Enjoying myself honing my Facharbeit with convex honed I shaped using your concave plate with a coticule I purchased from you and a Japanese natural to finish. I love the edges I get using this method and I couldn’t achieve satisfactory results with flat hones. I have a coarse beard and sensitive skin. Convex hones rock!!! Love the textbook as well. Thanks for everything!
The flat hone guys all agree that changes in spine thickness, which affect the bevel angle, have a noticeable effect on the shave. If that's true, why wouldn't changing the bevel angle by honing with a convex hone also affect the shave? Seems pretty simple to me.
You're comparing a flat bevel and a compound bevel as if they're equal, but the angle at the tip of the bevel is only one element of its creation - also important is a bevel's SHAPE, its apex refinement, and how much of its span behind the apex remains narrower than the diameter of an average strand of hair. If you only grind down the spine, as you suggest, and then do your work on flat references, yes you'll have a more acute inclusive cutting angle °, but NOT a hollow ground bevel. You lose all of the flexibility advantages that the hollow ground bevel creates. Only a wheel or wheel shaped device grinding in to the bevel itself can make a hollow ground bevel. It is much more important for the bevel to have a hollow grind than to have a lowest possible cutting angle, in fact Böker of late has taken to grinding quite a bit more bevel concavity than in the recent past, and then they finish on a CONCAVE finishing stone, making the actual cutting angle tip LARGER than would be present if the bevel had been entirely created with flat whetstones, but because it is backed by such thin steel it still has all the crucial flexibility advantages. This is sort of like what Thiers-Issard has done for years; they first cut in their bevel with the two convex discs rotating in opposite directions (the greenish slate wheels with their broad, but slightly convex, sides facing the ceiling), then they refine that on a huge slightly convex slate bench stone (its diameter is longer than the wheels things' diameters), then they finish on a pasted strop which is gently concave, thus making a thin fine bevel with a tiny bit of convexity at its very tip, ideal for upkeep with a pasted strop. Yes, certainly, a more acute angle is always better, *if the steel can hold up to it*, and that is an "if" which is heavily influenced not only by the metallurgy but more crucially by the razor administrator's abilities to prep/lather, to stretch skin, to choose a low angle of incidence of blade to skin, and most crucially to strop well. It is a hard road to hoe and you're better off favoring the high side of ~15-18° and going for maximum concavity just behind that apex.
Jarrod one thing that i think must be put forward is that making a proper concave edge is not that easy at all, it’s actually quite difficult to start getting good results, it actually took me a couple of months before i started to get the good results i got. I wasn’t getting good results until i introduced the mid radius coticule , the binocular microscope to see what i was doing and the convex pasted strops. After that i got the best shaves i ever got but after a couple of shaves looking at the edge under my binocular microscope i could see micro chips starting to appear but i believe that has to do with the quality of the steel and heat treatment.
I have not struggled, but to be fair, my progression went from first trying hand-sculpted soft coticules, then spherical concave piece of granite on Arkansas stones, then the 3-step method I use now. I sold a lot of spherically shaped Arkansas stones and coticules before I begin understanding the ellipse, and nobody seemed to have trouble with them, but with a diameter effect of nearly 9mØ, you were never asking much of the razor to begin with. I have tried very hard the last ~5yrs to get micro-chipping to happen after concaving the razor edge. I lost a lot of blades in the fire, but here in the office there are ~40 razors, all of them have been concaved and shaved with several times afterwards, some more touching up, etc. Only two have I seen foils/chipping on the apexes, one of them is stainless modern razor (the only such piece I have, so I suspect it has inferior metallurgy) and one is a Dovo Sunday Shaver right at the very thin part of its heel where the razor's width is the largest of the whole 6.5cm cutting edge span and there is also no support of a shoulder. That second razor, the Dovo SS, does show bad foil edge when I have used it, put away, and check days later, but if I strop it again and look at the edge, the foil part is facing away from the spine in opposition, and it shaves very well. So I would rather have the razor this way than thicker and no foils problem. This SS I have owned and used for +6yrs now, I had honed it many times, it shaves better with this thin fragile edge than it ever did before, also on the strop it sounds different, too. An isolated micro-chipping would be a different story, especially if that is in the middle of the cutting edge on a razor with a shoulder/stabilizer, if you are sure there was no debris/impediment on the stone or the razor this likely means it cannot hold the concavity you are asking and the steel is just splitting away like a dandelion spore breaking off, you've asked too much concavity from that particular piece of steel. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't keep asking "how much concavity can you take?" of razors in general. Whatever they can accept, minus one notch for preservation, will be my preferred shape to use. In a three step shape, I think the vast majority of razors can accept a 2mØ effect for the rear 50% of a bevel span, the first most delicate 50% of bevel can accept a 5mØ, usually all the way to the end if you are so inclined...but I would agree, finishing all the way through to the apex with arcs is really not necessary for most people (my very best shaves are indeed from this way, however we don't know if I'm just getting a better final strokes by random luck). On a Sheffield razor I have shaped them to 1mØ the whole way and they never chip or fatigue, however their steel was treated, it was the best way [the ones which say BEST BEST BEST on the rear are supposedly with a quenching process that caused great health risk, whatever it was the steel is incredibly flexible but also good at holding a thin position].
