Correction: The dynamic range of the main out of the Babyface PRO FS is actually 125.5 dB(A) as shown in its review. The graph will be adjusted in future videos. A few were interested in the audio codecs, here you go: - MSI PRO Z690-A: Realtek ALC897 - ASRock Z370 Taichi: Realtek ALC1220 - ASRock P67 Pro3: Realtek ALC892
Thanks for the work Julian. Can you do tests to Apollo twin x, mk 2, mk 1 and Apollo solo? It would be really an interesting video. I would like to ask you for advice about buying an audio interface. After watching your videos and analyzing your legendary table, I realized that motu m2 / m4 is the top one, not counting RME babyface pro fs, Motu ultralite-mk5, although this is also quite debatable. In general, I want to take an audio interface for recording, editing vocals, mixing tracks, etc. Which audio interface would you recommend and take for personal use and why? I generally liked Motu m2 (m4), Volt 276 (476), Arturia minifuse 1 (2). But recently discovered the world of apollo. So I’m thinking whether it’s worth it to overpay so much and take apollo solo. I would like to see your tests and comparisons. In general, something like this.
Awesome test (nobody else bothers to actually test MBs audio at this point, which is sad :(). Isn't DSP used less important than DAC/ADC chip they actually use (or are they using build-in ones) ? You could try to source EVGA's Nu Audio, ASUS's Essence STX (II), AIM SC808 or Creative ZxR PCIe sound card(s), to have better chance of getting output levels on par with other devices you tested. I bet at least some people would like to know what is the difference between internal high quality sound card vs. external DAC or audio interface.
If audio quality in our devices and equipment was as clear and precise as your videos, we'd never have anything to complain about. Excellent work as usual. 👍😎
The biggest benefit I've noticed to having an audio interface is really just the ability to connect xlr mics and instrument line in. If you don't need those features onboard audio with good speakers or headphones is probably just fine.
Well, in video is explained about output impedance and influence to headphones. So besides dedicated device, which will be better quality without induced MB inner noises you also get separate audio controls (physical!) for headphones and monitors separately.
@@igg5589 Output impedance on modern motherboards is usually fairly low. My motherboard has only 2 ohm output impedance for speakers/headphone, which is fine for driving most headphones you can buy.
I moved to external usb audio interface several years ago because tired of noise and interferences on bulit-in audio. USB as digital interface solves this issue completely. Also it enables to connect both headphones and dynamics and switch between them with physical switch what is very convenient and usable all time.
@@ArdgalAlkeides Optical Cables falls into the same category as USB, it's digital, and free of noise that the PC components generate in the analog signal the goes to the P2 port.
Liked & commented EVEN BEFORE watching! Julian Krause vids are always special occasions to look forwards to! :D (P.S. Extra points for providing system build info, as a PC enthusiast myself, but I would have liked if you also listed the audio chips used in these motherboards, most probably Realtek & such.)
I was using sound cards for years back in the day because I believed that a sound card would give better sound as well as better performance (offload from CPU). The sound was indeed WAY better. But these days I don't bother with one in favour of onboard sound because for me, they've don't crackle/breakup anymore and work fine for basic gaming, videos and music.
Keyword: basic. If you want more than the bare minimum you will need something better. And I think not an internal soundcard but external dac. I was never too worried about performance, but about interference, noise level and dynamics. And even today those are way better using in my case an AVR-1513 so far. A bit clunky though but you get what you pay for.
@@jamegumb7298 I've had none of those problems with any onboard sound since I dropped sound cards. It really depends on the board, I usually get decent quality/brand boards.
@@sadsismint Supermicro is not that bad. I have never had a soundcard put out actually dynamic sound. Just not working for me. I do have 4 PA speakers I built myself which thrive on a dynamic sound and very low noise floor, any onboard sound falls through.
@@xMaverickFPS The latency is 12ms for me on Win10, Ryzen 5600 and usb 2.0 full speed, usb 2.0 hi-speed should be even lower. Might be a thing to look out for when doing audio production, but not so much for playback. Any internal soundcard that does not have good chips can induce higher latency than that, so if you want low latency, watch which driver and soundcard you take, go shop at audio shops. For me not really an issue, as long as it stays below 16.6ms.
Great vid!! I always wished for somebody to cover this topic. I would recommend to check some higher end Gigabyte(AORUS branded) motherboards- they frequently use good audio codecs. Eagerly awaiting the headphone amp and DAC tests!
Thanks for an useful and educational video here, Julian, excellent job, as usual. Would you also consider measuring/evaluating something more in between of an audio interface and built-in DAC to devices such as the DAC dongles (e.g. Apple Lightning headphone adapter, USB-C to RCA audio cables, AudioQuest DragonFly series, ...)? I can hear subtle differences between them but not sure how they compare to other means of getting audio out of devices.
Great video, Julian! I would also be very interested in a comparison between audio interfaces with good headphone outputs (motu m2, audient Id14 mkII) and dedicated DAC /amps in a similar price range (fiio k5 pro ess, iFi zen etc). I would like to see how these compare when using mid-fi headphones (senn hd6** serios, akg k712 pro etc) maybe even high end ones. Thank you and congrats for all your videos and tests!
hey i have a DT1990 Pro and a Zen Dac V2. I tested the headphones on my Asus Strix X570 Mainboard and i think it sounds better on my Mainboard (Clearer Sound). Could be personal prefference. It also gets louder on the Mainboard.
@@ghst822 hey! Thank you for taking the time to comment. That's an unexpected impression. I have a motu m2 and an x570s tomahawk max (it's a pretty good mobo as well, although the strix may have better audio maybe) and akg k712 pro, and the motu sounds much clearer and with less distortion than the motherboard. I haven't checked which is louder, since both are plenty loud for me. Still curious about how the motu m2 headphone output compares to a dedicated dac/amp such as the fiio k5 pro ess or similar.
Very nice. Julian can you test laptops (including Macbooks) as well please? Also I can't wait to see the comparison with entry level Hifi DACs, like those from JDS Labs, Schiit, Topping, etc
Conclusions are spot on. I was running sensitive M-Audio low distortion headphones for a long time. No noise and plenty of power to drive them at earlobe resonating levels. In my case, extra audio device would have been waste for just listening. I only changed this setup because using small closed headphones for many many hours per day is not good for your ears' health (sweaty, warm, cramped).
Thank you for your thoroughness and clear explanations. I elected to go external USB DAC with a headphone amp, and small amp with speakers a few years ago and in my set up with a now aged €400 motherboard it still made a noticeable difference in terms of sound quality.
@@thedave7760 Bullshit cables that don’t do anything. What really makes a difference is the material for DAC cases. I recommend a wood enclosure for a warm, dark sound, but aluminum can also be a good option to boost the high end frequencies for treble lovers.
My approach is to just connect my audio reciever to my PC via SPDIF. The signal is digital so the motherboard can cheap out on DACs to their heart's content and not bother me.
How do you connect your PC to your receiver via SPDIF? Do you have a separate PCI board or do you still use an external DAC? I haven’t seen SPDIF in most PCs.
From back in the the day, after comparing the integrated audio to a proper audio interface, i hold this grudge against any integrated audio chip. First is the noise from other components in the PC. I re-test once in a while with new hardware, still the same - even the "premium shielding" doesn't work... And the next thing is the quality itself. I'm not sure if it's placebo or not, but I swear the audio is messed up to my ears no matter the chip. I guess as you have identified, one thing is the boosted bass and possibly the lower dynamic range. I can't properly identify it myself (except the too bassy sound maybe), so I appreciate your extensive tests and graphs. Confirms my bias against it, although I don't care much if other people don't pay attention to it. To each their own.
The components in the PC actually don't add alot of noise necessarily. What is often the issue is power supply and power stages. Preamps are all highly vulnerable to dirty power, that's one reason audiophiles (correctly) focus on clean power. And switching power supplies, like all computers use, are notorious for being noisy unless the components are carefully selected.
Great video! Thanks for your effort. That would be really cool to see a video where you compare Apple Mac computers' built-in outputs vs USB DACs. Core Audio system in Macs are actually very solid.
True, and also their iDevices have very good audio stages. Ken Rockwell the camera guy, who also reviews audio equipment, put an iPhone through a slew of tests and found the DAC to be extremely quiet and flat responding.
They are just okay for consumer level use. We have all upgraded to the m1 units across the recording industry, an external soundcard is still mandatory.
One thing that wasn’t discussed was susceptibility to electronic interference. I have had more than one MB that would make terrible audio when near an active cell phone for instance, and this was with shielded coax cables going to the headset.
