Wonder how the Czech Tank would go on that Assetto Corsa stage? I've got that covered too in this unlisted video: ua-cam.com/video/KYHI3gdui7s/v-deo.html
The only way anyone can understand the 1980's is to actually lived through it. It was all the power with none of the refinement. All the speed with the real threat of being stuck in wreckage with a high risk of fire and relying on spotters through out the stage to radio for help if you don't come past. All the best materials that hadn't given anyone the big C yet. All the great sponsors whose products reduced your life span. None of the driver aids. None of the over the top safety/conditions stoppages. Most importantly though no arse holes casting judgment based on 5 min youtube video from the pro nouned safe space. You see if you wanted to watch them or even get more information that TV highlights you had to leave your house. The early 90's saw the overlords start to catch up with technical and safety regulations. The mid/late 90's saw management systems improve dramatically which when coupled with the new data acquisition ended the era of genuine talent being an edge. Group B, F1 and Group C sports cars is more about the drivers and how life was. So as the majority of you prove the Dunning-Kruger effect correct whilst using other peoples footage to tell everyone how it was or watch said video to grace the internet with a complete lack of understanding about the topic just remember what 3/4 of the world did over the past few years. As for the uploader of this you've never got a topic right yet. You really should drop the "s" from your handle.
You can't go "all out" with Group B cars, those death machines were hard to drive. You can't utilize all 500+ horses they have because you're struggling to keep the car in control.
The reason you don't hear modern rally drivers complaining about their cars going too fast is because they do not use 1980s differentials, suspensions, tires, etc.
I also suspect that driver fatigue had a lot to do with the drivers comments. The stages were longer in the group B era and the drivers were not well protected from all the heat and fumes coming from the engine they were sharing a cockpit with. Trying to hang onto a rowdy 500hp sled on 80's running gear while getting cooked and gassed is going to affect your mental capacity the longer you have to do it. I believe a lot of the suspicion around Toivonen's death was that he fainted at the wheel because he was exhausted and dehydrated due to illness and the brutal conditions in the car
@@DjDolHaus86 That to me is the real difference back then, back then they were actual point-to-point rallies, not selections of dirt roads ran twice in both directions. I know it's not really the organizers' fault in most cases why things have changed, and it is definitely better for spectators, I just think it's not even remotely the same kind of spectacle.
@@DjDolHaus86That’s plausible, I believe that he blacked out due to his crash in 85. He broke vertebrae’s and told people close to him that he’d black out from time to time but not the Lancia Team because he didn’t want to stop racing. That combined with the longevity of the stages and with how he was sick made it so much worse
I think that the biggest thing group B actually has over modern rally is the aesthetics. The cars looked... I don't even want to say "better," but they were more unique looking. Today's rally cars suffer a cookie cutter appearance, not through any fault of rally, but because of the cars they're based on. And that's honestly it. Well. Also, there's no 5-cylinders making glorious noises, but that's fine, I can make them myself, I have a Volvo.
To be fair though, Group B had the same problem. By 1985 all the actually good cars kinda looked the same. I love the Lancia Delta, Renault 5, Peugeot 205, MG Metro etc., but there's only so much you can do with the concept of "short wheelbase, insane aero hatchback with a mid-engine layout". I reckon people 40 years from now will look at a Hyundai i20 N Rally1 or Toyota GR Yaris Rally1 the same way we look at a Lancia Delta S4 or a Peugeot 205 T16.
@@Tepid24 It's funny that last sentence, I feel like I read similar reactions to the initial Rally1 thing. I remember remarks of "yo this new spec sure reminds me of Group B..."
biggest problem with modern cars , it might be nostalgia carrying it but in my and clearly alot of outhers oppinions cars of that era just looked the best across the board ,you see the same issue with the initial d sequel series its not like bad but it uses modern cars which makes it far less entertaining or intresting to watch than the original show (which lets be real was heavily carried by the cars looking cool as much as i love that show i cant ever say its a objectivly good one )
This situation reminds me a whole lot of the 787B. It’s great that the car won, and that it was the first Japanese car to win at lemans. And it sounds wonderful sure. And I love the Renown livery as much as the next guy. But as soon as people started insinuating that the reasoning for rotary powered cars being banned was somehow due to the dominant performance of a car that only had one podium finish in its career is insane to me.
It's funny how the sport 3.5L cars of the time were somehow less reliable than a regular group C car with a Wankel engine made to produce up to 700 HP.
@@Oscar97o the reliability and longevity is definitely impressive and sorta ironic. But if the Mercedes didn’t have issues (crashing out, mechanical faults) there’s no doubt those cars were faster
I’ll say it, the Mazda 787 is one of the most overrated race cars that won one major race event. It looks and sounds good but other than that it is overhyped to death like the 80’s F1 turbos.
Group C would need a video on its own. I've heard claims it had "constant wheel to wheel action" and it was soooo competitive. Those races were decided by several laps and drivers only went flat out when qualifying.
In group A years engineers understood that putting 600 HP to a rally car was useless because they couldn't even use all that power due to tyre spinning So they started to focus on other fields such as Suspension, durability of all components, aerodinamics and in few years they matched the Group B speeds (just like he said in the video) And also talking about spectators, watching the rally highlights of the early 2000 (the years of the new wrc regs) oftentimes happened that some stage had to be cancelled coz there were too many spectators, so saying that there were no fans after Group B it's just nonsense
No it's not. If you see portugal 87, 88, 89, monte carlo, sanremo and even Argentina, you're going to notice a change. Obviously it wasn't the case of having no spectators, but it was obviously affected. It started to recover around the mid 90s when group a hit their peak in terms of regulations, but then, it went downhill. Don't just blame the Sébastiens, a lot of things have changed during the years. A lot of manufacturers disappeared, rallys became shorter specially during the last 15 years, (with some exceptions) the internet grew, smartphones and social media became a thing, and in 2018 we got full rally coverage. A lot of people will prefer to stay at home and watch the rally, cause it's a lot more confortable, and you can get a lot more information, than walking a gazillion miles, or driving a lot to go to the stages, just to watch a few seconds. And even though, the FIA and the promotors tried everything to make the world of rallying more appealing to the world of today, (meaning: getting further away as possible to the original concept of the sport) there's a lot of people that just don't want to waste a full weekend watching a rally on TV. We have shorter attention spans, and with the amount of entertainment there is today, it gets harder for the wrc to get it's fare share. Yes, it is a motorsport format with a gigantic potential, however, it has to be carefully managed, with the conscious that the world has changed, while respecting the concept, the history and the idea.
You could put 600bhp down to the road, so much so that the Delta S4 could go from zero to 100km/h in 3s. On gravel. "Group A engineers" did not put as much focus on power because of the different regs. I'm sure they would have loved to have 600bhp under the hoods of their cars.
@@peekaboo1575early group A had no power restrictions the cars simply didn’t have as much horsepower because the cars had to be based on a road car. EDIT: Group A cars were modified homologated cars so how much power the car made couldn’t be changed in 1987 the Lancia Delta Intergale only had 275hp and the road car only made 200hp from the same engine if you wanted a better engine you had to produce more cars with said new engine.
Power is always a solution. Cars like the Audi Quatro S2 was only possible because of its power. You can use high angle wings with lots of draft because with a lots of power you dont worry about the draft. And downforce is key in rally.
Most people who want Group B to come back wouldn't even watch if it did. Rally is relatively hard to follow as a spectator. Every form of motorsport used to be hard to follow, but now only rally is like that. WRC lost fans to F1, WEC, etc., and it won't regain them anytime soon.
I ll just say one thing: Kankunnen said the WRC is for Boys, B for men thing after the switch from Group B to A. He test drove the Yaris Rally1(which has group B power and actually puts it down) and literally said thats a car for real men in context of this quote.
The cars were fucking awesome, but that neverending glorification of the class with facts that have little to no basis other than people hearing them in some videos and the therefore resulting hate towards todays WRC is one of the most annoying things in the rallying/motorsport community. I'm so glad that someone took the time and effort to debunk most of the things people say about Group B.
"neverending glorification of the class with facts that have little to no basis other than people hearing them in some videos" Except not all of us are literal children and have a bit more knowledge than a few youtube videos. The "hate towards todays WRC" is because everything is homogenized and sterilized and safe, therefore boring, just like Formula 1, and modern racing games for that matter, it`s BORING..
I bet those "know it all guys" are either AI voiceover junkies or Wikipedia storytellers (just like Black Flags Matter in NASCAR or Depressed Ginger in NFL stadiums)
Hard agree. Group b was a fascinating time, the cars were cool and visceral. But so are group a cars. And wrc. And the 2017 cars. And rally 1. And rally 2. The main issue with rallying since the turn of the millennium is the dominance of the Sebastians. And that's no one's fault , they were just miles ahead of everyone. I still love those cars
Na mate Group A cars provided decent Sport and really cool homologation specials, but the actual racecars were really underwhelming from a purely technologically perspective.
@@TheNecromancer6666 I mean that's a fair opinion to have, but (and Mabel it's just from when I was young) those cars looked fantastic, and we're driven amazingly so for me that negates the lower (comparatively) tech
@@collyboy187 Well that Group A cars were pretty simple from a purely engineering point of view is just a fact. Looks is taste... so you do you. An Escort Cosworth or a Delta Integrale HF are awesome cars. But compared to an S1 E2 every group A car looks... cute. But I totally respect it if you say you prefer the sport of the group A era. I'm an engineer. To me technology is as important, if not more important then the actual racing. But that's just my taste. I grew up in Ingolstadt Group B cars are part of the culture here. The S1 E2 is a god around here. Do that may influence my opinion.
@@TheNecromancer6666 this is just a lie, late group A and especially since the introduction of WRC was overflowing with tech; active diffs, advanced dampers, anti lag, semi auto electronic gearboxes, way better engineered chassis that prioritize structural stiffness, the lot. They were arguably too over engineered and became increasingly expensive to develop and run by mid 2000's during the WRC era, which is why eventually everyone went away, these cars have just as much if not more technology packed into them, just the sort you never see on the surface.
@@npne1253 No its factually accurate. Do tell me how under Group A regulations you can put an active diff in the car if it doesn't have that as Stock. The development war of Diffs and Dampers only started after Group A. Group A didn't run in the WRC in the mid 2000s. Those were "World Rally Cars" and they were significantly different from Group A cars. Group A cars in rallying ran until the 1996 season and none of them had tricky dampers or differentials. 1997 and onwards were "World Rally Cars" and the Group A cars only ran in second tier classes. So all the really clever innovatioms of late 90s and early 2000s WRC: nothing to do with Group A. Also your use of the word "Lie" is false. You thought I was making a mistake. A Lie is a falsehood told on purpose. Example: Your extremely Inaccurate statement on Group A cars is an error, not a lie. You are welcome for both corrections.
In 1992 Richard Burns bet an Armada of (By then ageing!) Group B Metros and Mantas to win the 1992 Mintex Rally Championship. Driving a Group N Subaru Legacy...
The best thing that can be said for Group B is that it did come out with some of the coolest rally cars ever, like the Lancia 037, Ford RS200, and debatably the Porsche 959, though the 959 never actually competed in Group B. I do like Group B, but more for the vibe and aesthetic than the performance.
something that bothers me about the "new rally cars are easy to drive" crowd is while technically true. the difficulty comes in actually being fast. a grippier car with equal safety standards will be much more dangerous because you can push harder, and a 50mph corner will turn into a 80mph corner.
THANK YOU, finally someone said it! Group B was fantastic, but the amount of overhype that turns into hate towards today's WRC is ridiculous. I guess it's the typical case of "you only appreciate something when it's gone" - in 20-30 years, we'll probably look back at the Rally1 spec through the same rose-tinted glasses as we do with Group B
Well, maybe with the Wrc plus. They were the closest cars to group b in philosophy. But Rally1 regulation makes no sense. They are beasts, sure, but a half failure amd a downgrade from plus
I don't get nostalgic for Group B cars because I was alive when they were running and I've just followed WRC through the years. If anything I'd say the Group A era was better, mainly because it was better televised as the only time we saw Group B cars on TV was Tony Mason's recap on Top Gear
@@JSmith19858 Definitey agree, the Group A and early WRC (until 2005-2006) were nearly mainstream, I remember that there were rally summaries broadcasted in prime TV hours in Poland even though we didn’t have any active rally driver. Shame rallying lost its appeal, partly because it’s so hard to follow, but seeing the cars live is still breathtaking
I agree... with almost everything. I don't think the hybrid, sleeker, and simply less bonkers and arguably worse sounding Rally 1 cars will be as well remembered or have as much prestige etc as Group Bs now enjoy. But yea people do need to stop overhyping shit to the point it turns into hate lol.
Maybe I'll write my thoughts about the whole Group B vs. rally racing later. I recently saw this exact comment you start off with at ~3:50 (for the first time ever!) under a F1 video/clip and couldn't believe my eyes to be honest.That statement not even worth debating.
Yeah, as I cover more and more ARA events in the US, I've grown increasingly tired of hearing about group B from people who are absolutely *NOT* fans of the sport, that don't go out of their way to support modern rally in the least. Modern WRC is sick, I just dont know if my current budgetary constraints will allow me to go see it in the next few years, unfortunately. Not holding my breath for Rally USA, but it'd sure be neat to see an actual WRC round in the US again in my lifetime. Cheers from Ohio!
just fyi, a few weeks ago Mr. kankkunen himself said that this current rally1 cars have the closest feel to a group b he ever had with any rally car. the cars have been already faster than the group B already in late Gr.a era so imagine the brutality this current drivers have to face every event...
Hot take for general public but a good argumentation essay going against common missconceptions about 80s rally cars worship There is lies a hope that WRC's ‘Drive to Survive’ aka 'More than Machine' will bring more public attention to tense modern WRC championships
Totally agree and have been saying this for years. Work with a rally obsessed old Italian guy who was one of the crazy spectators back in the 80's. He tells that in reality, the brakes were small, tyres small, suspension bad, and that if you missed the first day of the rally, you probably missed 2/3's of the cars because they were all so unreliable. He has no rose tinted glasses, and is all about newer rally cars, and subscibes to current WRC and loves it. I have been to current WRC rounds, and the cars are the most spectacular, wild, monsters I have ever seen, and the drivers are basically the best drivers in the world of any description.
It’s actually very interesting to get these myths debunked, as a self-proclaimed Group B fan who never watched a single stage. IMO, the cars not only were the coolest, but also had insane performance for the era’s standards. A mid-engine Peugeot 205 or the all wheel-drive Audi Quattro just flying across the gravel tracks while the drivers try not to kill themselves, just how crazy that would’ve been back then.