On a full hollow grind with the edge thinned to the maximum on my grinding wheel, the razor passes HHT all across at 800 grit, something which is impossible if the edge had been thicker..coticules are best used in conjunction with a very thin edge.
It blows my mind that people can react to something so negatively, when they haven’t even tried it! It reminds me of the Flat Earth followers 😂, it’s as if they are in a cult and don’t even try to explain their position, it’s just their way or no way. I can only surmise they feel very threatened by the revelation that curved hones actually work, ( which they do by the way! ) and therefore their position is to attack at every turn, those who claim it is a viable option to sharpening a straight razor. Sad to hear that a Razor forum would condone such petty negative behaviour, instead of encouraging others to actually try it out for themselves.
They're suffering badly from the "not invented here" syndrome. In Earth's history, I am singularly unique for being the very first human in existence to use a wheel-shaped abrasive to affect a cutting edge in a concave fashion :-)
I’ve tried telling these guys you were right about the concave edge theory and it shaved better..i got crucified 🤣at first i was talking to one guy then a bunch of guys jumped in
a troll should come in all heavy-handed with conCAVE hones for conVEX edges and let's see if the drama club defends their precious flat triangles with such veracity
Lots of Fascists on B&B. Some guy named David banned me for asking in a post if anyone in SoCal was going to an in-person wetshaving meetup. That was it, banned for life.
I will hazard a guess that whatever meetup u mentioned did not have financial tie-in w/ their Inc. owner$hip, so if u were new there, innocent mistake or not, better to be gone with you Daily Mail site has less obtrusive adverts plastered all over than their site now, and that sure is saying something! Their owner really is in it for the last nickel.
Ah, yes. The ‘experts’ of B&B. Not to mention the fine moderators of B&B. I’m surprised they’re not busy shitting on Simpson with their personal vendetta. Lmao. Yup luvmysuper. Fine fellow.
Enjoying myself honing my Facharbeit with convex honed I shaped using your concave plate with a coticule I purchased from you and a Japanese natural to finish. I love the edges I get using this method and I couldn’t achieve satisfactory results with flat hones. I have a coarse beard and sensitive skin. Convex hones rock!!! Love the textbook as well. Thanks for everything!
happy to hear, good shaving 2 u sir!
The flat hone guys all agree that changes in spine thickness, which affect the bevel angle, have a noticeable effect on the shave. If that's true, why wouldn't changing the bevel angle by honing with a convex hone also affect the shave? Seems pretty simple to me.
You're comparing a flat bevel and a compound bevel as if they're equal, but the angle at the tip of the bevel is only one element of its creation - also important is a bevel's SHAPE, its apex refinement, and how much of its span behind the apex remains
narrower than the diameter of an average strand of hair.
If you only grind down the spine, as you suggest, and then do your work on flat references, yes you'll have a more acute inclusive cutting angle °, but NOT a hollow ground bevel. You lose all of the flexibility advantages that the hollow ground bevel creates. Only a wheel or wheel shaped device grinding in to the bevel itself can make a hollow ground bevel.
It is much more important for the bevel to have a hollow grind than to have a lowest possible cutting angle, in fact Böker of late has taken to grinding quite a bit more bevel concavity than in the recent past, and then they finish on a CONCAVE finishing stone, making the actual cutting angle tip LARGER than would be present if the bevel had been entirely created with flat whetstones, but because it is backed by such thin steel it still has all the crucial flexibility advantages. This is sort of like what Thiers-Issard has done for years; they first cut in their bevel with the two convex discs rotating in opposite directions (the greenish slate wheels with their broad, but slightly convex, sides facing the ceiling), then they refine that on a huge slightly convex slate bench stone (its diameter is longer than the wheels things' diameters), then they finish on a pasted strop which is gently concave, thus making a thin fine bevel with a tiny bit of convexity at its very tip, ideal for upkeep with a pasted strop.
Yes, certainly, a more acute angle is always better, *if the steel can hold up to it*, and that is an "if" which is heavily influenced not only by the metallurgy but more crucially
by the razor administrator's abilities to prep/lather, to stretch skin, to choose a low angle of incidence of blade to skin, and most crucially to strop well. It is a hard road to hoe and you're better off favoring the high side of ~15-18° and going for maximum concavity just behind that apex.
Jarrod one thing that i think must be put forward is that making a proper concave edge is not that easy at all, it’s actually quite difficult to start getting good results, it actually took me a couple of months before i started to get the good results i got.
