of. It often comes down to the execution, so again yes, femme fatales can be great too 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment. I appreciate the advice you offer in your videos. Several of them have changed how I develop characters and the world I'm creating. I agree with you any cliché can work if executed well.
@@celestialtiger17 I hope my videos changed your characters for the better then 🙂Never forget, this is just my sharing my experience - there rarely is a definitive "right" or "wrong" when it comes to creative work 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer Oh, you have Two words that changed everything: "Cognitive Dissonance." While pairing it with dynamic dialog and subtext, my characters haven't been the same since. All for the better ;)
@@celestialtiger17 Glad to hear that 🙂
Another great video! Would you consider adding a 10-20 second outro sequence to your future vids? I'm usually so caught up in what you're saying that I don't realize it's near the end, and by the time I grab the remote to click on the one you link to, the video is done and I've missed my chance. Lol (I've seen most of your videos by now, but sometimes it's good to revisit them, especially in context with whatever we've just seen.)
Let me see if I cannot do something here in the future by rewording it slightly so that the video is shown a bit earlier. Will try to play around with that next month :-)
@@TheTaleTinkerer Haha thanks! 😊
Relevant and Supportive Comment to feed the Algorangim
To be fair, in the middle ages, the period of time that most fantasy tries to loosely emulate, therapy really kind of didnt exist
But pancakes did!
in a comic i make the main villain seems cartoonishly evil but his story ( which i already made out but wont spoil) shows how he changed
Was deff making the femme fatale mistake with one of my female characters... i've "finished" my first take of my first book. Taking a break to go back and edit with a fresh perspective... will probably make some changess to that character... thanks so much! ❤😂😂😂
It's always encouraging to hear when videos of mine actually help people. Just remember that this is just me sharing my experiences and insights though. Writing is a creative endeavor, and what defines a "great story" is often subjective. So take what resonates with you, and leave the rest :-)
currently been using one specific idea ( I guess its a trope, but not really) where you have 2 or more antagonists working together, but are basically different types of antagonists. the most common one I've seen is having the pure evil boss who is considered the "Main" villain, meanwhile you have the second antagonist be the more sympathetic one of the two, that or have them basically bounce off the main villain. this is just the most common one I've seen, but I'll list a few notable examples I've seen
Jafar/Iago: Jafar's the serious and calculated one, meanwhile Iago is the more comedic side of Jafar, and is occasionally used to show Jafar's inner thoughts.
Vader/Palpatine: an honestly unique case all things considered. in most cases, the "Big Bad" is usually considered cooler than their sidekick/ally, but in the case of these two, Vader is considered the cooler, more sympathetic one, while Palpatine is viewed as the more evil, but ultimately less serious one of the two.
Madara/Obito/Pain: kinda wanted to add this here for the rule of three, but also the fact that it happens with more than two characters. Pain is a serious, sympathetic villain who gets contrasted by the bigger threat Obito, who starts as the goofy, unserious villain but later gets revealed to be serious & sympathetic as well, and later on gets contrasted by Madara, who (albeit is still sympathetic), is still considered a much bigger threat and considerably more evil & cruel.
few other examples, albeit minor include: Magneto/Mystique, Sauron/Saruman, Joker/Harley, Yzma/Kronk, Jessie/James/Meowth, etc.
0:50 I love Drew Hayes's take on this in his "Villain's Code" series. "Everyone wants to take over the world until they see all the micro managing involved"
Imagine a villain buying all the farmland.
Are you writing a story about Bill Gates?
After watching this I realised how awful my villain was so im starting over mostly from scratch. Reading through my notes I found that even I think my own villain is boring. I reccently scrapped the entire 1st part of my plot because it was too cliche and the new plot is giving me better villain ideas. Also this video is great at telling me what not to do this time 😅
I'm glad to hear that you found some ideas via this video - but please don't take everything as "black and white" 🙂
This is just me sharing my experience and views. Not just that, almost every trope or chliché can be used in ways that serve an amazing story.
I'm just trying to help people see certain pitfalls. You can avoid falling in by simply going around (=not using it at all), yes, but you can also avoid falling in by building a bridge, jumping over or ... (=using it in a conscious way that makes for a better story) 🙂
dangit Kareem at it again
All my homies hate kareem
1:04 I don't know, real world villains and dictators are quite cartoonish in their motivations
The best villain I have ever seen has been Emet selch. without spoiling anything in FFXIV. best way to describe him is that he IS a hero of his own story. heck there are points in Shadowbringers where i sat there wondering if what I doing as the character was right, and I as the character was trying to save the world. Thats how you know you have a fantastic villian.
on your first point why does the villian need to be relatable. I feel like at this point it's more cliche to write a villian whose just got twisted world views and is just misguided why can't a villian just he primordially evil
I could have been more accurate here, yes. I usually try to emphasize almost everywhere that certain things still can be done the exact opposite way, and still be great.