Thanks for the work Julian. Can you do tests to Apollo twin x, mk 2, mk 1 and Apollo solo? It would be really an interesting video. I would like to ask you for advice about buying an audio interface. After watching your videos and analyzing your legendary table, I realized that motu m2 / m4 is the top one, not counting RME babyface pro fs, Motu ultralite-mk5, although this is also quite debatable. In general, I want to take an audio interface for recording, editing vocals, mixing tracks, etc. Which audio interface would you recommend and take for personal use and why? I generally liked Motu m2 (m4), Volt 276 (476), Arturia minifuse 1 (2). But recently discovered the world of apollo. So I’m thinking whether it’s worth it to overpay so much and take apollo solo. I would like to see your tests and comparisons. In general, something like this.
I've had a Wave XLR interface for some time now and have been in the market for some new headphones after my old low impedance ones broke. I have been contemplating going with higher impedance options but didn't know what impedance headphones that the Wave XLR could drive. The massive table you provided which included the Wave XLR was very helpful!
For me the "crazy night and day" difference was definitely noise to start with. raising the volume was always a constant woosh of white noise. But the biggest benefit of course comes from using studio monitors instead of PC speakers or gaming headsets. Also everyone notices the sound clarity when talking over a good static mic instead of USB mics that tend to still have that old landline phone distorsion because crap capsules. Having mic gain, and main volume controls is also super handy ofc :) Now, thinking back about the sound blaster days, yea, the motheboard audio is just stellar ^^
Hey Brudi, would be awesome if you could test dacs and amps available in EU. Like the stuff made by Pro-Ject for example. Schiit and JDS is nice and all but difficult and annoying to get.
Schiit gear is actually rather easy to get. While the schiit europe store is permantently out of stock, the official italian reseller (proaudioitalia) had most of schiits DACs and AMPs in stock when I bought my gear. They do not have an online shop though, you will need to send them an email, but they deliver to the entire EU.
Jesus, how many tests do you want in a jungle of tests, hundreds per day! And all those people doing these test, have to make a living!!!! Why don't you start using your own ears, instead of depending on reviewers mixed interest results. I am in the Neteland, i I want some Schitt, which i once did, its delivered tomorrow.
Yeah their distribution channels are "Schiit", I've tried to get hold of a Schiit Mani 2 for some time now. Topping are also nice DACs. Especially the Topping A90.
Hello Julian, thanks for your scientific measurements. I find them interesting as well as helpful. Would the internal headphone amp on a laptop perform similarly to the PCs you tested here? Thanks.
Great work! Im not surprised with the findings. The only reason i got an audio interface in the first place was laptop audio jack output. I used to have a budget HP laptop, the sound is audibly different compared to line out of Presonus USB 96(not the greatest, i know). As i went in further into audio, getting a SHP9500, the audio will crackle when connected to the laptop audio jack especially on highly compressed, closed to clipping songs, no such problem connected to Dac/amp. But not all laptops have problems, AFAIK the 2016 MacBook was definitely a class above other laptops of its time in audio jack output and also price
Hey, really enjoy your approach with all your reviews! It is very informative and entertaining, Keep it up. One thing I would really enjoy to see is if you ever found a way to take your analytical approach to measuring Audio Interfaces and finding a way to do so with speakers and / or headphones. I get that may tough but it would be so helpful!
Thank you for listing the RME Babyface Pro FS. I had purchased one a couple years ago to do the reverse: convert analog to digital so I could have a clean recording without PC hiss/noise. I hadn't made the connection in my mind that it was capable of the reverse, taking digital sound and converting it to analog. All I needed to do was download the PC drivers for it. You just saved me a few hundred dollars!
Julian, absolutely excellent and scientific content as usual, something that is very rarely seen on youtube, you are a reference point. Any chance to check any of the Arturia Audiofuse "professional" series? You really measured it all apart from these two popular ones.
My suggestion for future video... What makes a Mastering DAC a Mastering DAC?? The output gain?? The Freq response?? Having the fact a lot of the interfaces you review has almost linear response what's the difference vs pricey mastering DACs (lavry, benchmark, HEDD, Prism, Dangerous etc..)? It's ok to master with any of the interfaces you suggest? Thanks!
Nice video Julian.. How does the 12700k in your new Pc work for music related programs? Would be nice to have your opinion related to pc for music production or audio engineering. Cheers
Some Gigabyte and ASUS motherboards are using ESS Sabers. I have the ROG Rampage VI Extreme Encore motherboard and it has a ESS SABRE9018Q2C DAC. The specs says it has audio clarity capable of -115dB THD and 121dB DNR. Also the audio jacks are color illuminated! It's the first time I've seen that and it's a clever touch.
Great point with the interference on on-board audio. There have been stories in my voice over group that have complained about maddening inexplicable buzzing when not using their external audio device.
Your vids have been very help full. thank you!!! Please take a look at the Creative EA-9 soundcard. I think that there will be same conclusion to be drawn from a product like this.
What an amazing video! If you are interestes for a video idea: I struggled a lot with ground loops with my scarlet 4i4 and my Hs5 Monitors and was only able to kinda fix that through essentially different outlets. Haven't found a good informational video about ground loops and noise issues, so maybe you are interested to change that 😇
Hey, that's a good idea. What cables are you using to cennect the interface to you monitors? Make sure that they are TRS to get a balanced connection. With a TS plug you are likely to end up with a ground loop.
@@JulianKrause thanks for the reply! I use a balanced XLR to TRS cable, with noise most likely leaking from the USB port, since there was way less audible noise from an unplugged laptop. It was a whole thing and still is confusing :D
I learned that apparently USB is connected to mains earth/ground… i guess that influences the ground loop situation too somehow… I would also love to learn more about this topic… never really understood it deeply… 🙏
Have you tried adding a 'ground loop isolator' in line on your Line Outs? This fixed a similar issue i was having when connecting Monitors direct to my PC using unbalanced cables. Isolators are about $20 so not much investment to troubleshoot ect.
@@bigdaz7272 ehhh the cheap ones are all designed for 3.5mm and to add two more adapters just introduces so many more potential issues. Thank you though, great suggestion!
another option if you cant afford a usb dac is a simple USB audio adapter for like $10. i found that fixed my interference issues before i got my motu interface. also, from my experience, front panel usually has interference, most pc case manufacturers run the audio cables next to rgb power cables thus making the efforts of the motherboard manufacturer go to waste.
The difference in sound quality while listening to Dark Side Of The Moon is night and day when using a quality dac and decent headphones....Throw in some high quality Dank and you're off to see the wizard !!!!!
Julian everybody i go people say theres no audible diference between FLAC and CD , could you do a test compressing a original CD and make a flac and compare both with your analysis
Given that both provide exactly the same data to the DAC and also that the data will be buffered several times and also having a not totally prone-to-jitter-design of the DAC, the comparison between CD's PCM vs. FLAC wouldn't even show measureable differences, let alone audible ones.
Interesting - a very thought provoking video! I look forward to your DAC / headphone amp reviews. I'd be interested in seeing a review of the Benchmark DAC 3 HGC (if you can get hold of one)
Wouldn't mind to see such an "unagitated" review of a Benchmark DAC model here either, but I guess such products are out of scope for Julian price-wise and also returns-wise. The outcome would most probably be that for sure, it is a pristine piece of engineering, measuring top notch, but virtually none of those improvements - may it be the advertised jitter surpression or the mostly immunity against intersample peaks - will be audible and we all wouldn't stand a blind comparison between a Benchmark DAC1/2/3 against a cheap-ass 100 dollar DAC+HPA combo, depending on the headphone I guess not even with some on-board sound output which shows how saturated the whole digital audio game has become.
Hi Julian, could you review Mixer Interfaces such as Mackie Onyx 12, Tascam Model 12, Presonus 12 ARC? No one ever talks about how well the convertors, preamps and latency of such products perform, yet they seem to pack so much value compared to regular interfaces which may only offer less I/Os at the same price. Love your channel, keep up the great work!
I am on the verge of buying new headphones but don't have enough budget for an amp right now, thankfully I have a good motherboard, but I was unsure as if I my audio codec was good enough. You took time an tested all this audio codecs when literally no one did that, I really love you man, now I'll just buy my headphones and wait for my amp without feeling uncomfortable, thanks!
Julian, did you set the realtek control panel for "headphones" when testing them? In my PC, setting it to heapdhones make it more powerful than setting as "front speakers". This could also change the output impedance.
Great video, please make a video about the best dac/headphone amp/mic input compact devices for gaming but also desktop devices for beginner audiophiles like Schiit Hel2 or Schiit Fulla 3
Great content! Interesting to see how far integrated audio has come! If they could improve the headphone output, mobo audio would be totally acceptable.