I mean, if you look at today's WRC, you have a mid-engine Toyota Yaris flying across gravel tracks too, just without the people standing on the track after a jump
@@acoffeewithsatan To be completely honest with you, obviously apart from the engine noise (not that the current engines sound bad, just the inline 5 sound godly), the sight is equally exciting. However, I wouldn’t say there’s any difference between seeing a Rally1 Yaris WRC and a Group B 205 T16 fly through gravel
@@szalonysebcio5 well, to each their own. I don’t particularly find the sight of a Yaris the least exciting, let alone comparing to the 80’s icon that is the 205 Turbo 16, but I’m just grumpy and old-fashioned.
@@acoffeewithsatan they were pretty much the same thing in period. The Quattro was based on the 80. It's like getting misty eye about watching the Polo WRC in 40 years time, as they share as much with the basic road car
@@hillclimbracingfan5821 Thanks man, as a kid ive always liked the livery and the overall look of the car and over time I just became amazed by its specs and dominance in the sport
I have always thought that Group A was a lot more interesting by the competitiveness and also the amount of constructors and also champions that came and went. At some point there was like 7-8 factory teams from several different car brands. Don't get me wrong I like Group B as well but, Group A I have always thought is the peak of WRC. Not to mention the underrated era and short lived category of the FIA 2-Litre World Rally Cup. I really like those FWD kit cars and the tarmac stages. But I do find Group B prototype cars really interesting. Like the Daihatsu Charade DeTomaso 926R or the Ford Escort RS 1700T.
Seeing this (amazing incredibly well made and accurate) video makes me think about toxic boomer 50yrs old F1 fans saying ''nEw F1 CarS aRe So eAsY i cOuLd DriVe eM ToO, tOo mUch EleCtroNic StufF! ThOse CarS DRiVe TheMseLves.''
4:56 made more of those "rally fans" cry, or cry harder. People always want to believe in heroes and that these drivers are superhuman and that these cars are impossible to drive. Race cars are easy to drive but people seem to not realize that these drivers are pushing the very limits of the cars, not going 60km/h. At the limit any car is hard to drive, some more difficult than others but not to the extent most believe. A lot of people, and then games that get made by those same people, portray old race cars as completely undrivable deathtraps. With this also comes the "hard = realistic" mentality of many sim-racers, and when a game becomes more realistic those people will say that "they made it more arcade". The reason I bring games into this conversation is because I believe most Group B fans, or any sort of old race car fans, play these games with insanely difficult to drive cars, find on the internet that these cars killed drivers, and idolize these series to this level. Then, as mentioned before, these people grow to make games and it's this self-fulfilling prophecy of the "real men drive real cars" circlejerk. New WRC cars are faster, safer and rallies are won by seconds, not minutes and sometimes hours like in the 80s. Same for many other racing series. People love to complain about dominant cars when it's happening, but will gladly idolize them in the future. Pretty sure it was boring to see Audi nearly win all the time in Group B, but today people love that car.
The rules of Group B were in fact almost exactly the same as those of Group A, there was just a lower requirement for the number of production cars they needed to make.
@@bduddy55555 the rules indeed were pretty similiar. Group b is cool because of how much technical developement happened in such a short time. The cars were raw and had a lot of power. The cars arent as fast as todays wrc cars but you have to remember that they didnt have the same tires and they had ridicculous turbolag. Modern wrc cars are amazing. I do kinda miss the 2017 cars but the rally 1 cars are really cool aswell
@@0wly I actually dig 2017.-2021. cars over Group B because let's face it,the crazy speed and utter violence shown on stages is something not even Group B can compete with. It was great in it's time but WRC+ cars were more lunatic on stages in comparison.
My opinion on the estoril myth is that there’s a short layout that cuts out the middle sector and they’re comparing dry rally times to wet f1 times. Then I think it is foreseeable that the delta could beat the f1 cars
Yes - about cut layout. Yes - about wheather conditions. But which is even possible that they compared actually "wet" times by Henri, because 4wd S4 had strong advantages during wet conditions with its insane mechanical grip. And then myth did all another work..
There is also the possibility that this is taken from a test where the delta s4 had more power than it normally would have had. Sure the s4 did have upto 800 hp in 86 but much of that power was absolutely unusable because it would have destroyed the tyres
Great video, groub b gets dickridden than any other class and for very little to show for it, and I say that as a dude who will die by the opel manta 400 lmao. Even the cultural impact, ask any kid on the street what their favourite rally car is, they’re gonna say subaru, they’re gonna say mitsubishi, some of the more savvy ones might say ford focus or mini cooper. Same for drivers. At least in the UK, if you ask about rallying, chances are the other person will reply “uhh the sport with colin mcrae right?” Group B, at least for the wider general public, did not leave nearly as much of an imprint as Gr. A or the world rally car era.
@@hussar3906 Well... I literally have never heard anybody say their favorite rallycar is anything but an S1 E2. That said, im from Germany and after Audis Exit nobody here cares about Rally...
@@TheNecromancer6666 that’s fair, I assume it is a regional thing then. It is interesting that vw doesn’t have that recognition tho, since it was a far more successful car
@@hussar3906 Yeah, but honestly: if you have the choice between a firebreathing 560hp 5 cylinder Monster and Polo (even though that Polo is really advanced underneath that bodywork) who chooses the Polo? Plus the S1 E2 is one of the best sounding cars. Ever.
@@TheNecromancer6666 can’t disagree with that lmao. That’s half the appeal of group B the sound and visual and its probably the first thing that gets someone into rallying
@@hussar3906 Plus they ran fuel that makes you a bit high when you stand next to the track long enough. In Ingolstadt Audi used to run them around the City Center every years. First your eyes and nose Start to burn and run and then your head gets a bit dizzy 🤣
"Group B was better because the spectators were also mad. Spectators can't even be too close to the car nowadays" Yea go talk about that to the FIA WRC Safety Delegate, Michele Mouton herself
what this video mostly made me think of is that modern WRC really needs something like slightly spicier Rally2 at the top level, maybe a slightly bigger restrictor, maybe some aero regulation tweaks, but nothing too fancy - keep it simple and more cost-effective, just like Group A after Group B. and also as transparent as possible, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. EDIT: they actually already did this twice - the 2011 cars, as comparatively forgotten as they are nowadays, that kept the lights on for the championship, were basically modified S2000 cars with new engines.
Yeah I 100% agree with WRC moving to a top class of “Rally 2 +”. Former TTE team manager George Donaldson has been openly calling for this for years, and it’s time folks listen to his extremely knowledgeable viewpoint (he’s lost more knowledge than the entirely of our comment section here myself included will ever have). As much as the modern Rally 1 cars are fast, they come with significant drawbacks to the sport namely expense, complexity and well… a lack of a connection to anything. It’s essentially group S with more power. A significant argument to be made that the current Rally 1s are too fast and this force most rallies onto tighter and tighter stages due to FIA mandates on average speed (hence chicanes on various stages). Avoiding going to certain rallies as there will be “too many spectators” or “it will be too fast” isn’t it. A common silhouette space frame with panels to resemble the actual car (or complete fantasy squishing in the case of the Puma) just isn’t interesting. Neither is 3 or 4 actual drivers paid to complete and the rest tagged along to reach broadcaster contractual limits, with 2.5 manufacturers soon to be 1.5 once Hyundai complete its exit. WRC is in a sad sad state and needs a complete reset. Rally 2+ would be the start, then an overhaul over calendar which is sorely lacking variety beyond gravel rallies with little differentiating between them.
Imo the best wrc era were between the end of the 1990's and the early years of 2000's. So much top drivers, lot of manufacturers (beautiful cars), big fights from stage to stage, kit cars and s1600 machines screamed. It was just perfect.
One thing group b praisers also always talk about is the danger. Entire groups standing on the road this and that, cars crashing and whatsoever. They say it in a way where the spectators standing 5 meters farther back is the problem. Like if u want people to die, wrc is still the most dangerous racing series in the world, for driver and spectators. One wrong move before the jump and ur landing 3 meters to the left and flip the car into a crowd of kids. Group b wasnt more dangerous as wrc, id argue wrc is just as dangerous due to the almost doubling of speed.
I'm not sure about modern WRC being just as dangerous. The structural safety is much higher, the statistics show significantly better safety than ever. Statistically the most dangerous year was 1989.
@ yeah good point. I guess what im trying to say is that group b fans use the fact that wrc isnt as dangerous as group b as an argument for wrc not being good enough to watch or enjoy. But if you compare wrc to other motorsports in the world like f1 or wec. Its like 100 times as dangerous. The difference between wrc and group b is not really noticeable on camera so in my opinion its a really unstable shitty argument.
Were Group B cars awesome? Yes. But do they deserve to be hailed as by far the best rally cars of all time? Nope. You can just like them more you know, you dont need to make up 💩 and nonsensical alrguments to justify you liking them better
Hi Failed Racers. My name is Cameron Greenwood Cramp AKA CGC. I'm an Aussie. I'm almost 28 years old. I was born on February 6 1997. I live in Melbourne in Australia AKA the land down under. I am the biggest fan of IMSA in the land down under too. I've been into IMSA for 20 years now. And I love it. It's actually my favourite motorsport nowadays along with the World Endurance Championship AKA WEC and MotoGP & the 24 Hours Of Le Mans. Back in the day, I used to be into all motorsports, but not anymore. It's been like that for the last 10 years also. My favourite IMSA season is every single one of them. From the classic original IMSA from 1971 to 1998 and new IMSA from 2014 onwards. My favourite races in IMSA are the Daytona 24 Hours, the 12 Hours Of Sebring and of course the Watkins Glen 6 Hour held at The Glen. My favourite World Endurance Championship or WEC for short is every single one from 2012 to present day. 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My favourite female racers are Penelope Pitstop and Janet Guthrie & Dancia Patrick. Ford VS Ferrari, Rush, Senna, Grand Prix, Le Mans, Race For Glory: Audi VS Lancia, Days Of Thunder, Talladega Nights and The Love Bug & The Last American Hero are my favourite car movies of all time. The Driver as well. My favourite Australians are Jack Brabham, Peter Brock and Mark Skaife. Bruce McLaren, Burt Munro, Chris Amon, Denny Hulme are my favourite Kiwi's of all time. Also, Lorenzo Bandini and Valentino Rossi are my favourite Italian's of all time. Jacky Ickx is my favourite all around driver and my favourite person from Belgium. Aguri Suzuki is my favourite person and driver from Japan. Great country. Ronnie Peterson is my favourite Swedish person and the greatest person from Sweden too. Ayrton Senna, Emerson Fittipaldi and Nelson Piquet are three of my favourite Brazilian guys and three of the greatest Brazilian's who ever lived. Henri Toivonen is my favourite Finnish person and the greatest person from Finland. Pedro Rodriguez is my favourite Mexican of all time and the greatest Mexican ever. Jim Clark, Colin McRae and Jackie Stewart are three of my favourite drivers from Scotland and three of the best Scotsman ever. 1971, 1982, 1992, 1995 are four of my favourite Indianapolis 500's of all time. Jaques and Gilles Villeneuve are two of my favourite Canadians of all time and two of the best Canadians too. And Jeremy Dale. 1992, 1995, 1997 (CART) are three of the best IndyCar Seasons ever and three of my favourites. 1979 is my favourite Daytona 500 ever along with 1997 and 1998 & 1976. The 1979 Daytona 500 is also my favourite NASCAR race of all time apart from the 1992 Hooters 500. 1979, 1992, 1996, 1997 are four of my favourite Nascar seasons. 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980. 1984. 1994, 1995, 1999, 2003 are favourite Bathurst 1000's of all time. 1993 to 2007 & 2013 are my favourite V8 Supercars seasons ever. Two of the greatest male cartoon racers are Speed Racer and Tom Slick and two of my favourite male cartoon drivers too. 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1982, 1984, 1997, 2003, 2012 and 2014 are my favourite Daytona 24 Hours and are the best as well. 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1983 and 1995 & 2012 are my favourite Sebring 12 Hours and are the best too. Niki Lauda and Jochen Rindt are two of my favourite Austrians and two of the best people from Austria. Juan Manuel Fangio and Carlos Reutemann are two of the best Argentina racers and two of my favourites from Argentina. Clay Regazzoni and Jo Siffert & Alain Menu are my three favourite Swiss people. Three of my favourite drivers from Switzerland. Steve Kinser is my favourite Sprint Car Driver of all time. Like with most people. 1982 to 1986 which were Group B, along with 1995, 1998, 2001 and 2003 are my favourite World Rally Championship's AKA WRC's. 1998, 1997, 1995, 1994 and 2018 are five of my favourites in the British Touring Car Championship. 1966, 1967, 1970, 1971 and 1989 are my favourite World Sportscar Championship's AKA WSC's Every single 500cc season was and is my favourite Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing Season, especially the ones that Freddie Spencer was in. And finally.... Walter Rohrl is my favourite German and easily the best guy from Germany. :)
Every era of rally is unique and underrated. Group 4 had a variety of cars still unmatched, RWD saloon cars, Rear engine cars like the 911 or the Alpine A110, mid engine wedge like the stratos and the first 4wd (Audi Quattro). Group A gave us some of the best road going omologation cars like the Lancia Delta Integrale, Impreza WRX, Lancer Evo, Escort Cosworth, Celica Gt-Four etc. WRC era had some of the best and competitive seasons, especially in the late 90s - early 00s with McRae, Makinen, Sainz, Burns, Gronholm etc
Group B is crazy not because Group B is crazy, its because rally itself is crazy. People are quick to jump to conclusions like "Oh Group B was the best rally division because it was so fast!" like bro all rally divisions were, and are, fast.
About the FC1-X studded tires: this was a makeshift solution needed to retrofit the Nitrocross slick for a couple snow and ice rounds. It was purely a compromise to use the tires they already had.
Group A and 1997-2008 was far better era for Rallying, that was real Golden Era. Real Men who did go flat out and gave us great entertainment. Advice to So called Group B, "know the era, you belong to".
Pretty bullshit when Delta S4 could enter the chat (for the bolide that have all possible behavior, just depends of pilot's will, skill and intentions). Just do not use this typical generalisation and better go to watch modern videos of GrB Lancia's with modern tyres.
Jeez, i said like a little bit boomer, lol. But hey, clear understeer is all and almost only about Quattro S1 (menacing but loser-like competitor of its time)
@@0wly Fun fact is that ones competing currently are owned by Bruno Ianniello,who back when he was in his prime also won many races and championships with S4 and actually built his own hillclimb spec unit out of Stradale S4,which is road version.
Im not an expert on rally cars. But I am on LMP cars. Just for perspective on official powerclaims by manufacturers in motorsport: in 2010 Audi claimed to have 600hp and 1050Nm in the R15. The acceleration curve and the Topspeed prove they ran 750hp and 1300Nm in racetrim and could turn ut up to 800hp when needed. Thats a cool 25% over the claim. I would strongly advise everybody to just add 25% to every manufacturer powerclaim in Motorsport. Unless the class is fuel flow regulated, then you can do math with the energy flow. Audi claimed 571hp in the 2015 R18 RP5. With the 50% thermal efficiency they had on that Diesel they will have had at least 640-650hp....