That is true for "non-relatable" villains as well of course. Sometimes all you need is pure evil - no gray areas, yes 🙂
I disagree with most of the advice for the seductress. Sucubi are fun villains not problematic. Some tropes are old because they work. Ur advice on that boiled down to basically don't make women seductive. But throughout actual history plenty of women have used this art in their kit to do legendary things. Cleopatra for five. There were a lot of cleopatra's. I wouldn't say don't do it. Instead what if they use their intelligence to inform how they seduce or when? Making the female villain use such tactics not on everyone just when and where she deams them necessary. Some villains I've seen have said those men whom they tempted with such whiles were too easy. Game of thrones has a few of those.
In the TV show Cersei does not come off as a "seductress" in any way. Sure she may have married Robert to get close to the throne, but really it seems more like she had to marry someone to hide her relationship with her brother. Margaery Tyrell who does not appear to be a villain anyway, is introduced as the kind of woman who has what it takes to seduce Renly for his would be throne, and she does, not with her own body, but with one he's actually attracted to. She gives him what he wants. And realistically what he wants is not necessarily her. I'm actually kind of getting sick of seeing comments defending this cliche and leaning on Game of Thrones as an example. It seems to me this slanders quite a few of the female characters, and probably Ol' Double R as a writer.
@futurestoryteller Martin was a creepy so i do t care if i offend hit round the trope of using feminine whiles is fine as all tropes are if written well. In the end the only thing we must do is write the tale we wish to hear. If your story has a female seducer it's fine. As long as she isn't only that. Don't let her be boiled down to one trait. Seduction may be her method of attack but it doesn't have to be all she has in her arsenal. Azula for example uses seduction on May, Tai'Lee, and Zuko at different points in the atla story. But she does it as you described by offering something that would seduce these characters which is thankfully not her body. This is a kids show after all and doesn't need tbe incest in zukos case. This is also not an invitation to discuss the pros and cons of lesbians in kids media. For any such conversation will not be constructive here no matter if you agree with it or not. The point is that seduction can be used differently by different characters. Advice for writing a seductive character male or female shouldn't boil down too "DON'T" rather all writing advice should be pointed to methods which help us to write the stories we want to hear. If I was writing a historical fiction about cleopatra I wouldn't not write her using seduction. To do so would be inaccurate. Also some of us find this character fun. And no not in a pervy way before you use that kind of slander.
Lastly ur points about cersie relying on the books mean little when we are discussing GOT not SIF
@@scroletyper8286 I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
@futurestoryteller then I won't waist my breath
Not his WiFi password!
Is it okay if the villain and the MC have the same goal then? (in context for my wip, the mc and the villain are the same person, with the same goal, since the villain is like the older version of the mc)
Interesting concept! It raises the question - are they truly the same person, or more of a dark mirror/parallel? The distinction matters because it affects the core conflict. If they're literally the same person (time travel), the story becomes about choices and corruption over time. If they're more of a parallel or "like" the older version, it's about how similar starting points can lead to vastly different outcomes.
Either way, having antagonist and protagonist share the same goal but differ in methods creates great tension. Just be clear about which relationship you're exploring, as it'll shape your character arcs differently :-)
I’d say my villain isn’t too bad, he’s just a guy who lost at building an empire and ultimately went into a crash out that ended up with consequences that cannot be reversed, at least in the way it was before. He murdered his wife and best friend catching them in the same place at night with their sleepwear on, Lorenzo my main villain was stuck and soaking in all that happened within a week, his life is really over. Then from the shadows emerges Van Dracula the ever watchful, giving him a second chance at a life with a new goals and aspirations. He was granted a rebirth along with those who he killed, but none of them can return to their old lives. Lorenzo ends up having to imprison his best friend due to his hostility, and his wife unhappy with her life decides to jump off a cliff, ending her life.
Are the somewhat sad lives of the friend and the wife after their rebirth a punishment for an actual transgression together in the first life? 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer in a way it’s feels like punishment of guilt for each one of them, Lorenzo feels guilt for the life he lives now with his friend imprisoned and his ex wife dead, Dante (the friend) feels guilt for betraying his friend but also for introducing Adelina (the wife) to Lorenzo, leading to her heart break and death, Adelina has unfortunately undergone a fate worse than both being driven to jumping off a cliff and having her body embraced by a god of death to get back at Van Dracula over some beef, but yeah it goes deeper as the story progresses.