Is there any way you could test the Behringer XR18? It's getting old but is probably still the best bang for buck audio interface/mixer you can get under 2000 Euro. The GoXLR doesn't even compare remotely.
Super interesting! Would you consider doing a similar test on Thunderbolt docks with their own built-in audio interface, like the CalDigit TS4 (i.e. the CMedia CM6533) or the Kensington SD5700T (not sure about the audio chip in this one)? I'm really curious in particular about whether the isolation from noise is better (because it's "outside the PC" and therefore isolated from the graphics card and CPU) or worse (because it's next to all that other I/O hardware like USB and DisplayPort).
Curious how you feel about the Apple USB-C to 3.5mm "adapter" DAC and how it compares specifically to built-in audio. It's a compelling price for an add-on price upgrade if it performs but I expect it has its own issues.
Just to share, I had an emergency need to monitor a network broadcast for two days using built-in audio on two high end all-in-one PCs while a SW manufacturer worked on a driver issue that wouldn’t talk to USB output. The computers were Lenovo and Dell. The speaker was a Fostex active monitor. Reconnecting the Focusrite Scarlett interface was to put it mildly, night to day. I can barely describe how horrible the computer audio was for each machine. Extreme freq resp difference, and very high, easily audible distortion. It was so unlistenable I spent much of a day just watching meters.
Really interesting video. I would like to know if you have a website with those results as there is none in the description. Also do you have a video on how you test, and if not, plz make one.
Julian, why didn't you at least test a mid-range Asus board? (such as Asus ROG Strix Z690-F Gaming) , which has ALC4080 with Savitech SV3H712 amplifier and SNR of 120db. It also powers headphones cleanly up to 600 ohm and is better than any £200 external headphone amp/dac that I've tried. This board you have is an entry level board, so you wouldn't expect top performance from it. So this is an apples to oranges comparison. You would need to be looking at the boards with ALC4080 chips
Just in case anyone was worried about the GPU whine of one of the motherboards: I recently had this issue. However, after switching cases, the issue is completely gone, even though I was using the rear connectors for everything. I assume it has something to do with how the case makes contact with the IO shield and GPU IO. It's likely not actually a motherboard issue (although ofc you won't know if this is an issue for a given case, so external audio solution would eliminate this risk)
Some mobos have built in headphone amps that can drive 600ohm headphones but it's usually a feature that has to be turned on using the proprietary software (usually realtek audio manager)
Regarding your point that some people may prefer bloated bass from their headphone output, I think it comes down to the fact that they're used to feeiling soundwaves through their body so when headphones are set loud they feel like the an accentuated bass response is closer to a normal experience of listening to music through speakers. If you EQ your headphones by ear and then compare that with the sound from your monitors it's quite likely that you will be surprised that you've dialed more bass to the latter thinking that sounded "neutral". As for on interfaces, I'm stuck with an old E-MU here and the card lacks headphone output - but has DSP effects applicable to any stage so I can even put eq and reverb to my output signal, something that almost all modern interfaces lack and it bothers me - so for headphones I use the realtek interface from my motherboard. When I built this pc that headphones output sounded weak and progressively lacking volume towards the lower frequencies, but then a driver update came and it became louder and more or less flat. That seemed pretty weird to me.
I look forward to your DAC and amplifier videos to help make choices of these devices less of a minefield. Thank you as always for your professional and indepth testing and result reporting.
Mind that this is like a 400€ mainboard or so, and it still has major issues like the output impedance. I actually had to get myself a headphone DAC for my Sennheiser 599SE because their sound just got wrecked by that. And its not like Im using "audiophile" equipment or anything. With some mainboards electric interference also seems to be a problem; often not enough to hurt headphones, but screws up analogue mics. If you get something like a USB external soundcard, that can double for sound and recording, while offering more practical place to plug your audio jacks.
@@termitreter6545 This is absolutely true, but I'm just curious and the quality difference between newer and older mainboards will most likely be bigger then on the output side. The funny thing is, that old interfaces / sound cards for recording purposes might not even better then newer on-board equipment.
Thank you, that confirms my impression. On a current high-end PC with a high-end mainboard, I can't hear any difference to the audio interface when I set the EQ of the sound card to neutral.
Absolutely need a re-do of this video comparing the Optical outs. I was previously under the assumption that optical out and usb out should provide identical performance. Recently added a Topping MX3S Class D DAC amp combo unit to my pc. The USB interface is very clearly superior to using optical. Why would this be? Isnt a digital signal supposed to be identical no matter where it is received from? Could the optical from my motherboard be sending onboard DAC's interpretation of the signal vs running straight digital via usb to the Topping?
The rule I go by is to Isolate the PC as much as possible from the speakers/headphones themselves. This is to cus off any interference and buzing/humming or similar from the signal that is sent first, then amplified. The issue is not to have 1% THD, it is to have 1% THD that then will go to another device that will boost the signal, send it to an amp, then to your speakers. Any errors that happen early are increased with every additional item in the chain. This is why I always use optical audio (toslink) from my PC. That will cut any issues from the PC from carring over. I tested a dedicated DAC (Schiit bifrost multibit) connected to my PC via toslink, then the analog signal sent to my Z-5500 and the sound was noticibly worse than just sending the optical signal to the Z-5500 and let it's integrated Dac do the job. The Bifrost sounded fuller and had stronger and tighter bass, but there was also more unwanted sounds. Once your brain gets used to the optical signal as source, it is VERY noticible to change to USB, coaxial or analog from the motherboard or sound card. You start hearing CPU clock cycles, electromagnetic interference.. stuff like that. It's not that it is imposible to make the analog signal clean from the PC, its just that it is ridiculous to try (due to high cost). It's kind of like trying to use a scented spray after you take a shit insted of just ventilating the toilet. Its possible, but the shit smell is still there, you are only trying to hide it.
This is really an insightful video. Let me add, however, it would have been further more informative if you had indicated the audio codec for each of your motherboards tested: ALC1220 for Z370 Taichi, ALC892 for P67 Pro 3, and ALC897 for MSI Pro Z-690. No wonder Z370 Taichi performed better than the other two. I'm curious about how a motherboard with ALC4080 fares against external DACs. Now, given your analysis, it seems to me that, if you have a motherboard with a decent codec such as ALC4080, you might not need an external DAC but only a headphone amp.
it was interesting, but it would also be interesting to know how good the Line-input of motherboards if you connect a microphone preamp to it. Is it possible to get a good audio interface this way?. Once upon a time, I connected my cassette player to the line input of the motherboard for digitize a song, and it was quite high quality
2 роки тому
Hey Julian, would it be possible for you to do a video focusing on the interference problems coming from a pc like you mentioned in this video? Im having some pretty bad whiny sounds when my gpu is under heavy load (higher frame rate, higher pitched noise). This happens on my yamaha hs7s which are connected to my pc via usb using a ur22 mkii. Do you think switching to an audio interface with a dedicated power source instead of having it be bus powered through usb could help? Cheers man, love your work!
For a clean USB output I use a separate dedicated PCIe card (Matrix Element H). It is powered through the PCIe bus but is set up not to power the 5v USB supply. The digital signal is sent to a Matrix SPDIF 2 which is powered by an external LPSU at 7v. The digital signal via AES connection goes to a pair of active monitors set for digital input. This gives a very clean sound with no discernible background noise at all.
As mention the impedance can be an issue and also, if you are trying to record any outboard gear that takes trs cables or XLR cables and trying to use an adaptor to plug straight into the 1/8 jack on the motherboard, or if you have monitors that take trs or XLR inputs and need to use an adapter for the 1/8 inch output from the motherboard you will many times lose at least some quality. It's kind of akin to car audio. You wouldn't use 12 Guage wire to connect to a pair of 12" 1000 watt rms subwoofers. Think of cables like a straw. The smaller the straw the less current can flow through it at one time. You wouldn't want to drive a pair of 100watt each monitors through the high Guage 1/8 inch splitter cable from the motherboard out if you can avoid it. Same if trying to run say an electric guitar into an integrated sound card. You can run the 1/4 inch out of the guitar into an 1/8 inch input adaptor to the integrated card. It will work. But you'll have to drive the gain so high the results won't be great. Now if you aren't recording any mics or instruments, and just want to listen to music or mix a little music here and there the adapters are ok. But for anything remotely serious or recording any outboard gear you definitely want a dedicated soundcard.