The current Rally1 cars are just completely insane. So much faster than Gr.B, but not undrivable pieces of junk you need to nurse around to not break them and to not die. The racing is very close and honestly much more exciting than ever before. The hybrid management is also a massive thing and hard to execute right, but i still think the sport will be better when the hybrid system is gone
Current state of Rally1 has shown maybe not trying to bringing back Gr. B isn't that bad at all. And even if it wasn't Corsica accident, Group B would be short lived anyway. Escalating costs would drive manufacturers away, switch to Group A with ease, and Group S would still remain unraced.
Yes, FINALLY! I extend this sentiment to other 80s/90s racing classes. - 90s F1 had more electronics than current F1 and the races were boring as hell most of the time. - Group C drivers rarely went flat out beyond qualifying, races were decided by several laps and wheel to wheel racing was rare. . BTCC supertouring races were shown as edited highlight reels of the best moments with at least partially scripted commentary by Murray Walker, and the series still produces fantastic door-banging racing to this day (you'd think it died after 2000 the way people talk about it). - 90s DTM had weight penalties and performance adjustments from the governing body, so anyone who claims BoP "kills" racing is ignorant at best. Oh, and there's articles from Wild West times about "real men" no longer being a thing, I despise that whole narrative.
thing about Group C is that it has always been a fuel consumption run, so it's either they push first before conserving to the finish or wait it out at the beginning before making a mad dash to them that's where the real deal of prototype racing comes in, the IMSA GTP that is
Intersting thing about Group B is the fact that if it could go further there is a chance that all the cars would evolve into something very simmilar in basics: short wheel base, mid engine, preferably hatch body, thus killing the myth about uniqness of Group B. We've seen that with Lancia, Peugeot and Metro.
@@samuelebarberi8631 Which would have crashed out by 1990 due to spiralling costs, Toyota's 222D was shelved before the cancellation even came out and Audi's Group C Quattro was developed in secret because the higher ups didn't want to spend money on it.
Group B is like the 2JZ engine, both phenomenal in their own right but people tend to put these things on these massive pedestals and overglorify them to the heavens which honestly doesnt even really feel appreciative of what the things they are glorifying actually excel at...
why did you even bother making this video? most the people saying this dont have the attention span for it, because all the group b compilations are tiktok edits
The confusion comes from thinking about this as a sports event. I'd suggest, one has to think about it as a spectacle, a circus on wheels, a motorsports improv-theater with open outcome. The idea was, you combine a very diverse set of vehicle concepts with individual strengths and weaknesses (front, mid, rear engined, rwd, awd, naturally aspirated, supercharged, turbocharged, both; you'd get saloon cars, hatchbacks, sportscars of all shapes, some heavy but reliable, some fragile but super fast, some really strong in traction, some way better in corners, some brutish to drive, some elegant and refined like a scalpel...) , piloted by a literal comicbook hero collection of drivers: the brawling-and-drinking oldschool scandinavian, the rallye professor, the fast, hot and smart girl, the ascetic, reserved perfectionist german, the working-class no-nonsense brit, the daredevil hotheaded young maverick - each bringing their own, very distinct style of rallying, all very dear to their fanbase, and all of them talking openly about their experiences with not a terribly large regard for sponsors' or management wishes. Even the teams were ranging from family affairs and lovable goofs, to stylish, seemingly laid-back gigolos with gold chains and sunglasses, to professional works teams in matching jumpsuits lead by technocrats - again, all with their strengths and weaknesses; you allow them to pick their fights (in several seasons the scoring system was to count only the x best outcomes, leaving the drivers free to skip a number of rallyes without any problem whatsoever) according to their abilities, and you make the whole thing a test of endurance, wit and willpower - these were Hemingway's fights against nature, machine and human all combined into one, instead of normal sporting events. And you wouldn't just have it concentrated in 'good' places where the cameras would get nice footage and you could collect spectator fees, you would literally try to spread it out over entire countries to reach everyone, making those rallyes even more of an endurance match, and making the heros even more reachable and understandable to everyone as they all had to pass through people's backyards to make it to the next stage. If you've ever come across an extreme endurance event in your backyard, that's where you really start to notice what these people are doing. The outcome was definitely unpredictable and exciting each time, in some rallyes even local heros in way lesser cars may have challenged the world elite, and certainly anyone's predictions would change heavily with weather, road conditions, quality of recon, etc. You'd get to see crazy comebacks, awesome feats of driving, the saddest of failures, odyssean tricks, unlikely winners and ecstatic fans. That was what happened, and that's why people remember these differently. Nowadays, we have strictly regulated cars, very high level (and very similar) performance everywhere, which may make for close stage times, but if someone combines a good driver with a top team it may happen, as it did, that fans need to memorize only two last names (and incidentially only one first name) to list the winners of just about all WRC championships 2004-2021 (except 2019). Perfection and performance is not what makes for the most exciting motorsports, especially not rallye. I take it they're trying to make it a bit more colorful again, by adding that hybrid and so on, but I think if those days of the rally circus are gone, what with regulations and noise complaints and so on, and with manufacturees not putting their whole identity into this and making it their focus of motorsports activity- as Audi did, as Lancia did, as Peugeot did...
To underline that point of variety and unpredictability (not to call it competitiveness), I did count the event winners for several years, to represent different eras. Number of individual winners, and vehicle models used by winners: 1982: 7 drivers, 5 cars 1983: 6 drivers, 4 cars 1984: 6 drivers, 4 cars 1985: 6 drivers, 5 cars 1986: 8 drivers, 4 cars --- end of group B era--- 1990: 6 drivers, 3 cars 1995: 4 drivers, 3 cars 2000: 5 drivers, 5 cars 2005: 4 drivers, 3 cars 2010: 4 drivers, 2 cars 2015: 4 drivers, 2 cars 2020: 5 drivers, 2 cars 2024 (yet): 5 driver, 2 cars So I think it's clear - in an event during the Group B days, the actual competition for the win went on between a larger number of drivers and cars, whereas nowadays - real competition exists only between two top cars and a much smaller number of drivers. The chance to see large, well equipped teams actually compete with each other was dropped somewhere along the way... Nowadays you're lucky if there are even two teams competing at a similar level - in several recent seasons (2021, 2023, 2024) it's more like "the top team wins all events, except for two".
@@FailedRacers General rule of thumb: Drivers didn't usually skip the events where they figured they had a good chance of winning. Well, the part-timer bit is at any rate a definite misrepresentation - part timer sounds like either their team didn't have the resources to attend all events (clearly untrue, as all top teams DID attend all events regularly, with understandable exceptions such as fatal accidents), or the drivers weren't "all in" about Rallying - something you might have in mind about Walter Röhrl - a driver who didn't care about the championship so much as about single events and HATED the media buzz surrounding the championship, but actually LIVED for rallying - he did soooo many events throughout his life - from 1980 to 1985, he attended 64 events, and he had done more than 100 during the 1970s, according to eWRC-results. In fact, most of the drivers did not use the time off for rest, they attended other quite profitable or otherwise appealing rallyes apart from the championship schedule - and to do so, the top drivers were usually contractually able to skip one or more which they didn't think they had good chances at - Mouton skipped 1 out of 12 in 1982 and 1983, and did two additional rallyes (won all of them), even though she lived through 7 accidents in the previous two seasons including a bad rollover and the car catching fire; Röhrl skipped half the calender in 1984 at his entry with Audi, but actually partook in 11 rallyes; Toivonen did 13 events 1984, Mikkola did 13 rallyes in 1983 and 15 rallyes in 1984. Blomqvist did a total of 17 events in 1983, all but one of those in Audi Quattros, and 20 events in 1982 - but not exclusively in Quattros, he raced a lot of Talbot Sunbeam Lotus back than. At any rate: Part-time rallye drivers, those were not, quite the opposite. Please also remember that these rallyes were A LOT longer distance than modern events (as you know) and went significantly longer, usually about 5-7 days of actual competition, with the top team usually spending at least a week ahead in recce and prepwork, and two weeks back home for testing and dev - depending on your position in the team, Rallye back in those days was just as much all year round, as today - probably even more so. Rallye Portugal 2024: 337km / 1690km, 22 stages; Portugal 1984: 685km / 2399km, 45 stages Monte Carlo 2024: 324km/ 1649km total 17 stages; Monte Carlo 1985: 851km / 3999km total, 34 stages. Rallye Safari 2024: 355km timed/1300km total, 19 stages; Rallye Safari 1984: 5205km timed/5205km total, no idea how this was even staged - have to imagine all those situations where people would definitely need to fill up, sleep, or take a leak badly, while the clock was running... Imagine trying to relieve yourself into a bottle while your driver is driving at considerable pace, without your roadbook, on bumpy Kenyan roads... I mean, fatigue was clearly much more of a factor than today, as were accidents with injuries, which were way more common back then - and since post-race recovery in many cases consisted of having loads of beers with your mates and sports doctors, physiotherapists or even nutritionists were few and far in between, those things actually added up. It's not like people were slacking off as this makes it sound. Or that there was no top level competition between the attending drivers at the events, which is obviously nonsense.
The point is that by modern standards they were all part timers because none of them competed in all rounds, and some teams didn't go to certain rounds, especially the African rounds that would usually be won by the RWD cars that couldn't win elsewhere since all the top teams didn't show up, so the variety of winners was always going to be bigger.
@@FailedRacers what is that supposed to mean, by modern standards someone is a "part timer" if they drive 15 or 17 rallyes a year, or hundreds of rallyes in a decade, all of which are about twice as long as modern events? Who in modern days does that? The argument is nonsense. What do you think would have happened if these top drivers who did 11 out of 12 attended all the events - if you forced for example Röhrl to drive Kenya and Finland. Do you think he would have won? I'm telling you as a huge fan of Walter, no chance. He tried that in his Opel and Fiat years - it was not his terrain, he couldn't treat the cars like these events required the drivers to do. This is the modern sports mindset - there's a fast driver in a fast car, they should have chances everywhere - no. Different vehicle concepts, different reliability, different driving styles, different quality of preparation for the surfaces. As I said, the field was simply more diverse, and there were more contestants. Remember, even at Kenya or Cote d'Ivoire, the top teams with the 037, Quattro, 205 were always there, made their appearance with two or three cars - it's just that they didn't win, as their constructions wouldn't make it through 5000+km of timed gravel/mud stage as well as the rugged Toyotas and Nissans would. The biggest difference that made the field more open and competitive was that more manufacturers pushed into this than nowadays, and went "the competition is going to be hard, we don't expect the others to drop out from the championship any time soon, we're pushing through anyway - for now we have good chances at Rallye x with our car, that counts as a win already". And that's simply not what's happening today. Now it's "only the championship counts, so oh let's wait until the current big player has had enough, so our team can easily become winners and the marketing department is happy - we'll have really close competition between the drivers in our own team, that's going to keep the fans happy".
I think that group a was called underpowered due to a comment Walter Rörl did 1987. that he was underwhelmed by the power of the gruppe A car he had and hence forth he was quitting his rally career
"WRC is for kids, Groub B is for men" First off, Groub B featured (arguably) the most notable female racing driver in history Second off, isn't Groub B like... a category of WRC?
When Juha Kankkunen said it, I'm assuming he was referring to World Rally Cars, the regs from 1996-2021, but lots of these Group B fans think Group B was its own championship.
@@LotsOfToubleUsuallySerious It isn't impossible just very improbable. Just as it isn't impossible that a randomly selected woman out of the population is stronger than a man, it's just very unlikely.
saying back in the 80 rally drivers were real man (and real woman in person of Michele Mouton) is like saying that Carlos Saints who is still active as a rally driver at age of 62 is not a real men or maybe Colin McRea wasn't a real man going by way if in doubt flat out?
The reason people love Group B so much is, at the end of it, the aesthetic. Those cars looked cool and each was unique and you could immediately tell them apart from one another. Modern rally cars all look samey, though that is not a problem with WRC but with the automotive industry as a whole as they are based on cars the manufacturers sell.
Exactly and it may be simple/primitive thinking but the appeal of motorsport as a whole for me is to watch awesome looking and sounding cars going fast. If the cars aren't cool and all look the same, it's just not that exciting to watch and it doesn't matter if they are faster than ever or not.
Even if differences aren't as notable as in group b, current cars don't look that much each other... Is a downer in modern car industry in overall, but not that in wrc really. Rules are more strict, having 3-cyl engine while others have 4-cyl is propably as big of a difference as they allow - but many technical treats and differences still exist. Besides, for example Yaris GR that can buy from dealer is one damn sexy car, honestly even if cheaper I'd rather own that instead of any group b road version car. Other than the 5-cyl engine sound, not sure if there's much to miss... current cars are just so much faster, whole another level.
All i can say is big thank you for this video and for realistic aspect with which it was made and for going for facts and not a telltale stuff. First video i see about Group B without overhyping it and for looking at the category with grounded point of view. Again,props for making it.
I think it's a matter of nostalgia and perceived speed. The old footage of a Lancia Delta roaring down the stages evoke a sense of greatness and the "struggle" those cars had to keep a proper racing line makes them more dramatic to watch. That also gives a sense of speed and weight. Moreover, for a long time we have heavy weight brands competing like Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Audi, Renault, Citroen, Opel... the Europeans brand have completely disappeared in WRC1 and lost all significance I'd say it's a mind trick that happens in all sports. We have a slide show of great memories from the past, a series of highlights, because a brain does a good job at deleting boring content to free space for the good stuff. I remember the Schumacher times as glorious in F1 and yet if I stop and think a little more all the boring races come to mind as well... It's the same in rally
I don't want to bad mouth Group B as I still love them, and I think in that era they were savage machines (like in those days, in Europe a hatch with 100 - 150 hp were performance cars. Now 100 - 150 hp, it's nothing special anymore. But the thoughts of a Opel Kadett gsi 16v or a Renault 5 turbo, etc, still make me feel good.) But I agree with you. The other day, I watched a video about Group B. Sure enough, someone commented that they should bring back Group B but without the spectators. I explained that the modern Rally 1 car are kinda Group B cars with their tubular space frames and with a combined ICE/ hybrid power of 500+ hp. Also, with their aero body kits, they also kinda look like Group B's. I also commented that the cars after the Group B were faster on the stages. I have noticed that UA-cam becomes polluted with Group B video's uploaded by people with no knowledge about WRC and Group B or rally in general. It just becomes click bait!!!!
This basically the same thing when it comes to nascar fans that says " the cars is not stock and these drivers are not good compared to dale Earnhardt , these drivers dont have personality" bunch of bums.