@@jahredcr916 Appreciate the deeper insights. That's quite a triangle you've constructed there with Van Dracula messing around in it 🙂
@@TheTaleTinkerer yeah I like it too, it’s not a big impactful triangle to the story, in fact they aren’t the main cast of characters expect Lorenzo, it’s just some chemistry with the ‘evil side’ to create some interesting tension. This takes place decades before the real story begins, I love it, having a blast writing all emotional, happy, sad, chaotic scenes.
Tartarus is a monster both in action and appearance (noxar). Nyra starts out as a slave gets abducted and learns to live among the noxar. She is naive and wants to do good. Once Tartarus accepts her help as a diplomat she is faced with a choice. Nyra could ban slavery and order the destruction of all hybrids (machine and humans fused together). That would be a noble cause but the people can’t just give them up. They are a necessity for everyone’s every day life. For the leaders of the planet she is the villain who destroys their society and refuse, going as far as to plan an assassination. Tartarus cares little for the planets leader’s motivations and slaughters them one by one in a gruesome display.
The planets leaders wouldn’t get nyras and Tartarus support they needed to save their planet. With the deadly infection having spread to far Tartarus starts to exterminate all to at least keep the planet habitable for future colonists but kills all the humans and a lot of wildlife in the process.
I believe to write a truly captivating villain one must follow this principle: “the path to hell is pathed with good intentions”
Okay, so in real life, tragedy alone does not undermine a person's morality. Usually, it's seeing others commit awful acts, which normalises them. Just, as prejudice and self-righteousness alone won't trigger evil alone. An example of a real life person who turned out messed up with a sad childhood was Irma Grese. She was known as the Hyena of Auschwitz and was one of the most sadistic snd cruel guards. Her father was abusive, but also not fully on board with Nazism. Also, his infidelity pushed his wife to suicide. Irma was also severely bullied as a child and teenager, to the point she was forced to drop out. Now, she wanted to fit in, to make friends, to get away from her abusive father...The place that offered that, for her was the Hitler Youth. Then, she tried to study to be a nurse, but couldn't manage, so she took a job as a guard of a concentration camp. At first, she was know with the guards and prisoners for her kindness, but as she spent more time in this setting, she became so sadistic and twisted that even many other guards were disturbed. On top of her extreme perversity, she would also show random acts of compassion, like to one woman who looked like her sister (whom she adored).
This reminds me of Princess Weekes saying bullies are not bullied they're raised by bullies. And I thought "Hmm... I wonder what a person raised by a bully experiences?" Not only was her assertion presented without evidence, in a form that seemed to imply mutual exclusivity where it didn't exist, to the extent her claim was coherent, real evidence exists to the contrary. Bullies are often victims of bullying. Her audience dogpiled me to say abusive parents don't have to take the abuse out on the child. It can be the mother, another child, or someone else. As if abusing anyone in front of your children does not constitute child abuse. They seemed scared by the prospect of sympathizing with toxic people, even from before they developed toxic behaviors, and wished to regard them as "too far gone" but couldn't picture the driving force that put them there as motivated in any way by personal trauma, because that would be "victim blaming." It's just "born evil" with extra steps.
A person's "normalized" experience with malice can be the receiving end, just as a person can be horrified by it from a distance, or even as a participant, even in a society where it is normal.
People are complex. I don't see any reason we need to pretend to invent some kind of special sauce to explain evil.
How about the Cult of Spite is determined to free humanity from the yoke of elven rule unaware the elves want them to eliminate the remaining elves within their homeland as thats the only thing standing between them and wiping out humanity altogether!
Problem is, these all become clichéd tropes once overused as has already happened, with the girlboss villain and the tragic backstory villain. They're boring, so most advice in this video is advice due Huw to create a generic boring modern villain like 10.000.000 other villains because every fantasy writer follows these tropes in the attempt to avoid the previous tropes, so it's hard to call it good advice because ndny of these things bake the villain utterly forgettable because everyone is doing it.
Hahaha these cliches can be found in all the greatest villains in fantasy fiction. I may have missed the message but I think ppl need to find new ways to put the cliches into their worlds. Break the cliches in parts
Why do people say "Cliches" and "Tropes" like they're bad things?
Anyway, not subscribing.
They're not "bad" just overused ideas poorly excecuted. A good cliché or trope is what it is for a reason: it's understandble/relatable. Unfortunately, they are also overused "badly" hence this video. Hope this helped👍
Did you even watch the video?
Cliches are bad though, it's just relative to how over-used they are.