Hi Julian. I was expecting a segment on input noise if any. Am I missing something? When recording through the built-in inputs I always experienced "system noise" in the recording which degraded the quality, and I am referring to my Windows PC and laptops. I moved to interfaces as soon as I could. *By way of explanation if it's necessary, by "system noise" I mean the low level operational sound of the system, nothing like ground loops.
Came here after Steve from HWUB said concerning the value of high-end motherboards, if it's for audio, get a different solution anyways, like a USB DAC. Given that ASRock boasts about their "Purity Sound™4" and gold plated jacks on the Taichi and MSI is telling us they have "Audio Boost" for "studio quality audio", I expect perfection! After watching, I have to say Steve is right. Great analysis you have done, especially showing that front vs back connector can vary from board to board and the issue with cross-talk and interference from the GPU.
Julian. A request for next time. Can you measure the microphone input as well? I wonder if I had no luck with my computers. I always use an H1 or simular recorder, still wouldn't it be nice if a hot dynamic microphone like a MOVO could be used in some cases.
No, you weren't exceptionally unlucky. Onboard mic inputs usually are low enough in noise for electret mics only, and even then microphone bias voltage can be quite noisy and spoil performance beyond that. With a dynamic mic you may be almost 20 dB worse off compared to a decent input. There's really no way around a Behringer UM2, UMC22, M-Audio M-Track Solo or an external compact mixer serving as a preamp if you need decent results with a dynamic mic. Could board manufacturers include the extra circuitry needed for a truly low-noise mic input? Sure, but it would cost them money and turn the mic input into a single function jack, ruling out jack retasking (e.g. mic/line).
really thanks for these video. i really was been asking me the same for a couple time. i would love to see a video about the same aspect but on the microphone in, and if there are a really great difference on the adc from the motherboard and a external soundcard?
Good video, I started recording in the late 90s using a Peavey console and connecting it to the stereo line input (obviously unbalanced) of a creative soundblaster sound card on a Pentium II, when some motherboards still did not have built-in audio. Low noise and acceptable quality, much better than recording on a cassette , ha. Nowadays with such cheap and good adc/dac chips it should be almost impossible for any sound card (built-in or not) to sound bad. Greetings from Argentina.
Julian ...get out of here, there was only one response line on at least a couple of those charts ..what are you playing at ;p Thanks so much for all your content, it's super helpful!
I think most will be pretty happy with their OB audio, however my motherboard came with a very nasty one that I never had such a bad audio quality, basically I can only go to around 50% max volume until scratches start destroying everything so I went for a PCIe soundcard and have always been so much better, specially in bass for the headphones, it can make them to go subwoofer and break the speakers on some 😎
you are my hero, omg i didn't even know this kind of testing existed, and picking up a z690 is driving me crazy (msi is the best budget but has no digital out, so I was looking for an usb audio card with optical out, without falling into the +100$ yet apple dongle is only for 3.5mm jacks, etc, many other combinations/setups down the rabbit hole of audiophiles/min maxers in pcmasterrace etc... too much electric lingo mixed with microchip/latest data, then the whole question of "audiophiles can fall for snake oil/ spend 300$ for diminishing returns" beyond that 50$ a gamer would spend (but he won't even tell in the first place audio quality changes). Holy fuck dont even get me started on having the idea "split the HDMI from the video out of my 3060 ti, and drive that shit into a hub/converter/home theatre", and then the first qquestion arises, on what does the nvidia "high def audio" out depend, another rabbit hole on the sellers of the nvidia microchip that is essambled in my case by MSI model x year x, or is it all depending on the chip, the same that need so much cooling, and it's not obvious because realtec has a separate chip in motherboard.. omg go figure the GA104 printed paths and what not... This is truly taxing me and i havent even start building my PC. thx for alleviating my searing stress lol
I wish there would be a better audichip from a modern mainboard. The z690 has the same chip as my 90€ b450 from 2019 (ALC897), its not bad but it has definitely more unwanted noise (Correct term would be higher noisefloor ? Sorry, IT guy here not a Audio Engineer) in recordings and a overwall "rougher" sound from headphones aswell in comparison with a cheap audio interface. And it was blind testet with 3 of my friends ^^ The newer ones like a ALC1220 or ALC4080 are well more isolated and have way better specs overall. But it also depends on how much is going on on your Mainboard aka interference. How many devices are connected (espacially the difference from used lanes (CPU or Chipset)), pci-e 3,4 or 5, how many drives are build in, build quality of the pcb and the corrosponding lanes and their isolation etc. But i guess we cant justify a purchase of a mainboard just for testing the audio :D
Dear Julian! Would you be so kind to do a review about Tascam 208i interface? I think that's an interesting one about its prize! Thank you for your work!
There's other reasons why you may want to avoid onboard audio. In my case, on top of noticing noise trough high end speakers, I noticed that positional audio in games was completely off when compared to a dedicated sound card (both an old Sound Blaster X-Fi and a more recent Sound Blaster Z) Great video as usual!
is that fixed by having just an amp though? im getting an amp but trying to figure out if a dac would be all that helpful with this motherboard model after already connecting an amp
What is not commonly known is that some motherboards are closer to more 'proper' DACs, the Asrock in the video has uses an unnamed chipset with a 120db SNR which is pretty good compared to most lower end sound chips in other boards. Asus' Crosshair X570 series uses an ESS DAC (Sabre), and can drive some headphones pretty decently. However, these tend to have dedicated rear outputs, so the performance of their front output (which is connecting the case front output to the motherboard) will always be lower than the rear output.
Super interesting thanks for sharing! I wonder if you would be interested in doing similar video with a couple of smart phones, I often run my HD600s off my old moto G4 and while I haven't done a proper AB test, I don't feel like there are any significant differences jumping out at me when compared to my interface. The output level is also not an issue, I usually run them at below half volume, despite the fact they are 300 ohm headphones.
I bought MOTU M2 specifically for my guitar but I use it as my main audio output for gaming, music etc and never looked back. Sound cards are getting better and have some interesting features, but if you really care about quality, switching to interface is no brainer.
Honestly, a lot of past hardware used for hit records is way below current high end motherboard audio solutions. I currently have a motherboard with ALC 1220 dual dac and headphone amplifier with automatic impedance sensing, and its audio quality is certainly good enough for music making and loud enough for any headphones,which it has over your Taichi moterboard, admittedly a huge difference, along with dual dac. I do however use my external audio interface as it is so nice to have a physical volume control. But apart from the asio drivers, that's about all the difference.
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/48PxwspDvrE/mqdefault.jpg)
Correction: The dynamic range of the main out of the Babyface PRO FS is actually 125.5 dB(A) as shown in its review. The graph will be adjusted in future videos.
A few were interested in the audio codecs, here you go:
- MSI PRO Z690-A: Realtek ALC897
- ASRock Z370 Taichi: Realtek ALC1220
- ASRock P67 Pro3: Realtek ALC892
Thankyou kindly! Don't have to look them up myself now. Interestingly the audio quality does seem to correlate with codec versions.
Thanks for the work Julian.
Can you do tests to Apollo twin x, mk 2, mk 1 and Apollo solo? It would be really an interesting video.
I would like to ask you for advice about buying an audio interface. After watching your videos and analyzing your legendary table, I realized that motu m2 / m4 is the top one, not counting RME babyface pro fs, Motu ultralite-mk5, although this is also quite debatable.
In general, I want to take an audio interface for recording, editing vocals, mixing tracks, etc. Which audio interface would you recommend and take for personal use and why? I generally liked Motu m2 (m4), Volt 276 (476), Arturia minifuse 1 (2).
But recently discovered the world of apollo. So I’m thinking whether it’s worth it to overpay so much and take apollo solo. I would like to see your tests and comparisons. In general, something like this.
Your list of devices lacks such a popular model as the Yamaha AG03.
@@axefromrussia I love my Yamaha AG06
Awesome test (nobody else bothers to actually test MBs audio at this point, which is sad :().
Isn't DSP used less important than DAC/ADC chip they actually use (or are they using build-in ones) ?
You could try to source EVGA's Nu Audio, ASUS's Essence STX (II), AIM SC808 or Creative ZxR PCIe sound card(s), to have better chance of getting output levels on par with other devices you tested.
I bet at least some people would like to know what is the difference between internal high quality sound card vs. external DAC or audio interface.
If audio quality in our devices and equipment was as clear and precise as your videos, we'd never have anything to complain about. Excellent work as usual. 👍😎
The biggest benefit I've noticed to having an audio interface is really just the ability to connect xlr mics and instrument line in. If you don't need those features onboard audio with good speakers or headphones is probably just fine.
That's why I got my interface. for xlr mic and 250ohm headphones. Was satisfied with mb audio quality for years.