I dont think that group B is overrated, but it is a very boomer thing to stick to the "wrc is for boys, group B is for men" And just the stupid amount of praising for group B, its amazing... but... so was group A, so still is WRC, R5, F2 kit cars and whatever they use in Scandinavian Rally scenes xD
I was kinda expecting ine of those "Please stop liking this" videos but I'm actually pleasantly surprised. I love Group B, it's an incredible era that gave birth to cars that likely wouldn't have existed - at least not in the same capacity had it not happened, but the idea that WRC "sucks" because it can't do what Group B did is just ridiculous. Group B is an era to respect and look back on, but it shouldn't be used as an example and reason to hate newer generations of rally racing. Without Group B we likely wouldn't have the modern rally racing we have now, so be grateful the sport still exists, Group B very well could've been the end of all rally racing as much as it was a pioneer of modern rally racing too, restrictions and safety precautions to make drivers and crowds safer is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
Group A was peak for me, the cars were exciting to watch the way they were driven plus the fact you could actually buy a close variant if you had enough money
I’m just going to leave this here; Metro 6R4 (being driven hard by a competent rally driver) 2.41 60ft 34.33 finish time 2.14 31.54 2.04 32.25 2.02 31.35 Volvo C30 full weight road car (driven by me, baby seat in back, 316bhp, road tyres) 2.81 35.17 2.75 32.77 2.76 32.80 2.63 32.06 0.71 seconds difference between us, and 0.61 of that was purely launching off the start line (4WD vs open diff FWD), meaning a full on Group B 6R4 posts basically the same times as a Volvo. Oh and just for laughs from the same event; Impreza S12 WRC 2.19. 30.25 2.14. 29.41 2.18. 28.88 2.17. 28.69 (Using launch control with Rocket ALS!)
Just a minor nitpick, the 6R4 you were up against is a "Clubman" variation produced after 1986, they only made 300HP and were drastically slower than the 86 variants for obvious reasons. Not to discount anything
Quick note of the Quattro va electric car, and multiple other Group B cars: many ”real” Group B cars you see in show runs, rallies, and other events are not real Group B cars. Especially many Audis, but also multiple Lancias, Peugeots, and others are replicas. Furthermore, some ”Group B” cars take liberties in what technology they run underneath. For example, seeing a 4WD Group B car do a handbrake turn is a sure way to know it’s not even a replica but a reimagination, as the technology required to cut off rear diff by handbrake was brought into WRC by Toyota in 1989. The point is, sometimes these ”real” Group B cars you see nowadays are replicas, sometimes they run different engine block, transmission, differencial, turbo, etc. and offer no real comparison to the originals. Another note of the drivers being ”full time”. The schedule, with longer events and longer recces, made it so that not every driver had the time to contest all events in the calendar. Furthermore, not all events in the calendar were calculated into the final points for drivers or manufacturers. For example, the Ivory Coast round of 1988 championship was won by a FWD Renault 5 GT Turbo Group A car that had zero competitiveness against Lancia or Mazda, or even BMW for that matter. Ivory Coast did not count towards driver’s championship, and with the unfortunate timing, factories skipped it. This was common in the 80s and 90s, and that’s why some events had ”odd” winners and little to no factory entries.
Great video! I half expected engagement bait but that clearly isn't the case. Also about the "big balls" argument, not long ago a driver said something along the lines of "in Finland, if I don't feel like I could die the next turn then I'm not going fast enough". I think it was in response to Craig Breen's passing :( It's not very different from Group B at all is it?
A lot of Group B fans tend to ignore the cultural popuality the WRC had during the Group A and Early WRC period during the late 90s and early 2000s. Video games, RC cars of Focuses, Imprezas, Evos and 206s in the shops, the names of the drivers were household names (especially Colin McRae and Richard Burns in the UK) and I remember the WRC was on the telly a lot of the time in a lot of homes. I remember Rally Portigual during 2000 had a few cancelled stages because of the huge crowd of spectators. Seeing coverage on TV shows how many people were at the stages, which shows the claim "Rallying died after 1986" is a total myth. Put a Subaru Impreza 555 Group A car on the same stage with an Audi Quattro, most of the time it will decimate the Quattro. Technology always improves as time goes on. Despite I stopped watching rallying for decades now, those new Rally 1 cars are the fastest cars to ever exist in the WRC, sometimes it's better to acknowledge the facts and put off the rose tinted glasses.
A good point of comparison is modern GT3 cars. They’re not super fast in terms of top speed and acceleration, but their aero and cornering capabilities are so strong they can still make good pace anyway
Yes they easily match the pace of GT1 cars (not talking about 1997 and 1998 cause those were a mix of GT's and LMP's really). However I don't like the fact they never renamed them into GT1 and now there's a GT2 class that is slower than the GT3 class.
@@real765rp8lowkey disappointed with SRO's GT2's pace when compared to the GT3's and I certainly think that GT1 will be very difficult to revive, since it's all about that supercars modified into racecars yadda yadda. like y'know, ferrari f40, mclaren f1, the purpose built gt1 cars made for the homologation itself like the CLK GTR Straßenversion, the '911' GT1, the R390 and the 1 of fucking 1 toyota gt-one or maybe it's difficult to revive GT1 but not that difficult when you look at the 2000s GT1 racecars and their road goings
If someone asked me which was for me the best eras of WRC, I would answer the begin of Group A until now. If see you well, we had also good eras on that time: Group A - The rebirth after Group B, with better safety and new rules F2 Kit Cars - The literal kings of Tarmac with famous names like Gilles Panizzi and Philippe Bugalski (RIP), such as 306 Maxi, Ibiza and others, beating cars like Subaru and Evos Seb Loeb golden era: Everyone trying to beat this mf but is the most recorded rally driver of all time And finally, kiddos destroyed and overhyped Group B
Finally a video dispelling the myths surrounding group B. I have been to several rallies in person and one of them had a Group B 6R4 in it. Such a cool car and it was surprisingly fast for how old it was but the modern R5s, 2L WRC, 1.6 pre 2017 WRC and group A cars there were significantly faster and more exciting to watch. If you want to see how exciting just watching modern WRC cars are have a look at recent videos from Rally Finland. Absolutely crazy stuff
I get the your point. But: If you have ever seen, heard felt and smelt those cars you can't overrate them. I have even driven one. Absolutely insane. WRC1 cars are almost as insane and awesome to watch. If you can go to a rally PLEASE do it!!! But just not that visceral. But want to know something: that's the same with every modern car. Modern perfection makes them less exciting. That's not a bad thing though. And, trust men those 380hp 1,6 Liter 4 pots in WRC1 cars Sound great. And are hilariously loud. Louder then most other modern racing series. Group B are awesome. So is WRC1. And while I will always come to see Group B cars driven around, that doesn't take anything away from WRC1. The only criticism with WRC1 is that the engines are almost identical. I would prefer more variety.
Manufacturers didn't drop the WRC by 1986. In fact, many renewed their commitment to the series, with many others announced their intentions to join the series. 1. Peugeot 2.Lancia 3. Ford 4. Toyota 5. Skoda 7. Audi 8. MG Majority launched and tested group S prototypes (a group b with more relaxed homogolation requirements) The only one decided to scrap their projects and leave was Audi and their reason was safety concerns and brand association with fatal accidents. It was not cost nor technical complexity
You are right but you are imprecise, for instance. A rally car, modern or not can technically pull up faster than a F1 car but it is not faster, just faster to accelerate up to a point where it has to shift gears which are indeed very short after the start and then it gradually becomes much slower, but. I think rally cars could be faster than a F1 car, just in a straight line, if the rally cars simply had more powerful engines (weight in a straight line doesn't matter as much if that straight line is "infinitely" long and if for instance the heavier vehicle's engine has more power) which the same argument to be made about GroupB cars compared to other and more modern era rally cars is the same. GroupB would be faster in a straight line, not in and through corners. Also a minor point of contempt is that F1 cars couldn't technically rally due to their low distance from the ground up, therefore they would break down on a rally stage regardless of how fast they are, even if they were raised to be higher from the ground up. They are simply too fragile for rallying and are totally based and focused on circuit racing, but.. GroupB and F1 are the same though in terms of engineering where GroupB basically for the period of '81 to '86 had no restrictions and F1 basically works in similar ways and has restrictions in place in context of one another (one F1 car to another + budget restrictions these days) but beyond that F1 cars are the fastest racing cars in the world with allegedly the best drivers in the world. (we can argue that rally drivers are better drivers than F1 drivers) This is often the point of contempt as again I've stated if rally, GroupB cars would have evolved, the question then is: how would things be now, then? So now a second thing that I've noticed is, you're comparing 80's cars with for instance 90's or 2000 and above rally cars which technically isn't fair because obviously cars, rally cars that are post '86 era have had improvements and technical improvements specifically like far superior: suspension, lighter and stronger materials and better safety, perhaps even superior aerodynamics (making the drivers be able to push them harder) that makes them superior to the GroupB cars because the advancements of those had ceased in the 80's. So if, and there were more improvements planned but due to the events and how these unfolded in the 80's and then specifically in '86 for the GroupB cars, we of course never got to see the improved Group B rally cars in action which would have had, just like their circuit counterparts of F1: 1000BHP engines and that is also a point of contempt, that we could argue that GroupB cars had superior engines than the modern WRC cars who are often and most of the years or era's or whatever one calls them, capped at around 300BHP, so to say: If GroupB was further developed and had evolved up to the modern day; 1: WRC might have been more popular 2: Drivers might have had gotten better at controlling them, which is arguably debatable but this comes out of the idea that each concurrent generation is in some way better than the older one, which I'm referring to people (unless we address the safety and technological improvements part of the cars themselves) and: 3: GroupB cars would have been much faster than anything else on rally stages, I think at least so _if_ they were developed further and had no limits like in the 80's. "No limits" here has a caveat, because no limit means; _up to a certain limit,_ because there is no going beyond that; a certain limit. I think. So, I think that when people refer to GroupB being the fastest rally cars in some ways they are right (I think they are definitely right when it comes to the engines themselves because these I think were works of marvel and very powerful, more powerful than anything else in WRC then and perhaps even now, minus the new Hybrides {maybe}) and people who argue against this are also in some ways right, lol. We just need to be very anal and technical and above all very specific and precise about this because it's not about facts always but it's also about hypothetical scenarios, like: _if, if if..._ Like… If this then that and if that then this and so on, and so on. What in rallying thought might have been faster than anything else, including both the regular WRC cars and the GroupB are the mythical Kit Cars, but this as we say is a topic for another time. ;)
what good is top speed If you cannot fully utilise the power & handle it under pressure? Also the difference in driving technique vs now. Back then no group b cars really had a hydraulic handbrake.
Wonder how the Czech Tank would go on that Assetto Corsa stage? I've got that covered too in this unlisted video: ua-cam.com/video/KYHI3gdui7s/v-deo.html
Heard you n shut but I won't
The Group B is not overrated, the rest of the eras are underrated
The only way anyone can understand the 1980's is to actually lived through it. It was all the power with none of the refinement. All the speed with the real threat of being stuck in wreckage with a high risk of fire and relying on spotters through out the stage to radio for help if you don't come past. All the best materials that hadn't given anyone the big C yet. All the great sponsors whose products reduced your life span. None of the driver aids. None of the over the top safety/conditions stoppages. Most importantly though no arse holes casting judgment based on 5 min youtube video from the pro nouned safe space. You see if you wanted to watch them or even get more information that TV highlights you had to leave your house.
The early 90's saw the overlords start to catch up with technical and safety regulations. The mid/late 90's saw management systems improve dramatically which when coupled with the new data acquisition ended the era of genuine talent being an edge.
Group B, F1 and Group C sports cars is more about the drivers and how life was.
So as the majority of you prove the Dunning-Kruger effect correct whilst using other peoples footage to tell everyone how it was or watch said video to grace the internet with a complete lack of understanding about the topic just remember what 3/4 of the world did over the past few years.
As for the uploader of this you've never got a topic right yet. You really should drop the "s" from your handle.
Absolutley
Yes, Group B from 1982 to 1986. This era of rallying was by far the best. Along with the Colin McRae era from 1987 to 2006. :)
@MarcoVerma
Yep, Group B, 1982 - 1986. This era of rallying was by far the best.
Apart from the Colin McRae era from 1987 to 2006.
:)
Including the modern Era, which gets a lot of shit but consistently produces close and exciting rallies
The internet: "Those were real men going all out, not caring about anything but going fast"
Walter Röhrl: "I don't like jumps"
Something something michelle mouton, something something pikes peak, something something walter rohrls record.
Yes?
You can't go "all out" with Group B cars, those death machines were hard to drive. You can't utilize all 500+ horses they have because you're struggling to keep the car in control.
ONE guy didn`t like jumps - judges entire sport.
Or “they didn’t care about safety”, except for all the drivers who loudly complained after the Rally Portugal and Tour de Corse crash
@@koekiejam18 something something Peugeot 205T16
The reason you don't hear modern rally drivers complaining about their cars going too fast is because they do not use 1980s differentials, suspensions, tires, etc.
I also suspect that driver fatigue had a lot to do with the drivers comments. The stages were longer in the group B era and the drivers were not well protected from all the heat and fumes coming from the engine they were sharing a cockpit with. Trying to hang onto a rowdy 500hp sled on 80's running gear while getting cooked and gassed is going to affect your mental capacity the longer you have to do it. I believe a lot of the suspicion around Toivonen's death was that he fainted at the wheel because he was exhausted and dehydrated due to illness and the brutal conditions in the car
@@DjDolHaus86 That to me is the real difference back then, back then they were actual point-to-point rallies, not selections of dirt roads ran twice in both directions. I know it's not really the organizers' fault in most cases why things have changed, and it is definitely better for spectators, I just think it's not even remotely the same kind of spectacle.
@@DjDolHaus86 yeah and ontop of that the cars had no powersteering so they were hard to push around corners
@@DjDolHaus86That’s plausible, I believe that he blacked out due to his crash in 85. He broke vertebrae’s and told people close to him that he’d black out from time to time but not the Lancia Team because he didn’t want to stop racing. That combined with the longevity of the stages and with how he was sick made it so much worse
I think that the biggest thing group B actually has over modern rally is the aesthetics. The cars looked... I don't even want to say "better," but they were more unique looking. Today's rally cars suffer a cookie cutter appearance, not through any fault of rally, but because of the cars they're based on. And that's honestly it.
Well. Also, there's no 5-cylinders making glorious noises, but that's fine, I can make them myself, I have a Volvo.
To be fair though, Group B had the same problem. By 1985 all the actually good cars kinda looked the same. I love the Lancia Delta, Renault 5, Peugeot 205, MG Metro etc., but there's only so much you can do with the concept of "short wheelbase, insane aero hatchback with a mid-engine layout". I reckon people 40 years from now will look at a Hyundai i20 N Rally1 or Toyota GR Yaris Rally1 the same way we look at a Lancia Delta S4 or a Peugeot 205 T16.