I wasn’t getting good results until i introduced the mid radius coticule , the binocular microscope to see what i was doing and the convex pasted strops.
After that i got the best shaves i ever got but after a couple of shaves looking at the edge under my binocular microscope i could see micro chips starting to appear but i believe that has to do with the quality of the steel and heat treatment.
I have not struggled, but to be fair, my progression went from first trying hand-sculpted soft coticules, then spherical concave piece of granite on Arkansas stones, then the 3-step method I use now. I sold a lot of spherically shaped Arkansas stones and coticules before I begin understanding the ellipse, and nobody seemed to have trouble with them, but with a diameter effect of nearly 9mØ, you were never asking much of the razor to begin with.
I have tried very hard the last ~5yrs to get micro-chipping to happen after concaving the razor edge. I lost a lot of blades in the fire, but here in the office there are ~40 razors, all of them have been concaved and shaved with several times afterwards, some more touching up, etc. Only two have I seen foils/chipping on the apexes, one of them is stainless modern razor (the only such piece I have, so I suspect it has inferior metallurgy) and one is a Dovo Sunday Shaver right at the very thin part of its heel where the razor's width is the largest of the whole 6.5cm cutting edge span and there is also no support of a shoulder.
That second razor, the Dovo SS, does show bad foil edge when I have used it, put away, and check days later, but if I strop it again and look at the edge, the foil part is facing away from the spine in opposition, and it shaves very well. So I would rather have the razor this way than thicker and no foils problem. This SS I have owned and used for +6yrs now, I had honed it many times, it shaves better with this thin fragile edge than it ever did before, also on the strop it sounds different, too.
An isolated micro-chipping would be a different story, especially if that is in the middle of the cutting edge on a razor with a shoulder/stabilizer, if you are sure there was no debris/impediment on the stone or the razor this likely means it cannot hold the concavity you are asking and the steel is just splitting away like a dandelion spore breaking off, you've asked too much concavity from that particular piece of steel. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't keep asking "how much concavity can you take?" of razors in general. Whatever they can accept, minus one notch for preservation, will be my preferred shape to use.
In a three step shape, I think the vast majority of razors can accept a 2mØ effect for the rear 50% of a bevel span, the first most delicate 50% of bevel can accept a 5mØ, usually all the way to the end if you are so inclined...but I would agree, finishing all the way through to the apex with arcs is really not necessary for most people (my very best shaves are indeed from this way, however we don't know if I'm just getting a better final strokes by random luck).
On a Sheffield razor I have shaped them to 1mØ the whole way and they never chip or fatigue, however their steel was treated, it was the best way [the ones which say BEST BEST BEST on the rear are supposedly with a quenching process that caused great health risk, whatever it was the steel is incredibly flexible but also good at holding a thin position].
On a full hollow grind with the edge thinned to the maximum on my grinding wheel, the razor passes HHT all across at 800 grit, something which is impossible if the edge had been thicker..coticules are best used in conjunction with a very thin edge.
wowsers
It blows my mind that people can react to something so negatively, when they haven’t even tried it! It reminds me of the Flat Earth followers 😂, it’s as if they are in a cult and don’t even try to explain their position, it’s just their way or no way. I can only surmise they feel very threatened by the revelation that curved hones actually work, ( which they do by the way! ) and therefore their position is to attack at every turn, those who claim it is a viable option to sharpening a straight razor. Sad to hear that a Razor forum would condone such petty negative behaviour, instead of encouraging others to actually try it out for themselves.
They're suffering badly from the "not invented here" syndrome.
In Earth's history, I am singularly unique for being the very first human in existence to use a wheel-shaped abrasive to affect a cutting edge in a concave fashion :-)
I’ve tried telling these guys you were right about the concave edge theory and it shaved better..i got crucified 🤣at first i was talking to one guy then a bunch of guys jumped in
a troll should come in all heavy-handed with conCAVE hones for conVEX edges and let's see if the drama club defends their precious flat triangles with such veracity
Lots of Fascists on B&B. Some guy named David banned me for asking in a post if anyone in SoCal was going to an in-person wetshaving meetup. That was it, banned for life.
I will hazard a guess that whatever meetup u mentioned did not have financial tie-in w/ their Inc. owner$hip, so if u were new there, innocent mistake or not, better to be gone with you
Daily Mail site has less obtrusive adverts plastered all over than their site now, and that sure is saying something! Their owner really is in it for the last nickel.
Ah, yes. The ‘experts’ of B&B. Not to mention the fine moderators of B&B. I’m surprised they’re not busy shitting on Simpson with their personal vendetta. Lmao. Yup luvmysuper. Fine fellow.
he is the undisputed Michael Jordan of Pathetically Pious Shaving Forum Moderators