@@vivago727 what did you get?
Well, in video is explained about output impedance and influence to headphones. So besides dedicated device, which will be better quality without induced MB inner noises you also get separate audio controls (physical!) for headphones and monitors separately.
You can get passive boxes that can convert microphone and instruments to line-level, you don't strictly need an interface.
@@igg5589 Output impedance on modern motherboards is usually fairly low. My motherboard has only 2 ohm output impedance for speakers/headphone, which is fine for driving most headphones you can buy.
I moved to external usb audio interface several years ago because tired of noise and interferences on bulit-in audio. USB as digital interface solves this issue completely. Also it enables to connect both headphones and dynamics and switch between them with physical switch what is very convenient and usable all time.
@@ArdgalAlkeides Optical Cables falls into the same category as USB, it's digital, and free of noise that the PC components generate in the analog signal the goes to the P2 port.
My problems with ob audio has always been around the unbalanced outputs and the ground loop. Great video as usual!
Liked & commented EVEN BEFORE watching! Julian Krause vids are always special occasions to look forwards to! :D
(P.S. Extra points for providing system build info, as a PC enthusiast myself, but I would have liked if you also listed the audio chips used in these motherboards, most probably Realtek & such.)
Good point, I just pinned a comment :)
I was using sound cards for years back in the day because I believed that a sound card would give better sound as well as better performance (offload from CPU).
The sound was indeed WAY better. But these days I don't bother with one in favour of onboard sound because for me, they've don't crackle/breakup anymore and work fine for basic gaming, videos and music.
Keyword: basic. If you want more than the bare minimum you will need something better. And I think not an internal soundcard but external dac.
I was never too worried about performance, but about interference, noise level and dynamics. And even today those are way better using in my case an AVR-1513 so far. A bit clunky though but you get what you pay for.
@@jamegumb7298 I've had none of those problems with any onboard sound since I dropped sound cards.
It really depends on the board, I usually get decent quality/brand boards.
@@sadsismint Supermicro is not that bad.
I have never had a soundcard put out actually dynamic sound. Just not working for me. I do have 4 PA speakers I built myself which thrive on a dynamic sound and very low noise floor, any onboard sound falls through.
@@jamegumb7298 DAC's and USB interfaces deal with latency. an internal PCI soundcard or PCI interface would be the best option for quality and latency
@@xMaverickFPS The latency is 12ms for me on Win10, Ryzen 5600 and usb 2.0 full speed, usb 2.0 hi-speed should be even lower. Might be a thing to look out for when doing audio production, but not so much for playback.
Any internal soundcard that does not have good chips can induce higher latency than that, so if you want low latency, watch which driver and soundcard you take, go shop at audio shops. For me not really an issue, as long as it stays below 16.6ms.
Great vid!! I always wished for somebody to cover this topic.
I would recommend to check some higher end Gigabyte(AORUS branded) motherboards- they frequently use good audio codecs.
Eagerly awaiting the headphone amp and DAC tests!
Yeah it's strange he didn't even check, mention, or compare it to a mid-range one, like Asus' ALC4080 which measures fantastically.
Thanks for an useful and educational video here, Julian, excellent job, as usual. Would you also consider measuring/evaluating something more in between of an audio interface and built-in DAC to devices such as the DAC dongles (e.g. Apple Lightning headphone adapter, USB-C to RCA audio cables, AudioQuest DragonFly series, ...)? I can hear subtle differences between them but not sure how they compare to other means of getting audio out of devices.
just here to say thank's for all that work !! I don't think people realize how much work went into that video
Great video, Julian!
I would also be very interested in a comparison between audio interfaces with good headphone outputs (motu m2, audient Id14 mkII) and dedicated DAC /amps in a similar price range (fiio k5 pro ess, iFi zen etc). I would like to see how these compare when using mid-fi headphones (senn hd6** serios, akg k712 pro etc) maybe even high end ones.
Thank you and congrats for all your videos and tests!
hey i have a DT1990 Pro and a Zen Dac V2. I tested the headphones on my Asus Strix X570 Mainboard and i think it sounds better on my Mainboard (Clearer Sound). Could be personal prefference. It also gets louder on the Mainboard.
@@ghst822 hey! Thank you for taking the time to comment. That's an unexpected impression. I have a motu m2 and an x570s tomahawk max (it's a pretty good mobo as well, although the strix may have better audio maybe) and akg k712 pro, and the motu sounds much clearer and with less distortion than the motherboard. I haven't checked which is louder, since both are plenty loud for me.
Still curious about how the motu m2 headphone output compares to a dedicated dac/amp such as the fiio k5 pro ess or similar.
Very nice. Julian can you test laptops (including Macbooks) as well please? Also I can't wait to see the comparison with entry level Hifi DACs, like those from JDS Labs, Schiit, Topping, etc
Do Macbooks still have headphone jacks? :p
@@_BangDroid_ The Pros do, with auto-detect voltage output
@@wywywywywywywy Non-pros do as well and they're at least subjectively rather good.
Conclusions are spot on. I was running sensitive M-Audio low distortion headphones for a long time. No noise and plenty of power to drive them at earlobe resonating levels. In my case, extra audio device would have been waste for just listening. I only changed this setup because using small closed headphones for many many hours per day is not good for your ears' health (sweaty, warm, cramped).
This is the only channel for detailed review of Audio Gear, especially Audio Interface. I would love to hear reviews of DAC, Loudspeakers, Headphones.
Thank you for your thoroughness and clear explanations. I elected to go external USB DAC with a headphone amp, and small amp with speakers a few years ago and in my set up with a now aged €400 motherboard it still made a noticeable difference in terms of sound quality.
It depends on how much you have spent on your oxygen free speaker cables.
@@thedave7760 Bullshit cables that don’t do anything. What really makes a difference is the material for DAC cases. I recommend a wood enclosure for a warm, dark sound, but aluminum can also be a good option to boost the high end frequencies for treble lovers.
My approach is to just connect my audio reciever to my PC via SPDIF. The signal is digital so the motherboard can cheap out on DACs to their heart's content and not bother me.
How do you connect your PC to your receiver via SPDIF? Do you have a separate PCI board or do you still use an external DAC? I haven’t seen SPDIF in most PCs.
@@Riggy931 If not you can use HDMI, too, to connect your PC to a receiver.
From back in the the day, after comparing the integrated audio to a proper audio interface, i hold this grudge against any integrated audio chip. First is the noise from other components in the PC. I re-test once in a while with new hardware, still the same - even the "premium shielding" doesn't work... And the next thing is the quality itself. I'm not sure if it's placebo or not, but I swear the audio is messed up to my ears no matter the chip. I guess as you have identified, one thing is the boosted bass and possibly the lower dynamic range. I can't properly identify it myself (except the too bassy sound maybe), so I appreciate your extensive tests and graphs. Confirms my bias against it, although I don't care much if other people don't pay attention to it. To each their own.
Even in recording the audio itself, it is audible. Outboard audio is better.
The components in the PC actually don't add alot of noise necessarily. What is often the issue is power supply and power stages. Preamps are all highly vulnerable to dirty power, that's one reason audiophiles (correctly) focus on clean power. And switching power supplies, like all computers use, are notorious for being noisy unless the components are carefully selected.
@@Magnulus76 I think Lasdernas is including the noisy PSU in "other components". Typically what folks do when complaining about PC noise.
Great video! Thanks for your effort. That would be really cool to see a video where you compare Apple Mac computers' built-in outputs vs USB DACs. Core Audio system in Macs are actually very solid.
True, and also their iDevices have very good audio stages. Ken Rockwell the camera guy, who also reviews audio equipment, put an iPhone through a slew of tests and found the DAC to be extremely quiet and flat responding.
They are just okay for consumer level use. We have all upgraded to the m1 units across the recording industry, an external soundcard is still mandatory.
@@monsirto depends on use case, I’m an IT consultant and one of my clients does advertisement and music production on the Mac Pro trashcan.
One thing that wasn’t discussed was susceptibility to electronic interference. I have had more than one MB that would make terrible audio when near an active cell phone for instance, and this was with shielded coax cables going to the headset.
Thanks for the work Julian.
Can you do tests to Apollo twin x, mk 2, mk 1 and Apollo solo? It would be really an interesting video.
I would like to ask you for advice about buying an audio interface. After watching your videos and analyzing your legendary table, I realized that motu m2 / m4 is the top one, not counting RME babyface pro fs, Motu ultralite-mk5, although this is also quite debatable.
In general, I want to take an audio interface for recording, editing vocals, mixing tracks, etc. Which audio interface would you recommend and take for personal use and why? I generally liked Motu m2 (m4), Volt 276 (476), Arturia minifuse 1 (2).