@@Tepid24 It's funny that last sentence, I feel like I read similar reactions to the initial Rally1 thing. I remember remarks of "yo this new spec sure reminds me of Group B..."
biggest problem with modern cars , it might be nostalgia carrying it but in my and clearly alot of outhers oppinions cars of that era just looked the best across the board ,you see the same issue with the initial d sequel series its not like bad but it uses modern cars which makes it far less entertaining or intresting to watch than the original show (which lets be real was heavily carried by the cars looking cool as much as i love that show i cant ever say its a objectivly good one )
This situation reminds me a whole lot of the 787B. It’s great that the car won, and that it was the first Japanese car to win at lemans. And it sounds wonderful sure. And I love the Renown livery as much as the next guy. But as soon as people started insinuating that the reasoning for rotary powered cars being banned was somehow due to the dominant performance of a car that only had one podium finish in its career is insane to me.
It's funny how the sport 3.5L cars of the time were somehow less reliable than a regular group C car with a Wankel engine made to produce up to 700 HP.
@@Oscar97o the reliability and longevity is definitely impressive and sorta ironic. But if the Mercedes didn’t have issues (crashing out, mechanical faults) there’s no doubt those cars were faster
I’ll say it, the Mazda 787 is one of the most overrated race cars that won one major race event. It looks and sounds good but other than that it is overhyped to death like the 80’s F1 turbos.
@TheLockbeard It'll get a video
Group C would need a video on its own. I've heard claims it had "constant wheel to wheel action" and it was soooo competitive. Those races were decided by several laps and drivers only went flat out when qualifying.
In group A years engineers understood that putting 600 HP to a rally car was useless because they couldn't even use all that power due to tyre spinning
So they started to focus on other fields such as Suspension, durability of all components, aerodinamics and in few years they matched the Group B speeds (just like he said in the video)
And also talking about spectators, watching the rally highlights of the early 2000 (the years of the new wrc regs) oftentimes happened that some stage had to be cancelled coz there were too many spectators, so saying that there were no fans after Group B it's just nonsense
No it's not. If you see portugal 87, 88, 89, monte carlo, sanremo and even Argentina, you're going to notice a change. Obviously it wasn't the case of having no spectators, but it was obviously affected. It started to recover around the mid 90s when group a hit their peak in terms of regulations, but then, it went downhill. Don't just blame the Sébastiens, a lot of things have changed during the years. A lot of manufacturers disappeared, rallys became shorter specially during the last 15 years, (with some exceptions) the internet grew, smartphones and social media became a thing, and in 2018 we got full rally coverage. A lot of people will prefer to stay at home and watch the rally, cause it's a lot more confortable, and you can get a lot more information, than walking a gazillion miles, or driving a lot to go to the stages, just to watch a few seconds. And even though, the FIA and the promotors tried everything to make the world of rallying more appealing to the world of today, (meaning: getting further away as possible to the original concept of the sport) there's a lot of people that just don't want to waste a full weekend watching a rally on TV. We have shorter attention spans, and with the amount of entertainment there is today, it gets harder for the wrc to get it's fare share.
Yes, it is a motorsport format with a gigantic potential, however, it has to be carefully managed, with the conscious that the world has changed, while respecting the concept, the history and the idea.
You could put 600bhp down to the road, so much so that the Delta S4 could go from zero to 100km/h in 3s. On gravel.
"Group A engineers" did not put as much focus on power because of the different regs. I'm sure they would have loved to have 600bhp under the hoods of their cars.
@@peekaboo1575 they had turbo restrictors about 33mm, I believe, so maximum power wouldn't exceed 340, 350bhp
@@peekaboo1575early group A had no power restrictions the cars simply didn’t have as much horsepower because the cars had to be based on a road car.
EDIT: Group A cars were modified homologated cars so how much power the car made couldn’t be changed in 1987 the Lancia Delta Intergale only had 275hp and the road car only made 200hp from the same engine if you wanted a better engine you had to produce more cars with said new engine.
Power is always a solution. Cars like the Audi Quatro S2 was only possible because of its power. You can use high angle wings with lots of draft because with a lots of power you dont worry about the draft. And downforce is key in rally.
Most people who want Group B to come back wouldn't even watch if it did.
Rally is relatively hard to follow as a spectator. Every form of motorsport used to be hard to follow, but now only rally is like that. WRC lost fans to F1, WEC, etc., and it won't regain them anytime soon.
Yeah for real, that's pretty sad how such a special motorsport is given little attention just because of some people
I mean it is kinda back, the new rally1 regulation make more power then group b cars and are faster full stop
It would be easy to follow but they decided to hide all onboards behind a paywall
because wrc has horrible monetisation and streaming models
HAHAHAHA yes!!! Bro the coverage its like a car flashing by and a onboard with gearbox noises
I ll just say one thing: Kankunnen said the WRC is for Boys, B for men thing after the switch from Group B to A. He test drove the Yaris Rally1(which has group B power and actually puts it down) and literally said thats a car for real men in context of this quote.
The cars were fucking awesome, but that neverending glorification of the class with facts that have little to no basis other than people hearing them in some videos and the therefore resulting hate towards todays WRC is one of the most annoying things in the rallying/motorsport community. I'm so glad that someone took the time and effort to debunk most of the things people say about Group B.
"neverending glorification of the class with facts that have little to no basis other than people hearing them in some videos"
Except not all of us are literal children and have a bit more knowledge than a few youtube videos.
The "hate towards todays WRC" is because everything is homogenized and sterilized and safe, therefore boring, just like Formula 1, and modern racing games for that matter, it`s BORING..
@afrog2666 yet here you are acting like a baby
Here before the mf tiktok motorsport "experts" come to "prove" their shit
I bet those "know it all guys" are either AI voiceover junkies or Wikipedia storytellers (just like Black Flags Matter in NASCAR or Depressed Ginger in NFL stadiums)
And add in some CCP propaganda to boot
@@FGGHHRJKSUEUEYYR Wait wha...?
Is that like forum experts from the 00s?
Hard agree. Group b was a fascinating time, the cars were cool and visceral. But so are group a cars. And wrc. And the 2017 cars. And rally 1. And rally 2. The main issue with rallying since the turn of the millennium is the dominance of the Sebastians. And that's no one's fault , they were just miles ahead of everyone. I still love those cars
Na mate Group A cars provided decent Sport and really cool homologation specials, but the actual racecars were really underwhelming from a purely technologically perspective.
@@TheNecromancer6666 I mean that's a fair opinion to have, but (and Mabel it's just from when I was young) those cars looked fantastic, and we're driven amazingly so for me that negates the lower (comparatively) tech
@@collyboy187 Well that Group A cars were pretty simple from a purely engineering point of view is just a fact.
Looks is taste... so you do you. An Escort Cosworth or a Delta Integrale HF are awesome cars. But compared to an S1 E2 every group A car looks... cute. But I totally respect it if you say you prefer the sport of the group A era. I'm an engineer. To me technology is as important, if not more important then the actual racing. But that's just my taste.
I grew up in Ingolstadt Group B cars are part of the culture here. The S1 E2 is a god around here. Do that may influence my opinion.
@@TheNecromancer6666 this is just a lie, late group A and especially since the introduction of WRC was overflowing with tech; active diffs, advanced dampers, anti lag, semi auto electronic gearboxes, way better engineered chassis that prioritize structural stiffness, the lot.
They were arguably too over engineered and became increasingly expensive to develop and run by mid 2000's during the WRC era, which is why eventually everyone went away, these cars have just as much if not more technology packed into them, just the sort you never see on the surface.
@@npne1253 No its factually accurate. Do tell me how under Group A regulations you can put an active diff in the car if it doesn't have that as Stock. The development war of Diffs and Dampers only started after Group A.
Group A didn't run in the WRC in the mid 2000s. Those were "World Rally Cars" and they were significantly different from Group A cars. Group A cars in rallying ran until the 1996 season and none of them had tricky dampers or differentials. 1997 and onwards were "World Rally Cars" and the Group A cars only ran in second tier classes. So all the really clever innovatioms of late 90s and early 2000s WRC: nothing to do with Group A.
Also your use of the word "Lie" is false. You thought I was making a mistake. A Lie is a falsehood told on purpose.
Example: Your extremely Inaccurate statement on Group A cars is an error, not a lie. You are welcome for both corrections.
This is literally the best rally take I’ve ever seen
It’s the kids who have zero experience with cars outside of video games that seem to be the worst of them all.
In 1992 Richard Burns bet an Armada of (By then ageing!) Group B Metros and Mantas to win the 1992 Mintex Rally Championship. Driving a Group N Subaru Legacy...
The best thing that can be said for Group B is that it did come out with some of the coolest rally cars ever, like the Lancia 037, Ford RS200, and debatably the Porsche 959, though the 959 never actually competed in Group B. I do like Group B, but more for the vibe and aesthetic than the performance.
something that bothers me about the "new rally cars are easy to drive" crowd is while technically true. the difficulty comes in actually being fast. a grippier car with equal safety standards will be much more dangerous because you can push harder, and a 50mph corner will turn into a 80mph corner.
THANK YOU, finally someone said it! Group B was fantastic, but the amount of overhype that turns into hate towards today's WRC is ridiculous. I guess it's the typical case of "you only appreciate something when it's gone" - in 20-30 years, we'll probably look back at the Rally1 spec through the same rose-tinted glasses as we do with Group B
Well, maybe with the Wrc plus. They were the closest cars to group b in philosophy. But Rally1 regulation makes no sense. They are beasts, sure, but a half failure amd a downgrade from plus
I don't get nostalgic for Group B cars because I was alive when they were running and I've just followed WRC through the years. If anything I'd say the Group A era was better, mainly because it was better televised as the only time we saw Group B cars on TV was Tony Mason's recap on Top Gear
@@JSmith19858 Definitey agree, the Group A and early WRC (until 2005-2006) were nearly mainstream, I remember that there were rally summaries broadcasted in prime TV hours in Poland even though we didn’t have any active rally driver. Shame rallying lost its appeal, partly because it’s so hard to follow, but seeing the cars live is still breathtaking
There is no hate towards modern WRC,but modern WRC is for pussies. It's not hating. And you comparing f1 and rally is just stupid.
I agree... with almost everything. I don't think the hybrid, sleeker, and simply less bonkers and arguably worse sounding Rally 1 cars will be as well remembered or have as much prestige etc as Group Bs now enjoy. But yea people do need to stop overhyping shit to the point it turns into hate lol.
I hope this video is exactly what it teases to be
"Group B was awesome...but.."
Maybe I'll write my thoughts about the whole Group B vs. rally racing later.
I recently saw this exact comment you start off with at ~3:50 (for the first time ever!) under a F1 video/clip and couldn't believe my eyes to be honest.That statement not even worth debating.
Former group b argument starter. This has really put my understanding into perspective. Thank you
If Group B cars were faster than F1 cars wed have to go to rewrite the universes physics rules😂
Fia make new physics rules :D and also everyone have to use same physics, like they use same hybrid :D
Yeah, as I cover more and more ARA events in the US, I've grown increasingly tired of hearing about group B from people who are absolutely *NOT* fans of the sport, that don't go out of their way to support modern rally in the least.
Modern WRC is sick, I just dont know if my current budgetary constraints will allow me to go see it in the next few years, unfortunately.
Not holding my breath for Rally USA, but it'd sure be neat to see an actual WRC round in the US again in my lifetime.
Cheers from Ohio!
Group B was cool, but anything after that was even better and the hybrids are absolute fire.
just fyi, a few weeks ago Mr. kankkunen himself said that this current rally1 cars have the closest feel to a group b he ever had with any rally car. the cars have been already faster than the group B already in late Gr.a era so imagine the brutality this current drivers have to face every event...
Rally1 car actually made him eat his most famous words.Enough said.
no other rally car before or after Group B will ever come close to the absolute beast that was the Škoda 130 LR with an incredible 130 horsepower
Hot take for general public but a good argumentation essay going against common missconceptions about 80s rally cars worship
There is lies a hope that WRC's ‘Drive to Survive’ aka 'More than Machine' will bring more public attention to tense modern WRC championships
Totally agree and have been saying this for years.
Work with a rally obsessed old Italian guy who was one of the crazy spectators back in the 80's.
He tells that in reality, the brakes were small, tyres small, suspension bad, and that if you missed the first day of the rally, you probably missed 2/3's of the cars because they were all so unreliable.
He has no rose tinted glasses, and is all about newer rally cars, and subscibes to current WRC and loves it.
I have been to current WRC rounds, and the cars are the most spectacular, wild, monsters I have ever seen, and the drivers are basically the best drivers in the world of any description.
Pretty much every history of Group B I've seen has made it clear that it was unsustainable and was lucky to last as long as it did.
It’s actually very interesting to get these myths debunked, as a self-proclaimed Group B fan who never watched a single stage. IMO, the cars not only were the coolest, but also had insane performance for the era’s standards. A mid-engine Peugeot 205 or the all wheel-drive Audi Quattro just flying across the gravel tracks while the drivers try not to kill themselves, just how crazy that would’ve been back then.
I mean, if you look at today's WRC, you have a mid-engine Toyota Yaris flying across gravel tracks too, just without the people standing on the track after a jump
@@szalonysebcio5 I mean, would you rather see a Toyota Yaris flying across the gravel, or an Audi Quattro? I think that’s the point of the matter.
@@acoffeewithsatan To be completely honest with you, obviously apart from the engine noise (not that the current engines sound bad, just the inline 5 sound godly), the sight is equally exciting. However, I wouldn’t say there’s any difference between seeing a Rally1 Yaris WRC and a Group B 205 T16 fly through gravel
@@szalonysebcio5 well, to each their own. I don’t particularly find the sight of a Yaris the least exciting, let alone comparing to the 80’s icon that is the 205 Turbo 16, but I’m just grumpy and old-fashioned.
@@acoffeewithsatan they were pretty much the same thing in period. The Quattro was based on the 80. It's like getting misty eye about watching the Polo WRC in 40 years time, as they share as much with the basic road car
I told someone my favorite rally car was the '99 Corolla and some bloke went on a 20 minute rant about how much better the Audi was🤦🏿♂️
@@2w0nGranTurismo Wait really?I get it’s a cool car but that’s taking it a bit too far. By the way,very based choice for favorite rally car.
@@hillclimbracingfan5821 Thanks man, as a kid ive always liked the livery and the overall look of the car and over time I just became amazed by its specs and dominance in the sport
I have always thought that Group A was a lot more interesting by the competitiveness and also the amount of constructors and also champions that came and went. At some point there was like 7-8 factory teams from several different car brands. Don't get me wrong I like Group B as well but, Group A I have always thought is the peak of WRC. Not to mention the underrated era and short lived category of the FIA 2-Litre World Rally Cup. I really like those FWD kit cars and the tarmac stages. But I do find Group B prototype cars really interesting. Like the Daihatsu Charade DeTomaso 926R or the Ford Escort RS 1700T.
Seeing this (amazing incredibly well made and accurate) video makes me think about toxic boomer 50yrs old F1 fans saying ''nEw F1 CarS aRe So eAsY i cOuLd DriVe eM ToO, tOo mUch EleCtroNic StufF! ThOse CarS DRiVe TheMseLves.''