But recently discovered the world of apollo. So I’m thinking whether it’s worth it to overpay so much and take apollo solo. I would like to see your tests and comparisons. In general, something like this.
I've had a Wave XLR interface for some time now and have been in the market for some new headphones after my old low impedance ones broke. I have been contemplating going with higher impedance options but didn't know what impedance headphones that the Wave XLR could drive. The massive table you provided which included the Wave XLR was very helpful!
For me the "crazy night and day" difference was definitely noise to start with.
raising the volume was always a constant woosh of white noise.
But the biggest benefit of course comes from using studio monitors instead of PC speakers or gaming headsets.
Also everyone notices the sound clarity when talking over a good static mic instead of USB mics that tend to still have that old landline phone distorsion because crap capsules.
Having mic gain, and main volume controls is also super handy ofc :)
Now, thinking back about the sound blaster days, yea, the motheboard audio is just stellar ^^
Hey Brudi,
would be awesome if you could test dacs and amps available in EU. Like the stuff made by Pro-Ject for example. Schiit and JDS is nice and all but difficult and annoying to get.
true
Especially ones with mic-in. I think that is where on-board audio falls down more is in the mic input.
Schiit gear is actually rather easy to get. While the schiit europe store is permantently out of stock, the official italian reseller (proaudioitalia) had most of schiits DACs and AMPs in stock when I bought my gear. They do not have an online shop though, you will need to send them an email, but they deliver to the entire EU.
Jesus, how many tests do you want in a jungle of tests, hundreds per day! And all those people doing these test, have to make a living!!!! Why don't you start using your own ears, instead of depending on reviewers mixed interest results. I am in the Neteland, i I want some Schitt, which i once did, its delivered tomorrow.
Yeah their distribution channels are "Schiit", I've tried to get hold of a Schiit Mani 2 for some time now.
Topping are also nice DACs. Especially the Topping A90.
Hello Julian, thanks for your scientific measurements. I find them interesting as well as helpful.
Would the internal headphone amp on a laptop perform similarly to the PCs you tested here?
Thanks.
Great work! Im not surprised with the findings. The only reason i got an audio interface in the first place was laptop audio jack output. I used to have a budget HP laptop, the sound is audibly different compared to line out of Presonus USB 96(not the greatest, i know). As i went in further into audio, getting a SHP9500, the audio will crackle when connected to the laptop audio jack especially on highly compressed, closed to clipping songs, no such problem connected to Dac/amp. But not all laptops have problems, AFAIK the 2016 MacBook was definitely a class above other laptops of its time in audio jack output and also price
Hey, really enjoy your approach with all your reviews! It is very informative and entertaining, Keep it up. One thing I would really enjoy to see is if you ever found a way to take your analytical approach to measuring Audio Interfaces and finding a way to do so with speakers and / or headphones. I get that may tough but it would be so helpful!
Thank you for listing the RME Babyface Pro FS. I had purchased one a couple years ago to do the reverse: convert analog to digital so I could have a clean recording without PC hiss/noise. I hadn't made the connection in my mind that it was capable of the reverse, taking digital sound and converting it to analog. All I needed to do was download the PC drivers for it. You just saved me a few hundred dollars!
Julian, absolutely excellent and scientific content as usual, something that is very rarely seen on youtube, you are a reference point. Any chance to check any of the Arturia Audiofuse "professional" series? You really measured it all apart from these two popular ones.
Thanks for this Review! No matter how it turns out it is super interesting to see how they perform to get some idea what die "baselines" is.
My suggestion for future video... What makes a Mastering DAC a Mastering DAC?? The output gain?? The Freq response?? Having the fact a lot of the interfaces you review has almost linear response what's the difference vs pricey mastering DACs (lavry, benchmark, HEDD, Prism, Dangerous etc..)? It's ok to master with any of the interfaces you suggest? Thanks!
Thank you! It would be great to have test/measurements on top level audio interfaces, like UAD Apollo!
Nice video Julian.. How does the 12700k in your new Pc work for music related programs? Would be nice to have your opinion related to pc for music production or audio engineering. Cheers
12700k is more than enough for music programs. Even the 11900k falls behind the 12700k
Great video as usual. This answered a whole lot of questions I had about PC audio.
Some Gigabyte and ASUS motherboards are using ESS Sabers. I have the ROG Rampage VI Extreme Encore motherboard and it has a ESS SABRE9018Q2C DAC. The specs says it has audio clarity capable of -115dB THD and 121dB DNR. Also the audio jacks are color illuminated! It's the first time I've seen that and it's a clever touch.
Great point with the interference on on-board audio. There have been stories in my voice over group that have complained about maddening inexplicable buzzing when not using their external audio device.
Your vids have been very help full. thank you!!!
Please take a look at the Creative EA-9 soundcard.
I think that there will be same conclusion to be drawn from a product like this.
First time I've ever seen my UMC22 measured. And it is such a great thing to see!
What an amazing video! If you are interestes for a video idea: I struggled a lot with ground loops with my scarlet 4i4 and my Hs5 Monitors and was only able to kinda fix that through essentially different outlets. Haven't found a good informational video about ground loops and noise issues, so maybe you are interested to change that 😇
Hey, that's a good idea. What cables are you using to cennect the interface to you monitors? Make sure that they are TRS to get a balanced connection. With a TS plug you are likely to end up with a ground loop.
@@JulianKrause thanks for the reply! I use a balanced XLR to TRS cable, with noise most likely leaking from the USB port, since there was way less audible noise from an unplugged laptop. It was a whole thing and still is confusing :D
I learned that apparently USB is connected to mains earth/ground… i guess that influences the ground loop situation too somehow… I would also love to learn more about this topic… never really understood it deeply… 🙏
Have you tried adding a 'ground loop isolator' in line on your Line Outs? This fixed a similar issue i was having when connecting Monitors direct to my PC using unbalanced cables. Isolators are about $20 so not much investment to troubleshoot ect.
@@bigdaz7272 ehhh the cheap ones are all designed for 3.5mm and to add two more adapters just introduces so many more potential issues. Thank you though, great suggestion!
another option if you cant afford a usb dac is a simple USB audio adapter for like $10. i found that fixed my interference issues before i got my motu interface. also, from my experience, front panel usually has interference, most pc case manufacturers run the audio cables next to rgb power cables thus making the efforts of the motherboard manufacturer go to waste.
The difference in sound quality while listening to Dark Side Of The Moon is night and day when using a quality dac and decent headphones....Throw in some high quality Dank and you're off to see the wizard !!!!!
Overrated album.
@@KonicaHexanon Thats not the point....In which flew right over your head
@@MIKEx2112 Still overrated.
@@KonicaHexanon you like black boys huh?
Julian everybody i go people say theres no audible diference between FLAC and CD , could you do a test compressing a original CD and make a flac and compare both with your analysis
Given that both provide exactly the same data to the DAC and also that the data will be buffered several times and also having a not totally prone-to-jitter-design of the DAC, the comparison between CD's PCM vs. FLAC wouldn't even show measureable differences, let alone audible ones.
The very competent motherboard choiche clearly shows your experience in more than one subject.
Another great, practical review. 👍
Please consider reviewing the Behringer Flow 8.
Interesting - a very thought provoking video! I look forward to your DAC / headphone amp reviews. I'd be interested in seeing a review of the Benchmark DAC 3 HGC (if you can get hold of one)
Wouldn't mind to see such an "unagitated" review of a Benchmark DAC model here either, but I guess such products are out of scope for Julian price-wise and also returns-wise.
The outcome would most probably be that for sure, it is a pristine piece of engineering, measuring top notch, but virtually none of those improvements - may it be the advertised jitter surpression or the mostly immunity against intersample peaks - will be audible and we all wouldn't stand a blind comparison between a Benchmark DAC1/2/3 against a cheap-ass 100 dollar DAC+HPA combo, depending on the headphone I guess not even with some on-board sound output which shows how saturated the whole digital audio game has become.
Great video keep delivering on great content🌍
Hi Julian, could you review Mixer Interfaces such as Mackie Onyx 12, Tascam Model 12, Presonus 12 ARC? No one ever talks about how well the convertors, preamps and latency of such products perform, yet they seem to pack so much value compared to regular interfaces which may only offer less I/Os at the same price. Love your channel, keep up the great work!
Thank you for making this video, I cant thank you enough. 👍
I am on the verge of buying new headphones but don't have enough budget for an amp right now, thankfully I have a good motherboard, but I was unsure as if I my audio codec was good enough.