Also the "fans" who think drivers today are "cowards" or "not brave" because there's so much safety features are just the worst.
4:56 made more of those "rally fans" cry, or cry harder.
People always want to believe in heroes and that these drivers are superhuman and that these cars are impossible to drive. Race cars are easy to drive but people seem to not realize that these drivers are pushing the very limits of the cars, not going 60km/h.
At the limit any car is hard to drive, some more difficult than others but not to the extent most believe. A lot of people, and then games that get made by those same people, portray old race cars as completely undrivable deathtraps. With this also comes the "hard = realistic" mentality of many sim-racers, and when a game becomes more realistic those people will say that "they made it more arcade".
The reason I bring games into this conversation is because I believe most Group B fans, or any sort of old race car fans, play these games with insanely difficult to drive cars, find on the internet that these cars killed drivers, and idolize these series to this level. Then, as mentioned before, these people grow to make games and it's this self-fulfilling prophecy of the "real men drive real cars" circlejerk.
New WRC cars are faster, safer and rallies are won by seconds, not minutes and sometimes hours like in the 80s. Same for many other racing series.
People love to complain about dominant cars when it's happening, but will gladly idolize them in the future. Pretty sure it was boring to see Audi nearly win all the time in Group B, but today people love that car.
i was always a bit confused about why people talk about group b as if it had no rules when it's brother, group c, was literally right next to it
The rules of Group B were in fact almost exactly the same as those of Group A, there was just a lower requirement for the number of production cars they needed to make.
@@bduddy55555 the rules indeed were pretty similiar. Group b is cool because of how much technical developement happened in such a short time. The cars were raw and had a lot of power. The cars arent as fast as todays wrc cars but you have to remember that they didnt have the same tires and they had ridicculous turbolag. Modern wrc cars are amazing. I do kinda miss the 2017 cars but the rally 1 cars are really cool aswell
@@0wly I actually dig 2017.-2021. cars over Group B because let's face it,the crazy speed and utter violence shown on stages is something not even Group B can compete with. It was great in it's time but WRC+ cars were more lunatic on stages in comparison.
Its just a bunch of kids that know nothing about rally and only ever watched motorsports through UA-cam highlights
Group b was just a more unsafe and slower version of WRC and people still say that group B is better 😂😂 in diverse lineup of cars yeah lol
todays wrc is unbelievably faster
Yeah, but have you seen all the footage of Michèle Mouton drinking water from a plastic bottle?
My opinion on the estoril myth is that there’s a short layout that cuts out the middle sector and they’re comparing dry rally times to wet f1 times. Then I think it is foreseeable that the delta could beat the f1 cars
Yes - about cut layout. Yes - about wheather conditions. But which is even possible that they compared actually "wet" times by Henri, because 4wd S4 had strong advantages during wet conditions with its insane mechanical grip.
And then myth did all another work..
There is also the possibility that this is taken from a test where the delta s4 had more power than it normally would have had.
Sure the s4 did have upto 800 hp in 86 but much of that power was absolutely unusable because it would have destroyed the tyres
I never shut up about group A, real cars not spaceships, that spawned many amazing cars people are still driving and obsessed with today
Great video, groub b gets dickridden than any other class and for very little to show for it, and I say that as a dude who will die by the opel manta 400 lmao. Even the cultural impact, ask any kid on the street what their favourite rally car is, they’re gonna say subaru, they’re gonna say mitsubishi, some of the more savvy ones might say ford focus or mini cooper. Same for drivers. At least in the UK, if you ask about rallying, chances are the other person will reply “uhh the sport with colin mcrae right?” Group B, at least for the wider general public, did not leave nearly as much of an imprint as Gr. A or the world rally car era.
@@hussar3906 Well... I literally have never heard anybody say their favorite rallycar is anything but an S1 E2. That said, im from Germany and after Audis Exit nobody here cares about Rally...
@@TheNecromancer6666 that’s fair, I assume it is a regional thing then. It is interesting that vw doesn’t have that recognition tho, since it was a far more successful car
@@hussar3906 Yeah, but honestly: if you have the choice between a firebreathing 560hp 5 cylinder Monster and Polo (even though that Polo is really advanced underneath that bodywork) who chooses the Polo? Plus the S1 E2 is one of the best sounding cars. Ever.
@@TheNecromancer6666 can’t disagree with that lmao. That’s half the appeal of group B the sound and visual and its probably the first thing that gets someone into rallying
@@hussar3906 Plus they ran fuel that makes you a bit high when you stand next to the track long enough. In Ingolstadt Audi used to run them around the City Center every years. First your eyes and nose Start to burn and run and then your head gets a bit dizzy 🤣
0:25 I was there when it happened. The NitroRX car clipped too much of the snow bank which was the reason why the Quattro won
Rallying is one of the few sports that never really ‘fell off’ in terms of spectacle imo
"Group B was better because the spectators were also mad. Spectators can't even be too close to the car nowadays"
Yea go talk about that to the FIA WRC Safety Delegate, Michele Mouton herself
tiktok has really ruined everything for me
Especially that troll face edit
Gosh i loathe it
Senil people are not just ruining rally, but also sim racing rally too. I am sick of these guys "back in my day" crap all day every day 🙄
Everything was better back in the day though
the tik-tokification of rally and its consequences have been a disaster for the motorsport community
The evolution of the rally cars between the late seventies and mid eighties, was fantastic.
what this video mostly made me think of is that modern WRC really needs something like slightly spicier Rally2 at the top level, maybe a slightly bigger restrictor, maybe some aero regulation tweaks, but nothing too fancy - keep it simple and more cost-effective, just like Group A after Group B. and also as transparent as possible, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
EDIT: they actually already did this twice - the 2011 cars, as comparatively forgotten as they are nowadays, that kept the lights on for the championship, were basically modified S2000 cars with new engines.
Yeah I 100% agree with WRC moving to a top class of “Rally 2 +”. Former TTE team manager George Donaldson has been openly calling for this for years, and it’s time folks listen to his extremely knowledgeable viewpoint (he’s lost more knowledge than the entirely of our comment section here myself included will ever have). As much as the modern Rally 1 cars are fast, they come with significant drawbacks to the sport namely expense, complexity and well… a lack of a connection to anything. It’s essentially group S with more power. A significant argument to be made that the current Rally 1s are too fast and this force most rallies onto tighter and tighter stages due to FIA mandates on average speed (hence chicanes on various stages). Avoiding going to certain rallies as there will be “too many spectators” or “it will be too fast” isn’t it.
A common silhouette space frame with panels to resemble the actual car (or complete fantasy squishing in the case of the Puma) just isn’t interesting. Neither is 3 or 4 actual drivers paid to complete and the rest tagged along to reach broadcaster contractual limits, with 2.5 manufacturers soon to be 1.5 once Hyundai complete its exit. WRC is in a sad sad state and needs a complete reset. Rally 2+ would be the start, then an overhaul over calendar which is sorely lacking variety beyond gravel rallies with little differentiating between them.
Imo the best wrc era were between the end of the 1990's and the early years of 2000's. So much top drivers, lot of manufacturers (beautiful cars), big fights from stage to stage, kit cars and s1600 machines screamed. It was just perfect.
One thing group b praisers also always talk about is the danger. Entire groups standing on the road this and that, cars crashing and whatsoever. They say it in a way where the spectators standing 5 meters farther back is the problem. Like if u want people to die, wrc is still the most dangerous racing series in the world, for driver and spectators. One wrong move before the jump and ur landing 3 meters to the left and flip the car into a crowd of kids. Group b wasnt more dangerous as wrc, id argue wrc is just as dangerous due to the almost doubling of speed.
I'm not sure about modern WRC being just as dangerous. The structural safety is much higher, the statistics show significantly better safety than ever. Statistically the most dangerous year was 1989.
@ yeah good point. I guess what im trying to say is that group b fans use the fact that wrc isnt as dangerous as group b as an argument for wrc not being good enough to watch or enjoy. But if you compare wrc to other motorsports in the world like f1 or wec. Its like 100 times as dangerous. The difference between wrc and group b is not really noticeable on camera so in my opinion its a really unstable shitty argument.
Were Group B cars awesome? Yes. But do they deserve to be hailed as by far the best rally cars of all time? Nope.
You can just like them more you know, you dont need to make up 💩 and nonsensical alrguments to justify you liking them better
Most important thing is that - Group B wasn't even cars , B meant bicycles.
Hi Failed Racers.
My name is Cameron Greenwood Cramp AKA CGC. I'm an Aussie.
I'm almost 28 years old.
I was born on February 6 1997.
I live in Melbourne in Australia AKA the land down under.
I am the biggest fan of IMSA in the land down under too.
I've been into IMSA for 20 years now.
And I love it.
It's actually my favourite motorsport nowadays along with the World Endurance Championship AKA WEC and MotoGP & the 24 Hours Of Le Mans.
Back in the day, I used to be into all motorsports, but not anymore. It's been like that for the last 10 years also.
My favourite IMSA season is every single one of them.
From the classic original IMSA from 1971 to 1998 and new IMSA from 2014 onwards.
My favourite races in IMSA are the Daytona 24 Hours, the 12 Hours Of Sebring and of course the Watkins Glen 6 Hour held at The Glen.
My favourite World Endurance Championship or WEC for short is every single one from 2012 to present day.
Watkins Glen AKA The Glen in Upstate New York, where they make steamed hams, is the best race track in the United States of America.
Also, Francios Cevert is the greatest French person of all time, apart from Rene Arnoux, Alain Prost, and Albert The 5th Musketeer AKA Albert De Parmagnan.
And also, 1989 is the best Le Mans ever, along with 1965, 1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1981, 1994 and 1995.
The Le Mans 24 Hours is my favourite race of the year and my favourite sporting event of the year too.
Le Mans is my favourite race track in the world along with The Glen AKA Watkins Glen and Bathurst.
Jim Clark and Ayrton Senna are two of my favourite drivers of all time.
They are two of the greatest drivers who ever lived.
Colin McRae and Walter Rohrl & Henri Toivonen are three of my favourite rally drivers of all time.
They're tree of the greatest rally drivers who ever lived.
Burt Munro along with Freddie Spencer are two of my favourite motorcycle riders of all time.
They are two of the greatest motorcycle racers who ever lived.
The Ford GT40 and the Ford Mustang are two of my favourite Ford's of all time.
Two of the best Ford's ever made.
Dale Earnhardt and Richard Petty are two of my favourite NASCAR drivers of all time and two of my favourite Amercians too.
The Dodge Viper RT/10, the McLaren F1 and Mini Cooper are my favourite cars of all time.
Search And Destroy by Iggy Pop And Never Gonna Give You Up by Rick Astley are two of my favourite songs of all time.
Along with Colorado Boy At Heart which is a song that wrote and recorded entirely by myself.
It's also fun little song about Dan Colorado AKA Dan Dougherty who's from Colorado. Cool place.
Albert The 5th Musketeer is my favourite cartoon of all time and The Young Ones is my favourite TV show of all time.
Albert The 5th Musketeer AKA Albert De Parmagnan is my favourite Musketeer too. I'm the 6th Musketeer.
Grand Prix Legends AKA GPL is my favourite game of all time.
The Shawshank Redemption and The Incredibles are two of my favourite movies of all time.
1967, 1976, 1989, 1991 and 1997 are five of my favourite Formula 1 Seasons of all time.
James Hunt, Nigel Mansell, Barry Sheene, Striling Moss, Mike Hawthorn and Ken Miles n David Purley are my favourite Brits of all time.
Dan Gurney is my favourite big tall guy.
And also, Dan Gurney is my favourite person with the name Dan too, apart from Dan Wheldon and Dan Colorado AKA Dan Dougherty too.
Chris Amon and Lloyd Ruby are two of my favourite drivers who were great despite having a bad luck reputation.
On Any Sunday and The World’s Fastest Indian are two of my favourite motorcycle films of all time along with Race For Glory and of course Silver Dream Racer.
David Purley AKA David Charles Purley is my definition of an absolute hero.
Kork Ballington and Jody Scheckter along with Jon Ekerold are three of my favourite guys from South Africa.
My favourite female racers are Penelope Pitstop and Janet Guthrie & Dancia Patrick.
Ford VS Ferrari, Rush, Senna, Grand Prix, Le Mans, Race For Glory: Audi VS Lancia, Days Of Thunder, Talladega Nights and The Love Bug & The Last American Hero are my favourite car movies of all time. The Driver as well.
My favourite Australians are Jack Brabham, Peter Brock and Mark Skaife.
Bruce McLaren, Burt Munro, Chris Amon, Denny Hulme are my favourite Kiwi's of all time.
Also, Lorenzo Bandini and Valentino Rossi are my favourite Italian's of all time.
Jacky Ickx is my favourite all around driver and my favourite person from Belgium.
Aguri Suzuki is my favourite person and driver from Japan. Great country.
Ronnie Peterson is my favourite Swedish person and the greatest person from Sweden too.
Ayrton Senna, Emerson Fittipaldi and Nelson Piquet are three of my favourite Brazilian guys and three of the greatest Brazilian's who ever lived.
Henri Toivonen is my favourite Finnish person and the greatest person from Finland.
Pedro Rodriguez is my favourite Mexican of all time and the greatest Mexican ever.
Jim Clark, Colin McRae and Jackie Stewart are three of my favourite drivers from Scotland and three of the best Scotsman ever.
1971, 1982, 1992, 1995 are four of my favourite Indianapolis 500's of all time.
Jaques and Gilles Villeneuve are two of my favourite Canadians of all time and two of the best Canadians too. And Jeremy Dale.
1992, 1995, 1997 (CART) are three of the best IndyCar Seasons ever and three of my favourites.
1979 is my favourite Daytona 500 ever along with 1997 and 1998 & 1976.
The 1979 Daytona 500 is also my favourite NASCAR race of all time apart from the 1992 Hooters 500.
1979, 1992, 1996, 1997 are four of my favourite Nascar seasons.
1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980. 1984. 1994, 1995, 1999, 2003 are favourite Bathurst 1000's of all time.
1993 to 2007 & 2013 are my favourite V8 Supercars seasons ever.
Two of the greatest male cartoon racers are Speed Racer and Tom Slick and two of my favourite male cartoon drivers too.
1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1982, 1984, 1997, 2003, 2012 and 2014 are my favourite Daytona 24 Hours and are the best as well.
1966, 1967, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1983 and 1995 & 2012 are my favourite Sebring 12 Hours and are the best too.
Niki Lauda and Jochen Rindt are two of my favourite Austrians and two of the best people from Austria.
Juan Manuel Fangio and Carlos Reutemann are two of the best Argentina racers and two of my favourites from Argentina.
Clay Regazzoni and Jo Siffert & Alain Menu are my three favourite Swiss people. Three of my favourite drivers from Switzerland.
Steve Kinser is my favourite Sprint Car Driver of all time. Like with most people.