You took time an tested all this audio codecs when literally no one did that, I really love you man, now I'll just buy my headphones and wait for my amp without feeling uncomfortable, thanks!
Julian, did you set the realtek control panel for "headphones" when testing them? In my PC, setting it to heapdhones make it more powerful than setting as "front speakers". This could also change the output impedance.
Finally a video about audio, i love you!!!
Danke! Das Thema war für mich schon seit langem interessant!
Great video, please make a video about the best dac/headphone amp/mic input compact devices for gaming but also desktop devices for beginner audiophiles like Schiit Hel2 or Schiit Fulla 3
Great content! Interesting to see how far integrated audio has come! If they could improve the headphone output, mobo audio would be totally acceptable.
Maybe you should try also newer Realtek alc1220-vb or even Realtek alc4080 ??
Is there any way you could test the Behringer XR18? It's getting old but is probably still the best bang for buck audio interface/mixer you can get under 2000 Euro. The GoXLR doesn't even compare remotely.
Super interesting! Would you consider doing a similar test on Thunderbolt docks with their own built-in audio interface, like the CalDigit TS4 (i.e. the CMedia CM6533) or the Kensington SD5700T (not sure about the audio chip in this one)? I'm really curious in particular about whether the isolation from noise is better (because it's "outside the PC" and therefore isolated from the graphics card and CPU) or worse (because it's next to all that other I/O hardware like USB and DisplayPort).
You read my mind, Julian!
Thank you :3
Thank you, this topic was on my mind for a past few weeks. Happy to see your opinion 😄
Curious how you feel about the Apple USB-C to 3.5mm "adapter" DAC and how it compares specifically to built-in audio. It's a compelling price for an add-on price upgrade if it performs but I expect it has its own issues.
Your wish has been fulfilled!
@@SianaGearz Yeah, was really happy to see the video. Thanks for dropping the comment. I'd definitely wanna check it out if I hadn't seen it yet.
Me and a colleague discussed this exact thing at work today. Scary how the algorithm knows your every thought.
Bravo! Well done, sir! Great video.
Just to share, I had an emergency need to monitor a network broadcast for two days using built-in audio on two high end all-in-one PCs while a SW manufacturer worked on a driver issue that wouldn’t talk to USB output. The computers were Lenovo and Dell. The speaker was a Fostex active monitor. Reconnecting the Focusrite Scarlett interface was to put it mildly, night to day. I can barely describe how horrible the computer audio was for each machine. Extreme freq resp difference, and very high, easily audible distortion. It was so unlistenable I spent much of a day just watching meters.
Usb audio is not using onboard sound. That was the USB headsets you were using.
@@WinZard Read a little more carefully. I do know what I’m talking about.
Really interesting video. I would like to know if you have a website with those results as there is none in the description.
Also do you have a video on how you test, and if not, plz make one.
Julian, why didn't you at least test a mid-range Asus board? (such as Asus ROG Strix Z690-F Gaming) , which has ALC4080 with Savitech SV3H712 amplifier and SNR of 120db. It also powers headphones cleanly up to 600 ohm and is better than any £200 external headphone amp/dac that I've tried.
This board you have is an entry level board, so you wouldn't expect top performance from it. So this is an apples to oranges comparison. You would need to be looking at the boards with ALC4080 chips
Just in case anyone was worried about the GPU whine of one of the motherboards:
I recently had this issue. However, after switching cases, the issue is completely gone, even though I was using the rear connectors for everything.
I assume it has something to do with how the case makes contact with the IO shield and GPU IO. It's likely not actually a motherboard issue
(although ofc you won't know if this is an issue for a given case, so external audio solution would eliminate this risk)
Some mobos have built in headphone amps that can drive 600ohm headphones but it's usually a feature that has to be turned on using the proprietary software (usually realtek audio manager)
Regarding your point that some people may prefer bloated bass from their headphone output, I think it comes down to the fact that they're used to feeiling soundwaves through their body so when headphones are set loud they feel like the an accentuated bass response is closer to a normal experience of listening to music through speakers. If you EQ your headphones by ear and then compare that with the sound from your monitors it's quite likely that you will be surprised that you've dialed more bass to the latter thinking that sounded "neutral". As for on interfaces, I'm stuck with an old E-MU here and the card lacks headphone output - but has DSP effects applicable to any stage so I can even put eq and reverb to my output signal, something that almost all modern interfaces lack and it bothers me - so for headphones I use the realtek interface from my motherboard. When I built this pc that headphones output sounded weak and progressively lacking volume towards the lower frequencies, but then a driver update came and it became louder and more or less flat. That seemed pretty weird to me.
That is what I've said all the time to my friends! Thank you!
I look forward to your DAC and amplifier videos to help make choices of these devices less of a minefield. Thank you as always for your professional and indepth testing and result reporting.
A test of the ADC / Line In / Mic In would be really interesting.
The quality seems to have improved a lot over the years.
Mind that this is like a 400€ mainboard or so, and it still has major issues like the output impedance. I actually had to get myself a headphone DAC for my Sennheiser 599SE because their sound just got wrecked by that. And its not like Im using "audiophile" equipment or anything.
With some mainboards electric interference also seems to be a problem; often not enough to hurt headphones, but screws up analogue mics. If you get something like a USB external soundcard, that can double for sound and recording, while offering more practical place to plug your audio jacks.
@@termitreter6545 This is absolutely true, but I'm just curious and the quality difference between newer and older mainboards will most likely be bigger then on the output side.
The funny thing is, that old interfaces / sound cards for recording purposes might not even better then newer on-board equipment.
Thank you, that confirms my impression. On a current high-end PC with a high-end mainboard, I can't hear any difference to the audio interface when I set the EQ of the sound card to neutral.
Absolutely need a re-do of this video comparing the Optical outs. I was previously under the assumption that optical out and usb out should provide identical performance. Recently added a Topping MX3S Class D DAC amp combo unit to my pc. The USB interface is very clearly superior to using optical. Why would this be? Isnt a digital signal supposed to be identical no matter where it is received from? Could the optical from my motherboard be sending onboard DAC's interpretation of the signal vs running straight digital via usb to the Topping?
Absolutely great!. Thanks for your valuable analysis.
The rule I go by is to Isolate the PC as much as possible from the speakers/headphones themselves.
This is to cus off any interference and buzing/humming or similar from the signal that is sent first, then amplified.
The issue is not to have 1% THD, it is to have 1% THD that then will go to another device that will boost the signal, send it to an amp, then to your speakers.
Any errors that happen early are increased with every additional item in the chain.
This is why I always use optical audio (toslink) from my PC.
That will cut any issues from the PC from carring over.
I tested a dedicated DAC (Schiit bifrost multibit) connected to my PC via toslink, then the analog signal sent to my Z-5500 and the sound was noticibly worse than just sending the optical signal to the Z-5500 and let it's integrated Dac do the job.
The Bifrost sounded fuller and had stronger and tighter bass, but there was also more unwanted sounds.
Once your brain gets used to the optical signal as source, it is VERY noticible to change to USB, coaxial or analog from the motherboard or sound card. You start hearing CPU clock cycles, electromagnetic interference.. stuff like that.
It's not that it is imposible to make the analog signal clean from the PC, its just that it is ridiculous to try (due to high cost).
It's kind of like trying to use a scented spray after you take a shit insted of just ventilating the toilet. Its possible, but the shit smell is still there, you are only trying to hide it.
This is really an insightful video. Let me add, however, it would have been further more informative if you had indicated the audio codec for each of your motherboards tested: ALC1220 for Z370 Taichi, ALC892 for P67 Pro 3, and ALC897 for MSI Pro Z-690. No wonder Z370 Taichi performed better than the other two. I'm curious about how a motherboard with ALC4080 fares against external DACs.
Now, given your analysis, it seems to me that, if you have a motherboard with a decent codec such as ALC4080, you might not need an external DAC but only a headphone amp.
it was interesting, but it would also be interesting to know how good the Line-input of motherboards if you connect a microphone preamp to it. Is it possible to get a good audio interface this way?. Once upon a time, I connected my cassette player to the line input of the motherboard for digitize a song, and it was quite high quality
Hey Julian, would it be possible for you to do a video focusing on the interference problems coming from a pc like you mentioned in this video? Im having some pretty bad whiny sounds when my gpu is under heavy load (higher frame rate, higher pitched noise). This happens on my yamaha hs7s which are connected to my pc via usb using a ur22 mkii. Do you think switching to an audio interface with a dedicated power source instead of having it be bus powered through usb could help? Cheers man, love your work!