1982 to 1986 which were Group B, along with 1995, 1998, 2001 and 2003 are my favourite World Rally Championship's AKA WRC's.
1998, 1997, 1995, 1994 and 2018 are five of my favourites in the British Touring Car Championship.
1966, 1967, 1970, 1971 and 1989 are my favourite World Sportscar Championship's AKA WSC's
Every single 500cc season was and is my favourite Grand Prix Motorcycle Racing Season, especially the ones that Freddie Spencer was in.
And finally....
Walter Rohrl is my favourite German and easily the best guy from Germany.
:)
FINALLY SOMEONE HAS BROUGHT THIS UP
This is why we need Rallycross Supercars in stage rally. Now those would be crazy fast.
Every era of rally is unique and underrated. Group 4 had a variety of cars still unmatched, RWD saloon cars, Rear engine cars like the 911 or the Alpine A110, mid engine wedge like the stratos and the first 4wd (Audi Quattro). Group A gave us some of the best road going omologation cars like the Lancia Delta Integrale, Impreza WRX, Lancer Evo, Escort Cosworth, Celica Gt-Four etc. WRC era had some of the best and competitive seasons, especially in the late 90s - early 00s with McRae, Makinen, Sainz, Burns, Gronholm etc
If you think Group B fans are insufferable, just be glad Group S never saw the light of day.
wow, that video with the electric car with spikey slicks on snow was ridiculous. they totally only made that race to talk shit about electric cars
Group B is crazy not because Group B is crazy, its because rally itself is crazy. People are quick to jump to conclusions like "Oh Group B was the best rally division because it was so fast!" like bro all rally divisions were, and are, fast.
About the FC1-X studded tires: this was a makeshift solution needed to retrofit the Nitrocross slick for a couple snow and ice rounds. It was purely a compromise to use the tires they already had.
Group A and 1997-2008 was far better era for Rallying, that was real Golden Era. Real Men who did go flat out and gave us great entertainment. Advice to So called Group B, "know the era, you belong to".
Group Boomer: Understeer was for men
Was thinking Group Bellend but Group Boomer is perfect :D
Pretty bullshit when Delta S4 could enter the chat (for the bolide that have all possible behavior, just depends of pilot's will, skill and intentions).
Just do not use this typical generalisation and better go to watch modern videos of GrB Lancia's with modern tyres.
Jeez, i said like a little bit boomer, lol. But hey, clear understeer is all and almost only about Quattro S1 (menacing but loser-like competitor of its time)
@@sometimesidreamaboutcheeses4's in hillclimbs with modern tyres are insane
@@0wly Fun fact is that ones competing currently are owned by Bruno Ianniello,who back when he was in his prime also won many races and championships with S4 and actually built his own hillclimb spec unit out of Stradale S4,which is road version.
Im not an expert on rally cars. But I am on LMP cars. Just for perspective on official powerclaims by manufacturers in motorsport: in 2010 Audi claimed to have 600hp and 1050Nm in the R15. The acceleration curve and the Topspeed prove they ran 750hp and 1300Nm in racetrim and could turn ut up to 800hp when needed. Thats a cool 25% over the claim. I would strongly advise everybody to just add 25% to every manufacturer powerclaim in Motorsport. Unless the class is fuel flow regulated, then you can do math with the energy flow. Audi claimed 571hp in the 2015 R18 RP5. With the 50% thermal efficiency they had on that Diesel they will have had at least 640-650hp....
The current Rally1 cars are just completely insane. So much faster than Gr.B, but not undrivable pieces of junk you need to nurse around to not break them and to not die. The racing is very close and honestly much more exciting than ever before.
The hybrid management is also a massive thing and hard to execute right, but i still think the sport will be better when the hybrid system is gone
Current state of Rally1 has shown maybe not trying to bringing back Gr. B isn't that bad at all.
And even if it wasn't Corsica accident, Group B would be short lived anyway.
Escalating costs would drive manufacturers away, switch to Group A with ease, and Group S would still remain unraced.
Yes, FINALLY! I extend this sentiment to other 80s/90s racing classes.
- 90s F1 had more electronics than current F1 and the races were boring as hell most of the time.
- Group C drivers rarely went flat out beyond qualifying, races were decided by several laps and wheel to wheel racing was rare.
. BTCC supertouring races were shown as edited highlight reels of the best moments with at least partially scripted commentary by Murray Walker, and the series still produces fantastic door-banging racing to this day (you'd think it died after 2000 the way people talk about it).
- 90s DTM had weight penalties and performance adjustments from the governing body, so anyone who claims BoP "kills" racing is ignorant at best.
Oh, and there's articles from Wild West times about "real men" no longer being a thing, I despise that whole narrative.
thing about Group C is that it has always been a fuel consumption run, so it's either they push first before conserving to the finish or wait it out at the beginning before making a mad dash to them
that's where the real deal of prototype racing comes in, the IMSA GTP that is
confused Michelle Mouton at 13:54 was so funny
Guy is literally drifting around a F1 Car..
Intersting thing about Group B is the fact that if it could go further there is a chance that all the cars would evolve into something very simmilar in basics: short wheel base, mid engine, preferably hatch body, thus killing the myth about uniqness of Group B. We've seen that with Lancia, Peugeot and Metro.
If toivonen wouldn't have crashed they had a new regulation set called group s with at least 8 manufacturer interested In taking part in it.
@@samuelebarberi8631 Which would have crashed out by 1990 due to spiralling costs, Toyota's 222D was shelved before the cancellation even came out and Audi's Group C Quattro was developed in secret because the higher ups didn't want to spend money on it.
Group B is like the 2JZ engine, both phenomenal in their own right but people tend to put these things on these massive pedestals and overglorify them to the heavens which honestly doesnt even really feel appreciative of what the things they are glorifying actually excel at...
So true, 2JZ is way too much hyped...
Nissan RB26DETT is just as good - if not even better!
why did you even bother making this video? most the people saying this dont have the attention span for it, because all the group b compilations are tiktok edits
The confusion comes from thinking about this as a sports event. I'd suggest, one has to think about it as a spectacle, a circus on wheels, a motorsports improv-theater with open outcome. The idea was, you combine a very diverse set of vehicle concepts with individual strengths and weaknesses (front, mid, rear engined, rwd, awd, naturally aspirated, supercharged, turbocharged, both; you'd get saloon cars, hatchbacks, sportscars of all shapes, some heavy but reliable, some fragile but super fast, some really strong in traction, some way better in corners, some brutish to drive, some elegant and refined like a scalpel...) , piloted by a literal comicbook hero collection of drivers: the brawling-and-drinking oldschool scandinavian, the rallye professor, the fast, hot and smart girl, the ascetic, reserved perfectionist german, the working-class no-nonsense brit, the daredevil hotheaded young maverick - each bringing their own, very distinct style of rallying, all very dear to their fanbase, and all of them talking openly about their experiences with not a terribly large regard for sponsors' or management wishes.
Even the teams were ranging from family affairs and lovable goofs, to stylish, seemingly laid-back gigolos with gold chains and sunglasses, to professional works teams in matching jumpsuits lead by technocrats - again, all with their strengths and weaknesses; you allow them to pick their fights (in several seasons the scoring system was to count only the x best outcomes, leaving the drivers free to skip a number of rallyes without any problem whatsoever) according to their abilities, and you make the whole thing a test of endurance, wit and willpower - these were Hemingway's fights against nature, machine and human all combined into one, instead of normal sporting events. And you wouldn't just have it concentrated in 'good' places where the cameras would get nice footage and you could collect spectator fees, you would literally try to spread it out over entire countries to reach everyone, making those rallyes even more of an endurance match, and making the heros even more reachable and understandable to everyone as they all had to pass through people's backyards to make it to the next stage. If you've ever come across an extreme endurance event in your backyard, that's where you really start to notice what these people are doing. The outcome was definitely unpredictable and exciting each time, in some rallyes even local heros in way lesser cars may have challenged the world elite, and certainly anyone's predictions would change heavily with weather, road conditions, quality of recon, etc. You'd get to see crazy comebacks, awesome feats of driving, the saddest of failures, odyssean tricks, unlikely winners and ecstatic fans. That was what happened, and that's why people remember these differently.
Nowadays, we have strictly regulated cars, very high level (and very similar) performance everywhere, which may make for close stage times, but if someone combines a good driver with a top team it may happen, as it did, that fans need to memorize only two last names (and incidentially only one first name) to list the winners of just about all WRC championships 2004-2021 (except 2019). Perfection and performance is not what makes for the most exciting motorsports, especially not rallye. I take it they're trying to make it a bit more colorful again, by adding that hybrid and so on, but I think if those days of the rally circus are gone, what with regulations and noise complaints and so on, and with manufacturees not putting their whole identity into this and making it their focus of motorsports activity- as Audi did, as Lancia did, as Peugeot did...
To underline that point of variety and unpredictability (not to call it competitiveness), I did count the event winners for several years, to represent different eras.
Number of individual winners, and vehicle models used by winners:
1982: 7 drivers, 5 cars
1983: 6 drivers, 4 cars
1984: 6 drivers, 4 cars
1985: 6 drivers, 5 cars
1986: 8 drivers, 4 cars
--- end of group B era---
1990: 6 drivers, 3 cars
1995: 4 drivers, 3 cars
2000: 5 drivers, 5 cars
2005: 4 drivers, 3 cars
2010: 4 drivers, 2 cars
2015: 4 drivers, 2 cars
2020: 5 drivers, 2 cars
2024 (yet): 5 driver, 2 cars
So I think it's clear - in an event during the Group B days, the actual competition for the win went on between a larger number of drivers and cars, whereas nowadays - real competition exists only between two top cars and a much smaller number of drivers. The chance to see large, well equipped teams actually compete with each other was dropped somewhere along the way... Nowadays you're lucky if there are even two teams competing at a similar level - in several recent seasons (2021, 2023, 2024) it's more like "the top team wins all events, except for two".
@@decnet100 When comparing the number of winners and winning manufactuers, the fact that all drivers were part timers is kinda relevant too.
@@FailedRacers General rule of thumb: Drivers didn't usually skip the events where they figured they had a good chance of winning.
Well, the part-timer bit is at any rate a definite misrepresentation - part timer sounds like either their team didn't have the resources to attend all events (clearly untrue, as all top teams DID attend all events regularly, with understandable exceptions such as fatal accidents), or the drivers weren't "all in" about Rallying - something you might have in mind about Walter Röhrl - a driver who didn't care about the championship so much as about single events and HATED the media buzz surrounding the championship, but actually LIVED for rallying - he did soooo many events throughout his life - from 1980 to 1985, he attended 64 events, and he had done more than 100 during the 1970s, according to eWRC-results. In fact, most of the drivers did not use the time off for rest, they attended other quite profitable or otherwise appealing rallyes apart from the championship schedule - and to do so, the top drivers were usually contractually able to skip one or more which they didn't think they had good chances at - Mouton skipped 1 out of 12 in 1982 and 1983, and did two additional rallyes (won all of them), even though she lived through 7 accidents in the previous two seasons including a bad rollover and the car catching fire; Röhrl skipped half the calender in 1984 at his entry with Audi, but actually partook in 11 rallyes; Toivonen did 13 events 1984, Mikkola did 13 rallyes in 1983 and 15 rallyes in 1984. Blomqvist did a total of 17 events in 1983, all but one of those in Audi Quattros, and 20 events in 1982 - but not exclusively in Quattros, he raced a lot of Talbot Sunbeam Lotus back than. At any rate: Part-time rallye drivers, those were not, quite the opposite.
Please also remember that these rallyes were A LOT longer distance than modern events (as you know) and went significantly longer, usually about 5-7 days of actual competition, with the top team usually spending at least a week ahead in recce and prepwork, and two weeks back home for testing and dev - depending on your position in the team, Rallye back in those days was just as much all year round, as today - probably even more so.
Rallye Portugal 2024: 337km / 1690km, 22 stages; Portugal 1984: 685km / 2399km, 45 stages
Monte Carlo 2024: 324km/ 1649km total 17 stages; Monte Carlo 1985: 851km / 3999km total, 34 stages.
Rallye Safari 2024: 355km timed/1300km total, 19 stages; Rallye Safari 1984: 5205km timed/5205km total, no idea how this was even staged - have to imagine all those situations where people would definitely need to fill up, sleep, or take a leak badly, while the clock was running... Imagine trying to relieve yourself into a bottle while your driver is driving at considerable pace, without your roadbook, on bumpy Kenyan roads...
I mean, fatigue was clearly much more of a factor than today, as were accidents with injuries, which were way more common back then - and since post-race recovery in many cases consisted of having loads of beers with your mates and sports doctors, physiotherapists or even nutritionists were few and far in between, those things actually added up. It's not like people were slacking off as this makes it sound. Or that there was no top level competition between the attending drivers at the events, which is obviously nonsense.
The point is that by modern standards they were all part timers because none of them competed in all rounds, and some teams didn't go to certain rounds, especially the African rounds that would usually be won by the RWD cars that couldn't win elsewhere since all the top teams didn't show up, so the variety of winners was always going to be bigger.
@@FailedRacers what is that supposed to mean, by modern standards someone is a "part timer" if they drive 15 or 17 rallyes a year, or hundreds of rallyes in a decade, all of which are about twice as long as modern events? Who in modern days does that? The argument is nonsense. What do you think would have happened if these top drivers who did 11 out of 12 attended all the events - if you forced for example Röhrl to drive Kenya and Finland. Do you think he would have won? I'm telling you as a huge fan of Walter, no chance. He tried that in his Opel and Fiat years - it was not his terrain, he couldn't treat the cars like these events required the drivers to do.
This is the modern sports mindset - there's a fast driver in a fast car, they should have chances everywhere - no. Different vehicle concepts, different reliability, different driving styles, different quality of preparation for the surfaces. As I said, the field was simply more diverse, and there were more contestants.
Remember, even at Kenya or Cote d'Ivoire, the top teams with the 037, Quattro, 205 were always there, made their appearance with two or three cars - it's just that they didn't win, as their constructions wouldn't make it through 5000+km of timed gravel/mud stage as well as the rugged Toyotas and Nissans would.
The biggest difference that made the field more open and competitive was that more manufacturers pushed into this than nowadays, and went "the competition is going to be hard, we don't expect the others to drop out from the championship any time soon, we're pushing through anyway - for now we have good chances at Rallye x with our car, that counts as a win already". And that's simply not what's happening today. Now it's "only the championship counts, so oh let's wait until the current big player has had enough, so our team can easily become winners and the marketing department is happy - we'll have really close competition between the drivers in our own team, that's going to keep the fans happy".
I think that group a was called underpowered due to a comment Walter Rörl did 1987. that he was underwhelmed by the power of the gruppe A car he had and hence forth he was quitting his rally career
Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about! Thank you for putting this video up.