For a clean USB output I use a separate dedicated PCIe card (Matrix Element H). It is powered through the PCIe bus but is set up not to power the 5v USB supply. The digital signal is sent to a Matrix SPDIF 2 which is powered by an external LPSU at 7v. The digital signal via AES connection goes to a pair of active monitors set for digital input. This gives a very clean sound with no discernible background noise at all.
As mention the impedance can be an issue and also, if you are trying to record any outboard gear that takes trs cables or XLR cables and trying to use an adaptor to plug straight into the 1/8 jack on the motherboard, or if you have monitors that take trs or XLR inputs and need to use an adapter for the 1/8 inch output from the motherboard you will many times lose at least some quality. It's kind of akin to car audio. You wouldn't use 12 Guage wire to connect to a pair of 12" 1000 watt rms subwoofers. Think of cables like a straw. The smaller the straw the less current can flow through it at one time. You wouldn't want to drive a pair of 100watt each monitors through the high Guage 1/8 inch splitter cable from the motherboard out if you can avoid it. Same if trying to run say an electric guitar into an integrated sound card. You can run the 1/4 inch out of the guitar into an 1/8 inch input adaptor to the integrated card. It will work. But you'll have to drive the gain so high the results won't be great. Now if you aren't recording any mics or instruments, and just want to listen to music or mix a little music here and there the adapters are ok. But for anything remotely serious or recording any outboard gear you definitely want a dedicated soundcard.
Hi Julian. I was expecting a segment on input noise if any. Am I missing something?
When recording through the built-in inputs I always experienced "system noise" in the recording which degraded the quality, and I am referring to my Windows PC and laptops. I moved to interfaces as soon as I could. *By way of explanation if it's necessary, by "system noise" I mean the low level operational sound of the system, nothing like ground loops.
Came here after Steve from HWUB said concerning the value of high-end motherboards, if it's for audio, get a different solution anyways, like a USB DAC.
Given that ASRock boasts about their "Purity Sound™4" and gold plated jacks on the Taichi and MSI is telling us they have "Audio Boost" for "studio quality audio", I expect perfection!
After watching, I have to say Steve is right. Great analysis you have done, especially showing that front vs back connector can vary from board to board and the issue with cross-talk and interference from the GPU.
Julian. A request for next time. Can you measure the microphone input as well? I wonder if I had no luck with my computers. I always use an H1 or simular recorder, still wouldn't it be nice if a hot dynamic microphone like a MOVO could be used in some cases.
No, you weren't exceptionally unlucky. Onboard mic inputs usually are low enough in noise for electret mics only, and even then microphone bias voltage can be quite noisy and spoil performance beyond that. With a dynamic mic you may be almost 20 dB worse off compared to a decent input. There's really no way around a Behringer UM2, UMC22, M-Audio M-Track Solo or an external compact mixer serving as a preamp if you need decent results with a dynamic mic.
Could board manufacturers include the extra circuitry needed for a truly low-noise mic input? Sure, but it would cost them money and turn the mic input into a single function jack, ruling out jack retasking (e.g. mic/line).
really thanks for these video. i really was been asking me the same for a couple time. i would love to see a video about the same aspect but on the microphone in, and if there are a really great difference on the adc from the motherboard and a external soundcard?
Thanks for covering the laptop audio out. Is it possible to do a investigation on audio input for recording?
Good video, I started recording in the late 90s using a Peavey console and connecting it to the stereo line input (obviously unbalanced) of a creative soundblaster sound card on a Pentium II, when some motherboards still did not have built-in audio. Low noise and acceptable quality, much better than recording on a cassette , ha. Nowadays with such cheap and good adc/dac chips it should be almost impossible for any sound card (built-in or not) to sound bad. Greetings from Argentina.
Julian, what's your recommended interface for recording and producing at home using beyerdynamics 250ohm? still motu M2?
Thank you for your time. A bit over my head, but I got the main idea. :)
Julian ...get out of here, there was only one response line on at least a couple of those charts ..what are you playing at ;p
Thanks so much for all your content, it's super helpful!
I appreciate the healthy serving of scepticism on display here.
Have you tried any of the Intel HD integrated interfaces (aka, "azalia" chipset)?
Could be similar to what you've already measured. My pc has an azalia that uses the ALC1150 codec...
I think most will be pretty happy with their OB audio, however my motherboard came with a very nasty one that I never had such a bad audio quality, basically I can only go to around 50% max volume until scratches start destroying everything so I went for a PCIe soundcard and have always been so much better, specially in bass for the headphones, it can make them to go subwoofer and break the speakers on some 😎
you are my hero, omg i didn't even know this kind of testing existed, and picking up a z690 is driving me crazy (msi is the best budget but has no digital out, so I was looking for an usb audio card with optical out, without falling into the +100$ yet apple dongle is only for 3.5mm jacks, etc, many other combinations/setups down the rabbit hole of audiophiles/min maxers in pcmasterrace etc... too much electric lingo mixed with microchip/latest data, then the whole question of "audiophiles can fall for snake oil/ spend 300$ for diminishing returns" beyond that 50$ a gamer would spend (but he won't even tell in the first place audio quality changes). Holy fuck dont even get me started on having the idea "split the HDMI from the video out of my 3060 ti, and drive that shit into a hub/converter/home theatre", and then the first qquestion arises, on what does the nvidia "high def audio" out depend, another rabbit hole on the sellers of the nvidia microchip that is essambled in my case by MSI model x year x, or is it all depending on the chip, the same that need so much cooling, and it's not obvious because realtec has a separate chip in motherboard.. omg go figure the GA104 printed paths and what not... This is truly taxing me and i havent even start building my PC. thx for alleviating my searing stress lol
I wish there would be a better audichip from a modern mainboard. The z690 has the same chip as my 90€ b450 from 2019 (ALC897), its not bad but it has definitely more unwanted noise (Correct term would be higher noisefloor ? Sorry, IT guy here not a Audio Engineer) in recordings and a overwall "rougher" sound from headphones aswell in comparison with a cheap audio interface. And it was blind testet with 3 of my friends ^^
The newer ones like a ALC1220 or ALC4080 are well more isolated and have way better specs overall.
But it also depends on how much is going on on your Mainboard aka interference. How many devices are connected (espacially the difference from used lanes (CPU or Chipset)), pci-e 3,4 or 5, how many drives are build in, build quality of the pcb and the corrosponding lanes and their isolation etc.
But i guess we cant justify a purchase of a mainboard just for testing the audio :D
you’re a sound-card whisperer .. thank you for the effort ..
Dear Julian! Would you be so kind to do a review about Tascam 208i interface? I think that's an interesting one about its prize!
Thank you for your work!
There's other reasons why you may want to avoid onboard audio. In my case, on top of noticing noise trough high end speakers, I noticed that positional audio in games was completely off when compared to a dedicated sound card (both an old Sound Blaster X-Fi and a more recent Sound Blaster Z)
Great video as usual!
is that fixed by having just an amp though? im getting an amp but trying to figure out if a dac would be all that helpful with this motherboard model after already connecting an amp
What is not commonly known is that some motherboards are closer to more 'proper' DACs, the Asrock in the video has uses an unnamed chipset with a 120db SNR which is pretty good compared to most lower end sound chips in other boards.
Asus' Crosshair X570 series uses an ESS DAC (Sabre), and can drive some headphones pretty decently.
However, these tend to have dedicated rear outputs, so the performance of their front output (which is connecting the case front output to the motherboard) will always be lower than the rear output.
oh thanks for that information
Super interesting thanks for sharing! I wonder if you would be interested in doing similar video with a couple of smart phones, I often run my HD600s off my old moto G4 and while I haven't done a proper AB test, I don't feel like there are any significant differences jumping out at me when compared to my interface. The output level is also not an issue, I usually run them at below half volume, despite the fact they are 300 ohm headphones.
Hi Julian, what audio interface do you recommend for under $300? I want something to push my sm7b. Thanks!
I bought MOTU M2 specifically for my guitar but I use it as my main audio output for gaming, music etc and never looked back. Sound cards are getting better and have some interesting features, but if you really care about quality, switching to interface is no brainer.
Cool.
Thank you for making this. This explains some behavior I've been seeing.
Honestly, a lot of past hardware used for hit records is way below current high end motherboard audio solutions. I currently have a motherboard with ALC 1220 dual dac and headphone amplifier with automatic impedance sensing, and its audio quality is certainly good enough for music making and loud enough for any headphones,which it has over your Taichi moterboard, admittedly a huge difference, along with dual dac. I do however use my external audio interface as it is so nice to have a physical volume control. But apart from the asio drivers, that's about all the difference.
What motherboard do you have?