"WRC is for kids, Groub B is for men"
First off, Groub B featured (arguably) the most notable female racing driver in history
Second off, isn't Groub B like... a category of WRC?
When Juha Kankkunen said it, I'm assuming he was referring to World Rally Cars, the regs from 1996-2021, but lots of these Group B fans think Group B was its own championship.
Michèle Mouton is an honorary man... evidenced by the fact that no other woman has ever come close to her achievement.
@@mattmattmatt131313 it isn't a warning of its impossibility, but a sign that another one and many more will appear... eventually
@@LotsOfToubleUsuallySerious It isn't impossible just very improbable. Just as it isn't impossible that a randomly selected woman out of the population is stronger than a man, it's just very unlikely.
saying back in the 80 rally drivers were real man (and real woman in person of Michele Mouton) is like saying that Carlos Saints who is still active as a rally driver at age of 62 is not a real men or maybe Colin McRea wasn't a real man going by way if in doubt flat out?
The reason people love Group B so much is, at the end of it, the aesthetic. Those cars looked cool and each was unique and you could immediately tell them apart from one another.
Modern rally cars all look samey, though that is not a problem with WRC but with the automotive industry as a whole as they are based on cars the manufacturers sell.
Exactly and it may be simple/primitive thinking but the appeal of motorsport as a whole for me is to watch awesome looking and sounding cars going fast. If the cars aren't cool and all look the same, it's just not that exciting to watch and it doesn't matter if they are faster than ever or not.
Even if differences aren't as notable as in group b, current cars don't look that much each other... Is a downer in modern car industry in overall, but not that in wrc really. Rules are more strict, having 3-cyl engine while others have 4-cyl is propably as big of a difference as they allow - but many technical treats and differences still exist. Besides, for example Yaris GR that can buy from dealer is one damn sexy car, honestly even if cheaper I'd rather own that instead of any group b road version car.
Other than the 5-cyl engine sound, not sure if there's much to miss... current cars are just so much faster, whole another level.
All i can say is big thank you for this video and for realistic aspect with which it was made and for going for facts and not a telltale stuff.
First video i see about Group B without overhyping it and for looking at the category with grounded point of view. Again,props for making it.
I think it's a matter of nostalgia and perceived speed. The old footage of a Lancia Delta roaring down the stages evoke a sense of greatness and the "struggle" those cars had to keep a proper racing line makes them more dramatic to watch. That also gives a sense of speed and weight. Moreover, for a long time we have heavy weight brands competing like Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Audi, Renault, Citroen, Opel... the Europeans brand have completely disappeared in WRC1 and lost all significance
I'd say it's a mind trick that happens in all sports. We have a slide show of great memories from the past, a series of highlights, because a brain does a good job at deleting boring content to free space for the good stuff.
I remember the Schumacher times as glorious in F1 and yet if I stop and think a little more all the boring races come to mind as well... It's the same in rally
You aren't wrong but one cannot deny that older motorsport was more diverse and cars were simply more awesome than they are today.
I don't want to bad mouth Group B as I still love them, and I think in that era they were savage machines (like in those days, in Europe a hatch with 100 - 150 hp were performance cars. Now 100 - 150 hp, it's nothing special anymore. But the thoughts of a Opel Kadett gsi 16v or a Renault 5 turbo, etc, still make me feel good.)
But I agree with you. The other day, I watched a video about Group B. Sure enough, someone commented that they should bring back Group B but without the spectators. I explained that the modern Rally 1 car are kinda Group B cars with their tubular space frames and with a combined ICE/ hybrid power of 500+ hp. Also, with their aero body kits, they also kinda look like Group B's. I also commented that the cars after the Group B were faster on the stages.
I have noticed that UA-cam becomes polluted with Group B video's uploaded by people with no knowledge about WRC and Group B or rally in general. It just becomes click bait!!!!
This basically the same thing when it comes to nascar fans that says " the cars is not stock and these drivers are not good compared to dale Earnhardt , these drivers dont have personality" bunch of bums.
I dont think that group B is overrated, but it is a very boomer thing to stick to the "wrc is for boys, group B is for men"
And just the stupid amount of praising for group B, its amazing... but... so was group A, so still is WRC, R5, F2 kit cars and whatever they use in Scandinavian Rally scenes xD
I was kinda expecting ine of those "Please stop liking this" videos but I'm actually pleasantly surprised.
I love Group B, it's an incredible era that gave birth to cars that likely wouldn't have existed - at least not in the same capacity had it not happened, but the idea that WRC "sucks" because it can't do what Group B did is just ridiculous.
Group B is an era to respect and look back on, but it shouldn't be used as an example and reason to hate newer generations of rally racing.
Without Group B we likely wouldn't have the modern rally racing we have now, so be grateful the sport still exists, Group B very well could've been the end of all rally racing as much as it was a pioneer of modern rally racing too, restrictions and safety precautions to make drivers and crowds safer is not a bad thing, it is a good thing.
Group A was peak for me, the cars were exciting to watch the way they were driven plus the fact you could actually buy a close variant if you had enough money
I’m just going to leave this here;
Metro 6R4 (being driven hard by a competent rally driver)
2.41 60ft 34.33 finish time
2.14 31.54
2.04 32.25
2.02 31.35
Volvo C30 full weight road car (driven by me, baby seat in back, 316bhp, road tyres)
2.81 35.17
2.75 32.77
2.76 32.80
2.63 32.06
0.71 seconds difference between us, and 0.61 of that was purely launching off the start line (4WD vs open diff FWD), meaning a full on Group B 6R4 posts basically the same times as a Volvo.
Oh and just for laughs from the same event;
Impreza S12 WRC
2.19. 30.25
2.14. 29.41
2.18. 28.88
2.17. 28.69
(Using launch control with Rocket ALS!)
Just a minor nitpick, the 6R4 you were up against is a "Clubman" variation produced after 1986, they only made 300HP and were drastically slower than the 86 variants for obvious reasons.
Not to discount anything
Quick note of the Quattro va electric car, and multiple other Group B cars: many ”real” Group B cars you see in show runs, rallies, and other events are not real Group B cars. Especially many Audis, but also multiple Lancias, Peugeots, and others are replicas. Furthermore, some ”Group B” cars take liberties in what technology they run underneath. For example, seeing a 4WD Group B car do a handbrake turn is a sure way to know it’s not even a replica but a reimagination, as the technology required to cut off rear diff by handbrake was brought into WRC by Toyota in 1989.
The point is, sometimes these ”real” Group B cars you see nowadays are replicas, sometimes they run different engine block, transmission, differencial, turbo, etc. and offer no real comparison to the originals.
Another note of the drivers being ”full time”. The schedule, with longer events and longer recces, made it so that not every driver had the time to contest all events in the calendar.
Furthermore, not all events in the calendar were calculated into the final points for drivers or manufacturers. For example, the Ivory Coast round of 1988 championship was won by a FWD Renault 5 GT Turbo Group A car that had zero competitiveness against Lancia or Mazda, or even BMW for that matter. Ivory Coast did not count towards driver’s championship, and with the unfortunate timing, factories skipped it. This was common in the 80s and 90s, and that’s why some events had ”odd” winners and little to no factory entries.
Great video! I half expected engagement bait but that clearly isn't the case.
Also about the "big balls" argument, not long ago a driver said something along the lines of "in Finland, if I don't feel like I could die the next turn then I'm not going fast enough". I think it was in response to Craig Breen's passing :( It's not very different from Group B at all is it?
Thanks for debunking "Golden era of rallying" it will definitely get people to know this amazing motorsport and it's history better
A lot of Group B fans tend to ignore the cultural popuality the WRC had during the Group A and Early WRC period during the late 90s and early 2000s. Video games, RC cars of Focuses, Imprezas, Evos and 206s in the shops, the names of the drivers were household names (especially Colin McRae and Richard Burns in the UK) and I remember the WRC was on the telly a lot of the time in a lot of homes. I remember Rally Portigual during 2000 had a few cancelled stages because of the huge crowd of spectators. Seeing coverage on TV shows how many people were at the stages, which shows the claim "Rallying died after 1986" is a total myth.
Put a Subaru Impreza 555 Group A car on the same stage with an Audi Quattro, most of the time it will decimate the Quattro. Technology always improves as time goes on. Despite I stopped watching rallying for decades now, those new Rally 1 cars are the fastest cars to ever exist in the WRC, sometimes it's better to acknowledge the facts and put off the rose tinted glasses.
A good point of comparison is modern GT3 cars. They’re not super fast in terms of top speed and acceleration, but their aero and cornering capabilities are so strong they can still make good pace anyway
Yes they easily match the pace of GT1 cars (not talking about 1997 and 1998 cause those were a mix of GT's and LMP's really).
However I don't like the fact they never renamed them into GT1 and now there's a GT2 class that is slower than the GT3 class.
@@real765rp8lowkey disappointed with SRO's GT2's pace when compared to the GT3's
and I certainly think that GT1 will be very difficult to revive, since it's all about that supercars modified into racecars yadda yadda. like y'know, ferrari f40, mclaren f1, the purpose built gt1 cars made for the homologation itself like the CLK GTR Straßenversion, the '911' GT1, the R390 and the 1 of fucking 1 toyota gt-one
or maybe it's difficult to revive GT1 but not that difficult when you look at the 2000s GT1 racecars and their road goings
If someone asked me which was for me the best eras of WRC, I would answer the begin of Group A until now.
If see you well, we had also good eras on that time:
Group A - The rebirth after Group B, with better safety and new rules
F2 Kit Cars - The literal kings of Tarmac with famous names like Gilles Panizzi and Philippe Bugalski (RIP), such as 306 Maxi, Ibiza and others, beating cars like Subaru and Evos
Seb Loeb golden era: Everyone trying to beat this mf but is the most recorded rally driver of all time
And finally, kiddos destroyed and overhyped Group B
In short, boomer nostalgia is cringe
Your comment is cringe, for the use of the word Boomer 😂
boomer nostalgia ? the eighties ? xD
Finally a video dispelling the myths surrounding group B. I have been to several rallies in person and one of them had a Group B 6R4 in it. Such a cool car and it was surprisingly fast for how old it was but the modern R5s, 2L WRC, 1.6 pre 2017 WRC and group A cars there were significantly faster and more exciting to watch.
If you want to see how exciting just watching modern WRC cars are have a look at recent videos from Rally Finland. Absolutely crazy stuff
I get the your point. But: If you have ever seen, heard felt and smelt those cars you can't overrate them. I have even driven one. Absolutely insane.
WRC1 cars are almost as insane and awesome to watch. If you can go to a rally PLEASE do it!!! But just not that visceral. But want to know something: that's the same with every modern car. Modern perfection makes them less exciting. That's not a bad thing though. And, trust men those 380hp 1,6 Liter 4 pots in WRC1 cars Sound great. And are hilariously loud. Louder then most other modern racing series.
Group B are awesome. So is WRC1. And while I will always come to see Group B cars driven around, that doesn't take anything away from WRC1. The only criticism with WRC1 is that the engines are almost identical. I would prefer more variety.
0:24 that's a great boomer impersonation!
Manufacturers didn't drop the WRC by 1986. In fact, many renewed their commitment to the series, with many others announced their intentions to join the series.
1. Peugeot
2.Lancia
3. Ford
4. Toyota
5. Skoda
7. Audi
8. MG
Majority launched and tested group S prototypes (a group b with more relaxed homogolation requirements)
The only one decided to scrap their projects and leave was Audi and their reason was safety concerns and brand association with fatal accidents. It was not cost nor technical complexity
You are right but you are imprecise, for instance. A rally car, modern or not can technically pull up faster than a F1 car but it is not faster, just faster to accelerate up to a point where it has to shift gears which are indeed very short after the start and then it gradually becomes much slower, but.
I think rally cars could be faster than a F1 car, just in a straight line, if the rally cars simply had more powerful engines (weight in a straight line doesn't matter as much if that straight line is "infinitely" long and if for instance the heavier vehicle's engine has more power) which the same argument to be made about GroupB cars compared to other and more modern era rally cars is the same. GroupB would be faster in a straight line, not in and through corners. Also a minor point of contempt is that F1 cars couldn't technically rally due to their low distance from the ground up, therefore they would break down on a rally stage regardless of how fast they are, even if they were raised to be higher from the ground up. They are simply too fragile for rallying and are totally based and focused on circuit racing, but.. GroupB and F1 are the same though in terms of engineering where GroupB basically for the period of '81 to '86 had no restrictions and F1 basically works in similar ways and has restrictions in place in context of one another (one F1 car to another + budget restrictions these days) but beyond that F1 cars are the fastest racing cars in the world with allegedly the best drivers in the world. (we can argue that rally drivers are better drivers than F1 drivers)
This is often the point of contempt as again I've stated if rally, GroupB cars would have evolved, the question then is: how would things be now, then?
So now a second thing that I've noticed is, you're comparing 80's cars with for instance 90's or 2000 and above rally cars which technically isn't fair because obviously cars, rally cars that are post '86 era have had improvements and technical improvements specifically like far superior: suspension, lighter and stronger materials and better safety, perhaps even superior aerodynamics (making the drivers be able to push them harder) that makes them superior to the GroupB cars because the advancements of those had ceased in the 80's. So if, and there were more improvements planned but due to the events and how these unfolded in the 80's and then specifically in '86 for the GroupB cars, we of course never got to see the improved Group B rally cars in action which would have had, just like their circuit counterparts of F1: 1000BHP engines and that is also a point of contempt, that we could argue that GroupB cars had superior engines than the modern WRC cars who are often and most of the years or era's or whatever one calls them, capped at around 300BHP, so to say: If GroupB was further developed and had evolved up to the modern day;
1: WRC might have been more popular
2: Drivers might have had gotten better at controlling them, which is arguably debatable but this comes out of the idea that each concurrent generation is in some way better than the older one, which I'm referring to people (unless we address the safety and technological improvements part of the cars themselves) and:
3: GroupB cars would have been much faster than anything else on rally stages, I think at least so _if_ they were developed further and had no limits like in the 80's. "No limits" here has a caveat, because no limit means; _up to a certain limit,_ because there is no going beyond that; a certain limit. I think.
So, I think that when people refer to GroupB being the fastest rally cars in some ways they are right (I think they are definitely right when it comes to the engines themselves because these I think were works of marvel and very powerful, more powerful than anything else in WRC then and perhaps even now, minus the new Hybrides {maybe}) and people who argue against this are also in some ways right, lol. We just need to be very anal and technical and above all very specific and precise about this because it's not about facts always but it's also about hypothetical scenarios, like: _if, if if..._ Like… If this then that and if that then this and so on, and so on.
What in rallying thought might have been faster than anything else, including both the regular WRC cars and the GroupB are the mythical Kit Cars, but this as we say is a topic for another time. ;)
what good is top speed If you cannot fully utilise the power & handle it under pressure?
Also the difference in driving technique vs now. Back then no group b cars really had a hydraulic handbrake.
Group B? How about you Group my (B)alls?